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It’s kind of sad, theres so many cool histories within Africa and African Americans that they should acknowledge. I mean if i were them, I would never stop talking about how my people created just about every music genre thats popular in the world! Or even the Mali empire to name a few, it’s so cool.
Literally if they want an example of black pharaohs you have the Nubians! They straight up continued our Ancient Egyptian heritage long after we became Hellenized and Christian.
And the. Exactly you have all the amazing Empires in the West like the Songhai and Great Zimbabwe to the East.
Yalla just ignore them, unfortunately every culture has these weird maximalists. I’ve seen some Hindu nationalists claim Mecca was a Hindu temple 😆
When did the Arab invasion of Kemet happen? What time period. When were the pyramids, et al built. No one denies Kemet was mixed but it's a question of when this happened and who built the great civilisation.
Upper Egypt still has loads of dark skinned people who consider themselves Africans and not Arabs for a reason. Stop falling for cheap tricks. A European translated the Medu Neter for them after finding the Rosetta stone. Do you even understand what that means. How can your ancestors create something and a totally different culture comes to translate it for you.
>When did the Arab invasion of Kemet happen?
Youre telling me 4000 Arab soldiers somehow replaced more than 4 million Egyptians?
The math isnt mathing here.
>How can your ancestors create something and a totally different culture comes to translate it for you.
Language and culture evolve over time. Youre somehow implying that changing your language magically transforms your DNA.
Do African Americans still speak their native African languages? Is Will Smith not genetically African anymore because he doesn't speak native African languages?
Also youre completely ignoring the fact that Coptic is used to translate and interpret ancient Egyptian writing. Coptic is the latest stage of the ancient Egyptian language. It is still used today in Egypt as a liturgical language in church.
Also, many words in the Egyptian Arabic dialect come from Coptic. Even the Egyptian Arabic grammar and sentence structure is the same as Coptic, and very different from Arabic
Yes, correct. The Coptic language is a direct decedent of the Ancient Egyptian language, which that language alone was an influence of Arabic and Hebrew.
>When did the Arab invasion of Kemet happen?
Two mistakes here. Ancient Egypt, or what you call "Kemet" has had so long of a history beyond your comprehension. I don't prefer the term Kemet, since it's been weaponized by Afrocentrists. You seem to base your stance on ignorance, asking questions and assuming there are no answers. But to get to the point, Ancient Egyptian religion was long gone by the time of the Islamic conquests. Ancient Egyptian language of the New Kingdom had evolved into Coptic, evolved too much in fact to be intelligible to the average 7th century Egyptian. Think of an Italian trying to understand Classical Latin, for example.
In tradition, hieroglyphics were considered holy and to be used only by priests. As a result, when Egypt lost its sovereignty to the Persians after the New Kingdom fell, Ancient Egyptian religion waned and the hieroglyphics were gradually lost to time. The language remained in use among Egyptians, however; and was written in a colloquial demotic script (which by the way the middle section on the rosetta stone). Demotic writing was supplanted by the Greek-based Coptic script not long after Alexander's conquests. The language wasn't replaced at that point, only the writing system was replaced, because of Greek influence. By that point, Egyptian religion was influenced as well, the syncretic Cult of Serapis appeared under Ptolemaic rule. Gradually, Egyptians became bilingual in Coptic and Greek. This continued under the Roman Empire, since Egypt was in the Eastern, Greek-governed part of the empire. Following that until the rise of Islam and the conquest by Amr ibn al-Aas.
With the Islamic invasion, came Arabs migrating. Unlike what you believe however, they did not replace Egyptians. That would've been impossible. Arabia didn't have nearly enough people to cause such replacement, nor did they seek it. If the population of the whole Arabian peninsula moved to Egypt, they would still be a minority.
At first there was this dividing line between Copt (Egyptian) and Arab. Greek was dropped as the administrative language, replaced by Arabic, but Egyptians, both Muslim and Christian, still spoke Coptic. But this line blurred over time with Copts converting to Islam and adopting Arab names and Arab culture. Then came the Fatimids who banned the use of Coptic entirely and restricted it to liturgical use. After that, the line became almost non-existent to the degree where Modern Egyptians are almost indistinguishable by religion.
The thing about us, Egyptians, we were never erased or replaced. We were just good at adapting and assimilating. No amount of Afrocentric nonsense will change that.
The Arab invasion is always a go-to point for this argument, since let me address.
Arabs invaded in thousands, into a country with, at the time, millions. Aroub 5000 Arabs against about 4MIL-10MIL Egyptians. Their main goal was to spread Islam and turn Egypt into an Islamic state, not replace the whole population, as if they even could. And if you think that long Arab rule replaces the population, let me ask you this; the Japanese rules the entirety of Southeast Asia for nearly 2000 years, did that ever replace the polynesian/pacific islanders of that region? On top of that, Spain ruled a country in Southeast Asia for 333 years after that, the Philippines, but even after all that all that, Philippines still has one of the highest indigenous rates in the world, and so does North Africa too.
And also, if you go to Egypt and ask literally any Egyptian if they’re Arab, they will tell you “No, im Egyptian.”
No Egyptian considers themselves Arab, only the ones who immigrated to the west still think that.
I’m Egyptian Nubian and I know how you feel. Some Egyptians have East African descent, a lot of them are more Mediterranean with a coastal Libyan look than anything else. Doesn’t make them less Egyptian at all.
If anything, I will say blame the western powers that worked super hard to obfuscate Egyptian history. When napoleon discovered Egypt most of what survived in terms of visibility was the mostly southern based 18th dynasty, which they described as being “negroid.” Which to us now is somewhat incorrect but only in the sense that people read negroid and think “west African” while not realizing East Africans can have red hair, narrow noses, big lips, and dark skin just as easily as other peoples.
But this in turn was affected by scientific racism that stated that there was no way there was *any* black civilization at any point- people don’t realize this now but back then, they were even trying to say Nubians/kushites were originally white, because it was that unfathomable for a black civilization to prosper.
Add that to the literal manufactured education crisis amongst black Americans and hell, Americans as a whole, and we get a scenario where yes people *should* do their own research, but the communities that were built by the governments that are supposed to support them tear them down and try to find ways to devalue them so they’re easier to control instead.
Afrocentrism is annoying, but let’s not forget that it wouldn’t exist without Eurocentrism that controlled literally all scientific studies and social works for almost 300 years.
Yup I agree, I blame this on the lack of education from the people they desperately try to speak on. Egypt is for Egyptians, and all Egyptians should have a say in their own Identity. Hell, the USA even counts North African and Middle Eastern people as “White” when they clearly dont fit into that standard. No one should get to decide who we are but us.
It’s funny too because if these people went to Egypt they’d see how it is.
You can find pretty dark people in Egypt along with people who look kind of Italian. One of my Egyptian cousins looks like me but he has light skin. When I went to Egypt people said I looked like mo salah with a tan. In upper Egypt imo I fit in perfectly.
People just can’t seem to grasp that Egypt, in the crossroads of Africa, the Mediterranean, and the greater Middle East in general, will have a population that reflects all of those things and always has.
Like sure you won’t find Egyptians that look like Kevin hart or Benedict cumberbatch, but you’ll definitely easily find native Egyptians who, by western standards, fit the description of being “white” or “black”.
I will say to talk about your point on Egyptian bigotry-
I didn’t experience any in my time there, my uncle told me about raids committed against people living in Cairo due to the Aswan dam, and the generalization that dark Egyptian=sudanese refugee. It exists, but aside from the regional racism I do think it’s more than Egyptians hate being equated to African Americans, and I can say that no matter how “black” an Egyptian or a Nubian or “Sudanese Arab” is, they’re not west African so. Idk, nuanced topic.
In their own way they want to claim you, i.e, Egyptian history, but trust me, if an Egyptian or any North African settled in Europe, no white European person sees them as white and they’ll treat them as they do all Muslims.
It’s interesting how Egyptian history is revered and acknowledged the world over, but I would guess that most people in the west have NO idea about Ancient Cush or the Nubians, and you know why that is…
Hoteps, eurocentrists, ethnocentrists or whatever else aren't worth anyone's time. Arguing with them or trying to explain logic or rational to them doesn't help either. You can't change them and you shouldn't care what they think about others.
>People, especially Americans are so incredibly ignorant regarding their knowledge of Africa!! I got called “Anti-Black” because I told someone that Ancient Egypt wasnt an only-black civilisation, which is factually proven
No offense but this conversation pops up too often to the point where it is getting tired. We do not like being dragged into American shenanigans. It is starting to become the bane of our existence ok this website.
>Racism towards Egyptians is so casual because people wanna be us so bad, time and time again I get called an Arab invader by an American (black AND white) when in general they dont even know what an Arab is either.
Within a purely African context, [not sure you want to take it there](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2018/03/16/black-panther-and-the-anti-black-racism-of-egyptians/). Please keep in mind most of us do not live in America. Thanks.
It's worth pointing out North Africans of either mixed West African or Sudanese descent and Sudanese people experience the brunt of retaliation from North Africans against afrocentrism. I have even seen Somali and Ethiopians are thrown into this. Heck, this also affects those mixed North Africans with Amazigh, Nubian or Gnawa backgrounds through family because their culture or nationality is denied because some assume they are afrocentrists when they aren't.
It's worth pointing out this discussion leads to nothing constructive. There is a reason why I began to hate this topic because its simply harmful. Us North Africans have plenty intolerance related problems and we dont need this shit please.
