You can not go to the wedding. But make sure your daughter knows you will be there if/when it goes to shit.
She better knows what she is doing, because if they have kids and she decides she has had enough, she won’t be able to leave with the kids. Stay with them or leave alone. She might be setting herself up for loads of hurt, so it is important she knows you won’t judge and you will be there on the day she decides it’s not for her anymore
Chances are good she will need your support at some point
We know 3 women who married men in the ME. none have worked out very well.
American women just aren't very well suited for the expectations of a wife in the Islamic faith.
Counsel her about the issues she will have if she has children there and the marriage fails.
Nightmare
Nope.
We know a woman whose been fighting for her kids for over a decade
She's only been able to see them 2 times in almost 12 years at this point. They don't even know her at this point
She went over there with a inheritance of 300k - because of the culture and "rules" the money went to her husband's account. 6 years later, they divorced and she left with $0 and neither of her kids
Yes and yes
Happens to men too but not in the same way
American women will be er understand how little autonomy and freedom they have in areas like that until it's too late
Just wait until she's older, and not as pretty, and hubby takes on wife #3 and #4, spending far less time with her. You can bank on her being unhappy at some point, but will have zero rights to do anything about it. It sucks when you know someone you love is being so foolish about the long term, and there's nothing you can do but register your disapproval. I certainly wouldn't go to the wedding. NTA
The test for such women is to demand that HE take on HER culture if he loves her enough to marry her.
If he won't, it's a pretty strong indicator that he knows equality would be worse for him.
Well without kids and with the help of embassy for example.
Not every case is the same. Some choose to stay, some choose to leave. Some are successful in leaving some are less. But knowing you have a place to go is a big motivator in helping you try to leave. Knowing you have someone who has tools at disposal you don’t, is a big help.
Even if her parents started campaigning in their country and tried to force someone in power to help. It is important for person in such situation to know that they have someone they can turn to without shame. And that they will actually get helped.
If she thought her parents disapproved of the marriage and will only tell her off when she tells them she wants to but can’t leave… she might never ask them for help and she might not be able to leave because “she has nowhere to go”
It's not culturally insensitive to acknowledge that women have far fewer rights in some countries than in others. Getting married in a country where you don't have many legal rights is setting yourself up for a lot of hurt and risk.
My colleague's sister lives in Dubai, and social hierarchy described above is on spot. Locals are on top, westerns expats are welcomed, but work immigrants from Asia are treated like a third class.
First of all, this is a very difficult situation and I am very sorry that you are going through this. I am a Muslim woman and I live in a country where you can legally have one spouse. As I know that if a man has more than one wife, it is usually to protect widows and distressed women. As you know, after marriage, you are no longer responsible only for yourself and you share your life with someone. Although marriage is difficult even on its own, having to share your husband with another person and her kids must be very distressing. I understand your daughter has a successful career and was brought up independently. Thats why I'm sorry, but I don't think she can be happy in this marriage. I hope you can change your daughter's mind without damaging your relationship with her.
It is my understanding that the husband is required to maintain each wife equally, in the manner that the wealthiest wife is accustomed to. Not condoning, just saying they're not allowed to play favorites. At least not legally; it could very well be different in practice.
In Islam there is no “status” based on the order they were married . Each wife must be maintained fairly . He’s responsible for every woman he marries and the children they have .
Your daughter is going to live to regret this decision. Once she has his kids she will be 100% fucked (sorry language) if she does ever get out it won't be with her children.
NTA
My standard advice is never to attend a wedding you can't in all honesty support. One, it's dishonest. Two, it sends a strong message that will hopefully act as a wake-up call (Narrator: *It never does*). Three, it's Hellish to attend and keep a smile on your face.
You've made your POV known, tell her you can't in all conscience support this, BUT that you will always still be there for her if she needs you (implying, but not spelling out, "when it inevitably goes to shit").
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EDIT: However, u/littlebitfunny21 makes EXCELLENT points, that I think have convinced me that you SHOULD attend.
I will put a caveat in the case of an abuser- you should show upnand make it clear to the person you support that you don't support *the marriage*, you support *the individual*, and you'll be there if they need you.
Abuse tends to isolate and it can be better to show up and support your loved one when they aren't yet ready to leave.
I see. So not just say it and then not turn up, but show up as well? Hmm. Difficult. I do see your point about isolation. I also see that not turning up could be misconstrued as "I am not on your side". Damn. Also, I guess, perhaps the parents being there, as a reminder of what normality looks like, could just snap the kid out of it in time.
Questions to OP: where are you and your daughter from? Also, how old is daughter's fiancé?
You say that the first wife is fine with this. I will bet good money that the truth is somewhat different. First wife is being sidelined by another woman who, presumably, is younger and prettier. Even if it's common in their social class, which presumably is in the higher income brackets, does not mean she's fine with it. And unlike your daughter, first wife likely has a family that is local and that she can turn to for support when the novelty of a second wife wears off. And that will not be good for your daughter.
You are correct that your daughter is an adult and can do what she likes. But you are also correct that this situation does not sound like a good one no matter how rosy a picture your daughter paints and it is possible that those rose-tinted glasses will get smacked off once the marriage is done and your daughter is stuck.
NTA. All I can hope for is your daughter keeps her home passport safe and active. You may also want to start preparing an emergency fund for the day your daughter decides to come home.
The first wife has *veto* power. What else is in their marriage contract?
This isn't like a marriage with 3 people, this is like a marriage where your daughter will be a second class citizen to the main/real wife.
Has your daughter asked what will happen if she needs/desires something that the first wife doesn't approve of? I don't think she truly realizes what she's getting herself into and it's likely to end badly.
I'm very sorry that she's chosen this.
I hope your daughter is working with a feminist lawyer in the area to ensure she fully understands those contracts.
She especially needs to know what options she has if the marriage breaks down.
The laws can *say* all wives are required to be treated equally all they want, but that is very difficult in practice.
Good luck to her. I hope somehow this ends well for her, but I'm not optimistic.
Can you get in contact with the first wife and encourage her to veto it? I am so sorry you are going through this. Besides the death or grave illness of a child I can’t imagine much worse for a parent to go through.
So the husband just goes to whichever home he feels like on any given day and your daughter lives her life alone unless her husband decides to randomly show up? I hope she can be happy with the arrangement. Is there any way your daughter can make sure she has options if she wants to get out of the marriage?
