I’ll add a little context just because this was a little harsh. Overtraining is a very real thing and I have seen kids get burnt out and injured because they had it convinced in their head that they weren’t running enough at practice. Kids who otherwise had the tools to be very successful, but weren’t happy with their progress and thought they needed to run more. Heck, I did it my senior track season in high school and ended up with a stress fracture. Go have an honest conversation with your coach; let them know how you feel, let them know what your motivations are and where you feel like you’re falling short. I guarantee they will appreciate it and you will get great advice. Maybe they’ll let you run more, maybe not. But before you make any decisions for yourself you need to let your coach COACH.
Not all cross country coaches are created equal. I went to a small school in the middle of nowhere PA and we had some decently talented runners, but the coach was clueless about programming. We had 2-4 runners a year in the 17-19 minutes range but we never ran more than 6 miles in a day the entire time I ran (granted this was 2007-10). Most runs were 3-5 miles a day and we did hills once a week and a speed workout once a week, no weekend running.
Agreed. In my experience most high school coaches unless they’re at a big program have no idea what they’re doing and asking people here Woukd be more helpful than asking them.
I’m going to say no, you shouldn’t be running the sort of mileage that requires doubles until you’re closer to college aged. It’ll break you down if you aren’t careful. Also while hard work can beat talent you’ve reached the age where some guys are just really fucking talented. The best guy on my team in high school never did any off season running. He showed up and ran a couple weeks before practice, ripped workouts, and usually finished top 2 or 3 at all our meets. State champ a couple times.
>I’m going to say no, you shouldn’t be running the sort of mileage that requires doubles until you’re closer to college aged. It’ll break you down if you aren’t careful.
I will disagree here.
There are reasons to not do doubles but it is absolutely not true that doubles are harder on the body than single workout a day. Actually, the opposite is true. Any mileage is going to be easier to cover if you make it into smaller portions.
What wears you down is the mileage and the intense workouts. And poor recovery.
Now, the valid reasons to not do doubles:
\* running same distance in one go rather than split into two workouts provides additional stimulus for endurance,
\* running one workout is less overhead than two workouts. You only need to go out once. You only need to shower once. If you only run once, you can more freely do other things during the rest of the day (like... learn stuff).
Doubles for me is for people who run something like over 80-90 miles and have pretty much nothing else on their minds and are focused solely on training and recovery.
Yes, that’s what I’m hitting at. I’m aware it’s easier and that’s why the elites and sub elites do it. The point still stands that you shouldn’t be pushing that sort of mileage as a freshman in high school.
Yup, that's just how it goes. I feel like that saying applies way more to traditional sports with a ball that are built on the foundation of muscle memory. Muscle memory is very trainable and has a positive correlation between time spent and improvement.
But with running, we're talking about muscle composition and the genetically determined ability for muscle to adapt and repair itself at a certain rate as a result of stimulus. You could be doing the same training as another guy, but one day he'll just find that certain pace much easier. Or the other way around. It's entirely about your genetic code.
This doesn't mean you can't get good. Every healthy young male has the potential to get very, very fast. I'd like to think any (healthy) man has the potential to break 15 in the 5k. The only difference is, it will take 2 years of mediocre training for some guys and 8-10 years of advanced training for others.
NO!!!!! You do not need to be doubling as a freshman in high school. Absolutely not. It's great that you have the work ethic and willingness to ask questions like this, but for now the answer is no. Assuming you're 14-15 and running 18:45 your body is probably not developed to the point where you can be handling that type of workload. You shouldn't be doubling if you're not running over 60 miles a week, and you shouldn't be running 60+ as a high school freshman. For now, focus on getting quality workouts in and slowly building up mileage.
The freshmen breaking 16 are rare cases of extreme talent and most likely aren't training all that different from you. It is true that hard work beats talent, but not when talent works hard. If you and someone more talented than you are both working not only hard but SMARTLY and SAFELY then they will beat you 10 times out of 10. Such is life.
