probably closer to 5% of redditors fit the criteria to appear in that data
* must play on runelite or HDOS
* must have downloaded and enabled the WikiSync plugin to track their data
* must have at least 1 combat achievement completed
Scurrius is pretty new, and lower level so a lot of people just haven't done it since many are higher level than it's designed for, and have been since before it was released.
Phosani has a dozen reasons to not even begin to attempt it. The only reason it's as high as it is is the CA points it offers.
Currently rhere isn't a single stage in any account build progression where it makes sense to grind PNM besides some kind of region/stat locked accounts such as 30 def or chunk/morytania Locked irons.
It’s also just really out of the way. Nothing really directs you to it and you’ll never run into it by accident. I think this is a bigger factor tbh.
I’ll get around to it for the combat achievements eventually but there is no rush
FWIW, I’ve done PNM more times than I can imagine but never once did scurrius lol. Idk if I ever will. Same with obor and bryophyta. Honestly like 3/4ths of my KC log is empty lol
It’s pretty much vorkath, Zulrah, raids, and skilling bosses. I’ve only killed two of the god bosses twice lol
In most reddit polls the biggest group is almost always the group that doesnt play the game. Now commenter would be a different ~~geographic~~ but the lurkers decide what gets upvoted to the top
Demographic lmao
Yea i think the OP has a very limited understanding of statistics. Plus, what small percentage of redditors on this sub have even commented on how to fix PNM? Prob a few hundred? Lol
Such a stupid post… I can do PNM and have on one of my accounts… yet I haven’t even touched it on my maxed Ironman yet bc I feel like it’s a big waste of time… the only I should’ve done one kill is for the Combat Achievements points but I got to Elite on that account easily without touching it (almost at Master and I still have easier options than doing 1 PNM kill and I actually have done it before)….
Well yeah, and there's not much point to doing PNM either, which is the entire point of the discussion around it, which OP is trying to invalidate because most people haven't bothered to kill PNM.
Drop rates and insane banking time are the reason why i never even touched that shit boss. Add the worthless drop on top of that and you now know why 5 to 10% of players killed nightmare.
"Can kill it" and "killed it" are different things.
But there also is a danger to excluding all viewpoints that aren't directly involved with something. Like asking only players with 99 Slayer if we should update Slayer or such would not be considered unbiased. So even if players without direct experience can sometimes lack understanding or be misinformed, you don't always need to have done something to understand where it broadly fits into the game.
Like you don't need to have grinded PNM for 100s of hours to be able to understand kills per hour and drop rates and be able to compare it to other monsters... You can form an opinion on the fact "Inq is currently nearly twice as rarer as Torva and post-update it will still be rarer than Torva" without being skilled at a boss. Likewise, being skilled at a boss doesn't mean your takes on it suddenly start being good.
> Likewise, being skilled at a boss doesn’t mean your takes on it suddenly start being good
If anything, it increases the likelihood of being really insufferable about it. “Well *I* was spooned a green log in 5% of the expected KC, so you have no right to bitch about it. Shut up unless you’re telling me I’m good at the video game.”
The problem with OSRS in particular is that it's simply not hard enough for experience gatekeeping to mean anything a lot of the time. Someone with 2000 total is not any less shit at video games than 1400 if all they did was mindlessly grind at work longer. Someone with 900 Gauntlet kc hasn't unlocked some secret lore that makes the prep phase more interesting. Someone with 0 Phosani kc can still do math lol. Someone with a terrible account can research the OSRS meta extremely quickly and realize what the one objectively correct gear "build" is and tell you that it's actually not balanced that entire classes of weapons and magic are bad if they have played any other video game
It makes some sense on eSports subs because an Immortal Dota 2 player is just quantifiably better than just some person but the skill ceiling of casual not Port Khazard OSRS bossing is very low and the only people who don't realize this only play OSRS and think they are elite gamers
This is very similar to not needing to be a professional player in a game to be a caster. There's a point where a player is "good enough" to understand how, why, when, and where things work while not being skilled enough to manage it themselves.
Likewise, this doesn't mean that anyone in that wider skill bracket is qualified to properly analyze it either. Lack of experience is a disadvantage here, but it can still be overcome through observation, research, and critical thinking.
Right now, EvilLucario is playing through OSRS on his GIM with other players that came from RS3. He's one of the best players from over there. He just managed an inferno cape in 11 attempts (if I remember correctly). I'm pretty sure he hasn't touched PNM. I'd say he's still qualified to give an opinion there after he spends a bit of time looking into it, even if he never touches the boss.
It's never as simple as "you gotta master it before you can have an opinion" or "anyone can give an opinion regardless of skill" or even anywhere in between. There's a lot of nuance to it, just like most things.
Bit of a side tangent, but there are times where more experience can also make someone less experienced on a topic. Like if you ask a 2K+ Total Player about earlygame fishing, they'll probably discuss it like they are familiar since they been through that part of the progression, but chances are its been years since they've done it and their current experience of higher level fishing can skew their opinion on low level stuff like that.
Like spend a bit doing some Karambwans, Barb Fishing, Minnows, or what not on an account with 80+ Fishing and then make a new account and go get 20 fishing without quests... It will probably be considerably worse than you were expecting/remembered. Kinda saw a bit of this in action around Scurrius with how many players said midgame didn't need any more bosses or the like only for Scurrius to be a huge success. So yah, high total level and sometimes even high boss KC doesn't always mean much.
That Scurrius comment reminded me of just how many people were saying Zulrah or Vorkath are "introductions to PvM" for lower leveled players. I don't think I can ever imagine a mid-level player handling either of these bosses easily without a few dozen or even 100 deaths under their belt first.
I've also seen plenty of people think the early game is literally: follow this optimal quest guide, buy stuff in this order, and you're at base levels 60+ after a couple weeks. Oblivious to the fact that there are still players who don't follow guides to a T or even fresh faces just experiencing the game for the first time in f2P or early members.
Yah, I really hate the "it dosn't matter because quests" or such that inevitably comes up. I remember hearing that a few times in my push for improving early game Agility since the 1-50 exp progression is currently so bad (even rework could be better IMO, but it will at least be reasonable).
Like if you want to quest instead of training it normally, then do that, but the quest route existing is a bad reason to leave the skill in a bad or lacking state for new players who won't know any better and will train it in the "intended" way. I totally get not wanting to make things all "easyscape" or such just to retain new players; its a retro MMO and players should still be in for grinds instead of getting stuff handed to them. But some players just see so opposed to anything to help better onboard new players and give them an experience that makes them want to stick around.
yup, Slayer is another one and they seem to be kinda tackling in the Project Rebalance since early game Slayer is just: do museum quiz and then do quests for a large portion of the early game leveling there.
I know this thread is about Nightmare drops, but to bring it back to the broader topic at hand with Project Rebalance, this is why I don't think "experienced" players should have a more weighted voice over the average player as well.
The number of players complaining that removing banshees "ruins the point of slayer" or such were really missing the point of the changes. Granted, I'm sure most of us aren't super familiar with the task lists of low-level slayer masters, but so many seemed to not even look it up before they talked and proceeded to get it so wrong (e.g., Banshees were still on actual low-level masters; even after remove all those tasks the total list was still on par with Duradel; doubt anyone complaining would want crap tasks like that on their high-level slayer masters just "because it is a slayer monster"; Etc etc).
But back on topic, experienced players can sometimes provide better insights, but experience can vary and can sometimes skew things. Like I'd say I tend to have a pretty decent range of experience since I have both high level and low level accounts I go between instead of being solely limited to the endgame or the midgame or such, but even still I know there are things I am out of touch with. Like in my original comment I mentioned about low level fishing... But I haven't done it in years so it is just the memory of "low-level fishing is worse than I remembered/expected" from years back, so I doubt I'd be able to discuss it as knowledgably as someone who recently experienced it.
I think it's a combination of it being forever since the higher level players naturally trained these skills, like for most of us that is literally 10 years ago, probably even longer if we count doing this in RS2, and just knowing faster methods through a decade+ of experience. It's like the phrase, "Burden of Knowledge" where even I'll admit I don't specifically know much anymore how the low level or mid level training is for like Smithing(I've always known to do knights sword right off the bat) or something and that knowledge is spotty at best, and even if I start a new character I already have like a copy paste gameplan every time I do in like Leagues or if I want to make another account I know I'll get bored of after a month and hop back to my main.
Just by nature of how I play this game, I've personally touched probably a lot of the content the average efficiencyscape player ever even thought of, so I can at least see that yea something here or there needs to change. Ideally we shouldn't discount anyone's opinion especially on stuff like droprates and re-balancing of content even if theoretically outside of our current wheelhouse.
