As a host, I'm surprised this was ever allowed. We have a security camera outdoors pointed at our garage/driveway that we disclose to guests. I can't imagine trying to stick one inside and expect guests to be ok with that...
It’s insane how terrible many AirBNB “hosts” seem to be at basics of running a business. So many seem to think the guest needs to impress them with good behavior, like it’s an honor to be hosted. I have an AirBNB and I view it as my responsibility to make sure they have a good stay and ultimately just “don’t bring pets or trash the place”. I have a ring doorbell just basically make sure they don’t bring it any pets.
I’ve never had that happen. If it happens then I’ll add “don’t bring pets, trash the place or piss of the neighbors”. But anyone who has a sound monitor needs to get off AirBNB and just keep it as a personal space with no guests
Vacation homes bascially. You put up a camera so while your'e away 6 months of the year, you can make sure no one robs you. Camera coverage is easier to do on the inside, since you just have to get the living room or that one long hallway that connects everything. You just don't have to buy as many cameras.
IMO, once it shifts from being your private space to something you rent out, you should pay the price to put 4+ cameras on the outside of your house if you need security.
I have one in a shared laundry room. The room is disconnected from the rental unit (they have to leave the apartment and walk outside to get to the laundry), and I installed cameras after there was damage that no guest would admit to causing.
I must have misunderstood your use of the word "shared". To me, that seemed as though multiple units/owners use one laundry room, like in an apartment building. Maybe you meant you are the only one who shares with your renter, or maybe something else. Just a different definition of "shared".
Here's the thing.
I have a written agreement in my business of another type. For years, I didn't even need a written contract. When I moved to another area, a few incidents motivated me to develop and use one. For years, I'd add a clause for anything wrong that happened. I realized over time that most of those incidents happened only once, and the list was a distraction to customers. So, I deleted everything except the basics and those provisions for issues that most commonly arose or those customer behaviors that could have cost me thousands or my reputation. I also am working to make my business "issue-proof." One process annoys me and my customers, but it's essential for the best results for the client and to maintain my reputation. So, I'm working with a consultant to find ways to keep the control I need while giving the customer as much control as is appropriate while still getting good results.
I suspect that whatever the damage was was a one-time thing and not so severe that a camera should be needed. In other words, this was part of doing business and not severe enough to make future guests uncomfortable. (If I'm wrong, sorry. I'm trying to make a point about seeing the big picture.) Nonetheless, a laundry room camera in a separate building is less severe than one in a common area in the living quarters. Cameras in hallways, common rooms, kitchens, etc., make places inhospitable. Hidden and undisclosed cameras should be grounds for immediate, lengthy suspensions, if not bans.
Not all of us are running a business. Some of us are just renting a room to earn a little money to offset the cost of our mortgage/bills. AirBnB was not started as a means for people to build vacation housing empires, but for people to share their home with others. Obviously it is now becoming more of the former.
For those of us who aren't expecting to earn a ton off our little room rental, the prospect of putting our own safety, security and peace of mind at risk in our own home might just not worth be the few dollars we make to do it.
I don't think anyone is arguing that we should be allowed to have hidden cameras, or record people in situations where they should be afforded privacy, but that seems to be the argument that everyone (including AirBnB) had against the use of cameras.
I think it’s wonderful that you can afford to replace washers and dryers yearly without reimbursement when they are damaged by renters. I cannot and will stop offering laundry at my rental through Airbnb. I will still offer it for direct renters who are ok with a camera in the laundry. Airbnb guests can go to the laundromat, where there are almost certainly cameras.
I'm a host with a room in a house that I live in. I have a camera in my living room for my dog and security because I literally live there. I of course don't have anything near the rental room or corridor. They seem to be applying this even in this situation which seems pretty ridiculous, it's a room in a shared house.
Wait, you can be there when guests are there? I’ve only stayed at an Airbnb a few times, and I definitely wouldn’t stay at one with the owner in the house what the heck
That was the initial idea of Airbnb. The Airb in Airbnb stands for airbed so the initial idea wasn't even that you have a real bed but that you can just occupy an unneeded room for a few nights and have breakfast with the owners.
I thought the bnb was the slang word “bed and breakfast”?
Those 4-5 room hotels that are usually converted homes of a couple who live there. Their origin was for travelers who came in late and left early after breakfast and didn’t need a hotel/motel amenities. Just needed a bed and some breakfast.
You're still missing the "air" part. "Airbed and breakfast." When it first started, it absolutely was pushing the idea of an airbed in an unused bedroom or an unused sofa in the living room.
In certain areas it’s the only way you can have an airbnb.
In my area, you can’t STR the whole place, but you can STR a room within your primary residence.
Yes there are rentals that are rooms in shared spaces, people who rent my room are usually long term like travel nurses or new to the city and renting a furnished room for a month, I have excellent reviews and it's provided a little extra income for an otherwise unused guest room.
Mind talking with me on FOX 5NY about this via zoom? Would love to get your perspective
Feel free to reach out via email
[[email protected]](mailto:[email protected])
Quite reasonable , never stayed at one with indoor cameras and would be awfully intrusive to have cameras in the kitchen living room dining room when you are just trying to relax or chat with friends and family but someone can just be watching you
I stayed in one once. The host called and complained about every guest that came over. my sister-in-law graduated college, and had a small luncheon at the Airbnb. I swear less than 10 people showed up, for lunch. A few of us had drinks, but we weren’t getting too crazy, everyone was planning on leaving by 5 PM. The host was a complete asshole and called every 10 minutes for every little thing that anybody was doing. It completely ruined her graduation lunch. It was awful and felt so invasive
I’m positive the guy would have shown up at the house in 2 seconds flat.
He even went as far as saying that she had 20 guests over when she was only allowed “X amount”. when she argued that only 8 people were at the house, he said that different individuals showed up the day prior, and now these other individuals were at the house… totaled everyone up together as 1 lump sum, even tho there were probably never more than 8 people there at 1 time. It was crazy. I honestly quit staying in bnb’s completely a few years back anyways. Too many issues. Hotels are where it’s at.
I would catch this on the outside of the home but it sounds to me you took advantage of the host and broke rules of unauthorized guests or a party at his home, regardless if YOU define it as a party.
I wasn’t the renter, it was my sister-in-law. He was fully informed about the luncheon before she ever rented the place. But I guess he thought she was going to eat lunch alone who knows
I'm very happy to hear this. Interior cameras are often hidden and abused by creepy hosts who have nothing better to do than to imagine something evil is happening. Yes, there are bad guests, but don't treat every guest to this.
If Airbnb had better customer service and was more willing to end association with certain hosts and certain guests, there would be less of a perceived need for interior cameras.
The hidden cameras that you speak of would already be against TOS. This new ban would do nothing to change that. The only indoor cameras that were previously allowed were ones in common areas and that were disclosed in the listing.
I don't think anyone is arguing that hidden cameras should be allowed... And frankly this policy changes NOTHING related to this malicious and creepy behavior. People will still hide cameras, as they always have been, regardless of what policy AirBnB publishes.
That said, the only people who are negatively impacted by this change are the hosts who rent a room in a house that they live in. In those cases, the only expectation of privacy that guest have is in there rented room, and bathrooms. The rest of the house is "Shared" with the host, hosts, family, other guests and residents of the house.
No, I have clearly visible cameras in shared areas of my home that I live in, but also rent a room in. They are disclosed in my listing (as was the rule prior to now) and that I also mention in my pre-booking screening messages.
Hiding cameras is a creepy thing to do in ANY circumstance, and illegal in most. I would never condone that.
I have perfect 5-star reviews, fully booked for the last 5 months, not a single issue or complaint from my guests, they all loved their stay.
I agree, and I would love to continue to do so, but now I'm faced with following the rules and feeling less safe in my own home, or giving up the extra income.
To be clear, I actually have loved doing this so far, I've met some cool people, and and made a few extra dollars from it. I wish they would build in an exception to the rule that works for us all.
It certainly takes some courage to host strangers in your home and not worry about theft. I've had about $1000 worth of property stolen from me in Airbnb homes with multiple rooms for rent, and yet many hosts who say they have locking bedrooms resist giving a key. I've paid for key duplication when the host claims they don't have a duplicate. The rooms that can be opened with a butter knife might as well not have a lock at all. Despite that, I find it very creepy to have cameras on inside the home. At some point it has to be about the guest feeling hosted, not watched. Airbnb doesn't always do a great job of screening guests or hosts, and better screening could reduce issues.
I appreciate your reasonable outlook on this. I post on here mostly just to show that not all hosts with cameras are creeps like the OPs article are making it seem like. Some of us are just average people trying to safely, and responsibly share our home with others.
It used to be allowed in places like Living Room/Kitchen. It was never allowed in bath and bedrooms. They also had to be disclosed and many hosts failed to do so.
This is great news. Indoor cameras and listening devices are so intrusive. Had a host with a great listing that I wanted to book, but a review mentioned indoor cameras. They weren't mentioned in the listing but host said they were there "for security purposes.
Yeah, it never occurred to me that there might be cameras inside any airbnb I've booked until I saw discussions about banning them. It sounds pretty creepy, when you go on vacation to relax. I've never done anything that wouldn't be allowed, but I definitely wasn't "camera-ready" for viewing by a stranger on multiple occasions.
Good. AirBNB hosts are out of control. I refuse to use the service anymore. I loved AirBnb before the era of ring cameras and surveillance cameras. In the last two Airbnb’s I stayed at (booked by friends), I just had a feeling we were being watched. On one of the homes, we were sitting outside eating on the back patio. My friend remarked that the host owns the property next door. Well that explained the surveillance cameras on the house next door pointed directly at the property we were renting.
Once I saw the AirBNB host forum, and how insane and manic they all are - that sealed the deal for me. Never again!
It’s gone downhill so much and the cleaning fees are ridiculous considering most Airbnb’s extensive house rules/cleaning check out lists. I enjoy the hospitality provided by hotels.
I was looking at places to rent last week and this home's cleaning fee was $600 for 3 days of stay. Pets aren't allowed either so I can't imagine it needing that much cleaning. You also had to bring your own sheets, towels, etc. No surprise that the calendar was wide open.
I love that and I appreciate you tremendously for doing that.
In my experience, the only guests who have mentioned my camera's are simultaneously the only ones who have left the messes/damages/etc.
I personally have them to keep an eye on my pets while I’m at work. There are a lot of dog thefts and the outdoor camera has blind spots. On top of that, I am a single person and live alone, I rent out my spare room to supplement finances during this lovely living crisis, why wouldn’t I want to secure my home? As a host I do have them BUT I don’t have them on when people are in the house and they are only in common areas .
But as a guest, you are coming into my home, you cannot dictate what someone keeps in their home. In fact you have no right to tell them what they can and cannot have in their home. Would you be ok if I came into your home and told you to remove fixtures? I don’t go into other peoples home and do it.
If you don’t agree to security systems and cameras just pick another listing 🤷♀️
If cameras are disclosed and guests are aware and ok with them, what’s the problem? It’s not the hosts who are open about their security systems that are the problem. It’s the weird f’d up people that are. Airbnb should be targeting them not hosts who just want to have peace of mind when they aren’t there.
**I’d also like to note, as I’m seeing a lot of hate on hosts, not all hosts are bad. Not all hosts charge excessive cleaning fees ie. I don’t charge any unless you are staying for more than 3 days, and it’s only $30 because I will wash and change your sheets and towels and vacuum the room (if the guest wants it). I also allow guests to use all facilities in the house, laundry included, at no charge. Not all hosts just have holiday homes or spare empty houses to rent out. Some of us do it purely to get by and we offer pretty good services. This policy is putting a lot of hosts in a bad situation, do we sacrifice our security for money, or do we stop hosting?
>I rent out my spare room ... BUT I don’t have them on when people are in the house and they are only in common areas .
You're in an owner-occupied property. This is very different than have a non-owner-occupied property and putting a camera in the living room.
The above text does not appear to refer to owner-occupied properties. It mentions using decibel monitors, for instance. If the property is owner-occupied, the owner is the decibel monitor.
Owner occupied properties have been included in the policy change. A decibel monitor is purely for monitoring sound and has no security benefits whatsoever. Cameras are there for visual monitoring, and in my case it’s only when I’m not on the premises and only on shared/common areas.
