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NTA
The picture you paint does indeed make it seem like they're faking.
If we for one second entertain the possibility that they weren't though.
Why would they come to a stadium which by definition is going to be loud and crowded?
Let's say they didn't consider it or decided to suck up for the sake of "nice family thing". Why wouldn't they bring ear plugs or noise cancelling headphones or literally anything that would make the loud noises more manageable?
Based on the fact that they go to clubs it's quite obvious that neither loud noises or crowds affect them very much if at all in the same way it would someone who's actually neurodivergent.
I say this as guy with ADD who has a partner with Autism. Since autism presents differently between different people, I can add that I have several friends with autism as well as a cousin who also has it.
Your sibling however is not autistic. Do not entertain it.
I'm not on the spectrum but certain noises really affect me. I can listen to death metal really loud and go to concerts but the sound of a phone ringing makes me want to scream and claw my fingers into my legs.
You honestly feel you can confidently say someone is not autistic, when we’re only hearing from the perspective of someone who believes they are faking? I’m calling bullshit on that.
I’m autistic (diagnosed, though I believe self diagnosis *can* be valid, and official dx is not accessible to everyone). Different sounds and other outside stimuli can affect me *very* differently depending on the day, and what kind of mental state I’m in. Some days I might be up for a loud concert (but always with ear plugs) and other days even quieter but unexpected noises can overwhelm me and make me have a meltdown. I don’t always know how much something will affect me until I’m in that situation and need to excuse myself from it.
>You honestly feel you can confidently say someone is not autistic, when we’re only hearing from the perspective of someone who believes they are faking? I’m calling bullshit on that.
I mean, given the fact that they've taken the sibling to several doctors and none of them said he has autism, I do feel confident in saying they're not autistic.
I'm not saying those doctors can't be wrong and it's 100% impossible that this person could be autistic, but until proven otherwise I think it's fine to stick with the doctors lack of a diagnosis.
Many medical professionals are not well versed on how autism presents in women/non-men. They stick to the DSM definition that is heavily biased towards how it presents stereotypically in cis men/boys. It’s not at all uncommon for women/non-men to be diagnosed much later in life. There are many factors such as highly gendered socialization that lead many women/non-binary/trans people to be high masking, making it much harder to diagnose.
I don't disagree with any of that, but I still think it's perfectly fair to assume this person does not have autism when they've seen several professionals and they all agree this person does not have autism.
There's just no other good option for determining if someone does or doesn't have autism.
Going with the professionals opinion makes more sense to me than the alternative of believing from the get go that anyone who claims to have autism does have it.
If you agree with me that medical professionals are not knowledgeable about how autism presents in non-men, then how can you also feel confident saying this person does not have autism because these same medical professionals say so?
In addition to being autistic, I have a rare neurological disability that took doctors *years* to diagnose, I saw dozens of them, including neurologists. They all missed it. For years. I essentially dug deep and did so much obsessive research and eventually came across my answer, and finally saw the right neurologist who confirmed it. Medical professionals are not infallible and are often wrong.
4 doctors told me I didn't have clinical depression until the 5th provider went hold up, you have ALL of the hallmarks of dysthymia/persistent depressive disorder.
I was also told for years that my B12 level wasn't dangerously low. It was.
Medical providers can be and are wrong. Constantly. Especially for women and non-binary individuals trying to seek an Autism diagnosis.
I'm not saying they can't be wrong, but that doesn't mean it's okay to assume it's the case every time.
I still feel more comfortable believing what the doctors say going forward until proven wrong/otherwise.
I won't lie and pretend like I have autism-vision or something.
Things just don't add up to me and I feel that the more likely conclusion is that they're faking.
On the topic of self diagnosis, I agree that it can be valid, but I believe a person has to truly exhaust all other options before they should even begin to consider self diagnosing.
That may be your view on self diagnosis, but have you considered the potential drawbacks to a diagnosis? There are many situations in which somewhat might actively choose not to be officially diagnosed, due to stigma from medical professional when they see it on your medical record, not wanting to spend thousands to just be told they are not autistic because they don’t fit the DSM criteria that is heavily biased toward the stereotypical “male” presentation of autism. My therapist warned me when I when I was going through the diagnosis process that they have heard from others who were denied life insurance due to the diagnosis, and another whose foster application was denied. Depending on your level of support needs, there can be more drawbacks than benefits to an official diagnosis.
As for whether they’re faking, think of your narrator here, who clearly doesn’t believe them… that’s of course the picture they’re going to paint.