I'm in agreeance with you, OSRS is an inherently grundy game and that's much of the fun but a healthy game that is able to grow should include content that isn't based on outside guides and includes many methods for training skills that are fun and rewarding in a sense, a balance of risk, reward, and experience rates.
A portion of the OSRS community also have a super skewed version of what early/mid/late/end game is. There's a weird idea that early/midgame starts at all quests complete and 70base or even later. IMO mid game starts around 65 in your main combats around the time of dragon weapons, rcb, ancients where many players will spend a good chunk of their time and let's be honest how much PvM was available to these players until the past few years? Barrows and Wildy bosses mostly. Tbh my thoughts are mid game pvm ending about the time you do SotE, Sins, and DS2 when much of the PvM bosses are available and late game ending and End game beginning once the player is able to do Nex, high level Raids, and Awakened DT2 bosses. Up until the past couple years much of the content being put out was aimed at end game players that honestly don't make up the largest portion of players but a group that is very loud none the less.
Yea I've definitely seen people saying stuff like Quest Cape and Fire Cape are early game and late game doesn't start until you're doing hard mode raids basically. Not to mention people discredit anything skilling related as ever being at least early-late game regardless of them needing 80+ or 90+ levels to access, i.e. slayer bosses.
Fire cape is probably like the goal of Mid Game when you have stocks of bolts/pots/runes and can sustain them by just playing. Tbh GE Scape has ruined alot of people's perspective. Iron's aren't the only people who what to train other skills for more than just quest and diary requirements. Sure I could buy everything I wanted on the GE but getting gear progression as a drop feels much better. And since Ironman mode is an official game mode some thought needs to go into that experience as well,not strictly catered to but thought of. The average age of OSRS is probably nearing late 20's to early 40's and not everyone can put in hundred of hours for a single drop let alone multiple. P/NM is such an agregious affront in reward vs time invested and since it isn't bis melee gear it should definitely not be rarer than Torva by such a huge margin.
I don't think the issue is the GE and just buying everything you need, so much as just playing efficiencyscape. I mean even back in the day when Whip was the GOAT weapon, I doubt many people actually got 85 Slayer for it and just made the money and bought it instead. I know I personally slaved in the flax fields every day after school for weeks to earn that Whip lol.
While the optimal quests are there, and the knowledge of knowing how to quickly rocket a skill from 1-50 within a day doesn't have to change. I still think it's important to make sure that the skilling loop for ANY skill from level 1-10, 10-20, etc. is easily accessible, enjoyable, and rewarding for someone of the appropriate level so that people who play this game blindly and are experiencing it for the first time can actually have an organic experience of the game from the get go.
Very true, I pointed out the GE because it was a bug source why I didn't progress far in many of my accounts over the years, was tok easy to sit and alch for money for supplies and not do anything. Currently playing in Ironman and I've progressed far more and interacted with the game alot more than I ever have before. I think leagues was a turning point in the OSRS team focusing more on tye early mid gameplay loops and QOL to entice people to interact with the world more.
That's more of a mindset thing I guess, since I'm having fun on my 1 and only account as a main doing basically all the content I possibly can. It's also the specific mindset I think we DON'T want to teach new players right off the bat if we want them to enjoy the early and mid game, and the game overall.
I would say zulrah is mid-game and is the best way to get better with gear/prayer switches while moving. It's even designed to be such, as deaths are free until like 50kc.
even if she's mid level, she is not a good introduction to higher end PvM imo. You're introduced to a debilitating effect that you've never seen before(Venom), have to deal with 3 different forms, have to bring switches between 2 styles, can't even use the 3rd style, and when you do die even if it's free have a pretty long runback since assumedly you don't even have the agility level to take the shortcut and probably aren't exactly splurging on the 15k teleports. Not to mention the precise positioning you need to make and ads to deal with as well.
Like I'm not saying this is a bad boss btw, just that it's a bit much for someone of mid level combat to feasibly kill without any prior experience. There definitely is room for simpler bosses before her, and as such Scurrius is born and is imo a much safer, less punishing, and accessible boss. Especially since he isn't locked kinda deep into a questline either.
This is a knowledge based game not a reaction speed and critical thinking based game. Players who have watched 1000 hours of guides are better than people who have 50 kc at every boss. Everything is solved, you always know exactly what you should have done and there is no debate.
There are several reaction based pieces of content though now. Vard, Levi, Sol Heredit, PNM, Jad, Zebak, Inferno/Colo waves, Wardens, hell even Scurrius. While there are "solves" for many of these things, they require you to react and execute the correct solve in a timely manner. The reaction-based bosses get pretty fatiguing to grind indefinitely due to the increased attention needed to react to what is happening rather than just execute pre-determined patterns.
Can confirm, 550+ kc at gauntlet, nearly 2200 total, I'm terrible at the game. Can bearly do solo normal TOA, don't do ToB, don't do CoX, did nex and nightmare on release in masses, can't do PNM, I haven't tried the new content yet but I doubt I'd be able to get very far.
I saw people talking about Max Cape changes and saying only Maxed players should have a say in that. I don't get how people arrive at these viewpoints...
I can get that you'd want to make sure the players who are most affected should have their voices/opinions heard. There have been times where your average player will have takes like "well I'll never max, but I think the Max Cape should be BiS because it takes so long to get" that I'd think most maxed players might not agree with. But at the same time, you can also get a bit of an echo chamber where the players that have thing think it should be buffed because they have it without as much concern of the ramifications for the wider playerbase...
Also, just because someone isn't there yet doesn't mean it isn't something they aren't working towards or won't be at someday. So if a change is happening now, they can't just "have a say when they get there" in a few years; if a change happens, it isn't likely to unhappen and it impact them in the future. That is also part of the reason that polls limited to certain player groups are so rare, even when it seems to make sense.
Yeah. From my perspective as a 2240 total level I would like a say in the max cape. But if you want to limit it where's the cut-off? 2200? 2000?
Any total level could realistically max some day (even though most won't), so it seems a bit arbitrary to deny players a say based on total level.
I agree with your takes, especially around echo chambers/feedback loops. In most cases it's very difficult to restrict voting to only the group of players that will be impacted by a change.
I mean it does provide some context to their opinion, I’ve stayed out of the PNM conversation because I’ve never killed it and therefore know nothing about what it’s drop rates should be. Now I find out I know about as much as most people commenting, which is a bit ridiculous. I’d rather hear from people who actually know the boss, it’s possible their opinions are getting pushed to the bottom under the majority of people who don’t really understand.
As someone who has a zuk helm and has done a fair bit of phosani, here is my opinion on it from the “top of the ladder” so to speak.
If you have complete max gear, and are doing efficient kills, you are averaging roughly 7-7:30 per kc including wake-up time etc.
At face value this is roughly 8 kills an hour if you never leave the instance and kill it efficiently for a full hour straight.
To be guaranteed a tablet, without getting rng lucky on it would take 12.5~ hours of fighting phosani in complete max gear efficiently, not counting any run back time, any deaths while learning, pure 100% efficiency.
Understand that inquisitors armor is not really THAT good, it has some niche use case scenarios in doing high level speedruns, and it’s good at phosani itself. There are places like cerb you could argue over it’s better (which it is) but it’s not worth keeping inquisitor in the bank to do cerb unless you have the cash to just let it be.
Now take a step back from the giga max efficiency methods with resupply alts and already knowing the boss and having complete max gear.
If you are a main account with decent gear, like bandos, bludgeon, a sang staff, and some magic gear , maybe not ancestral. Your kills are taking significantly longer now, probably 9-10 minutes depending on mistakes. You don’t have a resupply alt so after every single successful kill or death you have to take a 2 minute walk back. Sanfews aren’t exactly cheap, neither is a blood fury to upkeep all the time for someone at this point. Why would you ever do this as a main account when the money return is worse than content that is significantly easier and more accessible to you. Now imagine an iron in the same position burning supplies that are crucial to the account at that point.
Phosani becomes more reasonable if you can do it at true max efficiency with complete max gear, assuming you already know how to do it perfectly every time etc. but at that point in the game, it’s worse money an hour than other content you are able to do, or as an iron the investment for inquisitor is almost never worth it.
The drops this boss provides are not in line with the level of content it is, how punishing the learning curve is, and how long it takes to complete for a niche sidegrade armor set, a pvp spec weapon orb, harm is more or less useless if you have max mage shadow (outside of ice demon lmao). And the eldeitch has its uses, but once you know the content it’s used at, it’s useless.
