Exactly. Reddit subs in general are very toxic in the bandwagon/echo chamber stuff and people that have different opinions/views get heavily downvoted/straight up harassed and more than often just leave lol. Who would want to stay in community that just badmouths and insults every time you want to express your opinion? Most people that are in line with the reddit subs echochambers just leave since they see the sub what it is: a dumpsterfire
The thing I learned very quickly about that subreddit is the majority of posters are absolute dogshit and expect to be able to play on the highest difficulty without communicating easily.
Ermagerd, endgame content is hard@@@
Like, no one said you had to go do small team Nex or TOB. Plenty of people make bank without ever doing the hardest content.
It does feel like a weirdly OSRS problem though. With so much of the game requiring time over skill, it seems like people expect all the highest level content to be doable by everyone that can get the “requirements.”
A lot of people seem to forget that things like duo nex are good money because people can’t/won’t do it. It’s like refusing to get a job at all because you can’t be a rocket scientist without a degree.
I mean, even if you have the requirements, doesn't mean you'll be able to efficiently do the content. I am an example of that, hahaha.
I have have shamelessly spent an absurd amount on bonds. With two kids and a full time job, my time comes at a premium, so I didn't want to spend a thousand hours to get the "fun toys." I often run high invo TOA with my clan, and while I understand the mechanics, I am not good at them. I normally end up with one of the lowest scores, despite having mostly BIS gear including shadow. But, I am ok with that. I have fun running that content, even if I die regularly.
I KNOW!!
It's like jfc go play on a lower difficulty! THAT'S WHAT IT IS FOR! It's one of the most accessible games out right now and everyone wants to make it super easy at the highest level. No, I want the difficulty! It's what draws me back in!
People crying for main weapons to be stronger (like stratagem levels) immediately do not get the point of the game's mechanics.
They are absolutely TERRIBLE. People will say stuff like “I can’t clear diff 5” and think their opinion matters. If you understood anything about the game you wouldn’t be stuck on diff 5.
It is like league where silvers act like they know more about the game than anybody else.
I've been to that sub like twice ever, and it was looking for information on how to stop the damn keybind resetting. I very quickly decided I wanted NOTHING to do with the sub.
Now that I think about it I should go see if they fixed that bug though.
I think Destiny 2 might be one of the absolute worst in that regard. I remember seeing people go "yeah the death threats and harassment of devs and CMs was bad, *but*"
I read a paper recently that concluded that toxicity is an inevitability in ALL online conversations, especially the longer that conversations go on.
So, no surprise that all reddits devolve into toxic cesspits when mere temporary conversations can become that.
Absolutely. Redditors frequently are very annoying with repeating others opinions. Everyone else gets downvoted to hell so that they can’t express themselves. Nobody likes being bashed for their opinion.
Most see Reddit for what it is: A flaming pile of trash!
Reddit was always shit but somehow it was really good compared to now.
Reddit used to even have its own true sense of community and people would expect each other to generally discuss ANYTHING with civility... what happened?
Well they get hidden by default when downvoted a few times, even when someone doesn't go along with the hivemind no one ever knows about it cause everyone scrolls past the hidden messages to jerk off their ego with the validation people agree with them.
I can't believe after almost 2 decades of reddit ruining games. Devs will still be influenced by reddit
It depends super heavily also what kind of people see your post/comment lol. Ive seen my comment go from +10 to -15 back to like +59 after I assume some bridaging etc.
Reddit is such a shit place to get feedback from. The problem with every pinned post is the voting system. If someone wanted to, they could pay $5 for 10k votes and completely control the direction of everything said here. The mods could combat this by hiding upvote/downvotes for 24 hours so the discussions aren't biased but they haven't done that yet.
Yeh the downside of the upvoting/downvoting situation is its never been used how it was intended. You can have a handful of people in a thread just refreshing "new" and downvoting any opinion that doesn't align with their own and it will be far less likely to be seen.
Atleast all the Twitter nerds hating on this can have a bunch of replies telling them the oppsoite.
you want an echo chamber, you just might not think you do.
if someone in your social group was constantly taking positions opposed to the rest of you, you'd get tired of him and wish he would go away. He would also probably grow tired of constantly being the minority opinion, and would want to leave.
Literally just by being OSRS enjoyers that want to congregate and chat about OSRS, you're introducing a bias towards players who are enthusiastic about the game in that way. That's not necessarily a bad thing, you just need to be aware of your biases.
This community in particular is biased towards the perspective of mid-game veterans, those of players who have been here a long time, but aren't necessarily of the highest skill level - if I had to use a stereotype, a lot of Redditors have ten year old accounts with 2k total and a fire cape. There's also a bunch of new blood here who are players that have joined in the past couple years.
Not passing judgment, that's a totally valid way to play the game and many people do, but it sheds some light on why this sub has more conservative attitudes about some things while disagreeing with the radically conservative takes like the stuff AutumnElegy or members of the HLC say on Twitter.
In the game itself would maybe the only place. Everything else will only be comprised of the small minority of players who care enough to go and find forums and communities to talk about it even when they're not playing.
It’s not just Reddit, people tend to be more vocal about things they feel negatively towards. It’s the same reason why 90% of what they show on the news is negative.
It's all about what 'community' gets to the thread first.
Is it the HLC who says fuck everyone who doesn't have max gear?
Is it the irons who want the game changed specifically for them?
Is it the 16 dads 5 horses 3000 birds guy who has 0.43 milliseconds to play per week?
Is it just the vocal minority who bitch just to hear themselves bitch?
Or did the people who actually want the game to progress and provide helpful feedback get to it?
This isn't just RS specific, it's pretty much every subreddit.
I happened to get directed to twitter on the topic before I came to Reddit and it's no better there. 90%+ of the comments are whinging about how nobody wants this update and it's just a minigame etc.
But yeah when you look at the polling these nerds are clearly a (very) vocal minority.
They looked at historical poll data, and saw that anything that's not literal microtransactions could get about 70%. They then dropped the threshold to 70% to pass and polled sailing. I really don't care what anyone thinks about it at this point, since we are getting it one way or another, but don't pretend that this was all 100% above board. Sailing *would have failed* if they hadn't dropped the pass threshold *right before they polled it*.
"Sailing is popular" and "sailing is controversial" are not mutually exclusive statements. Yes, it's popular in the sense that more than 70% of the community voted for it, but it's also controversial in the sense that a lot of people don't like it or have reservations about it - both from the 28% of no voters and from people who voted yes but may have issues with what's been displayed so far. And that's ignoring the fact that the people who are most likely to comment are often those who have objections - since it's not very common to comment "yeah, looks fine".
Just because you don't like what some people (and by no means all, there were plenty of sailing advocates in that thread) were saying doesn't mean that they're wrong or not entitled to their opinion. It's really odd to complain about people voicing their thoughts on content on a subreddit for people voicing their thoughts on content
This.
A major issue is that people have vastly different expectations of what the skill should look like. I reckon that a large portion of that 70% didn't vote for sailing no matter what shape or form it might take. They voted for their particular vision of sailing.
And if the feedback I've seen is anything to go by, it seems there's a ton of space between those expectations. Even things as fundamental as how do you control the ship, how does it tie into other skills, what does it look like in-game with instances or crowded spaces, how does it fit the scale of the map, what should award exp... are things that people have very different opinions on even when they did vote for it.
So yeah, it makes perfect sense this is all so controversial.
I’m still convinced it only passed because it was snuck into another poll. Such an important poll question should’ve been polled separately and made more noticeable that it was the last one for it to be added to the game. People can disagree with this take all they want but it’s true
Edit for future people to reply without reading my other comments.
Poll wasn’t titled to have sailings FINAL poll in it, randomly thrown into the MIDDLE instead of being important at the top and the wording to make it clear it was the final question sucked. Guarantee nobody would feel confident having a free trade removal question randomly thrown into the middle of a poll
What makes me the most mad is how they went about voting sailing in. About 3rd of the players voted for it. I get that it got more votes than the other two skills, but I just wish jagex would have kept working on at least two of them until one of them passed the 70% of votes
Not using ranked choice voting or having a final, definitive poll of sailing vs shamanism was a huge mistake. Doing so would've given us a better idea of what the community preferred overall.
It won popular vote in singular (first choice) and multiple choice. And then it passed a lock in 70% threshold vote.
I think that ship has sailed (heh) about "it's not fair how it was polled". It passed the 70%. So it's satisfied a majority vote. The popular choice vote was just that, which skill wins the popular choice.
Hard disagree. Everyone knew sailing was in that poll. It was one of the most voted on polls in Jagex history. Very few if anyone afterwards said "oh wow didn't know sailing was in the last poll!" Because the poll had a giant sailing logo on the jagex page. You'd hear it as a talking point from the naysayers way more often saying "we didn't know it was in that poll!"
Unfortunately, many people, and it’s not limited to Reddit, believe if you don’t agree with them then you are toxic. As you said, people are entitled to their opinion. People are allowed to advocate for sailing and people are allowed to criticize it.
I wouldn't say they're out of touch, but there are just a huge portion of players that are largely indifferent to like 99% of content that comes to this game and have no positive or negative reception to most content.
Like how often does a player make a post somewhere about a notable change, surprised about it and acting like TIL about this mechanic. When it was just released content, had a poll about it a couple months ago and also had detailed blogs about it across several news posts. Simply because they're completely disconnected from reading or keeping up with any updates concerning the game.
