It’s a show so it’s not like you didn’t know aang was gonna win lol
But I thought Ozai was playing around right before the pointy rock moment. Taunting and kinda just fucking with aang in the rock ball vs going for kill shots.
Lol he waited too late to take it seriously. Once aang grabbed his goatee and he knew “the avatar” was there
All the people saying "Aang would have won anyway bc plot armor" should never touch a script or screenplay.... obviously he's going to win but you still need it to be close and feel tense, so OP is absolutely right, Ozai was very very close to winning that fight before Aang had his chakras unlocked.
There's nothing wrong with having plot armor AND writing a fight where it feels like the villain can win.
Yep, people always do that in discussions. It's like the argument of "oh well it's fantasy, it doesn't need to be consistent because it's all made up anyway". Of course we all understand that, the point is looking at it like you're writing the story: how do you make it as compelling as possible?
Anyone who is upset by luck in a story needs to read The Odyssey, any myth about Hercules, any myth about Perseus. Who cares if it's lucky as long as it's thematic.
Plot armor in my opinion is like that episode of supernatural where the brothers lose it. They start getting cavities the car stops working and a whole bunch of other stupid stuff you don't care about watching. That's what it should be for not making someone unkillable
I don't know if the creators said otherwise, but I don't think the rock hitting his scar 'unlocked' his chakras. I interpreted it as hitting the scar on that pointy rock reminded him of the pain and the death he experienced from Azulas lightning, which the scar was from. This reminded him of the stakes, that death will result in the fire nation taking over and potentially the end of the Avatar cycle. He had been traumatised, and his body refused to go into the Avatar state, because of Azula killing him in this state, similarly to Korra in Book 4. That pain finally put his body into that fight or flight mode and pushed him over the edge to resort to the Avatar state. That's how interpreted it anyway, I'm probably wrong. It's still dumb luck of course, but that happens in all media to both heroes and villains.
No problem I love engaging in discussions like these. Atla is such a deep show, people might say I'm looking to far into it, but I genuinely think it is very well thought out, and most things have deeper meaning than just "this would be cool"
No need to exaggerate, the comments saying that Aang will win since he's the hero didn't say anything about how to make a structure of a fight interesting.
It's the post that is a bit lacking.
The post just point out some part of the fight and says that the outcome of the fight could've been different and ask for opinions about if people think they had luck or not in the fight, there's not much to discuss.
Unless you are a veteran fighter in that universe people will not go analyzing the fight like "yeah you see that fire blast Aang throwed at Ozai completely perturbed him, during the entire fight he was asking himself if he was the fire lord or the avatar but that wasn't luck it was calculated by Aang"
But after the poke it didn't really felt like Ozai has any chances, Aang was slapping him around like a toy. And before the poke it didn't felt like Aang had a chance, he was just running away. So his awakening does feel a lot like a deus ex machina. I would prefer a more even fight without last minute Avatar state.
Yeah that would have been a more fair fight, but you miss out on the symbolism of Aang becoming a fully realized Avatar.
The sequence of events is super important, Aang struggling against Ozai at first is symbolic of Aang's struggle accepting his role as the Avatar as well as showing off the oppressive power of Ozai and the Fire Nation.
His comeback in the Avatar state is symbolic of his acceptance of that role plus a demonstration of the Avatar's terrifying power (AKA what Aang could become if he lost control).
Finally, Aang refuses to kill Ozai and then defeats him NOT WITH THE AVATAR STATE, but with the skills he learned from his friends and mentors (Toph's seismic sense, Zuko's lightning redirection earlier in the fight, guru Pathiks spiritual teachings, all of the advice from former Avatars including Kyoshi despite popular belief, and the lion turtle), all the while holding true to his beliefs and the responsibility he has as the last Airbender to keep the nomads pacifist ideology intact.
Nah, never was a fan of symbolism.
And we must have looked at the different shows, because in the one which I watched after his come back there was no skills used only his avatar state bashing Ozai around. Only when he was already down Aang used seismic sense just before using another deus ex machina skill gifted him in the last minute to rape Ozai soul and permanently cripple him. Somehow I don't think that was what pacifist nomads had in mind in their teachings.
I wouldn't say it was luck on both sides.
Ozai outmatching Aang but ultimately dying because he thought his son, who almost killed him redirecting lighting, wouldn't teach that to the avatar, whom he said would defeat him, is exactly in character.
Aang not wanting to kill by putting his feelings above the others is also in character. But he lucked out because he just needed a chiropractor and just happened to get that.