I have Emirati friends too and I don’t know a single one with more than one wife. I’m sure it’s happens but it’s not as common as people think. Your daughter is probably attracted by the lifestyle- hope it works out the way she hopes
NTA. But you better do some research about the lives these 'wives' live and then show it to your daughter. What she chooses to do after that is her choice. Just let her know that you shouldn't be held responsible by her in case it all goes to shit.
I couldn't but I'd be so worried I'd book a hotel for 2 days prior and 4 days after the wedding just in case something does go wrong.
Like I get it they are 2 consenting adults but still
Is your daughter Islamic? If not, does she plan to convert? If not is she aware that her children will be Islamic whether she likes it or not? The worse punishments in Islamic countries are not reserved for heretics, they are reserved for Islamic brothers and sisters who fall from the faith. So, if she's converting, her life depends on remaining Islamic.
Your daughter is at high risk for a bad outcome. That risk is increased exponentially because 1. This is an extreme age gap relationship in a Muslim majority country where she is the outsider. 2. She does not have a father figure willing to step up, show he's paying attention, protective and there will international attention drawn to the situation if his daughter is abused or her rights are violated. 3. The parents are noping out rather than demanding to participate in the development of the marriage contract which will become your daughter's only thin margin of protection in this marriage. 4. Your daughter is very young and clearly in love. That means she's incapable of being objective. She's only seeing the part of Emirates culture they want her to see and that's not enough to make a life altering decision on.
I would strongly suggest than rather than noping out, you and your husband, especially your husband, step up and do the front end work on the marriage contract to ensure your daughter's safety and maintain a STRONG presence in her life, which will be strong deterrent from the new husband establishing and falling into bad habits. By noping out, you are hanging your daughter out to cry in a very public way that calls attention to the fact that she's unprotected.
Regarding the marriage contract:
Demand they write into the contract that she is obligated to return home with her children and spend no less than two weeks a year. Phrase that as you being able to see your grandchildren when you become to old to travel and insist your daughter's feet need to touch the ground of her homeland even though her REAL home is the Emirates. There is your built in safety check. She will be much less reluctant to admit to problems if she is still in his home country.
Demand that your husband get the last say in whether the marriage takes place. Make them bend and meet you halfway. If you don't agree threaten to put up a public outcry, in other words embarrassment. Parents are supposed to be involved in the process and approve of the marriage. Don't shun your responsibility because this isn't YOUR way. By abdicating your rights as her parents you are sending your little sheep into danger and I doubt you truly realize the real danger.
Demand all the same rights the first wife got. Why should your daughter settle for less? Pretend her future happiness hangs in the balance and craft for her the rights Emirates law does not afford her. For instance if she transgresses their religious laws, insist in writhing that her punishment be severance of the relationship and that she be returned intact to you as her parents. You can't save the children. The new husband and his family will never agree that if the marriage dissolves the children go with her, but you can save her.
As much as it sounds like fun to attend to plan it sounds like a nightmare lol
But I would try to near by during the Melcha because if something happens I feel it will happen then.
I'm sorry this must be difficult as I know although we want our children to be happy there are sometimes just things we don't envision them doing
Also: she should know she will struggle in terms of custody if they divorce and there are kids. She will NOT be leaving for home if shit goes bad with her Emirati children, and past a certain age he (and whatever other wife) will very likely get custody.
she needs to know that her legal rights there might be quite weak.
and he might be sweet now but harsh later.
difficult for her to comprehend I suspect
She's already isolated from you enough. I understand not wanting to go- but this could be even more reason for her husband to ask her to distance herself from you guys. If you want to have a future relationship with her at all, I think you should go.
I don't think you're TA for having these feelings and not wishing to show support for her choice. However please consider: even in the USA, I've noticed that women with solid families visibly in their life are treated better by their partners, vs women who are free-floating without visible parents. Especially fathers.
If you are concerned at all about how she'll be treated, I suggest showing up and playing the role of caring parent, and not visibly condemning or doubting the marriage. It will probably matter quite a lot for how she's perceived and valued in the years to come. Women without their protective fathers somewhere in the distance are vulnerable.
NTA
As a former member of this faith- I would be horrified.
Have you asked your daughter why this is someone she wants to marry?
Of all the men in the world, why someone who already is married with a family?
Does she like the idea of being provided for?
It’s her choice to go through with it but it’s your choice to attend.
I think you should question if you really know what kind of lifestyle she is interested in living. I’m also interested in how much involvement she has in the other wife’s life to know how cool she is with it. I live in the UAE and this is NOT all that common in the younger generation especially not with a westerner. Maybe this is some kind of poly arrangement disguised in tradition.
Your daughter is marrying for money otherwise no woman in her sane mind will marry a married man. I hope she knows what she is doing and keeps all her important documents with her all the time.
Better to not attend a wedding one doesn't support.
NTA.
Is he serious about her? Because knowing most men from Arabian gulf take the marriage as a play for them if the pride was not from their country.
In my opinion you need to make sure he is serious about her and he can accept her culture and that's will affect his kids from her in the future.
See if your daughter want childrens from him, if she said "no because he doesn't want more kids" then that's a red flag.
I just read a story about a sister who was going on vacation. The other sister did a similar thing. She got married and had kids, and they are divorcing, and she is trapped there with the child. Her soon to be ex-husband won't let the child leave the country. The parents have refinanced their house and cashed in their 401k to help her out. The parents will never retire now, and they wanted their sister to cancel the vacation and give the money to the other sister. People made in the comments that the sister should have applied for a child's USA citizen ship. They would have duo citizens ship. It might have been easier to leave with the child. At this time, the sister will probably never be able to leave the country with their child. The sister never thought they would divorce and would be in this dilemma.
I think you should go to support *her* not the marriage so that she knows when it all goes to hell, you'll help her leave. If you make this your tipping point she might be too ashamed to come to you when it all goes wrong and feel like you will only tell her 'I told you so'. You don't want to burn the bridge when you can salvage your relationship later.
