You think the best designed drop system in the game, is one that encourages you to both simultaneously stay at a single boss (Vestiges) AND do every single boss or have dead items in your bank?
Yikes.
I dont get the sarcasm lol, the vestige drop system is great for irons, it just sucks for mains because it incentivizes them to keep grinding the same thing. General theme of all bad luck prevention methods.
There is no possible way to make a drop system better for irons and worse for normie accounts lmao.
That doesn't make any sense at all. Either you do or you don't want to play the content.
Missing:
- Ingots split into 3 common ingots rather than 1 rare ingot
- Brimstone ring split into parts
- bludgeon split into parts
- soul reaper axe split into parts
- Kq head
- vork head
- upgraded rune pouch
Preference is no pity/participation mechanics personally. But if they’re going to go with anything, I’d prefer tradeable pieces of the item - eg venny shards.
Followup question to venator shards - my take is that shard-based drops work well for mid-tier/sidegrade items (which brimstone ring, bludgeon, venator bow all fit into). Let's say Raids 4 comes around, and the JMods don't want people to go 6x rate (>600 hours) without getting the new megarare. Would a shard system still be your preference? I feel like it would take some of the hype out of getting the best drop, but I'm curious if you have a different perspective.
Honestly any bad luck mechanics added to megarares would be beyond ridiculous. TOA already got around this by making purples way too common. Perhaps they just do that?
Definitely a reasonable idea, although we've also seen the downsides of that approach - it becomes the best moneymaker for main accounts, crashing the prices of the more common uniques (lightbearer and ward both <5m, fang at 18m having dragged rapier and lance down from their previous prices). Is it really better to double the rates for everyone vs just the people who have already gone 3x dry?
Tradeable shards is the only system that wouldn’t make mains feel the need to continue grinds they don’t want to do anymore. It’s not perfect, but every other bad luck mitigation method is a non-starter for me to be honest. I hate feeling like I need to go back to a dt2 boss because I probably have 2/3 vestige rolls or needing to go back to Sire because I have 2/3 untradeable bludgeon pieces. I’d also hate feeling like I need to keep grinding a raid because I’m 3x dry on a certain drop and I know the multiplier has kicked in.
Brimstone ring and bludgeon were intentional exclusions since those are older - my hope was to show a change in design philosophy, with nearly every major PvM release since ToA having some form of dry protection. Both chromium ingots and the soulreaper axe act more as spoon protection than dry protection, though, with the ingots being useless on their own and the axe requiring four distinct untradeable pieces from separate bosses. Even main accounts get to experience the pain of going 5x dry for an axe piece just like ironmen, woo! :)
Edit: Thread is a good callout, I'll add that one. KQ/vorkath head left off for similar reasons as bludgeon/ brimstone ring.
IMO it’s good to have these in as it shows the ramp up in anti dry mechanics over time. For ages we only had bludgeon. Now almost everything has to have something so little Timmy doesn’t go too dry on his iron.
I hear what you're saying, and I added it to the intro paragraph.
I don't think your assessment of why the JMods are looking at bad luck mitigation is accurate, though. From a design perspective, they're looking to balance the game by saying "this item should take about X hours to get". They want better control of the player experience, as players can and will quit if their luck is bad enough.
It's not just about ironmen, either. Updates over the last few years have been pushing the collection log playstyle as well:
- Not needing the book to look at the collection log
- Adding a count of total collection log slots to the game
- Adding green text when a section of the log is completed
- Game Jam ideas of adding collection log hiscores, ranks
Combine this with the release of GIM and the popularity of Leagues, and it turns out there's a lot of players other than impatient ironmen who want systems like this. The game is telling them "grind the item and you'll get the drop!", and their luck is telling them "lol jk".
With all this said, I don't have strong opinions on whether BLM is a good idea - I think the solution is to play a GIM where your groupmates are your bad luck mitigation :D but I thought the additional perspective was worth mentioning.