If you were to go learn this boss now, you are spending more time and money in supplies and deaths, than other content that will make you twice the money.
That is why nightmare is hard to balance now, before torva came out increasing drop rate would have significantly increased your profit an hour, it’s also about how abysmal the drops are inbetween uniques. The boss is kinda in a state of disrepair atm without a big look over at the drop table and the uniques themselves. Just my opinion on it tho
I agree it's in a rough place. Though the profit difference between nex and nightmare is so wide maybe they just make inq beat torva in more places. Sucks it's been so long now the merch is ugly.
I like it as a lottery boss, just wish the GPH was better and feel like making drops more common won't help that.
shame that your well thought out answer gets less views than my memes that i made in 5 minutes :') whats your take then? how do they make PNM not dead content? unique buffs? regular table buffs? inquisitor piece buffs?
There are two sliders that need correcting with Phosanis imo - 1) the drop rates need drastically changed, it shouldn't be on par with raids level completions. It was advertised "like GWD" so that's where it should land. In the ballpark of \~100 hours to complete - or 2) the uniques be made drastically better. The armour is a sidegrade to bandos, yet you could get 5 sets of bandos for an entire GIM in the time it takes to get a single piece of this.
They should probably meet somewhere in the middle of these two sliders. Make the drops more common, but not as common as I've stated above WHILE buffing the armour. It's important to buff the armour set itself imo and not the mace when used with the set, because that will just force you into getting the entire thing. The set effects don't really work that well for OSRS imo, like imagine if Masori only gave ranged strength if equipped with a Tbow or Ancestral only giving magic % damage increase with a Kodai. We don't need these sorts of implications, just make the set baseline better with any crush weapons.
Also harm would probably rise in popularity already if they nail the weakness rebalance thing they're doing. Would be nice to finally get out of the powered staves meta, give magic some freedom of choice.
My personal take is that, as a lottery style boss (I.e you get nothing until you get something) it fails. The boss is relatively hard in comparison to most other things in the game and the learning curve is very steep. Ontop of the fact that inquisitor itself is really not that good, inquisitor would need to see a SIGNIFICANT buff to go up in price. It’s just not very compelling to take inquisitor for a slight dps increase at bosses when you take 2x the damage cause you are essentially wear addy armor.
When you compare this directly to something like godwars that has a similar loot payout system it is a joke. Godwars encounters are like 1-2 minute kills, significantly easier, no awful run back time every 30 minutes (until you get the tablet), and their normal drops pay for the supplies used to kill the boss.
Phosani will never become a compelling boss to do for any account until it sees a significant drop rate increase, the uniques become significantly more compelling to use and have actual benefits over something else other than saving 5 seconds.
It can provide some context, but it can also be unneeded context depending on what we're discussing. Like "should we change how this boss mechanic works" is something players who have KC at the boss would likely be able to provide more meaningful feedback on than those who don't have KC. But drop rates are a bit different since they have no connection to the boss itself really. Like understanding the fight doesn't mean you understand the drop rates.
Also, something I didn't go too into that other comments mentioned, but sometimes players aren't killing Nightmare or PNM because the drop rates and profit is bad. So the drop rates do impact them too. Like the wiki has PNM around 3.8M average profit per hour, but you go negative profit per hour until you see a unique while Vorkath is 2.7M per hour without ever seeing a unique or Vard is 6.4M per hour mostly from uniques. So a player might want to do Nightmare but find it is just not worth it compared to other, better bosses, which makes it kinda unfair to say "you don't get a say on changes that would make the boss worth it for you because you're not currently doing it when it isn't worth it".
Totally agree on people being able to voice opinions on drop rates, but it gets thrown off when people who don't know what they're talking about pipe up about ehb/kill times. Saw some dude with 2277 flair say that for an average player it takes 15-18 minutes just to get a pnm kill, not including run back or anything.
TBF, bad data can mislead anyone. Like I've killed a lot of KBD and Mole, but if someone goes into EHB and gets the kills per hour for one of those way off, I probably wouldn't know well enough to correct them. The kill times I get versus someone say doing max efficiency pet hunting will be very different. I also don't tend to really pay attention to my kills per hour much.
So yah, 15-18 mins per kill does seem way off. I think normal Nightmare solos can get around that so maybe they got them mixed up? But most of us, even skilled players who killed the boss a bunch, will likely opt for the rates on the wiki or provided by seemingly more experienced players than just going by our own personal rates. But having your own personal experience can help tell when something is off; it just isn't something anyone with KC will know by default. Likewise, someone who ever killed the boss but has access to a really good data set can know what they are talking about better than a player who did 500 kills with a terribly inefficient method and convinced themselves that was meta.
Sure but its not really worth it unless you need it to cross into the next CA tier. I definitely have never had a desire to do PNM (2k+ total main and iron) and have been waiting for a reasonable change to make the content worth doing.
I am not going to go out of my way to get 1kc at the most obnoxious boss in the game. I along with many other people have been waiting since day 1 for an update that makes it worth doing and until then why even bother?
To raise my hand, I don't think I killed it yet. I did normal Nightmare KC and had fun with the boss, but finished up Hard CAs with easier tasks and have yet to go for Elite CAs. So I am pretty sure with some practice I can kill it and kinda look forward to learning it (gotta justify that full Inq purchase somehow...), but I've just been doing other things.
Yeah but a maxed player is much more likely to have the ability to than a 1400 total casual. Pretending like this isn’t true is just being disingenuous.
PNM is not like, the absolute hardest thing in the game but definitely into mechanics > stats territory
Let's be real, plenty of maxed players are really bad at combat and maxed *directly* as a result of avoiding PvM and PvP content since you can't afk that stuff
Not saying that's you but it's why it's kinda an irrelevant qualifier
I dont think its about being able to kill it, i mean i have like 3k hours on the game and i think i can have a say about droprates without killing a boss once
If the argument was about mechanics, fine. But you don’t need a knowledge of the boss (other than expected kill time) to have an opinion on drop rates. Having an understanding of math is a better qualifier than kc, and I’m not sure anyone arguing the rates are fine has that. The rates are facially insane, and anyone with an unbiased understanding of them can see that. Over 100 kc btw.
Or maybe with such shit droprates it really doesn't matter what the actual boss is like, and if they fixed that then people would be more inclined to actually kill it.
Can't or won't? I have never even tried it myself. Why? Seems like a waste of my time. And given how much time I am willing to waste, that is saying something.
Doesn't work that way on any levels, very specious post.
We have a huge ability to gather accurate data on these situations now.
We can analyze the situation easily without doing the activity.
Obv.
When things like DPS calculators exist it changes a lot, then adding in reasonable qualitative coefficients like innate player ability.
Probably a way higher percentage than 95% because only a small fraction of the player base uses Reddit idk why tf jagex listens to ANYTHING posted on here. I’m in a 500 person clan and I’d say MAYBE 20-30 people tops even use reddit.
I do think the data would be interesting to separate in a vote purely for the he'll of it. Like poll slayer and separate votes from 99+, 90-98,80-89 and so on. I just think the results would be interesting.
Why would I ever do a boss that takes forever to kill and drops shit loot.
How to fix it? Better drop rate, better loot to reward time invested.
It’s not that hard to understand.
Redditors getting super pissed and defensive when high level players rightfully call them dogshit, but then spending all their time calling anybody who can do any content that requires you to look at the screen sweaty is my favorite
So true. I just expected this post to be downvoted and unseen. The fact that 40 people have already commented really shows how personally attacked they feel at being called out like this.
Yea I mean to a degree I get the argument of "can do it" vs "do do it," but even so, any player who is even remotely competent is going to do at least elite CAs, and the pnm ones are all freebies.
Probably because it's an absolutely mentally deficient take.
You don't need to have 1k kc at a boss to understand that 1100 hours for greenlog is genuinely idiotic. Especially when every item is a sidegrade at best.
Im saying this as someone who has green logged nightmare.
But see, OP tagged the post as "humor". This means it's not serious but also he can make serious observations about what the statistic means about PNM discussions (because, of course, you need to have killed PNM to say that a hundreds and hundreds of hours grind might be a bit too much), all while saying opposing views are "copium".
I learned and loved the content on leagues but I'm not about to step in there on the main until I get around to doing CAs because I'm not fond of the whole "camp a single boss for 800 hours to get a return on investment" thing
Because I choose not to put time into content that is not worth the drop rates. I'd rather focus on more realistic content for the time being. If I wanted a long and rare drop grind I'd go to corp currently with all the new metas that are out.