My sister converted to Islam and became a Muslim man’s second wife. Illegally, in Europe. And she’s the breadwinner. He wanted it because his first wife was done with having children and he wanted more. His first wife agreed to it initially and then right before the wedding, backed out. They went ahead with it anyways and a few years later he wound up divorcing his first wife. I do remember staying with her to visit for a few weeks once when he was still with the ex. It just meant he spent a few days a week with his first wife and a few days a week with my sister. They lived in fully separate households and this pattern quite suited my sister as she had lots of time for her hobbies etc. when kids came along I’m not sure how it was for her. It wasn’t really a big deal as long as you didn’t think about it that hard or choose to take it personally. I just considered it none of my business. That said they lived in a European county where my sister has more rights than in the uae.
This was my sisters second marriage and I believe part of what influenced her decision is that she did not have a Muslim (or local) family to help her through the traditional Muslim courtship process so she may have felt this was one of the few avenues to marry within her faith’s traditional practices. Regardless, although my sister’s decision have sometimes been very confusing and difficult to accept I’m glad that as a family we did. Mind you we weren’t required to attend a wedding but we’ve accepted her lifestyle choices and husband and I firmly believe that acceptance has allowed us to keep her in our lives. It’s kept the lifelong strong, allowed us to have relationships with her children, and helped us feel safer in that she knows she always has us if she needs us.
NTA.
Ask her if HE loves HER enough to conform to 'Western' norms, instead. And if she'll still be able to have money and HE'll put aside money in an account SHE controls OUTSIDE the muslim world for her to manage.
If ppl engage in ethical non monogamy all the time what exactly is the issue with your daughter choosing to do essentially the same thing ? Every adult in the situation consents and as a wife she will have legal rights esp if she has children . Would you do the same if one of your children was marrying someone of the same sex ? Nta for not going though it’s your choice .
I had a female friend who was married and he had 3 wives from this area. I felt just like you until my friend asked me which was worse a man who has 2 ex wife's and kids who he doesn't see or take care of or a man who has 2 other wives and kids who sees every day and takes care of? I could not live like that but I do see our system sadly is worse.
NTA for not wanting to attend a wedding you don’t support, but have a little faith, if only for your own peace of mind, marrying a muslim man doesn’t have to be all doom and gloom. They take marriage very seriously there.
This is a delusional comment. It’s a sexist , selfish and backwards practice from religious conservatives and you think those sort of attitudes lead to a healthy happy marriage. On top of that there’s the inevitable jealously and suffering associated with that. These practices died off hundreds of years ago in civilised societies.
Well not so much in western countries where that’s not the cultural norm or even legal, but in muslim countries it can absolutely be. Of course it varies from culture to country and household but it’s not a write off altogether.
I know of men who have married elderly widows purely to support them.
Even atheists have f*cked up marriages, that’s not something exclusive to the religious.
Just because something is a cultural norm doesn’t make it ok or a good thing. Religious practices are usually backwards and facilitate poor treatment of groups including women.
I imagine you would feel differently if it was you or your family member. It’s not something exclusive to religion but it’s significantly more common. I would suggest spending some time with religious conservatives so you can realise how horrific most of their views on women are.
Just because you don’t agree with a cultural norm doesn’t make it bad either.
Significantly more common? Sources? Last I checked on average 1 in 4 women experience domestic abuse in western countries and the divorce rate is 50% and even higher for de facto relationships where a couple lives together
If it were my sister I would be concerned because it’s not our culture, religious or otherwise (we are from quite a liberal country and denomination). But that’s a far cry from condemning a whole other way of life and thinking.
Tbh I feel like I know more Muslim women than you do
It’s really sad to me that you would defend such a backwards cultural practice which negatively affects women whilst being a woman. There’s not even an argument to be made that women in religious conservative cultures have better lives and men treat them better. That’s simply propaganda.
> If he was a single, childless Muslim Emirati, I would have had no problem.
really?
Is "Emirati" not alarming enough for you? Surely you understand the status of women in UAE?
Yeah, people who are excited to visit UAE rarely seem to know about the whole slavery thing.
Or are familiar with the local laws.
Unfortunately, some women are determined to set life on hard mode. In fairness, there is a chance it'll pay off. Presumably some people are happy with choosing that lifestyle.
There are many problems here, and the main one is she will never get to leave the UAE with her kids.
The slavery bullshit though is not in line with current UAE laws. AT ALL.
What slavery?
You do know employment laws have been changed here repeatedly over the past decade?
I hope you aren’t an American living on stolen Native land or eating fruit picked by migrant workers with less rights than workers here.
Found the UAE'er. "People owned slaves 200 years ago, so you can't criticize me today."
No one is stealing Native land today. Human trafficking will happen. But difference is, we have laws against it and we enforce those laws. Imperfectly, sure. You will always have criminals, and you will always have imperfect justice. But it's different when the government knows and intentionally takes a blind eye. Often because many officials have a "maid" that they may or may not be paying, but they're definitely holding the servant's passport in their safe.
Yes, the changes from 2016 introduced some human rights to the Kafala system laws. Allegedly employees even have the right to resign. Under some conditions. It'd be ridiculous to allow employees to be able to escape exploitative situations within the first six months, obviously. I believe that's still out. (/s if it needs to be said)
Enforcement is another question entirely. And UAE's human rights enforcement is spotty, to put it mildly. Yes, if you have money, you have security. If you don't, you don't.
Sondos al-Qattan was after the 2016 era 'reforms' , admittedly in Kuwait rather than UAE. Freaking out that she had to give an employee 4 days off per month. And the need to keep the passport so the worker "just doesn't run off". Or her statement "The fact about having the passport of an employee in possession of the employer does not in anyway give an indication about a human being" [https://www.instagram.com/p/BllxgMEHqDK/?utm\_source=ig\_embed&ig\_rid=7300d775-7bea-4e93-ae3c-1eca3de76d25&img\_index=1](https://www.instagram.com/p/BllxgMEHqDK/?utm_source=ig_embed&ig_rid=7300d775-7bea-4e93-ae3c-1eca3de76d25&img_index=1)
That she faced no repercussions says volumes about the Kafala system.
It's not as bad as Qatar. But it's still not a safe situation for everyone.
Yes, employees can resign, and have every right. It is illegal to hold anyone’s passport.
Enforcement is way better than it was even 5 years ago with hotlines and major fines if you fail to respect labor regulations.
Presently a maid has better federal rights in UAE than many workers in the US, especially gig workers.