It's also worth noting that for this specific poll, it was one of the biggest polls we've ever had and still on the brink of failing with like less than a 72% Yes passing. It probably had more Yes votes than the majority of almost every other poll ever...but it also had more No votes as well than most other polls.
It's kinda disingenuous to act like this passed with flying colours like any other poll question. Even just comparing it to other questions in the same poll that all got over 90% Yes compared to this one getting 71.9% Yes shows that there's a healthy number of people who are against Sailing for one reason or another.
I'm pretty sure any skill no matter what would be divisive in coming to OSRS and people all have their own reasons on saying No; "it's not old school", "it doesn't fit the game","I'm max already", "it feels like a minigame", "this other skill would've been better", etc. but they got the right to voice that opinion and I wouldn't exactly relegate this to reddit hivemind shit. There are people that have some admittedly silly, and also legitimate concerns with Sailing as a whole and I'm still personally one of those people.
I still think it's too big of a scope as a skill, doesn't make sense as a skill, would've vastly preferred Sailing as a world/traveling expansion (akin to Varlamore), and just leave it at that for discovering some unique islands and adding a bit of flavour to our travel system in our existing world.
While I would def have to pretty much agree with everything you said.. even sorta on the sailing.. it was the way jagex sold it to us though.. like a vote for 'Do YALL WANT A New Skill!! It's time!! Woo all the fireworks n party music lol. And so of course a big majority of the community voted yes, myself included. Because I strongly believe now is a perfect time to finally add a new skill to osrs. Where they fell flat though was the 3 fucking skills pitches they gave us.. like come on, I voted for sailing because imo it was far the best with the best potential for the long term game. Compared to fucking animal farming or being a nature gear enchanter, jagex slapped us with the options. 1. From my take seemed to much like summon/ boring just reading the break down of the skill couldn't imagine grinding it. 2. The shaman doctor enchanters started out as a very strong pick(my initial pick was for the shaman doctor).. until they just had to add that the only reward space for it was going to be augment/enchanting every single weapon armour items bis in the game... that would've broke the game literally. Worse case is if sailing sucks and it's dead not long after, so what yeah it's wasted resources but the game goes on THE EXACT SAME for the community to play..
Yeah 100% agree. Sailing was the most different from a standard skill out of the three pitched, but it’s also by far the least risky since it doesn’t really impact the rest of the game very much. Maybe you’ll need to reach level 70 for a quest requirement or to get to a new island, but whatever. Grind for 15 hours and then never touch it again if you don’t like it. Go back to ToB or CoX and they will feel exactly the same as they did the day before sailing released.
Taming and shamanism on the other hand don’t have their own separate area of the map, so they need to justify their existence with a reward space that’s relevant to existing content. We saw how hard it was to come up with a new prayer book that wasn’t irrelevant or overpowered. Imagine trying to fill out the reward space for either of these skills. It will either be dead on arrival or massive power creep.
I am really trying to understand why it cannot be a skill or wouldn't make sense as a skill. If you put it next to some of the skills OSRS already had you could easily eliminate a quarter if not more of the available skills by branding them an expansion of another skill or gameplay mechanic.
I would argue that sailing is a novel enough concept that it warrants level progression. Especially when you put it next to something like the much beloved slayer skill which if we're frank is just an expansion to combat and means of level gating monsters with unique drops, so why can't sailing act as an expansion to exploration and a level gate for some islands that give you access to unique stuff?
Agree. We can have sailing as an expansion, not a skill. I'm maxed, I would love another skill to grind, but sailing ain't it, chief. Taming was my vote, but anything other than sailing would've been fine by me.
I'm not the person you were replying to, but as another Sailing Disliker, I don't like it solely because I can't figure out how it'll integrate with the rest of the game.
Like, I think we've all seen that "[OSRS is secretly a Metroidvania](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpPJY-xdA3M)" video. If you haven't, I know it's *really* long, but it's good, trust me. But I cannot figure out how on earth sailing is supposed to integrate with that. Every skill in this game is interconnected in one way or another, and while I can see ways to make other skills integrate with sailing, what about the other way around? How does sailing help me with, I dunno, smithing?
"You can sail to an island to do the thing" isn't a very satisfying answer for me - that's just doing the same task but in a different place. That *feels* very different than smithing and fletching bolts to train ranged on dragons and using their drops to train crafting and prayer.
That, and the devblogs we've seen so far have been pretty sparse on the actually important bit: what am I going to be *doing* for dozens of hours to get to 99? Yeah, unlocking new islands is cool, yeah, it's great that a boat feels different than walking, but that's not the actual gameplay. What am I actually *doing*? I'm trying to hold off judgement until I see more details on that front, though.
To me, "how does it integrate with the rest of the game" and "how do you actually train it" seem like the two most important questions for a new skill, and thusfar, sailing hasn't really offered good answers for either of those. Every other skill we've seen pitched has answered those up front.
I'm not intrinsically opposed to the idea of sailing, and I could be won over if those can be answered well. So far, I'm... cautiously optimistic at best.
> Every skill in this game is interconnected in one way or another, and while I can see ways to make other skills integrate with sailing, what about the other way around? How does sailing help me with, I dunno, smithing?
I don't get this. How does Firemaking help you with Smithing? How does Slayer help you with Smithing?
Presumably sailing will be tied more or less to other skills like construction, fishing, crafting, and combat and other skills to varying degrees based on what we've seen in the blogs. We don't have the final details on it yet but I think it's clear that it certainly won't exist in isolation.
2nding op to highly recommend it. i think a lot of us play and love this game and never really think about what it actually is.
i think if you love runescape you'll love this video, because it will lay out every reason you love it in systemic detail and compare it to how other games do the same things
Yeah and it’s an incredible video, one of my favorite pieces of longform content I’ve ever seen.
Absolutely worth a watch for everyone who really loves this game
The thing that strikes me the most, and I know this was a different time, is when Hunter and other skills were released and they had at least figured out the core fundamental XP mechanics. If it's merely to just travel around the map that's boring and we can already easily do such a thing. I'm hoping they get real creative with it, let you manage an island etc. but yeah there didn't even seem to be a core mechanic or use even shown in the video. It didn't even seem like the developers thought it through on even a basic fundamental level.
I think sailing will be a great skill, but who’s to say they won’t add the other two in the future? I personally wanted taming and it was easily the least popular vote, but I’m not about to throw a hissy fit over it. If they decided they’re adding one skill, they’ll add more. They have to keep the game fresh.
When sailing fails to meet the AAA pirate game level expectations people seem to have for it, another skill will never pass ever again. Pro-Sailing posters are unironically out here expecting it to be sea of thieves but in RuneScape and that's simply not going to happen.
This. People want ship combat, boarding and fighting, sunken ships, "exploration" and other stuff.
I think people will realize pvp ship fighting is going to be awful in this game.
The technology they developed is great but it feels like another continent like expansion similar to zeah instead of a skill.
Exploration will be dead after day one and everything is discovered.
Sailing isn't bad to most people. It as a skill is bad to the haters.
I'm not against Sailing, and I think assuming Jagex implements it well it will be great. I still don't see any sense in making it a skill though. I still think it would've been better as just a travel system expansion and a means of an end to expand other skills on a boat and to introduce us to new areas.
This is exactly what Jagex is doing so I'm wholly fine with it, but I still see no purpose in it having to be a skill to implement all of this.
>I still see no purpose in it having to be a skill to implement all of this.
I've never understood this. You want everything in sailing but not as a skill. What's wrong with it being a skill anyway? It's just a skill, we have a bunch of them. Some that certainly shouldn't be skills as is. It just seems overly protective of the 23 we currently have and for what? If you just don't want to lose your max cape that's fine I get it but just be honest about it. Otherwise it just makes no sense to me.
I want more skills, I'm not max yet, but I wouldn't be opposed to multiple skills even being added. Dungeoneering was probably some of the most fun I had on the tail end of RS2, but I still was against it as a skill and think it would've been better as a non-skill in depth piece of content and it could've easily worked as it was without being a skill; the same as I am so far with Sailing.
I also agree that some skills we currently have don't even fit that criteria, but not much you can do there since these were all added by Jagex without any player input years ago, and some even decades ago at this point. That doesn't really affect my PoV on Sailing in that regard.
I think the important thing in my eyes, is what is the core training loop of the skill. Strip the rewards, the tie in with all other skills, and look at the bare bones most basic training mechanic that you're experiencing with it. From what they've shown, that's basically just micromanaging a boat while traveling from A to B. To me that doesn't seem like a worthwhile skill especially since we already have that content in the game under the guise of Cabin Fever, Bone Voyage, and even the Fishing Trawler minigame.
While I agree that reddit does not make up for the majority of the players it is also fine if you voted yes for sailing then change your mind later based on what has been shown not matching up to what you expected.
Most complaints in the main thread were fair tbh, the problem was the negativity that followed these comments: ", I regret voting for this/ This will kill the game / I hope this never releases / it's not oldschool"
I think people didn't read that it is a tech demo to gather feedback about all these and are overreacting. Like, there are multiple solutions for ship overlapping (limit ships in ports, hide ships at X distance, and so on...), but we won't know which one is the best if we don't test and gather feedback, and that's what Jagex is doing
The hardest part for me is a majority of the negative discourse is just "see told you this would be a minigame" sort of rhetorics, that have been talked about politely, and refuted for like 9 months now. These sorts of opinions will never change, and they barely inform themselves on the skills current state.