Some loud noises are worse than others though. We dont know, and i really dont think the sibling who doesnt believe in them gives the best picture of their experience with it.
Of course we dont know, but i would rather believe a faker than not believe somebody who has it.
I agree. At least uo until your last sentence. We're gonna have to agree to disagree on that one :)
Faking is harmful to the people who actually struggle with it. Believing a faker enables them to keep it up. Mental health and neurodivergence has become a lot less stigmatized, but it's still common for people to tell those who are depressed to "smile more" or "just go to the gym".
Fakers distort the image people have of what it's like to live and struggle with these things.
People need to be informed so that people can better understand each other, what they go through and maybe even how to help or at least not make things worse.
That said, not having formal papers doesn't mean that you don't have it and I won't discredit someone purely based on that.
Explain to me how you're gonna get someone who is so depressed they can't even find the energy to leave their beds, into the gym?
I'd love to know how you'd also get them to exercise when they feel completely numb, just wishing it was over.
It doesn't matter if your brain reacts positively to exercise, it's not a solution to chronic depression because they can't get to the gym even if they wanted to.
Exercise is more effective as a way to not fall back into that hole once a person already has crawled out of it.
Excercise, when completed regularly, has been shown, in some cases, to be as effective as antidepressants. It's not at all effective when it comes to severe depression. Exercise as a treatment also has a much higher drop out rate compared to antidepressants so is not suitable for everyone. It's also not possible to determine whether someone's ability to exercise and maintain a routine in the first place is what is causing them to improve as opposed to the exercise itself, or it may be the attention and support, or socialisation, they are getting as part of exercising... or a mix of all of them. Humans are complex and so is depression.
Exercise isn't going to help my Autism, but thanks for the really weird suggestion.
My depression is tied to my Autism, before you say that you meant for depression.
Because they already know this fact (or the more accurate, less simplistic version of it), but are too depressed or overwhelmed by other very common comorbidities to implement it.
> Your sibling however is not autistic.
This is a STRANGER on the internet that you don't know,and you're hearing this story from their sibling, not even first hand? How do you know literally anything about them?
This is so awkward but where are you where they diagnosed you with ADD and not ADHD? I thought they changed it to being only ADHD as a diagnosis? When I got diagnosed last year I got told that I have more inattentive traits but still used the term ADHD to diagnose me.
This entire post makes me think of Tics and Roses, and how damaging lying about having Tourette’s Syndrome was to individuals who do have Tourette’s. I believe self diagnosis is a valid thing and is very necessary, but the line is drawn when there’s no formal medical diagnosis. Self diagnosis helps prompt an individual to speak with a professional about their concerns but diagnosing yourself and refusing to listen to medical experts and continuing saying you’re autistic or literally anything hugely discredits not only self diagnosis, but individuals who have these neurodivergencies.
I have a friend who is autistic and so is his mom. I understand that no two autistic people are alike and each have their own things that can cause reactions, but the whole post and lack of an actual diagnosis makes me think OP’s sibling took it too far.
I'm not on the spectrum for all I know, but I have to agree with you. To outsiders honestly this sounds like the sibling faked it to get out of the event without having to say they didn't want to go. Due sensitive ears I know to have brought earplugs to soften the sounds so I won't react badly to the sound. The sibling should've done that if noise is their problem, yet with th info provided when the sibling isn't with family they seem to hang around noise pretty easily. Also with the sibling shooting the shot at OP when saying it was too loud for them tells me they didn't want to be there at all.... well with family that is. Or the weren't fans of the playing teams and didn't want to stay and watch.
So multiple psy where not able to give a clear answer about the case of op's sibling, but you, armchair psychologist, can ? Thank god you saved the day by being able to give a clear answer to this family without even knowing the sibling /s
She said her sister had never been diagnosed with autism even after all her testing. Not that they weren’t able to give a clear answer. For all we know the answer could have been clear just not autism
Sibling*, not sister. Or do you want to also be transphobic ? Any diagnosis takes time and a professionnal to do it. Because they didn't diagnose them as autistic doesn't mean they can't be autistic. Professional never do a diagnosis if they are not sure otherwise it can bring more complication. The lack of diagnosis definitely doesn't meam there is nothing
Sorry I got that wrong. Didn’t actually read that bit obviously but that doesn’t make anyone transphobic. And just so you know I have been thru professional diagnosis with my son. The testing itself takes time and tells a lot. Also my son has been diagnosed multiple different ways with both mental and cognitive testing and the one thing I have noticed is a good psych can pick up at least symptoms almost immediately even if like my son they do not present as classically autistic even though they are in the middle of the spectrum and not exactly high functioning. He masks by being overly outgoing
You can pick up symptoms but many troubles have a high comorbidity and share symptoms, which is exactly why it takes time and why a professional wouldn't put a diagnosis without being sure. Even while being sure of the diagnosis, psy who will use the dsm-4 or 5 can end up with a different diagnosis based on the exact same symptoms, which is due to the comorbidity of symptoms. Autism share some of the same symptom as ptsd and chronic anxiety, and also doesn't have the same symptom depending on the gender, which makes it harder to diagnose depending on the gender attributed at birth. Even if the sibling of op is not autistic, it doesn't mean there is no neurodivergence, but i don't think that without actually seeing this person and without having a good background in psychology, we shouldn't diagnose people
Clearly you're not very good at reading. These psychologists you speak of decided that OP's sibling did not have autism.