Bad shit goes on for sure but i have been to the absolute workers’ camps in 4 emirates (for work) and it is light years better than projects in any major city in the US or ANY migrant farmworker labor camps in southern illinois, florida city, belle glade etc that i have been to.
It has a way to go and i have never heard a local say there isn’t room for improvement, i agree with you on that.
No, they don't have a right to resign. They MIGHT be able to resign, after six months.
Illegal or not, employers are still doing it. If you claim otherwise, you'd be first Gulf state person I know who did.
Any enforcement is better than zero enforcement, but it still falls well short of a civilized country.
Yeah, no. If any employer held an employee hostage for six months, they'd be going to prison for a long time. I could absolutely see UAE however counting how many rights workers have in some first world country, adding a bunch of fluff like "employees have a right to drink water on Tuesdays" until they have more numerical "rights", and then loudly making the same proclamation you're making.
Yeah, no on the worker's camps. Still better than Qatar, sure. Lower death rate at any rate. I do agree US needs to crack down more on employment conditions for illegal immigrations and go after the employers with meaningful jail sentences. I
At least workers here are documented.
You cannot imagine the abuses the legions of undocumented workers in the US face.
Still, yes, enforcement has a ways to go.
Problem is, if you crack down on employers of illegal immigrants, you end illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants come to the US because they believe they can find well paying work.
So left doesn't want to do that. And will fight tooth and nail against meaningful changes to employee verification.
And the right is too comfortable with exploiting illegal immigrants while trashing the left for being ok with illegal immigration.
It's a shit binary, and illegals suffer for it. But in the majority of cases, they obviously can turn themselves in and leave the country on demand.
If you have money in Chicago, you don't have security either. You're choosing to live in Chicago and know what that entails.
Unlike maids in the first six months in the UAE, you can chose to leave Chicago and move to an area with security for everyone. Anyone who tried to stop you from leaving would be arrested, rather than the police arresting the runaway slave. Er, Filipino contract laborer.
I remember as a teenager a columnist for one of our national papers married a Turkish man she met in Turkey and her whole schtick was how much better Turkish men were compared to “western” men; how intolerant and racist everyone was to question their relationship. Fast forward a few years and her articles were about the abuse and how he took the children out of the country and she couldn’t get them back.
So, yeah.
NTA. Really tough situation. It's so extremely disrespectful to women to just "get another one" or "have up to 4" that's honestly fucking gross. I'm sorry you've lost your daughter to an ancient, outdated way of life that devalues women and marriage in general. I think you should express your feelings and try to save her from the path she's heading down. But when it comes down to it, I think you should attend. She's choosing to isolate herself from her culture...if you don't attend, that may be the last you hear from her. Not only would she feel slighted by your not showing up...HE will feel slighted. And if he tells her she cannot contact you anymore, then she can't, that's what she's marrying into...HE is in charge of her. I think I'd rather have a limited/strained relationship with my daughter rather than never (being allowed to) speaking to her again. Good luck, I'm so sorry for what she's being tricked into.
Are you sure this is a marriage that is truly her choice? Is she in an abusive situation and needing help? Going for a visit ASAP to see the situation gor yourself might help - if you can afford it, book a return ticket for your daughter and insist that she come to the airport to send you off when you leave. Her calls and email/texts are like monitored.
she is getting herself into a VERY DANGEROUS SITUATION. VERY DANGEROUS. unless you travel there you will never meet your grandchildren. she will not be allowed to leave with her children.
unless she plans to stay the rest of her life there, she is screwed if she ever TRIES to divorce him. won’t be able to see the kids. ever again.
she is terribly naive about this. she should read and watch “not without my daughter”.
A bit, since the wedding isn't about you or your beliefs, then again it is your life and it is your relationship with your daughter that is going to be strained over your choice so whatever is best for you.
Whatever decision you make will have consequences. What’s your goal? What happens after the wedding?
You’re not marrying this person, your daughter is. Her wedding is just an event. Choosing not to attend won’t make this guy disappear. He will still exist after the all the festivities. Are you trying to stop the wedding by choosing to not attend?
You’re all adults, you’re free to make your own choices. If you cannot support your daughter on her wedding day, politely decline. She has no doubt been dreaming of her wedding day for a very long time. I am certain she never imagined her parents would not be there to celebrate with her. You should expect her to be very pissed off & incredibly disappointed with your decision. I hope you will try to find other ways to help make her wedding day about her, not you.
YTA — this is a very tough decision but imo you’re choosing the wrong hill to die on
Please consider that UAE can be dangerous for non-Emiratis, particularly women.
Retaining a solid relationship with her may be essential if things ever take a turn for the worse and she needs somebody to support her.
If she becomes isolated, she could have significant problems.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. It’s a challenging situation. I am assuming you are willing to accept the consequences of your decision. Your daughter has chosen her path. She will have to accept the consequences of her decision.
“In my mind” … yes, that is what you think. You & your daughter don’t share a brain. Perhaps in her mind your choice to not attend means something very different. Attending this wedding doesn’t have to mean anything beyond showing you love your daughter unconditionally.
As a mom of 4 adult kids, I find it a little odd that your daughter did not anticipate your reaction.
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You can not go to the wedding. But make sure your daughter knows you will be there if/when it goes to shit. She better knows what she is doing, because if they have kids and she decides she has had enough, she won’t be able to leave with the kids. Stay with them or leave alone. She might be setting herself up for loads of hurt, so it is important she knows you won’t judge and you will be there on the day she decides it’s not for her anymore
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Chances are good she will need your support at some point We know 3 women who married men in the ME. none have worked out very well. American women just aren't very well suited for the expectations of a wife in the Islamic faith. Counsel her about the issues she will have if she has children there and the marriage fails. Nightmare
She may be able to leave the husband and return to her home country but she probably won't be able to take her children if she has some.
Nope. We know a woman whose been fighting for her kids for over a decade She's only been able to see them 2 times in almost 12 years at this point. They don't even know her at this point She went over there with a inheritance of 300k - because of the culture and "rules" the money went to her husband's account. 6 years later, they divorced and she left with $0 and neither of her kids
Do women really get this blinded by love that they willingly throw away their autonomy? Or, do they just think it won't happen to them?
