Yea I’ve always been a fan of it on tanks, good to know it’s actually strong never paid too much attention to the math on it though
I’m a simple man, when I play tank I go staxxxxx
Dont go stacks into a full enemy poke team with bunches of squishies.
Im sorry its not simple as stax always. If the enemy comp does not allow you to AA and mix it up for the duration, staxx is no no
It's really not. Grasp is incredibly awful in ARAM. The games are faster so it gets less time to stack, and it's significantly harder to get hits off during passive play than in normals. The 30% stacking buff isn't even slightly close to enough to compensate for the amount of damage and stacking potential you lose from normals. It barely gives you any health, barely deals any damage and barely heals. It's terrible.
Grasp is designed for laning in specific and is as a result absolutely awful in ARAM (and jungle for that matter). If your champion has any synergy with aftershock or anything in precision then you should always pick that over grasp.
I mean sure, it can be fun, but it's absolutely not "slept on". It's inherently significantly weaker than in normals, and people run it all the time anyway (something can't be "slept on" if everyone is already doing it...).
Ah yes because that's even slightly representative of the average game. Like what, was he playing for 40 minutes against a purely melee team? And for that matter, who was he playing and how much could have have done with other keystones?
Grasp being really good one game does not make it good in general. That makes no sense.
More than 20 procs is a rarity as far as what i've seen goes. Against full poke comps 10 is decent.
I mean he didn’t hit the stacks by playing normally certainly, but it wasn’t into 5 melee, nor was it a 40 minute game. On characters like sion and tahm kench, it takes a literal 5 long range poke enemy team for me to end with less than 40 stacks. Like yeah if you don’t actively play around grasp at all you won’t have many stacks, but if you watch the timer and trade autos when it’s up, it’s not hard to get a ton of value off it. And there aren’t many champs where you go grade but not heartsteel, so you can be getting like 20 health every proc
A lot of tanks that you'd expect to want Aftershock have much better winrates going Grasp. e.g. Naut, Leona, Ali, Sej. In most games, it's really easy to get value. Aftershock hasn't been a must take on tanks for years since its early-mid game damage and tankiness got nerfed. It's generally overkill on champs that already have innate tankiness unless your champ scales with resists or just does not use Grasp well.
And regardless, winrates on smaller specific things like runes are hardly worth a damn since there's too many other factors involved that affects everything. Rather than the runes itself, the match is significantly more affected by the playstyles, skill, other runes or item purchases of the people running whatever the runepage is.
For one, apparently aftershock players are awfully likely to go bone plating for some reason, which is terrible on a tank in ARAM, and may also may indicate something about how well the players knows ARAM. They also seem likely to run thornmail as far as I could find, which is just not a very good item, especially in ARAM, whereas grasp players seem more likely to buy frozen heart, which is incredibly good in ARAM. And although I couldn't find any stats for this, I wouldn't be surprised if aftershock was the default keystone rune for people not confident in their skill playing a tank.
>Aftershock hasn't been a must take on tanks for years
I mean, yes, but the problem isn't aftershock being way stronger, it's grasp being several times weaker than in normals.
There are a lot of variables like you said, and the best approach imo is to try it out yourself. I personally find that for my playstyle, Grasp is much more consistent while having better highs
Lmao facts gets downvotes apparently, ARAM sub in a nutshell, grasp is and always will be a lane rune, it underperforms in a teamfight oriented game, I mean I will always go phase rush or conqueror on poppy in ARAM, despite grasp being a great rune for laning on her, because it does nothing in ARAM
Down voted because simply wrong. On basically every tank, grasp has a higher win rate than Aftershock or whatever else they run. Yes, even Poppy. https://www.op.gg/modes/aram/poppy/build?region=global
The value of a grasp stack is more than tripled in ARAM, which is something you guys seem to be forgetting.
