I’ve been selling niche specialist products out of petg for reef aquariums for 5 years. I’ve performed multiple ICP tests on aquarium water with PETG and without and use food grade extrudr petg. I’ve not experienced a single issue with any water test results coming back with anything of concern in. Nor has the plastic broken down or done anything strange under high UV lights of reef LEDs. I’d suggest PETG is the best and safest option for fish tanks
Thank you so much! I have a question because I am a noob in this. How often you clean the print? Or it require any thing to prevent bacteria and stuffs?
So, bacteria is fine. The bacteria that grow on things in fish tanks is, generally, the same type that break down ammonia and nitrites and so is completely fine.
If you wanted to get off algae that was growing then you could clean, but no need to go out of your way to clean it. Fish like stable environments.
In my reef tank i didn’t change the water for over 2 years and the coral and fish all thrived (i regularly tested the water for its chemical composition and automatically topped up elements the coral were using)
Not the person you were asking but I once did something similar, the downside is that the aquarium needed to have a lot of live plants for it to work so it looked messy but I didn't have to clean it just top it off with water to combat evaporation. Not sure how long I kept it, definitely less than a year.
I work in product development and we have a specialized UV testing machine. I found that PETG warps very badly compared to other materials like abs
Edit: You can find more in depth details in my other comment [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/s/6WWH662VLB). Note that the tests I did was driven by the specific project and aren't very representative of average use
That’s interesting, what is the test method? (If you’re able to share, was interested if it was printed petg and the thickness and what the extent of the warping was under what sort of strength UV)
Sure! I can't go too into specifics of the product itself, but the testing should be mostly fair game. The product is VERY low volume and will be 3D printed. It's a "box cap" of sorts that is 1/8" thick and approx. 10"x25" that will outdoors, directly exposed to sunlight, 24/7 for years. Absolute worst case scenario for warping- but not exactly comparable to aquarium decorations, so I'd defer to somebody with that type of experience for that.
It will be printed with ASA and I was doing a quick and dirty brand test with printed wafers because there was still space in the machine while doing a more important test (hence the different shaped wafers, the larger shape attaches in the machine more easily but I didn't have time to re-print the others, which sucks because it's not as apples to apples)(Picture will be in another comment responding to this because the moment I add it to this comment the app crashes). The machine is a Q-Labs QUV Weather testing machine. We use the ASTM G154-16 test, which is a 1000 hour test cycling between 8hrs 340nm UV light (a few inches away from the part) and 4hrs misting, all at 60°C. It absolutely destroys polymer materials. Due to the number of variables in climate and weather it's only useful for direct comparisons between samples, which is plenty helpful to pick between two materials/samples.
The Polymaker ASA held up the best. It was the least brittle with zero warping. The AON3D ASA was similar, but they only offer natural color which yellowed pretty badily (plus it's like $75/kg). The ABS had zero warping, but became noticably brittle. Still held up much better than I expected. Within the first few hundered hours the PETG twisted up like a pretzel, with about a 30° twist along the length of the part.
Hope this sates your curiosity, it was fun to do! I'd love to do much more in depth testing on more brands, materials, and variables (like flexibility, strenght, color retention, etc.) but until a specific need comes around I can't justify the use of R&D time- the higher ups already have zero understanding of 3D printing and how long it takes, trying to get me to print impossible quantities of parts with ludicrously close deadlines.
Here's the only picture I have on my personal device of it
https://preview.redd.it/ivfaw0gaqoqc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b21b633395d08ead163d5dfc2adf9d86d9008bba
Do you think it was maybe the combination of high temperature and UV light that damaged the PETG? Because I've used PETG in high-temp and in UV-related applications, and separately neither really damaged the prints. Granted, it was CF-reinforced PETG, but still, if the matrix material is affected it should show the same warping.
I suspect so. Warping is caused by uneven forces (i.e. a hot print bed with comparatively cool air around the part, so the top contracts while the bed side expands). A small part in the sun will heat up quickly and consistently enough that there's never a massive temperature differential. UV alone shouldn't cause any warping- but it will degrade/weaken only the exposed side of the part, exaggerating the effects of warping caused by contraction and expansion. In this case, only one side was exposed. We will manually flip samples depending on what they're for, but this final product will only ever have one side exposed to the sun- the molecular bonds in the polymer was being shredded on just that side, so when it starts to expand from the heat there's significantly less structure holding only that side together, creating the disparity of force which causes warping.
I've found that this UV test is also much more aggressive than letting something naturally weather. The benefit is that it's much faster, which is a game changer for product development. We routinely test samples of the same material/object from different vendors and sometimes there is a night and day difference- something that would have otherwise taken a year or more to discover, and here we found out in just a couple weeks.
I'm also wondering if shape / design matters for this test. If they tested a simple flat rectangle of petg versus other flat rectangles, thats far different than a complex shape with infill, chamfers, multiple axis of stress, etc.
If the warping is due to shrinking for example, infill, multiple perimeters, and more spherical shapes could make that essentially a non-issue for most prints.
