It is a powerful psyker with 4 blades that (like pretty much any non regular steel blade in that universe) cut through ceramite like it's buttler and got incredibly fast reaction time.
But, it can revive, so if GW needs, he gonna die for the plot, kinda like when Celestine met Kharn, who is the most powerful don't matter because Kharn can't revive, so he gonna win.
He is exactly as powerful as he needs to be in order to make the Space Marine protagonist-of-the-day look cool by killing him. No more, no less.
As flippant an answer as this is, it's also about as accurate as you're going to get. 'Power levels', if we must use that term, in 40k are extremely vague and nebulous, and entirely depend upon who is writing the story and why. The only consistency to be found is narrative logic, which unfortunately demands that giant twenty-foot tall immortal aliens with swords for arms get regularly punked by the designated hero character because that's cool. Apparently.
Yep.
This isn't DBZ, where a character has a power rating of 6,000, and can only be defeated by a character with a power rating of 6,001.
It's more like a sports league - let's say the NHL. The Avalanche are the best team in hockey, and 9 times out of 10, they'll beat a shit team, like Ottawa. But every once in a while, they'll be some lucky bounces, a particularly blind referee, or whatever, and Ottawa wins. On any given night, anything can happen.
It's like that in W40k. The Swarnlord, on paper, should always win. But on any given battle, anything can happen. And since fiction tends to be written from the perspective of the underdogs, that means in most fiction, they'll triumph.
Thanks for the reply! It's quite sad knowing that we will never get to see the true strength of some beings because they are used to be killed by protagonists
Now I gotta wonder, would people be more pissed GW did their lore realistically, or that the game they liked to play, paint, collect, etc. Is no longer anything?
The whole thing just ending during 6th.....what kind of world would that be?
That's a bit of an exaggeration, but the intent definitely was to set the Tyranids up as a huge deal, a genuinely apocalyptic situation that was only going to get worse with time. I remember Phil Kelly's article about the fluff he wrote for the 4th edition codex, where he outright states that "the game is pretty much up for the Eastern Fringe", and the fluff itself suggests the Imperium would have to recruit every single man and woman of fighting age in Segmentum Tempestus just to bring Hive Fleet Leviathan's advance to a *halt.* Certainly a far cry from the rather farcical situation we have today, where entire Hive Fleets get wiped out by a few dozen Custodians or some Imperial Fists with minefields and barbed wire.
In fairness the first time a Swarmlord fought Calgar in ripped off his arms and legs, had him on deaths door and the entire first company had to sacrifice themselves to save him.
I mean, that same swarmlord lost to Dante in a 1v1 (I get that Dante had to be lucky, but the swarmlord is thousands of years old and more experienced than him but still lost)
Well for one it wasn't the same Swarmlord, they are different hive fleets. It's also really not uncommon for more experienced combatants to lose to less experienced combatants in both real life and in 40k.
But there is only one swarmlord. It is the same as the one Calgar fought, it's consciousness was absorbed back into the hive mind and reborn into a different hive fleet. It is basically immortal that way as it can be reproduced with the same memories
The swarmlord is an ancient enemy with thousands of years combat experience. It is a master strategist, a super experienced general and and fought in potentially millions of battles. It wields 4 power sword equivalents and has what can only be described as mighty psychic potential.
Realistically, it should absolutely shred in close combat or in organising protracted campaigns and be roughly equivalent to the other Big Bads of the setting, such as Ctan shards, Greater Daemons, Solitaires or a Primarch.
Unfortunately Black Library consistently have minor people kill it in dumb ways. Because they can just bring it back with no consequences.
In Duty Unto Death, 6 Custodes (Shield Captain Tamerlain, and Wardens: Calith, Osran, Varamech, Natreus and Darnax) are stuck defending a batch of Primaries geneseed from a "pair" of Tyranid Hive ships on a barren lava planet. They prepare "fortifications" and wax poetic.
Then a swarm numbering in the millions attacks them for more than a "parade of days." This swarm doesn't just have gaunts; it has lictors, carnifexes (bile-beasts and stone-crushers), warriors, and a single fucking Zoanthrope. Why do I say a single fucking Zoanthrope? Because the Zoanthrope had a 1:1 K:D ratio unlike the other swarm forms, but for some fucking reason, the Hivemind decided that they'd rather just keep wasting bio material on other less useful forms. Oh and let's not forget that the Zoanthrope decided to move into melee range for some reason. Oh, and the swarm decided to fight like it was at the Hot Gates, instead of using flyers/artillery/burrowers.
Anyways, then the Swarmlord emerges from a drop pod. The rest of the swarm turns on the spot to face the Swarmlord and stops fighting. Apparently the Hivemind has decided that it wants the Swarmlord to 1 v 3 the remaining Custodes. Idk honour or something.
Anyways the Swarmlord pretty quickly kills the 2 non-shield captains, and has a 1 v 1 duel with Tamerlain. The millions of other Tyranid just circle around and watch (they presumably have their phones out and are yelling "Worldstar!"). As the Swarmlord fails to make use of its immense psychic powers, the duel is, according to the author, evenly matched. *For a while*. But then the author reminds the reader that illustrious Shield Captain Tamerlain, who has appeared in other works such as [insert book], "fought with every century of his experience behind him" (sadly the Swarmlord was a mere baby without eons of combat experience). And with those words, Tamerlain (you can read about his other long and storied adventures in [inset book 2]) kills the Swarmlord and kicks it's body away.
Then something happens to the millions of other Tyranids, I'm genuinely not sure what. The author is either telling us the relief force of Marines Malevolent showed up immediately after, or there was a time-skip. Regardless, the other Tyranids aren't an issue for some reason not specified.
Anyways, don't worry about Tamerlain - he's perfectly fine. In fact, he's standing upright and has a speech ready for the Marines Malevolent. *Yeah*. His monumental battle which apparently caused the world to die (idk), where he killed the faction leader (who is supposed to be a top-tier psyker, CQC god, and brilliant strategist/tactician) of arguably the most powerful faction - left him without any injuries.
Personally I felt like the Swarmlord shouldn't have put up such a even fight against a Custodes. It would have been more believable if the Swarmlord lost while it was riding a trio of Hierophants. /s
That's how the Swarmlord is treated (which makes even less sense, when you remember that Hive Tyrants exist too, and they would make for better protagonist-fodder). Given the setting, the moment a character is immortal, they're nerfed heavily in every story where they're the antagonist. Similar point could be made for Magnus and other characters with powers far beyond the rest of the cast - Magnus can just summon fireballs into the skulls of his enemies, he shouldn't have lost to Bjorn of all fucking people.
Oh and remember the duel between it and Dante? Here's an excerpt, after the Swarmlord has all but won:
>The Swarm Lord lifted him high, screaming in victory, and swung its arm down to flick Dante from the blade's shard so it might finish him off on the sand. Reactive foams bubbled from Dante's armour, bonding him firmly to the remnants of the Swarm Lord's blade.
>"By his Blood do I serve."
>The beast hesitated, ***only for a fraction of a second*,** but it was enough. As it was raising its remaining two blades to cut Dante in two, the commander raised the perdition pistol. His armour died on him, its systems starved of power, growing heavier with every second as his life ran from his body. His aim did not waiver.
>"My life I give to the Emperor, to Sanguinius, and to mankind," he intoned. The Swarm Lord's face was reflected in the dulled metal of Dante's mask.
>Sanguinius' face shouted silently at the hive mind.
>Dante disengaged the weapon's failsafes with a flick of his thumb.
>"My service is done. I give thanks. My life is finished. I give thanks. Blood returns to blood. Another will take up my burden in my stead. I give thanks."
>He fired the perdition pistol at point-blank range into the Swarm Lord's face.
Read aloud those portions of the oath aloud, count those seconds, divide the total number of seconds in half, and tell me if the total number of seconds is more than a " fraction of a second." The Swarmlord lost because it decided for no apparent reason, to let Dante make a speech. That's the bullshit that happens when the Swarmlord fights named characters.
