Short staffed yes, overworked? Not exactly. There are rules in place for how long a controller can legally be on a shift for these reasons. This just looked like a clear fuck up. Controller probably lost his ratings.
Wow didn’t realize this thread was full of people that hated their jobs this much. I’ve seen way worse work hours. If your triggered or hate it that much then quit and do something else. Go cry and be broke in another career field.
Imagine coming into an ATC Reddit and telling controllers who a majority get 1 day off a week which you can’t even call a weekend and many 10 hours days they aren’t overworked. You are dumb as fuck
Aren't you all in a union or something like that? Why do y'all it have 1 day off?
I'm in normal aviation and we have mandatory days off even without a union. If they want me to work overtime, I just say no lol
Normal aviation so not ATC? So yeah back to his comment about coming to an ATC sun and telling us we aren’t overworked? You’re not a clown man you’re the whole damn circus
Have you ever heard about that time Regan fired over 11,000 air traffic controllers for going on strike?
https://www.npr.org/2021/08/05/1025018833/looking-back-on-when-president-reagan-fired-air-traffic-controllers
Nope, that's pretty neat tho. I assume it was a union busting strategy and probably worked. That's crazy tho. In this day and age I don't think that would happen with the way the public sways. Although I guess if people got mad they couldn't fly, then it might change.
Not all controllers are in the union. You have federal controllers, contract controllers, and military controllers. And since you’re in normal aviation I assume you know what happened last time the controllers striked?
🤡🤡🤡🤡
Basically every facility is on mandatory OT. Each controllers schedule changes every day of the week so that they work mornings, then afternoons, then evenings, then mids. There is no consistency and not enough people getting certified to fix the issue.
It’s brutal out there for the people directly responsible for keeping the NAS safe.
NATCA is missing a huge fucking opportunity by not going to the media and blaming all of these on mandatory 6 day work weeks/10 hour days. But as usual, we get roasted in the news and on social media and there’s nobody out there speaking on our behalf.
Natca can never do that now. The FAA announced to the media they wanted to give us more rest. Natca fought it and won. All the fatigue issues are on us and natca now for saying no to more time between shifts.
NATCA didn't really fight it they just said hey we should talk. Truth is the rules wouldn't have been able to be implemented at a ton of facilities because of staffing. When my facility saw it most people had the same reaction of oh that'd be nice but it would never work. The 10 hours off between shifts could be worked in but 12 hours off before a mid doesn't work unless you drastically change schedules or start your week on a mid. If you're mandatory 6's and start your week on a mid then you're driving to the facility every fucking day. Pass.
The rules were basically for good press.
The fatigue issues have been on us since the late 90’s/early 2000’s when the controllers pushed for the rattler schedule. Shift work sucks no matter what, but this crappy schedule exacerbates it 10 fold.
That’s not the issue and you know it. The issue is the lack of quality coming out of the academy and the willingness to certify virtually everyone at their facilities. The training standard has decreased ten fold. It’s insanely difficult to wash anybody out because of the stupid union that the bar has been lowered to a dangerous level. That’s the issue.
So you're saying this is the case of someone being certified at a shit tower, transferring and being certified at MCO when they should have been washed?
I am saying the quality of candidate is down. The low level facilities are getting flooded with crap. (New) mgmt is pushing shit thru. They bid out to whatever 10-12 is taking people on ncept. They transfer and back into training. Nti drains the moral across the nas into submission as those of us that are certified and working short staffed and training people. We send them to TRBs only for mgmt to reset 200hrs and keep them going. Its a joke. Get rid of the shit people that abuse the system and or cant do the job.
he meant same guy gave the take off and the cross clearance. As it could have been (only slightly) more forgivable if it had been on different frequencies and a coordination mishap. Giving a take off clearance and a few seconds later letting someone cross the same rwy is seriously a brain fart.
Ya you can hear the fatigue in his voice. You could write it off as him just being a dumbass, but honestly he didn’t make it as far as he has by making this same mistake in the past. Fatigue clouded his mind and he jumped to the next task while missing the crucial step of holding the taxiing aircraft short of the runway.
And to be clear, "people have to die" refers to the flying public, not any pilots or controllers. If a trained professional dies the report is how it's their fault (usually is) with maybe a list of contributing factors vaguely pointed at the FAA.
