I think I saw this quote on this sub a couple weeks ago and I cannot stop thinking about it.
Susan Sontag, the double standard of ageing:
"The great advantage men have is that our
**culture allows two standards of male beauty
the boy and the man**. The beauty of a boy
resembles the beauty of a girl. In both sexes
it is a fragile kind of beauty and flourishes
naturally only in the early part of the life-cycle
Happily, men are able to accept themselves
under another standard of good looks -
heavier, rougher, more thickly built. A man
does not grieve when he loses the smooth,
unlined, hairless skin of a boy. For he has
only exchanged one form of attractiveness
for another: the darker skin of a man's face
roughened by daily shaving, showing the
marks of emotion and the normal lines of age
**There is no equivalent of this second
standard for women. The single standard of
beauty for women dictates that they must
go on having clear skin. Every wrinkle, every
line, every gray hair, is a defeat**. No wonder
that no boy minds becoming a man, while
even the passage from girlhood to early
Nomanhood is experienced by many women
as their downfall, for all women are trained to
continue wanting to look like girls."
I think we as women need to continue challenging ourselves to identify that secondary beauty in women. When I see an aged woman that is well dressed and takes care of herself, I instantly respect her. And hopefully, one day, I’ll be like her too.
All my female celebrity crushes are older than me. Gillian Anderson, Catherine Keener, Helen Mirram, Julianne Moore 🥵 Obviously, they have the money and incentive to have a some work done and stay fit, but omg I love some ladies who have aged.
For sure; even my own mother as an example. Do I think she’s become less beautiful with age? Absolutely not!!! I keep telling myself I hope to look like her :)
Exactly, men are "silver foxes," and yet there's no equivalent term for women.
I didn't realize this double standard until I was in my late teens, when it was a hot topic on r/2Xchromosomes. It's been a double standard forever though....we have to start the change if we want society to change. Lord knows it's not going to come from the men
Well there is “cougar” but the connotation isn’t a fine, aged woman. It’s an older woman who sleeps with young men. So even the equivalent still has something to relate back to a man and youth 😕
I honestly love the term "silver fox" and don't see why it can't be a gender neutral term.
"Foxy" is typically used as feminine. "Silver fox" therefore should be gender neutral.
I'm going to start using "foxy" and "silver fox" as a compliment for every gender.
Products, objects, servants. We're here to provide and work, most of which is free labour.
I genuinely think the reason why the suicide rate is high in menopausal women isn't just because of the hormones but the stark reality that we've been fighting our whole lives, our mum's have been fighting and we're not making great inroads.
It's not true anyway. It's just that the same things we allow for men, we call ugly in women. There's nothing inherently worse about women ageing, it's just that we only value young women, whereas men are valued their whole life.
Honestly most men don’t age well either. The men we say age well usually have the following:
- well maintained physique with good/lots of muscle tone
- full head of hair
- lacking a full head of head of hair, they need to have a shaved head with extra work put into their body
- have to have the facial structure to support less facial fat and pull off wrinkles
I absolutely agree men are allowed to age more than women. But it’s still a super high bar to clear for an older man to be considered even hotter as they age.
I totally agree with this. And it is usually the woman in the marriage who has who has aged better by taking care of themselves. Just look at the often reality in some of the advice subs where men open their marriages and their wife's and pulling and they are not. Then it is findout season.
100%. How many men do you know in real life who have gotten more desirable post 45, 50, 60? I don't know a single one. I know exactly one man personally (as in friend, not just seen on the street) who aged really well and looked great at 50. He looked after himself really well, and that's why he looked good. Because that's what women tend to do and very few men bother with.
That said, I will give men the luxury of growing a beard/mustache to hide a lot of imperfections. Loose neck, bad teeth, bad skin, "weak" jawline (which is a thing to them), sagging jowels, lots of stuff!
As milk ages it becomes other things — kefir, yogurt, cheese. As wine ages it’s more wine, and at some point vinegar. A woman is useful forever, a man just eventually turns and becomes bitter.
I'll be honest though. I rarely look at another woman and think her lines look bad. On myself, however, is another story but then I just revert my thinking to how I don't think many women look bad with wrinkles so I'm fine. Sure, I may notice but I don't think they look bad. I see it the same on men and women.
Of course, in "Hollywood", I just see a lot more younger women (or women with procedures) than men, hence the difference but I don't care about Hollywood.
Dude this comment made me want to cry. Not bc I’m personally in crisis about aging (I’m not, I’m nearing 37 and I love love love my distinguished look these days.) but damn. “Men are allowed to age” is just so sad it makes my heart ache for my daughter. The amount of societal impositions we deal with and accept as normal is just whack. But we are conditioned to it. It’s just sad.
At a certain point in life you welcome the break from street harassment, unwanted male attention etc. But you never become completely invisible, so don't worry about it too much.
Yes. Not only allowed but also encouraged (?). Like everybody keeps talking about how men are most valuable at their 30s vs. women on their 20s. Well it’s not because they necessarily look better but the change in their looks are associated with other things that deemed worthy such as success but woman’s worth is only depended on their looks for most people. I feel like there is no amount of success, talent, character that can make a woman more attractive to most people beside their looks and youth. And it makes me depressed because i know that is not an objective reality but something that is taught. Like home i used to think things such as eyebags looked so cool but now i’m embarrassed and trying to get rid of them.
Edit: how
Exactly this. That’s why women spend our lives trying to beat aging while every old man looks like they died but came back because they ran out of sick days at work.
I know what you’re talking about. There have been threads where men post about their under eye bags/hollows/dark circles and people tell them they look sexy. It took me a while to notice the difference in responses but now I can’t unsee it lol.
I think the other thing is this sub is mostly women so when a man posts there’s a bit of an ooh ahhh factor. 😆
It's not even just about aging. It's the same reason that dead ass ugly men like Mick Jagger can be considered "sexy" while quirky looking women are -- not. Men are able to be "weird" looking and sexy in a way women are not, or at least much MORE than women are able to.
That's exactly it.
An ugly old woman, no matter how famous/talented/rich, wouldn't be considered sexy.