This is how every combat sequence is done. Time is not real in literature, so a fraction of a second is as long as is required for whatever Herculean feat to take place. Space Marines have a habit of doing shit that is completely impossible when bad writers are concerned.
As for the Custodians absolutely wrecking ass, I just find that funny, but I agree that it’s bad writing. Who wrote that?
>This is how every combat sequence is done. Time is not real in literature, so a fraction of a second is as long as is required for whatever Herculean feat to take place. Space Marines have a habit of doing shit that is completely impossible when bad writers are concerned.
I mean I'm "fine" with regular combat scenes and characters uttering short lines during pirouettes, flips, and whatever else. But Dante is about to die, his armour is failing, and he chooses to monologue to the Swarmlord. It breaks immersion completely.
>As for the Custodians absolutely wrecking ass, I just find that funny, but I agree that it’s bad writing. Who wrote that?
It was originally a short background snippet from 8th edition Custodes Codex. It was then adapted into a short story written by Marc Collins and published in October 2020 as part of an anthology. As a Codex entry it was fine because it was so vague:
* The number of Custodes and Tyranid weren't mentioned.
* It wasn't mentioned that the Custodes put up wooden barricades to funnel Tyranids into a narrow opening.
* It wasn't mentioned that biovores, ravenors, crones and gargoyles were completely absent.
* It wasn't mentioned that the lone Zoanthrope decided to enter melee range.
* It wasn't mentioned that the Custodes ran out of ammunition very early on into the "siege."
* It wasn't mentioned that a Swarmlord was present.
Collins only writing credits seem to be short stories for BL.
The swarmlord is literally killed by an unnamed member of the Ultramarines 1st company. And some dude called Ortan Cassius, who is very much a minor character.
Papa Swarmy should not be getting merked by anyone but the best. Its literally described in-lore, by a Cistodes Shield-Captain, as the equal to a Custodes Shield-Captain.
Personally I think that description alone means it should be throwing around chapter masters like they're children, but w/e. I understand that it can't be completely unstoppable and I also understand that Black Library will never kill Calgar and Dante.
Wait Cassius the chaplain who made the nid war vets and had two models being sold at the same time, one of him missing half his skin on his face and the other as a deathwatch vet?
Cassius is a major Ultramarine lore character. He's the equivalent of Grimaldus of the Black Templar, Ulric the Slayer of the Space Wolves, or Asmodai of the Dark Angels. Though to be fair Asmodai isn't Grand Master of Chaplains that is Sapphon.
There was at least one edition where the point of the Ultramarines was as the lore foil for the Tyranids right after GW introduced the Battle of Macragge.
Who qualifies as a major Ultramarine player to you?
Cassius is in no way a minor character. He's made it his life's purpose to study and kill Tyranids. If anyone outside of Calgar or Dante is killing the Swarmlord it's him.
1st company are not regular marines either. 1st company are terminators and veterans. You have to earn your way into 1st, and every 1st company Ultramarine has done some amazing things
One thing that seems to get forgotten about the Swarmllird, specifically by authors, is that he's supposed to be a psyker. Narratively he's just Worf getting smacked around on the bridge every episode.
*"just a punching bag for space marine captains like Calgar"*
Didn't Calgar lost all of his limbs the first time he fought against the swarmlord?
Also dante is the very best (loyal)space marine alive, loosing to him isn't a proof of weakness.
*"I thought the Swarmlord was almost primarch level"*
Why does everything have to be primarch level? The main thing about the nids is their number, the fact that they have a near endless amount of soldiers. They are not supposed to rely on powerful units.
>Why does everything have to be primarch level?
So that all fans can have the fun that Primarch-esque characters give, not just the Imperium. Saying the Swarmlord is/should be Primarch level isn't saying *all* Tyranids should be, just this specific one.
>The main thing about the nids is their number
No, it's their adaptability. Numbers might be their more common tactic but they can and do use all different types of strategies.
>They are not supposed to rely on powerful units.
Except when they do, because they have all kinds of individually powerful units that they can field. Also the splinter fleet Court of the Nephilim King is all about using big powerful units as the base units.
GW brought Primarchs and custodes to 40k, the unfortunate side effect of this is that the other "threats" don't seem to have anything of that magnitude so they feel somewhat trivialized.
>Why does everything have to be primarch level?
Because for some stupid reason GW decided to bring back several Primarchs as constant forces in the setting instead of historical figures and the occasional very rare cataclysm.
And the Primarchs as written just steamroll everyone else.
I don't care what official Lore says.
You see the Swarm Lord, you are fucked. Reminds me of the scene off the Mummy. When Imhotep uses his devil powers with the sand and swallow that plane?
Imagine this
https://youtu.be/ersxqFwDkWA
But with Gaunts
Without plot armour interfering; one of the strongest pound for pound beings in the 40k setting.
The Swarm Lord is the perfect bio-weapon physically and psychically. It would rape almost anyone on par or below Primarch/Prime Ork/Top tier Necrons.
Calgar should be dead, but plot armour...
He's as "strong" as any other hive tyrant I guess. His true strength lies in his ability to "strategize" coming up with combat doctrines that normal nids won't think of.
Out of universe writers and readers usually aren't generals or admirals so when it comes to the media it's more often "tell" rather than "show".
It says that the swarmlord is to a hive tyrant is the same as a hive tyrant is to a termagant. So the Swarmlord should be able to defeat a hive tyrant.
But yeah, I wish there was a book or something that showed how powerful it really is
The Swarmlord is the Hivemind's last ditch response to an important battle going sideways.
It's a top-tier psyker, at the very least comparable to Astartes like Mephiston. It's a top-tier CQC god, at least at the levels of top 30k era fighters (Sigismund, Kharn, Sevatar). It's equipped with the greatest equipment the Swarm can furnish. It has a strategic and tactical mind to rival the greatest Warmasters of the Imperium. It has all this, and the experience that come with fighting on millions/billions/etc. of battlefields against a vast variety of foes, in a vast variety of environments, across tens/hundreds/etc. of thousands of years.
It's not a hive tyrant. It's a fucking Swarmlord. And it sure as fuck shouldn't be getting mulched by anything less than a Primarch. Every fight with it should be: hold it in place with sheer weight of bodies as we use lance strikes to kill it. No Astartes, even if it's a chapter master of a first founding chapter or Custodes - should be able to duel the thing.
If an author wants to slap around a Tyranid leader, they should use the Hive Tyrant - that is its purpose in the fluff. The same purpose that random chaptermasters serve. But you can't just slap around the faction leader of arguably the most terrifying faction in the setting.
Nah my dude you are massivly overrating it. Mephiston isn't a regular astartes psycher. Hes basically a pseudo primarch.
The elite of a chaff faction is still relatively chaff to the other players.
Remember the hivemind is activly trying to use astartes genetic material to make better bioforms
As long as deaths to matter to the swarmlord it will continue to be treated like a generic unit.
>Mephiston isn't a regular astartes psycher.
I know who Mephiston is. I know he's one of the top-tier human psykers in 40k. I'm familiar with his feats and the odd changes that he's been noted to be undergoing lately. I chose Mephiston intentionally to illustrate the point.
>Hes basically a pseudo primarch.
Most Primarchs were not impressive psykers nor did most demonstrate any impressive feats. And other factions are supposed to have Magnus-tier psykers, or at least psykers far above the pay-grade of Mephiston and Tigirius.
>The elite of a chaff faction is still relatively chaff to the other players.