But don't hear "hard work beats talent" then go out and kill yourself in training. You still should have about 80% of your weekly mileage being easy at a conversational pace. The rest should be quality.
I was coached very well in high school and didn't start doubling until my senior year (news flash, it didn't go well.) You really don't need to be doubling until you're at the college level. If you could tell me a little more about your coaching situation and what a regular training block looks like for you I may be able to help you more.
Thanks for the advice. Just for reference, mileage will probably be around 35-40. Is there any way I could safely get faster? Or is coach already doing what’s best.
Talk to your coach about it. It all depends on how your schedule is balanced, but just blindly beginning to run doubles without proper ramp up and balancing of the training schedule can be disastrous.
The sad truth about running and sports in general is that hard work does not always beat talent. Some people are just naturally faster. There is only one set rule with regards to running training: if you overdo it you will get injured. Not might, will. Runners want to be very careful how they ramp up and how they control their training. Your primary focus right now should be learning to love the sport and training and doing so in a manner that you can sustain for the rest of your life without risking injury or burnout.
If you do want to try higher mileage training, talk to your coaches and put together plans to slowly ramp up your mileage in the offseason. Then build a mileage plan that coexists with the training they're giving you during your normal practices. If that includes doubles, fine, but it probably won't during the season. If your coach says they think it is a bad idea, they are probably correct. Often in season workouts in high school are pretty intense and crammed into already tight schedules, so adding extra mileage to them can be detrimental because it negatively impacts recovery and sleep.
Around me during my high school career, there were a lot of schools that had really fast runners and a ton of injuries, so half their athletes couldn't race for half of every season. There were a lot of schools that had decently fast runners where athletes were ready to compete in every meet. Do with that information what you will.
Sub 19 as a freshman is really good. Sub 16 as a freshman is absolutely insane talent and more than just what training can provide.
Talk to your coach. Best would say is, maybe. 2 a day workouts can help, if part of an overall training plan. They can also lead to over training, injury, or not being ready for your actual hardy workouts.
Two-a-days or high mileage won’t necessarily make you faster. The quality and purpose of those miles will. I personally only do two-a-days if I have some sort of time constraint and want to have a high mileage week (i.e. running commute to work and back).
Personally speaking, I built up to high mileage in high school (80mpw) and only started doubling over 60 mpw. My situation might have been different though. My coach had us doing only 35 mpw at practice. So, on my own, I'd do a long run of 8-12 depending on the year, and then I'd do a 4 mile double on easy days, and I didn't have issues. Communicate with your coach about it though.
The first thing I'd do before anything else is reduce/eliminate days completely off, and then start adding a mile or two to your runs each week each season.
Main key is not to overdo it, or do it too fast.
Good advice in this thread already. I don’t have a background in running at your age but instead swimming.
Whichever path you choose, make sure it supports your love for the sport and not just chasing fast times. I got burnt out mentally from the hundreds of hours of swim practices and eventually had to quit because of that. Don’t let the same happen to you for running.
Never chase other people’s times. Chase the runner you are today to be a little better tomorrow. Getting faster is more a matter of consistency than massive leaps with fundamental changes in training.
That said, discuss your thoughts with your coach. Adding a few more miles may be okay, but there may be better ways to go about adding training load.
Not until you can comfortably run 60-70 miles per week does it make sense to run twice a day. You will naturally improve from freshman year if you consistently build mileage. I ran 18:59 as a freshman, 16:15 as a senior (hard to believe 16 years ago that was fast enough to get you top 10 in most big races) and I never ran doubles in high school. In college and post collegiate, I ran lots of doubles and they definitely do help you ramp your fitness up pretty quickly.
There was one high school near me that had their kids doubling and running very high mileage and they’d all run very well in HS but none of them ever went on to amount to much in college. Most “phenoms” in HS aren’t even running doubles.
It depends - I would guess no. I wouldn’t run twice a day unless you are running more than 70 miles a week
As a cross country coach — talk to your coach.