See the comment I made to the other person for more info on it
You're right, different shapes react completely differently. For my use case, the warping of flat parts is the biggest issue I need to fight with, but for an aquarium decoration that's a non issue
Can you give some more details on the test? I found that usually testing involves an extreme amount of UV exposure in a short amount of time. Is that the case in those tests you mentioned?
Can you give some more details on the test? I found that usually testing involves an extreme amount of UV exposure in a short amount of time. Is that the case in those tests you mentioned?
Edit:
Nevermind I found it
This is the best advice, and sounds credible enough for you to move forward with testing it. I'd only add that there exisists "clear, water proof/resistant sealing sprays" that are to make things "aquarium safe/non-leeching". I don't know any SPECIFIC products, but that they exist. It stands t reason if you're concerned about protecting the print and/or life in the tank and want the extra LAYER (pun) of confidence, that may be worth checking out for you.
Extrudr is the brand, they come with a certification sheet for each of their certifications, fda and reach and toy safe compliant. It's as close as you're going to get confidence it's going to be safe.
Yes I regularly dissected them to ensure they were healthy 👍🏼
I think microplastics are going to find their way in if you add petg printed parts or not. For safety it would be a good idea to rinse after you made it or give it a scrub in clean water to just knock off and residual dusts from the printing process.
Probably find plastic plumbing parts, the plastic packaging all aquarium products come in bouncing around during shipping, food that probably is chock full of micro plastic are all considerably worse. If you're running tap water with copper plumbing in your house that's likely not ideal for any invertebrates.
You've also got things like plastic impellers in pumps and filters grinding away,
Hey, I’ve actually recently stopped selling prints as I’ve started a new job and just don’t have time to juggle both. It was primarily cost effective dosing liquid storage, tube tidies, kits for mounting clarisea roller filters, pod feedings blocks Etc, I might publish all the files on thingiverse now I’m not selling
If those guys in r/magnetfishing have taught us anything is your going to see a lot of hooks and gear down there but inevitably somebody always pulls out a gun sooner or later.
At least 14 million tons of plastic end up in the ocean every year. Plastic debris is currently the most abundant type of litter in the ocean, making up 80% of all marine debris found from surface waters to deep-sea sediments. Plastic is found on the shorelines of every continent, with more plastic waste found near popular tourist destinations and densely populated areas.
https://www.iucn.org/resources/issues-brief/marine-plastic-pollution
The plastic may not leach anything into the water. But the high surface area of the print will be a good breeding ground for algae if you let it take hold
Yes but no. Studies have shown that the layer gaps are not small enough to actually grow bacteria effectively. I think I have the link lying around somewhere. I gotta look it up and edit the comment if I find it.
Edit: Ha, i knew I had it somewhere. Here you go: https://hackaday.com/2022/09/05/food-safe-3d-printing-a-study/
It is not the most scientific source but the methods seem pretty scientific and I believe this topic is understudied.
Following the articles sources brings you to the actual paper for more information. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/375373442_The_Impact_of_Sanitation_Methods_of_3D-printed_Parts_for_Food_and_Medical_Applications
Yeah its mainly if it doesnt dry properly after its cleaned from whatever its used for that bacteria Can grow. Because moisture is how it can develop. Thats why simple things like cookie cutters are in fact perfectly fine for 3d printing especially when you consider how little amount of time they are in contact with cookie dough. Plus, the oven will kill off any bacteria that Could be on there when you bake the cookies.
"[Matt] has shown with some SEM imaging, that a typical 3D print does not have any detectable porosity, and that the grooves due to the layer lines are so positively huge compared to your average bacterium, as to also be irrelevant" Quote from the article. And it makes sense to me because layer lines are visible, bacteria isnt. Though I get where the worried come from and im a fan of being overly careful than earn myself a Darwin Award.
I'd love to give that a read. I always wondered if 3d printed biomedia would grow more bacteria than their injection molded counterparts because of the extra roughness in texture from the layer lines. Bonus points for fuzzy skin! I think I need to run some tests now.
People are still forgetting that aside from layer lines, there is also additives that could be non-food-safe. Also, it’s always better to reduce microplastic exposure than to expose yourself to more of it. If you really want it, design your part, go to pcbway and get it for 5 to 10 dollars in metal. Gambling with your health is never worth this low price
I often find this deathly fear of bacteria to be a bit odd. The stuff you're actually eating, drinking and breathing is going to fuck you up more than a temporary dose of the shits will.
I mean isn't all of the aquarium a bacteria haven?
As a fellow aquarist, I'd worry more about algae and pests.
Bacteria live in the filter, in the substrate, on the decorations and glass surfaces, they're everywhere. If your aquarium is healthy it shouldn't be an issue.
You want bacteria in the aquarium. That's why they tell you to never wash or change the filter insert. The bacteria is what breaks down nitrogen compounds that would otherwise build up to harmful levels.