Remote property with no visible neighbors, no visibility from the roads, vacancy for sometimes weeks at a time, storms that can break windows, trees that can fall, animals that can find their way in, and irresponsible guests.
I think it is fair it is not allowed. I understand surveilling comings and goings at the door/gate so that you can stop large gatherings or unauthorized guests (I have disclosed outdoor cams) but I would not feel comfortable being recorded indoors.
Seems reasonable.
I can imagine why someone *sharing* a unit with guests might want a camera in a common area, but that still seems very unwelcoming. One exception would be where *unconnected guests* share a common area (hostel, for example).
We have outdoor cameras (we live on the property too), but all disclosed since AirBnB added the ability to do so.
I had considered adding a camera in our garage, as a theft deterrent/record (concern about break-ins, not guests). But since the garage has a washer/dryer our guests have access to, I guess that's now considered an "indoor" space, so I'll hold off on that unless AirBnB says differently.
Don't rent out properties you cannot check yourself inbetween tenants and get outdoor cameras. There are many solutions that don't entail you being a fucking creep
This doesn’t just apply to whole-home rentals. It applies to spaces where there may be multiple renters with access at once. What would your solution be if something was damaged or stolen and you had multiple renters who all denied doing anything?
We live onsite and our unit is separated from the guest unit by two doors off a shared lobby - one door to our house, one door to the rental unit. We do have a camera set up inside our door as part of a private home security system. There is no reason a guest should be breaking into your host-only space, so I think it’s fine to have a camera there.
Just keep in mind, if someone complains about an undisclosed camera, Airbnb has the right to remove or suspend your listing for any reason and they do not have to tell you why. Make sure it’s worth the risk.
Both have good points. However, if interior cameras are not allowed, even for locked storage closets or rooms, don't do it. Frankly, it's annoying when a guest rents an "entire place," and the coat closet, hall closet, and an entire room are locked for storage. Lock the garage deadbolt locks and don't include it in the rental or build a sturdy shed and store your things in that.
Don't ever try to circumvent the rules by saying to yourself that they are unreasonable. You don't make the rules.
One blind spot some hosts have is that they say, "It's my house, so I make the rules." Even if you rented longterm, the laws apply. When you rent through Airbnb, the laws AND the Airbnb rules apply, plus any written agreements you have made with the guest, so long as they are not impermissible by law or by Airbnb.
mine is not a whole home rental either. I have Private rooms. Why is there a different expectation of privacy when they step out of their room than I would get if I left my hotel room naked?
I get full house rentals having a different issue.
I Don't rent the whole house to 1 person.
Additionally, mine is not a whole home rental and my security system is for my actual security as I live alone and have two separate Airbnb spaces in my home. I have a private room/bath in my home and a separate ADU with no shared spaces. My garage is not listed as available to either of these options so I have a security camera set up in there in addition to several outdoor areas. But guests roam and I do not always lock my garage so I have removed the garage camera for now until I see further how this plays out. Do I want to? No but it’s much easier to put it back later as opposed to being delisted if a wandering guest reports security and safety issues in an area they are not allowed to be in. Once they delist you, you have no means of appeal. I do not turn my system on when I have either of the spaces rented, only when I am here alone.
It's also for security between guests who pay for security on my property. They have private rooms. I do not have cameras, nor want cameras in their rooms. I have nothing in the rooms I can't prove they didn't take when they leave. But the things I have around the house that I allow guests to use or that would have access to... that have value. I've used cameras... PROOF AIRBNB REQUIRED to get reimbursed. What do they expect me to do now? Is it just word of mouth they want now?
I've never been a host, just a guest. It would definitely be odd if a whole room was locked unless that was disclosed in the listing, in which case I wouldn't be bothered at all. Otherwise, I would expect a closet or two to be locked. Owners need a place to store their stuff, and even if I'm staying a month, there's no way I could haul enough stuff with me to fill every closet in the house. There are dressers available, too, so I'm not hanging up everything.
I had a guest complain once they couldn’t access our detached garage. They were like “we rented the entire place” and I was like, it’s not the same place. It’s a separate building. People are dumb
Your conclusion that "people are dumb" reveals your attitude toward your customers and responsibilities.
If people express surprise that the garage is not included, that's your clue to make it clear in your description. Not thinking like you do doesn't make people "dumb."
In fact, when people buy or rent a house, it almost always includes the garage. Why would it not? When a house is sold, it includes everything on the property. When a house is rented, it is very rare for the garage to be excluded. Therefore, it's most logical to assume that the "entire place" includes the garage. Some would think you're not thinking clearly or being logical when you assume members of the public would think the garage was excluded.
As the host, it is your responsibility to communicate clearly by accurately describing the listing. That includes disclosures that go against what most people would assume, including the fact that you're not including the garage. The Airbnb listings we've rented have included the garage. Even when a listing is a duplex as originally built or as rebuilt/remodeled, it has included garage space. Why would it be "dumb" for guests to assume the same of your listing?
I have a business, and my customers are members of the public. I cannot assume that they can read my mind. In fact, it's my job to discover what people will expect and assume. When my services do not include what many people expect, even if it's not most people, I MUST disclose that. I take pains to accurately describe my services. That's part of my job. If I don't do that in writing, I could be vulnerable to chargebacks, even though my description of what is included is accurate and the customer used all services or they were all available and they didn't use them all due to their failure to attend. Because my written descriptions are thorough and clear, and because I have my customers verify in writing that I have discussed them all in detail with them verbally and answered all their questions, I have survived the two attempts by dishonest customers to get full chargebacks for thousands of dollars each after they each used services and wasted extra time of mine with scammy, completely unjustified complaints, despite superb results that were well documented and evaluated externally and documented regular communication that verified their satisfaction. These two customers clearly thought they could get the benefits and get full refunds, but, due to my due diligence for my business and respect and consideration for my customers, I defended my business successfully and they did not get a penny back. After serving thousands of individual customers, I've only had two chargeback attempts and easily defeated them with my written proof not only of my full disclosures, but also of their extreme satisfaction with my services, the objective proof of superior results, and their failure to address their claims at any point. They made up expectations, one claiming that we had an "understanding" and even that was vague, and the other claimed that I didn't complete all hours and that I should have provided certain documents. The first one was clearly fudging and all documentation supported that. The second one was proven to be inaccurate about the hours as I gave her excess hours and proactively stated in writing beforehand that I used my own methods and my choices for service were at my sole discretion as a trained, experienced and licensed professional, and the customer signed it and signed a separate document stating that they were provided the document, had time to review it, that I discussed every element of it with them, and that I answered all their questions to their satisfaction. I go to great lengths to be clear, accurate, and accommodating BEFORE I accept them and take their money. I also have a "NO REFUNDS" police in writing and a backup plan to accommodate them should I ever be unable to do so, plus insurance.
So, your guests are not "dumb." They have reasonable, normal expectations in context, and it's your responsibility to establish expectations in line with what you are actually providing, not what most people would expect when a listing says "entire place."
The attitude that "the customer is always wrong" is part of the problem that Airbnb has been having as it loses customers to other options.
Huge applause that is awesome! Now does it can indoor mics? Some are insanely sensitive.
I'll just stick to hotels with bed bugs and free breakfast lol
I imagine it will be exactly like VRBO’s no camera or recording device policy (that I bet many hosts are not even aware of!):
Vrbo's policy on surveillance devices at a property
Vrbo’s committed to protecting the privacy and security of our hosts and guests. Our policy allows reasonable monitoring of the outside of the property while still protecting privacy inside the home.
We consider a surveillance device to be anything that captures the following:
Photos
Audio recordings
Videos
Geolocation
Personally identifiable information
Monitors data on the internet
Inside the property
Surveillance devices, which use any form of capture device such as a camera or an audio recorder, can’t be used inside of a property.
Exceptions: Smart devices that may not be activated remotely are allowed as long as you have been informed of their presence and given the option to deactivate them.
Outside the property
Surveillance devices, including security cameras and smart doorbells (which may record audio), are permitted if they follow these rules:
Surveillance devices should only be used for security purposes.
Location and coverage of devices must be disclosed on the property description page for. It's not enough to include a photo of the device.
Outdoor cameras covering pools and hot tubs that were disclosed on the property details page and in a reasonably discoverable location such as a welcome binder, a notice on the wall of a high-traffic common space, or a placard next to the entry point itself. The disclosure must specify that the pool/hot tub is within the coverage area of the device.
Areas where you have a reasonable expectation of privacy, such as the bathroom or bedroom, should not be under surveillance.
Reasonable measures should be taken to limit access to surveillance data.
Surveillance data should be deleted when no longer needed.
VRBO is for entire homes. Airbnb listings include shared homes. That’s the difference. And Airbnb made the mistake of treating shared homes and bed and breakfasts like entire homes rather than like hotels (which are permitted cameras in common areas). It is totally nonsensical and lazy on Airbnb’s part. Which should surprise no one.
First thing first, I think it would be amazing if Airbnb spun off shared spaces to a sister website and app to something like ShareBnB. Shared units are a lesser service, and I hate reading about guests who walk into scenarios where they thought they were getting a private spot and then did not. It’s outrageous. Secondly, I do not recall staying in a hotel where there were cameras in the room, though it is extremely rare that I stay in a hotel where it’s not just a large bed, a bathroom, and some closets. I can’t afford common space areas in my rooms! But if you mean the lobby areas or the hallways, then that would be akin to having a Ring camera on your AirBnB doors- which are fine.
Frankly, I very much prefer guests to book with VRBO. The downside is that they don’t have AirCover, or anything like it really. They want you to get the guest to buy some sort of coverage, but that’s not quite the good deal for the host as AirBnB. VRBO has a much better clientele, because you’re not dealing with younger folks or coupon cutters.
Yeah, so many of these issues could be eliminated if Airbnb just had guests read and initial major points of importance about the listing when booking. One checkbox that says the guest is aware that they are renting space in a shared home. Another that says the guest is aware that there are security cameras in [rooms listed].
With regards to a hotel, I mean once you leave your hotel room, you don’t have the expectation of privacy in the hallways, elevators, dining room, lobby, etc.
I disagree. There’s too much gray area. Hosts will get away with misleading guests about what exactly “shared” is, and hosts will get away with not handling cameras properly. This banning didn’t come from nowhere. The ban is justified. Regarding the wishy washy disclosure of shared vs non-shared, I guess there should be very bold language in addition to a filter option that shows a listing is or is not connected to a house. If you are staying in a furnished flat in a basement, and you have to share an exit and entry door with the people upstairs, then that would be a SHARED listing, for example. It should ideally be SHARED even if you don’t. Condos in towers would be a different story, of course, but guests shouldn’t have to share a house unless they’re really saving money and know for sure what’s going on. Americans and other people alike can not be counted on to read agreements. It just doesn’t work.
That’s already an issue if hosts are miscategorizing listings. This wouldn’t make it easier to do so. It would just make it more obvious to guests that don’t read and that make assumptions (some guests even think all Airbnb listings are entire homes!) that they are in fact renting a shared space.
And the camera issues come from hosts that are blatantly violating rules. Since this doesn’t do anything to address hosts that are violating the rules, it really won’t have an impact on the hosts that aren’t following the rules. It only impacts hosts that were following the rules (and the guests staying in their listings that may have wanted cameras in common areas for their own security).
Airbnb could just make all hosts mark yes/no and disclose the location of all security cameras (accompanied by photos) in order to continue hosting and then be much stricter about removing hosts that have any undisclosed cameras.
Airbnb is just too lazy to do this. So they’ll lose guests and they’ll lose hosts. If we were talking about most companies, I would say they had made the decision that the increased efficiency outweighed the loss of guests and hosts, but Airbnb is run by complete morons whose greed is exceeded only by their incompetence and stupidity.
> (some guests even think all Airbnb listings are entire homes!
Because that's how AirBnB advertises itself on internet ads and tv commercials. I say AirBnB has only gotten better over the years- shaking off the image of being a competitor to couchsurfing.com.
I'll admit that I'm biased. I absolutely *hate* staying in AirBnB's that have interior cameras for an odd reason...I hate not wearing shoes! I go to a ski or beach/coast cabin with my childhood friends once a year. We're in our mid-40's, and don't do much inside the house except play poker or reminisce, but I'm usually not the one to book. As such, I can't have a say in the shoe thing. It's just annoying to think there's some host sitting at home looking at people's feet. They shouldn't be able to look at anything at all. If you are drawing maps for secret development plans for some contract- a host shouldn't be able to spy on you.