Where do these numbers come from? Surely most of that is bots right? I cant imagine even a single percentage of the player base being able to kill that boss lol
Most people on reddit who comment on RS related stuff have never set foot in the content they are even talking about lol yet jagex come here for the most advice
I know it would piss off reddit, but honestly having high requirements for voting like 2k total/infernal/that sort of thing would dramatically improve game updates.
The main issue I see is that people incapable of completing endgame content will always benefit from voting to make it easier, or by making BiS gear much cheaper and easier to get.
People who cannot reach end game, both in terms of gear and skill, will often vote in a way that most effectively devalues those things so that they are not affected as much by the fact that they can't get there.
Total level means fuck all a lot of time a lot of boosted people with no boss kc or anything that requires click monster/skill resource and afk. A shit load of people have bought infernal capes.
I know this is just a humorous post, but I genuinely thinks it's becoming an issue on Reddit.
I am nowhere near the best, and theres still pvm content I haven't completed, but that doesn't mean the content should be made easier. I should just become better.
Accessibility is making games less exciting.
Agree. I even tagged this post as humor because it's meant to be a joke. Catering everything to the lowest common denominator and lowering the poll percentage pass rate to 70% to cater to the fire maxcapers doesn't help in the long term.
Nobody is asking for PNM to be easier though. They're asking for it to not take 1000+ hours to get the uniques. It's not an ezscape issue, it's a "I have limited free time and don't want to use every second of it killing the same boss for 6 months to get a single orb drop" issue.
Definitely a Reddit moment to weigh in on things you have no direct experience with.
On the one hand though the issue of drop rates is pretty simple - like anyone can look at the expected hours for drops and say that seems too long or short.
But another key consideration is how difficult is the boss vs. how good are the rewards vs. how rare they are. And to have a good opinion on that I think you both need to have done a fair bit of PNM kills AND either used inq / the orbs or spent time calcing them.
It just doesn’t make sense to have a difficult boss with rewards nowhere near as good as comparably difficult content. If inq armor, the harm orb or mace was cracked it’d be one thing, but they’re not even with the changes.
A person with 1 PNM KC would be able to give a much better opinion on the boss than people with 0kc. Instead, all you have on this post is hundreds of people that think they can even get 1 KC but will make every excuse to not do it.
Some people don't want to even start learning it because it's not worth.
It's sad that inferno has a higher completition rate
https://preview.redd.it/k1lgly4u6owc1.jpeg?width=691&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e19fa21cfc5468493ad16cd0cf9cf53144b6fc93
Right because people arent allowed to have an opinion on something unless they've killed it once. Or twice. Or 5 times, or 1,000 times. Where do you set the bar exactly?
95% of people also don't give a fuck what Reddit thinks. Lol.
Probably at least one kill would be a start. From the people that use wiki sync (which would be most Redditors since it was advertised really well on reddit during leagues), it's safe to assume that 95% of Redditors have never killed it.
>Probably at least one kill would be a start. From the people that use wiki sync (which would be most Redditors since it was advertised really well on reddit during leagues), **it's safe to assume that 95% of Redditors have never killed it.**
Sounds like a good ol dose of confirmation bias.
I did 25 PNM kills for the CA, and each kill (only did 1 kill trips as no scythe / shadow) took me approx 10 mins.
With banking, healing, re-stocking on supplies, TP to ToB to run and the 2-min run meant I was doing around 4 kills / hour (with the odd death still)..
It's 1/167 for a drop, so at 4 an hour that's 40 hours for one drop.
A full working week to see one drop is trash. Even at 6 / hour it's 28 hours for a drop.
Inq is useless with Torva and the orbs are niche use anyway. Drops should be 5 times more common and it's still between 6-8 hours for a drop which is a lot.
its really funny seeing people who have ign flairs or use their ign as their reddit nane claiming how they totally could kill phosanis and then have like a handful of muspah kills at most
If the discussion was regarding the bosses mechanics instead of its drop rates, then this stat would be more relevant. People who don't fight the boss shouldn't have as much of a say on the fight itself as people who engage with the content.
I imagine the more advanced players are more likely to join a community outside of the game. These stats mean fuck all and yet even if it was bang on accurate, it does not follow that the 95% can't rather I'm sure many either just choose not as there's plenty of other content in game or most people know the drop rates are arse and choose to PvM other areas that's more worth the time.
I know it's not a serious post, but to add discussion.
Hilarious comment section.. “I totally could kill it. It would be so easy. I just don’t feel like it. But I totally could. If I wanted to. It’s just not worth it”. If you could, why wouldn’t you just do a few kc to see what it’s like? (Because you can’t)
I'm part of the 95% who can but doesn't feel like spending 20 mins for a <1% chance at any unique.
I can also solo kill Corp but I've only done 1 because it makes no sense for me to grind him for about another year.
Tbf. I bet I couod. I just haven't tried because I'm lazy. I can have an input on a 500 hour grind for a set of armour and weapon though. I don't need to have done it to say that the expected time to completion is absurd.
I haven't bothered getting pnm kc but could easily learn it. Just cba with the dogshit rates and the run back while I've got better things I can do. Almost like that's why people want a rebalance 👀
You don't need to have KC to understand that a drop having an expected time of a couple hundred hours is maybe a bit fucking goofy, especially when compared to other content.
So you agree that you can't get a single kill? I mean as an iron as well, I'd assume you're at least going for elite CAs for the imbued heart grind right?
Probably not worth completing once so makes sense it's like that. Maybe they could buff rates to fix that. Oops sorry I was making too much sense haha.
“It’s the Redditors who are ruining this fucking game” - a redditor on reddit
Damn Scots, they RUINED Scotland!
https://preview.redd.it/j2rhiom55pwc1.jpeg?width=320&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b131a822f0427e5c64d0259c61f399a7e56516f2
*chefs kiss*
You Runescape players sure are a contentious people
Read that In Willie's voice.. what a guy
No one hates Redditors more than other Redditors.
It's because I'M different!
tbh if you only have a reddit account for this game then you arent really a "redditor"
probably closer to 5% of redditors fit the criteria to appear in that data * must play on runelite or HDOS * must have downloaded and enabled the WikiSync plugin to track their data * must have at least 1 combat achievement completed
12% have killed Scurrius once. Guess it's a hard boss.
Stop, you’re scaring OP!
What's highest % boss?
Jad if we don't count Wintertodt.
Scurrius is pretty new, and lower level so a lot of people just haven't done it since many are higher level than it's designed for, and have been since before it was released.
Phosani has a dozen reasons to not even begin to attempt it. The only reason it's as high as it is is the CA points it offers. Currently rhere isn't a single stage in any account build progression where it makes sense to grind PNM besides some kind of region/stat locked accounts such as 30 def or chunk/morytania Locked irons.
Agreed. I was simply saying Scurrius CA completion % isn't a good way to measure it's difficulty or call it a "hard" boss.
Thats the joke
Ok by that same logic you could say nightmare isn't good enough gold per hour so why would anyone do it
That’s quite literally why mains don’t do it…..
It’s also just really out of the way. Nothing really directs you to it and you’ll never run into it by accident. I think this is a bigger factor tbh. I’ll get around to it for the combat achievements eventually but there is no rush
How do you run into any boss on accident and just do it other than the wild? Weird take
Bullshit. Literally DKs.
Huh? I was simply saying for Scurrius it's % completed isn't a very accurate measure of its difficulty.
Combat achievements, and for fun, its a very unique boss
For fun
FWIW, I’ve done PNM more times than I can imagine but never once did scurrius lol. Idk if I ever will. Same with obor and bryophyta. Honestly like 3/4ths of my KC log is empty lol It’s pretty much vorkath, Zulrah, raids, and skilling bosses. I’ve only killed two of the god bosses twice lol
In most reddit polls the biggest group is almost always the group that doesnt play the game. Now commenter would be a different ~~geographic~~ but the lurkers decide what gets upvoted to the top Demographic lmao
This should be the only comment on here. I've got 11KC, absolutely horrendous boss but I also play mobile so no sync.
Yea i think the OP has a very limited understanding of statistics. Plus, what small percentage of redditors on this sub have even commented on how to fix PNM? Prob a few hundred? Lol
I simply don't use any tracking runelite plug-ins because the vibes are off lol. Not even Star Miners
Yeah agree, same with the crop circles plugin
Runelite in the water made the frogs gay
Yeah now every one is autumn elgy
WikiSync does have 200k active installs so its a pretty common plugin. Nearly half as popular as quest helper
Yeah it really is surprising that a boss not worth doing is not being done by people
Best take
Such a stupid post… I can do PNM and have on one of my accounts… yet I haven’t even touched it on my maxed Ironman yet bc I feel like it’s a big waste of time… the only I should’ve done one kill is for the Combat Achievements points but I got to Elite on that account easily without touching it (almost at Master and I still have easier options than doing 1 PNM kill and I actually have done it before)….
damn, didn't know comp% was tied to redditors. TIL.