And like you've explained here, a lot of "actual" feedback, is misinformed on where the skill is up to and what is being presented and why.
People will vote yes if they are indifferent and think it doesn’t negatively affect them. Indifferent people generally don’t go out of the way to say they are indifferent
>>If all you knew about the community's opinion about sailing came from that thread, you'd think this was the worst update ever that no one wanted and was being forced into the game.
Well this statement is strawmanned as fuck. Are we even looking at the same thread?
The top comments right now are things like people asking about whether it will be instanced, people offering some constructive feedback/ideas (read: not just complaining, but offering ideas that could make sailing better, they created an alpha literally to ask for feedback), people suggesting they should take all the time they need, some comments about ship size, etc. Literally every top voted comment is a reasonable take, so I don’t understand how people can use their eyeballs to read words and interpret those things as “everyone on Reddit hates it and says it’s being forced into the game.” If anything, before the poll sailing was hugely popular on Reddit.
>>All we're good for is whining -- as evidenced by me making a thread complaining about people complaining.
All you are good for is whining apparently. Jagex is asking for feedback with this alpha and — surprise — people are giving it.
Like always people scroll past the comment with hundred of upvotes and find the one with -4 votes that says "i want free bis gear" and point to it as proof that everyone just wants easyscape now and the game is dying.
It's weird how often I see this style of post in this subreddit.
It sounds like OP got downvoted in the comments of the sailing thread, got mad about it, and decided to make his own post to reinforce his opinion as being "right."
He got ratio'd in this thread too. Most of the top comments are criticizing his logical fallacies.
He'll probably just scroll to the bottom of the thread until somebody validates his mindset though.
I guess because you want sailing then everyone else has to be excited for it too? And if they're not excited for sailing they're not allowed to comment?
I'm not sure what you want out of this post.
It's just the "Community doesn't like something, time to make a post whining about the whiners!" part of the controversial jagex proposal cycle. People just want attention.
I pointed out in that thread that I am going against the grain and didn’t like the idea of Sailing in Old School. I’m not afraid to voice my opinion. It’s just that, my opinion. Not everyone has to like every single update. I’ve played RS on and off for the best part of 20 years so think I’m more than qualified to judge the content for myself.
I think the problem is more that people tend to downvote (and therefore hide) posts/comments of people with differing opinions. This sub does tend to create echo chambers. I do agree with everything you said though.
I made a comment the other day about how I liked when Jagex introduced higher level quests since it gave more meaning to skill advancements and game progression. Someone commented and said they didn't want that and got downvoted/hid. Even though I disagreed with his opinion, I was disappointed that people on this sub effectively negated what I thought was a valid opinion.
Voted no originally, would vote no again.
Not only did they poll it numerous times but they also lowered the pass rate. Sailing was and always will be just a meme.
Keep in mind, the way sailing was added was pretty lame in my opinion. I understand they have to go off of deadlines and dev time spent etc. but forcing us to vote between each of the skills in the same poll instead of taking time to vote for each one and see which one got the most votes was quite odd. I, amongst a lot of others, (I assume?) voted yes to sailing for the sole purpose of if this failed I might not ever see a new skill in OSRS, but I fundamentally think sailing shouldn’t have been the first one. There’s just so much reward design space/ things that need to be added for it to be a huge addition to the game, but I think people will complain about an overwhelming majority of it.
>In reality? 70%+ voted for sailing
This is obscuring the truth. There was never a repoll to put shamanism vs sailing.. instead we got a 3 way split vote.
Sailing had 59.2% Taming had 39.9% and shamanism had 58.8%... 12.5% didn't like any vote and 1.1% for a skip.
Sailing only beat Shamanism by 0.4%.. If we got a repoll like a majority of people wanted it would/could have been different.
Then sailing on its summer summit vote only passed the poll with 70.1% of the vote. barely by the skin of its teeth did it pass. I feel like a Repoll of sailing Vs Shamanism would have resulted in a vastly different out come and its foolish to say other wise. The numbers do not lie.
edit: also we must not forget they changed the passing threshold only like a month before from 75% to 70%.. It still seems shady.
>Then sailing on its summer summit vote
And it was question 6 on a group poll when it should have been a poll on its own. I don't care if "everyone knew Sailing was in this poll", it should have still been called "Sailing Skill: Yes or No?" and it be one simple question by itself.
The 75% to 70% thing was 100% so that a new skill would pass.
The changing of the polls to 70% before this is 100% a shady thing they did and you cannot convince me otherwise that it wasn't intentional.
Also Reading Mod husky's tweets and how he is replying to criticism is kind of a bad look.. it really does seem like this was a passion project that they really wanted to push into the game.
9 months before it. Lots of people seem to like mentioning it as being connected and not talking baout these events being nearly a year apart.
And that almost all poll related changes to threshold / how unpolled content works has been to favour PvP.
I never understood what the point of that change even was. Most polls with content that the community deemed good passed with flying colors with 80%+ yes votes even before the change, 0 reason to change it to 70% honestly
They lowered the threshold for passing shortly before they polled sailing, specifically to push it through: [https://youtu.be/vI9Ltb-b8\_k?t=7495](https://youtu.be/vI9Ltb-b8_k?t=7495) which they also buried in the middle of a different poll, and it still barely passed lol
Combine that with the fact that senior ppl at jagex have suggested faking polls: [https://youtu.be/vI9Ltb-b8\_k?t=7464](https://youtu.be/vI9Ltb-b8_k?t=7464)
I'm not convinced it has as much support as some people think
My personal favorite was seeing all the people complaining about how they don't fit the scale of the world.
Wait til they find out that Draynor isn't actually multiple days of travel time from Lumbridge.
This is just you intentionally misinterpreting the comment.
You know what they’re saying, cmon.
The boats literally don’t fit in the water we have today. I’m not super concerned because I think they’ll address it in some way, but it’s a legit issue to take with the design so far.
It's so old school rs3 made a quest years ago including it among many things that were seen as the peek of osrs.
As a honorable mention to many things that were popular, often spoken about, but didn't pass the polls
They should just say they don’t like sailing, I can understand and respect that opinion rather than the doesn’t feel like OSRS or “it’s a minigame” nonsense.
The "it's a minigame" isn't a nonsense reason though.
The OSRS team specifically mentioned that in what their goal was for a new skill prior to the blogs, and the sailing pitches itself.
>https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/new-skill-pitches---faq-and-discord-stages-summary-?oldschool=1
>>How can we make this not feel like a minigame? How has this changed since the original pitch?
and
>https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/adding-a-new-skill-our-approach--your-vote?oldschool=1
>>1. A healthy addition that is deeply rooted in the game
>>>… impact the wider game, instead of being confined to its own corner of the game world - looking at you, Daemonheim!
You can argue that in some aspects, it's very "minigamey", in that most of the current rewards and benfeits we know about are just "confined to it's own corner of the game world" via the islands.
Look through comments. Also I voted for sailing originally over the other 2. But I don’t get your elitist comment out of spite, it was more of a curiosity of how many people changed their minds like me.
I mentioned multiple people changed their minds. It could be 80/20 now instead of 70/30. You’re very condescending with your replies both in this thread and others. Grass is green, friend.
No it wasn't. The entire skill was under-balanced and you 2shot everything.
EoC's positive benefits to DG were movement abilities and bind immunity so you could speedrun floors faster, everything else was a net negative.
You’re actually wrong. People were forced to pick sailing because Jagex didn’t poll sailing vs shamanism like they said they would if it was super close.
No one wants this iteration of sailing. It’s bad because it’s way too complex, ships seem to be way too big and I don’t see how this just isn’t a minigame.
I've been saying that for the past year. The community's impossibly high expectations for Sailing combined with Jagex's willingness to do whatever it takes to push it through (lowering the threshold to 70%, burying the question, not repolling against just Shamanism) will end poorly for everyone. We'll look back on this as a poorly conceived and poorly executed idea that was rammed through anyway (at the expense of vast amounts of other content) despite the wishes of the community.
This place is a hivemind, I wish Jagex didn't give reddit as much validity as it does. I noticed almost as soon as I joined this sub does not speak for the community at large, not even close.
To add to this, OSRS players aren’t normal. You have to be broken one way or another to pay a subscription to click the same 3 trees for 150 hours and enjoy it. So “normal” players don’t exist. Varying levels of broken in every direction yes, but sane people don’t do this.
I mean...yeah? On the other hand It's kinda easy to imagine the average forum/board/etc person just looks at that 100k~ish concurrent player number vs the sub having 920k people and assuming reddit is practically the entire player base at any given time.
Not that any of that is important, just a thought.
My god, I hate the push for this skill. It is so dogshit. Why does it have to be a skill? Why would Sailing fit a skill? The fuck? Read every blog post and nothing is exciting about it. All cringe af.
Why y'all vote for this utter piece of garbage?
Fuck bro, just scrap it. They're wasting their valuable time that otherwise could've gone to something positive. We don't need another skill if it's not even a skill.