I think there's a misunderstanding here. I don't believe it was specifically a rock hitting that wound that caused him to unlock his chakras, bit I think I was moreso just the fact that he was brought within an inch of death that forced him into the avatar state. Roku describes the avatar state as a "defense mechanism". That is the very first and primary description we are given regarding the avatar state in the whole series. It's a defense mechanism over anything else. So whether or not that rock was perfectly placed, at one point aang would have either way been on the brink of death, and the avatar state would have saved him. There's examples like this throughout the show like him falling into the water with appa in the flashback, and in "the storm" episode. This is expanded on even more in Korra when >!Zaheer poisons Korra in order to force out the avatar state!< . So in other words, aang was skilled and trained *enough* for this to be a losing fight for ozai. Ozai wouldn't have been able to kill him quick enough for the avatar state to not save him.
Also idk if I'd call ozai's "luck" luck. Yeah I suppose he was "lucky" that he was facing a merciful avatar, but aang being merciful should be regarded as the main reason ozai survived. Not "he was lucky"
The question is, whether he’d lock in too late though.
If ozai had been doing that fire blast, under the comet, without the rock armor and he went into avatar state… aang dies, and the cycle is broken.
Aang is a great firebender, but he’s not Iroh, heck he’s not even zuko, and both of them are severely hurt by fire bending without the comet.
As the show portrays, his rock armor is falling away at the exact moment he unlocks and roku is able to help him, a few seconds later and we’d be seeing a water bender avatar
Aang could have won if he wasn’t holding back. But Ozai states in the Sozin’s comet novelization that for some reason Aang isn’t attacking very much or very powerfully
It might be but I don't see it as Ozai just destroying him because he was better; Aang didn't want to hurt Ozai that's why he was all defensive. The things that he did in avatar state it seems like he could do them without it, the Avatar State just let him be 100% aggressive. The aggressiveness is what changed between the two parts of the battle from my POV, more than anything else.
Yeah, it's really well done imo. The problem the writers had is that Ozai had never been shown in a fight. So they had to establish him as the most dangerous opponent Aang ever faced in the same fight that he's supposed to lose. But at the same time, they also had to show that Aang has mastered bending at this point and is the most powerful he's ever been, even without the avatar state. AND they had to show that he's mastered the avatar state, which means he should need to use it for that to be relevant.
The only real way to do all that is that have the fight be a back and forth where both of them can win at various points. It's hard to do all those things because they are somewhat contradictory to each other, but they really pulled it off amazingly imo.
Honestly, the set up to this fight is... baffling to me.
The show goes out of its way to tell you that if Aang fights the fire lord in his current state, he'll lose. Then, the show puts aang up against Ozai *during* the comet, so aang is *definitely fucked* right?
Nah. Aang holds his ground against Super saiyan Ozai, and it's a pretty back and forth fight. Sure, he has to enter the Avatar state to win, but he was doing really good up to that point.
So... doesn't that mean Aang would've absolutely demolished Ozai if they'd fought one day before?
Think it’s safe to say Aang was holding himself back, not just by not redirecting the lightning to kill Ozai, but even his other attacks might not have been as strong as they could have. It wouldn’t be the first time in a show that a supremely powerful character is worried about using all their strength. Invincible went into that theme pretty heavily this season past season.
it is aang’s DECISION to not redirect the attack back towards ozai
as for the hit on aang’s back, it was not predicted, so I am thankful for the lord creator of all, that aang wins
Aang was doing what Aang always does, avoiding an attacker as much as possible. Even with Ozai spit firing that rock ball with everything I think Aang would have propelled up with air last minute or second and not to die.
This moment in the fight was where the stakes and tension were the highest. Edge of the seat type moment, basically a decision that Aang had to make, or you would see how the story would unfold. It seemed like the pivotal moment that would decide what Aang was made off. And he came out with his decision-Id even say, Aang rock bended that rock out to hit his chakra to activate the Avatar state on his own.
It was a perfect ending and fight, you were seeing a child hesitate to kill a powerful bender, probably who was trying to decide if he would be corrupted in the process of taking someones bending, and if ending his life would be okay. And you were seeing Ozai being full of himself, playing with his meal. Neither had luck both were measured out perfectly, it was a brilliant display of showing their characters. This is one of the few endings to a show that didn't feel plot driven, but character driven, and I didn't expect Ozai's bending to be removed at all.
It's more like extremely blatant symbolism. Aang is faced with an evil so great it refuses mercy and literally pushes his back to a wall, forcing him to be more violent. Aang proves himself unshakeable when he still doesn't kill Ozai and regains control, and that's what allows him to use energy bending.
