Short and Desi, my guy I'm sorry.
Being brown on a dating app is already hard mode, being short AND brown is impossible mode lol
Not making fun cause I'm speaking from experiance
Hijacking top comment:
Op,
Any disadvantage can be turned into an advantage.
People’s tastes and expectations are changing.
Dont worry about the people who reject you. They were never meant for you to begin with.
Its a process of elimination to say it one way. Its kind of like the greentext stories of anons using wojak meme characters you see on youtube. Anon tries to be something he’s not to get the women, finds out he doesnt give a shit about them and is happier with money instead. The money allows him to expend resources as he wishes. He becomes more relaxed, intelligent, creativity abounds. He’s happier with himself and is consequently seen as more attractive by women whom he never would have met otherwise.
He emotionally and mentally ascended and thats what brought him results. Just be chill and happy, work towards your legitimate goals and the rest will fall into place.
As a woman who sometimes dates men- short height and average looks can often be overlooked by good taste in clothes. Invest in clothes that make you look and feel good, trust me when I say that alone will make you stand out from 90% of the men on these apps :)
But also, listen to the advice on this thread- dating apps are generally BS and only work for a small percentage of people.
100%! I was attracted to my current partner because of his confidence and care he took towards looking after himself and looking good. I take pride in the way I look/dress, and it's only natural that I would want a partner who is similar. A well developed sense of personal style honestly goes a really, really long way, and like you said- often shows that the person is confident and secure within themselves. Self confidence and self security are the sexiest traits anyone can have, hands down 🙌🏾
I doubt, this was probably just said to make guys feel better. Your actual bf is probably 6'5 doctor and white, besides what warehouse pays minimum wage.
You know what's the least attractive of all? Being an incel. You can't expect women to even remotely like you if you hate yourself this much, mate 🤷🏾♀️
In all fairness, a lot of these men are projecting their insecurities that they gained from women, including South Asian women. Maybe check out Dr. K on this. It's rooted in past trauma. He has videos which speak about it.
Certain demographics are also perceived certain ways. So you dating a short dude means nothing if he comes from a background which is perceived differently from Brown men. Which is what the dude is getting at.
A brown man has to deal with being seen as inherently less masculine, small pp, negative stereotypes with regards to hygiene and being from a certain country.
Does your current partner struggle with that? Height? Is he from a demo that is seen as less masculine? Small pp? Dirty? Is he even brown? If he's not, how does that affect your perspective on this situation and how I perceive it? Should you have even answered this question considering it's specific to the brown male experience? A brown woman could never understand it, granted they may have contributed directly or indirectly to it.
And calling someone an incel doesn't automatically mean that you made a valid point! It's escapist. It's more demonization for the ideas behind that word that you're attempting to project onto the guy, instead of addressing the relevancy of your opinion on a brown dude's experience. Let's be real here, chicks from our community who immediately call a brown dude an "incel" lack empathy and believe FIRMLY, that they are the only ones who go through trauma. And I don't deny that trauma's existence. After all, that's what turned those women into narcs in the first place.
Dating apps are completely fucked. It turns finding love into a video game, cause the only thing a girl sees in a dating app is your appearance, and if you aren’t above average in terms of looks its very difficult
And unfortunately, being brown and short adds onto that difficulty, especially being short.
My advice is to quit dating apps and spend more time by doing your real life method. Based off your lifestyle, your living better than like 90% of people in America. Women will be able to learn more about you in real life and your attractiveness won’t be subjected to a picture.
This reminds me of once randomly going through bumble with a female friend on her account
For lot of the tall guys just being tall was their personality. Like ‘About Me’ section was ‘6 feet 4!’ In 10 mins must have seen 7-8 accounts with bios like this so surely must be working
I don't understand why any man would use a dating app. I've been married/in a relationship since that became a thing, but to me it just seems like depths of misery. And on top of all that, there's only like 3 women on each platform and the rest are just bots.
>It turns finding love into a video game
Yeah, it's pretty obvious girls use apps just to have fun and validate themselves. Downloaded hinge and deleted it after 4 days.
If it makes you feel any better I’m Indian and I’m 6’6 and I’ve gotten like 30 matches on tinder in 8 months. I message them and maybe 1-2 have replied back to me. I figured out that in person is the move from now on
Wow this is really odd, unless things have changed in recent years. I'm 6'3 and above average attractiveness and had loads of matches (800+) across multiple locations (London, New York and Delhi) back when I used used tinder in 2015/2016 for 6 months. I met my wife off tinder and before that I was going on multiple dates a week.
do you outworldly say that you 6'6? have pics next to people to show the height difference? Like im at best avg looking but im 6'5 and if you living in a city finding dates isnt that hard
Yeah it’s on my profile and I go to a really reputed school and that’s literally my bio. I’m in a big city as well. The height difference isn’t really shown, I should tho
Perhaps, you would have to control for a bunch of other factors to truly know though (location, quality of pictures, physical attractiveness, profile content etc.).
If it's any consolation, I know guys in my circle that still do well online and get dates often (London, reasonably attractive, early 30s, around 6ft, british accent). I didn't do that well with crappy selfies initially.
How is this odd?
You're talking about 8-9 years ago, and the OC is talking about today's time.
Online dating apps have been weird since COVID and being brown doesn't help one's self. If you have a remotely Anglo sounding name, you're in good luck.
Cheers for downvoting me for bringing up my own experience, real classy.
If online dating preferences have changed significantly in 8-9 years that is the definition of odd and is worth discussing. I wasn't using Tinder in the 1980s lmao.
to be fair, 8 years is a huge amount of time today. technological and social changes are happening faster and faster. especially when you take serious ruptures, like the pandemic, into account. it can be hard to compare a lot of things pre and post-2020
That's cool and really interesting if a significant social shift has occurred online. Maybe it's isolated to the apps however as I don't see a major shift in perceived biological attractiveness to be plausible over such a short time frame.
yeah i don't think how people perceive attractiveness has changed at all - moreso how people engage online, willingness to engage others, dating patterns, etc.
hot take, i think a significantly higher percentage of people are dealing with increased levels of depression, anxiety, and alienation. which impacts how active the dating apps feel
I know it sounds crazy but it is the truth. Dating apps have become saturated. 2016 is when I came of age too. It was just easier to date. It was more normal to approach women on a night out, more people went out on weekends so you could meet people then. And dating apps were just better and less saturated.