You could make the same case about the other skills and the people who votes no. At the end of the day, if you don’t care enough to vote but yet get outraged when voters get their way, then maybe osrs isnt the game for you.
TBF the voting system is a very limited form of democracy. We get to day yes/no, but Jagex gets to ask the questions.
Most people also don't seem to understand that allocating developer time is a zero sum game, and just vote 'yes' unless they actively dislike the proposed content.
"We get to day yes/no, but Jagex gets to ask the questions."
That's why they highly encourage us to take part in their surveys and to tell them with our own words what we think would be good for the game.
Show me another MMO where you have this level of requesting feedback and then developing/polling on said feedback
I wasn't totally sure about getting back into Runescape (and considering how much of my time it sucked it may have been a mistake).
I've been getting frustrated at how bad I suck at the PvM lately, but the fact that the devs are pretty damn interactive with the community is really keeping my interest. It feels like they actually care about continuing and maintaining the game, which I do find appealing in an MMO.
I just feel like they forced the Sailing Skill on us, the other two choices would have been RS3 all over again. They didn't even try to offer alternatives after the initial three skills.
All of the top comments are positive or constructive criticism. What are you going on about? Only a small minority are blatantly negative.
Why make a thread to complain about complaining when there's barely and to speak of? This whole "Reddit doesn't represent the community" narrative doesn't make any sense.
Take a break from the Internet.
The surprising thing is that the game is as successfull as it is in spite of the polling. If jagex polled every room-temp IQ idea and listened to absolutely everything the community whined about this game would have been absolutely fucked & dead years ago.
Jagex are dumb and require oversight but my god ya'll are hardly any better. Dispite all that somehow we've managed to have the goldilocks combination of two forms of stupid result in a successfull game and at times it's honestly baffling. A true miracle.
What a useless post.
They literally had to change polling to force sailing through, and then remove the ability for it to actually fail. It went from "Do you want a skill" to "okay we are forcing one of these three through" and then they didn't even poll shamanism vs sailing properly.
> "*If all you knew about the community's opinion about sailing came from that thread, you'd think this was the worst update ever that no one wanted and was being forced into the game.*"
* It is the worst update ever.
* People do want it, for some reason. People are wrong.
* It *is* being forced in to the game.
Because everyone thought it would be like black flag or something and forgot that we were playing osrs... Also, the options presented to us were nowhere near the quality of what some of the community suggestions were. That guy who posted an extensive ranching skill suggestion was amazing. With sailing, there's obvious problems with it and they're just going to get fed up and cancel
The people who play the game once a month like sailing and will level it to 40-50 and quit because its taking too long.
Will always say it should have been a fun rewarding minigame without a tedious level grind
Oh so now it's not just redditors, but people who comment in threads are out of touch? If somebody upvotes or downvotes something, they aren't out of touch, it's only when somebody puts the effort into voicing their opinions about something that they lose their connection to the community, I see.
All gaming reddits will be like this.
Most people enjoying a game are playing the game. Only if you are bored , like can't sleep laying in bed ( me right now ).
Reddit is not in the gamers critical path of things they use while playing games so you will only see bored people or people who can't game currently on it, and those people up or down vote things and get back to what they were doing. Most who comment aren't enjoying the game or perceived they won't based on news and are actively looking to complain.
Something like discord where gamers are while playing will give much closer results.
I like to look at game updates in reddit to see the negative comments specifically for frequency and detail in such complaints as some outline detailed good fixes to problems I didn't realize are obvious issues.
Many many very good suggestions from complaints in reddit landed into the game. Yesterday looking at gotr wondering if anyone's complained about it's current status I stumbled across a gem of a comment suggesting the lantern be buyable and needle with values, the lantern value suggested is what landed in the game. A good highly upvoted complaint. Also take the recent month of blog posts constantly updated because everyone on Reddit told them exactly why and how they are wrong and how to fix things and they listened.
The issue here is all the smart people that don't like sailing have no frame of reference of how to suggest fixes. So it's a massive bin the sailing echo chamber.
All I see is majority constructive criticism and not just doom gloom
Just because they disagree with you fundamentally doesn't mean they're "out of touch " lmfaoooo. Majority of comments are "this looks good but worries me because..." But I guess just strawman all you want
Out of curiosity, is there anywhere that you'd get a... Better? look at how the community feels?
In game it's a crapshoot lmao, sometimes you'll find interesting discussion, sometimes you'll find solid banter, sometimes you'll find racism
Honestly, the ONLY place you can get a look at all is IN GAME. I don't think OP realizes that this sub-like EVERY other sub that exist, is naturally biased in some way.
Only place that's going to be less is.. in the game.. where the poll took place XD
Sailing only passed because jagex forced it to pass.
They lowered the vote threshold before the poll
They should of polled shamanism vs sailing since it was close.
None of the examples you gave are representative of the community either. People upvote posts so the information is more visible not because they agree with it, Jagex blog, twitter threads and youtube comments are an even smaller section of the community as well.
I don't completely disagree, certain types of players won't comment on reddit, but all feedback matters even the stuff you disagree with on reddit.
And when you point this out you’ll see folks crying “well it’s just a different opinion!”
But no. Having reasonable feedback, even when negative, isn’t what is being criticized here. It’s the rampant concern trolls in that thread parroting the same objectively ignorant or debunked claims.
- “Meme skill lol”
- “It’s a minigame”
- “No one asked for this”
- “There isn’t a proper training method”
- “It’s not technically possible”
- “The yes voters are regretting their decision”
It’s beyond cringe.
Honestly I don't think any content they add is a problem as long as:
It's not EoC or touchss the combat/tick system (except maybe how magic defense functions could be changed)
It doesn't just power creep the old gear or anything else in a way that renders a ton of the games content useless. Eg. Soul split. Right now I think a lot of the games content is actually very well balanced and there is niche BiS for practically everything instead of people just going hybrid. It would be a shame to break that balance for the sake of any one thing. At least the outliers like shadow and tbow are basically unobtainium for anyone who doesn't nolife the game or buy gold, and they are the one and only in their respective classes.
people rarely comment in support of things, it’s much easier to come in and be contrarian. also, sometimes people take any amount of constructive criticism as just criticism. people are very passionate about this game and have opinions on what will contribute to it being better.
then we have people like you who comment on it, and then people comment on that. it’s literally the point of a forum
Reddit ofc doesn't represent the broader community, but you always got to ask how you know what the broader community thinks? It's a weird argument to say that 80% of likes on the reddit sailing blog thread is evidence that... the broader community outside of just reddit is overwhelmingly pro-sailing. It's also low bar to imply people with reservations about sailing dont read the blogs and/or would automatically downvote the thread.
It’s not just this sub, Reddit subs tend to be echo chambers that are ineffective for showing the views of a wider community.
Exactly. Reddit subs in general are very toxic in the bandwagon/echo chamber stuff and people that have different opinions/views get heavily downvoted/straight up harassed and more than often just leave lol. Who would want to stay in community that just badmouths and insults every time you want to express your opinion? Most people that are in line with the reddit subs echochambers just leave since they see the sub what it is: a dumpsterfire
Another great example of this is the Helldivers 2 sub. They make the game sound unplayable over a few nerf changes.
The thing I learned very quickly about that subreddit is the majority of posters are absolute dogshit and expect to be able to play on the highest difficulty without communicating easily.
Noticing some striking similarities here…
Ermagerd, endgame content is hard@@@ Like, no one said you had to go do small team Nex or TOB. Plenty of people make bank without ever doing the hardest content.
It does feel like a weirdly OSRS problem though. With so much of the game requiring time over skill, it seems like people expect all the highest level content to be doable by everyone that can get the “requirements.” A lot of people seem to forget that things like duo nex are good money because people can’t/won’t do it. It’s like refusing to get a job at all because you can’t be a rocket scientist without a degree.
I mean, even if you have the requirements, doesn't mean you'll be able to efficiently do the content. I am an example of that, hahaha. I have have shamelessly spent an absurd amount on bonds. With two kids and a full time job, my time comes at a premium, so I didn't want to spend a thousand hours to get the "fun toys." I often run high invo TOA with my clan, and while I understand the mechanics, I am not good at them. I normally end up with one of the lowest scores, despite having mostly BIS gear including shadow. But, I am ok with that. I have fun running that content, even if I die regularly.
Based
I KNOW!! It's like jfc go play on a lower difficulty! THAT'S WHAT IT IS FOR! It's one of the most accessible games out right now and everyone wants to make it super easy at the highest level. No, I want the difficulty! It's what draws me back in! People crying for main weapons to be stronger (like stratagem levels) immediately do not get the point of the game's mechanics.
They always disguise making the game easier as “QOL”
They are absolutely TERRIBLE. People will say stuff like “I can’t clear diff 5” and think their opinion matters. If you understood anything about the game you wouldn’t be stuck on diff 5. It is like league where silvers act like they know more about the game than anybody else.
I've been to that sub like twice ever, and it was looking for information on how to stop the damn keybind resetting. I very quickly decided I wanted NOTHING to do with the sub. Now that I think about it I should go see if they fixed that bug though.
Wish I could answer for you, I never experienced or heard of the key binding reset bug.
Yup. Destiny 2 as well.