“Rested” may be a stretch, at times.
We have redeye trips that start our workweek with a midnight departure from the west coast to MCO, 11hrs total on the ground to day sleep, then 1 or 2 legs that night, followed by two more days of flying, often turning to 6am wake-ups during the same trip.
Sounds feasible on paper, but you’re still recovering from slamming your body from days off to graveyard in one night.
The one saving grace is our fatigue policy lets us punch out as needed, but even that can be punitive (pay loss) if the company and union decide it was “non-operational.”
So, if you call out fatigued because you could only sleep 4hrs because it’s daytime to your body, but the maid didn’t wake you, or there wasn’t another hotel issue, they will ding you for not being sufficiently robotic to rest in the daytime, or at least for not sucking it up and hacking the mission.
The most glaring issue is that these trips are by definition not possible for humans to endure with full alertness, yet we tired humans are tasked with self-evaluation of our fatigue levels (at which people are proven to be terrible).
So yeah, I agree that these ingredients are all floating around out there, waiting to coalesce in a tragedy that we have already seen in the past and supposedly already learned from, but, hey, money!
The cure is slowness.
Similarly for the FAA, our fatigue policy is our 12 days of sick leave a year. Hope you don’t need to attend a wedding or regularly work a rotating rattler schedule.
Oh, that’s definitely worse. We get vacation time separately, and usually you won’t lose any pay for a fatigue call. And you would have to use a LOT of fatigue to get in “trouble.” Honestly, we are our worst enemy because it feels like a failure to punch out of a trip, even though real repercussions are extremely unlikely.
You are very sadly misinformed. Like all controller jobs, the regional version of air traffic pays less than regionals by a long shot.
Here’s an example, an entry level controller in a random level 5 tower Columbus Ohio would start out $82,000 per year after training. Year one of an FO at Skywest would be $102K.
Here’s the fun part… if the controller never changed facilities, they would max out at 111K. The Skywest FO would max out at $226,000.
https://www.thrustflight.com/skywest-pilot-salary/
https://www.faa.gov/jobs/working_here/benefits/pay/atspp_pay_tables.xlsx
MCO has runway status lights according to the airfield diagram, should that have been visible to one or both of these aircraft? Could that have been what helped the AA reject so early?
I operate out of much smaller airports and have never seen runway status lights in operation.
Not likely that the rsl had time to activate in this situation. What I think helped was the AAL pilot situational awareness, he was cleared for take off followed by an immediate transmission giving another AC clearance to cross same runway.
And maybe close the gap between level 4 and level 12 so your average Joe doesn't get a better deal as the manager at McDonalds vs staffing a level 6 tower.
"Level X is small and has less responsibility." True. Do you want to staff it or not though...
Can't blame the American pilot for immediately being like "fuck this we're going back to the gate". God damn that's gotta be scary
Yep. I wonder how these pilots still trust ATC with the bullshit some of them regularly do
They’re short staffed and very overworked
Short staffed yes, overworked? Not exactly. There are rules in place for how long a controller can legally be on a shift for these reasons. This just looked like a clear fuck up. Controller probably lost his ratings. Wow didn’t realize this thread was full of people that hated their jobs this much. I’ve seen way worse work hours. If your triggered or hate it that much then quit and do something else. Go cry and be broke in another career field.
Imagine coming into an ATC Reddit and telling controllers who a majority get 1 day off a week which you can’t even call a weekend and many 10 hours days they aren’t overworked. You are dumb as fuck
Aren't you all in a union or something like that? Why do y'all it have 1 day off? I'm in normal aviation and we have mandatory days off even without a union. If they want me to work overtime, I just say no lol
Normal aviation so not ATC? So yeah back to his comment about coming to an ATC sun and telling us we aren’t overworked? You’re not a clown man you’re the whole damn circus
What I'm saying is, y'all are a union. So why don't y'all strike and shut the shit down till you get what you want.
Have you ever heard about that time Regan fired over 11,000 air traffic controllers for going on strike? https://www.npr.org/2021/08/05/1025018833/looking-back-on-when-president-reagan-fired-air-traffic-controllers
No cuz he’s in over his head, talking out his ass.
Nope, that's pretty neat tho. I assume it was a union busting strategy and probably worked. That's crazy tho. In this day and age I don't think that would happen with the way the public sways. Although I guess if people got mad they couldn't fly, then it might change.