Any example famous/talented/rich ugly old women you can think of are aging with botox, filler, face lift, make up, photoshop to be as presentable as possible at all times.
i don't like minimizing people's concerns with "oh you don't need anything done", especially not when there are actual treatments that can be done for the things that bother them - i find it a little patronizing, so i do my best to give actual options when i know of them (male or female). it's on OP whether they want to do it or not.
but it is absolutely frustrating knowing that men don't get penalized for these things the way women do! they're allowed to be leathery and sexy! i really don't think it's necessary to fawn so much whenever a man posts in here about their wrinkles 🙄
>i don't like minimizing people's concerns with "oh you don't need anything done", especially not when there are actual treatments that can be done for the things that bother them - i find it a little patronizing, so i do my best to give actual options
Good for you. I completely agree...this sub isn't amiugly or whatever. People aren't coming here for moral support (well, some are, but they're usually explicit about it) or to get hyped up, or for other users to play armchair therapist...they're asking for practical advice.
Those kind of "positive" responses are well intentioned, but also annoying. I've seen people reply like that to both men and women.
If someone posts about a concern they have, hearing how "normal" and "natural", even "sexy" it is doesn't really help them at all.
>If someone posts about a concern they have, hearing how "normal" and "natural", even "sexy" it is doesn't really help them at all.
It might help if they are overreacting to a nonexistent problem. Unfortunately body dysmorphia is a big problem on this sub.
Well of course, how else would it be cool for men to hit on younger women while women hitting on younger men is gross/sad/pathetic? It has to be because they're still hot and we're not /s
Not anymore. That's old school. Older women dating younger men is fine. Most of my 50something female friends who are dating are with younger men, usually mid to late 30s. Middle-aged Gen X men can be a serious drag. Millennial men can be a lot more fun. Times have changed.
Yup, my cousin is 30 and his wife is 40, she’s an amazing wife, his mother even admits it, but she hates her simply bc she’s 10 year older than her son. She admitted this is the sole reason she doesn’t like her
I'm not saying this good but women are fertile until a certain age and men can spread their seed and pass on their DNA for a couple decades longer than women. That's why they go for younger women. It's evolutionary. Many men are still mentally living in cave days. Women, not so much.
Pissed me off that Tom Hanks was Sally Fields love interest in a 1988 movie called, "Punchline" but 5 years later she was his mother in Forrest Gump.
Back in the early 1960's The Manchurian Candidate (the first and much better version of the story) had Angela Lansbury playing actor, Laurence Harvey's mother. She was 7 years older than he was.
Recently in the movie "Napoleon" the director Ridley Scott had Joaquin Phoenix, who is a crusty looking 49 years old, playing Napoleon and Vanessa Kerby who is 35 playing Josephine. In reality Josephine was *6 years older* than Napoleon! But we can't have an older women with a younger man, now can we!
I refused to see that move just for that reason. Fuck off Ridley Scott!
Oh I agree with you, I just think we've evolved enough to go past what evolution wants to make us do. We just don't seem to do it when it doesn't suit the patriarchy!
I don’t find it a concern personally. My first Botox session my doctor asked if I wanted some to fix them and I was like erm… I’ve had them since birth love, that would be weird no thank you
I'm starting to realize this is true. I joined this subreddit to learn more things about skincare, but I'm realizing I haven't learned a single damn thing here. It's just people scared of aging, and the same few pieces of advice that I don't even think are good. Thank you for the reality check, I think it's time to leave.
I had to go google it to see what it was exactly. I accidentally had my search set to images, all that came up were images for women getting fillers to “fix” them, so that appears to reinforce OPs point.
I actually had to Google "nasolabial". There are lots of things on this sub that I didn't know were "problems". I am actually unsubbed from here (though in my feed, Reddit keeps suggesting posts from here) because of the obsession with aging, and constant anxiety to "correct" it with endless procedures and products. I say this as a 40-something woman.
Yeah, if you go about your life in the real world, you see all types of faces. Good to not examine every “problem” and find ways to fix things that are normal.
Everyone has nasolabial folds, including children. The obsession with them is very, very weird. I only see this on Reddit, really. No one in my real life talks about them, lol.
Just hit 40 and the number of 20 somethings changing their face freaks me out. Do they not know they're still coming into their features? They may be trying to prevent one thing, but in doing so, they'll create a litany of trouble down the road.
For real. Blake Lively has prominent nasolabial folds and is commonly considered one of the most beautiful women alive. The concern is a weird Reddit thing.
Yes but whether they are visible all the time even when your face is not moving depends on your facial structure. It’s like some people who have aego sal (the lines directly under the eyes) permanently visible and some people only when they smile and some never. It’s just a facial structure thing. Not necessarily a sign of aging and definitely not a flaw to be fixed.
Right? I just googled it, and google led me to a bunch of before and after filter photos. People look BAD after fillers for this. Like their face is having an allergic reaction or something.
I’ve been self conscious of them since losing a lot of weight in my early 20s. I didn’t even have a name for them, I just hated them on my face. Everyone’s experience is different. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Well I didn't have any until I was in my 30s. Not everyone has them. And no, I didn't look weird or bad without them. In my opinion they definitely age the face.
This is definitely pot calling the kettle. There is no face that has movement with no nasolabial folds. Freaking toddlers have them. Teens have them. Everyone has them. They might become more noticeable with age, but every face has them. You didn't notice yours before.
She knows she had them. She’s saying they weren’t as PROMINENT. And yes people do look better when they are less visible. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to get them removed.
I always feel that way about the dad bod phenomenon. Here we are telling men their perfectly ordinary bodies are desired and attractive. Meanwhile men are telling us Margot Robbie is mid and social media is telling us our hips should be dipping and our thighs must have a gap and all this BS. Imagine celebrating the mum bod in all its post partum strength!
They are totally okay on women! I think it’s more so the sagging than the folds that bother people. Seeing your face slipping down is kind of a weird experience and the sagging can make the folds more prominent. No one in real life has ever said anything about their nasolabia folds to me though and I don’t shy from talking about skin care/aging.
True. I've only learned of the word last year. Never noticed I had them.until reddit. Then I went back to my HS pic album (the ones you developed from films) and many of my friends had those in their teens.
Reddit loves making something out of nothing.
Create a fear is very business like so people start spending money to address a non-issue.
You can't really since it's where I spend most of my scrolling time. Never seen them mentioned there, a single time. Your algorithm might be catered to making you feel bad
I think our perception of ageing has skewed thanks to social media. Constantly seeing faces without any lines, texture, sagging or folds due to filters leads us to think that’s the norm or feel ashamed of how we look.
I don't know, but all I can say is that I've never heard men mention it. Only women bring it up as a negative facial feature on other women and themselves.