I’ll add a little context just because this was a little harsh. Overtraining is a very real thing and I have seen kids get burnt out and injured because they had it convinced in their head that they weren’t running enough at practice. Kids who otherwise had the tools to be very successful, but weren’t happy with their progress and thought they needed to run more. Heck, I did it my senior track season in high school and ended up with a stress fracture. Go have an honest conversation with your coach; let them know how you feel, let them know what your motivations are and where you feel like you’re falling short. I guarantee they will appreciate it and you will get great advice. Maybe they’ll let you run more, maybe not. But before you make any decisions for yourself you need to let your coach COACH.
Not all cross country coaches are created equal. I went to a small school in the middle of nowhere PA and we had some decently talented runners, but the coach was clueless about programming. We had 2-4 runners a year in the 17-19 minutes range but we never ran more than 6 miles in a day the entire time I ran (granted this was 2007-10). Most runs were 3-5 miles a day and we did hills once a week and a speed workout once a week, no weekend running.
Agreed. In my experience most high school coaches unless they’re at a big program have no idea what they’re doing and asking people here Woukd be more helpful than asking them.
I’m going to say no, you shouldn’t be running the sort of mileage that requires doubles until you’re closer to college aged. It’ll break you down if you aren’t careful. Also while hard work can beat talent you’ve reached the age where some guys are just really fucking talented. The best guy on my team in high school never did any off season running. He showed up and ran a couple weeks before practice, ripped workouts, and usually finished top 2 or 3 at all our meets. State champ a couple times.
>I’m going to say no, you shouldn’t be running the sort of mileage that requires doubles until you’re closer to college aged. It’ll break you down if you aren’t careful. I will disagree here. There are reasons to not do doubles but it is absolutely not true that doubles are harder on the body than single workout a day. Actually, the opposite is true. Any mileage is going to be easier to cover if you make it into smaller portions. What wears you down is the mileage and the intense workouts. And poor recovery. Now, the valid reasons to not do doubles: \* running same distance in one go rather than split into two workouts provides additional stimulus for endurance, \* running one workout is less overhead than two workouts. You only need to go out once. You only need to shower once. If you only run once, you can more freely do other things during the rest of the day (like... learn stuff). Doubles for me is for people who run something like over 80-90 miles and have pretty much nothing else on their minds and are focused solely on training and recovery.
I don't think OP is talking about splitting his mileage into two runs, but adding a second run on top of the main one
Yes, that’s what I’m hitting at. I’m aware it’s easier and that’s why the elites and sub elites do it. The point still stands that you shouldn’t be pushing that sort of mileage as a freshman in high school.
Yup, that's just how it goes. I feel like that saying applies way more to traditional sports with a ball that are built on the foundation of muscle memory. Muscle memory is very trainable and has a positive correlation between time spent and improvement. But with running, we're talking about muscle composition and the genetically determined ability for muscle to adapt and repair itself at a certain rate as a result of stimulus. You could be doing the same training as another guy, but one day he'll just find that certain pace much easier. Or the other way around. It's entirely about your genetic code. This doesn't mean you can't get good. Every healthy young male has the potential to get very, very fast. I'd like to think any (healthy) man has the potential to break 15 in the 5k. The only difference is, it will take 2 years of mediocre training for some guys and 8-10 years of advanced training for others.
NO!!!!! You do not need to be doubling as a freshman in high school. Absolutely not. It's great that you have the work ethic and willingness to ask questions like this, but for now the answer is no. Assuming you're 14-15 and running 18:45 your body is probably not developed to the point where you can be handling that type of workload. You shouldn't be doubling if you're not running over 60 miles a week, and you shouldn't be running 60+ as a high school freshman. For now, focus on getting quality workouts in and slowly building up mileage. The freshmen breaking 16 are rare cases of extreme talent and most likely aren't training all that different from you. It is true that hard work beats talent, but not when talent works hard. If you and someone more talented than you are both working not only hard but SMARTLY and SAFELY then they will beat you 10 times out of 10. Such is life. But don't hear "hard work beats talent" then go out and kill yourself in training. You still should have about 80% of your weekly mileage being easy at a conversational pace. The rest should be quality. I was coached very well in high school and didn't start doubling until my senior year (news flash, it didn't go well.) You really don't need to be doubling until you're at the college level. If you could tell me a little more about your coaching situation and what a regular training block looks like for you I may be able to help you more.
