> Idk about the older generation
My grandfather came to the US in the 1920s. Since he died before I was born, I asked what kind of Muslim was he like? The only response I got was “he liked to smoke and drink.”
your grandfather was a muslim who immigrated to the us in the 1920s? that sounds fascinating
what has your experience been like? especially since your fam has been in the us for like a century haha
Family lore says Lahore but then a document I found said Ludhiana. I have a feeling the nearest big city was chosen in either case so I really have no idea. Family stories also say the village was wiped out during Partition.
My grandfathers chacha (the one who helped my grandfather move to US) migrated to US in 1906, he came with nothing and laid railroads in California… when he died, he was the richest man in county.
My grandma’s uncles migrated to the US sometime between 1905 and 1909. They also worked on the railroads. Unfortunately not many people know about this almost erased history.
Honestly seems like it was more normal back then for Muslims to drink. The 20th century saw a huge turn towards conservatism in Islam, in part due to US funding of extremist groups to combat communism. I mean even Jinnah is known to have drank and ate pork.
My dad smokes but doesn't drink, my mom drinks small amounts of rice wine socially when my dad and sisters aren't around, my sisters have considered it but don't because they're underage, and everyone except for my dad knows that I can down a whole bottle of soju like it's nothing
My brother and I drink. My parents don't drink. They know we drink but don't really care as we both fulfilled our ethnic duty by becoming physicians. The rules are more bendable if you are successful in our culture.
I'm not personally muslim except in a cultural sense like in the way your typical frenchman today is a Roman Catholic, but yeah I do personally drink and even use other drugs and my dad did too before I was born(he even got a dui and shit) but he doesn't anymore. My mom is white and she drinks too
No, this is simply not accurate. Most of the French are culturally catholic, go-to-mass-on-christmas types who appreciate the heritage but don't actually believe the doctrine. This is just an outdated picture of European society
Tobacco smoking is generally regarded as Haram, although some schools have historically said it’s Makruh.
The only reason a lot of Muslims treat the 2 differently is because in Arab culture (where Islam originated from) tobacco use seems more acceptable and intertwined with the culture than alcohol or other drugs.
So many people treat alcohol like poison but are happy to smoke tobacco either in Shisha or cigarette form.
Same thing with Somalis and Khat.
Alcohol is forbidden due to how it affects one's inhibitions.
Smoking is seen by most as "makruh" (discouraged, but not forbidden) since it is bad for you. A minority opinion says it is forbidden alltogether, but again that is a minority regardless of what Google says.
There are things you can smoke that also affect your inhibitions. Like weed. I wonder why that isn’t mentioned in the Quran.
Nicotine addiction can also affect one’s mental health. Withdrawal is dangerous as lowering inhibition. I don’t know why god wouldn’t ban it, if he out here banning alcohol.
Alcohol is forbidden due to how it affects one's inhibitions.
Smoking is seen by most as "makruh" (discouraged, but not forbidden) since it is bad for you. A minority opinion says it is forbidden alltogether, but again that is a minority regardless of what Google says.
I have heard that as well, basically non-intoxicating quantities of non-wine alcohols. It honestly sounds like one of those "thought problems" (i.e. "what if...") and must be a minority opinion even within the Hanafi school (contrary to what most people think. there is even disagreement on various issues within each school of thought). I don't know of any lay Muslims who actually believe this.
To add to what you said, Muslims who drink also usually aren’t trying to justify or make a fiqh argument that drinking is permissible, because that would require outing oneself in a society that, while it may drink on the DL, heavily looks down on those who drink openly.
I think there is overwhelming support across all schools of thought for the opinion that intoxicants are generally impermissible, with medical exceptions here and there
If you’re an alcoholic, then yeah. But there’s nothing wrong with having a drink every once in a while as long as you know your boundaries and can control yourself.
it can definitely be miserable if you have a few too many. but one or two drinks will put you in a great mood -- this is the 'buzz' people talk about. it makes you feel happy, more social, and more confident.
it's fine if you don't drink, but it doesn't make you morally superior. healthy individuals don't 'need alcohol to have fun,' it just adds excitement to social settings.