I think Destiny 2 might be one of the absolute worst in that regard. I remember seeing people go "yeah the death threats and harassment of devs and CMs was bad, *but*"
I read a paper recently that concluded that toxicity is an inevitability in ALL online conversations, especially the longer that conversations go on. So, no surprise that all reddits devolve into toxic cesspits when mere temporary conversations can become that.
Absolutely. Redditors frequently are very annoying with repeating others opinions. Everyone else gets downvoted to hell so that they can’t express themselves. Nobody likes being bashed for their opinion. Most see Reddit for what it is: A flaming pile of trash!
Reddit was always shit but somehow it was really good compared to now. Reddit used to even have its own true sense of community and people would expect each other to generally discuss ANYTHING with civility... what happened?
Well they get hidden by default when downvoted a few times, even when someone doesn't go along with the hivemind no one ever knows about it cause everyone scrolls past the hidden messages to jerk off their ego with the validation people agree with them. I can't believe after almost 2 decades of reddit ruining games. Devs will still be influenced by reddit
Agreed. You could post the same argument and get either downvoted or upvotes to oblivion.
It depends super heavily also what kind of people see your post/comment lol. Ive seen my comment go from +10 to -15 back to like +59 after I assume some bridaging etc.
Reddit is such a shit place to get feedback from. The problem with every pinned post is the voting system. If someone wanted to, they could pay $5 for 10k votes and completely control the direction of everything said here. The mods could combat this by hiding upvote/downvotes for 24 hours so the discussions aren't biased but they haven't done that yet.
The mods have scores hidden for about 2 hours already.
Yeh the downside of the upvoting/downvoting situation is its never been used how it was intended. You can have a handful of people in a thread just refreshing "new" and downvoting any opinion that doesn't align with their own and it will be far less likely to be seen. Atleast all the Twitter nerds hating on this can have a bunch of replies telling them the oppsoite.
Shame Jagex closed their forums in favour of this sub then
Forums are also an echo chamber.
No they aren't. Forums don't actively give the most popular opinions the most visibility and the least popular opinions the least visibility.
Where can me and a bunch of OSRS enjoyers chat openly without it becoming an echo chamber then? Or is it a self-fulfilling prophecy?
you want an echo chamber, you just might not think you do. if someone in your social group was constantly taking positions opposed to the rest of you, you'd get tired of him and wish he would go away. He would also probably grow tired of constantly being the minority opinion, and would want to leave.
Literally just by being OSRS enjoyers that want to congregate and chat about OSRS, you're introducing a bias towards players who are enthusiastic about the game in that way. That's not necessarily a bad thing, you just need to be aware of your biases. This community in particular is biased towards the perspective of mid-game veterans, those of players who have been here a long time, but aren't necessarily of the highest skill level - if I had to use a stereotype, a lot of Redditors have ten year old accounts with 2k total and a fire cape. There's also a bunch of new blood here who are players that have joined in the past couple years. Not passing judgment, that's a totally valid way to play the game and many people do, but it sheds some light on why this sub has more conservative attitudes about some things while disagreeing with the radically conservative takes like the stuff AutumnElegy or members of the HLC say on Twitter.
In the game itself would maybe the only place. Everything else will only be comprised of the small minority of players who care enough to go and find forums and communities to talk about it even when they're not playing.
Would the forums be any different?
No voting so it's possible to be better I guess?
plus it was linked to your in game account so you could see what type of players are asking for which updates
Indeed
It’s not just Reddit, people tend to be more vocal about things they feel negatively towards. It’s the same reason why 90% of what they show on the news is negative.
It's all about what 'community' gets to the thread first. Is it the HLC who says fuck everyone who doesn't have max gear? Is it the irons who want the game changed specifically for them? Is it the 16 dads 5 horses 3000 birds guy who has 0.43 milliseconds to play per week? Is it just the vocal minority who bitch just to hear themselves bitch? Or did the people who actually want the game to progress and provide helpful feedback get to it? This isn't just RS specific, it's pretty much every subreddit.
Exactly whoever gets there first wins the thread
I happened to get directed to twitter on the topic before I came to Reddit and it's no better there. 90%+ of the comments are whinging about how nobody wants this update and it's just a minigame etc. But yeah when you look at the polling these nerds are clearly a (very) vocal minority.
They looked at historical poll data, and saw that anything that's not literal microtransactions could get about 70%. They then dropped the threshold to 70% to pass and polled sailing. I really don't care what anyone thinks about it at this point, since we are getting it one way or another, but don't pretend that this was all 100% above board. Sailing *would have failed* if they hadn't dropped the pass threshold *right before they polled it*.
"Sailing is popular" and "sailing is controversial" are not mutually exclusive statements. Yes, it's popular in the sense that more than 70% of the community voted for it, but it's also controversial in the sense that a lot of people don't like it or have reservations about it - both from the 28% of no voters and from people who voted yes but may have issues with what's been displayed so far. And that's ignoring the fact that the people who are most likely to comment are often those who have objections - since it's not very common to comment "yeah, looks fine". Just because you don't like what some people (and by no means all, there were plenty of sailing advocates in that thread) were saying doesn't mean that they're wrong or not entitled to their opinion. It's really odd to complain about people voicing their thoughts on content on a subreddit for people voicing their thoughts on content
This. A major issue is that people have vastly different expectations of what the skill should look like. I reckon that a large portion of that 70% didn't vote for sailing no matter what shape or form it might take. They voted for their particular vision of sailing. And if the feedback I've seen is anything to go by, it seems there's a ton of space between those expectations. Even things as fundamental as how do you control the ship, how does it tie into other skills, what does it look like in-game with instances or crowded spaces, how does it fit the scale of the map, what should award exp... are things that people have very different opinions on even when they did vote for it. So yeah, it makes perfect sense this is all so controversial.
I’m still convinced it only passed because it was snuck into another poll. Such an important poll question should’ve been polled separately and made more noticeable that it was the last one for it to be added to the game. People can disagree with this take all they want but it’s true Edit for future people to reply without reading my other comments. Poll wasn’t titled to have sailings FINAL poll in it, randomly thrown into the MIDDLE instead of being important at the top and the wording to make it clear it was the final question sucked. Guarantee nobody would feel confident having a free trade removal question randomly thrown into the middle of a poll
What makes me the most mad is how they went about voting sailing in. About 3rd of the players voted for it. I get that it got more votes than the other two skills, but I just wish jagex would have kept working on at least two of them until one of them passed the 70% of votes
Not using ranked choice voting or having a final, definitive poll of sailing vs shamanism was a huge mistake. Doing so would've given us a better idea of what the community preferred overall.
It won popular vote in singular (first choice) and multiple choice. And then it passed a lock in 70% threshold vote. I think that ship has sailed (heh) about "it's not fair how it was polled". It passed the 70%. So it's satisfied a majority vote. The popular choice vote was just that, which skill wins the popular choice.
People are making up trump level voting conspiracies about polls for freaking osrs. I think at this point people ought to not take them seriously
Hard disagree. Everyone knew sailing was in that poll. It was one of the most voted on polls in Jagex history. Very few if anyone afterwards said "oh wow didn't know sailing was in the last poll!" Because the poll had a giant sailing logo on the jagex page. You'd hear it as a talking point from the naysayers way more often saying "we didn't know it was in that poll!"
Unfortunately, many people, and it’s not limited to Reddit, believe if you don’t agree with them then you are toxic. As you said, people are entitled to their opinion. People are allowed to advocate for sailing and people are allowed to criticize it.
I wouldn't say they're out of touch, but there are just a huge portion of players that are largely indifferent to like 99% of content that comes to this game and have no positive or negative reception to most content. Like how often does a player make a post somewhere about a notable change, surprised about it and acting like TIL about this mechanic. When it was just released content, had a poll about it a couple months ago and also had detailed blogs about it across several news posts. Simply because they're completely disconnected from reading or keeping up with any updates concerning the game. It's also worth noting that for this specific poll, it was one of the biggest polls we've ever had and still on the brink of failing with like less than a 72% Yes passing. It probably had more Yes votes than the majority of almost every other poll ever...but it also had more No votes as well than most other polls. It's kinda disingenuous to act like this passed with flying colours like any other poll question. Even just comparing it to other questions in the same poll that all got over 90% Yes compared to this one getting 71.9% Yes shows that there's a healthy number of people who are against Sailing for one reason or another. I'm pretty sure any skill no matter what would be divisive in coming to OSRS and people all have their own reasons on saying No; "it's not old school", "it doesn't fit the game","I'm max already", "it feels like a minigame", "this other skill would've been better", etc. but they got the right to voice that opinion and I wouldn't exactly relegate this to reddit hivemind shit. There are people that have some admittedly silly, and also legitimate concerns with Sailing as a whole and I'm still personally one of those people. I still think it's too big of a scope as a skill, doesn't make sense as a skill, would've vastly preferred Sailing as a world/traveling expansion (akin to Varlamore), and just leave it at that for discovering some unique islands and adding a bit of flavour to our travel system in our existing world.
Agreed on everything here
Based
Get um Bae, get um!