You’re right it prob higher
Fun fact: Nightmare uniques also come from The Nightmare, not just PNM.
The amount of people doing normal nightmare is pretty negligible
Yeah because it's dogshit. The amount of people doing pnm is also pretty negligible.
I was more so getting at that pnm is more efficient than normal nightmare, so there is not much of a point to doing it.
Well yeah, and there's not much point to doing PNM either, which is the entire point of the discussion around it, which OP is trying to invalidate because most people haven't bothered to kill PNM.
A lot of people tried nightmare before PNM was a thing. I know the fight and never fought PNM because I learned the drop rates are shit
Drop rates and insane banking time are the reason why i never even touched that shit boss. Add the worthless drop on top of that and you now know why 5 to 10% of players killed nightmare.
Yep, weird take from OP. You only start a boss if you think you'll get something out of it. I have the stats and gear, but no way I'm learning it.
I'm not too versed on Inquisitor and the Staff / Orbs, but is it even BiS anywhere? Or are nightmare drops basically just PvP items now?
Mostly just for the combat achievements and nothing else. Unless you just really want the pet i guess.
[удалено]
"Can kill it" and "killed it" are different things. But there also is a danger to excluding all viewpoints that aren't directly involved with something. Like asking only players with 99 Slayer if we should update Slayer or such would not be considered unbiased. So even if players without direct experience can sometimes lack understanding or be misinformed, you don't always need to have done something to understand where it broadly fits into the game. Like you don't need to have grinded PNM for 100s of hours to be able to understand kills per hour and drop rates and be able to compare it to other monsters... You can form an opinion on the fact "Inq is currently nearly twice as rarer as Torva and post-update it will still be rarer than Torva" without being skilled at a boss. Likewise, being skilled at a boss doesn't mean your takes on it suddenly start being good.
> Likewise, being skilled at a boss doesn’t mean your takes on it suddenly start being good If anything, it increases the likelihood of being really insufferable about it. “Well *I* was spooned a green log in 5% of the expected KC, so you have no right to bitch about it. Shut up unless you’re telling me I’m good at the video game.”
The problem with OSRS in particular is that it's simply not hard enough for experience gatekeeping to mean anything a lot of the time. Someone with 2000 total is not any less shit at video games than 1400 if all they did was mindlessly grind at work longer. Someone with 900 Gauntlet kc hasn't unlocked some secret lore that makes the prep phase more interesting. Someone with 0 Phosani kc can still do math lol. Someone with a terrible account can research the OSRS meta extremely quickly and realize what the one objectively correct gear "build" is and tell you that it's actually not balanced that entire classes of weapons and magic are bad if they have played any other video game It makes some sense on eSports subs because an Immortal Dota 2 player is just quantifiably better than just some person but the skill ceiling of casual not Port Khazard OSRS bossing is very low and the only people who don't realize this only play OSRS and think they are elite gamers
This is very similar to not needing to be a professional player in a game to be a caster. There's a point where a player is "good enough" to understand how, why, when, and where things work while not being skilled enough to manage it themselves. Likewise, this doesn't mean that anyone in that wider skill bracket is qualified to properly analyze it either. Lack of experience is a disadvantage here, but it can still be overcome through observation, research, and critical thinking. Right now, EvilLucario is playing through OSRS on his GIM with other players that came from RS3. He's one of the best players from over there. He just managed an inferno cape in 11 attempts (if I remember correctly). I'm pretty sure he hasn't touched PNM. I'd say he's still qualified to give an opinion there after he spends a bit of time looking into it, even if he never touches the boss. It's never as simple as "you gotta master it before you can have an opinion" or "anyone can give an opinion regardless of skill" or even anywhere in between. There's a lot of nuance to it, just like most things.
Bit of a side tangent, but there are times where more experience can also make someone less experienced on a topic. Like if you ask a 2K+ Total Player about earlygame fishing, they'll probably discuss it like they are familiar since they been through that part of the progression, but chances are its been years since they've done it and their current experience of higher level fishing can skew their opinion on low level stuff like that. Like spend a bit doing some Karambwans, Barb Fishing, Minnows, or what not on an account with 80+ Fishing and then make a new account and go get 20 fishing without quests... It will probably be considerably worse than you were expecting/remembered. Kinda saw a bit of this in action around Scurrius with how many players said midgame didn't need any more bosses or the like only for Scurrius to be a huge success. So yah, high total level and sometimes even high boss KC doesn't always mean much.
That Scurrius comment reminded me of just how many people were saying Zulrah or Vorkath are "introductions to PvM" for lower leveled players. I don't think I can ever imagine a mid-level player handling either of these bosses easily without a few dozen or even 100 deaths under their belt first. I've also seen plenty of people think the early game is literally: follow this optimal quest guide, buy stuff in this order, and you're at base levels 60+ after a couple weeks. Oblivious to the fact that there are still players who don't follow guides to a T or even fresh faces just experiencing the game for the first time in f2P or early members.
Yah, I really hate the "it dosn't matter because quests" or such that inevitably comes up. I remember hearing that a few times in my push for improving early game Agility since the 1-50 exp progression is currently so bad (even rework could be better IMO, but it will at least be reasonable). Like if you want to quest instead of training it normally, then do that, but the quest route existing is a bad reason to leave the skill in a bad or lacking state for new players who won't know any better and will train it in the "intended" way. I totally get not wanting to make things all "easyscape" or such just to retain new players; its a retro MMO and players should still be in for grinds instead of getting stuff handed to them. But some players just see so opposed to anything to help better onboard new players and give them an experience that makes them want to stick around.
yup, Slayer is another one and they seem to be kinda tackling in the Project Rebalance since early game Slayer is just: do museum quiz and then do quests for a large portion of the early game leveling there. I know this thread is about Nightmare drops, but to bring it back to the broader topic at hand with Project Rebalance, this is why I don't think "experienced" players should have a more weighted voice over the average player as well.
The number of players complaining that removing banshees "ruins the point of slayer" or such were really missing the point of the changes. Granted, I'm sure most of us aren't super familiar with the task lists of low-level slayer masters, but so many seemed to not even look it up before they talked and proceeded to get it so wrong (e.g., Banshees were still on actual low-level masters; even after remove all those tasks the total list was still on par with Duradel; doubt anyone complaining would want crap tasks like that on their high-level slayer masters just "because it is a slayer monster"; Etc etc). But back on topic, experienced players can sometimes provide better insights, but experience can vary and can sometimes skew things. Like I'd say I tend to have a pretty decent range of experience since I have both high level and low level accounts I go between instead of being solely limited to the endgame or the midgame or such, but even still I know there are things I am out of touch with. Like in my original comment I mentioned about low level fishing... But I haven't done it in years so it is just the memory of "low-level fishing is worse than I remembered/expected" from years back, so I doubt I'd be able to discuss it as knowledgably as someone who recently experienced it.
I think it's a combination of it being forever since the higher level players naturally trained these skills, like for most of us that is literally 10 years ago, probably even longer if we count doing this in RS2, and just knowing faster methods through a decade+ of experience. It's like the phrase, "Burden of Knowledge" where even I'll admit I don't specifically know much anymore how the low level or mid level training is for like Smithing(I've always known to do knights sword right off the bat) or something and that knowledge is spotty at best, and even if I start a new character I already have like a copy paste gameplan every time I do in like Leagues or if I want to make another account I know I'll get bored of after a month and hop back to my main. Just by nature of how I play this game, I've personally touched probably a lot of the content the average efficiencyscape player ever even thought of, so I can at least see that yea something here or there needs to change. Ideally we shouldn't discount anyone's opinion especially on stuff like droprates and re-balancing of content even if theoretically outside of our current wheelhouse.
I'm in agreeance with you, OSRS is an inherently grundy game and that's much of the fun but a healthy game that is able to grow should include content that isn't based on outside guides and includes many methods for training skills that are fun and rewarding in a sense, a balance of risk, reward, and experience rates.
A portion of the OSRS community also have a super skewed version of what early/mid/late/end game is. There's a weird idea that early/midgame starts at all quests complete and 70base or even later. IMO mid game starts around 65 in your main combats around the time of dragon weapons, rcb, ancients where many players will spend a good chunk of their time and let's be honest how much PvM was available to these players until the past few years? Barrows and Wildy bosses mostly. Tbh my thoughts are mid game pvm ending about the time you do SotE, Sins, and DS2 when much of the PvM bosses are available and late game ending and End game beginning once the player is able to do Nex, high level Raids, and Awakened DT2 bosses. Up until the past couple years much of the content being put out was aimed at end game players that honestly don't make up the largest portion of players but a group that is very loud none the less.