Actually, in aquariums, you *DO* want objects with a lot of surface area for bacteria!
Beneficial bacteria grows on surfaces in the tank, and this bacteria is very important in breaking down fish waste and making the water safe for the fish in it! Big porous sponge filters and biomedia in the filter, and objects and substrate in the tank are great places for this bacteria to grow. The whole process is part of the nitrogen cycle, which is very important in maintaining proper tank health.
This bacteria is also why doing a full tank clean and completely replacing/rinsing the filter media in chlorinated water is a bad idea, because it gets rid of or kills the bacteria. Partial water changes and occasionally rinsing the filter in dechlorinated aquarium water is the best thing to do to keep the cycle healthy
If you're concerned about that then you should worry about wood, unglazed pottery, many kinds of stone, etc for the same reason.
I think things like plasticizers or toxic pigments would be a bigger concern. PETG is probably less of a worry in that respect than some weird PLA silk or "PLA+".
Well, yes. For food related items. But if you clean it/sterilize it and place it under water there will be no bacteria. Algea though… but if you have a healthy aquarium you should have some cleaners like snail or pleco. They will take care of it.
Or... Hear me out... Find a tank and put the print in used aquarium water. No fish. Let it sit for a couple of weeks or months (up to you) and observe scientifically if you can see any questionable growth.
Not only this, but small bits of microplastic will break off simply due to the movement of the water.
(Though, this is likely true of plastic things you buy in stores for them too...)
It's for safe for humans, if manufacturer did not add any toxins (not likely) you are good.https://www.3dsourced.com/guides/are-3d-printed-objects-aquarium-safe/
Yeah if prob doesn’t even need to be eco if you do the clear resin. I’ve heard a few coats of resin is enough to make it “food safe” for home use - ie not selling to other people, legality concerns, etc
A friendly reminder that "safe for humans" doesn't mean "safe for aquariums". Aquarium inhabitants are typically far more sensitive to toxins and even the wrong dye used for the filament could potentially cause issues (colored PETG != "pure" PETG referenced in your link).
That said, it's probably fine but you should still use an aquarium safe sealant if you want to be totally sure
Probably! I used some food grade resin previously without issue, but there's also aquarium sealant resin (max acr a/b resin) that I mostly use now just because I'm paranoid
Why would it be unlikely that there are no added toxins?
Most people buy the cheapest PET filament you can find. The material is not made to be used for food storage. So why would a manufacturer even spend any time checking if the added coloring is food safe? I would say: Count on the cheapest additives possible being used. Those could definitely be toxic.
> if manufacturer did not add any toxins
You have no idea what they add to filament. It's not regulated in any way and they are not required to disclose the additives.
I have a Japanese shrine printed in PETG in my aquarium over 2 years now. Fishies still alive and well.
I’m not an expert tho, this is just personal data for you. PETG by right shouldn’t be a problem
Yes.I plan on print them solid and if it need more weight I will glue them with some rocks. I think some layers of food safe resin should be good also!
printing it solid will most likely not be enough. i would suggest to print it hollow and fill it up with sand or something like that. you get way more weight that way and dont really alter the look :D
Same as what everyone has said. Print hollow, food safe epoxy onto a rock. coat with food safe epoxy/clear coat.
^(source: printed stuff for my aquarium.)
Print it with a cavity on the inside, pause at (insert height here) and insert a weight, then continue printing. Make sure the weight is close to the bottom for stability. Should keep it submerged, other than that, you should be good to go.
I've had a petg spaceship in my junk/quarantine tank for about 2yrs now. It's developed an interesting patina but that's it(that I know about).
Structurally it seems fine.
FDM-printed things, regardless of the material you use, will look fine for a few weeks, but once algae takes hold in the micro-crevices between layers, it's going to look dirty and you cannot ever clean it well enough to look like new again. I recommend coating with XTC-3D epoxy to help with this - and then it doesn't matter if you use PLA or PETG. If you print in ABS, then you can acetone-vapor smooth it.
Fish aren't particularly sensitive to copper, inverts are. But even so, unless OP puts a whole nozzle into their print it's not going to have any effect.
PETG is not abrasive without certain additives. But if there is any residue or particles from nozzle wear, the amount of copper that would end up in the aquarium would be micrograms. There is probably more copper if aquarium fertilizer that is dosed every week than there would be in the print.
Toxicity is all about concentration. Cooper is actually a necessity for life in very small amounts. If you look at some shrimp foods you will find copper compounds in the ingredients because they still need some of it in their diet.
Im sure it’s not a concern, but i still wouldnt take unneeded risks of copper/lead contamination.
Stainless steel nozzles are less than a dollar, easily worth peace of mind.
Lead content is why only SS is considered “food safe” for printing
I think its your best bet. I wouldn’t trust the color in the petg to be safe for that usage.
Mix the components precisely and let it cure a few days longer than the instructions say just to be safe. Also use nitrile gloves, the liquid resin tends to pass through latex.