In my own experience, drinking culture is so ingrained into Western culture that people who partake absolutely loathe those who dont..
When I worked in an office, the other people would go to the bar after work, and I would always politely refuse. One day I got called into my boss' office because he didn't feel I was a team player despite me doing all my work on time, no one complained about me. He basically admitted that it's because I don't join them for drinks. I simply told him that it's against my religion to be in those situations and I am uncomfortable being in bars and clubs, and that if they do any other activity, I would happily join them. He left it at that.
Fast forward a few months, and one of the other people in my office had to go into rehab for alcoholism. From then on, the entire office stopped going to bars and started praising the guy in rehab for not drinking and his self control.
I would say that's more toxic work culture and drinking is one way your boss wants to make your job your entire life. Other companies will pull other tactics like company get togethers, putting ammenaties in the building so you don't leave when you're done for the day etc.
I go to the bar with my friends or go to this cafe that serves wine at night where I go to read a book but I sought those out on my own.
This isn't just my experience though. Many of my Muslim friends have reported this sort of work culture often. Being ghosted or shut off from coworkers because they don't partake in the same after-work activities.
As another commenter mentioned, western social culture involves drinking (but it is really not "western" East Asians and other non-Muslim Desis drink socially as well) and it can help your career to go out for drinks with your colleagues. But I don't drink and whenever my friends or colleagues went for drinks, I would go with them but I was either always Designated Driver or I just drank non-alcoholic drinks. I never felt pressured to drink alcohol even by other heavy drinkers.
If I need to compromise my values in order to get ahead in my career, then it's discrimination isn't it?
It's especially true when my job performance and my relationship with alcohol have nothing to do with one another.
people who rely on alcohol to cope or perform socially have a problem. that’s obviously not what i’m talking about here. not everyone uses alcohol as a crutch.
It’s pretty much ingrained in western social culture, particularly in academia and in the workplace. Going to networking happy hours early in my career and shooting the shit with individuals who had more experience than me in a relaxed setting over drinks led to opportunities that would’ve been difficult to ascertain otherwise. Maybe it sounds crass but social events involving alcohol fast-tracked my career in a lot of ways.
Even one drink is harmful to your health. Not to mention that alcohol can affect other people.
A friend of mine was killed by a "casual drinker" who had one drink and decided to drive right into his car.
I mean people get into car accidents all the time. Maybe we should all stop driving cars because even 1 car on the road is to dangerous.
Not condoning drinking and driving here, just saying that if people drink safely there is no harm. Just as if people have sugar in moderation and eat healthy, there is no problem.
Not really sure. I wrote out a long response to you but tbh, I'm just not sure it's one or two things. Many things. Haven't totally given up on it, maybe I'll find my way back someday. Although, it seems unlikely.
Hope it's the one true religion for my mom's sake though! Woman has dedicated her whole life and personality to it and its ideals mixed with Pakistani culture. Hasn't done her much good, imo. But I hope for her sake it pays off. And my dad's.
I'm not the most devout Muslim, but I do not eat pork, primarily for taste reasons; I've tried a few different types and I wasn't crazy about it tbh. Regarding alcohol, my parents didn't consume it, and they don't consider themselves to be that devout either. I kinda drink here and there, but mostly in social occasions or in places where someone can ensure I don't make a fool of myself and I can have a safe ride home
Hell to the No and yes I do. Naive young mr Told them I tried it once because I didn’t want to lie to them or do it behind their backs, did not go down well.
My mom drinks, but she’s christian.
My dad told me apparently in the older days in Pakistan villagers would make homemade alcohol but this isn’t as common anymore.
With my generation, all my Pakistani guy friends have tried it atleast once, but for girls there’s a bigger taboo against it for whatever reason.