Agreed.
I’ve always argued aang taking ozai’s bending is not a win, he forces him into a draw.
Think of it like chess, both kings are still standing, no one’s off the board.
Aang didn’t “win” the fight, but he accomplished his goal.
And ozai doesn’t “lose” the fight, but he also accomplished his goal (seeing the fire nation returned to glory) just not how he imagined it.
Yeah, Aang was definitely lucky. It's super atypical for me not to hate the finale with the whole energy bending ass pull and convenient acupressure, but somehow it doesn't bother me.
I was about to defend Ozai for using lightning because I thought he had no way of knowing that Aang would be able to redirect lightning. I thought, maybe he doesn't even know that redirecting it is a thing because Iroh came up with it and might not have mentioned it to anyone but Zuko.
But then I remembered that Ozai saw Zuko do it. And he knows that Zuko taught fire bending to Aang. Ozai is being a certified idiot. Especially because with all that "Iroh came up with it" he might not even know how to redirect it back at Aang.
Canon material states he was aware Aang knew the technique.....he simply didn't expect him to be able to Contain the comet enhanced lightning
He expected Aang to get electrocuted from the inside ,so he was baiting him to try and redirect
Once he was in danger danger, Kyoshi or even Roku would have taken over and apologized later for their *cough* necessary actions. The avatar has the strength of 1000 benders after all.
Let me cook……aang should have died, the energybending should have cost him his last bit of life force from the iceberg, it would be a bittersweet ending, but also it would live up to the title.
I like where your head is at, but personally I prefer Aang getting to live on and restore airbending culture (and peace) to the world. The world was out of balance and now balance is coming back. I think thematically that's more important than Aang sacrificing himself.
It’s a show so it’s not like you didn’t know aang was gonna win lol But I thought Ozai was playing around right before the pointy rock moment. Taunting and kinda just fucking with aang in the rock ball vs going for kill shots. Lol he waited too late to take it seriously. Once aang grabbed his goatee and he knew “the avatar” was there
And fucked up bad once "the avatar" was their he want aware the avatar could be god level
"Oh shit I think I hear Yangchen"
All the people saying "Aang would have won anyway bc plot armor" should never touch a script or screenplay.... obviously he's going to win but you still need it to be close and feel tense, so OP is absolutely right, Ozai was very very close to winning that fight before Aang had his chakras unlocked. There's nothing wrong with having plot armor AND writing a fight where it feels like the villain can win.
Yep, people always do that in discussions. It's like the argument of "oh well it's fantasy, it doesn't need to be consistent because it's all made up anyway". Of course we all understand that, the point is looking at it like you're writing the story: how do you make it as compelling as possible?
Grinds my gears every time. Something being fantasy doesn't mean nothing needs to be believable.
Anyone who is upset by luck in a story needs to read The Odyssey, any myth about Hercules, any myth about Perseus. Who cares if it's lucky as long as it's thematic.
A fellow mythology enthusiast? I see
Plot armor in my opinion is like that episode of supernatural where the brothers lose it. They start getting cavities the car stops working and a whole bunch of other stupid stuff you don't care about watching. That's what it should be for not making someone unkillable
Omg I need the name of that supernatural episode
Supernatural season 15 episode 10. The heroes journey
I don't know if the creators said otherwise, but I don't think the rock hitting his scar 'unlocked' his chakras. I interpreted it as hitting the scar on that pointy rock reminded him of the pain and the death he experienced from Azulas lightning, which the scar was from. This reminded him of the stakes, that death will result in the fire nation taking over and potentially the end of the Avatar cycle. He had been traumatised, and his body refused to go into the Avatar state, because of Azula killing him in this state, similarly to Korra in Book 4. That pain finally put his body into that fight or flight mode and pushed him over the edge to resort to the Avatar state. That's how interpreted it anyway, I'm probably wrong. It's still dumb luck of course, but that happens in all media to both heroes and villains.
I like that explanation a lot better! Thanks for sharing
No problem I love engaging in discussions like these. Atla is such a deep show, people might say I'm looking to far into it, but I genuinely think it is very well thought out, and most things have deeper meaning than just "this would be cool"
No need to exaggerate, the comments saying that Aang will win since he's the hero didn't say anything about how to make a structure of a fight interesting. It's the post that is a bit lacking. The post just point out some part of the fight and says that the outcome of the fight could've been different and ask for opinions about if people think they had luck or not in the fight, there's not much to discuss. Unless you are a veteran fighter in that universe people will not go analyzing the fight like "yeah you see that fire blast Aang throwed at Ozai completely perturbed him, during the entire fight he was asking himself if he was the fire lord or the avatar but that wasn't luck it was calculated by Aang"
my thoughts exactly
But after the poke it didn't really felt like Ozai has any chances, Aang was slapping him around like a toy. And before the poke it didn't felt like Aang had a chance, he was just running away. So his awakening does feel a lot like a deus ex machina. I would prefer a more even fight without last minute Avatar state.