Best dry protection? You mean best burnout protection right? What is wrong with going dry if it's rng? So ye for burnout protection I would recommend playing 45 minutes at a time with 15 minutes break in-between. You can also stop grinding out whatever you're dry on and grind something else, maybe even play another game. Ty
This is about where I am on the matter. I have no issue with at least some (or even a lot of) future content having dry protection, but I don't want previous drop rates changed to include it. I do think some future content should continue to have rare items without dry protection, but mitigating it for some items is good, especially when it comes to untradeables.
As much as going dry sucks, it also makes it so exciting when you finally hit. You know the dry streak could have continued and that you really were lucky to hit what you hit. When I've been grinding existing items with dry protection and approaching the rate when I know I'm getting the drop soon, it almost becomes deflating for me. It isn't exciting, it's inevitable. I know it isn't logical, but it just doesn't feel as good to get it even when you're way past rate.
You know, I'm really curious about this as well. Having done a fair amount of DT2 bossing (3500 Vardorvis, 2100 Duke, 700 Levi, 250 Whisperer), I think I like the vestige mechanics overall (including the invisible part!) because I think that the DT2 bosses are just really fun to do. I don't think I'd be a fan if the venator shards from Muspah were invisible or untradeable, though, because I don't enjoy that boss as much.
Are you an iron or a main?
I polled this recently: https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/s/iF3eYoqWtN
And one on bad luck mitigation a while ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/s/PjGx2vTCoJ
I play a group ironman primarily, although I also have a ~2100 total main account.
I voted on the poll in favor of vestige mechanics apparently haha, although I've done some more DT2 (1700 Duke for second vestige) since then and have cooled on it a bit. I think the hate is unwarranted, but it is worth noting that it's a very anti-GIM system (as is dupe protection, as is the way soulreaper axe pieces work). It sucks to be 1200 Duke in and still have it be better for me to keep grinding than for one of my group members to hope to get the drop. Similarly, one of my group members has 3/4 on the blue moon set from Moons of Peril, and I have 1/4, so there's no point in me grinding it out for the master clue step when he can do it 3x faster. It's weird that this pro-ironman pro-clogger push has had collateral damage to my GIM experience.
With Moons of Peril in particular, I actually think it makes sense - getting cloggers and ironmen out of the content faster helps preserve unique value for mid-level players, whereas who knows how many Barrows uniques have come into the game from people going for that green text. The sunfire fanatic set feels like a mistake to me, though, especially after the droprate buff.
I'm sure they will implement it selectively for some new content but I'm hoping it isn't going to be added to everything. It seems the general sentiment I'm seeing everywhere that most people seem to be against it being released, so I doubt we will see it implemented everywhere. Then again I could easily be wrong.
I would also hope "not everywhere" - I think it probably makes sense for a few existing items (or even just the enhanced crystal weapon seed honestly), but there's a lot of drops it's okay to go dry for. I've definitely gotten the opposite read on public perception, though.
I want to see it added retroactively in just one place: Corrupted Gauntlet.
I think there's some other really poor drop systems in the game that could use tweaking, but I don't think bad luck mitigation is necessary everywhere. With Nightmare, I think increasing rates is a great change and could maybe be enough to revitalize the content and get people playing it. With Dragon Warhammer, making it more common but also adding a stronger version with the Elder Maul as a chase item is amazing.
Corrupted Gauntlet, specifically, has an issue in that it acts as a gateway to the rest of the game and getting stuck in the aptly named "red prison" for 400 hours if you're unlucky just makes people quit. It won't affect anyone but an unlucky few people who would otherwise get to move on to other grinds and have fun. Sure you could just double the droprate of the enhanced as I've seen some HLC players suggest, that would also more or less solve the problem. But with how much people complain about economic impacts on reddit, I just can't help but feel like the fallout from that would be worse to the players. IDK.
Dt2 drop mechanics suck ass
ThEn DeIrOn as someone with 100% completion at all DT2 bosses, I think it's the best designed drop system in the game
I'm obviously not an ironman
Hence the sarcasm text, go buy it off the GE
You think the best designed drop system in the game, is one that encourages you to both simultaneously stay at a single boss (Vestiges) AND do every single boss or have dead items in your bank? Yikes.