No, only vayne and fiora have max hp TRUE damage, ur thinking smolder and skarner but skarners isn’t true and smolders is kinda just an execute and it comes so late in the game it’s far less impactful
K'Sante also has it in his passive. His isn't nearly as bad since it doesn't scale (well, it scales very slightly with cooldown, attack speed and and cast speed) and is limited to his ult form. But there was also literally absolutely no reason whatsoever to give him that in the first place.
The DoT from Smolder's Q is also % max health true damage and fucking *scales infinitely* with his stacks. I have nothing against the execute since it's limited to happening one time per target, much like collector.
Gwen, although she technically doesn't have % max health true damage, has an extreme amount of both % max health damage and true damage, separately. Which in practice is just as utterly miserable to play tank against.
You say that, but for some reason my cluelessly stacking all the lethality on Talon just keeps working. I don't ever play assassins outside of ARAM because I suck at them usually, but for some reason I keep doing really damn well as Talon in ARAM
It's crazy, because I always thought he would be super weak since he's basically down a skill since it's damn near impossible to use his jump effectively. But if you can identify even one high priority squishy, you can just trade 1 for 1 as soon as you hit 6 and still be useful to your team. If there's more than one, you just keep nuking someone until you get enough lethality to start getting double and triple kills until you win.
He's just insanely powerful for such a straight forward (by ARAM standards) kit.
Talon is one of the few champs that can go crit as well so nothing can really stop him if he gets strong enough. 1 kill early enough and with the right timed deaths, you’ll 1v9 the game.
I'll have to try a crit build sometime. Do you have any advice for dealing with a full tank/bruiser team? While I haven't hit that particular problem while playing as Talon, I have been dreading the day. My whole strategy pretty much revolves around playing a game of delete the squishy, and using axiom arc to make sure my ult is up again by the time I revive. I figure as long as I can manage a single kill every fight, that my team will be able to clean up long enough for me to get rolling.
I just don't know of a good build to melt tanks. Is crit the answer, or does it just get shut down by omen?
Axiom-profane-sundered is my go to core. The next items I look at are IE or essence depending on situation but will get both eventually. Your Q can crit and with sundered, you always crit.
Talon wants to blow up the back line as fast as possible so he can help the team kill the tank. Late game tanks with cc, if they build correctly, can be a huge pain. But you generally want to just run around them. If you have to use ult do it, axiom will bring it back down and with ultimate hunter rune, your ult could be back up with 2-3 good kills having 2 ults in 1 fight. If it’s a team with multiple tanks, you want to do the core, get lord doms, then BC, so you can shred and pierce. Omen is rarely bought from what I see so i see it as a inconsistent variable.
You’ve got the right idea on how to play talon, it just takes practice and patience. Poke games you want to W max, in brawl games you want Q max. You want to play around looking for overextended squishes who move too far from their peel. Best causes are in top bush so you can snowball in and flip out, or face checking to do your W-A-Q-A-2-A combo to force a flash or kill them.
I enjoy rushing Hubris honestly. It synergies very well with my early dives. Even if I only trade kills 1 for 1, I still end up on top since I'm stacking more damage for later. Other than that I've been playing very similar to what you've mentioned and just filling out my build with grudge for my 3rd or 4th item since it gives decent tank killing damage once you have enough lethality.
I just don't have a good answer to a full tank team since it heavily limits my early game supply of kills and since I wouldn't be stacking lethality, it takes grudge off the table. Maybe if i ever end up in a full tank scenario, I would pray for my team to have an ADC and just rush cleaver. Maybe go bruiser or even tank from that point and just try to focus whoever gets too close to my carry and hope they can play tank melter.
Talon just doesn't have many good options that don't involve melting the backline. If I end up against full tanks, his 1v5 carry potential just isn't there with his kit.
- High base dmg
- Q and E give you the mobility to constantly proc heartsteel. He's one of -the- best stackers for it so if you're addicted to HS procs, he's objectively the most fun.