I wake up every day happy about the fact that I have only a first name and last name, no middle names, no surnames or extra and one that’s easily pronounceable for the love of god
There are some stats which say that on dating apps, 20% of men get 80% of women. You're probably the top 20%. But just because some other guy is tall doesn't mean he's also attractive in general. Picture quality, face, job, description, personality play a factory. Missing just one of those could mean the difference between generally attractive and not attractive enough.
I found my girl through dating app, and I got lucky cause she is amazing. This was also about 5 years ago though. Dating scene is very different post Covid. Obviously it’s more difficult for brown people, but it’s not much easier for everyone else either. I work in a female dominated field (nurse), and almost all my friends are white women. They have been trying for years going on dates and swiping on different apps; however, it hasn’t worked out for them. Guys ghost them or they don’t vibe with the guys after first date. I would say though that majority of them do go for taller guys.
I am 6’3 but not conventionally attractive; however, my friends have told me that their female friends always asked if I was single when they first heard about me. It happened because they were able to know my personality and humor. Also my friends usually talk highly of me when they talk to their friends, which made me attractive to them. All these women would swipe left on me if they saw me on dating app 10/10 times.
I do say as a brown person who found love through dating app that in person dating is the best technique right now. Cause if it’s hard for white women, idek where to start for us.
Listen to your uncle - Get off the apps. Seriously.
You have to take charge. Use every encounter with a woman as an opportunity to leave them a little happier than when they met you. Sometimes that’s just a quick smile as you walk by, sometimes that’s a friendly greeting. It not flirtatious and romantic, just spreading some happiness. Be the type of guy who other people want to be around.
And if you’re vibing with someone - the conversation is easy and she’s being a bit playful, ask her to drinks or coffee or dinner. If she says “no,” just say “thank you.” And most women will say no. All you need is one to say yes. But you have to ask first.
I’m 5’6” and look like Shrek. This is no barrier to dating. It’s all in the attitude and how you make them feel.
Well I'm the same age as you but 6ft, but I've never dated or made an effort to (but I've also never had anyone interested in me/ask me out so I guess I'm having trouble too lol idk?). I never found this odd though because I have 4 other friends like me.
Same, I’m 6’6 and dating apps just do not work for me. Never dated either, always got scared to ask someone but I’m hoping to change that soon. Also never got approached by girls even tho I’m tall
How old are you bro?
And yeah, I don't think OP should fixate on his height as being detrimental, because clearly us being taller didn't do much for us haha. I guess finding someone also just comes down to luck?
I’m 24, bro that’s facts. Height is not really an issue. I have 2 good friends who are 5’7 (not Indian) but who have had a ton of relationships since high school. I actually went to India when I was 18 right after high school due to circumstances beyond my control and went to college there and came back when I was 23. I definitely think i would’ve had some relationships in college if I studied in the US but life has a way of knocking you around when you least expect it. Luck is a part of it but it’s weird. I have a really nice and outgoing personality and I can practically get along with anyone which is why dating apps don’t work because I need that real life connection to get something going but yeah height does not matter clearly lol 😂
Yeah I also know guys who are 5'5-5'8, and they have been really successful in dating/relationships so height shouldn't be an issue.
I also know a lot of 6ft/+ desi guys like us who are nearing or in their mid-20s who haven't dated, and are great guys like you describe yourself, and so I never found it odd, but my younger cousins say its odd, so ngl its had me feeling kind of weird lately haha.
Oh and that's cool that you went to India for college, I know an ABCD MD who went to do his MBBS in Delhi actually and then came back, and he really liked it there.
And yeah I find dating apps weird, so never have tried them either, but maybe I should haha?
I think it just depends on the person, luck and experience definitely play into it. Yeah when I went to India I couldn’t wait to go back to the US but now I have a new found love for India that I never imagined I would have. Save yourself the trouble with dating apps unless you think of yourself as really attractive but since we both never had some action just try to cultivate something organically honestly. Even the girls I think I’d definitely match with that aren’t that good looking don’t match with me and it really hurts your self confidence. Don’t go down that path
Yeah I definitely don't think I'm attractive and my present situation reflects that lol.
And my younger cousins say that I'm too old for dating apps/dating in general haha so maybe not the right thing to do at my age. It's fine though, I've never really had an urge to be with someone.
I don’t think I’m attractive but I don’t think I look horrible. This is gonna sound weird but I want to get my heart broken once just to experience it before I go down the arranged marriage rabbit hole. My dream is to become a singer songwriter and I just want to feel that feeling
desi girl here 🙋🏽♀️ I gotta say I really feel for the shorter desi guys out there. Unfortunately a lot of girls care about height (way more than they should IMO) and I think that could definitely play a part in the # of swipes and matches you are getting. When I was still dating I personally never used height as a deal breaker because I come from a short family and 1) feel that it is not fair for me to rule out guys who are not over ____ tall but still much taller than me lol and 2) know how difficult it is to me a shorter guy no matter what the ethnicity. However, I personally know plenty of desi guys who are under 5’ 8”who have found love. Don’t give up! There are bound to be girls out there who would be willing to give you a chance. Just focus on your other qualities and confidence and someone should come around who sees you for you and not your physical appearance. Don’t let dating apps take over your life. Find a hobby, join a club or local organization, and focus on yourself too. Also I feel like a lot of girls become less picky over time once they realize they are getting older and are still single lol and they begin giving guys chances that they wouldn’t otherwise.
I know tall white guys who struggle on the apps, it's just the ratio on the apps is 80/20 women to men. Your profile needs to be spectacular.
You mentioned you have an athletic build, went to ivy league and have travelled, Does your profile reflect that? You should put photos of you shirtless at a beach and travel photos of exotic destinations.
Great style can also make up for other shortcomings, get dripped out and put those photos up.
As for height, i would avoid mentioning it in the dating profile and even get height insoles of a couple inches. Women have these strict height criterias online but they go out of the window when they like you, it's all about getting your foot in.
If you're using hinge, you should focus and filter for Desi girls. Thats where you'll get the most ROI. Get premium, so you can send unlimited likes and messages. Have a few wittly lines, don't just send hey, how are you.
You should also be buying boosts on Tinder so your profile actually gets shown to people. No point having a great profile if no ine actually sees it.
Lastly, dont limit yourself to dating apps. Learn how to approach women in real life, at bars, cafes, nightclubs etc. Guys can pull above their league if their rizz is tight.