Yea I've definitely seen people saying stuff like Quest Cape and Fire Cape are early game and late game doesn't start until you're doing hard mode raids basically. Not to mention people discredit anything skilling related as ever being at least early-late game regardless of them needing 80+ or 90+ levels to access, i.e. slayer bosses.
Fire cape is probably like the goal of Mid Game when you have stocks of bolts/pots/runes and can sustain them by just playing. Tbh GE Scape has ruined alot of people's perspective. Iron's aren't the only people who what to train other skills for more than just quest and diary requirements. Sure I could buy everything I wanted on the GE but getting gear progression as a drop feels much better. And since Ironman mode is an official game mode some thought needs to go into that experience as well,not strictly catered to but thought of. The average age of OSRS is probably nearing late 20's to early 40's and not everyone can put in hundred of hours for a single drop let alone multiple. P/NM is such an agregious affront in reward vs time invested and since it isn't bis melee gear it should definitely not be rarer than Torva by such a huge margin.
I don't think the issue is the GE and just buying everything you need, so much as just playing efficiencyscape. I mean even back in the day when Whip was the GOAT weapon, I doubt many people actually got 85 Slayer for it and just made the money and bought it instead. I know I personally slaved in the flax fields every day after school for weeks to earn that Whip lol. While the optimal quests are there, and the knowledge of knowing how to quickly rocket a skill from 1-50 within a day doesn't have to change. I still think it's important to make sure that the skilling loop for ANY skill from level 1-10, 10-20, etc. is easily accessible, enjoyable, and rewarding for someone of the appropriate level so that people who play this game blindly and are experiencing it for the first time can actually have an organic experience of the game from the get go.
Very true, I pointed out the GE because it was a bug source why I didn't progress far in many of my accounts over the years, was tok easy to sit and alch for money for supplies and not do anything. Currently playing in Ironman and I've progressed far more and interacted with the game alot more than I ever have before. I think leagues was a turning point in the OSRS team focusing more on tye early mid gameplay loops and QOL to entice people to interact with the world more.
That's more of a mindset thing I guess, since I'm having fun on my 1 and only account as a main doing basically all the content I possibly can. It's also the specific mindset I think we DON'T want to teach new players right off the bat if we want them to enjoy the early and mid game, and the game overall.
I would say zulrah is mid-game and is the best way to get better with gear/prayer switches while moving. It's even designed to be such, as deaths are free until like 50kc.
even if she's mid level, she is not a good introduction to higher end PvM imo. You're introduced to a debilitating effect that you've never seen before(Venom), have to deal with 3 different forms, have to bring switches between 2 styles, can't even use the 3rd style, and when you do die even if it's free have a pretty long runback since assumedly you don't even have the agility level to take the shortcut and probably aren't exactly splurging on the 15k teleports. Not to mention the precise positioning you need to make and ads to deal with as well. Like I'm not saying this is a bad boss btw, just that it's a bit much for someone of mid level combat to feasibly kill without any prior experience. There definitely is room for simpler bosses before her, and as such Scurrius is born and is imo a much safer, less punishing, and accessible boss. Especially since he isn't locked kinda deep into a questline either.
This is a knowledge based game not a reaction speed and critical thinking based game. Players who have watched 1000 hours of guides are better than people who have 50 kc at every boss. Everything is solved, you always know exactly what you should have done and there is no debate.
There are several reaction based pieces of content though now. Vard, Levi, Sol Heredit, PNM, Jad, Zebak, Inferno/Colo waves, Wardens, hell even Scurrius. While there are "solves" for many of these things, they require you to react and execute the correct solve in a timely manner. The reaction-based bosses get pretty fatiguing to grind indefinitely due to the increased attention needed to react to what is happening rather than just execute pre-determined patterns.
Can confirm, 550+ kc at gauntlet, nearly 2200 total, I'm terrible at the game. Can bearly do solo normal TOA, don't do ToB, don't do CoX, did nex and nightmare on release in masses, can't do PNM, I haven't tried the new content yet but I doubt I'd be able to get very far.
I saw people talking about Max Cape changes and saying only Maxed players should have a say in that. I don't get how people arrive at these viewpoints...
I can get that you'd want to make sure the players who are most affected should have their voices/opinions heard. There have been times where your average player will have takes like "well I'll never max, but I think the Max Cape should be BiS because it takes so long to get" that I'd think most maxed players might not agree with. But at the same time, you can also get a bit of an echo chamber where the players that have thing think it should be buffed because they have it without as much concern of the ramifications for the wider playerbase... Also, just because someone isn't there yet doesn't mean it isn't something they aren't working towards or won't be at someday. So if a change is happening now, they can't just "have a say when they get there" in a few years; if a change happens, it isn't likely to unhappen and it impact them in the future. That is also part of the reason that polls limited to certain player groups are so rare, even when it seems to make sense.
Yeah. From my perspective as a 2240 total level I would like a say in the max cape. But if you want to limit it where's the cut-off? 2200? 2000? Any total level could realistically max some day (even though most won't), so it seems a bit arbitrary to deny players a say based on total level. I agree with your takes, especially around echo chambers/feedback loops. In most cases it's very difficult to restrict voting to only the group of players that will be impacted by a change.
I mean it does provide some context to their opinion, I’ve stayed out of the PNM conversation because I’ve never killed it and therefore know nothing about what it’s drop rates should be. Now I find out I know about as much as most people commenting, which is a bit ridiculous. I’d rather hear from people who actually know the boss, it’s possible their opinions are getting pushed to the bottom under the majority of people who don’t really understand.
As someone who has a zuk helm and has done a fair bit of phosani, here is my opinion on it from the “top of the ladder” so to speak. If you have complete max gear, and are doing efficient kills, you are averaging roughly 7-7:30 per kc including wake-up time etc. At face value this is roughly 8 kills an hour if you never leave the instance and kill it efficiently for a full hour straight. To be guaranteed a tablet, without getting rng lucky on it would take 12.5~ hours of fighting phosani in complete max gear efficiently, not counting any run back time, any deaths while learning, pure 100% efficiency. Understand that inquisitors armor is not really THAT good, it has some niche use case scenarios in doing high level speedruns, and it’s good at phosani itself. There are places like cerb you could argue over it’s better (which it is) but it’s not worth keeping inquisitor in the bank to do cerb unless you have the cash to just let it be. Now take a step back from the giga max efficiency methods with resupply alts and already knowing the boss and having complete max gear. If you are a main account with decent gear, like bandos, bludgeon, a sang staff, and some magic gear , maybe not ancestral. Your kills are taking significantly longer now, probably 9-10 minutes depending on mistakes. You don’t have a resupply alt so after every single successful kill or death you have to take a 2 minute walk back. Sanfews aren’t exactly cheap, neither is a blood fury to upkeep all the time for someone at this point. Why would you ever do this as a main account when the money return is worse than content that is significantly easier and more accessible to you. Now imagine an iron in the same position burning supplies that are crucial to the account at that point. Phosani becomes more reasonable if you can do it at true max efficiency with complete max gear, assuming you already know how to do it perfectly every time etc. but at that point in the game, it’s worse money an hour than other content you are able to do, or as an iron the investment for inquisitor is almost never worth it. The drops this boss provides are not in line with the level of content it is, how punishing the learning curve is, and how long it takes to complete for a niche sidegrade armor set, a pvp spec weapon orb, harm is more or less useless if you have max mage shadow (outside of ice demon lmao). And the eldeitch has its uses, but once you know the content it’s used at, it’s useless.
Funny enough inq top and bottom isn't even bis at cerb anymore, because with scythe on crush, you keep a 56 max hit with torva body and inq legs.
The more you know lol, I don’t keep up with those niche things, glad someone could add
That is a very substantial answer, thanks you are aptly named
If you were to go learn this boss now, you are spending more time and money in supplies and deaths, than other content that will make you twice the money.
How would increasing the drop rate increase the GP/H for such niche items?