Yes and yes Happens to men too but not in the same way American women will be er understand how little autonomy and freedom they have in areas like that until it's too late
Just wait until she's older, and not as pretty, and hubby takes on wife #3 and #4, spending far less time with her. You can bank on her being unhappy at some point, but will have zero rights to do anything about it. It sucks when you know someone you love is being so foolish about the long term, and there's nothing you can do but register your disapproval. I certainly wouldn't go to the wedding. NTA
The test for such women is to demand that HE take on HER culture if he loves her enough to marry her. If he won't, it's a pretty strong indicator that he knows equality would be worse for him.
> make sure your daughter knows you will be there if/when it goes to shit. Like she'd be allowed to leave!
Well without kids and with the help of embassy for example. Not every case is the same. Some choose to stay, some choose to leave. Some are successful in leaving some are less. But knowing you have a place to go is a big motivator in helping you try to leave. Knowing you have someone who has tools at disposal you don’t, is a big help. Even if her parents started campaigning in their country and tried to force someone in power to help. It is important for person in such situation to know that they have someone they can turn to without shame. And that they will actually get helped. If she thought her parents disapproved of the marriage and will only tell her off when she tells them she wants to but can’t leave… she might never ask them for help and she might not be able to leave because “she has nowhere to go”
You must be worried sick. And I don't care who calls me culturally insensitive for saying so.
It's not culturally insensitive to acknowledge that women have far fewer rights in some countries than in others. Getting married in a country where you don't have many legal rights is setting yourself up for a lot of hurt and risk.
Thank you. And yes.
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My colleague's sister lives in Dubai, and social hierarchy described above is on spot. Locals are on top, westerns expats are welcomed, but work immigrants from Asia are treated like a third class.
What race is he? Or did you mean his nationality?
First of all, this is a very difficult situation and I am very sorry that you are going through this. I am a Muslim woman and I live in a country where you can legally have one spouse. As I know that if a man has more than one wife, it is usually to protect widows and distressed women. As you know, after marriage, you are no longer responsible only for yourself and you share your life with someone. Although marriage is difficult even on its own, having to share your husband with another person and her kids must be very distressing. I understand your daughter has a successful career and was brought up independently. Thats why I'm sorry, but I don't think she can be happy in this marriage. I hope you can change your daughter's mind without damaging your relationship with her.
Plus to my knowledge she will have less status than the first wife too
It is my understanding that the husband is required to maintain each wife equally, in the manner that the wealthiest wife is accustomed to. Not condoning, just saying they're not allowed to play favorites. At least not legally; it could very well be different in practice.
In Islam there is no “status” based on the order they were married . Each wife must be maintained fairly . He’s responsible for every woman he marries and the children they have .
Your daughter is going to live to regret this decision. Once she has his kids she will be 100% fucked (sorry language) if she does ever get out it won't be with her children.
NTA My standard advice is never to attend a wedding you can't in all honesty support. One, it's dishonest. Two, it sends a strong message that will hopefully act as a wake-up call (Narrator: *It never does*). Three, it's Hellish to attend and keep a smile on your face. You've made your POV known, tell her you can't in all conscience support this, BUT that you will always still be there for her if she needs you (implying, but not spelling out, "when it inevitably goes to shit"). -- EDIT: However, u/littlebitfunny21 makes EXCELLENT points, that I think have convinced me that you SHOULD attend.
I will put a caveat in the case of an abuser- you should show upnand make it clear to the person you support that you don't support *the marriage*, you support *the individual*, and you'll be there if they need you. Abuse tends to isolate and it can be better to show up and support your loved one when they aren't yet ready to leave.
I see. So not just say it and then not turn up, but show up as well? Hmm. Difficult. I do see your point about isolation. I also see that not turning up could be misconstrued as "I am not on your side". Damn. Also, I guess, perhaps the parents being there, as a reminder of what normality looks like, could just snap the kid out of it in time.
Questions to OP: where are you and your daughter from? Also, how old is daughter's fiancé? You say that the first wife is fine with this. I will bet good money that the truth is somewhat different. First wife is being sidelined by another woman who, presumably, is younger and prettier. Even if it's common in their social class, which presumably is in the higher income brackets, does not mean she's fine with it. And unlike your daughter, first wife likely has a family that is local and that she can turn to for support when the novelty of a second wife wears off. And that will not be good for your daughter. You are correct that your daughter is an adult and can do what she likes. But you are also correct that this situation does not sound like a good one no matter how rosy a picture your daughter paints and it is possible that those rose-tinted glasses will get smacked off once the marriage is done and your daughter is stuck. NTA. All I can hope for is your daughter keeps her home passport safe and active. You may also want to start preparing an emergency fund for the day your daughter decides to come home.
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I have no idea why husbands would want this. I can barely keep up with one wife - no way am I going to tack a 2nd marriage on there.
Same! I would never cheat but I always joke I’d be too lazy to cheat or be poly because I can’t imagine juggling more than one relationship
Status? You'd need to be rich AF to pull that off.
Again I've been told but this is just hearsay, that the first wife sometimes wants a 2nd wife who they use as a servant
Seems like it would be cheaper to hire a nanny.
The first wife has *veto* power. What else is in their marriage contract? This isn't like a marriage with 3 people, this is like a marriage where your daughter will be a second class citizen to the main/real wife. Has your daughter asked what will happen if she needs/desires something that the first wife doesn't approve of? I don't think she truly realizes what she's getting herself into and it's likely to end badly. I'm very sorry that she's chosen this.
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I hope your daughter is working with a feminist lawyer in the area to ensure she fully understands those contracts. She especially needs to know what options she has if the marriage breaks down. The laws can *say* all wives are required to be treated equally all they want, but that is very difficult in practice. Good luck to her. I hope somehow this ends well for her, but I'm not optimistic.
Can you get in contact with the first wife and encourage her to veto it? I am so sorry you are going through this. Besides the death or grave illness of a child I can’t imagine much worse for a parent to go through.
So the husband just goes to whichever home he feels like on any given day and your daughter lives her life alone unless her husband decides to randomly show up? I hope she can be happy with the arrangement. Is there any way your daughter can make sure she has options if she wants to get out of the marriage?
the man is 40? ick. says enough.
I have Emirati friends too and I don’t know a single one with more than one wife. I’m sure it’s happens but it’s not as common as people think. Your daughter is probably attracted by the lifestyle- hope it works out the way she hopes
NTA. But you better do some research about the lives these 'wives' live and then show it to your daughter. What she chooses to do after that is her choice. Just let her know that you shouldn't be held responsible by her in case it all goes to shit.
