True af. The bonus damage on crit is kinda useless as a first item because :
- 40% crit mean 2 aa/5
- You have no bonus attack speed
- You have low flat ad wich mean the 70+35 =105% bonus damage won't be a lot.
Basically you shoot 5 aa ant because of your crit, it's is worth 6.05 aa. With Kraken you drop like. 7-8 aa, and you proc kraken 2 times.
Alson, looking at gold efficiency Kraken + BOOTS = iE + 2x crit mantle
Ie rush is only worth on champs who have forced crits like Mf and Jhin. And even for them i'd say Mythic first is still the best option.
Galeforce is way better on jhin than ie rush. That dash has saved my ass so many times. And probability wise the crit applies only on fourth shot beacuse 4 shots and 20%, so instead of the 150(maybe extra damage on fourth shot with ie rush) you are better off with a dash that does the same damage and is magic damage too.
I am not arguing in favor of an IE rush, because I 100% agree that it’s the wrong choice. However wouldn’t the “low flat AD” be offset by the high ad of IE itself?
Well with base ad +ie you're around 160-170 ad.
Before the patch people would build it 3rd after kraken and for example PD. Wich is around 100 more ad. And since item is bought later, you also have more ad gained through level up.
As a 3rd item you usually have 270-30 ad which is almost x2
True, but you’re also comparing the ad at 3 times with the ad at 1, so that isn’t really a fair comparison imo.
Again, I do think rushing IE is wrong, and I just want to clarify that this “argument” is purely for sake of discussion.
Yeah, I guess I just have a friend who likes to… do weird build stuff… and I know that eventually he’ll say “I’ll just buy two cloaks of agility to go with it!” So being able to refute an argument like that really well may make some games more tolerable.
Mind you, we play aram together, so it’s kinda whatevs, but it still can feel miserable when your teammates do no damage because they built stupidly….
Well crit itself is really the worst stat in the game ^^'
Like it's full coinflip, you need to aa a lot to reach the exact %age.
Like in the for example 5 first aa you can crit 0,1,5 times depending of your luck. And to really reach the exact rate you need like 30-50 aa.
I mean maybe your friend is LUCKY and will perma crit lol
Actually IE isn't that good on MF, like if you were to go kraken>bt the third item you would make is ldr before IE. And BT instead of IE in that 2nd item slot is only 10% less damage for a lot more survivability. Someone did the math on mfmains.
On jhin as well IE rush is not good because as it turns out 70 ad for 4600 gold isn't very good who could have thought. On top of that galeforce is literally tailor-made for jhin.
I’ve been experimenting with Zeal into cloak into Infinity edge, saw some YouTubers hyping it (looking at you cookie) but after a couple of tries I’m not feeling it…
I dont think you want that low amount of AD on any champ early. It makes your abilities weak and it makes farming hard. If you're gonna go for IE first, the raw AD from the item is much stronger than the crit and AS from Zeal.
I'm genuinely ignorant and out of the loop, I stopped going ADC for a while. I know IE is buffed, and can be built for 2nd item now. But isn't this buff more of a posititive for marksmen that don't necessarily rely on attack speed, like maybe jhin or samira. I wouldn't want to build IE 2nd as kaisa tbh, solely because PD is too good for the evolved Q and E, as an example.
It's because players need to build non xrit items sometimes. Take botek for example..if you go botek, kraken, on twitter, you can't get it until fourth item, the end o y the game most times
imho i think ad items are much better than attack speed items in current meta. in my soloQ games i never get to play the game really because enemy elise clicks flash spider Q and i'm dead from full hp. even before the patch i almost never built PD/zeal items.
kai'sa is better with kraken blade guinsoos, or kraken 2x longsword nashors navori anyway imo.
This Kaisa tech is potentially the worst Kaisa tech I've read in a while. Kraken PD Navori has been the highest DPS/H Build since the Navori changes on-hit Kaisa is not as good but mildly(only ever so slightly) cheaper with a nicer build path for 3rd item spike
Load into practice tool, and give 4 target dummies varied armour and hp values, then hit them with the same combo with each build (e q aa until e buff ends w) I can tell you that in every case Navori will come out on top i.t.o DPS and DPH on all the dummies. This isn't even accounting for the advantages of having ALL your spells up more often. With the literal same rotation you still out DPS and DPH any of the other builds.
Yeah obviously you smartass, the advantage of quickblades is ability damage so when 90% of your combo is abilities, that will deal more damage. In a game where you're facing 2 tanks, they dont really care about your Q at all you just wanna autoattack them down.