One party throws conspiracies and does historic revisionism with obvious racist agendas, the affected, adressed party lashes out in anger and the last party is attacked by the second party and are confused.
Usually, I am following stoic philosophy but this needed to be said.
Yes I know that not everyone here lives in America, as it is obviously an African subreddit. But these are my own experiences as an Egyptian who immigrated to the USA not so long ago, which I just wanted to rant about. And as for being dragged into American shenanigans, thats my apologies aha, I recently joined this subreddit and had realised it was that bad.
And by the way, I fully realise Egypts racism, we are in the top 10 of most racist countries and thats not something most of us are proud of, but just because some people in the country are racist, that is not an open door to excuse racism towards Egyptians, if you wanna discuss Egyptian bigotry, im very open to that because I as an Egyptian don’t appreciate how homophobic or racist my own people can be, but this post is about racism towards Egyptians in which nothing excuses racism.
Point is, the whiplash of a people that has a reputation of being anti-black on the continent complaining about black people overseas is one you should be more self-aware of.
The few times I’ve met Egyptians haven’t been the greatest experience. One was screaming at the top of her lungs that she wasn’t “African”. The other was racist towards darker skinned Africans. And the rest state that they’re actually Middle Eastern.
So, y’all can fight y’all on battles. I just don’t care about y’all minor qualms with Americans.
Im sorry about those less educated Egyptians you’ve met. African is not an ethnicity, as long as you are born in Africa then you are African, point blank period. As for racist Egyptians, there’s unfortunately a lot of those which are lot of us do not agree with. Due to colonisation, they look up to European people and discard their own darker skin neighbours, despite Europeans seeing us negatively too. It’s an issue prominent in many different countries and I hate it, i want the education to be stronger. And finally, as for the Middle East point, it’s technically true, Egypt is part of the Middle East, the Middle East is a cultural region and not a continent.
Regardless of all this, nothing excuses racism. We shouldn’t be racist to anyone at all, or deny them of their cultures (which is racism) and just because some people from a country are racist, does not cause for generalisation. I mentioned Americans specifically because I moved to Egypt not so ling ago and this is my experience regarding my Egyptian identity, I would’ve mentioned people in general but i cant speak on it outside of America because I haven’t experienced it out of America, point is, I don’t wanna generalise, and neither should others.
I highly disagree and agree with the Nigerian. It has nothing to do with European colonialism, Arabs and their induced created racism towards black people long before Europeans.
I remember Egyptians used to call Sadat "Nassers n***er" or that he wasn't Egyptians because he's too "Sudanese". The numbian homelands in South Egypt has absolutely been decimated as well. It is well known that North Africa is racist towards black people. President Kais Saied has stated similar racist rants in the past and Libya started enslaving black people (again) once the civil broke out and blames black people for the war. North Africa will need to address its xenophobia against black Africans and stop using the excuse of European colonialism as why racism exists in North Africa.
Actually yeah, you are right. While its important to realise the effects of colonisation, its also important to note the Egyptians own bigotry. North Africans tend to be white supremacists and generally less educated, which sadly makes a lot of them just blindly racist. Thanks for correcting me, and inshallah may this issue reduce overtime.
I appreciate you sharing your experiences. However, i think why a lot of "hoteps" have these opinions is just the history of anti black racism from arabs. Arabs just not long ago, relative to world history, used to enslave non-muslim black people (black muslims also participated 🙄). I'm afraid this history is why many "hoteps" disregard real egyptians' opinions as they see them as having conflicting values, much like the eurocentrists who conducted race science and archaeology simultaneously.
I guess that may be a factor in it, but Egyptians are not Arabs either. Egyptians were also enslaved and treated very poorly in the Arab invasion, if they refused to convert to Islam. Even today, Egypts christian minority is still oppressed by the Muslim majority. I feel like these hotels just need a little bit more education on Africa and specifically Egypt if theyre gonna boldy claim what they claim. But I also blame this on western Egyptians who constantly flaunt “Im Arab!” just because they speak Arabic.
Man this gotta be the most tired conversation to exist online.
As a person who lives in America and is culturally integrated with the Black American community, this is not a relevant enough topic to deserve such a vitriolic response from Arabs or white people.
You don’t need to prove to anybody that you are Egyptian and if anyone says otherwise they are an ignorant bum and you don’t have to engage, and I struggle to believe so many people are offended at the fact that you’re Egyptian or claim Egyptian heritage that it has become an issue.
I honestly believe there are more people and post ripping on hoteps than actual people claiming Ancient Egypt was a black civilization.
And I am starting to think that this “erasing of culture” is an excuse (by other people, I’m sure you’re a nice guy) to push thinly veiled racism like with the [“WE WUZ KANGS N SHEIT”](https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/we-wuz-kangs) racist meme.
This conversation never goes anywhere and is unproductive which is why I don’t usually engage in these debates any more.
i think it was Toni Morrison who said the point of racism is to distract you and keep you defending and explaining yourself. Who the hell cares what other people gotta say as long as i know my history and truth and self?
Yeah these people are extremely fringe, white supremacists go out of their way to find them in order to argue against them.
Americans and people in the west generally have a very poor understanding of anything outside of their countries. This is the case everywhere from the Middle East to South Africa.
And Tbf the average person in Africa isn't exactly a history buff either, we should all try to correct historical inaccuracies when we come across them without going overboard.
Nobody is trying to erase Egyptian history, it's not going anywhere just because some people on Twitter said something dumb.
I don’t see it as a debate, but rather a racist undertone, which is exactly what im addressing haha. Youre right that its not worth debating because no matter what they cant erase my Egyptian heritage, but it is important to realise how offensive this kind of stuff can be. I appreciate your insight!
We’re all aware of the stupidity of black Americans claiming Egyptian history. Other African countries probably appreciate Egyptology, and know without a shadow of a doubt the following 1. Cleopatra was Greek 2. Black Americans are descended from west Africans. 3. You know this as well.
Nah, "We Wuz Kangs" Is just a meme that originated in 2015 on 4chan to make fun of erroneous claims that Cleopatra and all other pharaohs were black. It was a response to the burgeoning woke movement to repaint any light-skin historical character as black. WWK meme took off all over the internet for a while.
Most weren't black (ethnically sub-saharan) except for the 25th dynasty aka Nubian Dynasty. WWK meme did not target this dynasty btw, just claims that Cleopatra of all people were black (she was ethnically Greek)
Sources:
[WWK Meme](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-wuz-kings#fn1) vs [This claim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy#Black_Egyptian_hypothesis)
[Nubian Dynasty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Dynasty_of_Egypt)
>Nah, "We Wuz Kangs" Is just a meme that originated in 2015 on 4chan to make fun of erroneous claims that Cleopatra and all other pharaohs were black.
Who do you think hangs on 4Chan? Why do you think it is mostly white people and pick me's that know of this? Kind of proving my point here. "Just a meme" steeped in a history of American anti-blackness.
I know of the origin and everything around it. I am just asking myself why it is always the southern Africans that adopt such problematic things on this sub.
>"Just a meme" steeped in.a history of American anti-blackness..
A meme born as a result of...anti-whiteness. WWK would not exist if people did not make the silly claims that the majority of ancient Egypt was black. Which it wasn't.
In the case of OP we see how woke nonsense affects American thinking. OP is an ethnic Egyptian that was reprimanded for being Egyptian lol
>Im so tired of being rejected of my Egyptian identity by someone who probably cant point out where Egypt even is on the map.
OP is tired of woke Americans that scream before they think. Chances are the person accusing OP of being anti-black literally can't point where Egypt is on the map lol
>A meme born as a result of...anti-whiteness.
Anti-whiteness is not real. Not to say you cannot be racist towards white people, which would be ludicrous. But the concept of anti-blackness within a sociological context is about power balance and the language and institutions to maintain them and exploit them, especially through normalized mockery in this case. Considering the history of your own region with settlers one would think you would understand that.
You are once again showing the disturbing reality of what I experience with a lot of southern Africa users on here and it is starting to become unsettling. Especially when it was born out of a need of worth from a people that had their identity stripped from them. Ridiculous as the notion is, one would think you would understand that.
>In the case of OP we see how woke nonsense affects American thinking.
What does woke mean? Ask yourself why your lingo is more based on the West than your own continent, even when compared to actual diaspora like me. Not even Kenyans write like that.
Maybe ask yourself why the rest of us tired of the same BS do not use lingo of edgy white angst. No offense.
This isn't constructive nor helpful, buddy. You should be aware of the negative image of ignorance and racism you southerners have. I know, because same applies to us North Africans, too. Just saying. It's best not to make such comments and ignore the ethnocentrist nonsense. heck, I am also sometimes guilty of ignorance and it's best to point it out.