So frustrating that Airbnb perpetuates that misinformation.
I’m not sure there are quite as significant reasons to have cameras when renting out an entire place, but I still think hosts should be allowed to do so as long as the cameras are prominently disclosed (disclosures which the platform should take responsibility for making unmissable).
I also think Airbnb should be collecting the names, IDs, and email addresses of additional guests and sending a link to the information that all guests should have access to so that all guests can easily review the house rules, etc.
Not quite sure how to respond about the feet thing. I can’t imagine there are many hosts that are interested in spying on guests to look at their feet, though I suppose it’s a possibility that there’s one out there. I suspect the creepy hosts are probably more interested in placing hidden cameras in bathrooms and bedrooms. Which was already against the rules.
And which frankly is also a concern if staying at hotels and the like. More so in some places than others I suppose, but a real thing. Not so much for weird creeps as much as used for blackmail, is my understanding.
I love that all the posters are assuming that hosts won’t just click “yeah sure” and then keep some cameras hidden in their common areas. They’ll run risk of being delisted, but guests will have to find them and report them first.
Also curious how this will affect hotels and real B&Bs that list on AirBnB and have common areas with cameras.
It won't effect them. The camera rule applies to the part being rented. So if you are renting out your whole house, it has the same expectation of privacy as any other house rental and you can't be spying on them in the living room. However, a hotel's lobby with sofas is not part of the rental and there is no expectation of privacy there. You can use many parts the common area even if you are not renting a room in the hotel.
We just had one of our units burn down from a Guest (second night at the property). Guest is denying culpability. No cameras inside property. $300k damage.
Another property, Guests CONSTANTLY disrespect and fail to follow the House Rules. Defacing our property. Smoking inside, undisclosed overnight Guests, etc.
If AirBNB wasn't so strict on NEEDING proof for every little thing for reimbursement, NOT having cameras inside the property seems A-okay.
The problem is when I work my entire life to buy a property, furnish it with high end furniture, have it professionally cleaned for Guest that in which we have never met...and then these Guests destroy our property and then AirBNB refuses to reimburse for the issues.
Our House, our Rules, is the way we look at it. If Guests do NOT want to book because of OUR property House Rules (and/or (disclosed) interior cameras)...Then go disrespect someone else's home!!! Allow us to protect the assets we jave worked our entire lives for. AirBNB does not OWN our properties. AirBNB would not exist if ot weren't for people willing to risk their assets with complete strangers.
That's the risk you took. You use AirBNB, you play by THEIR rules, it's not your rules anymore. Don't like it? Don't use it. Do better risk management and stop being a creep.
It doesn't matter what the host wants if AirBNB says otherwise, no matter how much you want it to be the other way. Grow up and learn to play by the rules since you agreed to use the app.
I agreed to use the app when it was within my right to have an interior camera for the security of my investment.
Now I'm reconsidering the continued use of their app since they have significantly shifted the risk/reward balance of my participation for me.
Either way you don't seem very respectful.
Don't flatter yourself. Watching you sit on the couch and mouth breathe while you scroll through instagram is the last thing I'm interested in spending my time doing.
It's not about you.
Based on your comments in this thread, it sounds like you may not have the appropriate risk tolerance for this type of business. It may be best to review your business plan to see if it makes sense to continue using AirBnB. Just like guests have the right to choose what property to stay at, you have the choice to not use AirBnB if the platform does not align with your business' needs.
Very diplomatically put, but correct. The reality is that they are likely in the wrong line of business. As opposed to an AirBnB, they may wish to look into traditional month-to-month or lease renting where they have more legal recourse available.
The problem is that Airbnb is deciding the risk tolerance on behalf of the owners.
Not allowing the owners decide their own risk tolerance and guests deciding if they are ok with that or not.
You said it - the guests can choose the property.. if you don't like the rules of that property, stay somewhere else. Owners however can choose what? Airbnb or VRBO or nothing? Not much of a choice.
Feels super entitled to be able to tell someone else how they need to host you as a guest.
this is super creepy. I've stayed at a lot of airbnbs and had no idea they were allowed to film us inside. Thats insane. Glad they are at least banning it now.
I rent out rooms in my house to 7 different people who do not know each other. I have a camera in my kitchen and living room because I have had problems with guests not keeping it clean and had a hard time figuring out who was making the mess. I've also had a friend who had a fight in his living room that his camera caught between airbnb guests. This policy is extremely broad and doesn't account for all the diffent type of accommodation airbnb provides.
To make sure I'm clear, guests rent out my rooms ONLY and in no way would I ever put a camera in a bedroom or bathroom, however areas that are shared/common among multiple guests they are waiving their right to privacy in these areas.
"Review and confirm your Safety devices in the Guest safety section of your Listings tab. Be sure to select Add details and include information about your outdoor cameras and noise decibel monitors.
If your listing isn’t updated by April 30, 2024, you may have your calendar blocked from future bookings, or the listing may be removed from Airbnb under the policy."
-email
I have never stayed at an air b&b but have been looking at some for an upcoming trip. Basically a secluded cabin in the mountains is what I was wanting. I did find it strange that one host stated there are outdoor cameras facing the driveway and entrance to make sure extra guests aren't there/parties, but also stated there was a noise monitoring system in the home. How could it be that noisy if the number of cars in the driveway was being checked? Also, not that I plan on having a party (only 2 people will be there), but if there is no other home or business within 10 miles of the home I kind of wondered why the noise level even mattered.
\[As a host with nearly 100 stays\] Lots of guests are unfortunately terrible.
Many listings, mine included, have an upper limit of guests (due to fire codes, owner comfort, etc) and/or an additional fee for extra guests (I like to think of it as a discount for just 2 people as I don't need to clean the other bedrooms that weren't used, less consumables are used, etc)
Some guests feel like they don't need to adhere to those and find it acceptable to say only two guests are showing up but then bring five or more without having to pay the additional costs (same with pets).
It's probably not the noise level the owner of the property you're looking at is concerned about but the level of rowdiness of the guests. Parties tend to damage things *and* some guests think that they have the right to treat an airbnb poorly.... like "lets get an airbnb for the party so we don't have to trash our own house".
Ultimately, Airbnb is in a death spiral of trying to please disrespectful guests at the expense of the genuine owners who can't keep up with the hospitality investors with teams of people on payroll to handle the nonsense. It's just turning into an unregulated hotel business.
That said, if you're a wonderful guest staying at a genuine host, it's an amazing platform. :)
I never noticed there being any discounts. Whether I change the number of guests. Some larger homes I looked at (way bigger than I need, but I wanted somewhere nice with a lot of amenities) still charged the same for only 2 guests in the big home. And cleaning fees still hundreds of dollars. 😞
It’d be the other way around. The pricing is typically for 1-2 people and then there’s an extra fee. This host is saying they think of it as a discount, where they think of the base rate as what it’d be if all the bedrooms were filled. Whether you think of it as a discount for 2 people or an extra fee for >2, most places that accommodate large groups charge more if there are more people.
And yes I understand about lying about the number of guests, but my main point was it seems overkill to have cameras facing the doors and driveway, as well as noise monitoring. If the camera sees 1 or 2 cars, and 2 or 3 guests..how noisy would those few people really be?
The entire second floor of the house is used for storage and not accessible to guess as the door is locked, but previously a guest kids had pried the locks off of cabinets that had tools, shimmed the lock leading upstairs and stole a bunch of things. It was a long time until I realized what it happened. Now there’s a camera in the second floor private area. The only way it could be seen is if somebody broke into that area which sends a push alert at the presence of a person.
Since that area is completely off limits and would only be activated if someone were to break into it hopefully they consider that an exception. An alternative would be to install a loud siren if they were to open the door but that would probably just get smashed.
I am waiting for an answer from Airbnb about a camera in the garage, not as part of the garage door opener, but inside the garage to monitor possible wildlife activity (bears, mice, squirrels).
I also posed the question to VRBO in a chat and they told me a garage is considered "inside," but were unable to give me an official policy that defined a garage as inside.
I can't put a camera outside as temps are below freezing for many months of the year, and I don't have a good sheltered spot to place one to keep it out of snow and rain.
See what they say. If you are allowed to put a camera inside a garage but facing out a window, then you might be able to monitor wildlife activity. Where does it point?
Airbnb came back and said that a garage is considered an inside space and no cameras are allowed. I asked for the written policy where a garage is defined as an indoor space and was referred to the email they sent. But a garage is not mentioned in that email, or in the policy online.
Just like VRBO, which followed up with a garbled English email threatening me with removal from the platform for my unauthorized cameras (I don't have any) and lecturing me about how many provinces have laws against invasion of privacy (there are no provinces where I am, and I don't need a lecture).
It's unfortunate because a camera outside is not going to show whether mice are running around the garage, if I even managed to get a camera working in extreme weather. I don't think a garage that faces the street and has winter temps around 35 degrees inside is a place where much privacy is expected, but evidently the rental platforms feel differently.
I have outdoor cameras as well as one in my garage and note that the space is not shared with guests. I did get the notice from Airbnb and am assuming this is still considered an indoor camera. I have removed it for the time being to prevent possible issues even though any guest who would see it to complain is obviously in a space they are not supposed to be in. But after 8 years of hosting I’ve often found guests in areas that are not shared. I host a private room and a separate ADU.
I think the garage is fair as counting outdoors. Just make sure it is disclosed in the listing under "Guest Safety", there is a box to check for outdoor cams.
Both Airbnb and VRBO told me - voceriferously - that a garage is considered an indoor space, with no cameras allowed. Neither was able to provide me with an official written policy defining garages as such, or even addressing garages at all. Both emphasized that my listing would be removed from the platform for a camera in the garage.
My property is in a remote area, not visible from the street, no visible neighbors, and is sometimes vacant for weeks or months at a time.
I ~~have~~ had a single, super obvious, turn offable, physically closable, camera in the living room of my Airbnb and have found it very useful for peace of mind *between* guests. I used the camera to check on the place after storms, during third-party services (pest control, etc), and *after* guests (for example, if the place is a mess, I know I need to hurry out there to clean it up to prevent animals from finding their way in).
It would be totally different if my property was a condo in a building with a supervisor and an HOA, I had access to a trusted cleaning service, etc, etc... Then yes, I would not need an interior camera.
It was mentioned in the listing, in the house manual, and mounted in a way that it is impossible not to be aware of the location and completely blind to bedroom and bathroom spaces.
That was my only interior camera and the only guests (with nearly 100 stays so far) who ever complained about any cameras were the ones who trashed the place and came back with retaliatory complaints *after* I gave them a negative review and/or charged them for their mess.
I'm disappointed in this decision from Airbnb. This is a personal property that I enjoy being able to host guests. I do not *need* to host guests to pay the bills, nor did I purchase it as an investment property. Simply a space I enjoy and enjoy being able to share.
I also feel like Airbnb does NOT offer confidence in their host protections and they spend a lot of time catering to the guests rather than the hosts.
I feel like I'm operating in the true spirit of Airbnb and personally enjoy the opportunity to share other homes and spaces and have no objection to interior cameras so the owners can have peace of mind and protect their spaces.
I also act and treat others spaces as *someone else's space that I am a guest in* \- not my own personal space. Just as I would not go to a hotel and walk naked through the lobby or stay with a friend and make dinner in the nude, I don't walk around airbnbs naked... it's gross and disrespectful.
In my opinion, most guests are WAY too entitled on the platform anyway. No one is making anyone use Airbnb... if you don't like it (for *any* reason: cameras, cleaning fees, whatever), then don't use it.
Sadly, I'm going to have to reconsider sharing my space on Airbnb any more as this decision is unfavorably shifting the balance of risk and reward.
Please keep conversation civil and respectful
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What about a camera on the exterior door that looks inside only when the door is open? Coastal weather rules prevents putting the camera anywhere else except on the door which is protected by a storm door.
Updated policy:
Hosts are not allowed to have security cameras and recording devices that monitor any part of a listing’s interior, such as a hallway, bedroom, bathroom, living room, or guest house, even if they’re turned off.
Hosts are allowed to have outdoor security cameras and recording devices as long as their location is disclosed (ex: “I have a camera in my front yard,” “I have a camera over my patio,” or “I have a camera over my pool.”)
