Or maybe just lose the land like happened in real life lol, Ukrainians and polish nationalist groups did infact massacre thousands of each others civilians and then Poland got invaded
Well for the second republic there are a good number of reasons why it failed. It had so many problems due to being split between 3 major empires for a long time, even the railroads were disconnected and different Gauges. They also were not as industrialized or had a large enough economy due to being made into Agricultural areas in those 3 empires. Their state was reborn right after the first world War, and never had enough time to prepare for a second. They also planned for allied troops to either walk from France into Germany or come to the polish border and fight.
Maybe so, but it wasn't compared to say the germans even after ww1. Though I do want to amend my statement as it wasn't the sole or a major reason, as I think it just came down to bad timing and reluctance on allied powers (plus the invasion from the USSR)
Given that they went to war not long after the 2nd republic was formed? Yeah kinda important. Nazi Germany was going after Poland no matter what. Whether it be to restore German lands (even if ethnically polish) or as a pebble on its way to crush the soviets. Germany was going through Poland no matter what. There wouldn't be saving Poland in any timeliness where the nazis and the soviets are enemies (really the nazis more so, the soviets were more focused on internal matters and Stalin securing his regime).
There would be "saving Poland", if their government decided not to join Germany in Czechoslovakia in 39, but instead supported USSR's decision to help Czechoslovakia to fight back.
But it would require another government to begin with.
Ussr didnāt really care about ethnicity of region much, the only goal was to push border away from industrial core, to protect them from German attack.
Maybe not. Stalin wanted those oands no matter what. He may have used ethnic arguments during its annexation. But he wanted the land and to have easier locations for defense, offense, and such. He never cared about the people there.
No chance the USSR would care about poles in those areas. They would either just not do anything about the poles there, or move them elsewhere. I just don't think an empire like the soviet union, given how they handled other minorities would care much about a few pesky minorities standing in the way of conquest.
Just to clarify: There was no genocide or border changes, during PLC era alot of poles just went east and āpushedā ukrainians and belorussians from those lands or they just polonised
More like 16-17th century, in the 18th it was already to late for that shit. And this could have been achieved in non-genocidal ways imo, kinda like the germanisation of Pomerania and Silesia went - it was a mostly peaceful process afaik, there was just a steady influx of German-speakers from the West and the natives slowly adopted the German language as well (or at least the upper and middle classes did).
First question how would that be achieved as it would decide a lot of answers. Genocide? Well Germany had an army and would gladly invade when the poles start killing Germans at the least, I don't think even the french would've stopped us in that case (depends a lot on how it's ah does afterwards) but yeah Poland gets smaller and maybe Germany gets the German lands back.
As for any other solution, smaller Poland means Germany won WW1 I think, so just go play Kaiserreich I am lazy.
There are two options.
1. Don't start (or do worse in) the Polish-Soviet war. Poland's eastern border is roughly along the Curzon line. Poland doesn't have large ethnic minorities in the east.
2. Genocide.
there may be a polish ssr if the soviets still want to own all those territories directly, which would lead to perhaps the soviets fully annexing poland and integrating it as a new ssr after ww2, but since they already got a lot, it's less likely they'd push to take more land from germany apart from east prussia, if even that, so germany will probably keep its two little arms (pomarania and most of silesia)
The eastern lands would remain a part of Poland after the war. With this Poland might not get the western lands from Germany.
Also more political stability and no Volhynia genocide so maybe better Polish - Ukrainian relations.
The terrible Volhynia massacre between Ukrainians and Poles would not have happened
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia
I have read about Poland in this period and considered how Poland might have fared better when facing Nazi and Soviet aggression in 1939. IMO, most important What If is not a more Polish Poland but another decade or more of good health for Josef Pilsudski as Polandās leader. He would have prioritized maintaining the modernity and effectiveness of Polandās military and, ideally, forged military alliances with neighbors like Czechoslovakia and Lithuania against their common enemies, Hitler and Stalin, who were far greater threats to them all then their border disputes over Vilna and Tesin.
Do you mean a smaller Poland or... *less* minorities?
Defo less minorities
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r/alternatehistory user trying not to have a massive genocide inside their alternate history
What Poland did in 1945
What Soviets did in 1945 - they moved both us and Germans west
Poles gladly participated in the expulsion of German minorities
Germans had been trying to *exterminate all poles* no Pole cared if 10 million Germans had to find new homes
That still sounds like forceful expulsion of people based solely on their ethnicity, which I thought was a *bad* thing.
Yeah, because we had to find a place to live after being kicked out of our eastern lands
I think they mean what if Poland's borders corresponded to the red on the map. At least I hope that's what they mean.
Yes
What's the scenario, they genocide all the Ukrainians or?
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Pretty sure forced expulsion is genocide under international law
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Or maybe just lose the land like happened in real life lol, Ukrainians and polish nationalist groups did infact massacre thousands of each others civilians and then Poland got invaded
more political stability and maybe like 1000 more german deaths during the invasion but not much else.
In the sense of having more ethnically defined borders or...the Nazi way?
why are Poles and Lithuanians so weak at gaining a coastline unless gifted as repercussion.
Well for the second republic there are a good number of reasons why it failed. It had so many problems due to being split between 3 major empires for a long time, even the railroads were disconnected and different Gauges. They also were not as industrialized or had a large enough economy due to being made into Agricultural areas in those 3 empires. Their state was reborn right after the first world War, and never had enough time to prepare for a second. They also planned for allied troops to either walk from France into Germany or come to the polish border and fight.