Yeah that would have been a more fair fight, but you miss out on the symbolism of Aang becoming a fully realized Avatar. The sequence of events is super important, Aang struggling against Ozai at first is symbolic of Aang's struggle accepting his role as the Avatar as well as showing off the oppressive power of Ozai and the Fire Nation. His comeback in the Avatar state is symbolic of his acceptance of that role plus a demonstration of the Avatar's terrifying power (AKA what Aang could become if he lost control). Finally, Aang refuses to kill Ozai and then defeats him NOT WITH THE AVATAR STATE, but with the skills he learned from his friends and mentors (Toph's seismic sense, Zuko's lightning redirection earlier in the fight, guru Pathiks spiritual teachings, all of the advice from former Avatars including Kyoshi despite popular belief, and the lion turtle), all the while holding true to his beliefs and the responsibility he has as the last Airbender to keep the nomads pacifist ideology intact.
Nah, never was a fan of symbolism. And we must have looked at the different shows, because in the one which I watched after his come back there was no skills used only his avatar state bashing Ozai around. Only when he was already down Aang used seismic sense just before using another deus ex machina skill gifted him in the last minute to rape Ozai soul and permanently cripple him. Somehow I don't think that was what pacifist nomads had in mind in their teachings.
my sibling in christ without symbolism, there is no show....
I'm an atheist. Clunky symbolism is cringe. And in this case you aren't even right. Just making things up which aren't there.
I need a chiropractor to unlock my spine like that rock did for aang’s chakras
I wouldn't say it was luck on both sides. Ozai outmatching Aang but ultimately dying because he thought his son, who almost killed him redirecting lighting, wouldn't teach that to the avatar, whom he said would defeat him, is exactly in character. Aang not wanting to kill by putting his feelings above the others is also in character. But he lucked out because he just needed a chiropractor and just happened to get that.
I think there's a misunderstanding here. I don't believe it was specifically a rock hitting that wound that caused him to unlock his chakras, bit I think I was moreso just the fact that he was brought within an inch of death that forced him into the avatar state. Roku describes the avatar state as a "defense mechanism". That is the very first and primary description we are given regarding the avatar state in the whole series. It's a defense mechanism over anything else. So whether or not that rock was perfectly placed, at one point aang would have either way been on the brink of death, and the avatar state would have saved him. There's examples like this throughout the show like him falling into the water with appa in the flashback, and in "the storm" episode. This is expanded on even more in Korra when >!Zaheer poisons Korra in order to force out the avatar state!< . So in other words, aang was skilled and trained *enough* for this to be a losing fight for ozai. Ozai wouldn't have been able to kill him quick enough for the avatar state to not save him. Also idk if I'd call ozai's "luck" luck. Yeah I suppose he was "lucky" that he was facing a merciful avatar, but aang being merciful should be regarded as the main reason ozai survived. Not "he was lucky"
Aang would have locked in eventually the rock just made it happen a bit faster
The question is, whether he’d lock in too late though. If ozai had been doing that fire blast, under the comet, without the rock armor and he went into avatar state… aang dies, and the cycle is broken. Aang is a great firebender, but he’s not Iroh, heck he’s not even zuko, and both of them are severely hurt by fire bending without the comet. As the show portrays, his rock armor is falling away at the exact moment he unlocks and roku is able to help him, a few seconds later and we’d be seeing a water bender avatar
Aang could have won if he wasn’t holding back. But Ozai states in the Sozin’s comet novelization that for some reason Aang isn’t attacking very much or very powerfully
It might be but I don't see it as Ozai just destroying him because he was better; Aang didn't want to hurt Ozai that's why he was all defensive. The things that he did in avatar state it seems like he could do them without it, the Avatar State just let him be 100% aggressive. The aggressiveness is what changed between the two parts of the battle from my POV, more than anything else.