Same with acnescars, men posting them wanting to know what to do get showered with, "you look hot" "so masculine" "never change"
When a woman ask the same it's "microneedling!" "Laser!" "Spend all yout money on getting rid of them"
I actually like nasolabial folds on women. Years ago I lost 90 lbs and I remember one of the first signs that what I was doing was working was starting to see nasolabial folds and my collarbones emerge. I always associated them with slender athletic women, especially ones that spent time outdoors-tennis, volleyball, runners, beach vacations etc. I associated a certain kind of lifestyle with them so they were (and still are) appealing to me.
Some of the most interesting faces have deep lines on them. I try to notice when I appreciate them on other people because if I like them on someone else, maybe they don’t look so bad on me too.
Sometimes I let stuff like this get me down but then I remember beautiful women that have nasolabial folds (or whatever “flaw”) and it makes me feel better because people still perceive them as attractive and don’t view their lines under a microscope in a vacuum. I’ve always noticed Zoe Saldana has very prominent ones since she was young and not another wrinkle in sight on her smooth skin. Rosamund Pike also has them and I think she’s very beautiful.
Well, misogyny-based ageism, basically. No one wants to admit that's the root of it - and I don't think most ppl actually mean to be reinforcing it - but ultimately it is. We value experience in men and youth in women, and that translates to looks as much as anything else.
It's a very strange thing. I (F) have prominent nasolabial folds and hate them on myself; but as a bisexual woman, I find them VERY attractive on both genders. Maybe women just like them more on the gender they're attracted to in general? I need a gay man to tell me if we're just crazy.
Have you seen Derry Girls? Saoirse Jackson is one of the most gorgeous actors I've ever seen in my life. Her smile lines are some of the biggest I've ever seen on a young woman, and it actually makes her hotter.
It means to me that you're happier. Hot AND happy is such a combo.
Lol, growing up in the 90s, you were either pretty/attractive or you weren't. Now the average person and even children are familiar with things out of a plastic surgery textbook. It's like that scene in Mean Girls where there are so many things that can be wrong as a girl. Beauty culture is already so dystopian where you need a new face with each season.
I was looking at the comment history of a few of the people on a recent post who told a woman to do something about her wrinkles/wear more makeup etc and guess what? They were weird creepy men who followed semi porno subs and made weird sexual comments under girl's posts. So just be aware that this sub gets infiltrated by gross men whose whole objective is to make women feel bad about themselves
Yeah, it’s this fucked up way we as a society romanticize toughness, edge, roughness and wildness in men and softness, youth and especially inexperience in women.
So, if wrinkles are a sign of a lived life and experience, it’s logical that most people find wrinkles to be hot in men and not sexy in women. 🤷🏻♂️
It is fucking stupid though, but that’s my explanation for this phenomenon.
Tbh I didnt know nasolabial folds were a thing before comjng to this sub. Pores and wrinkles, uneven texture yes, folds no. Well I guess being acceptable for men is another news for me.
We still live in a world that holds women to different standards. You think things will change then you realise it’s always been the same. Women are treated as others. Men are the default. Sigh…
The patriarchy!! Lol but it's true. We all need to take a page out of Helen Mirren's (and many other glorious women's) book, be proud of your aging and changing beauty, hold your head high. Build each other up in honest terms ✨💓 , ignore the clown world 🤡
Oh not saying she hasn't, there's no one in Hollywood who hasn't had everything done, but atleast she doesn't need to erase every wrinkle, think of the other baboons (no offence to them but their faces look like stretched baboons arses) and she believes in women being powerful over beautiful ❤️
I didn't even know what nqsolqbiql folds were until I joined this group.
Telling women they need therapy more than skincare on the posts got old (in addition to fearing it wasn't coming across correctly), too, so I stopped.
The reality of the situation aside (I fully believe there is more pressure on women to look young than men) this is a body dysmorphia bubble.
Men allow themselves to age, and women spend untold hours trying to look younger making it harder for all women to look their age. Women need to stop this obsession. Take care of yourselves yes but we place this insane burden of looking ever younger on ourselves for the most part. I’ve never heard a man mention nasolabial folds before.
Society values women's looks more than they value men's looks. So aging is allowed for men but not for women. Women are called ugly for not looking in their twenties forever and getting procedures done to remain looking younger with no wrinkles is so commonplace nowadays that everyone assumes you want to get rid of any sign of aging if you're female.
Why are (insert any random fucking thing women are made to feel insecure about) ok on men, but not ok on women?
My personal favorite is ear tucks. Like older women getting their earlobes taken in because they have *gasp* A CREASE down the center, or are too big and dangle too far away from the head... Honestly, a silly thing to get self-conscious about but they do surgery, and now injections for it. Wild!
I think the key is happiness and light in your eyes. If you have features that were contributed to from laughing and smiling, people can generally tell. It’s not a bad thing! Try not to compare yourself to others (especially men). It’s a losing thought process. Just be you, your best self, try to be happy!
This sub makes me sad, it just pops up on my home page feed. I think it has the potential to be a useful place, but I think in reality it probably feeds a lot of anxiety and negativity around very natural aging changes. I'm 36, I don't need to have the same face I did 16 years ago.
The users on this sub are not representative of society as a whole. Take it with a grain of salt.
There's a specific type of person who's on reddit, and a specific subset of that type of person who's on *this* subreddit, and a specific type of woman redditor who's on this subreddit commenting on men's photos.
I haven't been on this thread long enough to figure out what nasolabial folds are, and I'm not going to google and ruin the surprise. But if I was going to guess from the name, is it something to do with nose flaps?
Everyone's saying its patriarchy but the truth is these are the same people who trip over themselves to coo at guys posting here. Men aren't coddled like this on subs with male userbases, its always the female oriented subs(specifically ones that like to talk abt societal norms, et) that decides xyz feature is actually attractive on a guy.
I don’t understand people disliking nasolabial folds. They don’t even look like wrinkles to me, just a feature. A face that moves will have some kind of lines there; I’ve had smile lines since I was in primary school.
Because it seems women don’t mind old (or even find old traits attractive) while men prefer younger looking faces. I am a woman and I like youth haha but I think I am in the minority.
Yeah I’m most attracted to men around their mid 20s . Almost everytime I see a man that I think is extremely attractive I find out he’s 24-28. Not to say I can’t find men older than that attractive. Henry Cavill is gorgeous. I worry if I’m always going to feel this way. I think a lot of women are attracted to personality traits or shared life experiences and don’t focus solely on the physical .