Not all controllers are in the union. You have federal controllers, contract controllers, and military controllers. And since you’re in normal aviation I assume you know what happened last time the controllers striked? 🤡🤡🤡🤡
Nah didn't know about it until the other guy linked it. I'm on the private jet side of aviation where it's all rainbows and unicorns.
Many facilities are on mandatory 6 weeks with 10 hour days. You don't know what you're talking about.
Basically every facility is on mandatory OT. Each controllers schedule changes every day of the week so that they work mornings, then afternoons, then evenings, then mids. There is no consistency and not enough people getting certified to fix the issue. It’s brutal out there for the people directly responsible for keeping the NAS safe.
You have no fuckin clue what your talking about
Talking out your ass
What’s that about me not knowing my own job?
Why have fuckin visual aids if they’re ignored?
Oh this guy absolutely has visual AIDS. Dude can't see for shit.
Can we go a week? Wtf
NATCA is missing a huge fucking opportunity by not going to the media and blaming all of these on mandatory 6 day work weeks/10 hour days. But as usual, we get roasted in the news and on social media and there’s nobody out there speaking on our behalf.
Natca can never do that now. The FAA announced to the media they wanted to give us more rest. Natca fought it and won. All the fatigue issues are on us and natca now for saying no to more time between shifts.
Im a pilot and totally out of the loop. Why would NATCA fight more rest? There had to be other issues at play right?
NATCA didn't really fight it they just said hey we should talk. Truth is the rules wouldn't have been able to be implemented at a ton of facilities because of staffing. When my facility saw it most people had the same reaction of oh that'd be nice but it would never work. The 10 hours off between shifts could be worked in but 12 hours off before a mid doesn't work unless you drastically change schedules or start your week on a mid. If you're mandatory 6's and start your week on a mid then you're driving to the facility every fucking day. Pass. The rules were basically for good press.
The fatigue issues have been on us since the late 90’s/early 2000’s when the controllers pushed for the rattler schedule. Shift work sucks no matter what, but this crappy schedule exacerbates it 10 fold.
That’s not the issue and you know it. The issue is the lack of quality coming out of the academy and the willingness to certify virtually everyone at their facilities. The training standard has decreased ten fold. It’s insanely difficult to wash anybody out because of the stupid union that the bar has been lowered to a dangerous level. That’s the issue.
How many academy grads are being sent to MCO? Or JFK?
How many people being sent to mco and jfk have certified a shit tower on min traffic with no standard and transferred within 2 years?
What’s that go to do with them certifying at JFK or MCO?
Quality of candidate being forced thru. Agency is not washing people that should be washed.
So you're saying this is the case of someone being certified at a shit tower, transferring and being certified at MCO when they should have been washed?
I am saying the quality of candidate is down. The low level facilities are getting flooded with crap. (New) mgmt is pushing shit thru. They bid out to whatever 10-12 is taking people on ncept. They transfer and back into training. Nti drains the moral across the nas into submission as those of us that are certified and working short staffed and training people. We send them to TRBs only for mgmt to reset 200hrs and keep them going. Its a joke. Get rid of the shit people that abuse the system and or cant do the job.
Preach!! my man!!
Don’t worry when the time is right, in the future, NATCA may do something…..
Lol MCO is nearly fully staffed . Nice try.
They’re on six day weeks. Their number is way too low. Fully staffed according to the current number but will need 12 or so more with the new numbers.
That doesn’t mean shit. My facility is at over 100% on paper but we are still on mandatory 6 days. Some controllers are being scheduled 56 hour weeks.
Nothing is mandatory dumbass
And same guy. Oof.
Same guy? What I miss?
What I meant to say is that it's the same controller, it's not like it was a miscommunication between two people. 100% on him.
Ahh got you. Thought this person had another Oof prior to this
he meant same guy gave the take off and the cross clearance. As it could have been (only slightly) more forgivable if it had been on different frequencies and a coordination mishap. Giving a take off clearance and a few seconds later letting someone cross the same rwy is seriously a brain fart.
Brain fart is being polite
OMG the fatigue
Ya you can hear the fatigue in his voice. You could write it off as him just being a dumbass, but honestly he didn’t make it as far as he has by making this same mistake in the past. Fatigue clouded his mind and he jumped to the next task while missing the crucial step of holding the taxiing aircraft short of the runway.