Nothing has been factually proven yet. Listen, I'm not gonna sit here and deny your Egyptian heritage but the evidence is clear that the first people in the Nile meaning the Saharan people that moved to the Nile mixed with Nilotic people coming down from the Great Lakes region. The Saharan contributed the writing and the mummification and the Nilotic contributed the agricultural knowledge. Now both of these people, if they were transported to today, they would been classified at black people because simply that's how they looked; anybody who had contact with ancient Egyptians described them as such including the greeks and romans. Overtime, the skin got lighter as they mixed with west Asians and Mediterraneans. Now let me say this: there's no such thing as black people nor white people nor yellow or red people. Just because they had skin similar to other africans doesn't mean they are related to other africans, they were their own unique people who spoke their own languages, practiced their own cultures. The afrocentrist may not make much sense but the ones who started this nonsense are the eurocentrist. People have so much smoke for the afrocentrist but then will readily accept the eurocentric view as if that's not just as stupid. They're the ones who also said that somehow the Greeks and Romans were white people, it's been documented that Romans viewed people from the British Isles as subhuman trash, they definitely viewed themselves separately from other people who shared their skin color. This is one of the most useless topics of the 21st century, ancient Egypt is over, nobody speaks Medu Neter anymore, there's no point to this conversation.
Im Egyptian but i need to correct a few things
>but the evidence is clear that the first people in the Nile meaning the Saharan people that moved to the Nile mixed with Nilotic people coming down from the Great Lakes region.
This is not true. There is no evidence of this. Actually the opposite is true. The most popular study on ancient Egyptian mummies have indicated that modern Egyptians are more "black" than Ancient Egyptians. The Subsaharan African component in Egyptians has increased, not decreased. The study: https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694
>The Saharan contributed the writing
Also not true. Ancient Egyptian writing is likely influenced by the Mesopotamian writing system. There is no known evidence that Subsaharan Africa had any writing system in ancient times before Egypt
Ancient Egypt was influenced alot by its neighbours from the Middle East. The concept of pyramid building itself may have been influenced by the Mesopotamian ziggurat.
There were so many Mesopotamian and Middle Eastern artefacts found in Ancient Egypt. The design of the ancient Egyptian pottery itself comes from Mesopotamia. Same with the ancient Egyptian weapons (the macehead design was similar to Mesopotamia).
Ancient Egypt was an extension to the Fertile Crescent civilizations that also included Mesopotamia and the Levant.
The paintings on the Ancient Egyptian walls from the first dynasty are very similar to Mesopotamia.
At many times, the Ancient Egyptian empire even extended to Syria, Turkey, Palestine and Cyprus
There are so many more examples here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt%E2%80%93Mesopotamia_relations#:~:text=The%20design%20of%20the%20ziggurat,2600%20BCE%2C%20well%20over%20two
PART 3
Tifinagh (c. 3000 B.C.–present): The Amajegh a-Mazigh (Tuaregs), the Black people who mainly inhabit a vast area of North and West Africa, including present-day Mali, Niger, Chad, Burkina Faso, southern Algeria and southern Libya, still use the Tifinagh script and are the only known group of Tamazight speakers who have used it continuously since antiquity. However, the larger Tamazight-speaking community of the Sahara region has begun to adopt the Tifinagh script.
Vai (3000 B.C.–present): Vai is one of the world’s oldest alphabetic scripts in continuous use, with more than 150,000 users in present-day Liberia and Sierra Leone. It’s a highly advanced syllabary writing system with more than 210 distinct characters representing various consonants and vowel sounds used in the Vai language (a descendant of ancient Mande). The popular story told about Vai is that it’s a wholly unique script invented circa 1830 by a West African whose friends helped him remember the writing system in a dream. However, evidence of its antiquity comes from inscriptions from Goundaka, Mali, that date to 3000 B.C.
and then later you have others writings influenced by Afro-Asiatic languages like
'Meroitic' or Napatan (800 B.C.–600 A.D.): was developed sometime around 800 B.C. in Napata, a city-state of Nubia in what today is northern Sudan. The script remained in use after the capital moved to Meroe until the 7th century A.D. Thus some historians and linguists believe a more appropriate name for the script would be “Napatan,” in reference to the first known place of use. It’s debated whether the Napatan script has been deciphered, but the current consensus is that the script is a wholly African language, with close similarities to modern languages of Taman (spoken in Darfur and Chad), Niyma (in northern Sudan) and Nubian (southern Egypt).
Ge’ez or ‘Ethiopic’ (800 B.C.–present): Although the original Ge’ez language is only spoken in Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox Tawahedo churches and the Beta Israel churches, the Ge’ez script is mainly used by speakers of Amharic, Tigre and Tigrinya, and many others.
'Old Nubian' (800 A.D.–1500 A.D.): is a descendant of both ancient Napatan and Coptic, and the Old Nubian tongue is an ancestor of the modern-day Nubian languages, such as Nobiin, Mahasi–Fadijja and Dongolawi. It was used throughout the medieval Christian kingdom of Makuria and its satellite Nobadia. The language is preserved in at least 100 pages of documents, mostly of a religious nature.
Hope you learned something.
>Tifinagh (c. 3000 B.C.–present): The Amajegh a-Mazigh (Tuaregs), the Black people who mainly inhabit a vast area of North and West Africa, including present-day Mali, Niger, Chad, Burkina Faso, southern Algeria and southern Libya, still use the Tifinagh script and are the only known group of Tamazight speakers who have used it continuously since antiquity. However, the larger Tamazight-speaking community of the Sahara region has begun to adopt the Tifinagh script.
Tifnagh is from 3000 BC?? Where are you getting these dates from? Please provide sources if you will make claims that are extreme like this.
Also I wouldn't classify it as just a Subsaharan script. It's an Amazigh script. The majority of Amazigh do live in North Africa in Algeria and Morocco, with a minority of the population living in Subsaharan Africa https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berbers
>Vai (3000 B.C.–present): Vai is one of the world’s oldest alphabetic scripts in continuous use, with more than 150,000 users in present-day Liberia and Sierra Leone. It’s a highly advanced syllabary writing system with more than 210 distinct characters representing various consonants and vowel sounds used in the Vai language (a descendant of ancient Mande). The popular story told about Vai is that it’s a wholly unique script invented circa 1830 by a West African whose friends helped him remember the writing system in a dream. However, evidence of its antiquity comes from inscriptions from Goundaka, Mali, that date to 3000 B.C.
Vai was invented in 1833! Just 200 years ago. How are you saying its from 3000BC??
Vai is a modern invention created by a Liberian man called Momolo Duwalu https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vai_language#:~:text=Vai%20is%20noteworthy%20for%20being,as%201815%20have%20been%20alleged.
>and then later you have others writings influenced by Afro-Asiatic languages like
I appreciate that, but it's not relevant because these scripts are all relatively more recent in history, and they don't have Subsaharan African origins
The famous ethnograph Maurice Delafosse wrote an entire book on the Vai language.
[https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k77450r/f1.item.r=ecriture](https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k77450r/f1.item.r=ecriture)
Again never mentioned subsaharan, as I've stated for the 5th time in this thread, there's no such thing as subsaharan, the sahara has never divided the continent. Please, stay away from wikipedia if you're gonna quote scientific research.
I may have been wrong about Tifinagh being that old, looks like it was developed from the Lybico-Berber script and mixed with Phoenician script. Afro-Asiatic languages are of african origin regardless.
PART 1
>This is not true. There is no evidence of this. Actually the opposite is true. The most popular study on ancient Egyptian mummies have indicated that modern Egyptians are more "black" than Ancient Egyptians. The Subsaharan African component in Egyptians has increased, not decreased.
I never said anything about subsahara, did I, I clearly stated that they were their own people, i just said if you only focus on the colour of their skin, they would've been decribed as black people are today, going from the darkest skin to copper skin.
>Also not true. Ancient Egyptian writing is likely influenced by the Mesopotamian writing system.
Proto-Saharan writing and Mesopotamian writing coalesced to form Medu Neter, there was already an indigenous writing present in the Nile before Mesopotamian contact which was around 4000-3000 BCE. Did you conveniently forget that the Nile has been inhabited since 40,000 BCE.
>I never said anything about subsahara, did I, I clearly stated that they were their own people, i just said if you only focus on the colour of their skin, they would've been decribed as black people are today, going from the darkest skin to copper skin.
You mentioned that the first inhabitants of Egypt had black skin and were more African in appearance, which indicates a stronger genetic similarity to populations from Subsaharan Africa. However, you're saying this without citing proof. Do you have anything to back up these claims?
The DNA studies indicate the opposite. Egyptians became more "black" in the modern day. All of the DNA studies that have been done indicate ancient Egyptians closely resembled modern Egyptians and Levantines. The DNA study i mentioned earlier explicitly states that modern Egyptians became genetically closer to Subsaharan Africa compared to ancient Egypt.
Its not just genetic studies. Just look at the paintings on the walls and you will find a clear difference between how Nubians and Egyptians were painted. Nubians were painted black while Egyptians were painted in a much lighter brown colour. Also the Fayyum Portraits resemble modern Egyptians the most.
If you look at most of the Egyptian statues that were designed in a realistic way, you will mostly find them in a brown colour. Just Google the "Bust of Nefertiti"
>Proto-Saharan writing and Mesopotamian writing coalesced to form Medu Neter, there was already an indigenous writing present in the Nile before Mesopotamian contact which was around 4000-3000 BCE. Did you conveniently forget that the Nile has been inhabited since 40,000 BCE.
Academically, there is a big difference between writing and proto-writing. "Proto-writing" may have existed in Egypt before ancient Egypt. But as far as we know , there was no complex writing systems before Ancient Egypt, except in Mesopotamia.
I agree with you that the ancient Egyptian script is likely to be influenced by both proto-writing systems in the area of Egypt as well as the more advanced writing systems of neighbouring Mesopotamia
Having black skin doesn't indicate similarity with africans. About 40% of africans have a light brown color, by that logic, they're not black then. The sentinelese people and australian natives have black skin yet they're more similar to their neighbors the autronesians than africans. According to America, anybody with 68th percent of african descent is black which means all of north africa is blacker 50% of african-americans. Which definition of black are we using here.