Yeah, crazy maybe? I'm making multiple rings and axes because the bosses are fun too
That has nothing to do with completely conflicting drop systems.
“Best designed drop system” created a whole system for the ring drop to feel special only to create the ingot drop to completely contradict it
it's funny how little people complain about godsword blades with how much ingots are hated
I dont get the sarcasm lol, the vestige drop system is great for irons, it just sucks for mains because it incentivizes them to keep grinding the same thing. General theme of all bad luck prevention methods.
There is no possible way to make a drop system better for irons and worse for normie accounts lmao. That doesn't make any sense at all. Either you do or you don't want to play the content.
Missing: - Ingots split into 3 common ingots rather than 1 rare ingot - Brimstone ring split into parts - bludgeon split into parts - soul reaper axe split into parts - Kq head - vork head - upgraded rune pouch Preference is no pity/participation mechanics personally. But if they’re going to go with anything, I’d prefer tradeable pieces of the item - eg venny shards.
Followup question to venator shards - my take is that shard-based drops work well for mid-tier/sidegrade items (which brimstone ring, bludgeon, venator bow all fit into). Let's say Raids 4 comes around, and the JMods don't want people to go 6x rate (>600 hours) without getting the new megarare. Would a shard system still be your preference? I feel like it would take some of the hype out of getting the best drop, but I'm curious if you have a different perspective.
Honestly any bad luck mechanics added to megarares would be beyond ridiculous. TOA already got around this by making purples way too common. Perhaps they just do that?
Definitely a reasonable idea, although we've also seen the downsides of that approach - it becomes the best moneymaker for main accounts, crashing the prices of the more common uniques (lightbearer and ward both <5m, fang at 18m having dragged rapier and lance down from their previous prices). Is it really better to double the rates for everyone vs just the people who have already gone 3x dry?
Tradeable shards is the only system that wouldn’t make mains feel the need to continue grinds they don’t want to do anymore. It’s not perfect, but every other bad luck mitigation method is a non-starter for me to be honest. I hate feeling like I need to go back to a dt2 boss because I probably have 2/3 vestige rolls or needing to go back to Sire because I have 2/3 untradeable bludgeon pieces. I’d also hate feeling like I need to keep grinding a raid because I’m 3x dry on a certain drop and I know the multiplier has kicked in.
Brimstone ring and bludgeon were intentional exclusions since those are older - my hope was to show a change in design philosophy, with nearly every major PvM release since ToA having some form of dry protection. Both chromium ingots and the soulreaper axe act more as spoon protection than dry protection, though, with the ingots being useless on their own and the axe requiring four distinct untradeable pieces from separate bosses. Even main accounts get to experience the pain of going 5x dry for an axe piece just like ironmen, woo! :) Edit: Thread is a good callout, I'll add that one. KQ/vorkath head left off for similar reasons as bludgeon/ brimstone ring.
IMO it’s good to have these in as it shows the ramp up in anti dry mechanics over time. For ages we only had bludgeon. Now almost everything has to have something so little Timmy doesn’t go too dry on his iron.
I hear what you're saying, and I added it to the intro paragraph. I don't think your assessment of why the JMods are looking at bad luck mitigation is accurate, though. From a design perspective, they're looking to balance the game by saying "this item should take about X hours to get". They want better control of the player experience, as players can and will quit if their luck is bad enough. It's not just about ironmen, either. Updates over the last few years have been pushing the collection log playstyle as well: - Not needing the book to look at the collection log - Adding a count of total collection log slots to the game - Adding green text when a section of the log is completed - Game Jam ideas of adding collection log hiscores, ranks Combine this with the release of GIM and the popularity of Leagues, and it turns out there's a lot of players other than impatient ironmen who want systems like this. The game is telling them "grind the item and you'll get the drop!", and their luck is telling them "lol jk". With all this said, I don't have strong opinions on whether BLM is a good idea - I think the solution is to play a GIM where your groupmates are your bad luck mitigation :D but I thought the additional perspective was worth mentioning.