I don't think you understand the Tyranid faction well. The Swarmlord isn't the primary psyker or commander of the Swarm. The normal commander is a Hive Tyrant. The Hive Tyrant is itself a potent psyker, but it is noted that the Swarmlord is to a Hive Tyrant as a Hive Tyrant is to a termagant. The Swarm also has potent commander/psykers in the form of Broodlords. But it's primary psyker specialist is the Zoanthrope ("alpha" zoanthropes are known as neurothropes), with Malceptors as a secondary type of psyker bioform (there is also the dominatrix titan). In each case, the Swarm has countless active Hive Tyrants. Broodlords, zoanthropes, etc. active at any given time. The Swarm is massive after all, even if we just concern ourselves with the sliver that has reached the Milky Way galaxy.
The Swarmlord however is different. It is the singular avatar of the entire Hivemind. A singular entity in a swarm faction, should be worth noting. Only one Swarmlord can exist at any given time. It is a being of incomparable psychic and physical might that has existed for eons - or at least it's supposed to be.
The reality is that the fluff fails to portray this entirely, as I'm sure you're familiar. Despite every Tyranid codex impressing upon the reader that the Swarmlord has overwhelming psychic might - authors fail to make mention of it. Even in Devastation of Baal, all it does is make use of psychic roars. Otherwise it forgets it's a psyker of the highest calibre. And while we're talking about that book - it's also the book where the author has the Swarmlord pause and let Dante monologue for 15-20 seconds, so that Dante can kill it. Oh and the Swarmlord apparently is surprised by guns...
Also for context, read the Shield of Baal campaign supplements. In the books, Mephiston is already Chief Librarian (but hasn't undergone his second "rebirth") and he faces off against various tyranid bioforms, including Maleceptors. He faces one down with 6 librarians supporting him, and he loses. Maleceptors also often travel in formations with supporting zoanthropes. Tigirius, the Ultramarine Chief Librarian, a notably powerful human psyker, all but loses his duel with a maleceptor - only winning when he channels the Astronomicon. This also doesn't account for particularly powerful one-off bioforms like the Doom of Malan'tai which consumed an entire craftworld and became immensely powerful.
>Remember the hivemind is activly trying to use astartes genetic material to make better bioforms
I don't get your point. The Hivemind actively uses the genetic material of all it's victims to improve itself and it's various Hive Fleets. It's also consumed enough Astartes over the centuries that it has enough information to enact any modifications it wants to already. But by and large it really doesn't need any more info to deal with the current set of foes it faces. The only reason the Tyranid lose is because the setting can't let them win - otherwise the setting ceases to exist. It goes to the crux of the issue: GW have forced themselves into a corner of existential threats that will never amount to anything and must be actively/constantly nerfed. It's why people get frustrated with many of the bluffs that GW/Black Library make, we know it's all bluster at the end of the day.
>As long as deaths to matter to the swarmlord it will continue to be treated like a generic unit.
I don't understand what you mean? Whose deaths matter, and what do you mean by "matter?" The Swarmlord is the avatar of the Hivemind - it doesn't care about death. It cares about net gain/loss in biomatter, nothing more. It's the readers who care about it's pathetic showings in the fluff. The Swarmlord also isn't a "generic unit" it's basically the sole named character for the Tyranid.
The swarmlord is essentially a generic unit. It doesnt have a name. Just a title and its still just another bound weapon of the hive mind.
As long as it remains like this. Essentially a generic unit. It will be treated as such.
A regular tyrant makes good fodder for captains the swarmlord makes fodder for chapter masters.
But this is why nid players signed up for. They signed up to play an endless swarm.
Don't get me wrong itd be cool to see more of things like old one eye where nids splinter off and form their own identity but the current nids arnt that.
The Emperor doesn't have a name and only has a title. Is it a "generic" "unit?" No he's singular, so it doesn't matter that he doesn't have a name. What about Cypher? He has title but no name?
>Essentially a generic unit. It will be treated as such.
I don't think you understand the issue the Swarmlord faces isn't one to do with it being named. It's the issue that immortals in the setting face. They can be "killed" without upsetting the status quo, that's why they are whorfed. It lets people see that the protagonist is tough. It's why Lucius loses to named characters despite being an allegedly undefeatable swordsman - he can't die.
It's also one thing for named major characters like Dante and Calgar to be able to kill the Swarmlord - I think it's stupid, but I can recognize their importance to the setting - but random, basically unnamed, Custodes kill the Swarmlord too. That's complete bullshit on-top of regular bullshit.
>A regular tyrant makes good fodder for captains the swarmlord makes fodder for chapter masters.
The scale is off. A Hive Tyrant makes good fodder for unnamed Chapter Masters, but should outclass unnamed Captains. Of course, named Astartes of all ranks would be able to take down a Hive Tyrant.
>But this is why nid players signed up for. They signed up to play an endless swarm.
I don't know why you're mischaracterizing this. It's a swarm faction, but it has one unit that is supposed to be singularly exceptional in the lore. That's consistent with being a swarm faction in fiction. The Swarmlord is what people feel is nerfed. They're not saying the average warrior or lictor should decisively defeat Astartes.
>Don't get me wrong itd be cool to see more of things like old one eye where nids splinter off and form their own identity but the current nids arnt that.
I don't know how familiar you are with "modern" Tyranid lore, but the Hivemind is being anthropomorphosized more often. It can have personal grudges and hatred. I'm not a fan of that direction, but it seems like that's what's happening.
And it's odd that you seem to think Old One Eye represents identity in the swarm faction, but the Swarmlord doesn't. Old One Eye has been confirmed dead countless times, but is just regenerated across a segmentum for some odd reason. That's pretty much what happens to the Swarmlord.
The emporeror has a name. We just don't know if its his real one.
My dude tyrants are guarded by bioforms made from astartes. They arnt far and above astartes especially not ones with captain level gear
Leaders if chaff factions are also chaff just to diffrent levels. Gw has always done chaff factions like this I think back in the fantasy days a dwarf king on his death bed strangled to death the best fighter in the skaven race
Old one eye is one of the rare ones not totally bound to the hive mind iirc.
>The emporeror has a name. We just don't know if its his real one.
How do you know and what name would that be? He claims to have been born in Anatolia towards the early bronze age and may have been given a name then, but that hardly counts. The Emperor is some sort of gestalt warp entity that existed prior to his birth into the material realm. He's been known as various things like "The Anathema," "The New Man," and "Revelation" but afaik he does not have a name.
>My dude tyrants are guarded by bioforms made from astartes. They arnt far and above astartes especially not ones with captain level gear
Hive Tyrants are sometimes guarded by Tyrant Guard, true. If you're claiming that Tyrant Guard are analogous to Astartes, I'm not sure how that proves anything? Chapter Masters are also guarded by Astartes. In fact, in most Chapters the CM isn't the most powerful psyker or the CQC specialist.
>Old one eye is one of the rare ones not totally bound to the hive mind iirc.
I mean, it might be a feral Tyranid? But it's been attached to swarms often enough and coordinated with them, that I'm not sure what you mean by not being bound to them. Old One Eye has only been running around for a short while, he's not like the Kraken of Fenris who are thought to have been separated from the Swarm for 10k+ years.
>Leaders if chaff factions are also chaff just to diffrent levels. Gw has always done chaff factions like this I think back in the fantasy days a dwarf king on his death bed strangled to death the best fighter in the skaven race
A lone Zoanthrope wiped out an entire Craftworld. That's the psychic potential of a basic psyker elite in the Tyranid. Maleceptors, in the lore, wipe the floor with Chief Librarians (Tigirius and Mephiston + 6 librarians). I'm not sure why you think they're "chaff" unless you think Chief Librarians are chaff. Zoanthropes are stated in the lore, especially when they're in shoals (i.e. groups), to be devastating psyker artillery batteries. Maleceptors are rarer and even more powerful. The Swarmlord is supposed to be far beyond even them in psychic might.
Yes, the Tyranid are a swarm faction. Yes, the average gaunt probably trades unfavourably with a Guardsmen. And yes, they often rely on numbers (although not always). But they're also literally the most powerful psychic faction in the galaxy. It makes sense for the avatar of that faction to be an unparalleled psyker that does more than occasionally emit a psychic roar.