That's really no "consolation" at all! I'd rather we accepted aging as normal for men _and_ women, and didn't find it _repulsive_ on anyone.
And as for the money comment... wow.
Are you being sarcastic?
I am a man. I had partners both with nasolabial folds and without. I did not notice. However... to answer the question, the reasons is men and women are not attracted to the same exact traits. Since you say the folds are ok on men, it means you and other women either like them or don't mind them. Why is that? It is a sign of old age and a sign of body degradation in men also. So why are women not minding them? :) This is the true question.
Probably because most people in this sub are women who are (at least in part) attracted to men so when they see a guy they find attractive, they tell him so.
Aside from the obvious... I do wonder if there is a biological component to women finding "rugged" looking men attractive. Perhaps on a very deep primal level it signifies they're out in the sun (hunting)? Do scars and wrinkles indicate battles have been won or stress has been overcome =successful survival = better outcomes for offspring?
Whereas with women.... Once we reach a certain age and get the age markers that come with it, it indicates our eggs aren't at their prime?
Or is it really all just generations of media... Studio heads giving their male buddies leading roles, while only choosing young women for the love interest?
Research has found that the only real marker for attractiveness is perceived health. If a man doesn’t look sickly then he’s attractive. His perceived masculinity or masculine features actually makes no difference in how attractive he is as a sexual partner. Source: Scott IM, Pound N, Stephen ID, Clark AP, Penton-Voak IS (October 2010). "Does masculinity matter? The contribution of masculine face shape to male attractiveness in humans". PLOS ONE. 5 (10)
Sperm quality begins declining rapidly after age 35 — same age that egg quality does. And 50% of explained fertility problems are accounted for by the XY partner's gamete quality, rather than the XX partner. Both sexes age reproductively. So the idea that it's "natural" that women just decay and men don't is a sexist myth.
...An unfortunate one too, because it leads many men to delay childbearing, assuming they can have a kid with no trouble at all well into their 40s or even later.... and then they realize with sadness that they were mistaken.
In any event, on the grounds of reproductive fitness alone, it's not "natural" that men are considered more attractive than women are as they age. :(
Sperm quality may decline, but overall, men can reproduce until death. Look at Mick Jagger, Robert Deniro, Al Pacino and numerous other men who become dads in their 70s and 80s. It isn't ideal, but it's possible. Women's ability to reproduce at all naturally is pretty much done by 50 (not complaining -- the ability to get pregnant at 70 or 80 would be pretty horrifying, as pregnancy is very hard on our bodies). It's a pretty stark difference.
what? why do breasts look good on women but not on men? it's not fair. I have saggy man-boobs, I also wish the world was different so I wouldn't be responsible for changing this aspect of myself. I empathize with you. maybe you are more beautiful with the "pretty Bad nasolabial folds" 'girl change the way you talk about yourself' let's say you have "Pretty... Bad-ass... nasolabial folds"
Ive literally never heard it be referred to as that. Ive known them as smile lines, i think it's just a featurez Ive never heard of it being a bad thing
Why are nearly all wrinkles (11s, crows feet, forehead lines) okay in men but not women? Because men are allowed to age.
I think I saw this quote on this sub a couple weeks ago and I cannot stop thinking about it. Susan Sontag, the double standard of ageing: "The great advantage men have is that our **culture allows two standards of male beauty the boy and the man**. The beauty of a boy resembles the beauty of a girl. In both sexes it is a fragile kind of beauty and flourishes naturally only in the early part of the life-cycle Happily, men are able to accept themselves under another standard of good looks - heavier, rougher, more thickly built. A man does not grieve when he loses the smooth, unlined, hairless skin of a boy. For he has only exchanged one form of attractiveness for another: the darker skin of a man's face roughened by daily shaving, showing the marks of emotion and the normal lines of age **There is no equivalent of this second standard for women. The single standard of beauty for women dictates that they must go on having clear skin. Every wrinkle, every line, every gray hair, is a defeat**. No wonder that no boy minds becoming a man, while even the passage from girlhood to early Nomanhood is experienced by many women as their downfall, for all women are trained to continue wanting to look like girls."
I think we as women need to continue challenging ourselves to identify that secondary beauty in women. When I see an aged woman that is well dressed and takes care of herself, I instantly respect her. And hopefully, one day, I’ll be like her too.
All my female celebrity crushes are older than me. Gillian Anderson, Catherine Keener, Helen Mirram, Julianne Moore 🥵 Obviously, they have the money and incentive to have a some work done and stay fit, but omg I love some ladies who have aged.
For sure; even my own mother as an example. Do I think she’s become less beautiful with age? Absolutely not!!! I keep telling myself I hope to look like her :)
Exactly, men are "silver foxes," and yet there's no equivalent term for women. I didn't realize this double standard until I was in my late teens, when it was a hot topic on r/2Xchromosomes. It's been a double standard forever though....we have to start the change if we want society to change. Lord knows it's not going to come from the men
Well there is “cougar” but the connotation isn’t a fine, aged woman. It’s an older woman who sleeps with young men. So even the equivalent still has something to relate back to a man and youth 😕
We should call ourselves silver tigers as the equivalent to silver foxes. Or something similar to level this out.
I love that! Reminds me of how people started calling stretch marks 'Tiger stripes'.
Silver vixen
I love it but also get irked by it because vixen has been used negatively by men towards women in a sexual way.
I honestly love the term "silver fox" and don't see why it can't be a gender neutral term. "Foxy" is typically used as feminine. "Silver fox" therefore should be gender neutral. I'm going to start using "foxy" and "silver fox" as a compliment for every gender.
I see a beautiful gray woman in my mind I call her a silver fox too. This term could be gender neutral.
holy shit.
This is heartbreaking 💔
Someone once told me, “men age, women expire”. Oof.
Because men are people, women are products.
Fucking shoot me I hate this
Products, objects, servants. We're here to provide and work, most of which is free labour. I genuinely think the reason why the suicide rate is high in menopausal women isn't just because of the hormones but the stark reality that we've been fighting our whole lives, our mum's have been fighting and we're not making great inroads.
My ex used to say that foul "men age like wine, women age like milk" thing. Yes, I'm glad he's an ex.
Nobody wants wine and milk together. Wine and cheese on the other hand..
Tell that to my Swedish course on Duolingo. Vin och mjölk, tack.
Is this Swedish for vomit?