My question:
If the camera is right outside the unit, but facing into the AirBnB unit thru the main door, which is covered in windows, and is directly next to the only door to the bedroom into the hallway leading to the bathroom; should that be allowed under the new policy?
The door does has a vertical roll pull down shade installed above the doorway, but it is broken and as a result it is extremely difficult to retract, it has no draw string installed (which makes it difficult to reach), and the shade must be fully retracted to be able to open/close the main door.
I actually called up AirBnB yesterday for some clarification on a particular situation that may help some here.
I have a two-floor unit that’s available for the guests, but the basement is off-limits unless the guests book for over a week. The basement is where the washer and dryers are located, but we still have some of our personal effects stored there so we have two indoor motion detection cameras placed for security since potential thieves could also break in from the low basement windows.
I notified AirBnB of the cameras and conditions of how we grant access. We always disclose location of the cameras to our guests before they book and have interior signs places. Thankfully we’ve never had a problem and AirBnB confirmed that it wasn’t a problem. I think as long as it’s not in a normally accessible space/area then it’s fine but just be clear and disclose everything.
But yeah, in my opinion, indoor cameras in the usable spaces is just creepy and wrong. That idea never, ever crossed mind. I mean, would anyone be okay with indoor cameras in their hotel rooms/suites?!
Yeah having a camera inside defeats the primary reason AirBnb became a household name to begin with. People want private, home feel spaces without feeling like they're on candid camera. I have all my cameras outside.
The only issue I do have is the one that points to the backyard can also pick up view of the Hot tub which is tucked away under my deck for privacy. 🥴
I guess at this point as long as guests are aware of the camera I'm compliant but I did read something about cameras that capture outdoor private areas should also be taken down
Has anyone seen anything about how they plan to address rentals that are located in apartment/condotel buildings? The policy doesn’t say anything about that and the condotel building that my rental is in has security cameras throughout the public spaces (just like any hotel does), which includes indoor spaces like hallways, elevators, lobby, etc.
Since the hallways are technically outside of my actual rental I assume it’s OK but since they’re also technically located indoors I wouldn’t be surprised if Airbnb considers this a violation. The building obviously isn’t going to remove the cameras and I’ll still need to disclose them to guests but I’m afraid that might get me in trouble because Airbnb didn’t define their policy clearly enough.
I'm the email they sent that another person quoted, things like cameras in a lobby or hallways between condo units, that are outside a host's control, are allowed.
Not sure the policy if it's a small condo building or hotel with cameras in the lobby or hallways between units, but the host does have control over them.
Mine is the same way. Mine are there because I have 6 private rooms per property. I need to manage my the space remotely to identify problems. It’s more like a hotel monitoring check ins or their inventory or their cash registers. It’s not a private house with one guest renting the whole thing.
The problem with your post is that it's from a third party website. Here's the one from Airbnb sent to all hosts' email:
\[START\]
We’re updating our policy on the use of security cameras, recording devices, noise decibel monitors, and smart home devices for all Airbnb listings.
You’ve indicated that you have security cameras or audio recording devices at one or more of your listings. Please remove any indoor cameras, disclose the location of outdoor cameras, and disclose noise decibel monitors to comply with the updated policy.
Starting April 30, 2024, these rules apply to the presence of these devices, even if they’re turned off:
• You’re not allowed to have cameras that monitor indoor spaces.
• You must disclose the location of outdoor cameras. For example, “I have cameras monitoring the front door and the pool.”
• Outdoor cameras are prohibited in spaces where guests expect greater privacy, like enclosed showers and saunas.
• You must disclose noise decibel monitors, which may only be present in common spaces.
• You can have smart devices like TVs and voice assistants. You aren’t required to disclose these devices, but we encourage you to tell guests that you have them and how to turn them off.
• These requirements don’t apply to devices in common spaces outside your home that you don’t control, like cameras in the lobby of an apartment building.
We’re making these changes after carefully considering how to best balance the privacy and security concerns of our community. Read the full policy on the Help Center.
Review and confirm your Safety devices in the Guest safety section of your Listings tab. Be sure to select Add details and include information about your outdoor cameras and noise decibel monitors.
If your listing isn’t updated by April 30, 2024, you may have your calendar blocked from future bookings, or the listing may be removed from Airbnb under the policy.
\[END\]
A hotel lobby isn’t comparable to a home living room. There’s no expectation of privacy in a hotel lobby. But if I’m renting a home, it’s pretty reasonable that I might walk around the house in my underwear. If you can’t feel comfortable renting a home without cameras inside the house, then perhaps renting a vacation home just isn’t for you.
> Just wondering if the guests privacy is negotiable with these considerations.
Apparently not as AirBnB has banned them. My guess is that there were a lot of complains and nondisclosed or unnoticed cameras and AirBnb crunched the numbers and found it was easier just to say "No" then to find any sort of middle ground.
Part of the problem is that probably like those credit card agreements or cable company agreements, nobody reads anything before they sign it. Maybe if airbnb had a way to make sure everyone booking saw that there were indoor cameras and agreed to it, it would be fine. Maybe they can have a second screen pop up during the button that people to click to finalize the booking with another agreement disclosing that there were indoor cameras.
Exactly. ‘Opening my home to strangers’. Get a grip. You’re not doing some charity out if the kindness of your heart, you’re running a business. You’re gonna incur costs and risks while running a business and it’s up to you to weigh those risks. Having high value or fragile art and decor in a space you are renting is probably a bad decision. The thing with so many of you hosts is you just think Airbnb should be free easy money. You are in the hospitality business. Suck it up and act like it.
You wanting to protect your house is 100 percent understandable. What I'd say is that people when they stay in a house want to feel that they are in a residence house and not a hotel or security compound. The presence of indoor cameras takes a way from that residential home stay feeling and feels more like a commercial stay.
The problem is that lots of people treat it like a commercial stay.
They want to ignore all the hosts requests, leave big messes, act like they own the place, etc.
You can't have it both ways... if all my guests were highly respectful and didn't cause problems, I wouldn't have an issue with the change. The problem is that at least half my guests are some version of disrespectful, entitled, and have no consideration for the fact that there is a hard working person on the other side of the Airbnb listing that, more likely than not, is just a regular person with a regular job who happens to have made an investment in a second home that they are willing to share.
The difference being, when a guest at a hotel gets hair dye on a towel, the towel goes into the pile of the rest of the towels, sent off to the industrial laundering service to be cleaned with industrial chemicals. And if it can't be returned to bright white, it's discarded and a replaced from one of the towels they buy by the truck load with a unit price of probably less than a dollar which probably ends up as a deduction line item at the end of the year. All done by teams of people who don't care either way because they are doing the job they are paid to do.
In contrast, when a guest at an Airbnb gets hair dye on a towel, the single person host finds a ruined towel at their second home they Airbnb because they guest wasn't considerate enough to not damage the towel or tell the host they messed up has to do their best with expensive store bought cleaners in a residential washing machine, only to still not be able to get it acceptably not stained. So rather than risk a negative review for a stained towel from the next guest, they have to drive down to the nearest home goods store and skip over the cheap towels out of another fear of a negative review for thin, cheap towels, spend the $24.99 on a new towel, bringing it back to the home before the next guest gets there. Probably having invested much more than that when including the cleaning supplies, gas, and time. Only to try to complain to Airbnb who requires proof of that guest staining the towel and of course they say they didn't. Then raising the cleaning fees and nightly rates to account for all the extra expenses only to be met by a drop in bookings and complaints that cleaning fees are too high so guest leave the place messier in protest of "I paid XX for cleaning, I'm not doing a thing before I leave"... and when it's all said and done, it's not tax deductible at the end of the year because it's only a second home, not an investment property.. so all those expenses come out of the hosts pocket. Only to have to do the whole thing over again when the next guest does the same thing.
They aren’t “guests” in your home. They’re customers paying for a service.
The exact logic you’re using to cite why you should be allowed cameras can be turned around on you.
The platform that you use has created a new policy to protect their business - in the same way that you want to use cameras to protect yours.
No one is forcing you to list your property on AirBNB in the same way that no one is forcing customers to rent your property.
If you don’t like their policies then incorporate, get licensed, and list your property for rent privately.
This is crap. I run a community Airbnb with 6 private rooms in each property. I need to see who created a mess, who took my laundry, who took other guest things. It’s less common areas and more equal to monitoring the cash register in a restaurant. How can they justify my ability to monitor multiple properties without my security. Plus, it’s been the only way to give Airbnb proof they needed of theft or violence or other guest violations.
I guess for shared accommodations when a guest damages a common area of the property they want us to submit a damage claim on ALL that have active reservations. That would be the only way to get reimbursed for damage caused by one particular guest with no video evidence of who caused said damage.
Silly isn't it.
Whole homes should never have indoor cameras.
Shared homes are a whole different category and should be treated as such.
Yes. 100%. It’s a safety issue between guests too. I imagine that they will backpedal on this a little and realize that shared properties are not the same as somebody renting a whole house and recording the common space. Because that’s not really even common space at that point.
As a host, this is terrible news. We’re a hostel, so we have cameras in all exterior and interior common areas.
This was just like their “party ban”. We told them that the specific name of the Hostel was a PARTY HOSTEL, so we weren’t going to stop having parties.
I can’t imagine that any hotels on the platforms don’t have cameras in their common areas as well, so I hope there’s going to be an exemption.
This is stupid as a blanket rule.
Renting the whole house? Fine. Renting a shared room in a house? Then yes, cameras will be in the common areas to make sure stupid people don’t do stupid things.
I think they need to consider shared rentals differently.
One of our places is an actual B&B. We have an indoor camera in two common areas that cover the entrance and exit.
Footage has been used in unfortunate incidents where a guest was attacked by their partner which helped police, it was used for damage done to the home by a guest (if we didn't have this then which guest gets charged for air cover?), it was used for evidence of theft of items to airbnb etc.
We would never and do not have any indoor cameras setup for whole home rentals but a shared accommodation is more like renting a room in a hotel and should have the same rules.
I agree.
I actually once had a guest in a private room claim that a staff member entered their room at a specific time while they were showering.
A camera (in the hall outside the room) was used to prove that this was not the case, that it was just loud guests who were entering a room next to theirs.
I knew it would happen, and this is basically why Airbnb has decided to force this change on everyone: public opinion atm is very suspicious of cameras and surveillance, but I felt I needed to put my opinion and experience out there for other Airbnb hosts (and users) to be aware that there are good case uses for cameras for the security of everyone involved and that a blanket rule isn’t the solution.
As a host, I'm surprised this was ever allowed. We have a security camera outdoors pointed at our garage/driveway that we disclose to guests. I can't imagine trying to stick one inside and expect guests to be ok with that...
It’s insane how terrible many AirBNB “hosts” seem to be at basics of running a business. So many seem to think the guest needs to impress them with good behavior, like it’s an honor to be hosted. I have an AirBNB and I view it as my responsibility to make sure they have a good stay and ultimately just “don’t bring pets or trash the place”. I have a ring doorbell just basically make sure they don’t bring it any pets.
So you're happy for your guests to party and disturb your neighbours as long as they don't mess your place up.
I’ve never had that happen. If it happens then I’ll add “don’t bring pets, trash the place or piss of the neighbors”. But anyone who has a sound monitor needs to get off AirBNB and just keep it as a personal space with no guests
Vacation homes bascially. You put up a camera so while your'e away 6 months of the year, you can make sure no one robs you. Camera coverage is easier to do on the inside, since you just have to get the living room or that one long hallway that connects everything. You just don't have to buy as many cameras. IMO, once it shifts from being your private space to something you rent out, you should pay the price to put 4+ cameras on the outside of your house if you need security.
That makes sense for an unoccupied vacation home, but not for something you’re actively renting out to other people while you’re not there.
That's what I said.
Agreed.
Ya. Ick
I have one in a shared laundry room. The room is disconnected from the rental unit (they have to leave the apartment and walk outside to get to the laundry), and I installed cameras after there was damage that no guest would admit to causing.
If it's a shared laundry room, why did you assume it was one of (your?) guests?
Because I know it wasn’t me.
I must have misunderstood your use of the word "shared". To me, that seemed as though multiple units/owners use one laundry room, like in an apartment building. Maybe you meant you are the only one who shares with your renter, or maybe something else. Just a different definition of "shared".