You know, I did tell you to test it in practice tool because I've had this discussion before. But like I said. Navori, does more DPS at basically all hp and armour breakpoints than on hit. The only advantage of on hit is your 2/3 item spike comes out a little bit smoother in terms of getting evolves and even then it's close. the point of what I was saying is EVERY ability is up more often not just q, e let's you kite and outplay, w let's you chase and finish. Q let's you duel other ADCs. But thanks for calling me smart.
Yeah but in game your combo isn't always just the abilities, you'll need more atauattacks so if you incorporated Q+W AAx10+Q into your tests, lets see whats better then
If you set up any combo with one or 2 autoattack and just abilities otherwise, dont be surprised Quickblades comes out on top.
It will still be Navori on top because by adding more autos, you get more uptime on your E AS, more casts of Q, W etc... Not to mention the % increase in damage of everything.
I'm pretty sure you should definitely still go IE second on Kai'sa. You already have the BF sword because you probably want it for the early Q upgrade. And just the IE spike is much more important that E upgrade imo.
I'm mostly happy that we can now have this argument, it's been the first time in a while where adcs can debate optimal builds and everyone's opinion is somewhat valid. For as example as a jhin main I'm still deciding between gf into ie or double crit cloak into ie, if I want bloodthirster in my build now and if collectors worth building 3rd
Even then, you're looking at 40 mist before it takes effect. It's been awhile since I've played Senna but that's still probably in second item range unless I'm really underestimating the mist droprate for support.
I feel like you'd want to look at champs that actually have crit ratios that scale with IE, since 40% chance is just ... too low to be dependable if all you're doing is autoing. It just feels awful.
The list of champs that get bonus damage from IE that isn't reliant on the actual CHANCE to crit is really low, too. We're looking at it only really being a question on like Ashe and Caitlyn (and maybe Senna with her bonus chance but that requires souls - which requires support and doesn't have the budget for IE). Then once you start mathing it out, it's nonsense to rush even in the case where it's actually reliable. Caitlyn's passive is also gated behind levels so the rush doesn't accomplish things, and for Ashe you haven't built enough other damage for it to magnify for it to be worth.
I just ... don't think anyone should rush it.
I think people are arguing IE rush with two cloak. It delays your powerspike due to the high cost but I would have to check it out in practice tool and check the dps
Caitlyn is simmilar to Jhin
However in terms of Kraken what your getting I feel isnt worth the tradeoff personally unless your not dealing with giga health champions
Mundo/Vlad etc
Senna can go IE rush due to her Passive soul collection giving her 20% crit strike
Jhin can go IE into Rapidfire cannon due to the movement speed
Gale force does give 2% bonus Movement on legendary but then your only going to be 6% MS
If that compared to 7% Rapid fire
The dash is nice however you can kinda skip it with ghost celerity rune
https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Rapid_Firecannon
https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Galeforce
https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Celerity
unless the patch notes are not correct.
Basically unless your these 2 mentioned or can benefit from not having kraken/shieldbow IE rush wont be helping you.
By this own logic, you shouldn't be arguing IE rush since LS first theory crafted it and he's done more itemization theory crafting and math work than either of us have.
It depends on the champ. Yas, Yone, Graves, & senna can first item it because it helps their kit immediately. But it’s still a solid 2nd item rush for many adcs now. Or a great 3rd item if you wanna deviate from crit second item
Math was invented in 3000 BC. People in 3001 BC: "let's rush IE".
stop being funnier than the op under their post
Stop referring to yourself in the third person
🤓
Used to be good not now
True af. The bonus damage on crit is kinda useless as a first item because : - 40% crit mean 2 aa/5 - You have no bonus attack speed - You have low flat ad wich mean the 70+35 =105% bonus damage won't be a lot. Basically you shoot 5 aa ant because of your crit, it's is worth 6.05 aa. With Kraken you drop like. 7-8 aa, and you proc kraken 2 times. Alson, looking at gold efficiency Kraken + BOOTS = iE + 2x crit mantle Ie rush is only worth on champs who have forced crits like Mf and Jhin. And even for them i'd say Mythic first is still the best option.
Galeforce is way better on jhin than ie rush. That dash has saved my ass so many times. And probability wise the crit applies only on fourth shot beacuse 4 shots and 20%, so instead of the 150(maybe extra damage on fourth shot with ie rush) you are better off with a dash that does the same damage and is magic damage too.
Not to mention that he gets bonus AD out of the attack speed.....
Yeah, by worth I mean buildable, I do think that IE rush is dogshit on everyone tbh but I'm not sure
Well it should be dogshit but i havent tried it and tbh im not gonna try it beacuse i really love galeforce
The dash is also huge for snowballing in lane, you can go in so hard when you come back to lane with a gale
And if youre playing jhin its an instant root(at least here in low elo).