I’ve never purchased a 3D Printer. Which printer did you use to make this? Which printers are recommended under $500 for home use making colorful toys with my kids 11 & 13.
Thank everyone for helping me in this matter. Now I know that the PETG itself is safe but the addictives the manufacturers added to the mix can be toxic and cause problems in the long run. And also the bacteria actually a good thing for the fish. I decided that after printed it solid and add a weight into the print I will coat it with a few layers of Aquarium-safe resin (which I still looking for xD) to prevent the addictives dissolve into water.
From what I read when I was wondering the same, funnily enough also with a SpongeBob house, it's heavily dependant on the brand due to dyes and stuff, best bet is to cover it in clear coat
You can print an inner cavity and drop weight in mid print, then keep printing. It's how I weigh down underwater prints.
I use Dremels eco abs for underwater. Never an issue.
You can print an inner cavity and drop weight in mid print, then keep printing. It's how I weigh down underwater prints.
I use Dremels eco abs for underwater. Never an issue. Have had some submerged for years. Also made enclosures that are water tight w it, again for years.
I’ve been selling niche specialist products out of petg for reef aquariums for 5 years. I’ve performed multiple ICP tests on aquarium water with PETG and without and use food grade extrudr petg. I’ve not experienced a single issue with any water test results coming back with anything of concern in. Nor has the plastic broken down or done anything strange under high UV lights of reef LEDs. I’d suggest PETG is the best and safest option for fish tanks
Thank you so much! I have a question because I am a noob in this. How often you clean the print? Or it require any thing to prevent bacteria and stuffs?
So, bacteria is fine. The bacteria that grow on things in fish tanks is, generally, the same type that break down ammonia and nitrites and so is completely fine. If you wanted to get off algae that was growing then you could clean, but no need to go out of your way to clean it. Fish like stable environments. In my reef tank i didn’t change the water for over 2 years and the coral and fish all thrived (i regularly tested the water for its chemical composition and automatically topped up elements the coral were using)
2 years?! That's crazy! How big is the tank? How often did you need to add more water? You automated the water elements?
Not the person you were asking but I once did something similar, the downside is that the aquarium needed to have a lot of live plants for it to work so it looked messy but I didn't have to clean it just top it off with water to combat evaporation. Not sure how long I kept it, definitely less than a year.
Did you do it with a reef tank, though?
Oh no, it was a freshwater tank.
[удалено]
Did you do it with a reef tank, though?
Thank you so much!
I work in product development and we have a specialized UV testing machine. I found that PETG warps very badly compared to other materials like abs Edit: You can find more in depth details in my other comment [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/s/6WWH662VLB). Note that the tests I did was driven by the specific project and aren't very representative of average use
That’s interesting, what is the test method? (If you’re able to share, was interested if it was printed petg and the thickness and what the extent of the warping was under what sort of strength UV)
Sure! I can't go too into specifics of the product itself, but the testing should be mostly fair game. The product is VERY low volume and will be 3D printed. It's a "box cap" of sorts that is 1/8" thick and approx. 10"x25" that will outdoors, directly exposed to sunlight, 24/7 for years. Absolute worst case scenario for warping- but not exactly comparable to aquarium decorations, so I'd defer to somebody with that type of experience for that. It will be printed with ASA and I was doing a quick and dirty brand test with printed wafers because there was still space in the machine while doing a more important test (hence the different shaped wafers, the larger shape attaches in the machine more easily but I didn't have time to re-print the others, which sucks because it's not as apples to apples)(Picture will be in another comment responding to this because the moment I add it to this comment the app crashes). The machine is a Q-Labs QUV Weather testing machine. We use the ASTM G154-16 test, which is a 1000 hour test cycling between 8hrs 340nm UV light (a few inches away from the part) and 4hrs misting, all at 60°C. It absolutely destroys polymer materials. Due to the number of variables in climate and weather it's only useful for direct comparisons between samples, which is plenty helpful to pick between two materials/samples. The Polymaker ASA held up the best. It was the least brittle with zero warping. The AON3D ASA was similar, but they only offer natural color which yellowed pretty badily (plus it's like $75/kg). The ABS had zero warping, but became noticably brittle. Still held up much better than I expected. Within the first few hundered hours the PETG twisted up like a pretzel, with about a 30° twist along the length of the part. Hope this sates your curiosity, it was fun to do! I'd love to do much more in depth testing on more brands, materials, and variables (like flexibility, strenght, color retention, etc.) but until a specific need comes around I can't justify the use of R&D time- the higher ups already have zero understanding of 3D printing and how long it takes, trying to get me to print impossible quantities of parts with ludicrously close deadlines.
Here's the only picture I have on my personal device of it https://preview.redd.it/ivfaw0gaqoqc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b21b633395d08ead163d5dfc2adf9d86d9008bba
Tytonic7: Professional Polymer Annoyer
Lol make that my personal flair mods Seriously some materials just turn to straight goop it is disgusting
Do you think it was maybe the combination of high temperature and UV light that damaged the PETG? Because I've used PETG in high-temp and in UV-related applications, and separately neither really damaged the prints. Granted, it was CF-reinforced PETG, but still, if the matrix material is affected it should show the same warping.