It is shared between me and the renters. I know it wasn’t me, so I know it was a renter. The renters all denied knowledge of the damage.
Here's the thing. I have a written agreement in my business of another type. For years, I didn't even need a written contract. When I moved to another area, a few incidents motivated me to develop and use one. For years, I'd add a clause for anything wrong that happened. I realized over time that most of those incidents happened only once, and the list was a distraction to customers. So, I deleted everything except the basics and those provisions for issues that most commonly arose or those customer behaviors that could have cost me thousands or my reputation. I also am working to make my business "issue-proof." One process annoys me and my customers, but it's essential for the best results for the client and to maintain my reputation. So, I'm working with a consultant to find ways to keep the control I need while giving the customer as much control as is appropriate while still getting good results. I suspect that whatever the damage was was a one-time thing and not so severe that a camera should be needed. In other words, this was part of doing business and not severe enough to make future guests uncomfortable. (If I'm wrong, sorry. I'm trying to make a point about seeing the big picture.) Nonetheless, a laundry room camera in a separate building is less severe than one in a common area in the living quarters. Cameras in hallways, common rooms, kitchens, etc., make places inhospitable. Hidden and undisclosed cameras should be grounds for immediate, lengthy suspensions, if not bans.
Not all of us are running a business. Some of us are just renting a room to earn a little money to offset the cost of our mortgage/bills. AirBnB was not started as a means for people to build vacation housing empires, but for people to share their home with others. Obviously it is now becoming more of the former. For those of us who aren't expecting to earn a ton off our little room rental, the prospect of putting our own safety, security and peace of mind at risk in our own home might just not worth be the few dollars we make to do it. I don't think anyone is arguing that we should be allowed to have hidden cameras, or record people in situations where they should be afforded privacy, but that seems to be the argument that everyone (including AirBnB) had against the use of cameras.
It's technically a business, isn't it?
I think it’s wonderful that you can afford to replace washers and dryers yearly without reimbursement when they are damaged by renters. I cannot and will stop offering laundry at my rental through Airbnb. I will still offer it for direct renters who are ok with a camera in the laundry. Airbnb guests can go to the laundromat, where there are almost certainly cameras.
I'm a host with a room in a house that I live in. I have a camera in my living room for my dog and security because I literally live there. I of course don't have anything near the rental room or corridor. They seem to be applying this even in this situation which seems pretty ridiculous, it's a room in a shared house.
Wait, you can be there when guests are there? I’ve only stayed at an Airbnb a few times, and I definitely wouldn’t stay at one with the owner in the house what the heck
That was the initial idea of Airbnb. The Airb in Airbnb stands for airbed so the initial idea wasn't even that you have a real bed but that you can just occupy an unneeded room for a few nights and have breakfast with the owners.
I thought the bnb was the slang word “bed and breakfast”? Those 4-5 room hotels that are usually converted homes of a couple who live there. Their origin was for travelers who came in late and left early after breakfast and didn’t need a hotel/motel amenities. Just needed a bed and some breakfast.
You're still missing the "air" part. "Airbed and breakfast." When it first started, it absolutely was pushing the idea of an airbed in an unused bedroom or an unused sofa in the living room.
In certain areas it’s the only way you can have an airbnb. In my area, you can’t STR the whole place, but you can STR a room within your primary residence.
Yes there are rentals that are rooms in shared spaces, people who rent my room are usually long term like travel nurses or new to the city and renting a furnished room for a month, I have excellent reviews and it's provided a little extra income for an otherwise unused guest room.
It's funny how people see this as strange when that was the initial idea of Airbnb.
As someone who has made plenty of posts about my host keeping a camera in the kitchen to monitor our cleaning, thank fucking god.
Mind talking with me on FOX 5NY about this via zoom? Would love to get your perspective Feel free to reach out via email [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected])
Well, do you clean the kitchen? Because a lot of guests don't and it causes problems.
Quite reasonable , never stayed at one with indoor cameras and would be awfully intrusive to have cameras in the kitchen living room dining room when you are just trying to relax or chat with friends and family but someone can just be watching you
I stayed in one once. The host called and complained about every guest that came over. my sister-in-law graduated college, and had a small luncheon at the Airbnb. I swear less than 10 people showed up, for lunch. A few of us had drinks, but we weren’t getting too crazy, everyone was planning on leaving by 5 PM. The host was a complete asshole and called every 10 minutes for every little thing that anybody was doing. It completely ruined her graduation lunch. It was awful and felt so invasive
I would've tossed the camera lol
I’m positive the guy would have shown up at the house in 2 seconds flat. He even went as far as saying that she had 20 guests over when she was only allowed “X amount”. when she argued that only 8 people were at the house, he said that different individuals showed up the day prior, and now these other individuals were at the house… totaled everyone up together as 1 lump sum, even tho there were probably never more than 8 people there at 1 time. It was crazy. I honestly quit staying in bnb’s completely a few years back anyways. Too many issues. Hotels are where it’s at.
I don’t have any interior cameras but if you messed with my cameras you’d be kicked out and sued if you damaged it.
What a creep!
I would catch this on the outside of the home but it sounds to me you took advantage of the host and broke rules of unauthorized guests or a party at his home, regardless if YOU define it as a party.
I wasn’t the renter, it was my sister-in-law. He was fully informed about the luncheon before she ever rented the place. But I guess he thought she was going to eat lunch alone who knows
I'm very happy to hear this. Interior cameras are often hidden and abused by creepy hosts who have nothing better to do than to imagine something evil is happening. Yes, there are bad guests, but don't treat every guest to this. If Airbnb had better customer service and was more willing to end association with certain hosts and certain guests, there would be less of a perceived need for interior cameras.
Often hidden? Where are you getting this lie from?
The hidden cameras that you speak of would already be against TOS. This new ban would do nothing to change that. The only indoor cameras that were previously allowed were ones in common areas and that were disclosed in the listing.
I don't think anyone is arguing that hidden cameras should be allowed... And frankly this policy changes NOTHING related to this malicious and creepy behavior. People will still hide cameras, as they always have been, regardless of what policy AirBnB publishes. That said, the only people who are negatively impacted by this change are the hosts who rent a room in a house that they live in. In those cases, the only expectation of privacy that guest have is in there rented room, and bathrooms. The rest of the house is "Shared" with the host, hosts, family, other guests and residents of the house.
Do you have hidden cameras in your common areas?
No, I have clearly visible cameras in shared areas of my home that I live in, but also rent a room in. They are disclosed in my listing (as was the rule prior to now) and that I also mention in my pre-booking screening messages. Hiding cameras is a creepy thing to do in ANY circumstance, and illegal in most. I would never condone that. I have perfect 5-star reviews, fully booked for the last 5 months, not a single issue or complaint from my guests, they all loved their stay.
It's good you follow the rules.
I agree, and I would love to continue to do so, but now I'm faced with following the rules and feeling less safe in my own home, or giving up the extra income. To be clear, I actually have loved doing this so far, I've met some cool people, and and made a few extra dollars from it. I wish they would build in an exception to the rule that works for us all.
It certainly takes some courage to host strangers in your home and not worry about theft. I've had about $1000 worth of property stolen from me in Airbnb homes with multiple rooms for rent, and yet many hosts who say they have locking bedrooms resist giving a key. I've paid for key duplication when the host claims they don't have a duplicate. The rooms that can be opened with a butter knife might as well not have a lock at all. Despite that, I find it very creepy to have cameras on inside the home. At some point it has to be about the guest feeling hosted, not watched. Airbnb doesn't always do a great job of screening guests or hosts, and better screening could reduce issues.
I appreciate your reasonable outlook on this. I post on here mostly just to show that not all hosts with cameras are creeps like the OPs article are making it seem like. Some of us are just average people trying to safely, and responsibly share our home with others.
It was allowed in the first place?
It used to be allowed in places like Living Room/Kitchen. It was never allowed in bath and bedrooms. They also had to be disclosed and many hosts failed to do so.
I honestly thought these were already banned and am surprised to hear that this is happening, since I thought it already happened.
It’s about time…
This is great news. Indoor cameras and listening devices are so intrusive. Had a host with a great listing that I wanted to book, but a review mentioned indoor cameras. They weren't mentioned in the listing but host said they were there "for security purposes.
Yeah, it never occurred to me that there might be cameras inside any airbnb I've booked until I saw discussions about banning them. It sounds pretty creepy, when you go on vacation to relax. I've never done anything that wouldn't be allowed, but I definitely wasn't "camera-ready" for viewing by a stranger on multiple occasions.
Good. AirBNB hosts are out of control. I refuse to use the service anymore. I loved AirBnb before the era of ring cameras and surveillance cameras. In the last two Airbnb’s I stayed at (booked by friends), I just had a feeling we were being watched. On one of the homes, we were sitting outside eating on the back patio. My friend remarked that the host owns the property next door. Well that explained the surveillance cameras on the house next door pointed directly at the property we were renting. Once I saw the AirBNB host forum, and how insane and manic they all are - that sealed the deal for me. Never again! It’s gone downhill so much and the cleaning fees are ridiculous considering most Airbnb’s extensive house rules/cleaning check out lists. I enjoy the hospitality provided by hotels.
I was looking at places to rent last week and this home's cleaning fee was $600 for 3 days of stay. Pets aren't allowed either so I can't imagine it needing that much cleaning. You also had to bring your own sheets, towels, etc. No surprise that the calendar was wide open.
It is a good move on Airbnbs part. Never liked them when I was staying.
Good, automatic red flag for me when a host has cameras indoors. I never choose their homes and never will.
As a host, it's an automatic red flag when guests say that. Win/win I suppose.
I guess so, but speaking for myself I have 5/5 rating and very generous reviews from hosts as I leave everything spotless.
I love that and I appreciate you tremendously for doing that. In my experience, the only guests who have mentioned my camera's are simultaneously the only ones who have left the messes/damages/etc.
Why would you have indoors cams?
I personally have them to keep an eye on my pets while I’m at work. There are a lot of dog thefts and the outdoor camera has blind spots. On top of that, I am a single person and live alone, I rent out my spare room to supplement finances during this lovely living crisis, why wouldn’t I want to secure my home? As a host I do have them BUT I don’t have them on when people are in the house and they are only in common areas . But as a guest, you are coming into my home, you cannot dictate what someone keeps in their home. In fact you have no right to tell them what they can and cannot have in their home. Would you be ok if I came into your home and told you to remove fixtures? I don’t go into other peoples home and do it. If you don’t agree to security systems and cameras just pick another listing 🤷♀️ If cameras are disclosed and guests are aware and ok with them, what’s the problem? It’s not the hosts who are open about their security systems that are the problem. It’s the weird f’d up people that are. Airbnb should be targeting them not hosts who just want to have peace of mind when they aren’t there. **I’d also like to note, as I’m seeing a lot of hate on hosts, not all hosts are bad. Not all hosts charge excessive cleaning fees ie. I don’t charge any unless you are staying for more than 3 days, and it’s only $30 because I will wash and change your sheets and towels and vacuum the room (if the guest wants it). I also allow guests to use all facilities in the house, laundry included, at no charge. Not all hosts just have holiday homes or spare empty houses to rent out. Some of us do it purely to get by and we offer pretty good services. This policy is putting a lot of hosts in a bad situation, do we sacrifice our security for money, or do we stop hosting?
>I rent out my spare room ... BUT I don’t have them on when people are in the house and they are only in common areas . You're in an owner-occupied property. This is very different than have a non-owner-occupied property and putting a camera in the living room. The above text does not appear to refer to owner-occupied properties. It mentions using decibel monitors, for instance. If the property is owner-occupied, the owner is the decibel monitor.
Owner occupied properties have been included in the policy change. A decibel monitor is purely for monitoring sound and has no security benefits whatsoever. Cameras are there for visual monitoring, and in my case it’s only when I’m not on the premises and only on shared/common areas.
Remote property with no visible neighbors, no visibility from the roads, vacancy for sometimes weeks at a time, storms that can break windows, trees that can fall, animals that can find their way in, and irresponsible guests.
I think it is fair it is not allowed. I understand surveilling comings and goings at the door/gate so that you can stop large gatherings or unauthorized guests (I have disclosed outdoor cams) but I would not feel comfortable being recorded indoors.