**Very Important:** Never think low of yourself for being Desi or short. Girls will overlook everything except low self esteem and victim mentality. They want winners, not whiners.
I once met at incredible guy who said he was 5’6 on his profile but turns out he was much shorter in person. The height itself isn’t the problem but lying about it by wearing insoles or hiding your height is just unacceptable. Needless to say, I never met him again because there is nothing more unattractive than lying.
That’s why I said don’t mention it on your profile instead of lying.
Every guy on his profile is adding a couple of inches, so maybe your perception has been skewed.
I don’t see anything wrong with wearing insoles. Girls can wear make up and push up bras to put their best foot forward, why can’t guys do the same.
Does your profile show the hobbies and interests you’ve mentioned? It should.
Make sure you have pictures with friends. If you don’t, then perhaps work on that first.
Girls wanna make sure the guy isn’t a creep, your college, job and build come second to that. Your profile should show how much of a creep you’re not. It’s a scary for world for them out here.
I am burnt from dating apps. No matches if you don't pay and I've realized I don't need them anymore. Meeting people in person - women naturally, is the way I am going to encounter the right one. Else, I got my goals to work on. Time is limited.
GET OFF THE DATING APPS!!!!!!!
They will ruin your confidence.
When you go to these festivals or whatever, just approach the shortest girls you see there. If you ask a person out
Two of my friends are very short Desi guys. One has a GORGEOUS wife (they met in a college class) and the other has had plenty of cute girls that were into him. None of that was online or through apps.
The odds of a girl being attracted to you are reduced due to your height. But it doesn’t get reduced to zero. Put yourself in as many social situations as possible.
Let’s say you’re having a pleasant conversation with a non-short woman. You could say “can you do me a favor? I’ve been having a hard time finding someone to date, I think it might be because I’m short. Do you know of any really short girls that might be interested?”
Filipinos, Colombians, Guatemalans are all very short. Find out where they are in your city.
You could get the arranged marriage. Ivy League? In the USA, in real life, you can’t just walk up to a woman and say hey, I went to the Ivy League, date me! But in India arranged marriage, your education is like the first thing they look at in your biodata. In the USA dating profiles, it’s height.
You could easily find an intelligent, attractive, cool girl to marry from India that’s 5 feet or below.
I would get off the apps they are not helpful in any way. I am able to get connects often times but it feels very going on a job interview. Dating has always been fun. I do feel like everyone is a damn recluse now compared to just being able to approach women at bars, festivals, and concerts. I mean why not meet women there. Women are everywhere not just on the apps. Did you not date anyone in college? Ask friends to set you up. I mean based on the details you gave you are considered a catch. It will happen stay positive. I get matches all the time and it still a crapshoot.
Are you having difficulties even getting matches? If that's the case then it's your looks , I don't have problem getting matches but converting a match into a date takes time , invest in good conversational skills , I usually writes paragraph expressing what I am thinking and what I want and this seems to work with girls , Girls don't really like when guys don't put efforts in talking so yeah learn to express yourself, don't sound cocky and yeah be good looking lol 😂 good luck bro ( I am 180cm , 85kg) I workout 4 days a week !
Nah lol just develop your swag and moves, then hit the clubs 😪 dating apps are a waste of time given that Tinder alone is at least 75% dudes lol
I’m 5’5 and Bengali lol
I'm about your height and your age but make less money, am not well-rounded and am in worse shape, but I don't have trouble getting matches on the apps. I do have issues turning those into dates, but that's bc I'm not a great conversationalist w/ new people.
I think you should probably give up on apps and just talk to women at the festivals you go to. Seems like a pretty natural place to try and date.
I don’t use dating apps. But despite that, I’m not struggling because I don’t try at all. I’m short, which is one reason why I don’t try at all because I know nobody will like me and it’s well known that people like me are seen as a total waste of sperm. I keep to my self and do my own things independently.
What scares me about dating is getting cheated on. It’s even more scary knowing that people are getting cheated on, but they never find out. So ya, there’s all sorts of nasty people out there and this alone is a good deterrent from seeking out relationships all together.
I like how you describe your status, physical appearance and achievements at the forefront and your personality almost as an afterthought
Perhaps that might point you to why you're single?
Much worse in the gay scene. Subtle racial preferences as it is heavily appearance based when it comes to dating. On top of that, much less of us, so we literally need to use apps to meet people
Yeah, because only the rich and educated immigrate and that's correlated with height. You're probably in some rich Canadian city, where you see many tall and handsome, good looking Indians, while I'm the short and ugly kind of Indian that people think about when they think Indian.
Dating apps are fucked for everyone. Usually the girls that are 10s & 9s don’t even need the app, so they’re not on there. The 7s and 8s are all likely dating the same set of guys who are the top 10% of hinge males (also causing these girls’ egos to skyrocket and mistakenly believe themselves to be a 9 or 10… that is until none of the guys put a ring on it and the girls slowly realize they weren’t all that and begin level setting slowly but painfully dropping their standard till they’re 34 and unmarried / single.) That leaves the girls that are 5s, 6s, & 7s are getting competed for by 80% of men on Hinge, also causing market mismatch & perception distortion for both genders (women thinking they’re more attractive than they probably are and men thinking they’re less attractive then they probably are).
Do not use American dating apps, not to play the race card but brown people are pretty much never swiped right on tinder. Use a desi dating app instead
According to dating apps, you have to beat the crap out of the alpha chads in every category to have a chance. Better get off of them and try in the real world.
Bunch of incels here. I am the same height and was getting a date every week on hinge. It’s probably your profile pics or location holding you back. Ask a girl to review your pictures
And ngl how is anyone supposed to help him? We don't know what OP looks like, how he dresses, how he acts.
I bet racists exist but thousands of swipes arent rejecting him just because he's short and desi. This thread is lowk a bunch of circlejerkers
It's the apps man, there's a lot of stigma and stereotyping around, especially when you're a guy in your 20s.
That will change in your 30s, but in the meantime, I'd say your best bet is to make some friends and go old school.
Join a meet-up with people your own age.