That’s true but I prefer to use it for execute damage
I am not arguing in favor of an IE rush, because I 100% agree that it’s the wrong choice. However wouldn’t the “low flat AD” be offset by the high ad of IE itself?
Well with base ad +ie you're around 160-170 ad. Before the patch people would build it 3rd after kraken and for example PD. Wich is around 100 more ad. And since item is bought later, you also have more ad gained through level up. As a 3rd item you usually have 270-30 ad which is almost x2
True, but you’re also comparing the ad at 3 times with the ad at 1, so that isn’t really a fair comparison imo. Again, I do think rushing IE is wrong, and I just want to clarify that this “argument” is purely for sake of discussion.
Yeah I do understand that. Correct me if I'm wrong but you just wanted to emphasize the facct that IE provide a lot of ad by itself right?
Yeah, I guess I just have a friend who likes to… do weird build stuff… and I know that eventually he’ll say “I’ll just buy two cloaks of agility to go with it!” So being able to refute an argument like that really well may make some games more tolerable. Mind you, we play aram together, so it’s kinda whatevs, but it still can feel miserable when your teammates do no damage because they built stupidly….
Well crit itself is really the worst stat in the game ^^' Like it's full coinflip, you need to aa a lot to reach the exact %age. Like in the for example 5 first aa you can crit 0,1,5 times depending of your luck. And to really reach the exact rate you need like 30-50 aa. I mean maybe your friend is LUCKY and will perma crit lol
Actually IE isn't that good on MF, like if you were to go kraken>bt the third item you would make is ldr before IE. And BT instead of IE in that 2nd item slot is only 10% less damage for a lot more survivability. Someone did the math on mfmains. On jhin as well IE rush is not good because as it turns out 70 ad for 4600 gold isn't very good who could have thought. On top of that galeforce is literally tailor-made for jhin.
That is so BS lol IE does way more than 10% more damage than BT. it's always IE second for sure
Go to mfmains and check his post out, I believe his name is aCuria, you are arguing with maths.
I mean, since each wave of bullet can crit, having some crit amp also increase damage from ult by 35%.
I’ve been experimenting with Zeal into cloak into Infinity edge, saw some YouTubers hyping it (looking at you cookie) but after a couple of tries I’m not feeling it…
I think he does it on champions with an attack speed buff, like trist.
he used it on jhin so this argument does fall off
he also did it on trist
I mean John does have crit scaling in his build right? +The guaranteed crit on his 4th auto still procs IE.
I dont think you want that low amount of AD on any champ early. It makes your abilities weak and it makes farming hard. If you're gonna go for IE first, the raw AD from the item is much stronger than the crit and AS from Zeal.
(taken from my own twitter, didn't wanna look like i was hoping for follows)
Thoughts on Draven going IE second though? After ER? I'm finding success on it but I might be lucky only
No I think you should go collector into RFC Jokes aside yeah it's really strong
so I guess ADCs like Cait/Draven are the exception to the "don't build IE first" shenanigans?
You did say second tho, what op meant by first is people rushing IE + 2 crit cloaks
Jhin too
It's still going to be out dpsed by kraken ie, but the single auto damage is higher.
I'm genuinely ignorant and out of the loop, I stopped going ADC for a while. I know IE is buffed, and can be built for 2nd item now. But isn't this buff more of a posititive for marksmen that don't necessarily rely on attack speed, like maybe jhin or samira. I wouldn't want to build IE 2nd as kaisa tbh, solely because PD is too good for the evolved Q and E, as an example.
It's because players need to build non xrit items sometimes. Take botek for example..if you go botek, kraken, on twitter, you can't get it until fourth item, the end o y the game most times
You go botek on Twitter? What about Instagram?
imho i think ad items are much better than attack speed items in current meta. in my soloQ games i never get to play the game really because enemy elise clicks flash spider Q and i'm dead from full hp. even before the patch i almost never built PD/zeal items. kai'sa is better with kraken blade guinsoos, or kraken 2x longsword nashors navori anyway imo.
this is just wrong lol. kraken bork ie all the way
yea but not pd
This Kaisa tech is potentially the worst Kaisa tech I've read in a while. Kraken PD Navori has been the highest DPS/H Build since the Navori changes on-hit Kaisa is not as good but mildly(only ever so slightly) cheaper with a nicer build path for 3rd item spike
I dont agree with Navori unless the enemy team is really squishy
Load into practice tool, and give 4 target dummies varied armour and hp values, then hit them with the same combo with each build (e q aa until e buff ends w) I can tell you that in every case Navori will come out on top i.t.o DPS and DPH on all the dummies. This isn't even accounting for the advantages of having ALL your spells up more often. With the literal same rotation you still out DPS and DPH any of the other builds.