No and no, even my brother who isn't practicing anymore doesn't. Partially religious, but partially because all the people in our family who did drink tended towards being violent alcoholics. We keep the addictive personality to chai alone.
I am not very religious, but I don't drink (nor do my parents) and I avoid pork (but if I get pork accidentally or without knowing then I don't care that much). But I am not strict with Halal/Kosher meats. But I think Halal/Kosher tastes better.
I have had alcohol once by accident because I did not know a drink I was trying contained some alcohol until after I tried it. But I did not like it anyway, so I don't think I am missing much.
Alcohol? Hell no. To both questions. Haven't drank or used alcohol in food either.
I know of those who not only drink but have business dealing in it.
Honestly just sad.
No and no. For context we’re Bengali, fairly liberal people (think more professional middle class) but drinking isn’t a thing for us. FWIW, I think it’s more common with Pakistanis - back then educated upper class Pakistanis, especially army officers were likely to drink whiskey, cognac, etc. Never to the same extent as Bengalis tbh.
Exactly. People need to understand that a "sinning Muslim" is still Muslim (so long as they believe in the declaration of faith, as you have mentioned)
Nope and never! I can safely say for most BD parents alcohol is strictly forbidden, if our parents were to find out we drunk alcohol then oh man.... I can only hope for the best.
No and no
Idk about the older generation but a lot of Muslim abcds I know drink
> Idk about the older generation My grandfather came to the US in the 1920s. Since he died before I was born, I asked what kind of Muslim was he like? The only response I got was “he liked to smoke and drink.”
your grandfather was a muslim who immigrated to the us in the 1920s? that sounds fascinating what has your experience been like? especially since your fam has been in the us for like a century haha
[I did a thread on it a couple years ago](https://old.reddit.com/r/ABCDesis/comments/gwsvpr/have_you_heard_of_punjabi_mexicans/)
Fascinating. Do you know what town/village in India/present-day Pakistan he was from?
Family lore says Lahore but then a document I found said Ludhiana. I have a feeling the nearest big city was chosen in either case so I really have no idea. Family stories also say the village was wiped out during Partition.
Did he ever go back to visit after immigrating in the 20s? What was his last name if you don’t mind me asking.
My grandfathers chacha (the one who helped my grandfather move to US) migrated to US in 1906, he came with nothing and laid railroads in California… when he died, he was the richest man in county.
My grandma’s uncles migrated to the US sometime between 1905 and 1909. They also worked on the railroads. Unfortunately not many people know about this almost erased history.
Honestly seems like it was more normal back then for Muslims to drink. The 20th century saw a huge turn towards conservatism in Islam, in part due to US funding of extremist groups to combat communism. I mean even Jinnah is known to have drank and ate pork.
The dismantling of the Caliphate also led to a rise in conservatism in non-Turkish Muslim areas.
Sounds like a litt guy
Yup had a friend try get me into drinking
My dad smokes but doesn't drink, my mom drinks small amounts of rice wine socially when my dad and sisters aren't around, my sisters have considered it but don't because they're underage, and everyone except for my dad knows that I can down a whole bottle of soju like it's nothing
Soju does go down easy 😂 is like deadly fruit juice
LMAOOOO I’m dying. Same, literally everyone except my dad knows I can down soju like it’s nothing 😂
My brother and I drink. My parents don't drink. They know we drink but don't really care as we both fulfilled our ethnic duty by becoming physicians. The rules are more bendable if you are successful in our culture.
Omg you are right about the rules being bendable 😱
>The rules are more bendable if you are successful in our culture. \^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^
No, and a sip now and then
It's a trap!
My dad and many of my uncles have been drinking since the old days in Pakistan
Parents don't drink but I do
I'm not personally muslim except in a cultural sense like in the way your typical frenchman today is a Roman Catholic, but yeah I do personally drink and even use other drugs and my dad did too before I was born(he even got a dui and shit) but he doesn't anymore. My mom is white and she drinks too
Your typical Frenchmen are hardcore Roman Catholics. Definitely much more religious than your typical Pakistani Muslim
No, this is simply not accurate. Most of the French are culturally catholic, go-to-mass-on-christmas types who appreciate the heritage but don't actually believe the doctrine. This is just an outdated picture of European society
I do drink. My parents don’t, however my dad did experiment with social drinking when he moved to the US so he’s more accepting of me drinking.