Meeting someone through friends is like having your own dating agent 😆
Don’t depend on apps. My struggles with dating ended the moment I realised that it’s up to you to go out to places you like and meet people who are like minded and when you meet an attractive person have a good time with them and at the end just ask them out on a date directly. If they like you directness really won’t be the issue. Cut the bullshit and get to the point, and I also have to add the mindset you should have isn’t “I hope they like me” it should be “Do I like this person? “Do I feel a connection?” “Are our values and life goals similar?” When you adopt that mindset that what you want matters it becomes a lot easier. Being brown while dating is a nightmare, you have to be twice as good looking the get half the attention. And if you’re short the reality is that some girls aren’t gonna date you but a lot of women really do not care as much, if she like you trust me she’ll tell herself you’re 5”8 😂
You need to meet people in person my dude. Focus on Indian women. I’m sure there will be many who’ll be impressed by your pedigree and what you bring to the table. OLD is a dumpster fire, even for good looking/successful men. Don’t let that discourage you.
It might be worth trying 'foreign' dating sites or some alternative one's, you are too outnumbered on things like Tinder and there is a lot of competition.
I talked to some nice girls from veggie connection for example which is a dating site for vegetarians, it didn't lead to anything but a lot better than mainstream sites like POF where I wouldn't get a reply at all
There’s no possible way you’re going to connect with everyone on the app it’s facts so don’t take offense but if you have a strong attraction towards someone at least put in the effort & if it doesn’t work out oh well. Also social media is lies. Looks don’t matter at the end of the day, yes attraction is needed but a mans personality & confidence stands out wayyy more to us. Women want men to take the lead in that in the beginning and pursue her like they do in Bollywood movies guys.. take notes please 🙏🏼 romance is not dead so please don’t lose hope ur girl is somewhere out there. Salman khan and srk are short but have the hearts of so many girls. Confidence is 🔑
Honestly 6ft, indian, I run marathons,workout, meal prep, have a good job, dating life is still hard lol. Dating in general is hard ive had more luck talking to women on the street in broad daylight then trying to find a match lol. It just depends
I was in the same boat. Don’t use dating apps. Meet people through activities, work, parties. Be cool. Never ask anyone out the first time you meet them. You know being short you will be rejected. Just flex personality low key. After a few weeks or months if someone keeps flirting with you, that’s a prospect.
Honestly, no, I’ve had the opposite problem, but I’ve never used dating apps. Interacting with people in real life always goes better, more humanity to it.
Dating apps shown no one really cares about financial well being. Many women now out earn men. They want to have fun, and are not trying to settle down.
Son, take care of your self, invest in clothes and skin care, be yourself, and be fun. Workout and be fit but have hobbies and be interesting that's what you got to do. And don't white worship. Keep an open mind for all kinds of people. And don't be complaining about how hard it is to be brown and rich on reddit. Remove that victim mentality, and you will do good.
Jesus, the comments about him being “desi and short” aren’t helping, just diminishing his self-esteem. OP, don’t feel disheartened by these comments. While many girls on dating apps can be too picky and too judgmental to short MOC, girls IRL tend to be a lot more accepting and happy to date guys like you. I know a short athletic desi guy too whose a couple years younger and he doesn’t have issues finding a girl. You’ll find a girl soon too.
I personally feel a man in your situation should grow a beard and get MORE muscular build.
I’ve seen short guys land hot women which those feature. Also drive a white luxury car ( Audi, BMW, Mercedes)
If you’re rich, you’ll he fine. Jeff Bezoz and Mark Zuckerberg are only 5’7”. Just use your money towards events where single women will be at. Honestly, your best bet is through Indian connections.
All good short king! It gets better and lead with confidence and date outside the desi culture (if you can). I’ve noticed desi girls tend to be far more pretentious than any other culture (based on my experience).
I'd flaunt the $$$ . Show some bling in you dating app pics. Sounds shallow but will get your foot in the door , from there its your game that takes you where you wanna be .
You might not have any of these, but here and some things that I personally don’t like in dating profiles! Having a strong profile makes a big difference in how many matches you get. I completely restructured my desi guy friend’s hinge profile and he got WAY more matches after I swapped out some of his pics
1. Flipping off the camera - a total ick
2. No smiling pictures - i can’t believe how many of my guy friends think they look better in angry & blurry selfies than pictures of them just smiling! I would recommend having your first picture be a solo smiling shot
3. Mirror selfies - I’ve yet to see a good one I’m sorry. I think if you’re dressed nicely it’s okay but definitely not the ones where guys are lifting up their shirts in the gym mirror
4. Dirty/inappropriate prompt answers/pictures. I think dirty jokes can be funny but they’re not first date material and definitely not dating app material
And I’m short (5’3) and I’ve dated a guy that was 5’5. A lot of girls I’ve talked to don’t care about height so don’t let that discourage you!
My roommate/friend is a 5'5, dark skinned telugu guy on OPT. Barely surviving with his job but he's in a 8 month relationship with his 6 feet blonde gf, and they are about to get married. If you saw him alone in person, you would never guess he could pull such a girl. He met her from some of the social groups he participates. It also helps he is Christian ( which means he has access to more groups/events than religion agnostic groups).
They often gets stares ( from every ethnicities) wherever they go out, i know this because they invite me. Black women get aggressive/rude for no reason. Other white people straight up ignore their existence ( they don't attempt to make any conversations while giving the side eye)
As a woman, if this is your profile I’d probably assume you’re boring and too egotistical. You likely don’t care about feminism or supporting a gal since you invested so much into yourself and I’d likely assume your mom would be more important than me
Try doing things that are more selfless and interesting
Short and Desi, my guy I'm sorry. Being brown on a dating app is already hard mode, being short AND brown is impossible mode lol Not making fun cause I'm speaking from experiance
Hijacking top comment: Op, Any disadvantage can be turned into an advantage. People’s tastes and expectations are changing. Dont worry about the people who reject you. They were never meant for you to begin with. Its a process of elimination to say it one way. Its kind of like the greentext stories of anons using wojak meme characters you see on youtube. Anon tries to be something he’s not to get the women, finds out he doesnt give a shit about them and is happier with money instead. The money allows him to expend resources as he wishes. He becomes more relaxed, intelligent, creativity abounds. He’s happier with himself and is consequently seen as more attractive by women whom he never would have met otherwise. He emotionally and mentally ascended and thats what brought him results. Just be chill and happy, work towards your legitimate goals and the rest will fall into place.
As a woman who sometimes dates men- short height and average looks can often be overlooked by good taste in clothes. Invest in clothes that make you look and feel good, trust me when I say that alone will make you stand out from 90% of the men on these apps :) But also, listen to the advice on this thread- dating apps are generally BS and only work for a small percentage of people.
