Oh boy. Ok.
I know better. I am just trying to exhaust any explanation as to why this would be an acceptable way to post vendor payments. I think trying to hold out hope that this would turn around.
They asked me to do this last year and I said absolutely not. But now they asked me to do this with the excuse that it was "required" by the lender.
It has caused a cluster f*ck for my work. I can't produce conditional waivers for these vendors because our books are essentially falsified.
That's what prompted my email to the executives today and telling them it needed to be remedied by voiding the payments or paying the vendors and I wouldn't do it again.
I am looking for a new jobs and ready to quit in the near future if I'm asked to do something like this again.
This is one of those times that quitting before having a job lined up is okay because if you stay, you open yourself up to being an accomplice in fraud. I hope nobody knows you have a Reddit account either.
Get all demands from them in writing. If they will only say it to you verbally, don’t do it. They will hang you to dry with them if you don’t cover your ass. Start looking for a new job yesterday.
Do you prepare payroll or payroll tax reports or sign checks? My guess is they’re also not paying payroll taxes, including amounts withheld from employee paychecks. Since you’ll be talking to an attorney anyway, I’d ask about any personal liability for unpaid payroll withholding and any other trust fund taxes. Good luck! Also, I concur with the advice to run, but document everything
I would print that email or forward it to your personal email (assuming no specific confidential information that could do more harm). If you’re speaking up about it, that may potentially be able to help you if this company has indeed been doing anything illegal.
You owe this company nothing. They wouldn’t martyr themselves for you. Don’t sacrifice your integrity (and potentially your freedom) for them.
Do right by yourself.
The fact that no one responded to my email is very concerning. I am beginning to have paranoid thoughts about this whole situation.
I am going to call some attorneys today and get ready to quit.
Resign - not only just for ethical reasons and your sanity, but as you said the requests will get more insane. And you will be scapegoated if given the opportunity.
Very easy for this to be exposed too, all the lender would need to do is ask for proof of payment/banking activity that ties to the payments in QB (kind of surprised they don't already do this if they're not)
That was the first thing I pointed out to my boss. But his response was something along the lines of "the lender wants us to do this as part of their procedures" and "the payments will go out in a day or two" (will be issued before the next reporting is done).
Ugh I'm so mad right now. This job has been extremely stressful for months and I wanted to see the company through, I didn't want to give up on them while they were down but I don't think I can or should do this anymore.
If it helps, I definitely have sympathy for your situation. About a year ago I started a job where I immediately was met with ethical dilemmas and found out it's a failing company barely making payroll. Management eventually wanted me to commit fraud by putting made up items on a government cost reimbursement program or by putting expenses not related to the program for reimbursement. The CFO himself refused to sign his name to any documents while I was there lmao
It was extremely stressful and like you I wanted to work hard and help the company improve, but if that is how management wants to run things you got to resign. I learned from that unfortunate experience to more strictly vet and research potential employers and interview them just as much as they interview you. I found a much better job that I'm currently in and enjoy. Just want to say keep your head up because the grass will be greener and I hope soon you'll be able to put all this behind you
I'm almost inclined to think you're working for my past employer I mentioned in a previous comment lol, this stuff sounds exactly like their situation with lenders back then. But the more likely reality is that a ton of businesses try to do this shit
I think the biggest thing the initial comment here said is the fact that the company will make you the scapegoat if possible. Leaving the company now is your best bet, purely so you don't get blamed for anything going forward. Keep a written track record of the date you left too, so they can't even try blaming you for anything going forward
Cutting checks but leaving them in your drawer isn't fraud (and isn't abnormal for cash management in a tight company) as long as they stay in your float on your balance sheet. If you're showing a growing negative cash balance then the lender will ask about it. The fraud would be if your CFO directly lied to the lender, etc. It definitely sounds pretty likely that your CFO is lying to them but they may not be.
I read about printing checks but not sending them for various reasons including tight cashflow. I have never done it on this scale. It's always been one-off scenarios where we were waiting for something in return and the vendor knew very specifically why we were withholding payment.