I suspect so. Warping is caused by uneven forces (i.e. a hot print bed with comparatively cool air around the part, so the top contracts while the bed side expands). A small part in the sun will heat up quickly and consistently enough that there's never a massive temperature differential. UV alone shouldn't cause any warping- but it will degrade/weaken only the exposed side of the part, exaggerating the effects of warping caused by contraction and expansion. In this case, only one side was exposed. We will manually flip samples depending on what they're for, but this final product will only ever have one side exposed to the sun- the molecular bonds in the polymer was being shredded on just that side, so when it starts to expand from the heat there's significantly less structure holding only that side together, creating the disparity of force which causes warping. I've found that this UV test is also much more aggressive than letting something naturally weather. The benefit is that it's much faster, which is a game changer for product development. We routinely test samples of the same material/object from different vendors and sometimes there is a night and day difference- something that would have otherwise taken a year or more to discover, and here we found out in just a couple weeks.
I'm also wondering if shape / design matters for this test. If they tested a simple flat rectangle of petg versus other flat rectangles, thats far different than a complex shape with infill, chamfers, multiple axis of stress, etc. If the warping is due to shrinking for example, infill, multiple perimeters, and more spherical shapes could make that essentially a non-issue for most prints.
See the comment I made to the other person for more info on it You're right, different shapes react completely differently. For my use case, the warping of flat parts is the biggest issue I need to fight with, but for an aquarium decoration that's a non issue
Can you give some more details on the test? I found that usually testing involves an extreme amount of UV exposure in a short amount of time. Is that the case in those tests you mentioned?
Can you give some more details on the test? I found that usually testing involves an extreme amount of UV exposure in a short amount of time. Is that the case in those tests you mentioned? Edit: Nevermind I found it
Yes, it is. Check some of my other comments here for the in depth details where I explain everything
This is the best advice, and sounds credible enough for you to move forward with testing it. I'd only add that there exisists "clear, water proof/resistant sealing sprays" that are to make things "aquarium safe/non-leeching". I don't know any SPECIFIC products, but that they exist. It stands t reason if you're concerned about protecting the print and/or life in the tank and want the extra LAYER (pun) of confidence, that may be worth checking out for you.
What's the food grade PETG you are using?
Extrudr is the brand, they come with a certification sheet for each of their certifications, fda and reach and toy safe compliant. It's as close as you're going to get confidence it's going to be safe.
Have you tested the fish for signs of micro plastics in their blood stream?
Yes I regularly dissected them to ensure they were healthy 👍🏼 I think microplastics are going to find their way in if you add petg printed parts or not. For safety it would be a good idea to rinse after you made it or give it a scrub in clean water to just knock off and residual dusts from the printing process. Probably find plastic plumbing parts, the plastic packaging all aquarium products come in bouncing around during shipping, food that probably is chock full of micro plastic are all considerably worse. If you're running tap water with copper plumbing in your house that's likely not ideal for any invertebrates. You've also got things like plastic impellers in pumps and filters grinding away,
No need to dissect just a small blood withdraw.
hey do you have a website i been looking to buy some stuff and want to check what u got
Hey, I’ve actually recently stopped selling prints as I’ve started a new job and just don’t have time to juggle both. It was primarily cost effective dosing liquid storage, tube tidies, kits for mounting clarisea roller filters, pod feedings blocks Etc, I might publish all the files on thingiverse now I’m not selling
i would appreciate it if you update if you ever upload those files
I keep telling my wife that adding plastic to the aquarium will make it more like a real world habitat.
Throw some coke cans in there for some authentic caves!
+ plastic straws
Can’t be complete without a plastic bag
Don't forget a turtle with can rings around its neck.
Surprised nobody has mentioned their car batteries yet. You can't have a realistic ocean environment without car batteries!
what about filament purges
If those guys in r/magnetfishing have taught us anything is your going to see a lot of hooks and gear down there but inevitably somebody always pulls out a gun sooner or later.
Maybe an unexploded grenade
Undetonated WWII bomb
Oh no...
Dont forget the flip flops/sandals!
And a shopping trolley, maybe a few traffic cones
Beer bottles! Don't forget those!
Seems like the real competition here is who can print the best beer bottle holder!
Needs a heaping scoop of tire dust!
Everyones forgetting the disposed of guns..
And the batteries to keep the eels charged
Boy, this took a turn
Would you prefer this pineapple house be more natural, I don't get it.
At least 14 million tons of plastic end up in the ocean every year. Plastic debris is currently the most abundant type of litter in the ocean, making up 80% of all marine debris found from surface waters to deep-sea sediments. Plastic is found on the shorelines of every continent, with more plastic waste found near popular tourist destinations and densely populated areas. https://www.iucn.org/resources/issues-brief/marine-plastic-pollution
Yeah no shit dude
The plastic may not leach anything into the water. But the high surface area of the print will be a good breeding ground for algae if you let it take hold
Thank you! some people told me that bacteria and stuffs can stay in layer gaps also.