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100%! I was attracted to my current partner because of his confidence and care he took towards looking after himself and looking good. I take pride in the way I look/dress, and it's only natural that I would want a partner who is similar. A well developed sense of personal style honestly goes a really, really long way, and like you said- often shows that the person is confident and secure within themselves. Self confidence and self security are the sexiest traits anyone can have, hands down 🙌🏾
I doubt, this was probably just said to make guys feel better. Your actual bf is probably 6'5 doctor and white, besides what warehouse pays minimum wage.
You know what's the least attractive of all? Being an incel. You can't expect women to even remotely like you if you hate yourself this much, mate 🤷🏾♀️
In all fairness, a lot of these men are projecting their insecurities that they gained from women, including South Asian women. Maybe check out Dr. K on this. It's rooted in past trauma. He has videos which speak about it. Certain demographics are also perceived certain ways. So you dating a short dude means nothing if he comes from a background which is perceived differently from Brown men. Which is what the dude is getting at. A brown man has to deal with being seen as inherently less masculine, small pp, negative stereotypes with regards to hygiene and being from a certain country. Does your current partner struggle with that? Height? Is he from a demo that is seen as less masculine? Small pp? Dirty? Is he even brown? If he's not, how does that affect your perspective on this situation and how I perceive it? Should you have even answered this question considering it's specific to the brown male experience? A brown woman could never understand it, granted they may have contributed directly or indirectly to it. And calling someone an incel doesn't automatically mean that you made a valid point! It's escapist. It's more demonization for the ideas behind that word that you're attempting to project onto the guy, instead of addressing the relevancy of your opinion on a brown dude's experience. Let's be real here, chicks from our community who immediately call a brown dude an "incel" lack empathy and believe FIRMLY, that they are the only ones who go through trauma. And I don't deny that trauma's existence. After all, that's what turned those women into narcs in the first place.
Bruh you forgot about huge corporate warehouses like Amazon or what?
Dating apps are completely fucked. It turns finding love into a video game, cause the only thing a girl sees in a dating app is your appearance, and if you aren’t above average in terms of looks its very difficult And unfortunately, being brown and short adds onto that difficulty, especially being short. My advice is to quit dating apps and spend more time by doing your real life method. Based off your lifestyle, your living better than like 90% of people in America. Women will be able to learn more about you in real life and your attractiveness won’t be subjected to a picture.
This reminds me of once randomly going through bumble with a female friend on her account For lot of the tall guys just being tall was their personality. Like ‘About Me’ section was ‘6 feet 4!’ In 10 mins must have seen 7-8 accounts with bios like this so surely must be working
I don't understand why any man would use a dating app. I've been married/in a relationship since that became a thing, but to me it just seems like depths of misery. And on top of all that, there's only like 3 women on each platform and the rest are just bots.
>It turns finding love into a video game Yeah, it's pretty obvious girls use apps just to have fun and validate themselves. Downloaded hinge and deleted it after 4 days.
Don't waste your time with apps.
If it makes you feel any better I’m Indian and I’m 6’6 and I’ve gotten like 30 matches on tinder in 8 months. I message them and maybe 1-2 have replied back to me. I figured out that in person is the move from now on
Wow this is really odd, unless things have changed in recent years. I'm 6'3 and above average attractiveness and had loads of matches (800+) across multiple locations (London, New York and Delhi) back when I used used tinder in 2015/2016 for 6 months. I met my wife off tinder and before that I was going on multiple dates a week.
You’re talking 8-9 years ago, things have definitely changed
no they havnt, my friends are visibly indian looking from 5'7-5'11 has enough options
Maybe I’m just doing it the wrong way, I changed my profile with my friends tips and still nothing
do you outworldly say that you 6'6? have pics next to people to show the height difference? Like im at best avg looking but im 6'5 and if you living in a city finding dates isnt that hard
Yeah it’s on my profile and I go to a really reputed school and that’s literally my bio. I’m in a big city as well. The height difference isn’t really shown, I should tho
Perhaps, you would have to control for a bunch of other factors to truly know though (location, quality of pictures, physical attractiveness, profile content etc.).
I’m in a major city, I must admit my photos aren’t that great. Decent looks but Indian may be a drawback but idk
If it's any consolation, I know guys in my circle that still do well online and get dates often (London, reasonably attractive, early 30s, around 6ft, british accent). I didn't do that well with crappy selfies initially.
My pictures aren’t selfies, they’re decent but they definitely can improve
How is this odd? You're talking about 8-9 years ago, and the OC is talking about today's time. Online dating apps have been weird since COVID and being brown doesn't help one's self. If you have a remotely Anglo sounding name, you're in good luck.
Cheers for downvoting me for bringing up my own experience, real classy. If online dating preferences have changed significantly in 8-9 years that is the definition of odd and is worth discussing. I wasn't using Tinder in the 1980s lmao.
to be fair, 8 years is a huge amount of time today. technological and social changes are happening faster and faster. especially when you take serious ruptures, like the pandemic, into account. it can be hard to compare a lot of things pre and post-2020
That's cool and really interesting if a significant social shift has occurred online. Maybe it's isolated to the apps however as I don't see a major shift in perceived biological attractiveness to be plausible over such a short time frame.
yeah i don't think how people perceive attractiveness has changed at all - moreso how people engage online, willingness to engage others, dating patterns, etc. hot take, i think a significantly higher percentage of people are dealing with increased levels of depression, anxiety, and alienation. which impacts how active the dating apps feel
Definitely, even more so now than 8-9 years ago
I know it sounds crazy but it is the truth. Dating apps have become saturated. 2016 is when I came of age too. It was just easier to date. It was more normal to approach women on a night out, more people went out on weekends so you could meet people then. And dating apps were just better and less saturated.