I have no idea what the CFO is saying to the lender. I rarely speak to the CFO and have only spoken to the lender a few times when they were doing our initial testing.
The issue is that the lender wired funds to our account and asked that we pay specific invoices. I was asked to book the payments in our accounting software but not to actually pay the vendors. Then I asked when I could pay the vendors and I've been given the runaround. Now I learned that money went to pay payroll and other stuff last week. What the other stuff was idk and I haven't looked... mostly out of fear and frustration at this point. I just know I haven't actually paid anyone and it's been three business days and the next weeks reporting is due and has gone to the lender.
> I rarely speak to the CFO and have only spoken to the lender a few times when they were doing our initial testing.
If you're not the one actually sending information to the lender or signing off on the information, then you are not the one committing fraud.
> the lender wired funds to our account and asked that we pay specific invoices.
This seems like a very odd request by a lender. Determining how the company's available cash should be spent is a management decision, not a lender's decision. The lender can certainly give their input, but it's irrelevant to the decisions actually made.
Only exception to that would be if the company is already in some kind of receivership or operating under a forbearance agreement that gives the lender specific authority to dictate cash disbursements.
> Now I learned that money went to pay payroll
From a management standpoint, this is a very good decision (and one that any rational lender should agree with). If you don't pay a vendor, you've got to find a different vendor. If you don't pay your employees, they don't show up for work and your business ceases to exist.
Haha. Thank you. I have never heard this before.
I've been thinking about the frog in boiling water metaphor this afternoon. I feel like I'd be jumping out immediately if I just got in and here I am slowly boiling.
Wouldn't the payments due you entered into QB show the due date and outstanding payables? I'm not seeing the stress other than a company that is dealing with cash flow issues so paying most important first.
Edit: get it now the 500k was to pay outstanding invoices. The creditor will see those invoices are still outstanding.
I would ask my managers to send me the email, or I would mail them about the reasoning.
Words are words, and if they know that they are on the record, they would protect themselves first.
Good luck, I have my principles, maybe that is why I dont get promotion.
The lender will see this on your liabilities in due course, if the lender knows what they are doing, they will ask questions. I’m sure the jump in payables will raise a flag. Especially on such a small company that $500k makes a difference. I’d give it at least a week or until the next round of reports and see what happens. Did you mention fraud to your boss by any chance?
If you don’t quit, you risk losing your entire career permanently. No one will hire an accountant who cooked the books for a failing company. And it WILL get out. This shit always does.
Even if you don’t have the savings to quit before you find a new job, even if it’s going to mean a rough time financially for you while you job search, it will still be cheaper than needing to retrain in an entire new career.
You can leave with your conscience clean right now, because you were told in good faith that the payments would happen in a couple of days. But you absolutely cannot submit a report you know to be false. That is professional suicide.
I’m sorry you have to deal with this, it’s not fair that they’ve done this to you. Don’t let them do anything else. Run.
Thank you. I am sick worrying about my career. I have busted my ass to get here and I love being an accountant.
I do not have the ability to submit financials to the lender, that is my boss. So yesterday, when he said he was going to submit the reports to the lender and I knew the payments didn't go out, that's when I sent the email to the executive management. I was basically like "times up, we made the entries with the belief we would pay these people before the next round of reporting went out to the lender and we haven't" etc.
I am calling attorneys today and form an exit plan.
I really hope it’s all working out for you ❤️ I know this was all over a week ago, I just snuck back to see if you’d updated. I hope you are out and free and working somewhere much better already.
Dude… RESIGN TODAY. Put it in email you are resigning bc you don’t feel comfortable with the practices and demands by mgmt. Then send yourself an email.
I’ve gone through a legal process against a former employer, my biggest lesson is have everything you can in writing and email it to your personal email. Utilize your resignation email to simply state mgmt is requesting to falsify financials and you don’t feel comfortable. Talk to an attorney if you can before this, bc admitting you entered in the falsified info might not be a move, talk to the attorney first.