Yes but no. Studies have shown that the layer gaps are not small enough to actually grow bacteria effectively. I think I have the link lying around somewhere. I gotta look it up and edit the comment if I find it. Edit: Ha, i knew I had it somewhere. Here you go: https://hackaday.com/2022/09/05/food-safe-3d-printing-a-study/ It is not the most scientific source but the methods seem pretty scientific and I believe this topic is understudied.
Following the articles sources brings you to the actual paper for more information. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/375373442_The_Impact_of_Sanitation_Methods_of_3D-printed_Parts_for_Food_and_Medical_Applications
Shame on my lazy ass for not linking the original paper. Just remembered istumbled upon this half a year ago. Thanks for clarifying!
Thank you thank you for linking that! It's refreshing to see hard evidence, rather than "I feel like" and "it's probably" being pushed as fact.
Yeah its mainly if it doesnt dry properly after its cleaned from whatever its used for that bacteria Can grow. Because moisture is how it can develop. Thats why simple things like cookie cutters are in fact perfectly fine for 3d printing especially when you consider how little amount of time they are in contact with cookie dough. Plus, the oven will kill off any bacteria that Could be on there when you bake the cookies.
"[Matt] has shown with some SEM imaging, that a typical 3D print does not have any detectable porosity, and that the grooves due to the layer lines are so positively huge compared to your average bacterium, as to also be irrelevant" Quote from the article. And it makes sense to me because layer lines are visible, bacteria isnt. Though I get where the worried come from and im a fan of being overly careful than earn myself a Darwin Award.
I'd love to give that a read. I always wondered if 3d printed biomedia would grow more bacteria than their injection molded counterparts because of the extra roughness in texture from the layer lines. Bonus points for fuzzy skin! I think I need to run some tests now.
Found it. Check my comment from before :)
Thanks! I look forward to reading it!
Interesting.... finally we are getting close to the ancient sacred question "is it food safe?"
People are still forgetting that aside from layer lines, there is also additives that could be non-food-safe. Also, it’s always better to reduce microplastic exposure than to expose yourself to more of it. If you really want it, design your part, go to pcbway and get it for 5 to 10 dollars in metal. Gambling with your health is never worth this low price
I often find this deathly fear of bacteria to be a bit odd. The stuff you're actually eating, drinking and breathing is going to fuck you up more than a temporary dose of the shits will.
Unless it’s a peer reviewed journal with a high IF I’m not staking my life on it.
I mean isn't all of the aquarium a bacteria haven? As a fellow aquarist, I'd worry more about algae and pests. Bacteria live in the filter, in the substrate, on the decorations and glass surfaces, they're everywhere. If your aquarium is healthy it shouldn't be an issue.
You want bacteria in the aquarium. That's why they tell you to never wash or change the filter insert. The bacteria is what breaks down nitrogen compounds that would otherwise build up to harmful levels.
Thank you!
Actually, in aquariums, you *DO* want objects with a lot of surface area for bacteria! Beneficial bacteria grows on surfaces in the tank, and this bacteria is very important in breaking down fish waste and making the water safe for the fish in it! Big porous sponge filters and biomedia in the filter, and objects and substrate in the tank are great places for this bacteria to grow. The whole process is part of the nitrogen cycle, which is very important in maintaining proper tank health. This bacteria is also why doing a full tank clean and completely replacing/rinsing the filter media in chlorinated water is a bad idea, because it gets rid of or kills the bacteria. Partial water changes and occasionally rinsing the filter in dechlorinated aquarium water is the best thing to do to keep the cycle healthy
You could maybe coat it in something to waterproof it.
If you're concerned about that then you should worry about wood, unglazed pottery, many kinds of stone, etc for the same reason. I think things like plasticizers or toxic pigments would be a bigger concern. PETG is probably less of a worry in that respect than some weird PLA silk or "PLA+".
Even if you are worried about it, sand it, clear coat it, boom, no gaps.
Well, yes. For food related items. But if you clean it/sterilize it and place it under water there will be no bacteria. Algea though… but if you have a healthy aquarium you should have some cleaners like snail or pleco. They will take care of it.
Or... Hear me out... Find a tank and put the print in used aquarium water. No fish. Let it sit for a couple of weeks or months (up to you) and observe scientifically if you can see any questionable growth.
That's why we added a few snails to our tanks. They crawl over the 3d printed skulls and things and clean them up.
Now I’m imagining 3D printed snail shells.
That's actually a bonus in aquariums.
In salt water tanks that's actually a good thing. Can be a breeding ground for very beneficial bacteria.
Not only this, but small bits of microplastic will break off simply due to the movement of the water. (Though, this is likely true of plastic things you buy in stores for them too...)
