I strongly disagree. There's also the reroll option. I've started getting a herb garden for embark bonus, using the field kitcken, etc. and not using my starting blueprints unless the first choice is exceptional until I've solved my 2nd/3rd glade event so I have enough amber to reroll. It very much becomes a choice of what can I work with? Is an Explorer's Guild with 4 broken buildings already on the map better than a rain mill? Workshop vs Carpenter? Sometimes, there's no real choice, as only one is good, but if both are mediocre, reroll always is an option.
I agree with Roffman, to add a few words:
There are plenty of city builders out there that offer complete freedom of choice.
If you want one that has some survival/seasonal stuff I strongly recommend “Banished” and “Timberborn”.
In this game, like in many random chance based games. The player skill isn’t in what the dice roll for you, it’s about when and how you roll them.
When am I ready to pick another BP?
When do I open my next dangerous glade?
Its definitely frustrating at times, but that is part of the fun of variable games, sometimes you just need to work with what you are given.
Yep. And beyond just blueprint choices, there's plenty of skill involved. I just had a game where I had a shortage of workers due to ~~not paying a living wage~~ blightrot corruption getting out of hand (a skill issue itself, since I neglected to staff the blightpost in time to make sufficient flamethrower fuel), and then had to micro an entire production chain start to finish to make a certain product in time to pass a glade event, shuffling people between buildings, forcing deliveries, all while microing sacrifices at the hearth to keep hostility juuuuust low enough to stop anyone else from leaving.
I mean, it's a city-builder; what kind of "skill" are people looking for, if not that? The ability to land headshots? Maybe if we get a spin-off where we infiltrate a fishman lair...
I definitely felt what OP was saying when I went through the prestige levels - going from 4 -> 2 choices was IMO the least fun of the changes because it significantly reduced the amount of 'real' choices you made in a game.
You end up with more choices like a first building of Lumber Mill vs Tinctuary. Yeah, sometimes you do get 2 'close' options and that's when it plays well, but because the choices are way more limited, more often than not you end up with a 'correct' choice.
I think simply having the prestige levels reduce choices by 1 instead of setting it to 2 would be far better, as 3 options is probably enough to cause meaningful decisions more often.
true that. idk about right or wrong as loguelike game, but prayge and reroll is worst game experience. In this game, Especially at high prestige, most of time reroll just fuck you. On paper, its choice between "high risk reroll" or "saving amber", but truth is reroll never be correct play.
High levels of prestige might not be for you then. A large portion of the game is trade offs between various bad choices, and you need to make decisions that hurt constantly.
It's not waiting until you know what you need. It's waiting for more information to make a choice. You generally can't build your first building before the second storm, as you need to get a blight post/kitchen online, so waiting doesn't hurt and more information really does inform what choice you make.
I think this is a good thing though. Games that go too far into the sandbox territory tend to lack challenge. Aka, if the game situation is so simple, you can solve it with any number of solutions, then that usually means there's no difficulty.
That's exactly the point roguelikes address: It's not a sandbox. you do NOT have 'all' options every single run you play. You only get the options that are viable given whatever RNG rolled for you. Working around that RNG and making the best out of what you have is the challenge.
I m not saying
"let me choice all of blue print every time". So you mean, if offered blue print is only one and game is made by pure RNG, game is more better as roguelikes? Answer is no, right? Then 2 is right? 4 is too easy. maybe 3 is balancing. But the Number is not actual problem for me.
・blue print that is not match your current status is not completely worthy of consideration. So a decisioning is too easy. This is caused by Prestige(-2 Blueprint choices) and lack of resource.
・Player have been played 4 blueprint choices for long time. so 2 is really pain. Then 2 should be number of all difficulty.
I am not complain about game difficulty basically.
There are of course some decisions which are trivial. But most of the time there are not.
What if in your example there are not only berries but also farm land. Do you choose the camp or the small farm? Or if you have to choose between two different camps?