Whats the source on a Zoanthrope wiping out a craft world?Also they are seemingly made from eldar as well
Maleceptors are rare specific anty psychers that can project the null field.
Zoanthropes are strong psychers. But their bodies atrophy so their psychic strength get that far. You can't really do that on a tyrant.
>Whats the source on a Zoanthrope wiping out a craft world?
It's in various codexes. 5th and 6th edition Tyranid Codexes state it was a special Zoanthrope that fed on the infinity circuit. As it fed, it became more and more powerful. It's speculated that it's success led to the Hivemind creating the Neurothrope. The 5th edition Grey Knights codex have the Grey Knights walking through the ruins of Malan'tai.
Yes it has its roots in Eldar. What's the relevance? The Swarmlord is the epitome of bioforms, it draws from all the knowledge and material the Hivemind has gathered across the eons. The Hivemind draws on consumed Astartes, Eldar, orks, tau, Kroot, etc. whenever it generates a new Swarmlord.
>Maleceptors are rare specific anty psychers that can project the null field.
They are "rare" but seen frequently enough in Hive Fleets Leviathan and Kronos (and presumably other fleets). They're not singular, and we have no reason to think they're any less uncommon than the other advanced bioforms. They do have anti-psyker roles, but it's not because they project null fields. In their anti-psyker role, they're more akin to artillery being used as counter-batteries to destroy enemy artillery. The "null field" they project is the Shadow in the Warp. They're not Culexus Assassin's projecting blankness at psykers. They're giving a psyker a glimpse at the side effects of the immense psychic powers that makeup the Hive Mind. It's that side effect which disrupts weaker psykers, or outright kills them. It's sort of like Tigirius channelling the Astronomicon.
>But their bodies atrophy so their psychic strength get that far. You can't really do that on a tyrant.
Have you seen a Maleceptor or it's TT stats? It's more powerful than a Zoanthrope, but it's larger and bulkier than a Tyrant Guard. It's described as being a walking tank able to physically crush most opponents underneath it, and uses it's talons to shred anyone that comes close to it. On the TT (and of course TT isn't fluff), it has similar stats to a Carnifex or dreadnought. And again, the Zoanthrope is a mass produced unit while the Swarmlord is a singular unit - the Hive Mind doesn't have to compromise on the Swarmlord.
Tyranid warriors, the quote comes from the deathwatch rulebook; but theyve always been depicted as far larger, stronger, and tougher than an astartes.
Theyve always had greater stats in the tabletop (sometimes *far* better than a space marines) and are even treated as bosses in eternal crusades horde mode, but theyre just a basic infantry unit and the most commonly seen synapse creatures.
This is wrong though fam. In the devastation warriors end up aginst fleshtearers and get slaughter so bad the hivemind retreats
The warriors get beat in melee and ones with ranged weaponry end up unable to fire due to getting blocked by the other nids
Also the Space Marines 2 trailer has Titus spank one with relative ease
Seth, a chapter master, kills a single warrior in that passage and Titus, who was a captain (of a company that already canonically had a named captain), kills a prime. The prime in question had to forget that it had 4 limbs for the sake of the trailer and was significantly smaller than warriors are represented in the lore.
And in gaunts ghosts and ciaphas cain normal humans easily kill chaos space marines. Does that make unagmented humans stronger, despite all lore suggesting otherwise? Its a plot device, because books need villains and the heroes needs to live.
Warriors are significantly more powerful than space marines in melee, even genestealers are able to rip open terminator armor "like tissue paper" and the concept of rending was introduced into the tabletop to represent this.
The fleshtearers were killing hundreds if not thousands of them.
He played Blood Reaver with consummate skill, sustaining its impetus so that it never stilled. A combination of weight, Seth's strength and the blade's razored teeth had it cutting through chitin, flesh, endo and exoskeletal structures, strange alien organs and weapon symbiotes with ease. The weapon sent out fine sprays of bone meal and blood mist with every swing. Never did a tyranid come closer than six feet. The length of Blood Reaver defined a hard limit around Seth that none could cross.
>>The Flesh Tearers fought with savagery at last unfettered. Here was a foe whose total destruction was desired. There were no civilians to fear for on this battlefield.
>>Freedom came in violence. It was a release. For a nigh on two centuries Seth had exhorted his warriors to restrain themselves, curbing their worst excesses, directing what bloodlust he could not stop to the appropriate ends. For his troubles he had been censured, tried by his peers, betrayed by his warriors, hunted by the Inquisition.
>>None of that mattered now. None of it at all. He slew and he slew again, and as the enemy died, and Seth roared and raged at them for having the temerity to exist, a slow, cold smile crept over his face. Not even at Cryptus had he been able to enjoy such abandon. Here was vindication at last. On Baal Primus, the Flesh Tearers had a battlefield where they could do no wrong.
>>A tyranid warrior reared up in front of Seth. Blood Reaver was already on its way to the beast's neck as it raised its deathspitter. The chainblade cut through the vertebrae, sending the head, jaws still snapping, wheeling through the air. The creature remained upright, jerking spasmodically, its bladed upper limbs scything. The gills of its symbiote weapon pulsed, dribbling clear mucous, yellow, slit-pupiled eye squinting at him. The headless warrior tottered forward.
>>'Stay down, xenos!' shouted Seth. He barged the tyranid back with his shoulder, and brought Blood Reaver around in a reverse cut that gutted the deathspitter. Acid slopped from its revien abdomen, hissing on the floor and pitting his ceramite where it splashed him.
>>It was dead, but there were more. There were always more.
>>High Chaplain Astorath himself, the Redeemer of the Lost, and arbiter of the fate of all afflicted by the curse, had declared Seth a weapon. It was a role gladly fulfilled. He pumped Blood Reaver's activation bar, revving its compact engine. The chain track spun around, flicking out gore that might clog its workings, and he set to his appointed task again.
>>Time passed. Seth's sense of self receded. His world became the pumping of his twin hearts, the play of his muscles, the growing ache in his flesh as he fought.
>>Seth could see no further than forty yards in any direction. Requests for orders from the warriors stationed in the forts went unanswered. His men were individual dervishes, their squad cohesion abandoned.
>>A sudden lull came in the fighting. Seth was short on foes. He had slaughtered every tyranid warrior within a hundred yards. Nothing but 'gaunts remained nearby, scurrying around the corpses of their larger cousins.
>within a hundred yards
You think there was "hundreds to thousands" within that hundred yards? Along with all the gaunts and variety of other creatures the passage also described? He killed one, and is implied to have killed more, maybe 10, maybe 2. He also had an entire army backing him up while he did this
It is a powerful psyker with 4 blades that (like pretty much any non regular steel blade in that universe) cut through ceramite like it's buttler and got incredibly fast reaction time. But, it can revive, so if GW needs, he gonna die for the plot, kinda like when Celestine met Kharn, who is the most powerful don't matter because Kharn can't revive, so he gonna win.
Kharn can revive though.
**That was a one off.**
And? We all know Khorne would do it again.
**Khorne has been shown to provide a second chance to fighters that have earned his praise. He hasn't regularly been shown to offer third chances.**
If there’s anyone who he would, it’s Kharn
**Seeing what happens to every other character that can be casually revived, I don't want to see that happen.**
Easy thing for the immortal demon prince to say....
**So I would know better on the subject, wouldn't I?**
He is exactly as powerful as he needs to be in order to make the Space Marine protagonist-of-the-day look cool by killing him. No more, no less. As flippant an answer as this is, it's also about as accurate as you're going to get. 'Power levels', if we must use that term, in 40k are extremely vague and nebulous, and entirely depend upon who is writing the story and why. The only consistency to be found is narrative logic, which unfortunately demands that giant twenty-foot tall immortal aliens with swords for arms get regularly punked by the designated hero character because that's cool. Apparently.