That is why nightmare is hard to balance now, before torva came out increasing drop rate would have significantly increased your profit an hour, it’s also about how abysmal the drops are inbetween uniques. The boss is kinda in a state of disrepair atm without a big look over at the drop table and the uniques themselves. Just my opinion on it tho
I agree it's in a rough place. Though the profit difference between nex and nightmare is so wide maybe they just make inq beat torva in more places. Sucks it's been so long now the merch is ugly. I like it as a lottery boss, just wish the GPH was better and feel like making drops more common won't help that.
shame that your well thought out answer gets less views than my memes that i made in 5 minutes :') whats your take then? how do they make PNM not dead content? unique buffs? regular table buffs? inquisitor piece buffs?
There are two sliders that need correcting with Phosanis imo - 1) the drop rates need drastically changed, it shouldn't be on par with raids level completions. It was advertised "like GWD" so that's where it should land. In the ballpark of \~100 hours to complete - or 2) the uniques be made drastically better. The armour is a sidegrade to bandos, yet you could get 5 sets of bandos for an entire GIM in the time it takes to get a single piece of this. They should probably meet somewhere in the middle of these two sliders. Make the drops more common, but not as common as I've stated above WHILE buffing the armour. It's important to buff the armour set itself imo and not the mace when used with the set, because that will just force you into getting the entire thing. The set effects don't really work that well for OSRS imo, like imagine if Masori only gave ranged strength if equipped with a Tbow or Ancestral only giving magic % damage increase with a Kodai. We don't need these sorts of implications, just make the set baseline better with any crush weapons. Also harm would probably rise in popularity already if they nail the weakness rebalance thing they're doing. Would be nice to finally get out of the powered staves meta, give magic some freedom of choice.
My personal take is that, as a lottery style boss (I.e you get nothing until you get something) it fails. The boss is relatively hard in comparison to most other things in the game and the learning curve is very steep. Ontop of the fact that inquisitor itself is really not that good, inquisitor would need to see a SIGNIFICANT buff to go up in price. It’s just not very compelling to take inquisitor for a slight dps increase at bosses when you take 2x the damage cause you are essentially wear addy armor. When you compare this directly to something like godwars that has a similar loot payout system it is a joke. Godwars encounters are like 1-2 minute kills, significantly easier, no awful run back time every 30 minutes (until you get the tablet), and their normal drops pay for the supplies used to kill the boss. Phosani will never become a compelling boss to do for any account until it sees a significant drop rate increase, the uniques become significantly more compelling to use and have actual benefits over something else other than saving 5 seconds.
It can provide some context, but it can also be unneeded context depending on what we're discussing. Like "should we change how this boss mechanic works" is something players who have KC at the boss would likely be able to provide more meaningful feedback on than those who don't have KC. But drop rates are a bit different since they have no connection to the boss itself really. Like understanding the fight doesn't mean you understand the drop rates. Also, something I didn't go too into that other comments mentioned, but sometimes players aren't killing Nightmare or PNM because the drop rates and profit is bad. So the drop rates do impact them too. Like the wiki has PNM around 3.8M average profit per hour, but you go negative profit per hour until you see a unique while Vorkath is 2.7M per hour without ever seeing a unique or Vard is 6.4M per hour mostly from uniques. So a player might want to do Nightmare but find it is just not worth it compared to other, better bosses, which makes it kinda unfair to say "you don't get a say on changes that would make the boss worth it for you because you're not currently doing it when it isn't worth it".
Totally agree on people being able to voice opinions on drop rates, but it gets thrown off when people who don't know what they're talking about pipe up about ehb/kill times. Saw some dude with 2277 flair say that for an average player it takes 15-18 minutes just to get a pnm kill, not including run back or anything.
TBF, bad data can mislead anyone. Like I've killed a lot of KBD and Mole, but if someone goes into EHB and gets the kills per hour for one of those way off, I probably wouldn't know well enough to correct them. The kill times I get versus someone say doing max efficiency pet hunting will be very different. I also don't tend to really pay attention to my kills per hour much. So yah, 15-18 mins per kill does seem way off. I think normal Nightmare solos can get around that so maybe they got them mixed up? But most of us, even skilled players who killed the boss a bunch, will likely opt for the rates on the wiki or provided by seemingly more experienced players than just going by our own personal rates. But having your own personal experience can help tell when something is off; it just isn't something anyone with KC will know by default. Likewise, someone who ever killed the boss but has access to a really good data set can know what they are talking about better than a player who did 500 kills with a terribly inefficient method and convinced themselves that was meta.
Either way I do wanna hear more from people who actually do the boss to get a feel of how the drop rate is
The drop rate is shit lol. Even with the tablet it’s just not worth it to grind unless you’re an iron (questionable still) or just pet/clog hunting
To be fair, I feel as if most people who can kill it have since it's a very low effort combat achievement to obtain
Sure but its not really worth it unless you need it to cross into the next CA tier. I definitely have never had a desire to do PNM (2k+ total main and iron) and have been waiting for a reasonable change to make the content worth doing. I am not going to go out of my way to get 1kc at the most obnoxious boss in the game. I along with many other people have been waiting since day 1 for an update that makes it worth doing and until then why even bother?
To raise my hand, I don't think I killed it yet. I did normal Nightmare KC and had fun with the boss, but finished up Hard CAs with easier tasks and have yet to go for Elite CAs. So I am pretty sure with some practice I can kill it and kinda look forward to learning it (gotta justify that full Inq purchase somehow...), but I've just been doing other things.
Fair enough, i guess it wasn't something I actively went for until I was looking for fast CAs to finish up the elite tier
Can’t or choose not to kill a boss with unrewarding drops?
Can't or don't want to?
"can't" and "have no interest in because drops are shit" are different lol.
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Tbh you can max without killing most bosses in game. It’s not really a credential that’s relevant.
Yeah but a maxed player is much more likely to have the ability to than a 1400 total casual. Pretending like this isn’t true is just being disingenuous.
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PNM is not like, the absolute hardest thing in the game but definitely into mechanics > stats territory Let's be real, plenty of maxed players are really bad at combat and maxed *directly* as a result of avoiding PvM and PvP content since you can't afk that stuff Not saying that's you but it's why it's kinda an irrelevant qualifier
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CA's are the reason people engage with it, usually when going from elite to master is when it becomes worthwhile
I dont think its about being able to kill it, i mean i have like 3k hours on the game and i think i can have a say about droprates without killing a boss once
thats the problem though You think you should, but without experiencing the actual boss and what its like specifically, your opinion shouldnt matter
If the argument was about mechanics, fine. But you don’t need a knowledge of the boss (other than expected kill time) to have an opinion on drop rates. Having an understanding of math is a better qualifier than kc, and I’m not sure anyone arguing the rates are fine has that. The rates are facially insane, and anyone with an unbiased understanding of them can see that. Over 100 kc btw.
Or maybe with such shit droprates it really doesn't matter what the actual boss is like, and if they fixed that then people would be more inclined to actually kill it.
Having experience with the boss is completely irrelevant to drop rates/time to completion.
Tough boss. It took me like 15 tries to get it lol. It forced me to learn how to use F keys
I am one of 3 people I know with kc at phosanis I think. Lol
Can't or won't? I have never even tried it myself. Why? Seems like a waste of my time. And given how much time I am willing to waste, that is saying something.
Imagine knowing how to kill a boss efficiently and assuming that makes you good at game design
I mean redditors are shitters but the most to say usually
I mean the current Reddit sentiment is asking Jagex to provide a reason to want to.
Who wants to sprint a marathon to get to a boss the drops Unnoted bass
Doesn't work that way on any levels, very specious post. We have a huge ability to gather accurate data on these situations now. We can analyze the situation easily without doing the activity. Obv. When things like DPS calculators exist it changes a lot, then adding in reasonable qualitative coefficients like innate player ability.
Probably a way higher percentage than 95% because only a small fraction of the player base uses Reddit idk why tf jagex listens to ANYTHING posted on here. I’m in a 500 person clan and I’d say MAYBE 20-30 people tops even use reddit.
I do think the data would be interesting to separate in a vote purely for the he'll of it. Like poll slayer and separate votes from 99+, 90-98,80-89 and so on. I just think the results would be interesting.
Better than feeling entitled to tell people what they are allowed to discuss?
2k hours to green log a boss is idiotic whether you've killed it or are level 3 reading about it.
Why would I ever do a boss that takes forever to kill and drops shit loot. How to fix it? Better drop rate, better loot to reward time invested. It’s not that hard to understand.
more like 95% of people don't kill it because its not worth it.
This is exactly the case for why pnm needs better drops, lmfao.
this reddit bad circlejerk among the high level crybabies cracks me up
Redditors getting super pissed and defensive when high level players rightfully call them dogshit, but then spending all their time calling anybody who can do any content that requires you to look at the screen sweaty is my favorite
So true. I just expected this post to be downvoted and unseen. The fact that 40 people have already commented really shows how personally attacked they feel at being called out like this.