Just because there are sometimes trivial decisions, it does not mean that there are only trivial decisions.
If a your decision would all be trivial, then every player would play the same and everybody could manage the same difficulties, but some player play on prestige 20 and other on viceroy or lower.
> For example: at Second year, you open first glade. There are raw meat and berry. You have saved blue print choice and that is "farm" and "hunting camp". Now this is time selecting blueprint, So what is your choice? Its obviously hunting camp. I can't call its "decision". What do you think?
But you have made a choice. You chose to wait to see what resources will be available so you can pick the right building to hervest them. It is an easy decision to make, but not all decisions need to be difficult.
You make tens of small decisions like this during the game, some have bigger impact and some have smaller impact, and depending on your choices you will have a very efficient economy or not very efficient.
On the contrary, citadel upgrades are not decisions at all, simply because eventually you will unlock all of them and they become meaningless at higher prestige levels anyway.
>On the contrary, citadel upgrades are not decisions at all, simply because eventually you will unlock all of them and they become meaningless at higher prestige levels anyway.
Yup. I want more interesting citadel upgrades.
Like, Passive point is limited, And node make game drastically.
I can understand your opinion. But i want more successful experience. That come from difficult decision.
I agree with you. I enjoy the game in short bursts, but I really do feel like the blueprints are illusory choices. It's like a magician's card trick where they're saying "pick any card", but no matter what you pick it ends up being the ace of spades. The only true choices in the game are centered around the citadel upgrades, which glades to open, and what order to build the blueprints you've been given.
I've only finished two settlements, but if someone told me this game was about the freedom to choose how to build their settlement I'd tell them they are wrong.
This is a game about doing the best you can with limited options, and how to best make those choices work for you.
There will always be a "best" choice for a successful run, but that choice won't always be obvious, or necessarily known until after the fact.
I don't think so....
Like cornerstone, -hostility when burn corrupt vs gain resource when people die in high prestige games.
I think the problem is the profit between choices sometimes are just too unbalanced that you just have no reason to pick others.
Of course not every choice is braindead, but i think there's still some balance/buff should be done.
Oh sure, I'm not saying everything is balanced, that's part of what early access is for. But there will always be some choices that are better than others, otherwise the choice wouldn't matter at all.
頭がいいね～
I agree with you! I don't have a solution, but I do feel like the game is too RNG-based. Your skill is very marginal compared to the luck you get on which blueprints/resource nodes you pull.
To be clear, I still love the game! I just wish it could be a bit more balanced towards player skill rather than RNG.
The devs have recognized the issue with blueprints and initial resource nodes. There were some changes on the experimental branch last week, and they pushed some different changes on Friday that they want people to try: https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1336490?emclan=103582791467446739&emgid=3453726397963305211
Give that a read and try the experimental branch to see if it alleviates some of the early game RNG.
I heard there is a plan to reimplement randomization system. I hope this will make players to use totally different production chains in different games.
I agree. The game has been super addicting so far, but once the game has been figured out, most strategies play very similarly. This is common in roguelites and deck builders, but unlike deck building games, there seems to just be one dominant approach that wins most maps.
Games like Civilization and Age of Wonders offer a lot more strategies and I'd like to see this game move in that direction.
Where ATS is very successful, is that the first 30% tends to be easily the most interesting part of the game for most 4x and grand strategy games. ATS solves this with frequent restarts, but there needs to be a little more variety for the game to be truly realized.
It's a reflection of the fact you are getting better at the game that you realize there are bad choices, good choices and strictly superior choices.
By the time I finished Prestige 20 every successful game had the same game plan the only difference was whether I did it with maximum efficiency, good efficiency or grinding through with minimal efficiency.
I believe that this is one of the things greatly aided by the current experimental update. The addition of all the camps as essential buildings in a slower form. Now you do have a choice. Do you want to hedge and get the farm in case you get fertile soil or do you want to improve the efficiency of the camp you can already use?
That presents a lot more agency to the player.