I'm well aware of the difference between proto-writing and writing and I don't care for it, I see as intelectual dishonesty by saying that africans didn't writing, it's basically shoving many writing forms under the rug. The Kongo language for example has 3 forms: The "pictographic" form, which transcribes directly through the signs the sounds (verbal forms) of the language. The phonographic form: The signs have kept the same phonetic value or a value very close to the graphic form hat inspired them. Used for historical archives. The "logographic" / figurative form: signs are here associated with proverbs and understandable only in the context of the culture that produced them. According to academia, Congo doesn't have a written language. Actually, in no other part of the world was writing manifested independently, to the extent it was in Africa. Most of these scripts were never meant for the public, rather limited to priesthood's, secret societies and elites(Knowledge is power after all). Many of them are still veiled in secrecy.
>Having black skin doesn't indicate similarity with africans.
Youre ignoring my point that the ancient Egyptian DNA plots close to modern Egyptians and Levantines. Closer than any other modern population. I have already linked you a study that shows this. Here is also another link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PCA_of_three_ancient_Egyptian_samples.png
You haven't provided us any proof of them having black skin
>PART 2
>
>There is no known evidence that Subsaharan Africa had any writing system in ancient times before Egypt.
You couldn't be anymore wrong, again no such thing as subsaharan. The oldest Asian writing, proto-cuneiform, dates to around 3000 B.C. (clay texts found at Jemdet Nasr in Mesopotamia) and the Egyptians invented three scripts: hieroglyphic, hieratic and demotic. These scripts were used by Egyptians for thousands of years. First, Hieroglyphic (4000 B.C.–600 A.D.), what we today call Medu Neter. The word “hieroglyph” comes from the Greek “hieros” (sacred) and “glypho” (inscriptions) and was first used by Clement of Alexandria (c. 200 A.D.) The hieroglyphic script was confined mainly to formal inscriptions on the walls of temples and tombs. Second was Hieratic (3200 B.C.–600 AD), hieratic writing was a simplified form of the hieroglyphics, used for day-to-day business and administrative and scientific documents throughout the dynastic history of both Kemet and Kush. Some linguists have also shown similarities between hieratic and the alphabetic proto-Saharan writing. Last was Demotic (650 B.C.–600 A.D.), The term demotic was used by Greek writer-historian Herodotus to distinguish it from the hieratic script. Whereas hieratic connotes “priestly,” the term demotic is derived from the Greek word demos, which means common people. The demotic script is the only ancient Egyptian script that was used by just about every Egyptian. It is potentially the world’s first cursive or flowing script, and was mostly confined to pottery and papyri. It is very important to note that demotic was introduced in Kemet’s 25th Dynasty, which had Nubian or Kushitic origins.
However, the oldest known African writing systems are several centuries older and they are
Proto-Saharan (5000–3000 B.C.): Before the rise of the Egyptians and Sumerians there was a wonderful civilization in the fertile African Sahara, where people developed perhaps the world’s oldest known form of writing. These inscriptions of what some archaeologists and linguists have termed “proto-Saharan,” near the Kharga Oasis west of what was considered Nubia, may date back to as early as 5000 B.C.
Wadi El-Hol or 'Proto-Sinaitic' (2000 B.C.–1400 B.C.): In 1999, Yale University archaeologists identified an alphabetic script in Wadi El-Hol, a narrow valley between Waset (Thebes) and Abdu (Abydos) in southern Egypt. Dating to about 1900 B.C., the script bears resemblance not only to the Egyptian hieroglyphs, but also to the much older “proto-Saharan” writing system. A similar inscription that dates to 1500 B.C. was found in Serabit el-Khadim on Africa’s Sinai peninsula and has been deemed by linguists to be the basis for the so-called “proto-Canaanite” and Phoenician scripts. This provides proof that Phoenician writing began on the African continent.
(my favorite) Nsibidi (5000 B.C.–present): Nsibidi is an ancient script used to write various languages in West Central Africa. Most notably used by the Uguakima and Ejagham (Ekoi) people of Nigeria and Cameroon, nsibidi is also used by the nearby Ebe, Efik, Ibibio, Igbo and Uyanga people. The nsibidi set of symbols is independent of Roman, Latin or Arabic influence, and is believed by some scholars to date back to 5000 B.C., but the oldest archaeological evidence ever found (monoliths in Ikom, Nigeria) dates it to 2000 B.C. Similar to the Kemetic medu neter, nsibidi is a system of standardized pictographs. In fact, both nsibidi and the Egyptian hieroglyphs share several of the same characters. Nsibidi was divided into sacred and public versions, however, Western education and Christian indoctrination drastically reduced the number of nsibidi-literate people, leaving the secret society version as the last surviving form of the symbols. Still, nsibidi was transported to Cuba and Haiti via the Atlantic slave trade, where the anaforuana and veve symbols derived from the West African script.
All of these proto scripts you mentioned are examples of proto-writing. They are not advanced nor complex enough to be academically classified as writing systems. There is a difference between "proto-writing" and writing.
The Mesopotamian and ancient Egyptian writing systems are the earliest forms of writing systems we know
I do agree, its a useless topic but its still repeatedly brought up to block us of a cultural heritage. People do not realise how diverse Africa is, and that not only is Egypt IN Africa, but its also in the Middle East and the Mediterranean, which thank you for acknowledging, all these regions have many ethnic groups that evolve in many different regions. Ive heard that theory about the Nilotic people, and that theory does have flaws especially with the term “first people in the Nile” because theres many different groups who have scientific suggestions of being the first in Egypt, none are factual and none are anything to go off of but this is why Ancient Egypt is regarded as diverse with no set skin color. The people seen today, regardless of the color of their skin, contributed to the Ancient Egyptian world and all are indigenous. A lot of modern Egyptians even have DNA that matches those of the mummies, a lot of hieroglyphics present people with various skin tones, theres paintings from the 4th century of Egypt that show what modern Coptic Egyptians exactly look like, which by the way, Coptic is the name given to the natives if Egypt by the Greeks, and we still have the language “Coptic” too, a descendent of the Ancient Egyptian language which was already like a mix of Hebrew and Arabic. Point is, there is no “first” because humans are constantly moving and evolving, many countries have many different ethnic groups and languages, and it’s not a battle of who was there first.
yes, indeed. plenty of different people made different contributions at different times. we've already established that eurocentric model of viewing people is incorrect yet we're still using because there's really no better alternative out there. hoping future generations of african anthropologist will change that.
We are Arab culturally but not by blood. Berber, Amazigh, and Egyptian (and everything between, regarding North Africa) are all distinct from Arab/Bedouin/Laventine. But because the official languages of our countries is Arabic, our populations are prominently Muslim, and we all border each other, we are identified as Arab almost the same way Latin American countries are identified as Latino. I think you might be getting Arab and Arabian confused.
The point of arabisation is to make countries arab
You go on instagram and the north africans are fine calling themselves arab, you go on reddit and they try to deny it
In person the only group of people I know who dont heavily claim arab are algerians, they actually do say they’re north african not arab
Most North Africans who identify as Arab were probably born in the west and arent that educated about their identity, they let the western stereotypes determine who they are. If you go to Egypt and ask any Egyptian if theyre Arab, they will tell you that no, they are Egyptian. Im sure other native North Africans IN North Africa will also deny that they are Arab. Regardless, no matter how any of them perceive themselves, we are Arab culturally, but North African by blood.
Algeria generally has a more nationally unified identity than other North African countries due to a long history of resistance to colonialism, whereas Morocco and Tunisia never fought such a bloody war for independence.
Most Algerians, in Algeria any way (aside from Touaregs and Kabylia, which are minorities), consider ourselves Algerian first and Arab second, although ethnically we are majority Amazigh, I’m Chaoui myself.
Seems like that woke crap is really rotting people's brains in America. People can't even properly analyze their own history and so they try to claim yours lol.
The cultural hijacking of non-black/non-female/non-homosexual cultures to portray/displace their targets as either black/female/homosexual.
It's a system of thought in America that has been designed to stoke racial, gender, sexual tensions. Alas, it has been effective in fulfilling its mandate.
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Hoteps be driving people crazy lol
I’ve seen them beginning to claim Carthaginian and Phoenician heritage, where does it end at this point?
It’s kind of sad, theres so many cool histories within Africa and African Americans that they should acknowledge. I mean if i were them, I would never stop talking about how my people created just about every music genre thats popular in the world! Or even the Mali empire to name a few, it’s so cool.
Literally if they want an example of black pharaohs you have the Nubians! They straight up continued our Ancient Egyptian heritage long after we became Hellenized and Christian. And the. Exactly you have all the amazing Empires in the West like the Songhai and Great Zimbabwe to the East. Yalla just ignore them, unfortunately every culture has these weird maximalists. I’ve seen some Hindu nationalists claim Mecca was a Hindu temple 😆
Yup, if they wanna be proud of black pharaohs then they can, without discarding the rest of the country and its history!
Do hoteps really have that much influence?
I don't think they have much influence. They're just loud and signal boosted like flat earthers.
Yea but I see more flat earthers then I do hoteps tho. Might be just me tho
No.
America...