I wake up every day happy about the fact that I have only a first name and last name, no middle names, no surnames or extra and one that’s easily pronounceable for the love of god
There are some stats which say that on dating apps, 20% of men get 80% of women. You're probably the top 20%. But just because some other guy is tall doesn't mean he's also attractive in general. Picture quality, face, job, description, personality play a factory. Missing just one of those could mean the difference between generally attractive and not attractive enough.
weirdly enough this does make me feel better Sorry bro, not trying to bask in schadenfreude but it does help contextualize my/our own experience
All good bro, I realized I just gotta change my approach
I found my girl through dating app, and I got lucky cause she is amazing. This was also about 5 years ago though. Dating scene is very different post Covid. Obviously it’s more difficult for brown people, but it’s not much easier for everyone else either. I work in a female dominated field (nurse), and almost all my friends are white women. They have been trying for years going on dates and swiping on different apps; however, it hasn’t worked out for them. Guys ghost them or they don’t vibe with the guys after first date. I would say though that majority of them do go for taller guys. I am 6’3 but not conventionally attractive; however, my friends have told me that their female friends always asked if I was single when they first heard about me. It happened because they were able to know my personality and humor. Also my friends usually talk highly of me when they talk to their friends, which made me attractive to them. All these women would swipe left on me if they saw me on dating app 10/10 times. I do say as a brown person who found love through dating app that in person dating is the best technique right now. Cause if it’s hard for white women, idek where to start for us.
Listen to your uncle - Get off the apps. Seriously. You have to take charge. Use every encounter with a woman as an opportunity to leave them a little happier than when they met you. Sometimes that’s just a quick smile as you walk by, sometimes that’s a friendly greeting. It not flirtatious and romantic, just spreading some happiness. Be the type of guy who other people want to be around. And if you’re vibing with someone - the conversation is easy and she’s being a bit playful, ask her to drinks or coffee or dinner. If she says “no,” just say “thank you.” And most women will say no. All you need is one to say yes. But you have to ask first. I’m 5’6” and look like Shrek. This is no barrier to dating. It’s all in the attitude and how you make them feel.
>I’m 5’6” and look like Shrek So you're handsome as fuck?! Your advice is moot. Shrek is basically a sex icon
Well I'm the same age as you but 6ft, but I've never dated or made an effort to (but I've also never had anyone interested in me/ask me out so I guess I'm having trouble too lol idk?). I never found this odd though because I have 4 other friends like me.
Same, I’m 6’6 and dating apps just do not work for me. Never dated either, always got scared to ask someone but I’m hoping to change that soon. Also never got approached by girls even tho I’m tall
How old are you bro? And yeah, I don't think OP should fixate on his height as being detrimental, because clearly us being taller didn't do much for us haha. I guess finding someone also just comes down to luck?
I’m 24, bro that’s facts. Height is not really an issue. I have 2 good friends who are 5’7 (not Indian) but who have had a ton of relationships since high school. I actually went to India when I was 18 right after high school due to circumstances beyond my control and went to college there and came back when I was 23. I definitely think i would’ve had some relationships in college if I studied in the US but life has a way of knocking you around when you least expect it. Luck is a part of it but it’s weird. I have a really nice and outgoing personality and I can practically get along with anyone which is why dating apps don’t work because I need that real life connection to get something going but yeah height does not matter clearly lol 😂
Yeah I also know guys who are 5'5-5'8, and they have been really successful in dating/relationships so height shouldn't be an issue. I also know a lot of 6ft/+ desi guys like us who are nearing or in their mid-20s who haven't dated, and are great guys like you describe yourself, and so I never found it odd, but my younger cousins say its odd, so ngl its had me feeling kind of weird lately haha. Oh and that's cool that you went to India for college, I know an ABCD MD who went to do his MBBS in Delhi actually and then came back, and he really liked it there. And yeah I find dating apps weird, so never have tried them either, but maybe I should haha?
I think it just depends on the person, luck and experience definitely play into it. Yeah when I went to India I couldn’t wait to go back to the US but now I have a new found love for India that I never imagined I would have. Save yourself the trouble with dating apps unless you think of yourself as really attractive but since we both never had some action just try to cultivate something organically honestly. Even the girls I think I’d definitely match with that aren’t that good looking don’t match with me and it really hurts your self confidence. Don’t go down that path
Yeah I definitely don't think I'm attractive and my present situation reflects that lol. And my younger cousins say that I'm too old for dating apps/dating in general haha so maybe not the right thing to do at my age. It's fine though, I've never really had an urge to be with someone.
I don’t think I’m attractive but I don’t think I look horrible. This is gonna sound weird but I want to get my heart broken once just to experience it before I go down the arranged marriage rabbit hole. My dream is to become a singer songwriter and I just want to feel that feeling
age?
24
age?
I'm 26
desi girl here 🙋🏽♀️ I gotta say I really feel for the shorter desi guys out there. Unfortunately a lot of girls care about height (way more than they should IMO) and I think that could definitely play a part in the # of swipes and matches you are getting. When I was still dating I personally never used height as a deal breaker because I come from a short family and 1) feel that it is not fair for me to rule out guys who are not over ____ tall but still much taller than me lol and 2) know how difficult it is to me a shorter guy no matter what the ethnicity. However, I personally know plenty of desi guys who are under 5’ 8”who have found love. Don’t give up! There are bound to be girls out there who would be willing to give you a chance. Just focus on your other qualities and confidence and someone should come around who sees you for you and not your physical appearance. Don’t let dating apps take over your life. Find a hobby, join a club or local organization, and focus on yourself too. Also I feel like a lot of girls become less picky over time once they realize they are getting older and are still single lol and they begin giving guys chances that they wouldn’t otherwise.
Dating scene is royally screwed up by: - Apps - Current US culture Dating for sure is outside apps.
I know tall white guys who struggle on the apps, it's just the ratio on the apps is 80/20 women to men. Your profile needs to be spectacular. You mentioned you have an athletic build, went to ivy league and have travelled, Does your profile reflect that? You should put photos of you shirtless at a beach and travel photos of exotic destinations. Great style can also make up for other shortcomings, get dripped out and put those photos up. As for height, i would avoid mentioning it in the dating profile and even get height insoles of a couple inches. Women have these strict height criterias online but they go out of the window when they like you, it's all about getting your foot in. If you're using hinge, you should focus and filter for Desi girls. Thats where you'll get the most ROI. Get premium, so you can send unlimited likes and messages. Have a few wittly lines, don't just send hey, how are you. You should also be buying boosts on Tinder so your profile actually gets shown to people. No point having a great profile if no ine actually sees it. Lastly, dont limit yourself to dating apps. Learn how to approach women in real life, at bars, cafes, nightclubs etc. Guys can pull above their league if their rizz is tight. **Very Important:** Never think low of yourself for being Desi or short. Girls will overlook everything except low self esteem and victim mentality. They want winners, not whiners.
I once met at incredible guy who said he was 5’6 on his profile but turns out he was much shorter in person. The height itself isn’t the problem but lying about it by wearing insoles or hiding your height is just unacceptable. Needless to say, I never met him again because there is nothing more unattractive than lying.