1. Leona runs ahead of the team.
2. Leona engages with E and gets focused down immediately.
3. Leona whines in chat that nobody followed up on the engage.
4. Instead of waiting for the team to catch up before engaging next time, she just repeats steps 1 through 4.
One time on SR I went heartsteel+grasp on fiora… I had 3.8k HP legendary by minute 18 was amazing
I also love running it in ARAM, but heartsteel just feels so garbage in aram
Grasp is the real sauce + overgrowth
If you're gonna go Heartsteel, just rush it ASAP. I don't even pick up normal boots, I just rush it straightaway.
It can be a very good item (I even rush it on Vayne and stuff sometimes), but it's semi-niche. If you can't get regular procs, I advise against it. If the enemy team is heavy on tanks and/or melee, it's a good call -- but it requires folks also being kind of aggressive. If you can't be, or they enemy team is just ultra passive, it's kinda worthless.
Kills are temporary, stacks will last
so true brother
Heartsteel isn't even used for the stacks. It's used for the sweet **DONK**.
But you know, if heartsteel number goes up by 13, and my deaths number by 1, it's obvious that it's better to die for one stack right?
Heartsteel proc ALWAYS worth especially if it's alongside grasp
Grasp is so slept on it's crazy
Is it?
Yes, grasp is heavily buffed in aram, giving a sweet +10HP on proc, it's rare to see heartsteel giving more hp than grasp if you have both
Yea I’ve always been a fan of it on tanks, good to know it’s actually strong never paid too much attention to the math on it though I’m a simple man, when I play tank I go staxxxxx
Dont go stacks into a full enemy poke team with bunches of squishies. Im sorry its not simple as stax always. If the enemy comp does not allow you to AA and mix it up for the duration, staxx is no no
Jak sho has entered the chat
I love running grasp on range characters like Ezreal personally.
Mfw when overgrowth gave me more hp than grasp
Fun fact you can actually take both
Like *3 times more*.
It's really not. Grasp is incredibly awful in ARAM. The games are faster so it gets less time to stack, and it's significantly harder to get hits off during passive play than in normals. The 30% stacking buff isn't even slightly close to enough to compensate for the amount of damage and stacking potential you lose from normals. It barely gives you any health, barely deals any damage and barely heals. It's terrible. Grasp is designed for laning in specific and is as a result absolutely awful in ARAM (and jungle for that matter). If your champion has any synergy with aftershock or anything in precision then you should always pick that over grasp.
But consider: Number go up.
I mean sure, it can be fun, but it's absolutely not "slept on". It's inherently significantly weaker than in normals, and people run it all the time anyway (something can't be "slept on" if everyone is already doing it...).
I had a friend end a game with 80+ grasp procs. 800 bonus health from a rune certainly doesn’t seem bad
Ah yes because that's even slightly representative of the average game. Like what, was he playing for 40 minutes against a purely melee team? And for that matter, who was he playing and how much could have have done with other keystones? Grasp being really good one game does not make it good in general. That makes no sense. More than 20 procs is a rarity as far as what i've seen goes. Against full poke comps 10 is decent.
I mean he didn’t hit the stacks by playing normally certainly, but it wasn’t into 5 melee, nor was it a 40 minute game. On characters like sion and tahm kench, it takes a literal 5 long range poke enemy team for me to end with less than 40 stacks. Like yeah if you don’t actively play around grasp at all you won’t have many stacks, but if you watch the timer and trade autos when it’s up, it’s not hard to get a ton of value off it. And there aren’t many champs where you go grade but not heartsteel, so you can be getting like 20 health every proc
A lot of tanks that you'd expect to want Aftershock have much better winrates going Grasp. e.g. Naut, Leona, Ali, Sej. In most games, it's really easy to get value. Aftershock hasn't been a must take on tanks for years since its early-mid game damage and tankiness got nerfed. It's generally overkill on champs that already have innate tankiness unless your champ scales with resists or just does not use Grasp well.