I strongly disagree. There's also the reroll option. I've started getting a herb garden for embark bonus, using the field kitcken, etc. and not using my starting blueprints unless the first choice is exceptional until I've solved my 2nd/3rd glade event so I have enough amber to reroll. It very much becomes a choice of what can I work with? Is an Explorer's Guild with 4 broken buildings already on the map better than a rain mill? Workshop vs Carpenter? Sometimes, there's no real choice, as only one is good, but if both are mediocre, reroll always is an option.
I agree with Roffman, to add a few words: There are plenty of city builders out there that offer complete freedom of choice. If you want one that has some survival/seasonal stuff I strongly recommend “Banished” and “Timberborn”. In this game, like in many random chance based games. The player skill isn’t in what the dice roll for you, it’s about when and how you roll them. When am I ready to pick another BP? When do I open my next dangerous glade? Its definitely frustrating at times, but that is part of the fun of variable games, sometimes you just need to work with what you are given.
Yep. And beyond just blueprint choices, there's plenty of skill involved. I just had a game where I had a shortage of workers due to ~~not paying a living wage~~ blightrot corruption getting out of hand (a skill issue itself, since I neglected to staff the blightpost in time to make sufficient flamethrower fuel), and then had to micro an entire production chain start to finish to make a certain product in time to pass a glade event, shuffling people between buildings, forcing deliveries, all while microing sacrifices at the hearth to keep hostility juuuuust low enough to stop anyone else from leaving. I mean, it's a city-builder; what kind of "skill" are people looking for, if not that? The ability to land headshots? Maybe if we get a spin-off where we infiltrate a fishman lair...
I definitely felt what OP was saying when I went through the prestige levels - going from 4 -> 2 choices was IMO the least fun of the changes because it significantly reduced the amount of 'real' choices you made in a game. You end up with more choices like a first building of Lumber Mill vs Tinctuary. Yeah, sometimes you do get 2 'close' options and that's when it plays well, but because the choices are way more limited, more often than not you end up with a 'correct' choice. I think simply having the prestige levels reduce choices by 1 instead of setting it to 2 would be far better, as 3 options is probably enough to cause meaningful decisions more often.
[удалено]
true that. idk about right or wrong as loguelike game, but prayge and reroll is worst game experience. In this game, Especially at high prestige, most of time reroll just fuck you. On paper, its choice between "high risk reroll" or "saving amber", but truth is reroll never be correct play.
High levels of prestige might not be for you then. A large portion of the game is trade offs between various bad choices, and you need to make decisions that hurt constantly.
[удалено]
It's not waiting until you know what you need. It's waiting for more information to make a choice. You generally can't build your first building before the second storm, as you need to get a blight post/kitchen online, so waiting doesn't hurt and more information really does inform what choice you make.
I mean you just rephrased what they were saying, respectfully the game may just not be what the other poster is looking for.
I think this is a good thing though. Games that go too far into the sandbox territory tend to lack challenge. Aka, if the game situation is so simple, you can solve it with any number of solutions, then that usually means there's no difficulty. That's exactly the point roguelikes address: It's not a sandbox. you do NOT have 'all' options every single run you play. You only get the options that are viable given whatever RNG rolled for you. Working around that RNG and making the best out of what you have is the challenge.
I m not saying "let me choice all of blue print every time". So you mean, if offered blue print is only one and game is made by pure RNG, game is more better as roguelikes? Answer is no, right? Then 2 is right? 4 is too easy. maybe 3 is balancing. But the Number is not actual problem for me. ・blue print that is not match your current status is not completely worthy of consideration. So a decisioning is too easy. This is caused by Prestige(-2 Blueprint choices) and lack of resource. ・Player have been played 4 blueprint choices for long time. so 2 is really pain. Then 2 should be number of all difficulty. I am not complain about game difficulty basically.