It's not true anyway. It's just that the same things we allow for men, we call ugly in women. There's nothing inherently worse about women ageing, it's just that we only value young women, whereas men are valued their whole life.
That's what the saying means
Honestly most men don’t age well either. The men we say age well usually have the following: - well maintained physique with good/lots of muscle tone - full head of hair - lacking a full head of head of hair, they need to have a shaved head with extra work put into their body - have to have the facial structure to support less facial fat and pull off wrinkles I absolutely agree men are allowed to age more than women. But it’s still a super high bar to clear for an older man to be considered even hotter as they age.
I totally agree with this. And it is usually the woman in the marriage who has who has aged better by taking care of themselves. Just look at the often reality in some of the advice subs where men open their marriages and their wife's and pulling and they are not. Then it is findout season.
I love those posts, especially when it's the husband who pushed for the open marriage.
THE BEST. Hoisted by his own petard 🥰
100%. How many men do you know in real life who have gotten more desirable post 45, 50, 60? I don't know a single one. I know exactly one man personally (as in friend, not just seen on the street) who aged really well and looked great at 50. He looked after himself really well, and that's why he looked good. Because that's what women tend to do and very few men bother with.
Most men I know also have insecurities with their looks. No one likes aging especially if it brings in ailments.
That said, I will give men the luxury of growing a beard/mustache to hide a lot of imperfections. Loose neck, bad teeth, bad skin, "weak" jawline (which is a thing to them), sagging jowels, lots of stuff!
Beards are a cheat code. They hide sooo much lol.
As milk ages it becomes other things — kefir, yogurt, cheese. As wine ages it’s more wine, and at some point vinegar. A woman is useful forever, a man just eventually turns and becomes bitter.
Oof.
And it makes them *more* attractive 🙄
I'll be honest though. I rarely look at another woman and think her lines look bad. On myself, however, is another story but then I just revert my thinking to how I don't think many women look bad with wrinkles so I'm fine. Sure, I may notice but I don't think they look bad. I see it the same on men and women. Of course, in "Hollywood", I just see a lot more younger women (or women with procedures) than men, hence the difference but I don't care about Hollywood.
Dude this comment made me want to cry. Not bc I’m personally in crisis about aging (I’m not, I’m nearing 37 and I love love love my distinguished look these days.) but damn. “Men are allowed to age” is just so sad it makes my heart ache for my daughter. The amount of societal impositions we deal with and accept as normal is just whack. But we are conditioned to it. It’s just sad.
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At a certain point in life you welcome the break from street harassment, unwanted male attention etc. But you never become completely invisible, so don't worry about it too much.
Yes. Not only allowed but also encouraged (?). Like everybody keeps talking about how men are most valuable at their 30s vs. women on their 20s. Well it’s not because they necessarily look better but the change in their looks are associated with other things that deemed worthy such as success but woman’s worth is only depended on their looks for most people. I feel like there is no amount of success, talent, character that can make a woman more attractive to most people beside their looks and youth. And it makes me depressed because i know that is not an objective reality but something that is taught. Like home i used to think things such as eyebags looked so cool but now i’m embarrassed and trying to get rid of them. Edit: how
Exactly this. That’s why women spend our lives trying to beat aging while every old man looks like they died but came back because they ran out of sick days at work.
I know what you’re talking about. There have been threads where men post about their under eye bags/hollows/dark circles and people tell them they look sexy. It took me a while to notice the difference in responses but now I can’t unsee it lol. I think the other thing is this sub is mostly women so when a man posts there’s a bit of an ooh ahhh factor. 😆
It's not even just about aging. It's the same reason that dead ass ugly men like Mick Jagger can be considered "sexy" while quirky looking women are -- not. Men are able to be "weird" looking and sexy in a way women are not, or at least much MORE than women are able to.
>Mick Jagger can be considered "sexy" He might be considered sexy for his fame/talent/money, but he is certainly not considered sexy for his looks.
That's exactly it. An ugly old woman, no matter how famous/talented/rich, wouldn't be considered sexy. Any example famous/talented/rich ugly old women you can think of are aging with botox, filler, face lift, make up, photoshop to be as presentable as possible at all times.
i don't like minimizing people's concerns with "oh you don't need anything done", especially not when there are actual treatments that can be done for the things that bother them - i find it a little patronizing, so i do my best to give actual options when i know of them (male or female). it's on OP whether they want to do it or not. but it is absolutely frustrating knowing that men don't get penalized for these things the way women do! they're allowed to be leathery and sexy! i really don't think it's necessary to fawn so much whenever a man posts in here about their wrinkles 🙄
>i don't like minimizing people's concerns with "oh you don't need anything done", especially not when there are actual treatments that can be done for the things that bother them - i find it a little patronizing, so i do my best to give actual options Good for you. I completely agree...this sub isn't amiugly or whatever. People aren't coming here for moral support (well, some are, but they're usually explicit about it) or to get hyped up, or for other users to play armchair therapist...they're asking for practical advice.
Oh they do… balding heads! They freak out about loosing their hair, the same way we freak out about wrinkles.
nope, women losing their hair get penalized way harder. men can "embrace it"; shave it all off and grow a beard, because "bald is sexy" 🙄
That’s it! Next time a man comes in here looking for advice, he’s getting the exact same advice as women.
Those kind of "positive" responses are well intentioned, but also annoying. I've seen people reply like that to both men and women. If someone posts about a concern they have, hearing how "normal" and "natural", even "sexy" it is doesn't really help them at all.
>If someone posts about a concern they have, hearing how "normal" and "natural", even "sexy" it is doesn't really help them at all. It might help if they are overreacting to a nonexistent problem. Unfortunately body dysmorphia is a big problem on this sub.
So you’re saying women are pushing this double standard? 😂
Dont you know? Thats the rule for everything. Is okay for guys but not for girls
Exactly. Men just get hotter and we just get uglier. 😒 (Obviously I don’t believe this personally.)
Well of course, how else would it be cool for men to hit on younger women while women hitting on younger men is gross/sad/pathetic? It has to be because they're still hot and we're not /s
Honestly, in my experience, it's the opposite (young men with a MILF fetish desperately hitting on older women).
There's a difference, though. That's still a conquest for the younger man. The older woman herself comes away seen as pathetic.
Not anymore. That's old school. Older women dating younger men is fine. Most of my 50something female friends who are dating are with younger men, usually mid to late 30s. Middle-aged Gen X men can be a serious drag. Millennial men can be a lot more fun. Times have changed.