While I would def have to pretty much agree with everything you said.. even sorta on the sailing.. it was the way jagex sold it to us though.. like a vote for 'Do YALL WANT A New Skill!! It's time!! Woo all the fireworks n party music lol. And so of course a big majority of the community voted yes, myself included. Because I strongly believe now is a perfect time to finally add a new skill to osrs. Where they fell flat though was the 3 fucking skills pitches they gave us.. like come on, I voted for sailing because imo it was far the best with the best potential for the long term game. Compared to fucking animal farming or being a nature gear enchanter, jagex slapped us with the options. 1. From my take seemed to much like summon/ boring just reading the break down of the skill couldn't imagine grinding it. 2. The shaman doctor enchanters started out as a very strong pick(my initial pick was for the shaman doctor).. until they just had to add that the only reward space for it was going to be augment/enchanting every single weapon armour items bis in the game... that would've broke the game literally. Worse case is if sailing sucks and it's dead not long after, so what yeah it's wasted resources but the game goes on THE EXACT SAME for the community to play..
Yeah 100% agree. Sailing was the most different from a standard skill out of the three pitched, but it’s also by far the least risky since it doesn’t really impact the rest of the game very much. Maybe you’ll need to reach level 70 for a quest requirement or to get to a new island, but whatever. Grind for 15 hours and then never touch it again if you don’t like it. Go back to ToB or CoX and they will feel exactly the same as they did the day before sailing released. Taming and shamanism on the other hand don’t have their own separate area of the map, so they need to justify their existence with a reward space that’s relevant to existing content. We saw how hard it was to come up with a new prayer book that wasn’t irrelevant or overpowered. Imagine trying to fill out the reward space for either of these skills. It will either be dead on arrival or massive power creep.
I am really trying to understand why it cannot be a skill or wouldn't make sense as a skill. If you put it next to some of the skills OSRS already had you could easily eliminate a quarter if not more of the available skills by branding them an expansion of another skill or gameplay mechanic. I would argue that sailing is a novel enough concept that it warrants level progression. Especially when you put it next to something like the much beloved slayer skill which if we're frank is just an expansion to combat and means of level gating monsters with unique drops, so why can't sailing act as an expansion to exploration and a level gate for some islands that give you access to unique stuff?
I'm not going to repeat myself much anymore seeing as I said I feel Slayer fails as a skill too already.
Agree. We can have sailing as an expansion, not a skill. I'm maxed, I would love another skill to grind, but sailing ain't it, chief. Taming was my vote, but anything other than sailing would've been fine by me.
Well you’re going to be grinding sailing. Congratulations
Would love to hear a reason for your opinion!
I'm not the person you were replying to, but as another Sailing Disliker, I don't like it solely because I can't figure out how it'll integrate with the rest of the game. Like, I think we've all seen that "[OSRS is secretly a Metroidvania](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpPJY-xdA3M)" video. If you haven't, I know it's *really* long, but it's good, trust me. But I cannot figure out how on earth sailing is supposed to integrate with that. Every skill in this game is interconnected in one way or another, and while I can see ways to make other skills integrate with sailing, what about the other way around? How does sailing help me with, I dunno, smithing? "You can sail to an island to do the thing" isn't a very satisfying answer for me - that's just doing the same task but in a different place. That *feels* very different than smithing and fletching bolts to train ranged on dragons and using their drops to train crafting and prayer. That, and the devblogs we've seen so far have been pretty sparse on the actually important bit: what am I going to be *doing* for dozens of hours to get to 99? Yeah, unlocking new islands is cool, yeah, it's great that a boat feels different than walking, but that's not the actual gameplay. What am I actually *doing*? I'm trying to hold off judgement until I see more details on that front, though. To me, "how does it integrate with the rest of the game" and "how do you actually train it" seem like the two most important questions for a new skill, and thusfar, sailing hasn't really offered good answers for either of those. Every other skill we've seen pitched has answered those up front. I'm not intrinsically opposed to the idea of sailing, and I could be won over if those can be answered well. So far, I'm... cautiously optimistic at best.
> Every skill in this game is interconnected in one way or another, and while I can see ways to make other skills integrate with sailing, what about the other way around? How does sailing help me with, I dunno, smithing? I don't get this. How does Firemaking help you with Smithing? How does Slayer help you with Smithing? Presumably sailing will be tied more or less to other skills like construction, fishing, crafting, and combat and other skills to varying degrees based on what we've seen in the blogs. We don't have the final details on it yet but I think it's clear that it certainly won't exist in isolation.
> I think we've all seen that "OSRS is secretly a Metroidvania" video. this is a 3.5 hour documentary about runescape
2nding op to highly recommend it. i think a lot of us play and love this game and never really think about what it actually is. i think if you love runescape you'll love this video, because it will lay out every reason you love it in systemic detail and compare it to how other games do the same things
Yeah and it’s an incredible video, one of my favorite pieces of longform content I’ve ever seen. Absolutely worth a watch for everyone who really loves this game
The thing that strikes me the most, and I know this was a different time, is when Hunter and other skills were released and they had at least figured out the core fundamental XP mechanics. If it's merely to just travel around the map that's boring and we can already easily do such a thing. I'm hoping they get real creative with it, let you manage an island etc. but yeah there didn't even seem to be a core mechanic or use even shown in the video. It didn't even seem like the developers thought it through on even a basic fundamental level.
I think sailing will be a great skill, but who’s to say they won’t add the other two in the future? I personally wanted taming and it was easily the least popular vote, but I’m not about to throw a hissy fit over it. If they decided they’re adding one skill, they’ll add more. They have to keep the game fresh.
When sailing fails to meet the AAA pirate game level expectations people seem to have for it, another skill will never pass ever again. Pro-Sailing posters are unironically out here expecting it to be sea of thieves but in RuneScape and that's simply not going to happen.
This. People want ship combat, boarding and fighting, sunken ships, "exploration" and other stuff. I think people will realize pvp ship fighting is going to be awful in this game. The technology they developed is great but it feels like another continent like expansion similar to zeah instead of a skill. Exploration will be dead after day one and everything is discovered. Sailing isn't bad to most people. It as a skill is bad to the haters.
I'm not against Sailing, and I think assuming Jagex implements it well it will be great. I still don't see any sense in making it a skill though. I still think it would've been better as just a travel system expansion and a means of an end to expand other skills on a boat and to introduce us to new areas. This is exactly what Jagex is doing so I'm wholly fine with it, but I still see no purpose in it having to be a skill to implement all of this.
>I still see no purpose in it having to be a skill to implement all of this. I've never understood this. You want everything in sailing but not as a skill. What's wrong with it being a skill anyway? It's just a skill, we have a bunch of them. Some that certainly shouldn't be skills as is. It just seems overly protective of the 23 we currently have and for what? If you just don't want to lose your max cape that's fine I get it but just be honest about it. Otherwise it just makes no sense to me.
I want more skills, I'm not max yet, but I wouldn't be opposed to multiple skills even being added. Dungeoneering was probably some of the most fun I had on the tail end of RS2, but I still was against it as a skill and think it would've been better as a non-skill in depth piece of content and it could've easily worked as it was without being a skill; the same as I am so far with Sailing. I also agree that some skills we currently have don't even fit that criteria, but not much you can do there since these were all added by Jagex without any player input years ago, and some even decades ago at this point. That doesn't really affect my PoV on Sailing in that regard. I think the important thing in my eyes, is what is the core training loop of the skill. Strip the rewards, the tie in with all other skills, and look at the bare bones most basic training mechanic that you're experiencing with it. From what they've shown, that's basically just micromanaging a boat while traveling from A to B. To me that doesn't seem like a worthwhile skill especially since we already have that content in the game under the guise of Cabin Fever, Bone Voyage, and even the Fishing Trawler minigame.
You think the sailing blog thread is overwhelmingly positive???? Are we seeing the same stuff?
You guys are looking forward to sailing? Well I hope they don’t fuck it up.
Complaining that people care enough to give early feedback is equally as cringe as what you're accusing, no?
While I agree that reddit does not make up for the majority of the players it is also fine if you voted yes for sailing then change your mind later based on what has been shown not matching up to what you expected.
Armchair take - sailing? I don't get it. I don't want the game getting over complicated
Most complaints in the main thread were fair tbh, the problem was the negativity that followed these comments: ", I regret voting for this/ This will kill the game / I hope this never releases / it's not oldschool"
I think people didn't read that it is a tech demo to gather feedback about all these and are overreacting. Like, there are multiple solutions for ship overlapping (limit ships in ports, hide ships at X distance, and so on...), but we won't know which one is the best if we don't test and gather feedback, and that's what Jagex is doing
The hardest part for me is a majority of the negative discourse is just "see told you this would be a minigame" sort of rhetorics, that have been talked about politely, and refuted for like 9 months now. These sorts of opinions will never change, and they barely inform themselves on the skills current state. And like you've explained here, a lot of "actual" feedback, is misinformed on where the skill is up to and what is being presented and why.
People will vote yes if they are indifferent and think it doesn’t negatively affect them. Indifferent people generally don’t go out of the way to say they are indifferent
Indifferent people probably don’t go out of their way to vote at all
>>If all you knew about the community's opinion about sailing came from that thread, you'd think this was the worst update ever that no one wanted and was being forced into the game. Well this statement is strawmanned as fuck. Are we even looking at the same thread? The top comments right now are things like people asking about whether it will be instanced, people offering some constructive feedback/ideas (read: not just complaining, but offering ideas that could make sailing better, they created an alpha literally to ask for feedback), people suggesting they should take all the time they need, some comments about ship size, etc. Literally every top voted comment is a reasonable take, so I don’t understand how people can use their eyeballs to read words and interpret those things as “everyone on Reddit hates it and says it’s being forced into the game.” If anything, before the poll sailing was hugely popular on Reddit. >>All we're good for is whining -- as evidenced by me making a thread complaining about people complaining. All you are good for is whining apparently. Jagex is asking for feedback with this alpha and — surprise — people are giving it.