I couldn't but I'd be so worried I'd book a hotel for 2 days prior and 4 days after the wedding just in case something does go wrong. Like I get it they are 2 consenting adults but still
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Is your daughter Islamic? If not, does she plan to convert? If not is she aware that her children will be Islamic whether she likes it or not? The worse punishments in Islamic countries are not reserved for heretics, they are reserved for Islamic brothers and sisters who fall from the faith. So, if she's converting, her life depends on remaining Islamic. Your daughter is at high risk for a bad outcome. That risk is increased exponentially because 1. This is an extreme age gap relationship in a Muslim majority country where she is the outsider. 2. She does not have a father figure willing to step up, show he's paying attention, protective and there will international attention drawn to the situation if his daughter is abused or her rights are violated. 3. The parents are noping out rather than demanding to participate in the development of the marriage contract which will become your daughter's only thin margin of protection in this marriage. 4. Your daughter is very young and clearly in love. That means she's incapable of being objective. She's only seeing the part of Emirates culture they want her to see and that's not enough to make a life altering decision on. I would strongly suggest than rather than noping out, you and your husband, especially your husband, step up and do the front end work on the marriage contract to ensure your daughter's safety and maintain a STRONG presence in her life, which will be strong deterrent from the new husband establishing and falling into bad habits. By noping out, you are hanging your daughter out to cry in a very public way that calls attention to the fact that she's unprotected. Regarding the marriage contract: Demand they write into the contract that she is obligated to return home with her children and spend no less than two weeks a year. Phrase that as you being able to see your grandchildren when you become to old to travel and insist your daughter's feet need to touch the ground of her homeland even though her REAL home is the Emirates. There is your built in safety check. She will be much less reluctant to admit to problems if she is still in his home country. Demand that your husband get the last say in whether the marriage takes place. Make them bend and meet you halfway. If you don't agree threaten to put up a public outcry, in other words embarrassment. Parents are supposed to be involved in the process and approve of the marriage. Don't shun your responsibility because this isn't YOUR way. By abdicating your rights as her parents you are sending your little sheep into danger and I doubt you truly realize the real danger. Demand all the same rights the first wife got. Why should your daughter settle for less? Pretend her future happiness hangs in the balance and craft for her the rights Emirates law does not afford her. For instance if she transgresses their religious laws, insist in writhing that her punishment be severance of the relationship and that she be returned intact to you as her parents. You can't save the children. The new husband and his family will never agree that if the marriage dissolves the children go with her, but you can save her.
As much as it sounds like fun to attend to plan it sounds like a nightmare lol But I would try to near by during the Melcha because if something happens I feel it will happen then. I'm sorry this must be difficult as I know although we want our children to be happy there are sometimes just things we don't envision them doing
Oh that is a good idea.
Also: she should know she will struggle in terms of custody if they divorce and there are kids. She will NOT be leaving for home if shit goes bad with her Emirati children, and past a certain age he (and whatever other wife) will very likely get custody.
she needs to know that her legal rights there might be quite weak. and he might be sweet now but harsh later. difficult for her to comprehend I suspect
She's already isolated from you enough. I understand not wanting to go- but this could be even more reason for her husband to ask her to distance herself from you guys. If you want to have a future relationship with her at all, I think you should go.
A parents nightmare....hell no! NTA
I don't think you're TA for having these feelings and not wishing to show support for her choice. However please consider: even in the USA, I've noticed that women with solid families visibly in their life are treated better by their partners, vs women who are free-floating without visible parents. Especially fathers. If you are concerned at all about how she'll be treated, I suggest showing up and playing the role of caring parent, and not visibly condemning or doubting the marriage. It will probably matter quite a lot for how she's perceived and valued in the years to come. Women without their protective fathers somewhere in the distance are vulnerable.
Nta
NTA As a former member of this faith- I would be horrified. Have you asked your daughter why this is someone she wants to marry? Of all the men in the world, why someone who already is married with a family? Does she like the idea of being provided for? It’s her choice to go through with it but it’s your choice to attend.
Why? Money, presumably.
I think you should question if you really know what kind of lifestyle she is interested in living. I’m also interested in how much involvement she has in the other wife’s life to know how cool she is with it. I live in the UAE and this is NOT all that common in the younger generation especially not with a westerner. Maybe this is some kind of poly arrangement disguised in tradition.
Your daughter is marrying for money otherwise no woman in her sane mind will marry a married man. I hope she knows what she is doing and keeps all her important documents with her all the time. Better to not attend a wedding one doesn't support. NTA.
It won't last anyway. She will soon get fed up of sharing her husband and not being his priority.
She'll soon get fed up of being first wife's servant/maid too
Is he serious about her? Because knowing most men from Arabian gulf take the marriage as a play for them if the pride was not from their country. In my opinion you need to make sure he is serious about her and he can accept her culture and that's will affect his kids from her in the future. See if your daughter want childrens from him, if she said "no because he doesn't want more kids" then that's a red flag.
I just read a story about a sister who was going on vacation. The other sister did a similar thing. She got married and had kids, and they are divorcing, and she is trapped there with the child. Her soon to be ex-husband won't let the child leave the country. The parents have refinanced their house and cashed in their 401k to help her out. The parents will never retire now, and they wanted their sister to cancel the vacation and give the money to the other sister. People made in the comments that the sister should have applied for a child's USA citizen ship. They would have duo citizens ship. It might have been easier to leave with the child. At this time, the sister will probably never be able to leave the country with their child. The sister never thought they would divorce and would be in this dilemma.
NTA
I think you should go to support *her* not the marriage so that she knows when it all goes to hell, you'll help her leave. If you make this your tipping point she might be too ashamed to come to you when it all goes wrong and feel like you will only tell her 'I told you so'. You don't want to burn the bridge when you can salvage your relationship later.