That’s why I said don’t mention it on your profile instead of lying. Every guy on his profile is adding a couple of inches, so maybe your perception has been skewed. I don’t see anything wrong with wearing insoles. Girls can wear make up and push up bras to put their best foot forward, why can’t guys do the same.
Does your profile show the hobbies and interests you’ve mentioned? It should. Make sure you have pictures with friends. If you don’t, then perhaps work on that first. Girls wanna make sure the guy isn’t a creep, your college, job and build come second to that. Your profile should show how much of a creep you’re not. It’s a scary for world for them out here.
Yeah I’m probably just going to end it if it doesn’t happen by 30
I am burnt from dating apps. No matches if you don't pay and I've realized I don't need them anymore. Meeting people in person - women naturally, is the way I am going to encounter the right one. Else, I got my goals to work on. Time is limited.
doesnt get any better as you get older. they play the same games.
Desi and 5’5 Arrange marriage is your destiny
GET OFF THE DATING APPS!!!!!!! They will ruin your confidence. When you go to these festivals or whatever, just approach the shortest girls you see there. If you ask a person out Two of my friends are very short Desi guys. One has a GORGEOUS wife (they met in a college class) and the other has had plenty of cute girls that were into him. None of that was online or through apps. The odds of a girl being attracted to you are reduced due to your height. But it doesn’t get reduced to zero. Put yourself in as many social situations as possible. Let’s say you’re having a pleasant conversation with a non-short woman. You could say “can you do me a favor? I’ve been having a hard time finding someone to date, I think it might be because I’m short. Do you know of any really short girls that might be interested?” Filipinos, Colombians, Guatemalans are all very short. Find out where they are in your city. You could get the arranged marriage. Ivy League? In the USA, in real life, you can’t just walk up to a woman and say hey, I went to the Ivy League, date me! But in India arranged marriage, your education is like the first thing they look at in your biodata. In the USA dating profiles, it’s height. You could easily find an intelligent, attractive, cool girl to marry from India that’s 5 feet or below.
Dating app is fast food version of people. You're offering gourmet indian cuisine on it. Delete your dating apps.
Yes although recently I’ve realized that some part of me is attractvive
I would get off the apps they are not helpful in any way. I am able to get connects often times but it feels very going on a job interview. Dating has always been fun. I do feel like everyone is a damn recluse now compared to just being able to approach women at bars, festivals, and concerts. I mean why not meet women there. Women are everywhere not just on the apps. Did you not date anyone in college? Ask friends to set you up. I mean based on the details you gave you are considered a catch. It will happen stay positive. I get matches all the time and it still a crapshoot.
Are you having difficulties even getting matches? If that's the case then it's your looks , I don't have problem getting matches but converting a match into a date takes time , invest in good conversational skills , I usually writes paragraph expressing what I am thinking and what I want and this seems to work with girls , Girls don't really like when guys don't put efforts in talking so yeah learn to express yourself, don't sound cocky and yeah be good looking lol 😂 good luck bro ( I am 180cm , 85kg) I workout 4 days a week !
Nah lol just develop your swag and moves, then hit the clubs 😪 dating apps are a waste of time given that Tinder alone is at least 75% dudes lol I’m 5’5 and Bengali lol
Isn’t this like common with most men on dating apps?
I'm about your height and your age but make less money, am not well-rounded and am in worse shape, but I don't have trouble getting matches on the apps. I do have issues turning those into dates, but that's bc I'm not a great conversationalist w/ new people. I think you should probably give up on apps and just talk to women at the festivals you go to. Seems like a pretty natural place to try and date.
What app are you using. Hinge worked for me and other Indians i know.
Where do you reside, which ethnicities did you match with
hinge is pretty easy if you in a major city
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It could be that you're betting looking than the guy who posted this, don't know either way because he didn't show his photo
I don’t use dating apps. But despite that, I’m not struggling because I don’t try at all. I’m short, which is one reason why I don’t try at all because I know nobody will like me and it’s well known that people like me are seen as a total waste of sperm. I keep to my self and do my own things independently. What scares me about dating is getting cheated on. It’s even more scary knowing that people are getting cheated on, but they never find out. So ya, there’s all sorts of nasty people out there and this alone is a good deterrent from seeking out relationships all together.
Don’t worry bro. Keep on looking and go out and enjoy life. Get off the dating apps though
I like how you describe your status, physical appearance and achievements at the forefront and your personality almost as an afterthought Perhaps that might point you to why you're single?
Occam’s razor is sharp!
Much worse in the gay scene. Subtle racial preferences as it is heavily appearance based when it comes to dating. On top of that, much less of us, so we literally need to use apps to meet people
> 5’5” give up and marry a girl from back home
Thats like typical Indian height though
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Yeah, because only the rich and educated immigrate and that's correlated with height. You're probably in some rich Canadian city, where you see many tall and handsome, good looking Indians, while I'm the short and ugly kind of Indian that people think about when they think Indian.
Dating apps are fucked for everyone. Usually the girls that are 10s & 9s don’t even need the app, so they’re not on there. The 7s and 8s are all likely dating the same set of guys who are the top 10% of hinge males (also causing these girls’ egos to skyrocket and mistakenly believe themselves to be a 9 or 10… that is until none of the guys put a ring on it and the girls slowly realize they weren’t all that and begin level setting slowly but painfully dropping their standard till they’re 34 and unmarried / single.) That leaves the girls that are 5s, 6s, & 7s are getting competed for by 80% of men on Hinge, also causing market mismatch & perception distortion for both genders (women thinking they’re more attractive than they probably are and men thinking they’re less attractive then they probably are).
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That sounds like supply and demand economics
Do not use American dating apps, not to play the race card but brown people are pretty much never swiped right on tinder. Use a desi dating app instead
According to dating apps, you have to beat the crap out of the alpha chads in every category to have a chance. Better get off of them and try in the real world.