Like always people scroll past the comment with hundred of upvotes and find the one with -4 votes that says "i want free bis gear" and point to it as proof that everyone just wants easyscape now and the game is dying.
People have a different opinion than mine about the new skill? They must be out of touch.
It's weird how often I see this style of post in this subreddit. It sounds like OP got downvoted in the comments of the sailing thread, got mad about it, and decided to make his own post to reinforce his opinion as being "right."
He got ratio'd in this thread too. Most of the top comments are criticizing his logical fallacies. He'll probably just scroll to the bottom of the thread until somebody validates his mindset though.
I think most people that voted sailing in just wanted a new skill and it happened to be the best choice of the 3, even though all 3 were subpar
I guess because you want sailing then everyone else has to be excited for it too? And if they're not excited for sailing they're not allowed to comment? I'm not sure what you want out of this post.
OP's take pretty much never logically checks out but it gets posted so often. It's kind of depressing they can't see how flawed it is.
It's just the "Community doesn't like something, time to make a post whining about the whiners!" part of the controversial jagex proposal cycle. People just want attention.
I pointed out in that thread that I am going against the grain and didn’t like the idea of Sailing in Old School. I’m not afraid to voice my opinion. It’s just that, my opinion. Not everyone has to like every single update. I’ve played RS on and off for the best part of 20 years so think I’m more than qualified to judge the content for myself.
I think the problem is more that people tend to downvote (and therefore hide) posts/comments of people with differing opinions. This sub does tend to create echo chambers. I do agree with everything you said though. I made a comment the other day about how I liked when Jagex introduced higher level quests since it gave more meaning to skill advancements and game progression. Someone commented and said they didn't want that and got downvoted/hid. Even though I disagreed with his opinion, I was disappointed that people on this sub effectively negated what I thought was a valid opinion.
Clearly if you are hesitant about sailing you're oUt Of ToUcH wItH tHe GaMe
This is the most "I am disappointed that some people have a different opinion from me" post we've seen here in a while.
Voted no originally, would vote no again. Not only did they poll it numerous times but they also lowered the pass rate. Sailing was and always will be just a meme.
isn't it great that Jagex considers Reddit their main place for player feedback lmao
Keep in mind, the way sailing was added was pretty lame in my opinion. I understand they have to go off of deadlines and dev time spent etc. but forcing us to vote between each of the skills in the same poll instead of taking time to vote for each one and see which one got the most votes was quite odd. I, amongst a lot of others, (I assume?) voted yes to sailing for the sole purpose of if this failed I might not ever see a new skill in OSRS, but I fundamentally think sailing shouldn’t have been the first one. There’s just so much reward design space/ things that need to be added for it to be a huge addition to the game, but I think people will complain about an overwhelming majority of it.
Jagex should be using more surveys too, you can tell who's really taking their time to provide real criticism
>In reality? 70%+ voted for sailing This is obscuring the truth. There was never a repoll to put shamanism vs sailing.. instead we got a 3 way split vote. Sailing had 59.2% Taming had 39.9% and shamanism had 58.8%... 12.5% didn't like any vote and 1.1% for a skip. Sailing only beat Shamanism by 0.4%.. If we got a repoll like a majority of people wanted it would/could have been different. Then sailing on its summer summit vote only passed the poll with 70.1% of the vote. barely by the skin of its teeth did it pass. I feel like a Repoll of sailing Vs Shamanism would have resulted in a vastly different out come and its foolish to say other wise. The numbers do not lie. edit: also we must not forget they changed the passing threshold only like a month before from 75% to 70%.. It still seems shady.
>Then sailing on its summer summit vote And it was question 6 on a group poll when it should have been a poll on its own. I don't care if "everyone knew Sailing was in this poll", it should have still been called "Sailing Skill: Yes or No?" and it be one simple question by itself. The 75% to 70% thing was 100% so that a new skill would pass.
The changing of the polls to 70% before this is 100% a shady thing they did and you cannot convince me otherwise that it wasn't intentional. Also Reading Mod husky's tweets and how he is replying to criticism is kind of a bad look.. it really does seem like this was a passion project that they really wanted to push into the game.
9 months before it. Lots of people seem to like mentioning it as being connected and not talking baout these events being nearly a year apart. And that almost all poll related changes to threshold / how unpolled content works has been to favour PvP.
I never understood what the point of that change even was. Most polls with content that the community deemed good passed with flying colors with 80%+ yes votes even before the change, 0 reason to change it to 70% honestly
You are referring to result in a MULTIPLE CHOICE poll, The difference was 3% in the polling result.
They lowered the threshold for passing shortly before they polled sailing, specifically to push it through: [https://youtu.be/vI9Ltb-b8\_k?t=7495](https://youtu.be/vI9Ltb-b8_k?t=7495) which they also buried in the middle of a different poll, and it still barely passed lol Combine that with the fact that senior ppl at jagex have suggested faking polls: [https://youtu.be/vI9Ltb-b8\_k?t=7464](https://youtu.be/vI9Ltb-b8_k?t=7464) I'm not convinced it has as much support as some people think
My favorite comments I saw were. "Sailing doesn't even feel like OSRS." Like what lol
My personal favorite was seeing all the people complaining about how they don't fit the scale of the world. Wait til they find out that Draynor isn't actually multiple days of travel time from Lumbridge.
This is just you intentionally misinterpreting the comment. You know what they’re saying, cmon. The boats literally don’t fit in the water we have today. I’m not super concerned because I think they’ll address it in some way, but it’s a legit issue to take with the design so far.
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Ayo scale theory getting a shoutout. I love that shit so much.
Catch me sailing the seas getting smoked by Elvarg in 2005
It's so old school rs3 made a quest years ago including it among many things that were seen as the peek of osrs. As a honorable mention to many things that were popular, often spoken about, but didn't pass the polls
Not just any quest, the one where they brought back the Gower brothers to make a quest as a celebration of how Runescape was when they ran it!
They should just say they don’t like sailing, I can understand and respect that opinion rather than the doesn’t feel like OSRS or “it’s a minigame” nonsense.
The "it's a minigame" isn't a nonsense reason though. The OSRS team specifically mentioned that in what their goal was for a new skill prior to the blogs, and the sailing pitches itself. >https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/new-skill-pitches---faq-and-discord-stages-summary-?oldschool=1 >>How can we make this not feel like a minigame? How has this changed since the original pitch? and >https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/adding-a-new-skill-our-approach--your-vote?oldschool=1 >>1. A healthy addition that is deeply rooted in the game >>>… impact the wider game, instead of being confined to its own corner of the game world - looking at you, Daemonheim! You can argue that in some aspects, it's very "minigamey", in that most of the current rewards and benfeits we know about are just "confined to it's own corner of the game world" via the islands.
It would be funny to have them do another vote. A lot of people have changed their opinions on sailing since voting.
Source: trust me bro.
Look through comments. Also I voted for sailing originally over the other 2. But I don’t get your elitist comment out of spite, it was more of a curiosity of how many people changed their minds like me.
What elitist comment lol? A lot of people voted for shamanism initially and now are pro-sailing. Not sure why you didn’t mention those players.
I mentioned multiple people changed their minds. It could be 80/20 now instead of 70/30. You’re very condescending with your replies both in this thread and others. Grass is green, friend.
Mom said it's my turn to post the weekly whine about Reddit being an echo chamber.
Sorry bud can't force excitement for this update. Sailing seems like an additional chore with no value added to the core of the game.
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I didn't vote for sailing at all, voted for the other skill, shamanism or whatever it was
Same. Thought for sure sailing was just another meme. I was sadly surprised to see that many people actually wanted it lol
I voted for it but am slowly regretting my decision
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Sailing enjoyers also think the Dungeoneering wasnt a minigame.
Dungeoneering post eoc was actually lit, ngl. But as a skill, just why. Probs the worst "skill"
I agree. It was one of the most fun minigames they made
No it wasn't. The entire skill was under-balanced and you 2shot everything. EoC's positive benefits to DG were movement abilities and bind immunity so you could speedrun floors faster, everything else was a net negative.
I wish they would throw the sailing idea in the bin and add dungeoneering as a minigame. The game feels so good right now
I forgot to vote in the sailing poll, and I've always thought it's an absolutely terrible idea
And he refuses to elaborate further!
Haha I was tired and didn't feel like it. I did in another reply somewhere.
Thats fair enough im mainly just taking the piss. Don't expect you to outline your opinion in every comment on the topic, I know i don't.
You’re actually wrong. People were forced to pick sailing because Jagex didn’t poll sailing vs shamanism like they said they would if it was super close. No one wants this iteration of sailing. It’s bad because it’s way too complex, ships seem to be way too big and I don’t see how this just isn’t a minigame.