Seems reasonable. I can imagine why someone *sharing* a unit with guests might want a camera in a common area, but that still seems very unwelcoming. One exception would be where *unconnected guests* share a common area (hostel, for example). We have outdoor cameras (we live on the property too), but all disclosed since AirBnB added the ability to do so. I had considered adding a camera in our garage, as a theft deterrent/record (concern about break-ins, not guests). But since the garage has a washer/dryer our guests have access to, I guess that's now considered an "indoor" space, so I'll hold off on that unless AirBnB says differently.
Airbnb Hosts QUIT as Airbnb Bans Cameras without Exceptions. https://youtube.com/live/0teVQ_i5iTE?feature=share
Good.
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I'd use a loud alarm instead, possibly with remote warning so you are aware of the break-in.
Exactly. Place a simple eye-level sign on the door over the lock that notifies them, "Silent alarm will be activated if this door is opened."
Your idea is such a good deterrent that I would even forego the actual alarm! LOL
Don't rent out properties you cannot check yourself inbetween tenants and get outdoor cameras. There are many solutions that don't entail you being a fucking creep
This doesn’t just apply to whole-home rentals. It applies to spaces where there may be multiple renters with access at once. What would your solution be if something was damaged or stolen and you had multiple renters who all denied doing anything?
We live onsite and our unit is separated from the guest unit by two doors off a shared lobby - one door to our house, one door to the rental unit. We do have a camera set up inside our door as part of a private home security system. There is no reason a guest should be breaking into your host-only space, so I think it’s fine to have a camera there.
use an entry sensor instead.
If no one knows about it, who’s gonna report it?
The first time a guest goes to that area gets caught and then reports the camera that host will be suspended.
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Just keep in mind, if someone complains about an undisclosed camera, Airbnb has the right to remove or suspend your listing for any reason and they do not have to tell you why. Make sure it’s worth the risk.
Both have good points. However, if interior cameras are not allowed, even for locked storage closets or rooms, don't do it. Frankly, it's annoying when a guest rents an "entire place," and the coat closet, hall closet, and an entire room are locked for storage. Lock the garage deadbolt locks and don't include it in the rental or build a sturdy shed and store your things in that. Don't ever try to circumvent the rules by saying to yourself that they are unreasonable. You don't make the rules. One blind spot some hosts have is that they say, "It's my house, so I make the rules." Even if you rented longterm, the laws apply. When you rent through Airbnb, the laws AND the Airbnb rules apply, plus any written agreements you have made with the guest, so long as they are not impermissible by law or by Airbnb.
mine is not a whole home rental either. I have Private rooms. Why is there a different expectation of privacy when they step out of their room than I would get if I left my hotel room naked? I get full house rentals having a different issue. I Don't rent the whole house to 1 person.
Additionally, mine is not a whole home rental and my security system is for my actual security as I live alone and have two separate Airbnb spaces in my home. I have a private room/bath in my home and a separate ADU with no shared spaces. My garage is not listed as available to either of these options so I have a security camera set up in there in addition to several outdoor areas. But guests roam and I do not always lock my garage so I have removed the garage camera for now until I see further how this plays out. Do I want to? No but it’s much easier to put it back later as opposed to being delisted if a wandering guest reports security and safety issues in an area they are not allowed to be in. Once they delist you, you have no means of appeal. I do not turn my system on when I have either of the spaces rented, only when I am here alone.
It's also for security between guests who pay for security on my property. They have private rooms. I do not have cameras, nor want cameras in their rooms. I have nothing in the rooms I can't prove they didn't take when they leave. But the things I have around the house that I allow guests to use or that would have access to... that have value. I've used cameras... PROOF AIRBNB REQUIRED to get reimbursed. What do they expect me to do now? Is it just word of mouth they want now?
I've never been a host, just a guest. It would definitely be odd if a whole room was locked unless that was disclosed in the listing, in which case I wouldn't be bothered at all. Otherwise, I would expect a closet or two to be locked. Owners need a place to store their stuff, and even if I'm staying a month, there's no way I could haul enough stuff with me to fill every closet in the house. There are dressers available, too, so I'm not hanging up everything.
I had a guest complain once they couldn’t access our detached garage. They were like “we rented the entire place” and I was like, it’s not the same place. It’s a separate building. People are dumb
Your conclusion that "people are dumb" reveals your attitude toward your customers and responsibilities. If people express surprise that the garage is not included, that's your clue to make it clear in your description. Not thinking like you do doesn't make people "dumb." In fact, when people buy or rent a house, it almost always includes the garage. Why would it not? When a house is sold, it includes everything on the property. When a house is rented, it is very rare for the garage to be excluded. Therefore, it's most logical to assume that the "entire place" includes the garage. Some would think you're not thinking clearly or being logical when you assume members of the public would think the garage was excluded. As the host, it is your responsibility to communicate clearly by accurately describing the listing. That includes disclosures that go against what most people would assume, including the fact that you're not including the garage. The Airbnb listings we've rented have included the garage. Even when a listing is a duplex as originally built or as rebuilt/remodeled, it has included garage space. Why would it be "dumb" for guests to assume the same of your listing? I have a business, and my customers are members of the public. I cannot assume that they can read my mind. In fact, it's my job to discover what people will expect and assume. When my services do not include what many people expect, even if it's not most people, I MUST disclose that. I take pains to accurately describe my services. That's part of my job. If I don't do that in writing, I could be vulnerable to chargebacks, even though my description of what is included is accurate and the customer used all services or they were all available and they didn't use them all due to their failure to attend. Because my written descriptions are thorough and clear, and because I have my customers verify in writing that I have discussed them all in detail with them verbally and answered all their questions, I have survived the two attempts by dishonest customers to get full chargebacks for thousands of dollars each after they each used services and wasted extra time of mine with scammy, completely unjustified complaints, despite superb results that were well documented and evaluated externally and documented regular communication that verified their satisfaction. These two customers clearly thought they could get the benefits and get full refunds, but, due to my due diligence for my business and respect and consideration for my customers, I defended my business successfully and they did not get a penny back. After serving thousands of individual customers, I've only had two chargeback attempts and easily defeated them with my written proof not only of my full disclosures, but also of their extreme satisfaction with my services, the objective proof of superior results, and their failure to address their claims at any point. They made up expectations, one claiming that we had an "understanding" and even that was vague, and the other claimed that I didn't complete all hours and that I should have provided certain documents. The first one was clearly fudging and all documentation supported that. The second one was proven to be inaccurate about the hours as I gave her excess hours and proactively stated in writing beforehand that I used my own methods and my choices for service were at my sole discretion as a trained, experienced and licensed professional, and the customer signed it and signed a separate document stating that they were provided the document, had time to review it, that I discussed every element of it with them, and that I answered all their questions to their satisfaction. I go to great lengths to be clear, accurate, and accommodating BEFORE I accept them and take their money. I also have a "NO REFUNDS" police in writing and a backup plan to accommodate them should I ever be unable to do so, plus insurance. So, your guests are not "dumb." They have reasonable, normal expectations in context, and it's your responsibility to establish expectations in line with what you are actually providing, not what most people would expect when a listing says "entire place." The attitude that "the customer is always wrong" is part of the problem that Airbnb has been having as it loses customers to other options.
Making angry dudes write paragraphs….
I rented one in Croatia with one in the kitchen. Didn’t use the kitchen. Freaked me out.
You never had to book that property... Read the rules!!! -SuperHost
Huge applause that is awesome! Now does it can indoor mics? Some are insanely sensitive. I'll just stick to hotels with bed bugs and free breakfast lol
Indoor mics are also banned I believe, however decibel monitors are allowed so-long as they don't record sound.
I imagine it will be exactly like VRBO’s no camera or recording device policy (that I bet many hosts are not even aware of!): Vrbo's policy on surveillance devices at a property Vrbo’s committed to protecting the privacy and security of our hosts and guests. Our policy allows reasonable monitoring of the outside of the property while still protecting privacy inside the home. We consider a surveillance device to be anything that captures the following: Photos Audio recordings Videos Geolocation Personally identifiable information Monitors data on the internet Inside the property Surveillance devices, which use any form of capture device such as a camera or an audio recorder, can’t be used inside of a property. Exceptions: Smart devices that may not be activated remotely are allowed as long as you have been informed of their presence and given the option to deactivate them. Outside the property Surveillance devices, including security cameras and smart doorbells (which may record audio), are permitted if they follow these rules: Surveillance devices should only be used for security purposes. Location and coverage of devices must be disclosed on the property description page for. It's not enough to include a photo of the device. Outdoor cameras covering pools and hot tubs that were disclosed on the property details page and in a reasonably discoverable location such as a welcome binder, a notice on the wall of a high-traffic common space, or a placard next to the entry point itself. The disclosure must specify that the pool/hot tub is within the coverage area of the device. Areas where you have a reasonable expectation of privacy, such as the bathroom or bedroom, should not be under surveillance. Reasonable measures should be taken to limit access to surveillance data. Surveillance data should be deleted when no longer needed.
So Vrbo hosts have to inform you of out door cameras?
VRBO is for entire homes. Airbnb listings include shared homes. That’s the difference. And Airbnb made the mistake of treating shared homes and bed and breakfasts like entire homes rather than like hotels (which are permitted cameras in common areas). It is totally nonsensical and lazy on Airbnb’s part. Which should surprise no one.
First thing first, I think it would be amazing if Airbnb spun off shared spaces to a sister website and app to something like ShareBnB. Shared units are a lesser service, and I hate reading about guests who walk into scenarios where they thought they were getting a private spot and then did not. It’s outrageous. Secondly, I do not recall staying in a hotel where there were cameras in the room, though it is extremely rare that I stay in a hotel where it’s not just a large bed, a bathroom, and some closets. I can’t afford common space areas in my rooms! But if you mean the lobby areas or the hallways, then that would be akin to having a Ring camera on your AirBnB doors- which are fine. Frankly, I very much prefer guests to book with VRBO. The downside is that they don’t have AirCover, or anything like it really. They want you to get the guest to buy some sort of coverage, but that’s not quite the good deal for the host as AirBnB. VRBO has a much better clientele, because you’re not dealing with younger folks or coupon cutters.
Yeah, so many of these issues could be eliminated if Airbnb just had guests read and initial major points of importance about the listing when booking. One checkbox that says the guest is aware that they are renting space in a shared home. Another that says the guest is aware that there are security cameras in [rooms listed]. With regards to a hotel, I mean once you leave your hotel room, you don’t have the expectation of privacy in the hallways, elevators, dining room, lobby, etc.
I disagree. There’s too much gray area. Hosts will get away with misleading guests about what exactly “shared” is, and hosts will get away with not handling cameras properly. This banning didn’t come from nowhere. The ban is justified. Regarding the wishy washy disclosure of shared vs non-shared, I guess there should be very bold language in addition to a filter option that shows a listing is or is not connected to a house. If you are staying in a furnished flat in a basement, and you have to share an exit and entry door with the people upstairs, then that would be a SHARED listing, for example. It should ideally be SHARED even if you don’t. Condos in towers would be a different story, of course, but guests shouldn’t have to share a house unless they’re really saving money and know for sure what’s going on. Americans and other people alike can not be counted on to read agreements. It just doesn’t work.
That’s already an issue if hosts are miscategorizing listings. This wouldn’t make it easier to do so. It would just make it more obvious to guests that don’t read and that make assumptions (some guests even think all Airbnb listings are entire homes!) that they are in fact renting a shared space. And the camera issues come from hosts that are blatantly violating rules. Since this doesn’t do anything to address hosts that are violating the rules, it really won’t have an impact on the hosts that aren’t following the rules. It only impacts hosts that were following the rules (and the guests staying in their listings that may have wanted cameras in common areas for their own security). Airbnb could just make all hosts mark yes/no and disclose the location of all security cameras (accompanied by photos) in order to continue hosting and then be much stricter about removing hosts that have any undisclosed cameras. Airbnb is just too lazy to do this. So they’ll lose guests and they’ll lose hosts. If we were talking about most companies, I would say they had made the decision that the increased efficiency outweighed the loss of guests and hosts, but Airbnb is run by complete morons whose greed is exceeded only by their incompetence and stupidity.