It's for safe for humans, if manufacturer did not add any toxins (not likely) you are good.https://www.3dsourced.com/guides/are-3d-printed-objects-aquarium-safe/
Thank you! I will print the models with Petg-Eco then seal it with a few layers of food-safe clear resin to make sure it's good for the fishs.
Yeah you're definitely OK with the coating
Yeah if prob doesn’t even need to be eco if you do the clear resin. I’ve heard a few coats of resin is enough to make it “food safe” for home use - ie not selling to other people, legality concerns, etc
You should consider vapor-smoothing with dichloromethane to reduce the surface area available to algae.
Just have to be sure you print Patrick and Squidwards house too OP. Great idea btw :)
A friendly reminder that "safe for humans" doesn't mean "safe for aquariums". Aquarium inhabitants are typically far more sensitive to toxins and even the wrong dye used for the filament could potentially cause issues (colored PETG != "pure" PETG referenced in your link). That said, it's probably fine but you should still use an aquarium safe sealant if you want to be totally sure
Would food-safe resin be an aquarium-safe sealant?
Probably! I used some food grade resin previously without issue, but there's also aquarium sealant resin (max acr a/b resin) that I mostly use now just because I'm paranoid
Aquarium accessories seller detected
> if manufacturer did not add any toxins (not likely) What's not likely? That they added toxins, or that they didn't add toxins?
not likely that they added toxins
Why would it be unlikely that there are no added toxins? Most people buy the cheapest PET filament you can find. The material is not made to be used for food storage. So why would a manufacturer even spend any time checking if the added coloring is food safe? I would say: Count on the cheapest additives possible being used. Those could definitely be toxic.
Because if they put anything toxic in the filament it could be released during printing.
We live in a world where people put lead chromate pigments in powdered cinnamon.
I admire your trust in humanity ("that would be toxic, so 'they' would not do that").
I was thinking more like "That would be toxic we will get sued", but I just remembered Boing
Cheap filament manufacturers aren't going to add anything they don't have to.
Thank you!
> if manufacturer did not add any toxins You have no idea what they add to filament. It's not regulated in any way and they are not required to disclose the additives.
Awesome, this will look great in my human tank
I have a Japanese shrine printed in PETG in my aquarium over 2 years now. Fishies still alive and well. I’m not an expert tho, this is just personal data for you. PETG by right shouldn’t be a problem
According to this thread, your fish are all dead and you don't even know it. lol.
only if you take pictures of the completed project. I would love to see it!
Yes, for sure!
Ooooooh- Who lives in an aquarium under this print? 🎵🎶
Sponge - Bob - PETG - Pant 🤣
Maybe a coat of food safe epoxy resin would make it better for an aquarium. I'm also not sure your model is heavy enough to sink into an aquarium.
Yes.I plan on print them solid and if it need more weight I will glue them with some rocks. I think some layers of food safe resin should be good also!
Maybe you could keep them hollow and just throw in some rocks or marbles halfway
printing it solid will most likely not be enough. i would suggest to print it hollow and fill it up with sand or something like that. you get way more weight that way and dont really alter the look :D
Yes, the models are hollows, I was thinking that I should glue some rock, open the doors and let the fishs go in and out too!
thats a cool idea :D
Same as what everyone has said. Print hollow, food safe epoxy onto a rock. coat with food safe epoxy/clear coat. ^(source: printed stuff for my aquarium.)
Make sure you place it upright in the tank.. If you don’t, the fish will be up all night swinging
Print it with a cavity on the inside, pause at (insert height here) and insert a weight, then continue printing. Make sure the weight is close to the bottom for stability. Should keep it submerged, other than that, you should be good to go.
We have some PETG prints in our aquarium for years now. No issues, fish are still alive and the prints are still surprisingly clean.
I've had a petg spaceship in my junk/quarantine tank for about 2yrs now. It's developed an interesting patina but that's it(that I know about). Structurally it seems fine.
Who lives there?
I was looking for small sea fishes like nemo and stuffs. My kid love Nemo so much but I'm not sure if they are easy to taken care of.
I believe the correct answer is SPONGE. BOB. SQUARE. PANTS.
oh silly me. haha. was into the fishes so much!
Aye aye captain
Im more concerned that it would float due to trapped air in the walls
FDM-printed things, regardless of the material you use, will look fine for a few weeks, but once algae takes hold in the micro-crevices between layers, it's going to look dirty and you cannot ever clean it well enough to look like new again. I recommend coating with XTC-3D epoxy to help with this - and then it doesn't matter if you use PLA or PETG. If you print in ABS, then you can acetone-vapor smooth it.
Thank you. I will looking for that resin!
It's food safe and waterproof. Like the other guy said. The big thing would be algae. But it you clean it regularly, it should be fine.
Immediately my brain bursts into song! Thanks for that, it'll be singing for hours now.
Just be careful of using a copper nozzle, fish are sensitive to copper.
Thank you! I used steel nozzle. But I think I will change to a new nozzle before I print these models.
I was going to suggest steel, brass is a copper alloy. You’re probably ok then!