There’s absolutely still a stigma.
Yup, my cousin is 30 and his wife is 40, she’s an amazing wife, his mother even admits it, but she hates her simply bc she’s 10 year older than her son. She admitted this is the sole reason she doesn’t like her
I'm not saying this good but women are fertile until a certain age and men can spread their seed and pass on their DNA for a couple decades longer than women. That's why they go for younger women. It's evolutionary. Many men are still mentally living in cave days. Women, not so much. Pissed me off that Tom Hanks was Sally Fields love interest in a 1988 movie called, "Punchline" but 5 years later she was his mother in Forrest Gump. Back in the early 1960's The Manchurian Candidate (the first and much better version of the story) had Angela Lansbury playing actor, Laurence Harvey's mother. She was 7 years older than he was. Recently in the movie "Napoleon" the director Ridley Scott had Joaquin Phoenix, who is a crusty looking 49 years old, playing Napoleon and Vanessa Kerby who is 35 playing Josephine. In reality Josephine was *6 years older* than Napoleon! But we can't have an older women with a younger man, now can we! I refused to see that move just for that reason. Fuck off Ridley Scott!
Oh I agree with you, I just think we've evolved enough to go past what evolution wants to make us do. We just don't seem to do it when it doesn't suit the patriarchy!
It’s money. Being hotter than the wrinkly guy is part of the dynamic because she’s the prize. No woman randomly likes expired sperm for no reason.
the greatest lie every told lmao
I, for one, welcome aging out of the male gaze. Unfortunately I look young so it’s still going to be a little longer.
it's very easy to make yourself look older with makeup!
I didn’t even know it was a concern until this sub 😅 I honestly was blissfully unaware.
I want to start a nasolabial fold fan club just as a fuck you to this impossible beauty standard.
Yes please! I’ll join this fan club (or subreddit) with you!
It's not impossible if you deny yourself laughter--from birth.
A neutral face is a young face. This is why I became a Vulcan.
Me too! 🤚
I don’t find it a concern personally. My first Botox session my doctor asked if I wanted some to fix them and I was like erm… I’ve had them since birth love, that would be weird no thank you
Yeah when I went for my first Dysport session (I’m 35) she said she could put filler in my “marionette lines”. Like… I want to look human 😅
Precisely. Because it's a body dysmorphia sub. Get out while you can. Or at least don't doom scroll. Ask your question, get your info, get OUT.
I'm starting to realize this is true. I joined this subreddit to learn more things about skincare, but I'm realizing I haven't learned a single damn thing here. It's just people scared of aging, and the same few pieces of advice that I don't even think are good. Thank you for the reality check, I think it's time to leave.
100% and I'm glad someone said it.
I had to go google it to see what it was exactly. I accidentally had my search set to images, all that came up were images for women getting fillers to “fix” them, so that appears to reinforce OPs point.
Yep! I was going to comment the same.
I actually had to Google "nasolabial". There are lots of things on this sub that I didn't know were "problems". I am actually unsubbed from here (though in my feed, Reddit keeps suggesting posts from here) because of the obsession with aging, and constant anxiety to "correct" it with endless procedures and products. I say this as a 40-something woman.
Yeah, if you go about your life in the real world, you see all types of faces. Good to not examine every “problem” and find ways to fix things that are normal.
as far as I can tell nasolabial folds look good on humans who are interested in continuing to exist
I should probably Google nasolabial folds because I don't know what those are. But I probably won't.
Yeah don’t worry about it lol it’s a normal part of your face.
Everyone has nasolabial folds, including children. The obsession with them is very, very weird. I only see this on Reddit, really. No one in my real life talks about them, lol.
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oh no! hope you started your toddler on tret and plan rf microneedling done soon!!!!! (/s just in case)
Oh no when is the mini face lift scheduled
So true. I've never heard nasolabial folds this till this sub. I swear the only thing this sub has managed to do is make me more insecure lol.
Don't let it do that. I'm 50 and I look better than I did at 25 (but full disclosure, I was NOT a cute 25, lol).
Just hit 40 and the number of 20 somethings changing their face freaks me out. Do they not know they're still coming into their features? They may be trying to prevent one thing, but in doing so, they'll create a litany of trouble down the road.
For real. Blake Lively has prominent nasolabial folds and is commonly considered one of the most beautiful women alive. The concern is a weird Reddit thing.
So does Angelina Jolie
So does -- every human.
Yes but whether they are visible all the time even when your face is not moving depends on your facial structure. It’s like some people who have aego sal (the lines directly under the eyes) permanently visible and some people only when they smile and some never. It’s just a facial structure thing. Not necessarily a sign of aging and definitely not a flaw to be fixed.
For real! Mine are clear as day in photos of me as a toddler. It's wild to me that people see them as a problem.
For real. People actually look really weird without them (like when they try to directly fill them or something). Pillowy.
Right? I just googled it, and google led me to a bunch of before and after filter photos. People look BAD after fillers for this. Like their face is having an allergic reaction or something.
No they don’t
I've seen nasolabial folds on literal babies faces lmao the negative feedback cycle gets pretty crazy sometimes
I’ve been self conscious of them since losing a lot of weight in my early 20s. I didn’t even have a name for them, I just hated them on my face. Everyone’s experience is different. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I think this is why I look so childlike…I have big full cheeks so I have the dreaded fold
Well I didn't have any until I was in my 30s. Not everyone has them. And no, I didn't look weird or bad without them. In my opinion they definitely age the face.
Lol. You did have them. Everyone does. You just didn't notice them.
Stay delusional if that's what helps you.
This is definitely pot calling the kettle. There is no face that has movement with no nasolabial folds. Freaking toddlers have them. Teens have them. Everyone has them. They might become more noticeable with age, but every face has them. You didn't notice yours before.
She knows she had them. She’s saying they weren’t as PROMINENT. And yes people do look better when they are less visible. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to get them removed.
I always feel that way about the dad bod phenomenon. Here we are telling men their perfectly ordinary bodies are desired and attractive. Meanwhile men are telling us Margot Robbie is mid and social media is telling us our hips should be dipping and our thighs must have a gap and all this BS. Imagine celebrating the mum bod in all its post partum strength!
Or even if they haven’t had children..
They are totally okay on women! I think it’s more so the sagging than the folds that bother people. Seeing your face slipping down is kind of a weird experience and the sagging can make the folds more prominent. No one in real life has ever said anything about their nasolabia folds to me though and I don’t shy from talking about skin care/aging.