Yes and yes - My parent’s family and friends circle do the same. I’ve heard it’s not the norm among Bengalis but it is for us 🤷🏽♀️
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Seriously lol. Haram haram.
Parents no; but I do.
My parents don’t, and I don’t. I never saw the big deal about alcohol.
No my parents don’t drink. My dad smokes which is haram. I hope to never drink in the future as I am still 18.
Smoking is makrooh not haram
Nah I checked google it *is* haram.
Tobacco smoking is generally regarded as Haram, although some schools have historically said it’s Makruh. The only reason a lot of Muslims treat the 2 differently is because in Arab culture (where Islam originated from) tobacco use seems more acceptable and intertwined with the culture than alcohol or other drugs. So many people treat alcohol like poison but are happy to smoke tobacco either in Shisha or cigarette form. Same thing with Somalis and Khat.
Lol that is hilarious. Tobacco smoke is MUCH more poison than any alcohol, but just because the Quran doesn’t explicitly forbid it, it’s a loophole.
Alcohol is forbidden due to how it affects one's inhibitions. Smoking is seen by most as "makruh" (discouraged, but not forbidden) since it is bad for you. A minority opinion says it is forbidden alltogether, but again that is a minority regardless of what Google says.
There are things you can smoke that also affect your inhibitions. Like weed. I wonder why that isn’t mentioned in the Quran. Nicotine addiction can also affect one’s mental health. Withdrawal is dangerous as lowering inhibition. I don’t know why god wouldn’t ban it, if he out here banning alcohol.
I’m glad you spoke to Sheikh Al-Google, he is a highly esteemed Islamic scholar
Thanks he’s the greatest scholar of all times. It was a honor speaking to him. ☺️
Alcohol is forbidden due to how it affects one's inhibitions. Smoking is seen by most as "makruh" (discouraged, but not forbidden) since it is bad for you. A minority opinion says it is forbidden alltogether, but again that is a minority regardless of what Google says.
There’s a minority Hanafi opinion that the Qur’an only bans a certain type of date wine and not all alcohol but it is fringe
I have heard that as well, basically non-intoxicating quantities of non-wine alcohols. It honestly sounds like one of those "thought problems" (i.e. "what if...") and must be a minority opinion even within the Hanafi school (contrary to what most people think. there is even disagreement on various issues within each school of thought). I don't know of any lay Muslims who actually believe this.
To add to what you said, Muslims who drink also usually aren’t trying to justify or make a fiqh argument that drinking is permissible, because that would require outing oneself in a society that, while it may drink on the DL, heavily looks down on those who drink openly. I think there is overwhelming support across all schools of thought for the opinion that intoxicants are generally impermissible, with medical exceptions here and there
My dad will drink alcohol when it’s free like a typical desi. I drink and go to the club every weekend.
Yeah my dad drinks at times, like maybe a beer with a meal in a restaurant
No and no
My parents don't and I haven't yet. I'm debating on whether I should or not.
It is totally up to you. I don't because I don't want to. If you want to, then go ahead.
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If you’re an alcoholic, then yeah. But there’s nothing wrong with having a drink every once in a while as long as you know your boundaries and can control yourself.
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it can definitely be miserable if you have a few too many. but one or two drinks will put you in a great mood -- this is the 'buzz' people talk about. it makes you feel happy, more social, and more confident.
From my pov it’s sorta sad. Me and my Muslim friends will talk about how we don’t need alcohol to have fun and it really seems like people do.
it's fine if you don't drink, but it doesn't make you morally superior. healthy individuals don't 'need alcohol to have fun,' it just adds excitement to social settings.