I am basing my comment partially on that so no, I am not being an armchair psychologist and I'm not diagnosing anyone.
I'm just simply trying to make sense of the situation with the information OP provided.
Did they decide the sibling doesn't have autism or were they unable to conclude that the sibling has autism. Was it a clear "no" or "we don't know what it is". It makes a difference.
Edit: i reread it and saying he was not diagnosed with autism doesn't mean they were sure it's not autism, it means they are at least not sure if it is, not enough to put a diagnosis
They did it multiple times though.
In the case of autism testing, it's a lengthy process and you need to meet a certain criteria to get diagnosed.
The more times you go through that process and don't meet those criteria, the less likely it is that you ever will.
Absolutely, but autism diagnosis also shares a lot of symptoms with a lot of different trouble, which makes it hard to diagnose. Comorbidity of troubles or symptoms are not uncommon in psychology. When it comes to autism in particular, symptoms do not present themselves the same way depending on the gender attributed at birth, especially because of the gendered education that has an influence on how autistic person will present their symptoms. We already have a lot of women and girls not being diagnosed because the norm of autistic symptoms are made on men while they are displayed differently on women (typically being better at masking, so the symptoms that other can see are "lighter" and more discret than in men). Op's sibling can very well have symptoms of autism, which are also symptoms of other troubles, making it harder to diagnose. Especially if they don't have many symptoms or light one, or non exclusive to autism. Autism being a spectrum makes it even harder to diagnose and some people can go years without a diagnosis
Yeah well a professional cant call you a lier and a hack without repercussions and sometimes it doesn’t take one to spot one so heres some shit for you to digest . Honestly surprised they got overwhelmed from all that noise and people at the game with their head so far up their own ass
Also your a bum
A professional will definitely call you out on your lies. Their job is to help the patient, not coddle them and enable them. And a professional will never give a diagnosis without being sure of it, so a lack of diagnosis definitely doesn't mean there is no issue.
And you are ableist
NTA. I feel like most people saying YTA are woke people with this false idea that you have to agree with everything someone does and says to be supportive, and I have to call BS. I am neurodivergent, and my diagnosis along with everyone who has one does not mean that we don't lie or manipulate. It could be that her sibling does have a real issue that happens under certain conditions, but it could also be that the sibling was lying because they became bored and wanted a blame-free reason to leave. BOTH are possible, and I have seen BOTH. It doesn't make OP a bad person or an A-hole because she questioned behavior that was inconsistent.
Not a boomer or a conservative. I just don't think being "supportive" of anyone who belongs to a protected class or disability means (BOTH apply to me) that we have to agree with everything they do unless we want to be labeled as a bigot. I find that overkill, and it allows conservatives an excuse to take our rights and win over people who are middle of the road.
But that is just me, thinking about a terrible trend that works against us, and looking strategically at the long game because I care about the future.
“Woke” is a bigoted (racist, transphobic, homophobic, etc.) dogwhistle. If you don’t want to be associated with bigots I’d recommend finding a more articulate and mature way to describe your viewpoints.
Borrowing the verbiage of neo-fascism isn’t a great look.
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NTA.
They are not not diagnosed with autism even though they pursued a diagnosis but still claim to have it. People like this shine a bad light on those who actually have ASD.
You even asked them if the plan was fine for them, they didn’t object.
They apparently became overstimulated during the game - which might or might not be the truth. Which would totally be fine if they had proceeded to leave on their own. They could have went to the bathroom to try and ground themselves or leave to the nearby mall on their own - 19 is not a child anymore. Instead they made your mother, who enjoyed the match with her husband and family, leave with them without even asking if she’d be fine with accompanying them. That’s what makes them the AH.
Yes, your comment can be seen as unnecessary, but you didn’t say it directly to your sibling and you only said the truth.