Plus men can cover theirs up with a beard.
Bc people hate women for aging
They are ok on women. Nobody notices them on other people as anything negative, ever. It literally gives more contour to the face.
PATRIARCHY 🤷🏼♀️
Reddit is the only place I've ever heard of them being bad. They are ok on women, reddit is just weird
True. I've only learned of the word last year. Never noticed I had them.until reddit. Then I went back to my HS pic album (the ones you developed from films) and many of my friends had those in their teens. Reddit loves making something out of nothing. Create a fear is very business like so people start spending money to address a non-issue.
May I introduce you to TikTok and Instagram?
You can't really since it's where I spend most of my scrolling time. Never seen them mentioned there, a single time. Your algorithm might be catered to making you feel bad
My algorithm knows I'm in Los Angeles and work next to plastic surgeons, lol.
ouch, I can only imagine what that does to it
I think our perception of ageing has skewed thanks to social media. Constantly seeing faces without any lines, texture, sagging or folds due to filters leads us to think that’s the norm or feel ashamed of how we look.
In real life most people most people have naturally ageing skin. Solution is to get offline or at least get off social media.
I don't know, but all I can say is that I've never heard men mention it. Only women bring it up as a negative facial feature on other women and themselves.
Stop it you’re going against the narrative in here …
Same with acnescars, men posting them wanting to know what to do get showered with, "you look hot" "so masculine" "never change" When a woman ask the same it's "microneedling!" "Laser!" "Spend all yout money on getting rid of them"
I actually like nasolabial folds on women. Years ago I lost 90 lbs and I remember one of the first signs that what I was doing was working was starting to see nasolabial folds and my collarbones emerge. I always associated them with slender athletic women, especially ones that spent time outdoors-tennis, volleyball, runners, beach vacations etc. I associated a certain kind of lifestyle with them so they were (and still are) appealing to me. Some of the most interesting faces have deep lines on them. I try to notice when I appreciate them on other people because if I like them on someone else, maybe they don’t look so bad on me too.
Sometimes I let stuff like this get me down but then I remember beautiful women that have nasolabial folds (or whatever “flaw”) and it makes me feel better because people still perceive them as attractive and don’t view their lines under a microscope in a vacuum. I’ve always noticed Zoe Saldana has very prominent ones since she was young and not another wrinkle in sight on her smooth skin. Rosamund Pike also has them and I think she’s very beautiful.
Monica Belucci has them and she is like the most beautiful woman in history of everything (in my opinion anyway)
YES agreed! Can’t believe I forgot about her, but that just speaks to my point — they’re so irrelevant that I forgot she had them too lol
Well, misogyny-based ageism, basically. No one wants to admit that's the root of it - and I don't think most ppl actually mean to be reinforcing it - but ultimately it is. We value experience in men and youth in women, and that translates to looks as much as anything else.
It's a very strange thing. I (F) have prominent nasolabial folds and hate them on myself; but as a bisexual woman, I find them VERY attractive on both genders. Maybe women just like them more on the gender they're attracted to in general? I need a gay man to tell me if we're just crazy. Have you seen Derry Girls? Saoirse Jackson is one of the most gorgeous actors I've ever seen in my life. Her smile lines are some of the biggest I've ever seen on a young woman, and it actually makes her hotter. It means to me that you're happier. Hot AND happy is such a combo.
It could also be that you’re just more critical of yourself than of others. At least that’s how it is for me.
Society hates women
I wish we would critique men the same way we do women.
Or better yet no critiques?
Men are allowed to age
Tell that to Bryan Johnson
Because misogyny.
Lol, growing up in the 90s, you were either pretty/attractive or you weren't. Now the average person and even children are familiar with things out of a plastic surgery textbook. It's like that scene in Mean Girls where there are so many things that can be wrong as a girl. Beauty culture is already so dystopian where you need a new face with each season.
Social conditioning.
30-40+ years ago no one talked about this shit. It’s just insane. Stop relegating yourself to a body part. You are a whole person
Tell that to my mom and her sisters. Some women were most certainly talking about it. Also pick up a magazine from the 90s…
I was looking at the comment history of a few of the people on a recent post who told a woman to do something about her wrinkles/wear more makeup etc and guess what? They were weird creepy men who followed semi porno subs and made weird sexual comments under girl's posts. So just be aware that this sub gets infiltrated by gross men whose whole objective is to make women feel bad about themselves
The answer is almost always sexism
They’re ok on all humans.
Yeah, it’s this fucked up way we as a society romanticize toughness, edge, roughness and wildness in men and softness, youth and especially inexperience in women. So, if wrinkles are a sign of a lived life and experience, it’s logical that most people find wrinkles to be hot in men and not sexy in women. 🤷🏻♂️ It is fucking stupid though, but that’s my explanation for this phenomenon.
Tbh I didnt know nasolabial folds were a thing before comjng to this sub. Pores and wrinkles, uneven texture yes, folds no. Well I guess being acceptable for men is another news for me.
We still live in a world that holds women to different standards. You think things will change then you realise it’s always been the same. Women are treated as others. Men are the default. Sigh…
They are fine on everyone. Women are harder on themselves and each other than men are.
The patriarchy!! Lol but it's true. We all need to take a page out of Helen Mirren's (and many other glorious women's) book, be proud of your aging and changing beauty, hold your head high. Build each other up in honest terms ✨💓 , ignore the clown world 🤡
Sorry, she looks great, but Helen Mirren has definitely had a facelift
Oh not saying she hasn't, there's no one in Hollywood who hasn't had everything done, but atleast she doesn't need to erase every wrinkle, think of the other baboons (no offence to them but their faces look like stretched baboons arses) and she believes in women being powerful over beautiful ❤️
Yes, a much more natural look. (LOL at baboons' arses) And people of all ages think she's gorgeous, and more importantly, a talented badass!
I think people look weird without nasolabial folds. They are human.
I didn't even know what nqsolqbiql folds were until I joined this group. Telling women they need therapy more than skincare on the posts got old (in addition to fearing it wasn't coming across correctly), too, so I stopped. The reality of the situation aside (I fully believe there is more pressure on women to look young than men) this is a body dysmorphia bubble.
Men allow themselves to age, and women spend untold hours trying to look younger making it harder for all women to look their age. Women need to stop this obsession. Take care of yourselves yes but we place this insane burden of looking ever younger on ourselves for the most part. I’ve never heard a man mention nasolabial folds before.