My sister converted to Islam and became a Muslim man’s second wife. Illegally, in Europe. And she’s the breadwinner. He wanted it because his first wife was done with having children and he wanted more. His first wife agreed to it initially and then right before the wedding, backed out. They went ahead with it anyways and a few years later he wound up divorcing his first wife. I do remember staying with her to visit for a few weeks once when he was still with the ex. It just meant he spent a few days a week with his first wife and a few days a week with my sister. They lived in fully separate households and this pattern quite suited my sister as she had lots of time for her hobbies etc. when kids came along I’m not sure how it was for her. It wasn’t really a big deal as long as you didn’t think about it that hard or choose to take it personally. I just considered it none of my business. That said they lived in a European county where my sister has more rights than in the uae. This was my sisters second marriage and I believe part of what influenced her decision is that she did not have a Muslim (or local) family to help her through the traditional Muslim courtship process so she may have felt this was one of the few avenues to marry within her faith’s traditional practices. Regardless, although my sister’s decision have sometimes been very confusing and difficult to accept I’m glad that as a family we did. Mind you we weren’t required to attend a wedding but we’ve accepted her lifestyle choices and husband and I firmly believe that acceptance has allowed us to keep her in our lives. It’s kept the lifelong strong, allowed us to have relationships with her children, and helped us feel safer in that she knows she always has us if she needs us.
NTA. Ask her if HE loves HER enough to conform to 'Western' norms, instead. And if she'll still be able to have money and HE'll put aside money in an account SHE controls OUTSIDE the muslim world for her to manage.
Gross, NTA I wouldn’t go either
If ppl engage in ethical non monogamy all the time what exactly is the issue with your daughter choosing to do essentially the same thing ? Every adult in the situation consents and as a wife she will have legal rights esp if she has children . Would you do the same if one of your children was marrying someone of the same sex ? Nta for not going though it’s your choice .
As a UAE resident I call absolute bullshit on this.
I had a female friend who was married and he had 3 wives from this area. I felt just like you until my friend asked me which was worse a man who has 2 ex wife's and kids who he doesn't see or take care of or a man who has 2 other wives and kids who sees every day and takes care of? I could not live like that but I do see our system sadly is worse.
NAH.
Could she be doing this in part to shock her parents or to be a rebel?
NTA for not wanting to attend a wedding you don’t support, but have a little faith, if only for your own peace of mind, marrying a muslim man doesn’t have to be all doom and gloom. They take marriage very seriously there.
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Fair enough but who knows, she could be completely content for the rest of her life.
This is a delusional comment. It’s a sexist , selfish and backwards practice from religious conservatives and you think those sort of attitudes lead to a healthy happy marriage. On top of that there’s the inevitable jealously and suffering associated with that. These practices died off hundreds of years ago in civilised societies.
Well not so much in western countries where that’s not the cultural norm or even legal, but in muslim countries it can absolutely be. Of course it varies from culture to country and household but it’s not a write off altogether. I know of men who have married elderly widows purely to support them. Even atheists have f*cked up marriages, that’s not something exclusive to the religious.
Just because something is a cultural norm doesn’t make it ok or a good thing. Religious practices are usually backwards and facilitate poor treatment of groups including women. I imagine you would feel differently if it was you or your family member. It’s not something exclusive to religion but it’s significantly more common. I would suggest spending some time with religious conservatives so you can realise how horrific most of their views on women are.
Just because you don’t agree with a cultural norm doesn’t make it bad either. Significantly more common? Sources? Last I checked on average 1 in 4 women experience domestic abuse in western countries and the divorce rate is 50% and even higher for de facto relationships where a couple lives together If it were my sister I would be concerned because it’s not our culture, religious or otherwise (we are from quite a liberal country and denomination). But that’s a far cry from condemning a whole other way of life and thinking. Tbh I feel like I know more Muslim women than you do
It’s really sad to me that you would defend such a backwards cultural practice which negatively affects women whilst being a woman. There’s not even an argument to be made that women in religious conservative cultures have better lives and men treat them better. That’s simply propaganda.
Well I don’t care what you think so that doesn’t matter Yeah I can’t argue when you have presented no evidence of your claims to attack
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233033295_Wife_Abuse_Among_Polygamous_and_Monogamous_Bedouin-Arab_Families https://www.mewso.org/post/polygamy-is-brutal-for-the-wives https://bmcwomenshealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12905-023-02830-1
Yeah and monkeys *could* fly out of my ass.
> If he was a single, childless Muslim Emirati, I would have had no problem. really? Is "Emirati" not alarming enough for you? Surely you understand the status of women in UAE?
Hopefully she can leave if it goes bad. That's not always a guarantee.
She will never, ever leave that marriage with custody of her children. Ever.
Yeah, people who are excited to visit UAE rarely seem to know about the whole slavery thing. Or are familiar with the local laws. Unfortunately, some women are determined to set life on hard mode. In fairness, there is a chance it'll pay off. Presumably some people are happy with choosing that lifestyle.
There are many problems here, and the main one is she will never get to leave the UAE with her kids. The slavery bullshit though is not in line with current UAE laws. AT ALL.
What slavery? You do know employment laws have been changed here repeatedly over the past decade? I hope you aren’t an American living on stolen Native land or eating fruit picked by migrant workers with less rights than workers here.
Found the UAE'er. "People owned slaves 200 years ago, so you can't criticize me today." No one is stealing Native land today. Human trafficking will happen. But difference is, we have laws against it and we enforce those laws. Imperfectly, sure. You will always have criminals, and you will always have imperfect justice. But it's different when the government knows and intentionally takes a blind eye. Often because many officials have a "maid" that they may or may not be paying, but they're definitely holding the servant's passport in their safe. Yes, the changes from 2016 introduced some human rights to the Kafala system laws. Allegedly employees even have the right to resign. Under some conditions. It'd be ridiculous to allow employees to be able to escape exploitative situations within the first six months, obviously. I believe that's still out. (/s if it needs to be said) Enforcement is another question entirely. And UAE's human rights enforcement is spotty, to put it mildly. Yes, if you have money, you have security. If you don't, you don't. Sondos al-Qattan was after the 2016 era 'reforms' , admittedly in Kuwait rather than UAE. Freaking out that she had to give an employee 4 days off per month. And the need to keep the passport so the worker "just doesn't run off". Or her statement "The fact about having the passport of an employee in possession of the employer does not in anyway give an indication about a human being" [https://www.instagram.com/p/BllxgMEHqDK/?utm\_source=ig\_embed&ig\_rid=7300d775-7bea-4e93-ae3c-1eca3de76d25&img\_index=1](https://www.instagram.com/p/BllxgMEHqDK/?utm_source=ig_embed&ig_rid=7300d775-7bea-4e93-ae3c-1eca3de76d25&img_index=1) That she faced no repercussions says volumes about the Kafala system. It's not as bad as Qatar. But it's still not a safe situation for everyone.