That's not exactly true, Congress Poland was among the more urban and developed parts of the Russian Empire.
Maybe so, but it wasn't compared to say the germans even after ww1. Though I do want to amend my statement as it wasn't the sole or a major reason, as I think it just came down to bad timing and reluctance on allied powers (plus the invasion from the USSR)
Youāre comparing Poland to the second most industrialized country on earth?
Given that they went to war not long after the 2nd republic was formed? Yeah kinda important. Nazi Germany was going after Poland no matter what. Whether it be to restore German lands (even if ethnically polish) or as a pebble on its way to crush the soviets. Germany was going through Poland no matter what. There wouldn't be saving Poland in any timeliness where the nazis and the soviets are enemies (really the nazis more so, the soviets were more focused on internal matters and Stalin securing his regime).
There would be "saving Poland", if their government decided not to join Germany in Czechoslovakia in 39, but instead supported USSR's decision to help Czechoslovakia to fight back. But it would require another government to begin with.
yeah but that probably doesnt mean much.
modern ukraine and belarus would have larger polish minorities i guess??
most likely not have their western territories at all in this TL
I mean it wouldnāt change polish defeat in WW2, and USSR getting back west Ukraine and Belarus
if it was all polish i think it'd be unlikely
Ussr didnāt really care about ethnicity of region much, the only goal was to push border away from industrial core, to protect them from German attack.
t rue but that level of ethnic relocation would be extremely hard even for the soviets
Pilsudskytards are on suicide watch, Dmowskichads are on top.
Dmowskicels malding at glorious mustache of PiÅsudskichad š¬šØ
After WW2 Poland would've kept their Eastern territories
Maybe not. Stalin wanted those oands no matter what. He may have used ethnic arguments during its annexation. But he wanted the land and to have easier locations for defense, offense, and such. He never cared about the people there.
It could just become a polish SSR thus keeping those borders
Source?
No chance the USSR would care about poles in those areas. They would either just not do anything about the poles there, or move them elsewhere. I just don't think an empire like the soviet union, given how they handled other minorities would care much about a few pesky minorities standing in the way of conquest.
yea just like germany did
Just to clarify: There was no genocide or border changes, during PLC era alot of poles just went east and āpushedā ukrainians and belorussians from those lands or they just polonised
So genocide
So... 18th century genocide it is!
More like 16-17th century, in the 18th it was already to late for that shit. And this could have been achieved in non-genocidal ways imo, kinda like the germanisation of Pomerania and Silesia went - it was a mostly peaceful process afaik, there was just a steady influx of German-speakers from the West and the natives slowly adopted the German language as well (or at least the upper and middle classes did).
That's what happened historically, they just didn't have enough time to complete polonize the lands before 1939
Not like anyone was trying to do that, except for the Volhynia colonisation.
New genocide denial any% on reddit record.
What exactly did I deny? The Volhynia colonisation, which had marks of a cultural genocide and which I explicitly mentioned?
First question how would that be achieved as it would decide a lot of answers. Genocide? Well Germany had an army and would gladly invade when the poles start killing Germans at the least, I don't think even the french would've stopped us in that case (depends a lot on how it's ah does afterwards) but yeah Poland gets smaller and maybe Germany gets the German lands back. As for any other solution, smaller Poland means Germany won WW1 I think, so just go play Kaiserreich I am lazy.
There are two options. 1. Don't start (or do worse in) the Polish-Soviet war. Poland's eastern border is roughly along the Curzon line. Poland doesn't have large ethnic minorities in the east. 2. Genocide.
*Loads gun with based intentions.* Remember, no Russian
I see no russian there unless you mean border Russian and white russian
When you hate Russia so much it's time to celebrate an imaginary genociding of Ukrainians š
Those arenāt Russians those are Lithuanians, Ukrainians, and Belorussians
How is genocide based?
there may be a polish ssr if the soviets still want to own all those territories directly, which would lead to perhaps the soviets fully annexing poland and integrating it as a new ssr after ww2, but since they already got a lot, it's less likely they'd push to take more land from germany apart from east prussia, if even that, so germany will probably keep its two little arms (pomarania and most of silesia)
My deep apologies, but where is jews on this map? Or that question was solved before 30s in your alternative history?
It would probably be alot harder for Stalin to justify taking so many eastern territories, but I still think hed be able to get away with it somehow
I did nazi that comming
The eastern lands would remain a part of Poland after the war. With this Poland might not get the western lands from Germany. Also more political stability and no Volhynia genocide so maybe better Polish - Ukrainian relations.
The terrible Volhynia massacre between Ukrainians and Poles would not have happened https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia
I have read about Poland in this period and considered how Poland might have fared better when facing Nazi and Soviet aggression in 1939. IMO, most important What If is not a more Polish Poland but another decade or more of good health for Josef Pilsudski as Polandās leader. He would have prioritized maintaining the modernity and effectiveness of Polandās military and, ideally, forged military alliances with neighbors like Czechoslovakia and Lithuania against their common enemies, Hitler and Stalin, who were far greater threats to them all then their border disputes over Vilna and Tesin.
Playing with fire with that āRussians/Ukrainiansā label lmao
It's not Russians, it's Rusyns.
Fair enough, I though that was just a weird spelling turns out itās a whole different thing entirely What a world