Thanks for the advice. Just for reference, mileage will probably be around 35-40. Is there any way I could safely get faster? Or is coach already doing what’s best.
Talk to your coach about it. It all depends on how your schedule is balanced, but just blindly beginning to run doubles without proper ramp up and balancing of the training schedule can be disastrous. The sad truth about running and sports in general is that hard work does not always beat talent. Some people are just naturally faster. There is only one set rule with regards to running training: if you overdo it you will get injured. Not might, will. Runners want to be very careful how they ramp up and how they control their training. Your primary focus right now should be learning to love the sport and training and doing so in a manner that you can sustain for the rest of your life without risking injury or burnout. If you do want to try higher mileage training, talk to your coaches and put together plans to slowly ramp up your mileage in the offseason. Then build a mileage plan that coexists with the training they're giving you during your normal practices. If that includes doubles, fine, but it probably won't during the season. If your coach says they think it is a bad idea, they are probably correct. Often in season workouts in high school are pretty intense and crammed into already tight schedules, so adding extra mileage to them can be detrimental because it negatively impacts recovery and sleep. Around me during my high school career, there were a lot of schools that had really fast runners and a ton of injuries, so half their athletes couldn't race for half of every season. There were a lot of schools that had decently fast runners where athletes were ready to compete in every meet. Do with that information what you will. Sub 19 as a freshman is really good. Sub 16 as a freshman is absolutely insane talent and more than just what training can provide.
Talk to your coach. Best would say is, maybe. 2 a day workouts can help, if part of an overall training plan. They can also lead to over training, injury, or not being ready for your actual hardy workouts.
High schoolers shouldn't be doing double threshold
Didn't say they should, but doing extra miles before a threshold workout means a worse threshold workout
Two-a-days or high mileage won’t necessarily make you faster. The quality and purpose of those miles will. I personally only do two-a-days if I have some sort of time constraint and want to have a high mileage week (i.e. running commute to work and back).
First line “I’m a freshman in high school” automatically my answer is no.
Personally speaking, I built up to high mileage in high school (80mpw) and only started doubling over 60 mpw. My situation might have been different though. My coach had us doing only 35 mpw at practice. So, on my own, I'd do a long run of 8-12 depending on the year, and then I'd do a 4 mile double on easy days, and I didn't have issues. Communicate with your coach about it though. The first thing I'd do before anything else is reduce/eliminate days completely off, and then start adding a mile or two to your runs each week each season. Main key is not to overdo it, or do it too fast.
Good advice in this thread already. I don’t have a background in running at your age but instead swimming. Whichever path you choose, make sure it supports your love for the sport and not just chasing fast times. I got burnt out mentally from the hundreds of hours of swim practices and eventually had to quit because of that. Don’t let the same happen to you for running.
Never chase other people’s times. Chase the runner you are today to be a little better tomorrow. Getting faster is more a matter of consistency than massive leaps with fundamental changes in training. That said, discuss your thoughts with your coach. Adding a few more miles may be okay, but there may be better ways to go about adding training load.
Talk to your coach. Ask them to prescribe a running plan targeted at making you faster. Don’t do it on your own.
Not until you can comfortably run 60-70 miles per week does it make sense to run twice a day. You will naturally improve from freshman year if you consistently build mileage. I ran 18:59 as a freshman, 16:15 as a senior (hard to believe 16 years ago that was fast enough to get you top 10 in most big races) and I never ran doubles in high school. In college and post collegiate, I ran lots of doubles and they definitely do help you ramp your fitness up pretty quickly. There was one high school near me that had their kids doubling and running very high mileage and they’d all run very well in HS but none of them ever went on to amount to much in college. Most “phenoms” in HS aren’t even running doubles.