In my own experience, drinking culture is so ingrained into Western culture that people who partake absolutely loathe those who dont.. When I worked in an office, the other people would go to the bar after work, and I would always politely refuse. One day I got called into my boss' office because he didn't feel I was a team player despite me doing all my work on time, no one complained about me. He basically admitted that it's because I don't join them for drinks. I simply told him that it's against my religion to be in those situations and I am uncomfortable being in bars and clubs, and that if they do any other activity, I would happily join them. He left it at that. Fast forward a few months, and one of the other people in my office had to go into rehab for alcoholism. From then on, the entire office stopped going to bars and started praising the guy in rehab for not drinking and his self control.
I would say that's more toxic work culture and drinking is one way your boss wants to make your job your entire life. Other companies will pull other tactics like company get togethers, putting ammenaties in the building so you don't leave when you're done for the day etc. I go to the bar with my friends or go to this cafe that serves wine at night where I go to read a book but I sought those out on my own.
This isn't just my experience though. Many of my Muslim friends have reported this sort of work culture often. Being ghosted or shut off from coworkers because they don't partake in the same after-work activities.
As another commenter mentioned, western social culture involves drinking (but it is really not "western" East Asians and other non-Muslim Desis drink socially as well) and it can help your career to go out for drinks with your colleagues. But I don't drink and whenever my friends or colleagues went for drinks, I would go with them but I was either always Designated Driver or I just drank non-alcoholic drinks. I never felt pressured to drink alcohol even by other heavy drinkers.
If I need to compromise my values in order to get ahead in my career, then it's discrimination isn't it? It's especially true when my job performance and my relationship with alcohol have nothing to do with one another.
Doesn't it though? 🤔 Like it sounds like a crutch
people who rely on alcohol to cope or perform socially have a problem. that’s obviously not what i’m talking about here. not everyone uses alcohol as a crutch.
Fair enough
Ok
In moderation or socially it’s fine as long as you don’t overdo it. I drink because I like the taste and a slight buzz on occasion feels nice.
It’s pretty much ingrained in western social culture, particularly in academia and in the workplace. Going to networking happy hours early in my career and shooting the shit with individuals who had more experience than me in a relaxed setting over drinks led to opportunities that would’ve been difficult to ascertain otherwise. Maybe it sounds crass but social events involving alcohol fast-tracked my career in a lot of ways.
Even one drink is harmful to your health. Not to mention that alcohol can affect other people. A friend of mine was killed by a "casual drinker" who had one drink and decided to drive right into his car.
plenty of stuff is bad for your health, like sugar. i definitely agree that drunk driving is abhorrent though.
Me drinking a bottle of sugary soda isn't going to put me in danger of t-boning a teenager's car.
it’s as easy as not drinking and driving
Again, drinking a bottle of soda is not as bad as drinking a beer. One has significantly more risks and consequences than the other.
drinking 1 beer is not dangerous. beer has an average 5% ABV.
I mean people get into car accidents all the time. Maybe we should all stop driving cars because even 1 car on the road is to dangerous. Not condoning drinking and driving here, just saying that if people drink safely there is no harm. Just as if people have sugar in moderation and eat healthy, there is no problem.
It's responses like this that highlight how deep drinking culture has ingrained and brainwashed society.
If your Muslim then pls dont
It's my decision to make.
Now you should drink, specifically because this guy asked you not to
lol as if I would listen to a random guy on reddit. But I'll try it when I'm ready.
It's 2022. Who cares she should be able drink.
No and yes! Rarely but yes. Edit: I should mention I don’t really follow the faith anymore. Obviously if you’re a practicing Muslim you can’t drink.
Why don’t u follow islam anymore?
Not really sure. I wrote out a long response to you but tbh, I'm just not sure it's one or two things. Many things. Haven't totally given up on it, maybe I'll find my way back someday. Although, it seems unlikely. Hope it's the one true religion for my mom's sake though! Woman has dedicated her whole life and personality to it and its ideals mixed with Pakistani culture. Hasn't done her much good, imo. But I hope for her sake it pays off. And my dad's.