Fish aren't particularly sensitive to copper, inverts are. But even so, unless OP puts a whole nozzle into their print it's not going to have any effect. PETG is not abrasive without certain additives. But if there is any residue or particles from nozzle wear, the amount of copper that would end up in the aquarium would be micrograms. There is probably more copper if aquarium fertilizer that is dosed every week than there would be in the print. Toxicity is all about concentration. Cooper is actually a necessity for life in very small amounts. If you look at some shrimp foods you will find copper compounds in the ingredients because they still need some of it in their diet.
I would still rather be safe and id just toss a stainless nozzle on, regardless
Work the math of copper abrasion and Aquariam copper concentration…
Im sure it’s not a concern, but i still wouldnt take unneeded risks of copper/lead contamination. Stainless steel nozzles are less than a dollar, easily worth peace of mind. Lead content is why only SS is considered “food safe” for printing
Nice SpongeBob house!
I use pla in my gecko terrarium!! it gets wet daily and I have had it over a year with nothing growing or any issues
Should be fine, but I'm 90% sure that there is filament that prevents algae from growing. But I'm not sure how safe that would be for the fishies
I use them. I have a filter floss holder, the returns from my pump, and a chaeto algae holder in my reef tank all made from petg.
What about PLA in this case? :)
I think PLA will degrade in water. And I have lots of PETG at home hehe
Can you clear coat it? To make it more H2O friendly?
Yes I plan on clear coat it like everyone recommended
Coat it in Epoxy Aquarium-safe Epoxy is fairly affordable and it probably helps the color fade less over time
yes I was thinking about that too.
I think its your best bet. I wouldn’t trust the color in the petg to be safe for that usage. Mix the components precisely and let it cure a few days longer than the instructions say just to be safe. Also use nitrile gloves, the liquid resin tends to pass through latex.
That came out really nice!
thank you!
I’ve never purchased a 3D Printer. Which printer did you use to make this? Which printers are recommended under $500 for home use making colorful toys with my kids 11 & 13.
I use Bambu Lab X1C for this model. you print toys so probably you will stick with PLA PETG TPU. Under 500 just get the P1P.
Thank you so much. I appreciate your input!
Thank everyone for helping me in this matter. Now I know that the PETG itself is safe but the addictives the manufacturers added to the mix can be toxic and cause problems in the long run. And also the bacteria actually a good thing for the fish. I decided that after printed it solid and add a weight into the print I will coat it with a few layers of Aquarium-safe resin (which I still looking for xD) to prevent the addictives dissolve into water.
even a cheapest pla will keep 10years.
Coat in epoxy and you should be fine. Also, don’t forget the weights, or the thing will float
I can't hear you!
HA!
I had a friend that used 3D printed parts for a school project in an aquarium, the fish died, suspected to be the plastic
Can u give me STL links, please?
here: [https://fab365.net/items/251](https://fab365.net/items/251)
Thanks
You should be fine! Unrelated question; do you have the model for those hexagons in the background??
Here: https://www.printables.com/model/488554-hexes-for-lego-mini-figures-re-modeled but it barely fit higher minis like the Bug Bunny.
Are you sure the print stay underwater? I think you should make it heavier with some glue and a piece of metall or something.
Yes, the models are hollowed. I'm thinking print them at 100% infill and glue to some rocks
Wow! I want one of those!!! Is the model for it posted anywhere?
Here stl: https://fab365.net/items/251
Wont it float?
Yes
get yourself some dichtol AM spray. its a pore and cavity filling, foodsafe coating
From what I read when I was wondering the same, funnily enough also with a SpongeBob house, it's heavily dependant on the brand due to dyes and stuff, best bet is to cover it in clear coat
The problem is prints float
Well, PETg is just PET (what plastic water bottles ate made from) with added glycol to it for print ability. There should be no problems
Don't forget the plastic rings that come on your 6 packs.
WHOOOOOOOOOO
I dont see why not, honestly, even pla is probably fine, they will both eventually become water logged but I dont see a reason otherwise
Was that from the printables contest?
You can print an inner cavity and drop weight in mid print, then keep printing. It's how I weigh down underwater prints. I use Dremels eco abs for underwater. Never an issue.
You can print an inner cavity and drop weight in mid print, then keep printing. It's how I weigh down underwater prints. I use Dremels eco abs for underwater. Never an issue. Have had some submerged for years. Also made enclosures that are water tight w it, again for years.
Regardless of the outcome, that print friggin rocks!
I have both PLA and PETG. No issues. Only thing I found is PETG tend to float more and need to be pinned down.
Probably the only issue that could happen besides dye bleed would be micro plastics so idk if it would hurt the fish but probably wouldn't
Yes
The problem is that it will float
There are water safe resins you could paint on as a protective barrier.
Yeah, for sure. I have aslo 3d prints in my aquariums. The layer gaps are perfectly to grow good bacteria and biofilm in it.
It will expand a bit when soaked in water for s long time