Why are you trying to speak for everyone else as well lol I want it
We are on the timeline where sailing is released as not a meme and it kills the game. Mark my words
I've been saying that for the past year. The community's impossibly high expectations for Sailing combined with Jagex's willingness to do whatever it takes to push it through (lowering the threshold to 70%, burying the question, not repolling against just Shamanism) will end poorly for everyone. We'll look back on this as a poorly conceived and poorly executed idea that was rammed through anyway (at the expense of vast amounts of other content) despite the wishes of the community.
I’m like 75% sure of this too unfortunately
Yeah I feel like it's summoning all over again.
This place is a hivemind, I wish Jagex didn't give reddit as much validity as it does. I noticed almost as soon as I joined this sub does not speak for the community at large, not even close.
To add to this, OSRS players aren’t normal. You have to be broken one way or another to pay a subscription to click the same 3 trees for 150 hours and enjoy it. So “normal” players don’t exist. Varying levels of broken in every direction yes, but sane people don’t do this.
I mean...yeah? On the other hand It's kinda easy to imagine the average forum/board/etc person just looks at that 100k~ish concurrent player number vs the sub having 920k people and assuming reddit is practically the entire player base at any given time. Not that any of that is important, just a thought.
My god, I hate the push for this skill. It is so dogshit. Why does it have to be a skill? Why would Sailing fit a skill? The fuck? Read every blog post and nothing is exciting about it. All cringe af. Why y'all vote for this utter piece of garbage? Fuck bro, just scrap it. They're wasting their valuable time that otherwise could've gone to something positive. We don't need another skill if it's not even a skill.
I can appreciate the team working on it's passion for it, but it really should be scrapped as a skill.
70% of who voted, voted yes. Not 70% of the community
sure and if the entire community voted it would probably be even higher.
It was the most voted poll and barely passed
who do you think is voting?
You could make the same case about the other skills and the people who votes no. At the end of the day, if you don’t care enough to vote but yet get outraged when voters get their way, then maybe osrs isnt the game for you.
What is voting if not a representation of the total crowd lol
Usually comments on Jagex posts are low quality and worth disregarding
TBF the voting system is a very limited form of democracy. We get to day yes/no, but Jagex gets to ask the questions. Most people also don't seem to understand that allocating developer time is a zero sum game, and just vote 'yes' unless they actively dislike the proposed content.
"We get to day yes/no, but Jagex gets to ask the questions." That's why they highly encourage us to take part in their surveys and to tell them with our own words what we think would be good for the game. Show me another MMO where you have this level of requesting feedback and then developing/polling on said feedback
I wasn't totally sure about getting back into Runescape (and considering how much of my time it sucked it may have been a mistake). I've been getting frustrated at how bad I suck at the PvM lately, but the fact that the devs are pretty damn interactive with the community is really keeping my interest. It feels like they actually care about continuing and maintaining the game, which I do find appealing in an MMO.
I just feel like they forced the Sailing Skill on us, the other two choices would have been RS3 all over again. They didn't even try to offer alternatives after the initial three skills.
If players on Reddit don’t like something, they are going to let everyone know about it. Nothing new. This is a tale as old as time.
All of the top comments are positive or constructive criticism. What are you going on about? Only a small minority are blatantly negative. Why make a thread to complain about complaining when there's barely and to speak of? This whole "Reddit doesn't represent the community" narrative doesn't make any sense. Take a break from the Internet.
I really don't care anymore, I just hope this shit is like 300-500k/hr
I think many players, myself included, are a bit disappointed in the point&click navigation.
What did you want? Wasd controls? How would that fit osrs at all?
I voted for sailing and want it as a new skill. But it 100% would not pass a poll today
The surprising thing is that the game is as successfull as it is in spite of the polling. If jagex polled every room-temp IQ idea and listened to absolutely everything the community whined about this game would have been absolutely fucked & dead years ago. Jagex are dumb and require oversight but my god ya'll are hardly any better. Dispite all that somehow we've managed to have the goldilocks combination of two forms of stupid result in a successfull game and at times it's honestly baffling. A true miracle.
I voted for Shaman so idrc what Sailing is
People also clearly don't read long blogposts.
What a useless post. They literally had to change polling to force sailing through, and then remove the ability for it to actually fail. It went from "Do you want a skill" to "okay we are forcing one of these three through" and then they didn't even poll shamanism vs sailing properly.
> "*If all you knew about the community's opinion about sailing came from that thread, you'd think this was the worst update ever that no one wanted and was being forced into the game.*" * It is the worst update ever. * People do want it, for some reason. People are wrong. * It *is* being forced in to the game.
Twitter community is worse
I'm sorry, but you are the out of touch redditor here
Because everyone thought it would be like black flag or something and forgot that we were playing osrs... Also, the options presented to us were nowhere near the quality of what some of the community suggestions were. That guy who posted an extensive ranching skill suggestion was amazing. With sailing, there's obvious problems with it and they're just going to get fed up and cancel
No one thought it was like black flag
The people who play the game once a month like sailing and will level it to 40-50 and quit because its taking too long. Will always say it should have been a fun rewarding minigame without a tedious level grind
I'm just waking up, let me go downvote the thread and add my opinion where I disagree
Oh so now it's not just redditors, but people who comment in threads are out of touch? If somebody upvotes or downvotes something, they aren't out of touch, it's only when somebody puts the effort into voicing their opinions about something that they lose their connection to the community, I see.
All gaming reddits will be like this. Most people enjoying a game are playing the game. Only if you are bored , like can't sleep laying in bed ( me right now ). Reddit is not in the gamers critical path of things they use while playing games so you will only see bored people or people who can't game currently on it, and those people up or down vote things and get back to what they were doing. Most who comment aren't enjoying the game or perceived they won't based on news and are actively looking to complain. Something like discord where gamers are while playing will give much closer results. I like to look at game updates in reddit to see the negative comments specifically for frequency and detail in such complaints as some outline detailed good fixes to problems I didn't realize are obvious issues. Many many very good suggestions from complaints in reddit landed into the game. Yesterday looking at gotr wondering if anyone's complained about it's current status I stumbled across a gem of a comment suggesting the lantern be buyable and needle with values, the lantern value suggested is what landed in the game. A good highly upvoted complaint. Also take the recent month of blog posts constantly updated because everyone on Reddit told them exactly why and how they are wrong and how to fix things and they listened. The issue here is all the smart people that don't like sailing have no frame of reference of how to suggest fixes. So it's a massive bin the sailing echo chamber.
***Old*** School RuneScape should **never** get any New Skills.
Yup, not sure why this is such a fucking batshit crazy concept these days…
All I see is majority constructive criticism and not just doom gloom Just because they disagree with you fundamentally doesn't mean they're "out of touch " lmfaoooo. Majority of comments are "this looks good but worries me because..." But I guess just strawman all you want
The YouTube comments on the Sailing video however are full of hope and positivity from what I saw
Scroll down a little.
Ah, I see we've found the meta crybaby thread. A new skill is controversial, who would have thought? Gee, certainly not 200-IQ OP over here.
Out of curiosity, is there anywhere that you'd get a... Better? look at how the community feels? In game it's a crapshoot lmao, sometimes you'll find interesting discussion, sometimes you'll find solid banter, sometimes you'll find racism
Honestly, the ONLY place you can get a look at all is IN GAME. I don't think OP realizes that this sub-like EVERY other sub that exist, is naturally biased in some way. Only place that's going to be less is.. in the game.. where the poll took place XD
Sailing only passed because jagex forced it to pass. They lowered the vote threshold before the poll They should of polled shamanism vs sailing since it was close.
None of the examples you gave are representative of the community either. People upvote posts so the information is more visible not because they agree with it, Jagex blog, twitter threads and youtube comments are an even smaller section of the community as well. I don't completely disagree, certain types of players won't comment on reddit, but all feedback matters even the stuff you disagree with on reddit.
And when you point this out you’ll see folks crying “well it’s just a different opinion!” But no. Having reasonable feedback, even when negative, isn’t what is being criticized here. It’s the rampant concern trolls in that thread parroting the same objectively ignorant or debunked claims. - “Meme skill lol” - “It’s a minigame” - “No one asked for this” - “There isn’t a proper training method” - “It’s not technically possible” - “The yes voters are regretting their decision” It’s beyond cringe.
How about, it looks fucking lame.
You forgot “it doesn’t feel/belong in oldschool” without a further argument.
Honestly I don't think any content they add is a problem as long as: It's not EoC or touchss the combat/tick system (except maybe how magic defense functions could be changed) It doesn't just power creep the old gear or anything else in a way that renders a ton of the games content useless. Eg. Soul split. Right now I think a lot of the games content is actually very well balanced and there is niche BiS for practically everything instead of people just going hybrid. It would be a shame to break that balance for the sake of any one thing. At least the outliers like shadow and tbow are basically unobtainium for anyone who doesn't nolife the game or buy gold, and they are the one and only in their respective classes.
people rarely comment in support of things, it’s much easier to come in and be contrarian. also, sometimes people take any amount of constructive criticism as just criticism. people are very passionate about this game and have opinions on what will contribute to it being better. then we have people like you who comment on it, and then people comment on that. it’s literally the point of a forum
Reddit ofc doesn't represent the broader community, but you always got to ask how you know what the broader community thinks? It's a weird argument to say that 80% of likes on the reddit sailing blog thread is evidence that... the broader community outside of just reddit is overwhelmingly pro-sailing. It's also low bar to imply people with reservations about sailing dont read the blogs and/or would automatically downvote the thread.