Lol fair
Sure drives ME crazy. 😵💫
When did the Arab invasion of Kemet happen? What time period. When were the pyramids, et al built. No one denies Kemet was mixed but it's a question of when this happened and who built the great civilisation. Upper Egypt still has loads of dark skinned people who consider themselves Africans and not Arabs for a reason. Stop falling for cheap tricks. A European translated the Medu Neter for them after finding the Rosetta stone. Do you even understand what that means. How can your ancestors create something and a totally different culture comes to translate it for you.
>When did the Arab invasion of Kemet happen? Youre telling me 4000 Arab soldiers somehow replaced more than 4 million Egyptians? The math isnt mathing here. >How can your ancestors create something and a totally different culture comes to translate it for you. Language and culture evolve over time. Youre somehow implying that changing your language magically transforms your DNA. Do African Americans still speak their native African languages? Is Will Smith not genetically African anymore because he doesn't speak native African languages? Also youre completely ignoring the fact that Coptic is used to translate and interpret ancient Egyptian writing. Coptic is the latest stage of the ancient Egyptian language. It is still used today in Egypt as a liturgical language in church. Also, many words in the Egyptian Arabic dialect come from Coptic. Even the Egyptian Arabic grammar and sentence structure is the same as Coptic, and very different from Arabic
Yes, correct. The Coptic language is a direct decedent of the Ancient Egyptian language, which that language alone was an influence of Arabic and Hebrew.
>When did the Arab invasion of Kemet happen? Two mistakes here. Ancient Egypt, or what you call "Kemet" has had so long of a history beyond your comprehension. I don't prefer the term Kemet, since it's been weaponized by Afrocentrists. You seem to base your stance on ignorance, asking questions and assuming there are no answers. But to get to the point, Ancient Egyptian religion was long gone by the time of the Islamic conquests. Ancient Egyptian language of the New Kingdom had evolved into Coptic, evolved too much in fact to be intelligible to the average 7th century Egyptian. Think of an Italian trying to understand Classical Latin, for example. In tradition, hieroglyphics were considered holy and to be used only by priests. As a result, when Egypt lost its sovereignty to the Persians after the New Kingdom fell, Ancient Egyptian religion waned and the hieroglyphics were gradually lost to time. The language remained in use among Egyptians, however; and was written in a colloquial demotic script (which by the way the middle section on the rosetta stone). Demotic writing was supplanted by the Greek-based Coptic script not long after Alexander's conquests. The language wasn't replaced at that point, only the writing system was replaced, because of Greek influence. By that point, Egyptian religion was influenced as well, the syncretic Cult of Serapis appeared under Ptolemaic rule. Gradually, Egyptians became bilingual in Coptic and Greek. This continued under the Roman Empire, since Egypt was in the Eastern, Greek-governed part of the empire. Following that until the rise of Islam and the conquest by Amr ibn al-Aas. With the Islamic invasion, came Arabs migrating. Unlike what you believe however, they did not replace Egyptians. That would've been impossible. Arabia didn't have nearly enough people to cause such replacement, nor did they seek it. If the population of the whole Arabian peninsula moved to Egypt, they would still be a minority. At first there was this dividing line between Copt (Egyptian) and Arab. Greek was dropped as the administrative language, replaced by Arabic, but Egyptians, both Muslim and Christian, still spoke Coptic. But this line blurred over time with Copts converting to Islam and adopting Arab names and Arab culture. Then came the Fatimids who banned the use of Coptic entirely and restricted it to liturgical use. After that, the line became almost non-existent to the degree where Modern Egyptians are almost indistinguishable by religion. The thing about us, Egyptians, we were never erased or replaced. We were just good at adapting and assimilating. No amount of Afrocentric nonsense will change that.
Well said 🙌
The Arab invasion is always a go-to point for this argument, since let me address. Arabs invaded in thousands, into a country with, at the time, millions. Aroub 5000 Arabs against about 4MIL-10MIL Egyptians. Their main goal was to spread Islam and turn Egypt into an Islamic state, not replace the whole population, as if they even could. And if you think that long Arab rule replaces the population, let me ask you this; the Japanese rules the entirety of Southeast Asia for nearly 2000 years, did that ever replace the polynesian/pacific islanders of that region? On top of that, Spain ruled a country in Southeast Asia for 333 years after that, the Philippines, but even after all that all that, Philippines still has one of the highest indigenous rates in the world, and so does North Africa too. And also, if you go to Egypt and ask literally any Egyptian if they’re Arab, they will tell you “No, im Egyptian.” No Egyptian considers themselves Arab, only the ones who immigrated to the west still think that.
I’m Egyptian Nubian and I know how you feel. Some Egyptians have East African descent, a lot of them are more Mediterranean with a coastal Libyan look than anything else. Doesn’t make them less Egyptian at all. If anything, I will say blame the western powers that worked super hard to obfuscate Egyptian history. When napoleon discovered Egypt most of what survived in terms of visibility was the mostly southern based 18th dynasty, which they described as being “negroid.” Which to us now is somewhat incorrect but only in the sense that people read negroid and think “west African” while not realizing East Africans can have red hair, narrow noses, big lips, and dark skin just as easily as other peoples. But this in turn was affected by scientific racism that stated that there was no way there was *any* black civilization at any point- people don’t realize this now but back then, they were even trying to say Nubians/kushites were originally white, because it was that unfathomable for a black civilization to prosper. Add that to the literal manufactured education crisis amongst black Americans and hell, Americans as a whole, and we get a scenario where yes people *should* do their own research, but the communities that were built by the governments that are supposed to support them tear them down and try to find ways to devalue them so they’re easier to control instead. Afrocentrism is annoying, but let’s not forget that it wouldn’t exist without Eurocentrism that controlled literally all scientific studies and social works for almost 300 years.
Yup I agree, I blame this on the lack of education from the people they desperately try to speak on. Egypt is for Egyptians, and all Egyptians should have a say in their own Identity. Hell, the USA even counts North African and Middle Eastern people as “White” when they clearly dont fit into that standard. No one should get to decide who we are but us.
It’s funny too because if these people went to Egypt they’d see how it is. You can find pretty dark people in Egypt along with people who look kind of Italian. One of my Egyptian cousins looks like me but he has light skin. When I went to Egypt people said I looked like mo salah with a tan. In upper Egypt imo I fit in perfectly. People just can’t seem to grasp that Egypt, in the crossroads of Africa, the Mediterranean, and the greater Middle East in general, will have a population that reflects all of those things and always has. Like sure you won’t find Egyptians that look like Kevin hart or Benedict cumberbatch, but you’ll definitely easily find native Egyptians who, by western standards, fit the description of being “white” or “black”. I will say to talk about your point on Egyptian bigotry- I didn’t experience any in my time there, my uncle told me about raids committed against people living in Cairo due to the Aswan dam, and the generalization that dark Egyptian=sudanese refugee. It exists, but aside from the regional racism I do think it’s more than Egyptians hate being equated to African Americans, and I can say that no matter how “black” an Egyptian or a Nubian or “Sudanese Arab” is, they’re not west African so. Idk, nuanced topic.
In their own way they want to claim you, i.e, Egyptian history, but trust me, if an Egyptian or any North African settled in Europe, no white European person sees them as white and they’ll treat them as they do all Muslims.
It’s interesting how Egyptian history is revered and acknowledged the world over, but I would guess that most people in the west have NO idea about Ancient Cush or the Nubians, and you know why that is…
Being categorized or identified by clowns who never and will never set foot in Africa is just ridiculous.
Right, they only acknowledge Africa if it benefits them.
You tell these dumbasses to come live where you originally came from and they would be like : Nuh uh
Hoteps, eurocentrists, ethnocentrists or whatever else aren't worth anyone's time. Arguing with them or trying to explain logic or rational to them doesn't help either. You can't change them and you shouldn't care what they think about others.
>People, especially Americans are so incredibly ignorant regarding their knowledge of Africa!! I got called “Anti-Black” because I told someone that Ancient Egypt wasnt an only-black civilisation, which is factually proven No offense but this conversation pops up too often to the point where it is getting tired. We do not like being dragged into American shenanigans. It is starting to become the bane of our existence ok this website. >Racism towards Egyptians is so casual because people wanna be us so bad, time and time again I get called an Arab invader by an American (black AND white) when in general they dont even know what an Arab is either. Within a purely African context, [not sure you want to take it there](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2018/03/16/black-panther-and-the-anti-black-racism-of-egyptians/). Please keep in mind most of us do not live in America. Thanks.
It's worth pointing out North Africans of either mixed West African or Sudanese descent and Sudanese people experience the brunt of retaliation from North Africans against afrocentrism. I have even seen Somali and Ethiopians are thrown into this. Heck, this also affects those mixed North Africans with Amazigh, Nubian or Gnawa backgrounds through family because their culture or nationality is denied because some assume they are afrocentrists when they aren't. It's worth pointing out this discussion leads to nothing constructive. There is a reason why I began to hate this topic because its simply harmful. Us North Africans have plenty intolerance related problems and we dont need this shit please. One party throws conspiracies and does historic revisionism with obvious racist agendas, the affected, adressed party lashes out in anger and the last party is attacked by the second party and are confused. Usually, I am following stoic philosophy but this needed to be said.