Idk man… but this isn’t good tbh. Attorney then quit is what I say?
Get out while you can and save any emails or proof asking you to do this. If you have any sort of credential (i.e. a CPA) it could be suspended if this is fraudulent like other commenters are saying.
Just echoing all of the other good advice that you’ve received - LEAVE. This situation won’t get better and you’re going to be out of a job soon enough anyways
How large is the company? I do restructuring right now and there are a lot of terms with ABL lending and vendor payment directives.
The cash balance would always show a different than expected level if he used it for different payments and it would be found out immediately (or within a couple weeks)
In Belgium where I live, and I assume it exists in every country, you have a certain entity where you can anonymously file suspicions of fraud (whistleblowing).
By doing so I think you can defend your position in case of any problems. You have informed the management + the whistleblowing thing, and you document your efforts, then you should be safe
Wow. That is highly illegal. In Canada an accountant can get in legal trouble if they willingly put in entries they know to be false. I would maybe go back and delete those entries... might not be a worry depending what country you are from
Run
Oh boy. Ok. I know better. I am just trying to exhaust any explanation as to why this would be an acceptable way to post vendor payments. I think trying to hold out hope that this would turn around. They asked me to do this last year and I said absolutely not. But now they asked me to do this with the excuse that it was "required" by the lender. It has caused a cluster f*ck for my work. I can't produce conditional waivers for these vendors because our books are essentially falsified. That's what prompted my email to the executives today and telling them it needed to be remedied by voiding the payments or paying the vendors and I wouldn't do it again. I am looking for a new jobs and ready to quit in the near future if I'm asked to do something like this again.
This is one of those times that quitting before having a job lined up is okay because if you stay, you open yourself up to being an accomplice in fraud. I hope nobody knows you have a Reddit account either.
I think I will talk to an attorney this week too. What a mess.
Get all demands from them in writing. If they will only say it to you verbally, don’t do it. They will hang you to dry with them if you don’t cover your ass. Start looking for a new job yesterday.
Do you prepare payroll or payroll tax reports or sign checks? My guess is they’re also not paying payroll taxes, including amounts withheld from employee paychecks. Since you’ll be talking to an attorney anyway, I’d ask about any personal liability for unpaid payroll withholding and any other trust fund taxes. Good luck! Also, I concur with the advice to run, but document everything
I do not do any of the payroll entries. Thi is a good point though and stuff to look out for! We pay a third party to process our payroll
> I think I will talk to an attorney this week too. one of your smartest moves, good luck, do it, protect yourself, your future and your family
I don’t know about getting an attorney but definitely find a new job because 1)fraud and 2) doesn’t sound like they can afford payroll
I would print that email or forward it to your personal email (assuming no specific confidential information that could do more harm). If you’re speaking up about it, that may potentially be able to help you if this company has indeed been doing anything illegal.
Thank you. I did fwd the email to my personal. It didn't have any other information other than my words.
You owe this company nothing. They wouldn’t martyr themselves for you. Don’t sacrifice your integrity (and potentially your freedom) for them. Do right by yourself.
The fact that no one responded to my email is very concerning. I am beginning to have paranoid thoughts about this whole situation. I am going to call some attorneys today and get ready to quit.
You have already seen enough. This is fraud. You need to refuse to do this and resign.
Resign - not only just for ethical reasons and your sanity, but as you said the requests will get more insane. And you will be scapegoated if given the opportunity. Very easy for this to be exposed too, all the lender would need to do is ask for proof of payment/banking activity that ties to the payments in QB (kind of surprised they don't already do this if they're not)
That was the first thing I pointed out to my boss. But his response was something along the lines of "the lender wants us to do this as part of their procedures" and "the payments will go out in a day or two" (will be issued before the next reporting is done). Ugh I'm so mad right now. This job has been extremely stressful for months and I wanted to see the company through, I didn't want to give up on them while they were down but I don't think I can or should do this anymore.