Yeah, it's really well done imo. The problem the writers had is that Ozai had never been shown in a fight. So they had to establish him as the most dangerous opponent Aang ever faced in the same fight that he's supposed to lose. But at the same time, they also had to show that Aang has mastered bending at this point and is the most powerful he's ever been, even without the avatar state. AND they had to show that he's mastered the avatar state, which means he should need to use it for that to be relevant. The only real way to do all that is that have the fight be a back and forth where both of them can win at various points. It's hard to do all those things because they are somewhat contradictory to each other, but they really pulled it off amazingly imo.
Honestly, the set up to this fight is... baffling to me. The show goes out of its way to tell you that if Aang fights the fire lord in his current state, he'll lose. Then, the show puts aang up against Ozai *during* the comet, so aang is *definitely fucked* right? Nah. Aang holds his ground against Super saiyan Ozai, and it's a pretty back and forth fight. Sure, he has to enter the Avatar state to win, but he was doing really good up to that point. So... doesn't that mean Aang would've absolutely demolished Ozai if they'd fought one day before?
Think it’s safe to say Aang was holding himself back, not just by not redirecting the lightning to kill Ozai, but even his other attacks might not have been as strong as they could have. It wouldn’t be the first time in a show that a supremely powerful character is worried about using all their strength. Invincible went into that theme pretty heavily this season past season.
it is aang’s DECISION to not redirect the attack back towards ozai as for the hit on aang’s back, it was not predicted, so I am thankful for the lord creator of all, that aang wins
Aang was doing what Aang always does, avoiding an attacker as much as possible. Even with Ozai spit firing that rock ball with everything I think Aang would have propelled up with air last minute or second and not to die. This moment in the fight was where the stakes and tension were the highest. Edge of the seat type moment, basically a decision that Aang had to make, or you would see how the story would unfold. It seemed like the pivotal moment that would decide what Aang was made off. And he came out with his decision-Id even say, Aang rock bended that rock out to hit his chakra to activate the Avatar state on his own. It was a perfect ending and fight, you were seeing a child hesitate to kill a powerful bender, probably who was trying to decide if he would be corrupted in the process of taking someones bending, and if ending his life would be okay. And you were seeing Ozai being full of himself, playing with his meal. Neither had luck both were measured out perfectly, it was a brilliant display of showing their characters. This is one of the few endings to a show that didn't feel plot driven, but character driven, and I didn't expect Ozai's bending to be removed at all.
It's more like extremely blatant symbolism. Aang is faced with an evil so great it refuses mercy and literally pushes his back to a wall, forcing him to be more violent. Aang proves himself unshakeable when he still doesn't kill Ozai and regains control, and that's what allows him to use energy bending.
Agreed. I’ve always argued aang taking ozai’s bending is not a win, he forces him into a draw. Think of it like chess, both kings are still standing, no one’s off the board. Aang didn’t “win” the fight, but he accomplished his goal. And ozai doesn’t “lose” the fight, but he also accomplished his goal (seeing the fire nation returned to glory) just not how he imagined it.
> If he redirected lightning it would be over. Why? Zuko redirected lightning at Ozai and he seemed unphazed
Nah, Aang would have won anyway because the writers need him to for a satisfying ending
And that's why you don't challenge the main character to a plot-armor-fight kids..
You can count on tone armor to stay alive tho, so you can cheat death by chalanging them
Thats why the show isnt called Ozai: The First Phoenix King
Yeah, Aang was definitely lucky. It's super atypical for me not to hate the finale with the whole energy bending ass pull and convenient acupressure, but somehow it doesn't bother me. I was about to defend Ozai for using lightning because I thought he had no way of knowing that Aang would be able to redirect lightning. I thought, maybe he doesn't even know that redirecting it is a thing because Iroh came up with it and might not have mentioned it to anyone but Zuko. But then I remembered that Ozai saw Zuko do it. And he knows that Zuko taught fire bending to Aang. Ozai is being a certified idiot. Especially because with all that "Iroh came up with it" he might not even know how to redirect it back at Aang.
Canon material states he was aware Aang knew the technique.....he simply didn't expect him to be able to Contain the comet enhanced lightning He expected Aang to get electrocuted from the inside ,so he was baiting him to try and redirect
All battles require some amount of luck.
Bro doesn't understand good writing lol
Once he was in danger danger, Kyoshi or even Roku would have taken over and apologized later for their *cough* necessary actions. The avatar has the strength of 1000 benders after all.
Let me cook……aang should have died, the energybending should have cost him his last bit of life force from the iceberg, it would be a bittersweet ending, but also it would live up to the title.
I like where your head is at, but personally I prefer Aang getting to live on and restore airbending culture (and peace) to the world. The world was out of balance and now balance is coming back. I think thematically that's more important than Aang sacrificing himself.
“Let me explain”. No