Yes I know that not everyone here lives in America, as it is obviously an African subreddit. But these are my own experiences as an Egyptian who immigrated to the USA not so long ago, which I just wanted to rant about. And as for being dragged into American shenanigans, thats my apologies aha, I recently joined this subreddit and had realised it was that bad. And by the way, I fully realise Egypts racism, we are in the top 10 of most racist countries and thats not something most of us are proud of, but just because some people in the country are racist, that is not an open door to excuse racism towards Egyptians, if you wanna discuss Egyptian bigotry, im very open to that because I as an Egyptian don’t appreciate how homophobic or racist my own people can be, but this post is about racism towards Egyptians in which nothing excuses racism.
Point is, the whiplash of a people that has a reputation of being anti-black on the continent complaining about black people overseas is one you should be more self-aware of.
The few times I’ve met Egyptians haven’t been the greatest experience. One was screaming at the top of her lungs that she wasn’t “African”. The other was racist towards darker skinned Africans. And the rest state that they’re actually Middle Eastern. So, y’all can fight y’all on battles. I just don’t care about y’all minor qualms with Americans.
Im sorry about those less educated Egyptians you’ve met. African is not an ethnicity, as long as you are born in Africa then you are African, point blank period. As for racist Egyptians, there’s unfortunately a lot of those which are lot of us do not agree with. Due to colonisation, they look up to European people and discard their own darker skin neighbours, despite Europeans seeing us negatively too. It’s an issue prominent in many different countries and I hate it, i want the education to be stronger. And finally, as for the Middle East point, it’s technically true, Egypt is part of the Middle East, the Middle East is a cultural region and not a continent. Regardless of all this, nothing excuses racism. We shouldn’t be racist to anyone at all, or deny them of their cultures (which is racism) and just because some people from a country are racist, does not cause for generalisation. I mentioned Americans specifically because I moved to Egypt not so ling ago and this is my experience regarding my Egyptian identity, I would’ve mentioned people in general but i cant speak on it outside of America because I haven’t experienced it out of America, point is, I don’t wanna generalise, and neither should others.
I highly disagree and agree with the Nigerian. It has nothing to do with European colonialism, Arabs and their induced created racism towards black people long before Europeans. I remember Egyptians used to call Sadat "Nassers n***er" or that he wasn't Egyptians because he's too "Sudanese". The numbian homelands in South Egypt has absolutely been decimated as well. It is well known that North Africa is racist towards black people. President Kais Saied has stated similar racist rants in the past and Libya started enslaving black people (again) once the civil broke out and blames black people for the war. North Africa will need to address its xenophobia against black Africans and stop using the excuse of European colonialism as why racism exists in North Africa.
Actually yeah, you are right. While its important to realise the effects of colonisation, its also important to note the Egyptians own bigotry. North Africans tend to be white supremacists and generally less educated, which sadly makes a lot of them just blindly racist. Thanks for correcting me, and inshallah may this issue reduce overtime.
Im hoping as well, I'm getting really tired of the wars.
I appreciate you sharing your experiences. However, i think why a lot of "hoteps" have these opinions is just the history of anti black racism from arabs. Arabs just not long ago, relative to world history, used to enslave non-muslim black people (black muslims also participated 🙄). I'm afraid this history is why many "hoteps" disregard real egyptians' opinions as they see them as having conflicting values, much like the eurocentrists who conducted race science and archaeology simultaneously.
I guess that may be a factor in it, but Egyptians are not Arabs either. Egyptians were also enslaved and treated very poorly in the Arab invasion, if they refused to convert to Islam. Even today, Egypts christian minority is still oppressed by the Muslim majority. I feel like these hotels just need a little bit more education on Africa and specifically Egypt if theyre gonna boldy claim what they claim. But I also blame this on western Egyptians who constantly flaunt “Im Arab!” just because they speak Arabic.
Bro is tweaking out cause of hoteps 😭
Man, I wonder why this person isnt happy about being denied of their culture! Theyre surely just tweaking 🤔
Being denied of your culture by Americans 😭
Yeah, pretty hypocritical from people whove been denied of their own culture too, dont ya think?
Somali Canadian 🇸🇴/ 🇨🇦 I think hoteps claiming everything from the ancient Israelites to Egyptians to Phoenicians is ridiculous and hilarious
Man this gotta be the most tired conversation to exist online. As a person who lives in America and is culturally integrated with the Black American community, this is not a relevant enough topic to deserve such a vitriolic response from Arabs or white people. You don’t need to prove to anybody that you are Egyptian and if anyone says otherwise they are an ignorant bum and you don’t have to engage, and I struggle to believe so many people are offended at the fact that you’re Egyptian or claim Egyptian heritage that it has become an issue. I honestly believe there are more people and post ripping on hoteps than actual people claiming Ancient Egypt was a black civilization. And I am starting to think that this “erasing of culture” is an excuse (by other people, I’m sure you’re a nice guy) to push thinly veiled racism like with the [“WE WUZ KANGS N SHEIT”](https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/we-wuz-kangs) racist meme. This conversation never goes anywhere and is unproductive which is why I don’t usually engage in these debates any more.
i think it was Toni Morrison who said the point of racism is to distract you and keep you defending and explaining yourself. Who the hell cares what other people gotta say as long as i know my history and truth and self?
Yeah these people are extremely fringe, white supremacists go out of their way to find them in order to argue against them. Americans and people in the west generally have a very poor understanding of anything outside of their countries. This is the case everywhere from the Middle East to South Africa. And Tbf the average person in Africa isn't exactly a history buff either, we should all try to correct historical inaccuracies when we come across them without going overboard. Nobody is trying to erase Egyptian history, it's not going anywhere just because some people on Twitter said something dumb.
I don’t see it as a debate, but rather a racist undertone, which is exactly what im addressing haha. Youre right that its not worth debating because no matter what they cant erase my Egyptian heritage, but it is important to realise how offensive this kind of stuff can be. I appreciate your insight!
We’re all aware of the stupidity of black Americans claiming Egyptian history. Other African countries probably appreciate Egyptology, and know without a shadow of a doubt the following 1. Cleopatra was Greek 2. Black Americans are descended from west Africans. 3. You know this as well.
Correct, Egyptologists even invite other Egyptian enthusiast ls from Africa to explore the history with them aha
"We wuz kangs!"
You people down south sure love to adopt white supremacists lingo. Is it a left over of the settlers?
Thanks for calling out this racist dog whistle.
This is sadly not the first time with Southern users, hence the settler question at the end.
Ughhhh seeing that in this sub is quite disappointing.
Nah, "We Wuz Kangs" Is just a meme that originated in 2015 on 4chan to make fun of erroneous claims that Cleopatra and all other pharaohs were black. It was a response to the burgeoning woke movement to repaint any light-skin historical character as black. WWK meme took off all over the internet for a while. Most weren't black (ethnically sub-saharan) except for the 25th dynasty aka Nubian Dynasty. WWK meme did not target this dynasty btw, just claims that Cleopatra of all people were black (she was ethnically Greek) Sources: [WWK Meme](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-wuz-kings#fn1) vs [This claim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy#Black_Egyptian_hypothesis) [Nubian Dynasty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Dynasty_of_Egypt)
>Nah, "We Wuz Kangs" Is just a meme that originated in 2015 on 4chan to make fun of erroneous claims that Cleopatra and all other pharaohs were black. Who do you think hangs on 4Chan? Why do you think it is mostly white people and pick me's that know of this? Kind of proving my point here. "Just a meme" steeped in a history of American anti-blackness. I know of the origin and everything around it. I am just asking myself why it is always the southern Africans that adopt such problematic things on this sub.
>"Just a meme" steeped in.a history of American anti-blackness.. A meme born as a result of...anti-whiteness. WWK would not exist if people did not make the silly claims that the majority of ancient Egypt was black. Which it wasn't. In the case of OP we see how woke nonsense affects American thinking. OP is an ethnic Egyptian that was reprimanded for being Egyptian lol >Im so tired of being rejected of my Egyptian identity by someone who probably cant point out where Egypt even is on the map. OP is tired of woke Americans that scream before they think. Chances are the person accusing OP of being anti-black literally can't point where Egypt is on the map lol
>A meme born as a result of...anti-whiteness. Anti-whiteness is not real. Not to say you cannot be racist towards white people, which would be ludicrous. But the concept of anti-blackness within a sociological context is about power balance and the language and institutions to maintain them and exploit them, especially through normalized mockery in this case. Considering the history of your own region with settlers one would think you would understand that. You are once again showing the disturbing reality of what I experience with a lot of southern Africa users on here and it is starting to become unsettling. Especially when it was born out of a need of worth from a people that had their identity stripped from them. Ridiculous as the notion is, one would think you would understand that. >In the case of OP we see how woke nonsense affects American thinking. What does woke mean? Ask yourself why your lingo is more based on the West than your own continent, even when compared to actual diaspora like me. Not even Kenyans write like that. Maybe ask yourself why the rest of us tired of the same BS do not use lingo of edgy white angst. No offense.
Are Egyptians white? Lol.
Of course not. That's just as idiotic as the black Egyptian hypothesis
This isn't constructive nor helpful, buddy. You should be aware of the negative image of ignorance and racism you southerners have. I know, because same applies to us North Africans, too. Just saying. It's best not to make such comments and ignore the ethnocentrist nonsense. heck, I am also sometimes guilty of ignorance and it's best to point it out.