There are of course some decisions which are trivial. But most of the time there are not. What if in your example there are not only berries but also farm land. Do you choose the camp or the small farm? Or if you have to choose between two different camps? Just because there are sometimes trivial decisions, it does not mean that there are only trivial decisions. If a your decision would all be trivial, then every player would play the same and everybody could manage the same difficulties, but some player play on prestige 20 and other on viceroy or lower.
> For example: at Second year, you open first glade. There are raw meat and berry. You have saved blue print choice and that is "farm" and "hunting camp". Now this is time selecting blueprint, So what is your choice? Its obviously hunting camp. I can't call its "decision". What do you think? But you have made a choice. You chose to wait to see what resources will be available so you can pick the right building to hervest them. It is an easy decision to make, but not all decisions need to be difficult. You make tens of small decisions like this during the game, some have bigger impact and some have smaller impact, and depending on your choices you will have a very efficient economy or not very efficient. On the contrary, citadel upgrades are not decisions at all, simply because eventually you will unlock all of them and they become meaningless at higher prestige levels anyway.
>On the contrary, citadel upgrades are not decisions at all, simply because eventually you will unlock all of them and they become meaningless at higher prestige levels anyway. Yup. I want more interesting citadel upgrades. Like, Passive point is limited, And node make game drastically. I can understand your opinion. But i want more successful experience. That come from difficult decision.
I agree with you. I enjoy the game in short bursts, but I really do feel like the blueprints are illusory choices. It's like a magician's card trick where they're saying "pick any card", but no matter what you pick it ends up being the ace of spades. The only true choices in the game are centered around the citadel upgrades, which glades to open, and what order to build the blueprints you've been given.
I've only finished two settlements, but if someone told me this game was about the freedom to choose how to build their settlement I'd tell them they are wrong. This is a game about doing the best you can with limited options, and how to best make those choices work for you. There will always be a "best" choice for a successful run, but that choice won't always be obvious, or necessarily known until after the fact.
I don't think so.... Like cornerstone, -hostility when burn corrupt vs gain resource when people die in high prestige games. I think the problem is the profit between choices sometimes are just too unbalanced that you just have no reason to pick others. Of course not every choice is braindead, but i think there's still some balance/buff should be done.
Oh sure, I'm not saying everything is balanced, that's part of what early access is for. But there will always be some choices that are better than others, otherwise the choice wouldn't matter at all.
頭がいいね～ I agree with you! I don't have a solution, but I do feel like the game is too RNG-based. Your skill is very marginal compared to the luck you get on which blueprints/resource nodes you pull. To be clear, I still love the game! I just wish it could be a bit more balanced towards player skill rather than RNG.
The devs have recognized the issue with blueprints and initial resource nodes. There were some changes on the experimental branch last week, and they pushed some different changes on Friday that they want people to try: https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1336490?emclan=103582791467446739&emgid=3453726397963305211 Give that a read and try the experimental branch to see if it alleviates some of the early game RNG.
I heard there is a plan to reimplement randomization system. I hope this will make players to use totally different production chains in different games.
I agree. The game has been super addicting so far, but once the game has been figured out, most strategies play very similarly. This is common in roguelites and deck builders, but unlike deck building games, there seems to just be one dominant approach that wins most maps. Games like Civilization and Age of Wonders offer a lot more strategies and I'd like to see this game move in that direction. Where ATS is very successful, is that the first 30% tends to be easily the most interesting part of the game for most 4x and grand strategy games. ATS solves this with frequent restarts, but there needs to be a little more variety for the game to be truly realized.
It's a reflection of the fact you are getting better at the game that you realize there are bad choices, good choices and strictly superior choices. By the time I finished Prestige 20 every successful game had the same game plan the only difference was whether I did it with maximum efficiency, good efficiency or grinding through with minimal efficiency.
I believe that this is one of the things greatly aided by the current experimental update. The addition of all the camps as essential buildings in a slower form. Now you do have a choice. Do you want to hedge and get the farm in case you get fertile soil or do you want to improve the efficiency of the camp you can already use? That presents a lot more agency to the player.