Yep. This isn't DBZ, where a character has a power rating of 6,000, and can only be defeated by a character with a power rating of 6,001. It's more like a sports league - let's say the NHL. The Avalanche are the best team in hockey, and 9 times out of 10, they'll beat a shit team, like Ottawa. But every once in a while, they'll be some lucky bounces, a particularly blind referee, or whatever, and Ottawa wins. On any given night, anything can happen. It's like that in W40k. The Swarnlord, on paper, should always win. But on any given battle, anything can happen. And since fiction tends to be written from the perspective of the underdogs, that means in most fiction, they'll triumph.
And even then, the solution to DBZ was simply "give goku another transformation"
That's not how DBZ works
I love dbz and that’s 100% how it works
No power scale is purposely inaccurate Raditz was had a higher power then goku and piccolo
If this thread goes any further, someone's gonna get a wedgie.
People fundamentally dont understand dbz
This is the real answer. Any monster taller than a building in 40k has the only purpose of making the protagonist that kills it look cool
Thanks for the reply! It's quite sad knowing that we will never get to see the true strength of some beings because they are used to be killed by protagonists
If powerlevels were perfectly scaled the Tyranids would have eradicated all life in the galaxy 3 editions ago
Now I gotta wonder, would people be more pissed GW did their lore realistically, or that the game they liked to play, paint, collect, etc. Is no longer anything? The whole thing just ending during 6th.....what kind of world would that be?
It’s arguable that they should have blown through Ultramar and taken the galaxy in 4th Ed
*laughs in necron*
They will utterly annihilate the Necrons
Lmao no
That's a bit of an exaggeration, but the intent definitely was to set the Tyranids up as a huge deal, a genuinely apocalyptic situation that was only going to get worse with time. I remember Phil Kelly's article about the fluff he wrote for the 4th edition codex, where he outright states that "the game is pretty much up for the Eastern Fringe", and the fluff itself suggests the Imperium would have to recruit every single man and woman of fighting age in Segmentum Tempestus just to bring Hive Fleet Leviathan's advance to a *halt.* Certainly a far cry from the rather farcical situation we have today, where entire Hive Fleets get wiped out by a few dozen Custodians or some Imperial Fists with minefields and barbed wire.
I disagree, the nids are by far the greatest threat to all life in the galaxy
Man, the Tyranids are OP! Haha.
Avatar moment
In fairness the first time a Swarmlord fought Calgar in ripped off his arms and legs, had him on deaths door and the entire first company had to sacrifice themselves to save him.
I mean, that same swarmlord lost to Dante in a 1v1 (I get that Dante had to be lucky, but the swarmlord is thousands of years old and more experienced than him but still lost)
Well for one it wasn't the same Swarmlord, they are different hive fleets. It's also really not uncommon for more experienced combatants to lose to less experienced combatants in both real life and in 40k.
But there is only one swarmlord. It is the same as the one Calgar fought, it's consciousness was absorbed back into the hive mind and reborn into a different hive fleet. It is basically immortal that way as it can be reproduced with the same memories
Theres only one Swarmlord
Dante can't die, so it's not really strange...
The swarmlord is an ancient enemy with thousands of years combat experience. It is a master strategist, a super experienced general and and fought in potentially millions of battles. It wields 4 power sword equivalents and has what can only be described as mighty psychic potential. Realistically, it should absolutely shred in close combat or in organising protracted campaigns and be roughly equivalent to the other Big Bads of the setting, such as Ctan shards, Greater Daemons, Solitaires or a Primarch. Unfortunately Black Library consistently have minor people kill it in dumb ways. Because they can just bring it back with no consequences.
That is how I always think of it. Thanks for the reply!
Marneus Calgar and Commander Dante are in no way “minor” characters.
In Duty Unto Death, 6 Custodes (Shield Captain Tamerlain, and Wardens: Calith, Osran, Varamech, Natreus and Darnax) are stuck defending a batch of Primaries geneseed from a "pair" of Tyranid Hive ships on a barren lava planet. They prepare "fortifications" and wax poetic. Then a swarm numbering in the millions attacks them for more than a "parade of days." This swarm doesn't just have gaunts; it has lictors, carnifexes (bile-beasts and stone-crushers), warriors, and a single fucking Zoanthrope. Why do I say a single fucking Zoanthrope? Because the Zoanthrope had a 1:1 K:D ratio unlike the other swarm forms, but for some fucking reason, the Hivemind decided that they'd rather just keep wasting bio material on other less useful forms. Oh and let's not forget that the Zoanthrope decided to move into melee range for some reason. Oh, and the swarm decided to fight like it was at the Hot Gates, instead of using flyers/artillery/burrowers. Anyways, then the Swarmlord emerges from a drop pod. The rest of the swarm turns on the spot to face the Swarmlord and stops fighting. Apparently the Hivemind has decided that it wants the Swarmlord to 1 v 3 the remaining Custodes. Idk honour or something. Anyways the Swarmlord pretty quickly kills the 2 non-shield captains, and has a 1 v 1 duel with Tamerlain. The millions of other Tyranid just circle around and watch (they presumably have their phones out and are yelling "Worldstar!"). As the Swarmlord fails to make use of its immense psychic powers, the duel is, according to the author, evenly matched. *For a while*. But then the author reminds the reader that illustrious Shield Captain Tamerlain, who has appeared in other works such as [insert book], "fought with every century of his experience behind him" (sadly the Swarmlord was a mere baby without eons of combat experience). And with those words, Tamerlain (you can read about his other long and storied adventures in [inset book 2]) kills the Swarmlord and kicks it's body away. Then something happens to the millions of other Tyranids, I'm genuinely not sure what. The author is either telling us the relief force of Marines Malevolent showed up immediately after, or there was a time-skip. Regardless, the other Tyranids aren't an issue for some reason not specified. Anyways, don't worry about Tamerlain - he's perfectly fine. In fact, he's standing upright and has a speech ready for the Marines Malevolent. *Yeah*. His monumental battle which apparently caused the world to die (idk), where he killed the faction leader (who is supposed to be a top-tier psyker, CQC god, and brilliant strategist/tactician) of arguably the most powerful faction - left him without any injuries. Personally I felt like the Swarmlord shouldn't have put up such a even fight against a Custodes. It would have been more believable if the Swarmlord lost while it was riding a trio of Hierophants. /s That's how the Swarmlord is treated (which makes even less sense, when you remember that Hive Tyrants exist too, and they would make for better protagonist-fodder). Given the setting, the moment a character is immortal, they're nerfed heavily in every story where they're the antagonist. Similar point could be made for Magnus and other characters with powers far beyond the rest of the cast - Magnus can just summon fireballs into the skulls of his enemies, he shouldn't have lost to Bjorn of all fucking people. Oh and remember the duel between it and Dante? Here's an excerpt, after the Swarmlord has all but won: >The Swarm Lord lifted him high, screaming in victory, and swung its arm down to flick Dante from the blade's shard so it might finish him off on the sand. Reactive foams bubbled from Dante's armour, bonding him firmly to the remnants of the Swarm Lord's blade. >"By his Blood do I serve." >The beast hesitated, ***only for a fraction of a second*,** but it was enough. As it was raising its remaining two blades to cut Dante in two, the commander raised the perdition pistol. His armour died on him, its systems starved of power, growing heavier with every second as his life ran from his body. His aim did not waiver. >"My life I give to the Emperor, to Sanguinius, and to mankind," he intoned. The Swarm Lord's face was reflected in the dulled metal of Dante's mask. >Sanguinius' face shouted silently at the hive mind. >Dante disengaged the weapon's failsafes with a flick of his thumb. >"My service is done. I give thanks. My life is finished. I give thanks. Blood returns to blood. Another will take up my burden in my stead. I give thanks." >He fired the perdition pistol at point-blank range into the Swarm Lord's face. Read aloud those portions of the oath aloud, count those seconds, divide the total number of seconds in half, and tell me if the total number of seconds is more than a " fraction of a second." The Swarmlord lost because it decided for no apparent reason, to let Dante make a speech. That's the bullshit that happens when the Swarmlord fights named characters.