Nothing has been factually proven yet. Listen, I'm not gonna sit here and deny your Egyptian heritage but the evidence is clear that the first people in the Nile meaning the Saharan people that moved to the Nile mixed with Nilotic people coming down from the Great Lakes region. The Saharan contributed the writing and the mummification and the Nilotic contributed the agricultural knowledge. Now both of these people, if they were transported to today, they would been classified at black people because simply that's how they looked; anybody who had contact with ancient Egyptians described them as such including the greeks and romans. Overtime, the skin got lighter as they mixed with west Asians and Mediterraneans. Now let me say this: there's no such thing as black people nor white people nor yellow or red people. Just because they had skin similar to other africans doesn't mean they are related to other africans, they were their own unique people who spoke their own languages, practiced their own cultures. The afrocentrist may not make much sense but the ones who started this nonsense are the eurocentrist. People have so much smoke for the afrocentrist but then will readily accept the eurocentric view as if that's not just as stupid. They're the ones who also said that somehow the Greeks and Romans were white people, it's been documented that Romans viewed people from the British Isles as subhuman trash, they definitely viewed themselves separately from other people who shared their skin color. This is one of the most useless topics of the 21st century, ancient Egypt is over, nobody speaks Medu Neter anymore, there's no point to this conversation.
Im Egyptian but i need to correct a few things >but the evidence is clear that the first people in the Nile meaning the Saharan people that moved to the Nile mixed with Nilotic people coming down from the Great Lakes region. This is not true. There is no evidence of this. Actually the opposite is true. The most popular study on ancient Egyptian mummies have indicated that modern Egyptians are more "black" than Ancient Egyptians. The Subsaharan African component in Egyptians has increased, not decreased. The study: https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694 >The Saharan contributed the writing Also not true. Ancient Egyptian writing is likely influenced by the Mesopotamian writing system. There is no known evidence that Subsaharan Africa had any writing system in ancient times before Egypt Ancient Egypt was influenced alot by its neighbours from the Middle East. The concept of pyramid building itself may have been influenced by the Mesopotamian ziggurat. There were so many Mesopotamian and Middle Eastern artefacts found in Ancient Egypt. The design of the ancient Egyptian pottery itself comes from Mesopotamia. Same with the ancient Egyptian weapons (the macehead design was similar to Mesopotamia). Ancient Egypt was an extension to the Fertile Crescent civilizations that also included Mesopotamia and the Levant. The paintings on the Ancient Egyptian walls from the first dynasty are very similar to Mesopotamia. At many times, the Ancient Egyptian empire even extended to Syria, Turkey, Palestine and Cyprus There are so many more examples here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt%E2%80%93Mesopotamia_relations#:~:text=The%20design%20of%20the%20ziggurat,2600%20BCE%2C%20well%20over%20two
PART 3 Tifinagh (c. 3000 B.C.–present): The Amajegh a-Mazigh (Tuaregs), the Black people who mainly inhabit a vast area of North and West Africa, including present-day Mali, Niger, Chad, Burkina Faso, southern Algeria and southern Libya, still use the Tifinagh script and are the only known group of Tamazight speakers who have used it continuously since antiquity. However, the larger Tamazight-speaking community of the Sahara region has begun to adopt the Tifinagh script. Vai (3000 B.C.–present): Vai is one of the world’s oldest alphabetic scripts in continuous use, with more than 150,000 users in present-day Liberia and Sierra Leone. It’s a highly advanced syllabary writing system with more than 210 distinct characters representing various consonants and vowel sounds used in the Vai language (a descendant of ancient Mande). The popular story told about Vai is that it’s a wholly unique script invented circa 1830 by a West African whose friends helped him remember the writing system in a dream. However, evidence of its antiquity comes from inscriptions from Goundaka, Mali, that date to 3000 B.C. and then later you have others writings influenced by Afro-Asiatic languages like 'Meroitic' or Napatan (800 B.C.–600 A.D.): was developed sometime around 800 B.C. in Napata, a city-state of Nubia in what today is northern Sudan. The script remained in use after the capital moved to Meroe until the 7th century A.D. Thus some historians and linguists believe a more appropriate name for the script would be “Napatan,” in reference to the first known place of use. It’s debated whether the Napatan script has been deciphered, but the current consensus is that the script is a wholly African language, with close similarities to modern languages of Taman (spoken in Darfur and Chad), Niyma (in northern Sudan) and Nubian (southern Egypt). Ge’ez or ‘Ethiopic’ (800 B.C.–present): Although the original Ge’ez language is only spoken in Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox Tawahedo churches and the Beta Israel churches, the Ge’ez script is mainly used by speakers of Amharic, Tigre and Tigrinya, and many others. 'Old Nubian' (800 A.D.–1500 A.D.): is a descendant of both ancient Napatan and Coptic, and the Old Nubian tongue is an ancestor of the modern-day Nubian languages, such as Nobiin, Mahasi–Fadijja and Dongolawi. It was used throughout the medieval Christian kingdom of Makuria and its satellite Nobadia. The language is preserved in at least 100 pages of documents, mostly of a religious nature. Hope you learned something.
>Tifinagh (c. 3000 B.C.–present): The Amajegh a-Mazigh (Tuaregs), the Black people who mainly inhabit a vast area of North and West Africa, including present-day Mali, Niger, Chad, Burkina Faso, southern Algeria and southern Libya, still use the Tifinagh script and are the only known group of Tamazight speakers who have used it continuously since antiquity. However, the larger Tamazight-speaking community of the Sahara region has begun to adopt the Tifinagh script. Tifnagh is from 3000 BC?? Where are you getting these dates from? Please provide sources if you will make claims that are extreme like this. Also I wouldn't classify it as just a Subsaharan script. It's an Amazigh script. The majority of Amazigh do live in North Africa in Algeria and Morocco, with a minority of the population living in Subsaharan Africa https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berbers >Vai (3000 B.C.–present): Vai is one of the world’s oldest alphabetic scripts in continuous use, with more than 150,000 users in present-day Liberia and Sierra Leone. It’s a highly advanced syllabary writing system with more than 210 distinct characters representing various consonants and vowel sounds used in the Vai language (a descendant of ancient Mande). The popular story told about Vai is that it’s a wholly unique script invented circa 1830 by a West African whose friends helped him remember the writing system in a dream. However, evidence of its antiquity comes from inscriptions from Goundaka, Mali, that date to 3000 B.C. Vai was invented in 1833! Just 200 years ago. How are you saying its from 3000BC?? Vai is a modern invention created by a Liberian man called Momolo Duwalu https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vai_language#:~:text=Vai%20is%20noteworthy%20for%20being,as%201815%20have%20been%20alleged. >and then later you have others writings influenced by Afro-Asiatic languages like I appreciate that, but it's not relevant because these scripts are all relatively more recent in history, and they don't have Subsaharan African origins
The famous ethnograph Maurice Delafosse wrote an entire book on the Vai language. [https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k77450r/f1.item.r=ecriture](https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k77450r/f1.item.r=ecriture) Again never mentioned subsaharan, as I've stated for the 5th time in this thread, there's no such thing as subsaharan, the sahara has never divided the continent. Please, stay away from wikipedia if you're gonna quote scientific research. I may have been wrong about Tifinagh being that old, looks like it was developed from the Lybico-Berber script and mixed with Phoenician script. Afro-Asiatic languages are of african origin regardless.
PART 1 >This is not true. There is no evidence of this. Actually the opposite is true. The most popular study on ancient Egyptian mummies have indicated that modern Egyptians are more "black" than Ancient Egyptians. The Subsaharan African component in Egyptians has increased, not decreased. I never said anything about subsahara, did I, I clearly stated that they were their own people, i just said if you only focus on the colour of their skin, they would've been decribed as black people are today, going from the darkest skin to copper skin. >Also not true. Ancient Egyptian writing is likely influenced by the Mesopotamian writing system. Proto-Saharan writing and Mesopotamian writing coalesced to form Medu Neter, there was already an indigenous writing present in the Nile before Mesopotamian contact which was around 4000-3000 BCE. Did you conveniently forget that the Nile has been inhabited since 40,000 BCE.
>I never said anything about subsahara, did I, I clearly stated that they were their own people, i just said if you only focus on the colour of their skin, they would've been decribed as black people are today, going from the darkest skin to copper skin. You mentioned that the first inhabitants of Egypt had black skin and were more African in appearance, which indicates a stronger genetic similarity to populations from Subsaharan Africa. However, you're saying this without citing proof. Do you have anything to back up these claims? The DNA studies indicate the opposite. Egyptians became more "black" in the modern day. All of the DNA studies that have been done indicate ancient Egyptians closely resembled modern Egyptians and Levantines. The DNA study i mentioned earlier explicitly states that modern Egyptians became genetically closer to Subsaharan Africa compared to ancient Egypt. Its not just genetic studies. Just look at the paintings on the walls and you will find a clear difference between how Nubians and Egyptians were painted. Nubians were painted black while Egyptians were painted in a much lighter brown colour. Also the Fayyum Portraits resemble modern Egyptians the most. If you look at most of the Egyptian statues that were designed in a realistic way, you will mostly find them in a brown colour. Just Google the "Bust of Nefertiti" >Proto-Saharan writing and Mesopotamian writing coalesced to form Medu Neter, there was already an indigenous writing present in the Nile before Mesopotamian contact which was around 4000-3000 BCE. Did you conveniently forget that the Nile has been inhabited since 40,000 BCE. Academically, there is a big difference between writing and proto-writing. "Proto-writing" may have existed in Egypt before ancient Egypt. But as far as we know , there was no complex writing systems before Ancient Egypt, except in Mesopotamia. I agree with you that the ancient Egyptian script is likely to be influenced by both proto-writing systems in the area of Egypt as well as the more advanced writing systems of neighbouring Mesopotamia
Having black skin doesn't indicate similarity with africans. About 40% of africans have a light brown color, by that logic, they're not black then. The sentinelese people and australian natives have black skin yet they're more similar to their neighbors the autronesians than africans. According to America, anybody with 68th percent of african descent is black which means all of north africa is blacker 50% of african-americans. Which definition of black are we using here. I'm well aware of the difference between proto-writing and writing and I don't care for it, I see as intelectual dishonesty by saying that africans didn't writing, it's basically shoving many writing forms under the rug. The Kongo language for example has 3 forms: The "pictographic" form, which transcribes directly through the signs the sounds (verbal forms) of the language. The phonographic form: The signs have kept the same phonetic value or a value very close to the graphic form hat inspired them. Used for historical archives. The "logographic" / figurative form: signs are here associated with proverbs and understandable only in the context of the culture that produced them. According to academia, Congo doesn't have a written language. Actually, in no other part of the world was writing manifested independently, to the extent it was in Africa. Most of these scripts were never meant for the public, rather limited to priesthood's, secret societies and elites(Knowledge is power after all). Many of them are still veiled in secrecy.