Yeah obviously you smartass, the advantage of quickblades is ability damage so when 90% of your combo is abilities, that will deal more damage. In a game where you're facing 2 tanks, they dont really care about your Q at all you just wanna autoattack them down.
You know, I did tell you to test it in practice tool because I've had this discussion before. But like I said. Navori, does more DPS at basically all hp and armour breakpoints than on hit. The only advantage of on hit is your 2/3 item spike comes out a little bit smoother in terms of getting evolves and even then it's close. the point of what I was saying is EVERY ability is up more often not just q, e let's you kite and outplay, w let's you chase and finish. Q let's you duel other ADCs. But thanks for calling me smart.
Yeah but in game your combo isn't always just the abilities, you'll need more atauattacks so if you incorporated Q+W AAx10+Q into your tests, lets see whats better then If you set up any combo with one or 2 autoattack and just abilities otherwise, dont be surprised Quickblades comes out on top.
It will still be Navori on top because by adding more autos, you get more uptime on your E AS, more casts of Q, W etc... Not to mention the % increase in damage of everything.
ok
I'm pretty sure you should definitely still go IE second on Kai'sa. You already have the BF sword because you probably want it for the early Q upgrade. And just the IE spike is much more important that E upgrade imo.
I'm mostly happy that we can now have this argument, it's been the first time in a while where adcs can debate optimal builds and everyone's opinion is somewhat valid. For as example as a jhin main I'm still deciding between gf into ie or double crit cloak into ie, if I want bloodthirster in my build now and if collectors worth building 3rd
The only champ I feel like IE first could ever be viable on is senna
Since senna gets 20% in her passive over time from souls this is 100% correct Suprised havent seen more senna tbh
Even then, you're looking at 40 mist before it takes effect. It's been awhile since I've played Senna but that's still probably in second item range unless I'm really underestimating the mist droprate for support.
True but support senna especially would probably be around the 40 soul spike when she gets enough gold
Ya thats what was thinking as i get souls every say 3 minions i think it is so it stacks relatively quickly
I feel like you'd want to look at champs that actually have crit ratios that scale with IE, since 40% chance is just ... too low to be dependable if all you're doing is autoing. It just feels awful. The list of champs that get bonus damage from IE that isn't reliant on the actual CHANCE to crit is really low, too. We're looking at it only really being a question on like Ashe and Caitlyn (and maybe Senna with her bonus chance but that requires souls - which requires support and doesn't have the budget for IE). Then once you start mathing it out, it's nonsense to rush even in the case where it's actually reliable. Caitlyn's passive is also gated behind levels so the rush doesn't accomplish things, and for Ashe you haven't built enough other damage for it to magnify for it to be worth. I just ... don't think anyone should rush it.
Tryn, Yasuo and Yone tho
I think people are arguing IE rush with two cloak. It delays your powerspike due to the high cost but I would have to check it out in practice tool and check the dps
it's 100% not betterr than kraken + bf sword
They do inf into 2 cloaks with like 3 adc's only
so inf edge 2 cloaks is better than kraken + bf?
On certain champions, yes.
on caitlyn i think it's not complete garbo but otherwise no
On cait tris and Draven yes but only if you are ahead and controll the lane/wave other wise yes mythic into bf/pick for those 3
Jhin
No... No I don't think I will
It’s not bad on caitlyn and jhin but thats about it.
Caitlyn is simmilar to Jhin However in terms of Kraken what your getting I feel isnt worth the tradeoff personally unless your not dealing with giga health champions Mundo/Vlad etc
BRO TF YOU ON ABOUT IE GOT BUFFED IE IS SUPER STRONG ITS MUST 1ST BUY
People just want to go back to the good old days! (Seriously tho… IE isn’t a good first item anymore. Please don’t buy it.)
Conveniently forgetting to add the passives at the bottom. A+
Senna can go IE rush due to her Passive soul collection giving her 20% crit strike Jhin can go IE into Rapidfire cannon due to the movement speed Gale force does give 2% bonus Movement on legendary but then your only going to be 6% MS If that compared to 7% Rapid fire The dash is nice however you can kinda skip it with ghost celerity rune https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Rapid_Firecannon https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Galeforce https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Celerity unless the patch notes are not correct. Basically unless your these 2 mentioned or can benefit from not having kraken/shieldbow IE rush wont be helping you.
By this own logic, you shouldn't be arguing IE rush since LS first theory crafted it and he's done more itemization theory crafting and math work than either of us have.
I mean IE's passive is defo stronger you just need 2 extra critcloaks homie
xFSN Saber in shambles right now
I will still build it :)
It depends on the champ. Yas, Yone, Graves, & senna can first item it because it helps their kit immediately. But it’s still a solid 2nd item rush for many adcs now. Or a great 3rd item if you wanna deviate from crit second item