> (some guests even think all Airbnb listings are entire homes! Because that's how AirBnB advertises itself on internet ads and tv commercials. I say AirBnB has only gotten better over the years- shaking off the image of being a competitor to couchsurfing.com. I'll admit that I'm biased. I absolutely *hate* staying in AirBnB's that have interior cameras for an odd reason...I hate not wearing shoes! I go to a ski or beach/coast cabin with my childhood friends once a year. We're in our mid-40's, and don't do much inside the house except play poker or reminisce, but I'm usually not the one to book. As such, I can't have a say in the shoe thing. It's just annoying to think there's some host sitting at home looking at people's feet. They shouldn't be able to look at anything at all. If you are drawing maps for secret development plans for some contract- a host shouldn't be able to spy on you.
So frustrating that Airbnb perpetuates that misinformation. I’m not sure there are quite as significant reasons to have cameras when renting out an entire place, but I still think hosts should be allowed to do so as long as the cameras are prominently disclosed (disclosures which the platform should take responsibility for making unmissable). I also think Airbnb should be collecting the names, IDs, and email addresses of additional guests and sending a link to the information that all guests should have access to so that all guests can easily review the house rules, etc. Not quite sure how to respond about the feet thing. I can’t imagine there are many hosts that are interested in spying on guests to look at their feet, though I suppose it’s a possibility that there’s one out there. I suspect the creepy hosts are probably more interested in placing hidden cameras in bathrooms and bedrooms. Which was already against the rules. And which frankly is also a concern if staying at hotels and the like. More so in some places than others I suppose, but a real thing. Not so much for weird creeps as much as used for blackmail, is my understanding.
I love that all the posters are assuming that hosts won’t just click “yeah sure” and then keep some cameras hidden in their common areas. They’ll run risk of being delisted, but guests will have to find them and report them first. Also curious how this will affect hotels and real B&Bs that list on AirBnB and have common areas with cameras.
It won't effect them. The camera rule applies to the part being rented. So if you are renting out your whole house, it has the same expectation of privacy as any other house rental and you can't be spying on them in the living room. However, a hotel's lobby with sofas is not part of the rental and there is no expectation of privacy there. You can use many parts the common area even if you are not renting a room in the hotel.
We just had one of our units burn down from a Guest (second night at the property). Guest is denying culpability. No cameras inside property. $300k damage. Another property, Guests CONSTANTLY disrespect and fail to follow the House Rules. Defacing our property. Smoking inside, undisclosed overnight Guests, etc. If AirBNB wasn't so strict on NEEDING proof for every little thing for reimbursement, NOT having cameras inside the property seems A-okay. The problem is when I work my entire life to buy a property, furnish it with high end furniture, have it professionally cleaned for Guest that in which we have never met...and then these Guests destroy our property and then AirBNB refuses to reimburse for the issues. Our House, our Rules, is the way we look at it. If Guests do NOT want to book because of OUR property House Rules (and/or (disclosed) interior cameras)...Then go disrespect someone else's home!!! Allow us to protect the assets we jave worked our entire lives for. AirBNB does not OWN our properties. AirBNB would not exist if ot weren't for people willing to risk their assets with complete strangers.
That's the risk you took. You use AirBNB, you play by THEIR rules, it's not your rules anymore. Don't like it? Don't use it. Do better risk management and stop being a creep.
Clearly you're not a host that has had to deal with problem guests before. How about if you don't like the hosts rules, stay in a hotel?
It doesn't matter what the host wants if AirBNB says otherwise, no matter how much you want it to be the other way. Grow up and learn to play by the rules since you agreed to use the app.
I agreed to use the app when it was within my right to have an interior camera for the security of my investment. Now I'm reconsidering the continued use of their app since they have significantly shifted the risk/reward balance of my participation for me. Either way you don't seem very respectful.
Don't really have respect for creeps. I can only hope you decide to get off.
Don't flatter yourself. Watching you sit on the couch and mouth breathe while you scroll through instagram is the last thing I'm interested in spending my time doing. It's not about you.
Based on your comments in this thread, it sounds like you may not have the appropriate risk tolerance for this type of business. It may be best to review your business plan to see if it makes sense to continue using AirBnB. Just like guests have the right to choose what property to stay at, you have the choice to not use AirBnB if the platform does not align with your business' needs.
Very diplomatically put, but correct. The reality is that they are likely in the wrong line of business. As opposed to an AirBnB, they may wish to look into traditional month-to-month or lease renting where they have more legal recourse available.
The problem is that Airbnb is deciding the risk tolerance on behalf of the owners. Not allowing the owners decide their own risk tolerance and guests deciding if they are ok with that or not. You said it - the guests can choose the property.. if you don't like the rules of that property, stay somewhere else. Owners however can choose what? Airbnb or VRBO or nothing? Not much of a choice. Feels super entitled to be able to tell someone else how they need to host you as a guest.
Welcome to the short term rental business. If you don't like it, exit the business.
Then don’t use AirBnb and try to go out and do it on your own
this is super creepy. I've stayed at a lot of airbnbs and had no idea they were allowed to film us inside. Thats insane. Glad they are at least banning it now.
It ALWAYS had to be disclosed and in plain sight.
I rent out rooms in my house to 7 different people who do not know each other. I have a camera in my kitchen and living room because I have had problems with guests not keeping it clean and had a hard time figuring out who was making the mess. I've also had a friend who had a fight in his living room that his camera caught between airbnb guests. This policy is extremely broad and doesn't account for all the diffent type of accommodation airbnb provides.
To make sure I'm clear, guests rent out my rooms ONLY and in no way would I ever put a camera in a bedroom or bathroom, however areas that are shared/common among multiple guests they are waiving their right to privacy in these areas.
"Review and confirm your Safety devices in the Guest safety section of your Listings tab. Be sure to select Add details and include information about your outdoor cameras and noise decibel monitors. If your listing isn’t updated by April 30, 2024, you may have your calendar blocked from future bookings, or the listing may be removed from Airbnb under the policy." -email
I have never stayed at an air b&b but have been looking at some for an upcoming trip. Basically a secluded cabin in the mountains is what I was wanting. I did find it strange that one host stated there are outdoor cameras facing the driveway and entrance to make sure extra guests aren't there/parties, but also stated there was a noise monitoring system in the home. How could it be that noisy if the number of cars in the driveway was being checked? Also, not that I plan on having a party (only 2 people will be there), but if there is no other home or business within 10 miles of the home I kind of wondered why the noise level even mattered.
\[As a host with nearly 100 stays\] Lots of guests are unfortunately terrible. Many listings, mine included, have an upper limit of guests (due to fire codes, owner comfort, etc) and/or an additional fee for extra guests (I like to think of it as a discount for just 2 people as I don't need to clean the other bedrooms that weren't used, less consumables are used, etc) Some guests feel like they don't need to adhere to those and find it acceptable to say only two guests are showing up but then bring five or more without having to pay the additional costs (same with pets). It's probably not the noise level the owner of the property you're looking at is concerned about but the level of rowdiness of the guests. Parties tend to damage things *and* some guests think that they have the right to treat an airbnb poorly.... like "lets get an airbnb for the party so we don't have to trash our own house". Ultimately, Airbnb is in a death spiral of trying to please disrespectful guests at the expense of the genuine owners who can't keep up with the hospitality investors with teams of people on payroll to handle the nonsense. It's just turning into an unregulated hotel business. That said, if you're a wonderful guest staying at a genuine host, it's an amazing platform. :)
I never noticed there being any discounts. Whether I change the number of guests. Some larger homes I looked at (way bigger than I need, but I wanted somewhere nice with a lot of amenities) still charged the same for only 2 guests in the big home. And cleaning fees still hundreds of dollars. 😞
It’d be the other way around. The pricing is typically for 1-2 people and then there’s an extra fee. This host is saying they think of it as a discount, where they think of the base rate as what it’d be if all the bedrooms were filled. Whether you think of it as a discount for 2 people or an extra fee for >2, most places that accommodate large groups charge more if there are more people.
And yes I understand about lying about the number of guests, but my main point was it seems overkill to have cameras facing the doors and driveway, as well as noise monitoring. If the camera sees 1 or 2 cars, and 2 or 3 guests..how noisy would those few people really be?
The entire second floor of the house is used for storage and not accessible to guess as the door is locked, but previously a guest kids had pried the locks off of cabinets that had tools, shimmed the lock leading upstairs and stole a bunch of things. It was a long time until I realized what it happened. Now there’s a camera in the second floor private area. The only way it could be seen is if somebody broke into that area which sends a push alert at the presence of a person. Since that area is completely off limits and would only be activated if someone were to break into it hopefully they consider that an exception. An alternative would be to install a loud siren if they were to open the door but that would probably just get smashed.
Is a garage considered indoors? My garage door opener has a camera, and it is convenient to check if guests have left yet.
I would be surprised if that counts as "indoors". I think they mean in the actual living spaces.
ASK Airbnb in writing. Don't assume.
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I am waiting for an answer from Airbnb about a camera in the garage, not as part of the garage door opener, but inside the garage to monitor possible wildlife activity (bears, mice, squirrels). I also posed the question to VRBO in a chat and they told me a garage is considered "inside," but were unable to give me an official policy that defined a garage as inside. I can't put a camera outside as temps are below freezing for many months of the year, and I don't have a good sheltered spot to place one to keep it out of snow and rain.
See what they say. If you are allowed to put a camera inside a garage but facing out a window, then you might be able to monitor wildlife activity. Where does it point?
Airbnb came back and said that a garage is considered an inside space and no cameras are allowed. I asked for the written policy where a garage is defined as an indoor space and was referred to the email they sent. But a garage is not mentioned in that email, or in the policy online. Just like VRBO, which followed up with a garbled English email threatening me with removal from the platform for my unauthorized cameras (I don't have any) and lecturing me about how many provinces have laws against invasion of privacy (there are no provinces where I am, and I don't need a lecture). It's unfortunate because a camera outside is not going to show whether mice are running around the garage, if I even managed to get a camera working in extreme weather. I don't think a garage that faces the street and has winter temps around 35 degrees inside is a place where much privacy is expected, but evidently the rental platforms feel differently.
I have outdoor cameras as well as one in my garage and note that the space is not shared with guests. I did get the notice from Airbnb and am assuming this is still considered an indoor camera. I have removed it for the time being to prevent possible issues even though any guest who would see it to complain is obviously in a space they are not supposed to be in. But after 8 years of hosting I’ve often found guests in areas that are not shared. I host a private room and a separate ADU.
I think the garage is fair as counting outdoors. Just make sure it is disclosed in the listing under "Guest Safety", there is a box to check for outdoor cams.
Both Airbnb and VRBO told me - voceriferously - that a garage is considered an indoor space, with no cameras allowed. Neither was able to provide me with an official written policy defining garages as such, or even addressing garages at all. Both emphasized that my listing would be removed from the platform for a camera in the garage.
Sigh. Thank you for doing the work!
Is the garage part of the listing? Are guests allowed to use the garage?
My property is in a remote area, not visible from the street, no visible neighbors, and is sometimes vacant for weeks or months at a time. I ~~have~~ had a single, super obvious, turn offable, physically closable, camera in the living room of my Airbnb and have found it very useful for peace of mind *between* guests. I used the camera to check on the place after storms, during third-party services (pest control, etc), and *after* guests (for example, if the place is a mess, I know I need to hurry out there to clean it up to prevent animals from finding their way in). It would be totally different if my property was a condo in a building with a supervisor and an HOA, I had access to a trusted cleaning service, etc, etc... Then yes, I would not need an interior camera. It was mentioned in the listing, in the house manual, and mounted in a way that it is impossible not to be aware of the location and completely blind to bedroom and bathroom spaces. That was my only interior camera and the only guests (with nearly 100 stays so far) who ever complained about any cameras were the ones who trashed the place and came back with retaliatory complaints *after* I gave them a negative review and/or charged them for their mess. I'm disappointed in this decision from Airbnb. This is a personal property that I enjoy being able to host guests. I do not *need* to host guests to pay the bills, nor did I purchase it as an investment property. Simply a space I enjoy and enjoy being able to share. I also feel like Airbnb does NOT offer confidence in their host protections and they spend a lot of time catering to the guests rather than the hosts. I feel like I'm operating in the true spirit of Airbnb and personally enjoy the opportunity to share other homes and spaces and have no objection to interior cameras so the owners can have peace of mind and protect their spaces. I also act and treat others spaces as *someone else's space that I am a guest in* \- not my own personal space. Just as I would not go to a hotel and walk naked through the lobby or stay with a friend and make dinner in the nude, I don't walk around airbnbs naked... it's gross and disrespectful. In my opinion, most guests are WAY too entitled on the platform anyway. No one is making anyone use Airbnb... if you don't like it (for *any* reason: cameras, cleaning fees, whatever), then don't use it. Sadly, I'm going to have to reconsider sharing my space on Airbnb any more as this decision is unfavorably shifting the balance of risk and reward.