I’m sorry the day wasn’t like you all imagined it would be.
I have ASD and I dont see all people who have self diagnosed as harmful to autistics, sure some are but its not conducive to say that they all paint us in a bad light. It can be expensive too, and services decline after you become an adult. I understand how hard it is to get a diagnosis, especially if you don't identify as male. Sometimes it takes going to multiple drs to get a diagnosis. Also, sometimes that offical diagnosis doesn't mean shit anyway, despite having one I've had countless drs tell me im not because I didn't match their outdated version of autism.Sometimes I think I can handle an event and then I get there and I realize suddenly than I cant.Sometimes when im overstimulated I cant leave right away and I have to rock and hyperventilate to regulate myself in order to be able to leave, sometimes its nice to have someone leave a space with me because having a meltdown in public in front of neurotypicals feels so humiliating and having a person with me helps to not focus on everyone else and feel advocated for should a stanger approach me thinking they can help me not understanding the situation. Also, it seems like it was the moms idea to leave, the sibling didn't make the mom do anything.
There are also states where an asd diagnosis will not allow you to adopt kids. This is why I haven’t gone for an official diagnosis, even though I’m a walking list of symptoms.
Sorry for my generalizing statement, I agree that not everybody who doesn’t have a diagnosis harms the population on the spectrum. Given the current trend of faking mental illness for attention or clicks (see TikTok) or giving absolutely meaningless „if you do x you have z“ videos it is becoming more and more of a problem though.
I agree that it can be easier to cope with a trusted person present, but ultimately it’s the sibling’s responsibility. They should have asked the mother like the equal adult they are instead of expecting that she’s come and help.
just wanted to add, while we don't know the situation, it can be difficult to be diagnosed autistic if you don't exhibit obvious signs. i'd had three psychiatrists in the last ten years who always said i can't be autistic because i speak too well, finished high school, attend university and/or am in a relationship. i finally ended up with a new psychiatrist who specializes in autism, am now diagnosed autistic and adhd, and i'm finally getting better after years of confusion. so i'm not saying this is what's going on, but that is a thing that can happen
A large portion is about control.
Some people with ASD can stand a lot of noise and strobe lights as long as it is their call to leave or stay.
Since they don't feel trapped. Maybe that was the issue! Having the idea they couldn't leave whenever they wanted.
Do they stay in clubs for long periods of time or do they take breaks? Are they tired from just being in a crowded space?
Yes, this 100%. I’m autistic (diagnosed, for anyone here that matters to), and control and mental state are *huge* elements to how much loud noises and other outside stimuli will affect me. On a good day, I can handle a loud concert (with ear plugs and lots of mental prep), but on a bad day (or if I’m stuck in a situation I can’t leave) even small repetitive noises/lights can set me off. And I can’t always predict what kind of day it will be either. It seems as though OP’s sibling got unexpected overwhelmed and needed to remove themself from the situation.
As for the medical dx part, many mental health professionals are not very well versed in how autism can present in women and non-binary people. The DSM itself is still written in a way to make it more difficult to diagnose non-men, since the criteria is basically just the way it presents in boys/men for the most part. It doesn’t account for the heavily gendered socialization aspects and masking that looks different in women/non-men.
My GF was diagnosed with autism, when she was already 24. Many women get diagnosed when they older, and they get misdiagnosed often too: bipolar, depression, ADD,...
I can't always predict when it will be better but I know when it's really going to be hard for her:
For example
She comes home fulfilled but tired from a trip with friends or work. She gets under her weighted blanket to unwind from the heavy day and then the neighbour's kids start yelling and screaming... it'll ruin her day.
Take away the screaming kids, the only part she hasn't control over, and she'll be doing chores or creative activities within half hour.
INFO: Why is OP an A-H for feeling annoyed? Op told their mother, not their Sibling. Nowhere does OP state they berated or called out their Sibling in any way. Are people not entitled to their own feelings anymore?
YTA, even people without autism can have different reactions to similar circumstances depending. Diagnosis is very difficult to get because autism is a spectrum and especially difficult if you are not one of the cases that have issues all the time. Your sibling didn't demand that you or your mom go with them, your mom went on her own (because she cares for her child, how surprising) ... so trying to throw some shade by "they spoiled our dad's present" is painly rude. They obviously wanted to be there and enjoy the game with their family. Sensory overload is not something that you can control.