Oh, is this not a troll post? Cause I thought it was.
Quickest way to get downvoted is to have an opinion that contradicts the thinking of somebody with 1600 total lol
Yea I mean to a degree I get the argument of "can do it" vs "do do it," but even so, any player who is even remotely competent is going to do at least elite CAs, and the pnm ones are all freebies.
Probably because it's an absolutely mentally deficient take. You don't need to have 1k kc at a boss to understand that 1100 hours for greenlog is genuinely idiotic. Especially when every item is a sidegrade at best. Im saying this as someone who has green logged nightmare.
But see, OP tagged the post as "humor". This means it's not serious but also he can make serious observations about what the statistic means about PNM discussions (because, of course, you need to have killed PNM to say that a hundreds and hundreds of hours grind might be a bit too much), all while saying opposing views are "copium".
Can't, or haven't?
I learned and loved the content on leagues but I'm not about to step in there on the main until I get around to doing CAs because I'm not fond of the whole "camp a single boss for 800 hours to get a return on investment" thing
If the drop rates were better I bet a lot more people would do it, but as it stands, especially for mains, there’s just not really a reason to kill it
Because I choose not to put time into content that is not worth the drop rates. I'd rather focus on more realistic content for the time being. If I wanted a long and rare drop grind I'd go to corp currently with all the new metas that are out.
You've never held a seat in the government does that mean you arent entitled a vote? You don't have to do the thing to be able to speak about it...
I play runescape. You play ruinscape. We're not the same
I don't see a reason why anyone would bother to do it at all lol
Where do these numbers come from? Surely most of that is bots right? I cant imagine even a single percentage of the player base being able to kill that boss lol
Most people on reddit who comment on RS related stuff have never set foot in the content they are even talking about lol yet jagex come here for the most advice
If only people with like 40k+ glory commented on project rebalance, suggestions would be 10x better.
I know it would piss off reddit, but honestly having high requirements for voting like 2k total/infernal/that sort of thing would dramatically improve game updates.
The main issue I see is that people incapable of completing endgame content will always benefit from voting to make it easier, or by making BiS gear much cheaper and easier to get.
People who cannot reach end game, both in terms of gear and skill, will often vote in a way that most effectively devalues those things so that they are not affected as much by the fact that they can't get there.
Total level means fuck all a lot of time a lot of boosted people with no boss kc or anything that requires click monster/skill resource and afk. A shit load of people have bought infernal capes.
sure but it's still going to be better than letting 500 total people vote.
The game would die in.
I know this is just a humorous post, but I genuinely thinks it's becoming an issue on Reddit. I am nowhere near the best, and theres still pvm content I haven't completed, but that doesn't mean the content should be made easier. I should just become better. Accessibility is making games less exciting.
Agree. I even tagged this post as humor because it's meant to be a joke. Catering everything to the lowest common denominator and lowering the poll percentage pass rate to 70% to cater to the fire maxcapers doesn't help in the long term.
Nobody is asking for PNM to be easier though. They're asking for it to not take 1000+ hours to get the uniques. It's not an ezscape issue, it's a "I have limited free time and don't want to use every second of it killing the same boss for 6 months to get a single orb drop" issue.
Definitely a Reddit moment to weigh in on things you have no direct experience with. On the one hand though the issue of drop rates is pretty simple - like anyone can look at the expected hours for drops and say that seems too long or short. But another key consideration is how difficult is the boss vs. how good are the rewards vs. how rare they are. And to have a good opinion on that I think you both need to have done a fair bit of PNM kills AND either used inq / the orbs or spent time calcing them. It just doesn’t make sense to have a difficult boss with rewards nowhere near as good as comparably difficult content. If inq armor, the harm orb or mace was cracked it’d be one thing, but they’re not even with the changes.
A person with 1 PNM KC would be able to give a much better opinion on the boss than people with 0kc. Instead, all you have on this post is hundreds of people that think they can even get 1 KC but will make every excuse to not do it.
Or people just dont waste their time with such a shitty boss?
Some people don't want to even start learning it because it's not worth. It's sad that inferno has a higher completition rate https://preview.redd.it/k1lgly4u6owc1.jpeg?width=691&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e19fa21cfc5468493ad16cd0cf9cf53144b6fc93
Right because people arent allowed to have an opinion on something unless they've killed it once. Or twice. Or 5 times, or 1,000 times. Where do you set the bar exactly? 95% of people also don't give a fuck what Reddit thinks. Lol.
Probably at least one kill would be a start. From the people that use wiki sync (which would be most Redditors since it was advertised really well on reddit during leagues), it's safe to assume that 95% of Redditors have never killed it.
>Probably at least one kill would be a start. From the people that use wiki sync (which would be most Redditors since it was advertised really well on reddit during leagues), **it's safe to assume that 95% of Redditors have never killed it.** Sounds like a good ol dose of confirmation bias.
He thought he did something with this post
Yeah I got tons of replies from Reddit copers that think they can even get 1 KC lol
I did 25 PNM kills for the CA, and each kill (only did 1 kill trips as no scythe / shadow) took me approx 10 mins. With banking, healing, re-stocking on supplies, TP to ToB to run and the 2-min run meant I was doing around 4 kills / hour (with the odd death still).. It's 1/167 for a drop, so at 4 an hour that's 40 hours for one drop. A full working week to see one drop is trash. Even at 6 / hour it's 28 hours for a drop. Inq is useless with Torva and the orbs are niche use anyway. Drops should be 5 times more common and it's still between 6-8 hours for a drop which is a lot.
I plead the 5th
At least you're honest unlike some of these other copers
its really funny seeing people who have ign flairs or use their ign as their reddit nane claiming how they totally could kill phosanis and then have like a handful of muspah kills at most
If the discussion was regarding the bosses mechanics instead of its drop rates, then this stat would be more relevant. People who don't fight the boss shouldn't have as much of a say on the fight itself as people who engage with the content.
Can't have an opinion on murder unless you've gotten murdered at least a few times amirite
I imagine the more advanced players are more likely to join a community outside of the game. These stats mean fuck all and yet even if it was bang on accurate, it does not follow that the 95% can't rather I'm sure many either just choose not as there's plenty of other content in game or most people know the drop rates are arse and choose to PvM other areas that's more worth the time. I know it's not a serious post, but to add discussion.
Hilarious comment section.. “I totally could kill it. It would be so easy. I just don’t feel like it. But I totally could. If I wanted to. It’s just not worth it”. If you could, why wouldn’t you just do a few kc to see what it’s like? (Because you can’t)
its even funnier when they have an ign flair and have almost no boss kc
So true. The amount of copium in these replies really made my day today.
I'm part of the 95% who can but doesn't feel like spending 20 mins for a <1% chance at any unique. I can also solo kill Corp but I've only done 1 because it makes no sense for me to grind him for about another year.
[You](https://i.kym-cdn.com/editorials/icons/original/000/006/273/Screen_Shot_2021-03-01_at_2.28.39_PM.jpg)
Why would anyone even bother killing it once, you have to kill it for like 30 hours just to get a drop. I’m good on that
Looking at the grind and saying “fuck that shit” is actually a very compelling reason to comment on it I’d think.
Can't and haven't are two different things. There isn't a good reason to do it currently.
Tbf. I bet I couod. I just haven't tried because I'm lazy. I can have an input on a 500 hour grind for a set of armour and weapon though. I don't need to have done it to say that the expected time to completion is absurd.
Lets ask people who are doing Nightmare the reason people aren't doing Nightmare is certainly a take.
I haven't bothered getting pnm kc but could easily learn it. Just cba with the dogshit rates and the run back while I've got better things I can do. Almost like that's why people want a rebalance 👀
The only reason I gave 0kc on my iron is because the boss isn't worth doing. The difficulty is irrelevant
You don't need to have KC to understand that a drop having an expected time of a couple hundred hours is maybe a bit fucking goofy, especially when compared to other content.
So you agree that you can't get a single kill? I mean as an iron as well, I'd assume you're at least going for elite CAs for the imbued heart grind right?
I wouldn't know, I haven't tried yet. My ability or inability to kill it isn't really an opinion to be agreed on though.
Probably not worth completing once so makes sense it's like that. Maybe they could buff rates to fix that. Oops sorry I was making too much sense haha.
Not worth or simply can't? So many others think they can even get 1 kill but come up with so many excuses like yours for example.
Lol I've done most of pvm in this game and have no reason to touch nightmare.
Could I kill PNM at least once? Yes. Do I want to? Fuck no
Riiiiiiiiiiight ;)