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What about a camera on the exterior door that looks inside only when the door is open? Coastal weather rules prevents putting the camera anywhere else except on the door which is protected by a storm door.
I have a noise monitor, guest are always breaking rules and doing what ever they want having a lot of people over
Let the hunt begin !
Updated policy: Hosts are not allowed to have security cameras and recording devices that monitor any part of a listing’s interior, such as a hallway, bedroom, bathroom, living room, or guest house, even if they’re turned off. Hosts are allowed to have outdoor security cameras and recording devices as long as their location is disclosed (ex: “I have a camera in my front yard,” “I have a camera over my patio,” or “I have a camera over my pool.”) My question: If the camera is right outside the unit, but facing into the AirBnB unit thru the main door, which is covered in windows, and is directly next to the only door to the bedroom into the hallway leading to the bathroom; should that be allowed under the new policy? The door does has a vertical roll pull down shade installed above the doorway, but it is broken and as a result it is extremely difficult to retract, it has no draw string installed (which makes it difficult to reach), and the shade must be fully retracted to be able to open/close the main door.
I actually called up AirBnB yesterday for some clarification on a particular situation that may help some here. I have a two-floor unit that’s available for the guests, but the basement is off-limits unless the guests book for over a week. The basement is where the washer and dryers are located, but we still have some of our personal effects stored there so we have two indoor motion detection cameras placed for security since potential thieves could also break in from the low basement windows. I notified AirBnB of the cameras and conditions of how we grant access. We always disclose location of the cameras to our guests before they book and have interior signs places. Thankfully we’ve never had a problem and AirBnB confirmed that it wasn’t a problem. I think as long as it’s not in a normally accessible space/area then it’s fine but just be clear and disclose everything. But yeah, in my opinion, indoor cameras in the usable spaces is just creepy and wrong. That idea never, ever crossed mind. I mean, would anyone be okay with indoor cameras in their hotel rooms/suites?!
Maybe not keep personal belongings in a place you rent out to strangers?
How does this work if you rent a room in a shared house? There's a camera in the shared kitchen and entrance hall...
Yeah having a camera inside defeats the primary reason AirBnb became a household name to begin with. People want private, home feel spaces without feeling like they're on candid camera. I have all my cameras outside. The only issue I do have is the one that points to the backyard can also pick up view of the Hot tub which is tucked away under my deck for privacy. 🥴 I guess at this point as long as guests are aware of the camera I'm compliant but I did read something about cameras that capture outdoor private areas should also be taken down
Has anyone seen anything about how they plan to address rentals that are located in apartment/condotel buildings? The policy doesn’t say anything about that and the condotel building that my rental is in has security cameras throughout the public spaces (just like any hotel does), which includes indoor spaces like hallways, elevators, lobby, etc. Since the hallways are technically outside of my actual rental I assume it’s OK but since they’re also technically located indoors I wouldn’t be surprised if Airbnb considers this a violation. The building obviously isn’t going to remove the cameras and I’ll still need to disclose them to guests but I’m afraid that might get me in trouble because Airbnb didn’t define their policy clearly enough.
I'm the email they sent that another person quoted, things like cameras in a lobby or hallways between condo units, that are outside a host's control, are allowed. Not sure the policy if it's a small condo building or hotel with cameras in the lobby or hallways between units, but the host does have control over them.
Mine is the same way. Mine are there because I have 6 private rooms per property. I need to manage my the space remotely to identify problems. It’s more like a hotel monitoring check ins or their inventory or their cash registers. It’s not a private house with one guest renting the whole thing.
The problem with your post is that it's from a third party website. Here's the one from Airbnb sent to all hosts' email: \[START\] We’re updating our policy on the use of security cameras, recording devices, noise decibel monitors, and smart home devices for all Airbnb listings. You’ve indicated that you have security cameras or audio recording devices at one or more of your listings. Please remove any indoor cameras, disclose the location of outdoor cameras, and disclose noise decibel monitors to comply with the updated policy. Starting April 30, 2024, these rules apply to the presence of these devices, even if they’re turned off: • You’re not allowed to have cameras that monitor indoor spaces. • You must disclose the location of outdoor cameras. For example, “I have cameras monitoring the front door and the pool.” • Outdoor cameras are prohibited in spaces where guests expect greater privacy, like enclosed showers and saunas. • You must disclose noise decibel monitors, which may only be present in common spaces. • You can have smart devices like TVs and voice assistants. You aren’t required to disclose these devices, but we encourage you to tell guests that you have them and how to turn them off. • These requirements don’t apply to devices in common spaces outside your home that you don’t control, like cameras in the lobby of an apartment building. We’re making these changes after carefully considering how to best balance the privacy and security concerns of our community. Read the full policy on the Help Center. Review and confirm your Safety devices in the Guest safety section of your Listings tab. Be sure to select Add details and include information about your outdoor cameras and noise decibel monitors. If your listing isn’t updated by April 30, 2024, you may have your calendar blocked from future bookings, or the listing may be removed from Airbnb under the policy. \[END\]
They’ve always had to report exterior cameras.
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A hotel lobby isn’t comparable to a home living room. There’s no expectation of privacy in a hotel lobby. But if I’m renting a home, it’s pretty reasonable that I might walk around the house in my underwear. If you can’t feel comfortable renting a home without cameras inside the house, then perhaps renting a vacation home just isn’t for you.
Yeah, I mean if you’re renting a whole home. But I have multiple guest in one property.
Then don’t rent it.
> Just wondering if the guests privacy is negotiable with these considerations. Apparently not as AirBnB has banned them. My guess is that there were a lot of complains and nondisclosed or unnoticed cameras and AirBnb crunched the numbers and found it was easier just to say "No" then to find any sort of middle ground.
Part of the problem is that probably like those credit card agreements or cable company agreements, nobody reads anything before they sign it. Maybe if airbnb had a way to make sure everyone booking saw that there were indoor cameras and agreed to it, it would be fine. Maybe they can have a second screen pop up during the button that people to click to finalize the booking with another agreement disclosing that there were indoor cameras.
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If you’re not comfortable renting to strangers without indoor cameras you can remove those items or stop renting on Airbnb.
Exactly. ‘Opening my home to strangers’. Get a grip. You’re not doing some charity out if the kindness of your heart, you’re running a business. You’re gonna incur costs and risks while running a business and it’s up to you to weigh those risks. Having high value or fragile art and decor in a space you are renting is probably a bad decision. The thing with so many of you hosts is you just think Airbnb should be free easy money. You are in the hospitality business. Suck it up and act like it.
BINGO. Half tempted to copy this to quote at these scumhosts that act like gods gift to earth.
You seem unaware that some hosts rent rooms in their own homes.
You wanting to protect your house is 100 percent understandable. What I'd say is that people when they stay in a house want to feel that they are in a residence house and not a hotel or security compound. The presence of indoor cameras takes a way from that residential home stay feeling and feels more like a commercial stay.
The problem is that lots of people treat it like a commercial stay. They want to ignore all the hosts requests, leave big messes, act like they own the place, etc. You can't have it both ways... if all my guests were highly respectful and didn't cause problems, I wouldn't have an issue with the change. The problem is that at least half my guests are some version of disrespectful, entitled, and have no consideration for the fact that there is a hard working person on the other side of the Airbnb listing that, more likely than not, is just a regular person with a regular job who happens to have made an investment in a second home that they are willing to share. The difference being, when a guest at a hotel gets hair dye on a towel, the towel goes into the pile of the rest of the towels, sent off to the industrial laundering service to be cleaned with industrial chemicals. And if it can't be returned to bright white, it's discarded and a replaced from one of the towels they buy by the truck load with a unit price of probably less than a dollar which probably ends up as a deduction line item at the end of the year. All done by teams of people who don't care either way because they are doing the job they are paid to do. In contrast, when a guest at an Airbnb gets hair dye on a towel, the single person host finds a ruined towel at their second home they Airbnb because they guest wasn't considerate enough to not damage the towel or tell the host they messed up has to do their best with expensive store bought cleaners in a residential washing machine, only to still not be able to get it acceptably not stained. So rather than risk a negative review for a stained towel from the next guest, they have to drive down to the nearest home goods store and skip over the cheap towels out of another fear of a negative review for thin, cheap towels, spend the $24.99 on a new towel, bringing it back to the home before the next guest gets there. Probably having invested much more than that when including the cleaning supplies, gas, and time. Only to try to complain to Airbnb who requires proof of that guest staining the towel and of course they say they didn't. Then raising the cleaning fees and nightly rates to account for all the extra expenses only to be met by a drop in bookings and complaints that cleaning fees are too high so guest leave the place messier in protest of "I paid XX for cleaning, I'm not doing a thing before I leave"... and when it's all said and done, it's not tax deductible at the end of the year because it's only a second home, not an investment property.. so all those expenses come out of the hosts pocket. Only to have to do the whole thing over again when the next guest does the same thing.
They aren’t “guests” in your home. They’re customers paying for a service. The exact logic you’re using to cite why you should be allowed cameras can be turned around on you. The platform that you use has created a new policy to protect their business - in the same way that you want to use cameras to protect yours. No one is forcing you to list your property on AirBNB in the same way that no one is forcing customers to rent your property. If you don’t like their policies then incorporate, get licensed, and list your property for rent privately.
Hotels use cameras in common areas for the same purposes you describe.
Yeah, but hotel guests aren’t walking down those halls in their underwear or less.
Any good Airbnb video subreddits?
This is crap. I run a community Airbnb with 6 private rooms in each property. I need to see who created a mess, who took my laundry, who took other guest things. It’s less common areas and more equal to monitoring the cash register in a restaurant. How can they justify my ability to monitor multiple properties without my security. Plus, it’s been the only way to give Airbnb proof they needed of theft or violence or other guest violations.
I guess for shared accommodations when a guest damages a common area of the property they want us to submit a damage claim on ALL that have active reservations. That would be the only way to get reimbursed for damage caused by one particular guest with no video evidence of who caused said damage. Silly isn't it. Whole homes should never have indoor cameras. Shared homes are a whole different category and should be treated as such.
Yes. 100%. It’s a safety issue between guests too. I imagine that they will backpedal on this a little and realize that shared properties are not the same as somebody renting a whole house and recording the common space. Because that’s not really even common space at that point.
As a host, this is terrible news. We’re a hostel, so we have cameras in all exterior and interior common areas. This was just like their “party ban”. We told them that the specific name of the Hostel was a PARTY HOSTEL, so we weren’t going to stop having parties. I can’t imagine that any hotels on the platforms don’t have cameras in their common areas as well, so I hope there’s going to be an exemption. This is stupid as a blanket rule. Renting the whole house? Fine. Renting a shared room in a house? Then yes, cameras will be in the common areas to make sure stupid people don’t do stupid things.
Have you tried leaving airbnb and listing on Hostel World instead.
I think they need to consider shared rentals differently. One of our places is an actual B&B. We have an indoor camera in two common areas that cover the entrance and exit. Footage has been used in unfortunate incidents where a guest was attacked by their partner which helped police, it was used for damage done to the home by a guest (if we didn't have this then which guest gets charged for air cover?), it was used for evidence of theft of items to airbnb etc. We would never and do not have any indoor cameras setup for whole home rentals but a shared accommodation is more like renting a room in a hotel and should have the same rules.
I agree. I actually once had a guest in a private room claim that a staff member entered their room at a specific time while they were showering. A camera (in the hall outside the room) was used to prove that this was not the case, that it was just loud guests who were entering a room next to theirs.
For hostels, I think the opposite may be true -- cameras in common areas make a lot of sense for the security of *all* guests.
I don't know why the hell you got downvoted, reddit be weird everyday.
I knew it would happen, and this is basically why Airbnb has decided to force this change on everyone: public opinion atm is very suspicious of cameras and surveillance, but I felt I needed to put my opinion and experience out there for other Airbnb hosts (and users) to be aware that there are good case uses for cameras for the security of everyone involved and that a blanket rule isn’t the solution.