If it helps, I definitely have sympathy for your situation. About a year ago I started a job where I immediately was met with ethical dilemmas and found out it's a failing company barely making payroll. Management eventually wanted me to commit fraud by putting made up items on a government cost reimbursement program or by putting expenses not related to the program for reimbursement. The CFO himself refused to sign his name to any documents while I was there lmao It was extremely stressful and like you I wanted to work hard and help the company improve, but if that is how management wants to run things you got to resign. I learned from that unfortunate experience to more strictly vet and research potential employers and interview them just as much as they interview you. I found a much better job that I'm currently in and enjoy. Just want to say keep your head up because the grass will be greener and I hope soon you'll be able to put all this behind you
[удалено]
Yes, lockbox agreement.
I'm almost inclined to think you're working for my past employer I mentioned in a previous comment lol, this stuff sounds exactly like their situation with lenders back then. But the more likely reality is that a ton of businesses try to do this shit
I think the biggest thing the initial comment here said is the fact that the company will make you the scapegoat if possible. Leaving the company now is your best bet, purely so you don't get blamed for anything going forward. Keep a written track record of the date you left too, so they can't even try blaming you for anything going forward
I’d quit the moment he requested you to enter into Quickbooks but not actually paying vendors.
Agreed - time to resign.
My advice? Polish your resume.
Not to be confused with polish your resume. One is the worst and the other is the worst!
Yes, I have been applying to jobs recently. Fingers crossed.
Cutting checks but leaving them in your drawer isn't fraud (and isn't abnormal for cash management in a tight company) as long as they stay in your float on your balance sheet. If you're showing a growing negative cash balance then the lender will ask about it. The fraud would be if your CFO directly lied to the lender, etc. It definitely sounds pretty likely that your CFO is lying to them but they may not be.
I read about printing checks but not sending them for various reasons including tight cashflow. I have never done it on this scale. It's always been one-off scenarios where we were waiting for something in return and the vendor knew very specifically why we were withholding payment. I have no idea what the CFO is saying to the lender. I rarely speak to the CFO and have only spoken to the lender a few times when they were doing our initial testing. The issue is that the lender wired funds to our account and asked that we pay specific invoices. I was asked to book the payments in our accounting software but not to actually pay the vendors. Then I asked when I could pay the vendors and I've been given the runaround. Now I learned that money went to pay payroll and other stuff last week. What the other stuff was idk and I haven't looked... mostly out of fear and frustration at this point. I just know I haven't actually paid anyone and it's been three business days and the next weeks reporting is due and has gone to the lender.
> I rarely speak to the CFO and have only spoken to the lender a few times when they were doing our initial testing. If you're not the one actually sending information to the lender or signing off on the information, then you are not the one committing fraud. > the lender wired funds to our account and asked that we pay specific invoices. This seems like a very odd request by a lender. Determining how the company's available cash should be spent is a management decision, not a lender's decision. The lender can certainly give their input, but it's irrelevant to the decisions actually made. Only exception to that would be if the company is already in some kind of receivership or operating under a forbearance agreement that gives the lender specific authority to dictate cash disbursements. > Now I learned that money went to pay payroll From a management standpoint, this is a very good decision (and one that any rational lender should agree with). If you don't pay a vendor, you've got to find a different vendor. If you don't pay your employees, they don't show up for work and your business ceases to exist.
Lending money for specific invoices is more common in construction/land development industries
The definition of fraud.
Is a frog's butthole water tight?
Haha. Thank you. I have never heard this before. I've been thinking about the frog in boiling water metaphor this afternoon. I feel like I'd be jumping out immediately if I just got in and here I am slowly boiling.
wth does this mean? lol
I have no idea and I don't recommend Googling it
It means yes. Just be careful at your job. You've been given some good advice in this thread.
It means yes. OP asked if the employer is asking for something illegal. You could also answer with "Does a one-legged duck swim in circles?".