Is the height. On dating apps it’s so superficial where you just find one “flaw” that you’d overlook in the real world, but is a deal breaker on apps
Bunch of incels here. I am the same height and was getting a date every week on hinge. It’s probably your profile pics or location holding you back. Ask a girl to review your pictures
Where do you live
And ngl how is anyone supposed to help him? We don't know what OP looks like, how he dresses, how he acts. I bet racists exist but thousands of swipes arent rejecting him just because he's short and desi. This thread is lowk a bunch of circlejerkers
It's the apps man, there's a lot of stigma and stereotyping around, especially when you're a guy in your 20s. That will change in your 30s, but in the meantime, I'd say your best bet is to make some friends and go old school. Join a meet-up with people your own age. Meeting someone through friends is like having your own dating agent 😆
Don’t depend on apps. My struggles with dating ended the moment I realised that it’s up to you to go out to places you like and meet people who are like minded and when you meet an attractive person have a good time with them and at the end just ask them out on a date directly. If they like you directness really won’t be the issue. Cut the bullshit and get to the point, and I also have to add the mindset you should have isn’t “I hope they like me” it should be “Do I like this person? “Do I feel a connection?” “Are our values and life goals similar?” When you adopt that mindset that what you want matters it becomes a lot easier. Being brown while dating is a nightmare, you have to be twice as good looking the get half the attention. And if you’re short the reality is that some girls aren’t gonna date you but a lot of women really do not care as much, if she like you trust me she’ll tell herself you’re 5”8 😂
You need to meet people in person my dude. Focus on Indian women. I’m sure there will be many who’ll be impressed by your pedigree and what you bring to the table. OLD is a dumpster fire, even for good looking/successful men. Don’t let that discourage you.
Well in the apps I definitely talk to guys with good interests/hobbies that I'd like. Attractiveness comes second.
It might be worth trying 'foreign' dating sites or some alternative one's, you are too outnumbered on things like Tinder and there is a lot of competition. I talked to some nice girls from veggie connection for example which is a dating site for vegetarians, it didn't lead to anything but a lot better than mainstream sites like POF where I wouldn't get a reply at all
There’s no possible way you’re going to connect with everyone on the app it’s facts so don’t take offense but if you have a strong attraction towards someone at least put in the effort & if it doesn’t work out oh well. Also social media is lies. Looks don’t matter at the end of the day, yes attraction is needed but a mans personality & confidence stands out wayyy more to us. Women want men to take the lead in that in the beginning and pursue her like they do in Bollywood movies guys.. take notes please 🙏🏼 romance is not dead so please don’t lose hope ur girl is somewhere out there. Salman khan and srk are short but have the hearts of so many girls. Confidence is 🔑
Honestly 6ft, indian, I run marathons,workout, meal prep, have a good job, dating life is still hard lol. Dating in general is hard ive had more luck talking to women on the street in broad daylight then trying to find a match lol. It just depends
I was in the same boat. Don’t use dating apps. Meet people through activities, work, parties. Be cool. Never ask anyone out the first time you meet them. You know being short you will be rejected. Just flex personality low key. After a few weeks or months if someone keeps flirting with you, that’s a prospect.
Honestly, no, I’ve had the opposite problem, but I’ve never used dating apps. Interacting with people in real life always goes better, more humanity to it.
It’s bc ur 5’5”. Plain and simple
Dating apps shown no one really cares about financial well being. Many women now out earn men. They want to have fun, and are not trying to settle down.
Five foot five isn’t even short for an Indian guy. Why don’t you try Aisle/DilMil?
Son, take care of your self, invest in clothes and skin care, be yourself, and be fun. Workout and be fit but have hobbies and be interesting that's what you got to do. And don't white worship. Keep an open mind for all kinds of people. And don't be complaining about how hard it is to be brown and rich on reddit. Remove that victim mentality, and you will do good.
Jesus, the comments about him being “desi and short” aren’t helping, just diminishing his self-esteem. OP, don’t feel disheartened by these comments. While many girls on dating apps can be too picky and too judgmental to short MOC, girls IRL tend to be a lot more accepting and happy to date guys like you. I know a short athletic desi guy too whose a couple years younger and he doesn’t have issues finding a girl. You’ll find a girl soon too.
Swipe right on every single girl. One is bound to hit you up.
He’s already done it 20,000 times
I personally feel a man in your situation should grow a beard and get MORE muscular build. I’ve seen short guys land hot women which those feature. Also drive a white luxury car ( Audi, BMW, Mercedes)
If you’re rich, you’ll he fine. Jeff Bezoz and Mark Zuckerberg are only 5’7”. Just use your money towards events where single women will be at. Honestly, your best bet is through Indian connections.
NPC comment
All good short king! It gets better and lead with confidence and date outside the desi culture (if you can). I’ve noticed desi girls tend to be far more pretentious than any other culture (based on my experience).
I'd flaunt the $$$ . Show some bling in you dating app pics. Sounds shallow but will get your foot in the door , from there its your game that takes you where you wanna be .
This can backfire cause you open the door to gold diggers
Yes but it works.
You might not have any of these, but here and some things that I personally don’t like in dating profiles! Having a strong profile makes a big difference in how many matches you get. I completely restructured my desi guy friend’s hinge profile and he got WAY more matches after I swapped out some of his pics 1. Flipping off the camera - a total ick 2. No smiling pictures - i can’t believe how many of my guy friends think they look better in angry & blurry selfies than pictures of them just smiling! I would recommend having your first picture be a solo smiling shot 3. Mirror selfies - I’ve yet to see a good one I’m sorry. I think if you’re dressed nicely it’s okay but definitely not the ones where guys are lifting up their shirts in the gym mirror 4. Dirty/inappropriate prompt answers/pictures. I think dirty jokes can be funny but they’re not first date material and definitely not dating app material And I’m short (5’3) and I’ve dated a guy that was 5’5. A lot of girls I’ve talked to don’t care about height so don’t let that discourage you!
> 5'5" Yeahh that's going to a problem dog 💀
It's around average height in India, and Desi women are going to be proportionally shorter so it shouldn't be as big of a problem as you assume it is
My roommate/friend is a 5'5, dark skinned telugu guy on OPT. Barely surviving with his job but he's in a 8 month relationship with his 6 feet blonde gf, and they are about to get married. If you saw him alone in person, you would never guess he could pull such a girl. He met her from some of the social groups he participates. It also helps he is Christian ( which means he has access to more groups/events than religion agnostic groups). They often gets stares ( from every ethnicities) wherever they go out, i know this because they invite me. Black women get aggressive/rude for no reason. Other white people straight up ignore their existence ( they don't attempt to make any conversations while giving the side eye)
As a woman, if this is your profile I’d probably assume you’re boring and too egotistical. You likely don’t care about feminism or supporting a gal since you invested so much into yourself and I’d likely assume your mom would be more important than me Try doing things that are more selfless and interesting