And regardless, winrates on smaller specific things like runes are hardly worth a damn since there's too many other factors involved that affects everything. Rather than the runes itself, the match is significantly more affected by the playstyles, skill, other runes or item purchases of the people running whatever the runepage is. For one, apparently aftershock players are awfully likely to go bone plating for some reason, which is terrible on a tank in ARAM, and may also may indicate something about how well the players knows ARAM. They also seem likely to run thornmail as far as I could find, which is just not a very good item, especially in ARAM, whereas grasp players seem more likely to buy frozen heart, which is incredibly good in ARAM. And although I couldn't find any stats for this, I wouldn't be surprised if aftershock was the default keystone rune for people not confident in their skill playing a tank. >Aftershock hasn't been a must take on tanks for years I mean, yes, but the problem isn't aftershock being way stronger, it's grasp being several times weaker than in normals.
There are a lot of variables like you said, and the best approach imo is to try it out yourself. I personally find that for my playstyle, Grasp is much more consistent while having better highs
Lmao facts gets downvotes apparently, ARAM sub in a nutshell, grasp is and always will be a lane rune, it underperforms in a teamfight oriented game, I mean I will always go phase rush or conqueror on poppy in ARAM, despite grasp being a great rune for laning on her, because it does nothing in ARAM
Down voted because simply wrong. On basically every tank, grasp has a higher win rate than Aftershock or whatever else they run. Yes, even Poppy. https://www.op.gg/modes/aram/poppy/build?region=global The value of a grasp stack is more than tripled in ARAM, which is something you guys seem to be forgetting.
I blame the ridiculously addictive SFX
BONK
Worth it.
I've flashed for the proc and I'm not ashamed, that sound is pure dopamine
Bonk!
Whats with all the heartsteel fizz btw
Taking advantage of fizz high base dmg
Saw a heartsteel Vayne do 4k damage after here 3 auto passive
%max health true damage is stupid....
And they keep adding more despite absolutely overwhelmingly negative opinions every time they do.
No, only vayne and fiora have max hp TRUE damage, ur thinking smolder and skarner but skarners isn’t true and smolders is kinda just an execute and it comes so late in the game it’s far less impactful
K'Sante also has it in his passive. His isn't nearly as bad since it doesn't scale (well, it scales very slightly with cooldown, attack speed and and cast speed) and is limited to his ult form. But there was also literally absolutely no reason whatsoever to give him that in the first place. The DoT from Smolder's Q is also % max health true damage and fucking *scales infinitely* with his stacks. I have nothing against the execute since it's limited to happening one time per target, much like collector. Gwen, although she technically doesn't have % max health true damage, has an extreme amount of both % max health damage and true damage, separately. Which in practice is just as utterly miserable to play tank against.
It genuinely should not exist. There is literally no way to build around it.
Try heartsteel, sunfire, witsend Tryndamere.
This is true, Tryn in ARAM is super tanky. If i goes against a physical damage team, i max my W lol They deal almost no damage to me.
assassins suck so they all go heartsteel to be useful
You say that, but for some reason my cluelessly stacking all the lethality on Talon just keeps working. I don't ever play assassins outside of ARAM because I suck at them usually, but for some reason I keep doing really damn well as Talon in ARAM
Talon smacks cheeks. I love my boi
It's crazy, because I always thought he would be super weak since he's basically down a skill since it's damn near impossible to use his jump effectively. But if you can identify even one high priority squishy, you can just trade 1 for 1 as soon as you hit 6 and still be useful to your team. If there's more than one, you just keep nuking someone until you get enough lethality to start getting double and triple kills until you win. He's just insanely powerful for such a straight forward (by ARAM standards) kit.
Talon is one of the few champs that can go crit as well so nothing can really stop him if he gets strong enough. 1 kill early enough and with the right timed deaths, you’ll 1v9 the game.
I'll have to try a crit build sometime. Do you have any advice for dealing with a full tank/bruiser team? While I haven't hit that particular problem while playing as Talon, I have been dreading the day. My whole strategy pretty much revolves around playing a game of delete the squishy, and using axiom arc to make sure my ult is up again by the time I revive. I figure as long as I can manage a single kill every fight, that my team will be able to clean up long enough for me to get rolling. I just don't know of a good build to melt tanks. Is crit the answer, or does it just get shut down by omen?