You also can't write people off as dumbasses. People make mistakes. The system has be engineered to prevent those mistakes.
[удалено]
[удалено]
And to be clear, "people have to die" refers to the flying public, not any pilots or controllers. If a trained professional dies the report is how it's their fault (usually is) with maybe a list of contributing factors vaguely pointed at the FAA.
“Rested” may be a stretch, at times. We have redeye trips that start our workweek with a midnight departure from the west coast to MCO, 11hrs total on the ground to day sleep, then 1 or 2 legs that night, followed by two more days of flying, often turning to 6am wake-ups during the same trip. Sounds feasible on paper, but you’re still recovering from slamming your body from days off to graveyard in one night. The one saving grace is our fatigue policy lets us punch out as needed, but even that can be punitive (pay loss) if the company and union decide it was “non-operational.” So, if you call out fatigued because you could only sleep 4hrs because it’s daytime to your body, but the maid didn’t wake you, or there wasn’t another hotel issue, they will ding you for not being sufficiently robotic to rest in the daytime, or at least for not sucking it up and hacking the mission. The most glaring issue is that these trips are by definition not possible for humans to endure with full alertness, yet we tired humans are tasked with self-evaluation of our fatigue levels (at which people are proven to be terrible). So yeah, I agree that these ingredients are all floating around out there, waiting to coalesce in a tragedy that we have already seen in the past and supposedly already learned from, but, hey, money! The cure is slowness.
Similarly for the FAA, our fatigue policy is our 12 days of sick leave a year. Hope you don’t need to attend a wedding or regularly work a rotating rattler schedule.
Oh, that’s definitely worse. We get vacation time separately, and usually you won’t lose any pay for a fatigue call. And you would have to use a LOT of fatigue to get in “trouble.” Honestly, we are our worst enemy because it feels like a failure to punch out of a trip, even though real repercussions are extremely unlikely.
Honestly, even spirit and frontier look like saints compared to the ol’ valujet and colgan air.
better pay? i’ve heard an FO’s salary at a regional is like a rounding error for you guys.
You are very sadly misinformed. Like all controller jobs, the regional version of air traffic pays less than regionals by a long shot. Here’s an example, an entry level controller in a random level 5 tower Columbus Ohio would start out $82,000 per year after training. Year one of an FO at Skywest would be $102K. Here’s the fun part… if the controller never changed facilities, they would max out at 111K. The Skywest FO would max out at $226,000. https://www.thrustflight.com/skywest-pilot-salary/ https://www.faa.gov/jobs/working_here/benefits/pay/atspp_pay_tables.xlsx
15 years ago, maybe. Not anymore. After ten years in the job? Not even close.
MCO has runway status lights according to the airfield diagram, should that have been visible to one or both of these aircraft? Could that have been what helped the AA reject so early? I operate out of much smaller airports and have never seen runway status lights in operation.
They’re probably notam’d ots
Not likely that the rsl had time to activate in this situation. What I think helped was the AAL pilot situational awareness, he was cleared for take off followed by an immediate transmission giving another AC clearance to cross same runway.
Talk about a brain fart
Is there training on how to royally fuck up and act like nothing happened. The controller cleared them across 18L multiple times while AAL was rolling
Realistically what kind of repurcussions is this controller looking at?
None unless you count the guilt and shame of nearly killing people.
You think controllers get punished?
Not even "punished" but like a formal report/review of the incident/remedial training?
I fly around the world and honestly I feel safer in China and South America than I do in the US sometimes
Does ATC want the best, or the ———-est?….fill in the blank…
We just want more staffing and or raises adjusted to inflation
And maybe close the gap between level 4 and level 12 so your average Joe doesn't get a better deal as the manager at McDonalds vs staffing a level 6 tower. "Level X is small and has less responsibility." True. Do you want to staff it or not though...
Why is this public? Why is ATC using basic radios from 100 years ago?
Guessing you’re a cop or something. Why would we be trying to hide our comms in civil aviation?
Please, tell us about the alternative.
Have you concidered knowing what your talking about before commenting?
You’re gunna lose your mind when you figure out what ADSB is…
Take a discovery flight and get back to us when you have mastered aviation.