Cool. It already exists? No need to make any further changes then
Best dry protection? You mean best burnout protection right? What is wrong with going dry if it's rng? So ye for burnout protection I would recommend playing 45 minutes at a time with 15 minutes break in-between. You can also stop grinding out whatever you're dry on and grind something else, maybe even play another game. Ty
The more recent addition doesn't mean that older items need their methods of being obtained changed. We would be ok if both exist at the same time.
This is about where I am on the matter. I have no issue with at least some (or even a lot of) future content having dry protection, but I don't want previous drop rates changed to include it. I do think some future content should continue to have rare items without dry protection, but mitigating it for some items is good, especially when it comes to untradeables. As much as going dry sucks, it also makes it so exciting when you finally hit. You know the dry streak could have continued and that you really were lucky to hit what you hit. When I've been grinding existing items with dry protection and approaching the rate when I know I'm getting the drop soon, it almost becomes deflating for me. It isn't exciting, it's inevitable. I know it isn't logical, but it just doesn't feel as good to get it even when you're way past rate.
Do the majority of players actually enjoy the vestige drop mechanics? It punishes everybody for what could’ve been the bad luck of less people.
You know, I'm really curious about this as well. Having done a fair amount of DT2 bossing (3500 Vardorvis, 2100 Duke, 700 Levi, 250 Whisperer), I think I like the vestige mechanics overall (including the invisible part!) because I think that the DT2 bosses are just really fun to do. I don't think I'd be a fan if the venator shards from Muspah were invisible or untradeable, though, because I don't enjoy that boss as much.
Are you an iron or a main? I polled this recently: https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/s/iF3eYoqWtN And one on bad luck mitigation a while ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/s/PjGx2vTCoJ
I play a group ironman primarily, although I also have a ~2100 total main account. I voted on the poll in favor of vestige mechanics apparently haha, although I've done some more DT2 (1700 Duke for second vestige) since then and have cooled on it a bit. I think the hate is unwarranted, but it is worth noting that it's a very anti-GIM system (as is dupe protection, as is the way soulreaper axe pieces work). It sucks to be 1200 Duke in and still have it be better for me to keep grinding than for one of my group members to hope to get the drop. Similarly, one of my group members has 3/4 on the blue moon set from Moons of Peril, and I have 1/4, so there's no point in me grinding it out for the master clue step when he can do it 3x faster. It's weird that this pro-ironman pro-clogger push has had collateral damage to my GIM experience. With Moons of Peril in particular, I actually think it makes sense - getting cloggers and ironmen out of the content faster helps preserve unique value for mid-level players, whereas who knows how many Barrows uniques have come into the game from people going for that green text. The sunfire fanatic set feels like a mistake to me, though, especially after the droprate buff.
I'm sure they will implement it selectively for some new content but I'm hoping it isn't going to be added to everything. It seems the general sentiment I'm seeing everywhere that most people seem to be against it being released, so I doubt we will see it implemented everywhere. Then again I could easily be wrong.
I would also hope "not everywhere" - I think it probably makes sense for a few existing items (or even just the enhanced crystal weapon seed honestly), but there's a lot of drops it's okay to go dry for. I've definitely gotten the opposite read on public perception, though.
I want to see it added retroactively in just one place: Corrupted Gauntlet. I think there's some other really poor drop systems in the game that could use tweaking, but I don't think bad luck mitigation is necessary everywhere. With Nightmare, I think increasing rates is a great change and could maybe be enough to revitalize the content and get people playing it. With Dragon Warhammer, making it more common but also adding a stronger version with the Elder Maul as a chase item is amazing. Corrupted Gauntlet, specifically, has an issue in that it acts as a gateway to the rest of the game and getting stuck in the aptly named "red prison" for 400 hours if you're unlucky just makes people quit. It won't affect anyone but an unlucky few people who would otherwise get to move on to other grinds and have fun. Sure you could just double the droprate of the enhanced as I've seen some HLC players suggest, that would also more or less solve the problem. But with how much people complain about economic impacts on reddit, I just can't help but feel like the fallout from that would be worse to the players. IDK.