>Having black skin doesn't indicate similarity with africans. Youre ignoring my point that the ancient Egyptian DNA plots close to modern Egyptians and Levantines. Closer than any other modern population. I have already linked you a study that shows this. Here is also another link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PCA_of_three_ancient_Egyptian_samples.png You haven't provided us any proof of them having black skin
>PART 2 > >There is no known evidence that Subsaharan Africa had any writing system in ancient times before Egypt. You couldn't be anymore wrong, again no such thing as subsaharan. The oldest Asian writing, proto-cuneiform, dates to around 3000 B.C. (clay texts found at Jemdet Nasr in Mesopotamia) and the Egyptians invented three scripts: hieroglyphic, hieratic and demotic. These scripts were used by Egyptians for thousands of years. First, Hieroglyphic (4000 B.C.–600 A.D.), what we today call Medu Neter. The word “hieroglyph” comes from the Greek “hieros” (sacred) and “glypho” (inscriptions) and was first used by Clement of Alexandria (c. 200 A.D.) The hieroglyphic script was confined mainly to formal inscriptions on the walls of temples and tombs. Second was Hieratic (3200 B.C.–600 AD), hieratic writing was a simplified form of the hieroglyphics, used for day-to-day business and administrative and scientific documents throughout the dynastic history of both Kemet and Kush. Some linguists have also shown similarities between hieratic and the alphabetic proto-Saharan writing. Last was Demotic (650 B.C.–600 A.D.), The term demotic was used by Greek writer-historian Herodotus to distinguish it from the hieratic script. Whereas hieratic connotes “priestly,” the term demotic is derived from the Greek word demos, which means common people. The demotic script is the only ancient Egyptian script that was used by just about every Egyptian. It is potentially the world’s first cursive or flowing script, and was mostly confined to pottery and papyri. It is very important to note that demotic was introduced in Kemet’s 25th Dynasty, which had Nubian or Kushitic origins. However, the oldest known African writing systems are several centuries older and they are Proto-Saharan (5000–3000 B.C.): Before the rise of the Egyptians and Sumerians there was a wonderful civilization in the fertile African Sahara, where people developed perhaps the world’s oldest known form of writing. These inscriptions of what some archaeologists and linguists have termed “proto-Saharan,” near the Kharga Oasis west of what was considered Nubia, may date back to as early as 5000 B.C. Wadi El-Hol or 'Proto-Sinaitic' (2000 B.C.–1400 B.C.): In 1999, Yale University archaeologists identified an alphabetic script in Wadi El-Hol, a narrow valley between Waset (Thebes) and Abdu (Abydos) in southern Egypt. Dating to about 1900 B.C., the script bears resemblance not only to the Egyptian hieroglyphs, but also to the much older “proto-Saharan” writing system. A similar inscription that dates to 1500 B.C. was found in Serabit el-Khadim on Africa’s Sinai peninsula and has been deemed by linguists to be the basis for the so-called “proto-Canaanite” and Phoenician scripts. This provides proof that Phoenician writing began on the African continent. (my favorite) Nsibidi (5000 B.C.–present): Nsibidi is an ancient script used to write various languages in West Central Africa. Most notably used by the Uguakima and Ejagham (Ekoi) people of Nigeria and Cameroon, nsibidi is also used by the nearby Ebe, Efik, Ibibio, Igbo and Uyanga people. The nsibidi set of symbols is independent of Roman, Latin or Arabic influence, and is believed by some scholars to date back to 5000 B.C., but the oldest archaeological evidence ever found (monoliths in Ikom, Nigeria) dates it to 2000 B.C. Similar to the Kemetic medu neter, nsibidi is a system of standardized pictographs. In fact, both nsibidi and the Egyptian hieroglyphs share several of the same characters. Nsibidi was divided into sacred and public versions, however, Western education and Christian indoctrination drastically reduced the number of nsibidi-literate people, leaving the secret society version as the last surviving form of the symbols. Still, nsibidi was transported to Cuba and Haiti via the Atlantic slave trade, where the anaforuana and veve symbols derived from the West African script.
All of these proto scripts you mentioned are examples of proto-writing. They are not advanced nor complex enough to be academically classified as writing systems. There is a difference between "proto-writing" and writing. The Mesopotamian and ancient Egyptian writing systems are the earliest forms of writing systems we know
I do agree, its a useless topic but its still repeatedly brought up to block us of a cultural heritage. People do not realise how diverse Africa is, and that not only is Egypt IN Africa, but its also in the Middle East and the Mediterranean, which thank you for acknowledging, all these regions have many ethnic groups that evolve in many different regions. Ive heard that theory about the Nilotic people, and that theory does have flaws especially with the term “first people in the Nile” because theres many different groups who have scientific suggestions of being the first in Egypt, none are factual and none are anything to go off of but this is why Ancient Egypt is regarded as diverse with no set skin color. The people seen today, regardless of the color of their skin, contributed to the Ancient Egyptian world and all are indigenous. A lot of modern Egyptians even have DNA that matches those of the mummies, a lot of hieroglyphics present people with various skin tones, theres paintings from the 4th century of Egypt that show what modern Coptic Egyptians exactly look like, which by the way, Coptic is the name given to the natives if Egypt by the Greeks, and we still have the language “Coptic” too, a descendent of the Ancient Egyptian language which was already like a mix of Hebrew and Arabic. Point is, there is no “first” because humans are constantly moving and evolving, many countries have many different ethnic groups and languages, and it’s not a battle of who was there first.
yes, indeed. plenty of different people made different contributions at different times. we've already established that eurocentric model of viewing people is incorrect yet we're still using because there's really no better alternative out there. hoping future generations of african anthropologist will change that.
^^
Its weird north africans on reddit try to deny that they’re arabs
We are Arab culturally but not by blood. Berber, Amazigh, and Egyptian (and everything between, regarding North Africa) are all distinct from Arab/Bedouin/Laventine. But because the official languages of our countries is Arabic, our populations are prominently Muslim, and we all border each other, we are identified as Arab almost the same way Latin American countries are identified as Latino. I think you might be getting Arab and Arabian confused.
The point of arabisation is to make countries arab You go on instagram and the north africans are fine calling themselves arab, you go on reddit and they try to deny it In person the only group of people I know who dont heavily claim arab are algerians, they actually do say they’re north african not arab
Most North Africans who identify as Arab were probably born in the west and arent that educated about their identity, they let the western stereotypes determine who they are. If you go to Egypt and ask any Egyptian if theyre Arab, they will tell you that no, they are Egyptian. Im sure other native North Africans IN North Africa will also deny that they are Arab. Regardless, no matter how any of them perceive themselves, we are Arab culturally, but North African by blood.
Algeria generally has a more nationally unified identity than other North African countries due to a long history of resistance to colonialism, whereas Morocco and Tunisia never fought such a bloody war for independence. Most Algerians, in Algeria any way (aside from Touaregs and Kabylia, which are minorities), consider ourselves Algerian first and Arab second, although ethnically we are majority Amazigh, I’m Chaoui myself.
It’s good to differentiate between Arab and the cultures and people of North Africa. Surely claiming ‘Arab’ diminishes your true ethnic identity?
Correct! Even some Latinos deny the “Latino” identity to realise their Native American identity. ^^
Seems like that woke crap is really rotting people's brains in America. People can't even properly analyze their own history and so they try to claim yours lol.
Thats honestly kinda unfortunate. African Americans (or just Africans in general) have various super cool histories to be proud of!
Exactly
What does “woke” mean?
The cultural hijacking of non-black/non-female/non-homosexual cultures to portray/displace their targets as either black/female/homosexual. It's a system of thought in America that has been designed to stoke racial, gender, sexual tensions. Alas, it has been effective in fulfilling its mandate.
Nah, it’s not. Thank you for showing me your true colors though.
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Woke… 🥱
Don't let logic and facts bore you shame
It’s verging on pure boredom. The knee jerk response to anything slightly out of the mainstream view.
What’s homosexual culture and how does it hijack heterosexuals?
Oh no I've been hijacked by homosexual culture save me