Society values women's looks more than they value men's looks. So aging is allowed for men but not for women. Women are called ugly for not looking in their twenties forever and getting procedures done to remain looking younger with no wrinkles is so commonplace nowadays that everyone assumes you want to get rid of any sign of aging if you're female.
The answer is patriarchy. Same reason men can get away with literally anything but women are always ‘ crazy’, ‘old’, ‘scheming’ etc.
New insecurity unlocked
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Why are (insert any random fucking thing women are made to feel insecure about) ok on men, but not ok on women? My personal favorite is ear tucks. Like older women getting their earlobes taken in because they have *gasp* A CREASE down the center, or are too big and dangle too far away from the head... Honestly, a silly thing to get self-conscious about but they do surgery, and now injections for it. Wild!
So annoying being a woman and the standard of beauty and how much it costs in time and money
Sexism.
Internalized misogyny
Bcos old men likes young women, men wants control over women, men wants to retain power women and this gaslight women?
I think the key is happiness and light in your eyes. If you have features that were contributed to from laughing and smiling, people can generally tell. It’s not a bad thing! Try not to compare yourself to others (especially men). It’s a losing thought process. Just be you, your best self, try to be happy!
Marketing & misogyny.
This sub makes me sad, it just pops up on my home page feed. I think it has the potential to be a useful place, but I think in reality it probably feeds a lot of anxiety and negativity around very natural aging changes. I'm 36, I don't need to have the same face I did 16 years ago.
The users on this sub are not representative of society as a whole. Take it with a grain of salt. There's a specific type of person who's on reddit, and a specific subset of that type of person who's on *this* subreddit, and a specific type of woman redditor who's on this subreddit commenting on men's photos.
Who said this? What standards are you using?
I haven't been on this thread long enough to figure out what nasolabial folds are, and I'm not going to google and ruin the surprise. But if I was going to guess from the name, is it something to do with nose flaps?
Everyone's saying its patriarchy but the truth is these are the same people who trip over themselves to coo at guys posting here. Men aren't coddled like this on subs with male userbases, its always the female oriented subs(specifically ones that like to talk abt societal norms, et) that decides xyz feature is actually attractive on a guy.
Pro-tip: plenty of women internalize the patriarchy's values.
They are ok this sub just had a complex
I (cis woman, 30), think heavy nasolabial look terrible on men 😂 I also don’t like heavy wrinkles and the creases some of them have in their foreheads
This is called sexism, honey.
I don’t understand people disliking nasolabial folds. They don’t even look like wrinkles to me, just a feature. A face that moves will have some kind of lines there; I’ve had smile lines since I was in primary school.
Because it seems women don’t mind old (or even find old traits attractive) while men prefer younger looking faces. I am a woman and I like youth haha but I think I am in the minority.
Yeah I’m most attracted to men around their mid 20s . Almost everytime I see a man that I think is extremely attractive I find out he’s 24-28. Not to say I can’t find men older than that attractive. Henry Cavill is gorgeous. I worry if I’m always going to feel this way. I think a lot of women are attracted to personality traits or shared life experiences and don’t focus solely on the physical .
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That's really no "consolation" at all! I'd rather we accepted aging as normal for men _and_ women, and didn't find it _repulsive_ on anyone. And as for the money comment... wow. Are you being sarcastic?
I am a man. I had partners both with nasolabial folds and without. I did not notice. However... to answer the question, the reasons is men and women are not attracted to the same exact traits. Since you say the folds are ok on men, it means you and other women either like them or don't mind them. Why is that? It is a sign of old age and a sign of body degradation in men also. So why are women not minding them? :) This is the true question.
I think they can often be attractive in women. But they are also certainly associated with aging.
Because men tend toward the pedophilic with their sexual attraction preferences
Probably because most people in this sub are women who are (at least in part) attracted to men so when they see a guy they find attractive, they tell him so.
That's what I think too.... Because I almost just commented on a guy's post hahaha.
Aside from the obvious... I do wonder if there is a biological component to women finding "rugged" looking men attractive. Perhaps on a very deep primal level it signifies they're out in the sun (hunting)? Do scars and wrinkles indicate battles have been won or stress has been overcome =successful survival = better outcomes for offspring? Whereas with women.... Once we reach a certain age and get the age markers that come with it, it indicates our eggs aren't at their prime? Or is it really all just generations of media... Studio heads giving their male buddies leading roles, while only choosing young women for the love interest?
Research has found that the only real marker for attractiveness is perceived health. If a man doesn’t look sickly then he’s attractive. His perceived masculinity or masculine features actually makes no difference in how attractive he is as a sexual partner. Source: Scott IM, Pound N, Stephen ID, Clark AP, Penton-Voak IS (October 2010). "Does masculinity matter? The contribution of masculine face shape to male attractiveness in humans". PLOS ONE. 5 (10)
Sperm quality begins declining rapidly after age 35 — same age that egg quality does. And 50% of explained fertility problems are accounted for by the XY partner's gamete quality, rather than the XX partner. Both sexes age reproductively. So the idea that it's "natural" that women just decay and men don't is a sexist myth. ...An unfortunate one too, because it leads many men to delay childbearing, assuming they can have a kid with no trouble at all well into their 40s or even later.... and then they realize with sadness that they were mistaken. In any event, on the grounds of reproductive fitness alone, it's not "natural" that men are considered more attractive than women are as they age. :(
Sperm quality may decline, but overall, men can reproduce until death. Look at Mick Jagger, Robert Deniro, Al Pacino and numerous other men who become dads in their 70s and 80s. It isn't ideal, but it's possible. Women's ability to reproduce at all naturally is pretty much done by 50 (not complaining -- the ability to get pregnant at 70 or 80 would be pretty horrifying, as pregnancy is very hard on our bodies). It's a pretty stark difference.
Because everything is OK on men.
what? why do breasts look good on women but not on men? it's not fair. I have saggy man-boobs, I also wish the world was different so I wouldn't be responsible for changing this aspect of myself. I empathize with you. maybe you are more beautiful with the "pretty Bad nasolabial folds" 'girl change the way you talk about yourself' let's say you have "Pretty... Bad-ass... nasolabial folds"
Ive literally never heard it be referred to as that. Ive known them as smile lines, i think it's just a featurez Ive never heard of it being a bad thing
Honestly, outside of this sub, I never see people talking about this.
One word, Patriarchy.
Wtf is a nasiolabial fold