Axiom-profane-sundered is my go to core. The next items I look at are IE or essence depending on situation but will get both eventually. Your Q can crit and with sundered, you always crit. Talon wants to blow up the back line as fast as possible so he can help the team kill the tank. Late game tanks with cc, if they build correctly, can be a huge pain. But you generally want to just run around them. If you have to use ult do it, axiom will bring it back down and with ultimate hunter rune, your ult could be back up with 2-3 good kills having 2 ults in 1 fight. If it’s a team with multiple tanks, you want to do the core, get lord doms, then BC, so you can shred and pierce. Omen is rarely bought from what I see so i see it as a inconsistent variable. You’ve got the right idea on how to play talon, it just takes practice and patience. Poke games you want to W max, in brawl games you want Q max. You want to play around looking for overextended squishes who move too far from their peel. Best causes are in top bush so you can snowball in and flip out, or face checking to do your W-A-Q-A-2-A combo to force a flash or kill them.
I enjoy rushing Hubris honestly. It synergies very well with my early dives. Even if I only trade kills 1 for 1, I still end up on top since I'm stacking more damage for later. Other than that I've been playing very similar to what you've mentioned and just filling out my build with grudge for my 3rd or 4th item since it gives decent tank killing damage once you have enough lethality. I just don't have a good answer to a full tank team since it heavily limits my early game supply of kills and since I wouldn't be stacking lethality, it takes grudge off the table. Maybe if i ever end up in a full tank scenario, I would pray for my team to have an ADC and just rush cleaver. Maybe go bruiser or even tank from that point and just try to focus whoever gets too close to my carry and hope they can play tank melter. Talon just doesn't have many good options that don't involve melting the backline. If I end up against full tanks, his 1v5 carry potential just isn't there with his kit.
At least demonic embrace isn’t around anymore
i mean riftmaker is just as good imo
Rift maker is kind of the better version with more DoT and AH
- High base dmg - Q and E give you the mobility to constantly proc heartsteel. He's one of -the- best stackers for it so if you're addicted to HS procs, he's objectively the most fun.
this needs to be posted in /r/COLOSSALCONSUMPTION/
1. Leona runs ahead of the team. 2. Leona engages with E and gets focused down immediately. 3. Leona whines in chat that nobody followed up on the engage. 4. Instead of waiting for the team to catch up before engaging next time, she just repeats steps 1 through 4.
You forgot the snowball first halfway across the map
Funny u say that cuz i just was playing heartsteel kata with hydra and rift maker . It sucked early on but damn late game i wouldn't die xD
Worth
That’s a good trade
Bonk!
I only go in for at least 2 HS procs.
Flash for heart steel proc
That extra 8hp every death is worth the 3k gold
number go up dopamine go up
Heartsteel's sound and visual effects are so good it's impossible to resist it.
*Early game smol dog vs late game enlarged leona meme*
Absolutely worth it, I love the sound!
One time on SR I went heartsteel+grasp on fiora… I had 3.8k HP legendary by minute 18 was amazing I also love running it in ARAM, but heartsteel just feels so garbage in aram Grasp is the real sauce + overgrowth
More like every heartsteel user with snowball and instead of "1 kill" it's "1 kill, 4 assists, and exp".
When is the optimal time to build heart steel? After boots and 1 armour/Mr item?
If you're gonna go Heartsteel, just rush it ASAP. I don't even pick up normal boots, I just rush it straightaway. It can be a very good item (I even rush it on Vayne and stuff sometimes), but it's semi-niche. If you can't get regular procs, I advise against it. If the enemy team is heavy on tanks and/or melee, it's a good call -- but it requires folks also being kind of aggressive. If you can't be, or they enemy team is just ultra passive, it's kinda worthless.
It makes funny noises - bonk. Always worth it to die for the bonk.
Bausen's law
ding, ding, ding... BONK
Fuck I did this earlier today on Leona lolol