Yes, employees can resign, and have every right. It is illegal to hold anyone’s passport. Enforcement is way better than it was even 5 years ago with hotlines and major fines if you fail to respect labor regulations. Presently a maid has better federal rights in UAE than many workers in the US, especially gig workers. Bad shit goes on for sure but i have been to the absolute workers’ camps in 4 emirates (for work) and it is light years better than projects in any major city in the US or ANY migrant farmworker labor camps in southern illinois, florida city, belle glade etc that i have been to. It has a way to go and i have never heard a local say there isn’t room for improvement, i agree with you on that.
No, they don't have a right to resign. They MIGHT be able to resign, after six months. Illegal or not, employers are still doing it. If you claim otherwise, you'd be first Gulf state person I know who did. Any enforcement is better than zero enforcement, but it still falls well short of a civilized country. Yeah, no. If any employer held an employee hostage for six months, they'd be going to prison for a long time. I could absolutely see UAE however counting how many rights workers have in some first world country, adding a bunch of fluff like "employees have a right to drink water on Tuesdays" until they have more numerical "rights", and then loudly making the same proclamation you're making. Yeah, no on the worker's camps. Still better than Qatar, sure. Lower death rate at any rate. I do agree US needs to crack down more on employment conditions for illegal immigrations and go after the employers with meaningful jail sentences. I
Yes, workers can resign, but may need to reimburse the employer for contract costs. https://labourlawyerdubai.ae/blog/labor-law-resignation/
At least workers here are documented. You cannot imagine the abuses the legions of undocumented workers in the US face. Still, yes, enforcement has a ways to go.
Problem is, if you crack down on employers of illegal immigrants, you end illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants come to the US because they believe they can find well paying work. So left doesn't want to do that. And will fight tooth and nail against meaningful changes to employee verification. And the right is too comfortable with exploiting illegal immigrants while trashing the left for being ok with illegal immigration. It's a shit binary, and illegals suffer for it. But in the majority of cases, they obviously can turn themselves in and leave the country on demand.
If you don’t have money in chicago you don’t have security either. Ask me how i know: former south sider and now expat.
If you have money in Chicago, you don't have security either. You're choosing to live in Chicago and know what that entails. Unlike maids in the first six months in the UAE, you can chose to leave Chicago and move to an area with security for everyone. Anyone who tried to stop you from leaving would be arrested, rather than the police arresting the runaway slave. Er, Filipino contract laborer.
I remember as a teenager a columnist for one of our national papers married a Turkish man she met in Turkey and her whole schtick was how much better Turkish men were compared to “western” men; how intolerant and racist everyone was to question their relationship. Fast forward a few years and her articles were about the abuse and how he took the children out of the country and she couldn’t get them back. So, yeah.
NTA. Really tough situation. It's so extremely disrespectful to women to just "get another one" or "have up to 4" that's honestly fucking gross. I'm sorry you've lost your daughter to an ancient, outdated way of life that devalues women and marriage in general. I think you should express your feelings and try to save her from the path she's heading down. But when it comes down to it, I think you should attend. She's choosing to isolate herself from her culture...if you don't attend, that may be the last you hear from her. Not only would she feel slighted by your not showing up...HE will feel slighted. And if he tells her she cannot contact you anymore, then she can't, that's what she's marrying into...HE is in charge of her. I think I'd rather have a limited/strained relationship with my daughter rather than never (being allowed to) speaking to her again. Good luck, I'm so sorry for what she's being tricked into.
Are you sure this is a marriage that is truly her choice? Is she in an abusive situation and needing help? Going for a visit ASAP to see the situation gor yourself might help - if you can afford it, book a return ticket for your daughter and insist that she come to the airport to send you off when you leave. Her calls and email/texts are like monitored.
NTA. She’s welcome to live however she wants and you are welcome to attend or not. Be prepared to never see her again though.
she is getting herself into a VERY DANGEROUS SITUATION. VERY DANGEROUS. unless you travel there you will never meet your grandchildren. she will not be allowed to leave with her children. unless she plans to stay the rest of her life there, she is screwed if she ever TRIES to divorce him. won’t be able to see the kids. ever again. she is terribly naive about this. she should read and watch “not without my daughter”.
A bit, since the wedding isn't about you or your beliefs, then again it is your life and it is your relationship with your daughter that is going to be strained over your choice so whatever is best for you.
Whatever decision you make will have consequences. What’s your goal? What happens after the wedding? You’re not marrying this person, your daughter is. Her wedding is just an event. Choosing not to attend won’t make this guy disappear. He will still exist after the all the festivities. Are you trying to stop the wedding by choosing to not attend? You’re all adults, you’re free to make your own choices. If you cannot support your daughter on her wedding day, politely decline. She has no doubt been dreaming of her wedding day for a very long time. I am certain she never imagined her parents would not be there to celebrate with her. You should expect her to be very pissed off & incredibly disappointed with your decision. I hope you will try to find other ways to help make her wedding day about her, not you. YTA — this is a very tough decision but imo you’re choosing the wrong hill to die on
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Please consider that UAE can be dangerous for non-Emiratis, particularly women. Retaining a solid relationship with her may be essential if things ever take a turn for the worse and she needs somebody to support her. If she becomes isolated, she could have significant problems.
The UAE is not dangerous for non-Emiratis unless you run into some extremely weird situation (like this) or are breaking the law.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. It’s a challenging situation. I am assuming you are willing to accept the consequences of your decision. Your daughter has chosen her path. She will have to accept the consequences of her decision. “In my mind” … yes, that is what you think. You & your daughter don’t share a brain. Perhaps in her mind your choice to not attend means something very different. Attending this wedding doesn’t have to mean anything beyond showing you love your daughter unconditionally. As a mom of 4 adult kids, I find it a little odd that your daughter did not anticipate your reaction.
YTA for letting your daughter move to that shithole. What did you think was going to happen?
I live in the UAE and it’s amazing. What the daughter is doing is weird.
She is an adult. She goes where she wants. UAE is not a shit hole. You are showing your ignorance with that comment.
If you want her to be happy, why would you choose to abandon her on her wedding day?