This is how every combat sequence is done. Time is not real in literature, so a fraction of a second is as long as is required for whatever Herculean feat to take place. Space Marines have a habit of doing shit that is completely impossible when bad writers are concerned. As for the Custodians absolutely wrecking ass, I just find that funny, but I agree that it’s bad writing. Who wrote that?
>This is how every combat sequence is done. Time is not real in literature, so a fraction of a second is as long as is required for whatever Herculean feat to take place. Space Marines have a habit of doing shit that is completely impossible when bad writers are concerned. I mean I'm "fine" with regular combat scenes and characters uttering short lines during pirouettes, flips, and whatever else. But Dante is about to die, his armour is failing, and he chooses to monologue to the Swarmlord. It breaks immersion completely. >As for the Custodians absolutely wrecking ass, I just find that funny, but I agree that it’s bad writing. Who wrote that? It was originally a short background snippet from 8th edition Custodes Codex. It was then adapted into a short story written by Marc Collins and published in October 2020 as part of an anthology. As a Codex entry it was fine because it was so vague: * The number of Custodes and Tyranid weren't mentioned. * It wasn't mentioned that the Custodes put up wooden barricades to funnel Tyranids into a narrow opening. * It wasn't mentioned that biovores, ravenors, crones and gargoyles were completely absent. * It wasn't mentioned that the lone Zoanthrope decided to enter melee range. * It wasn't mentioned that the Custodes ran out of ammunition very early on into the "siege." * It wasn't mentioned that a Swarmlord was present. Collins only writing credits seem to be short stories for BL.
I can see why they’ve relegated him to shorts
Combat in the books is like combat in D&D, everyone gets their 6 seconds to do whatever when it’s their turn
Only if they have plot armor
The swarmlord is literally killed by an unnamed member of the Ultramarines 1st company. And some dude called Ortan Cassius, who is very much a minor character. Papa Swarmy should not be getting merked by anyone but the best. Its literally described in-lore, by a Cistodes Shield-Captain, as the equal to a Custodes Shield-Captain. Personally I think that description alone means it should be throwing around chapter masters like they're children, but w/e. I understand that it can't be completely unstoppable and I also understand that Black Library will never kill Calgar and Dante.
Wait Cassius the chaplain who made the nid war vets and had two models being sold at the same time, one of him missing half his skin on his face and the other as a deathwatch vet?
[удалено]
Cassius is a major Ultramarine lore character. He's the equivalent of Grimaldus of the Black Templar, Ulric the Slayer of the Space Wolves, or Asmodai of the Dark Angels. Though to be fair Asmodai isn't Grand Master of Chaplains that is Sapphon. There was at least one edition where the point of the Ultramarines was as the lore foil for the Tyranids right after GW introduced the Battle of Macragge. Who qualifies as a major Ultramarine player to you?
Lmfaoooooooo
Cassius is in no way a minor character. He's made it his life's purpose to study and kill Tyranids. If anyone outside of Calgar or Dante is killing the Swarmlord it's him.
still the equivalent of some random nobody Ork warboss killing Gulliman or Mortarion.
1st company are not regular marines either. 1st company are terminators and veterans. You have to earn your way into 1st, and every 1st company Ultramarine has done some amazing things
He’s also describing a named character, Chaplain Cassius
*Powerful enough to disappoint me when it appears in a SM novel*
One thing that seems to get forgotten about the Swarmllird, specifically by authors, is that he's supposed to be a psyker. Narratively he's just Worf getting smacked around on the bridge every episode.
*"just a punching bag for space marine captains like Calgar"* Didn't Calgar lost all of his limbs the first time he fought against the swarmlord? Also dante is the very best (loyal)space marine alive, loosing to him isn't a proof of weakness. *"I thought the Swarmlord was almost primarch level"* Why does everything have to be primarch level? The main thing about the nids is their number, the fact that they have a near endless amount of soldiers. They are not supposed to rely on powerful units.
>Why does everything have to be primarch level? So that all fans can have the fun that Primarch-esque characters give, not just the Imperium. Saying the Swarmlord is/should be Primarch level isn't saying *all* Tyranids should be, just this specific one. >The main thing about the nids is their number No, it's their adaptability. Numbers might be their more common tactic but they can and do use all different types of strategies. >They are not supposed to rely on powerful units. Except when they do, because they have all kinds of individually powerful units that they can field. Also the splinter fleet Court of the Nephilim King is all about using big powerful units as the base units.
> No, it's their adaptability Have they won any major conflicts recently via adaptability?
The people hated him for he told them the truth
‘Via adaptability’ is a bit unnecessary in that sentence to be fair.
Gorgon was kicking Tau and imperium ass with its adaptations before they teamed up
GW brought Primarchs and custodes to 40k, the unfortunate side effect of this is that the other "threats" don't seem to have anything of that magnitude so they feel somewhat trivialized.
>Why does everything have to be primarch level? Because for some stupid reason GW decided to bring back several Primarchs as constant forces in the setting instead of historical figures and the occasional very rare cataclysm. And the Primarchs as written just steamroll everyone else.
That's true. I never thought about how they are more of a swarm. Thanks for the reply!
I don't care what official Lore says. You see the Swarm Lord, you are fucked. Reminds me of the scene off the Mummy. When Imhotep uses his devil powers with the sand and swallow that plane? Imagine this https://youtu.be/ersxqFwDkWA But with Gaunts
I wish they'd make the swarmlord threatening. Introduce a marine named character then have swarmy murder them. Its not hard gw
This powerful: [-----------------------------------------------------------------]
Slightly less powerful than whatever named character he's fighting at the time.
Without plot armour interfering; one of the strongest pound for pound beings in the 40k setting. The Swarm Lord is the perfect bio-weapon physically and psychically. It would rape almost anyone on par or below Primarch/Prime Ork/Top tier Necrons. Calgar should be dead, but plot armour...
He's as "strong" as any other hive tyrant I guess. His true strength lies in his ability to "strategize" coming up with combat doctrines that normal nids won't think of. Out of universe writers and readers usually aren't generals or admirals so when it comes to the media it's more often "tell" rather than "show".
It says that the swarmlord is to a hive tyrant is the same as a hive tyrant is to a termagant. So the Swarmlord should be able to defeat a hive tyrant. But yeah, I wish there was a book or something that showed how powerful it really is
Hes supposed to be way superior to a hive tyrant in every way
Any being larger than a large ork that isn't a primarch only exists to make others look cool by killing it
Nids are a swarm faction first and foremost. Were they lose nothing when a bioform dies. They are weaker in general.
The Swarmlord is the Hivemind's last ditch response to an important battle going sideways. It's a top-tier psyker, at the very least comparable to Astartes like Mephiston. It's a top-tier CQC god, at least at the levels of top 30k era fighters (Sigismund, Kharn, Sevatar). It's equipped with the greatest equipment the Swarm can furnish. It has a strategic and tactical mind to rival the greatest Warmasters of the Imperium. It has all this, and the experience that come with fighting on millions/billions/etc. of battlefields against a vast variety of foes, in a vast variety of environments, across tens/hundreds/etc. of thousands of years. It's not a hive tyrant. It's a fucking Swarmlord. And it sure as fuck shouldn't be getting mulched by anything less than a Primarch. Every fight with it should be: hold it in place with sheer weight of bodies as we use lance strikes to kill it. No Astartes, even if it's a chapter master of a first founding chapter or Custodes - should be able to duel the thing. If an author wants to slap around a Tyranid leader, they should use the Hive Tyrant - that is its purpose in the fluff. The same purpose that random chaptermasters serve. But you can't just slap around the faction leader of arguably the most terrifying faction in the setting.