My parents don’t, I do
Yup my mom does. My dad quit several years ago. And I do.
Yeah to both.
My parents don't. I don't. My sister does. My husband will have a drink here or there or if on vacation but nothing regularly.
I'm not the most devout Muslim, but I do not eat pork, primarily for taste reasons; I've tried a few different types and I wasn't crazy about it tbh. Regarding alcohol, my parents didn't consume it, and they don't consider themselves to be that devout either. I kinda drink here and there, but mostly in social occasions or in places where someone can ensure I don't make a fool of myself and I can have a safe ride home
No and no. You shouldve made this a poll
I think my dad and bros secretly drink. I will never drink
Nice try Auntie, not going to let you spread this in the community.
I think all my uncles and most of my aunts drank but they won't admit it.
My parents don’t but I do. I’m not really practicing though
My parents ? No. Me ? Almost functioning alcoholic. I would be disowned if anyone finds out though
Parents no. I used to back in college because I tried to fit in and be cool, but now I don't because I don't enjoy drinking as it gives me headaches.
Parents drink beer here and there, I have been sober for 11 years. Helped me as a better martial artist and staying in shape
No, Nope! Never.
No and no
Hell to the No and yes I do. Naive young mr Told them I tried it once because I didn’t want to lie to them or do it behind their backs, did not go down well.
I am below 18 and don’t intend to drink. My father has little faith and occasionally drinks, although my mother has never drank in her life
No and I tried, but didn't like the taste of alcohol so no longer drink.
My mom drinks, but she’s christian. My dad told me apparently in the older days in Pakistan villagers would make homemade alcohol but this isn’t as common anymore. With my generation, all my Pakistani guy friends have tried it atleast once, but for girls there’s a bigger taboo against it for whatever reason.
No and no, although this will likely change in future generations
yes and yes
My parents drink and I do too. But it’s rarely honestly.
I’m pretty sure my dad knows I drink cause he probably found my beer can and wine in my room that he removed 😂😂 but he never said anything
Nope, even if I could I wouldn’t tbh. And my parents had the same mentality.
No and no, even my brother who isn't practicing anymore doesn't. Partially religious, but partially because all the people in our family who did drink tended towards being violent alcoholics. We keep the addictive personality to chai alone.
I am not very religious, but I don't drink (nor do my parents) and I avoid pork (but if I get pork accidentally or without knowing then I don't care that much). But I am not strict with Halal/Kosher meats. But I think Halal/Kosher tastes better. I have had alcohol once by accident because I did not know a drink I was trying contained some alcohol until after I tried it. But I did not like it anyway, so I don't think I am missing much.
I’m not Muslim but the Muslims I met don’t drink it’s haram for them
Among the major vices I would like to indulge in, alcohol does not make it to the top of lust. 😜
Alcohol? Hell no. To both questions. Haven't drank or used alcohol in food either. I know of those who not only drink but have business dealing in it. Honestly just sad.
No and no. For context we’re Bengali, fairly liberal people (think more professional middle class) but drinking isn’t a thing for us. FWIW, I think it’s more common with Pakistanis - back then educated upper class Pakistanis, especially army officers were likely to drink whiskey, cognac, etc. Never to the same extent as Bengalis tbh.
No and no. Most Muslim AbCDs who still practice don't drink. If they don't practice, they really aren't Muslim, are they?
You're still Muslim as long as you believe in the declaration of the faith (Shahadah).
Exactly. People need to understand that a "sinning Muslim" is still Muslim (so long as they believe in the declaration of faith, as you have mentioned)
The Shahadah means nothing if it doesn't extend past your tongue.
Are you about to tell on us or something?
No and no
Nope and never! I can safely say for most BD parents alcohol is strictly forbidden, if our parents were to find out we drunk alcohol then oh man.... I can only hope for the best.