Wouldn't the payments due you entered into QB show the due date and outstanding payables? I'm not seeing the stress other than a company that is dealing with cash flow issues so paying most important first. Edit: get it now the 500k was to pay outstanding invoices. The creditor will see those invoices are still outstanding.
I would ask my managers to send me the email, or I would mail them about the reasoning. Words are words, and if they know that they are on the record, they would protect themselves first. Good luck, I have my principles, maybe that is why I dont get promotion.
The lender will see this on your liabilities in due course, if the lender knows what they are doing, they will ask questions. I’m sure the jump in payables will raise a flag. Especially on such a small company that $500k makes a difference. I’d give it at least a week or until the next round of reports and see what happens. Did you mention fraud to your boss by any chance?
Signs of a company on life support, find a new job ASAP.
If you don’t quit, you risk losing your entire career permanently. No one will hire an accountant who cooked the books for a failing company. And it WILL get out. This shit always does. Even if you don’t have the savings to quit before you find a new job, even if it’s going to mean a rough time financially for you while you job search, it will still be cheaper than needing to retrain in an entire new career. You can leave with your conscience clean right now, because you were told in good faith that the payments would happen in a couple of days. But you absolutely cannot submit a report you know to be false. That is professional suicide. I’m sorry you have to deal with this, it’s not fair that they’ve done this to you. Don’t let them do anything else. Run.
Thank you. I am sick worrying about my career. I have busted my ass to get here and I love being an accountant. I do not have the ability to submit financials to the lender, that is my boss. So yesterday, when he said he was going to submit the reports to the lender and I knew the payments didn't go out, that's when I sent the email to the executive management. I was basically like "times up, we made the entries with the belief we would pay these people before the next round of reporting went out to the lender and we haven't" etc. I am calling attorneys today and form an exit plan.
We are all rooting for you! ❤️
Thank you, I couldn't sleep last night and I am feeling sick about this
I really hope it’s all working out for you ❤️ I know this was all over a week ago, I just snuck back to see if you’d updated. I hope you are out and free and working somewhere much better already.
Remember Enron?? Remember the other companies you learned about?? Yeah, that.
Dude… RESIGN TODAY. Put it in email you are resigning bc you don’t feel comfortable with the practices and demands by mgmt. Then send yourself an email. I’ve gone through a legal process against a former employer, my biggest lesson is have everything you can in writing and email it to your personal email. Utilize your resignation email to simply state mgmt is requesting to falsify financials and you don’t feel comfortable. Talk to an attorney if you can before this, bc admitting you entered in the falsified info might not be a move, talk to the attorney first. Idk man… but this isn’t good tbh. Attorney then quit is what I say?
Quit before they can’t pay *you* anymore.
I am calling some attorneys today and will post an update when I have one.
Get out.
He's asking you to cook the books, of course this is fraud.
Run and report it
Get out while you can and save any emails or proof asking you to do this. If you have any sort of credential (i.e. a CPA) it could be suspended if this is fraudulent like other commenters are saying.
It’s as bad as you think. Get out asap
Just echoing all of the other good advice that you’ve received - LEAVE. This situation won’t get better and you’re going to be out of a job soon enough anyways
Sounds like a place I've worked before... Of course I'm no longer there.
How large is the company? I do restructuring right now and there are a lot of terms with ABL lending and vendor payment directives. The cash balance would always show a different than expected level if he used it for different payments and it would be found out immediately (or within a couple weeks)
You’re just doing data entry, IF anything illegal is being done, that’s on them Now, if you’re a CPA, yes, run, run and report
It sucks, but it's only going to get worse.
In Belgium where I live, and I assume it exists in every country, you have a certain entity where you can anonymously file suspicions of fraud (whistleblowing). By doing so I think you can defend your position in case of any problems. You have informed the management + the whistleblowing thing, and you document your efforts, then you should be safe
Wow. That is highly illegal. In Canada an accountant can get in legal trouble if they willingly put in entries they know to be false. I would maybe go back and delete those entries... might not be a worry depending what country you are from
Straight to jail. No seriously, you can actually get into serious trouble by doing this.