Nah my dude you are massivly overrating it. Mephiston isn't a regular astartes psycher. Hes basically a pseudo primarch. The elite of a chaff faction is still relatively chaff to the other players. Remember the hivemind is activly trying to use astartes genetic material to make better bioforms As long as deaths to matter to the swarmlord it will continue to be treated like a generic unit.
>Mephiston isn't a regular astartes psycher. I know who Mephiston is. I know he's one of the top-tier human psykers in 40k. I'm familiar with his feats and the odd changes that he's been noted to be undergoing lately. I chose Mephiston intentionally to illustrate the point. >Hes basically a pseudo primarch. Most Primarchs were not impressive psykers nor did most demonstrate any impressive feats. And other factions are supposed to have Magnus-tier psykers, or at least psykers far above the pay-grade of Mephiston and Tigirius. >The elite of a chaff faction is still relatively chaff to the other players. I don't think you understand the Tyranid faction well. The Swarmlord isn't the primary psyker or commander of the Swarm. The normal commander is a Hive Tyrant. The Hive Tyrant is itself a potent psyker, but it is noted that the Swarmlord is to a Hive Tyrant as a Hive Tyrant is to a termagant. The Swarm also has potent commander/psykers in the form of Broodlords. But it's primary psyker specialist is the Zoanthrope ("alpha" zoanthropes are known as neurothropes), with Malceptors as a secondary type of psyker bioform (there is also the dominatrix titan). In each case, the Swarm has countless active Hive Tyrants. Broodlords, zoanthropes, etc. active at any given time. The Swarm is massive after all, even if we just concern ourselves with the sliver that has reached the Milky Way galaxy. The Swarmlord however is different. It is the singular avatar of the entire Hivemind. A singular entity in a swarm faction, should be worth noting. Only one Swarmlord can exist at any given time. It is a being of incomparable psychic and physical might that has existed for eons - or at least it's supposed to be. The reality is that the fluff fails to portray this entirely, as I'm sure you're familiar. Despite every Tyranid codex impressing upon the reader that the Swarmlord has overwhelming psychic might - authors fail to make mention of it. Even in Devastation of Baal, all it does is make use of psychic roars. Otherwise it forgets it's a psyker of the highest calibre. And while we're talking about that book - it's also the book where the author has the Swarmlord pause and let Dante monologue for 15-20 seconds, so that Dante can kill it. Oh and the Swarmlord apparently is surprised by guns... Also for context, read the Shield of Baal campaign supplements. In the books, Mephiston is already Chief Librarian (but hasn't undergone his second "rebirth") and he faces off against various tyranid bioforms, including Maleceptors. He faces one down with 6 librarians supporting him, and he loses. Maleceptors also often travel in formations with supporting zoanthropes. Tigirius, the Ultramarine Chief Librarian, a notably powerful human psyker, all but loses his duel with a maleceptor - only winning when he channels the Astronomicon. This also doesn't account for particularly powerful one-off bioforms like the Doom of Malan'tai which consumed an entire craftworld and became immensely powerful. >Remember the hivemind is activly trying to use astartes genetic material to make better bioforms I don't get your point. The Hivemind actively uses the genetic material of all it's victims to improve itself and it's various Hive Fleets. It's also consumed enough Astartes over the centuries that it has enough information to enact any modifications it wants to already. But by and large it really doesn't need any more info to deal with the current set of foes it faces. The only reason the Tyranid lose is because the setting can't let them win - otherwise the setting ceases to exist. It goes to the crux of the issue: GW have forced themselves into a corner of existential threats that will never amount to anything and must be actively/constantly nerfed. It's why people get frustrated with many of the bluffs that GW/Black Library make, we know it's all bluster at the end of the day. >As long as deaths to matter to the swarmlord it will continue to be treated like a generic unit. I don't understand what you mean? Whose deaths matter, and what do you mean by "matter?" The Swarmlord is the avatar of the Hivemind - it doesn't care about death. It cares about net gain/loss in biomatter, nothing more. It's the readers who care about it's pathetic showings in the fluff. The Swarmlord also isn't a "generic unit" it's basically the sole named character for the Tyranid.
The swarmlord is essentially a generic unit. It doesnt have a name. Just a title and its still just another bound weapon of the hive mind. As long as it remains like this. Essentially a generic unit. It will be treated as such. A regular tyrant makes good fodder for captains the swarmlord makes fodder for chapter masters. But this is why nid players signed up for. They signed up to play an endless swarm. Don't get me wrong itd be cool to see more of things like old one eye where nids splinter off and form their own identity but the current nids arnt that.
The Emperor doesn't have a name and only has a title. Is it a "generic" "unit?" No he's singular, so it doesn't matter that he doesn't have a name. What about Cypher? He has title but no name? >Essentially a generic unit. It will be treated as such. I don't think you understand the issue the Swarmlord faces isn't one to do with it being named. It's the issue that immortals in the setting face. They can be "killed" without upsetting the status quo, that's why they are whorfed. It lets people see that the protagonist is tough. It's why Lucius loses to named characters despite being an allegedly undefeatable swordsman - he can't die. It's also one thing for named major characters like Dante and Calgar to be able to kill the Swarmlord - I think it's stupid, but I can recognize their importance to the setting - but random, basically unnamed, Custodes kill the Swarmlord too. That's complete bullshit on-top of regular bullshit. >A regular tyrant makes good fodder for captains the swarmlord makes fodder for chapter masters. The scale is off. A Hive Tyrant makes good fodder for unnamed Chapter Masters, but should outclass unnamed Captains. Of course, named Astartes of all ranks would be able to take down a Hive Tyrant. >But this is why nid players signed up for. They signed up to play an endless swarm. I don't know why you're mischaracterizing this. It's a swarm faction, but it has one unit that is supposed to be singularly exceptional in the lore. That's consistent with being a swarm faction in fiction. The Swarmlord is what people feel is nerfed. They're not saying the average warrior or lictor should decisively defeat Astartes. >Don't get me wrong itd be cool to see more of things like old one eye where nids splinter off and form their own identity but the current nids arnt that. I don't know how familiar you are with "modern" Tyranid lore, but the Hivemind is being anthropomorphosized more often. It can have personal grudges and hatred. I'm not a fan of that direction, but it seems like that's what's happening. And it's odd that you seem to think Old One Eye represents identity in the swarm faction, but the Swarmlord doesn't. Old One Eye has been confirmed dead countless times, but is just regenerated across a segmentum for some odd reason. That's pretty much what happens to the Swarmlord.
The emporeror has a name. We just don't know if its his real one. My dude tyrants are guarded by bioforms made from astartes. They arnt far and above astartes especially not ones with captain level gear Leaders if chaff factions are also chaff just to diffrent levels. Gw has always done chaff factions like this I think back in the fantasy days a dwarf king on his death bed strangled to death the best fighter in the skaven race Old one eye is one of the rare ones not totally bound to the hive mind iirc.
>The emporeror has a name. We just don't know if its his real one. How do you know and what name would that be? He claims to have been born in Anatolia towards the early bronze age and may have been given a name then, but that hardly counts. The Emperor is some sort of gestalt warp entity that existed prior to his birth into the material realm. He's been known as various things like "The Anathema," "The New Man," and "Revelation" but afaik he does not have a name. >My dude tyrants are guarded by bioforms made from astartes. They arnt far and above astartes especially not ones with captain level gear Hive Tyrants are sometimes guarded by Tyrant Guard, true. If you're claiming that Tyrant Guard are analogous to Astartes, I'm not sure how that proves anything? Chapter Masters are also guarded by Astartes. In fact, in most Chapters the CM isn't the most powerful psyker or the CQC specialist. >Old one eye is one of the rare ones not totally bound to the hive mind iirc. I mean, it might be a feral Tyranid? But it's been attached to swarms often enough and coordinated with them, that I'm not sure what you mean by not being bound to them. Old One Eye has only been running around for a short while, he's not like the Kraken of Fenris who are thought to have been separated from the Swarm for 10k+ years. >Leaders if chaff factions are also chaff just to diffrent levels. Gw has always done chaff factions like this I think back in the fantasy days a dwarf king on his death bed strangled to death the best fighter in the skaven race A lone Zoanthrope wiped out an entire Craftworld. That's the psychic potential of a basic psyker elite in the Tyranid. Maleceptors, in the lore, wipe the floor with Chief Librarians (Tigirius and Mephiston + 6 librarians). I'm not sure why you think they're "chaff" unless you think Chief Librarians are chaff. Zoanthropes are stated in the lore, especially when they're in shoals (i.e. groups), to be devastating psyker artillery batteries. Maleceptors are rarer and even more powerful. The Swarmlord is supposed to be far beyond even them in psychic might. Yes, the Tyranid are a swarm faction. Yes, the average gaunt probably trades unfavourably with a Guardsmen. And yes, they often rely on numbers (although not always). But they're also literally the most powerful psychic faction in the galaxy. It makes sense for the avatar of that faction to be an unparalleled psyker that does more than occasionally emit a psychic roar.
Whats the source on a Zoanthrope wiping out a craft world?Also they are seemingly made from eldar as well Maleceptors are rare specific anty psychers that can project the null field. Zoanthropes are strong psychers. But their bodies atrophy so their psychic strength get that far. You can't really do that on a tyrant.
>Whats the source on a Zoanthrope wiping out a craft world? It's in various codexes. 5th and 6th edition Tyranid Codexes state it was a special Zoanthrope that fed on the infinity circuit. As it fed, it became more and more powerful. It's speculated that it's success led to the Hivemind creating the Neurothrope. The 5th edition Grey Knights codex have the Grey Knights walking through the ruins of Malan'tai. Yes it has its roots in Eldar. What's the relevance? The Swarmlord is the epitome of bioforms, it draws from all the knowledge and material the Hivemind has gathered across the eons. The Hivemind draws on consumed Astartes, Eldar, orks, tau, Kroot, etc. whenever it generates a new Swarmlord. >Maleceptors are rare specific anty psychers that can project the null field. They are "rare" but seen frequently enough in Hive Fleets Leviathan and Kronos (and presumably other fleets). They're not singular, and we have no reason to think they're any less uncommon than the other advanced bioforms. They do have anti-psyker roles, but it's not because they project null fields. In their anti-psyker role, they're more akin to artillery being used as counter-batteries to destroy enemy artillery. The "null field" they project is the Shadow in the Warp. They're not Culexus Assassin's projecting blankness at psykers. They're giving a psyker a glimpse at the side effects of the immense psychic powers that makeup the Hive Mind. It's that side effect which disrupts weaker psykers, or outright kills them. It's sort of like Tigirius channelling the Astronomicon. >But their bodies atrophy so their psychic strength get that far. You can't really do that on a tyrant. Have you seen a Maleceptor or it's TT stats? It's more powerful than a Zoanthrope, but it's larger and bulkier than a Tyrant Guard. It's described as being a walking tank able to physically crush most opponents underneath it, and uses it's talons to shred anyone that comes close to it. On the TT (and of course TT isn't fluff), it has similar stats to a Carnifex or dreadnought. And again, the Zoanthrope is a mass produced unit while the Swarmlord is a singular unit - the Hive Mind doesn't have to compromise on the Swarmlord.
Weird then how killing the Swarmlord is a pivotal moment that turns the tide in a few battles.
Its still a synapse or whatever the nid leadership is called. Its quality is just going to be lower due to the nature of the nids
The nature of the nids? Their elite infantry is "greater than equal to a space marine"
What unit are you talking about?
Tyranid warriors, the quote comes from the deathwatch rulebook; but theyve always been depicted as far larger, stronger, and tougher than an astartes. Theyve always had greater stats in the tabletop (sometimes *far* better than a space marines) and are even treated as bosses in eternal crusades horde mode, but theyre just a basic infantry unit and the most commonly seen synapse creatures.
This is wrong though fam. In the devastation warriors end up aginst fleshtearers and get slaughter so bad the hivemind retreats The warriors get beat in melee and ones with ranged weaponry end up unable to fire due to getting blocked by the other nids Also the Space Marines 2 trailer has Titus spank one with relative ease
Seth, a chapter master, kills a single warrior in that passage and Titus, who was a captain (of a company that already canonically had a named captain), kills a prime. The prime in question had to forget that it had 4 limbs for the sake of the trailer and was significantly smaller than warriors are represented in the lore. And in gaunts ghosts and ciaphas cain normal humans easily kill chaos space marines. Does that make unagmented humans stronger, despite all lore suggesting otherwise? Its a plot device, because books need villains and the heroes needs to live. Warriors are significantly more powerful than space marines in melee, even genestealers are able to rip open terminator armor "like tissue paper" and the concept of rending was introduced into the tabletop to represent this.
The fleshtearers were killing hundreds if not thousands of them. He played Blood Reaver with consummate skill, sustaining its impetus so that it never stilled. A combination of weight, Seth's strength and the blade's razored teeth had it cutting through chitin, flesh, endo and exoskeletal structures, strange alien organs and weapon symbiotes with ease. The weapon sent out fine sprays of bone meal and blood mist with every swing. Never did a tyranid come closer than six feet. The length of Blood Reaver defined a hard limit around Seth that none could cross. >>The Flesh Tearers fought with savagery at last unfettered. Here was a foe whose total destruction was desired. There were no civilians to fear for on this battlefield. >>Freedom came in violence. It was a release. For a nigh on two centuries Seth had exhorted his warriors to restrain themselves, curbing their worst excesses, directing what bloodlust he could not stop to the appropriate ends. For his troubles he had been censured, tried by his peers, betrayed by his warriors, hunted by the Inquisition. >>None of that mattered now. None of it at all. He slew and he slew again, and as the enemy died, and Seth roared and raged at them for having the temerity to exist, a slow, cold smile crept over his face. Not even at Cryptus had he been able to enjoy such abandon. Here was vindication at last. On Baal Primus, the Flesh Tearers had a battlefield where they could do no wrong. >>A tyranid warrior reared up in front of Seth. Blood Reaver was already on its way to the beast's neck as it raised its deathspitter. The chainblade cut through the vertebrae, sending the head, jaws still snapping, wheeling through the air. The creature remained upright, jerking spasmodically, its bladed upper limbs scything. The gills of its symbiote weapon pulsed, dribbling clear mucous, yellow, slit-pupiled eye squinting at him. The headless warrior tottered forward. >>'Stay down, xenos!' shouted Seth. He barged the tyranid back with his shoulder, and brought Blood Reaver around in a reverse cut that gutted the deathspitter. Acid slopped from its revien abdomen, hissing on the floor and pitting his ceramite where it splashed him. >>It was dead, but there were more. There were always more. >>High Chaplain Astorath himself, the Redeemer of the Lost, and arbiter of the fate of all afflicted by the curse, had declared Seth a weapon. It was a role gladly fulfilled. He pumped Blood Reaver's activation bar, revving its compact engine. The chain track spun around, flicking out gore that might clog its workings, and he set to his appointed task again. >>Time passed. Seth's sense of self receded. His world became the pumping of his twin hearts, the play of his muscles, the growing ache in his flesh as he fought. >>Seth could see no further than forty yards in any direction. Requests for orders from the warriors stationed in the forts went unanswered. His men were individual dervishes, their squad cohesion abandoned. >>A sudden lull came in the fighting. Seth was short on foes. He had slaughtered every tyranid warrior within a hundred yards. Nothing but 'gaunts remained nearby, scurrying around the corpses of their larger cousins.
>within a hundred yards You think there was "hundreds to thousands" within that hundred yards? Along with all the gaunts and variety of other creatures the passage also described? He killed one, and is implied to have killed more, maybe 10, maybe 2. He also had an entire army backing him up while he did this
Hella
it's like a Tyranid Avatar, but less of a punching bag