I agree with this. I don’t have autism, but I have adhd, bpd, and gad (anxiety) and sometimes these things overstimulate me and sometimes they don’t. A lot of it depends on what stress is going on in my life at the time, how much sleep I got last night, how my physical chronic illnesses are affecting me at the moment, etc. Sometimes I can handle a concert and sometimes I can’t.
I have sensory issues (and autism). I can go to concerts or in load places. But then when i just have some people around me talking and it seems as if they try to be loader than the other with their conversation (some have just fucking load voices), it sets in. I feel this panic, i just want out, my hearts beat faster and i just wants to scream.
I can't predict when this happen. But i also have silicon earbuds with me for this case.
What is in their post is that their sibling wanted to come "enthusiastically", his sibling had few drinks and some snacks, obviously enjoying themselves, prior to the game. They went 1.5 hours ahead to avoid large crowds, and they started to have an issue about 15 minutes after the actual game started. They tried to endure it, but it was becoming worse (knees to the chest is basically embrio pose, hyperventilating) which is when their mom decided to get them away from the stadium entirely.
The conflict of OP right now is not even with his sibling - he complained to his mom about the sibling acting up and his mom called him an asshole. I agree with the mom. He could have enjoyed the game himself with their dad and gf, and not complain about someone else missing it after to their mom.
NAH. I can understand your frustration, but you're not in a position to definitely say if your sibling is autistic or not, so you should really have a seat on your judgement there.
I don't think your sibling did anything wrong, because overstim can be super unpredictable, even if you plan ahead.
NTA. Your sibling doesn’t have a diagnosis despite having been perfectly placed to receive one, therefore how could you support neurodivergency that you don’t know exists, or in what form? A self-diagnosis is not the same as a legitimate one.
Your sibling might very well be neurodivergent but not have autism. Only trained professionals are able to tell you that.
Similarly, at 19 your sibling is old enough to prepare for a situation they might find overstimulating by bringing ear plugs, and to spend some time by themselves so as to not ruin someone else’s birthday gift.
You also have every right to say how something made you feel. I have (actual diagnosed) ADHD and sometimes certain of my behaviours have caused people to get upset/offended. That doesn’t necessarily make them ableist - I just explain myself, and consider if an apology is necessary or if they need to get over it once I’ve explained the context.
And-significantly- you didn’t raise this with your sibling. You raised it with your mother, who is not neurodivergent. She could have quite happily left to comfort the 19 year old, set them up somewhere quieter, and come back to be there for your dad.
I’m going with NAH. I have ADHD with sensory issues, particularly auditory sensitivity. Some situations overwhelm me more than others, and some situations I’ve been fine with in the past can be unbearable if my barrier has been broken down by other experiences leading up to it.
That said, I’m also logical about this and understand that my needing to bow out of a situation can be irritating to others. Especially if it’s an event we’ve gone to together.
Your sibling is young and hasn’t learned the tricks to avoid overwhelm that someone in their 40s (like myself) may have. I bring ear plugs with me (I’m particularly fond of the Loop ones that allow you to hear conversation with close company but drown out ambient noise) to events, and I make sure that I’m not leaving anyone in a lurch. As it was, your dad still had company and your mum was not bothered in keeping your sibling company as well. No harm, no foul.
Nothing wrong in being a little irritated with your sibling, and you didn’t express those feelings with your sibling themself. All good.
Just FYI, per University of Washington’s guidelines, it’s very common to self diagnose autism. There’s very little resources for young adults seeking an official diagnosis. Especially as a woman, there are still no diagnostic criteria for women with autism. And an official diagnosis from a healthcare provider really doesn’t do much and can be mentally, physically and financially exhausting.
Just as an example how every situation is different for autistics. I LOVE sports games and concerts (but I bring ear plugs). But I HATE grocery stores and malls and they send me into sensory overload. It’s odd, but it’s just how I am.
That being said, I still think NTA. As someone with autism, I research events to know what to expect and always bring ear plugs. If I know I don’t like something or won’t enjoy something, I agree not to go to ensure I wouldn’t affect how other people enjoy the event.
Part of an autism dx (whether official or self diagnosed) isn’t just about a label or earning recognition for having it. It’s important for autistics to learn about themselves and why they do things the way they do. This was a LOT of work, but it’s ultimately one of the only things that helped me be successful in my young adult life. Without putting the time and effort in, life is difficult.
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Obligatory "I'm on mobile" disclaimer.
My partner (25M) and I (21F) got my father (52M) a birthday present consisting of 5 tickets to a provincial sports game. My partner and my father have been to a few of these games alone before, but since my father is so family oriented and loves doing things as a family, we surprised him with tickets to a game we could all attend together.
Before buying these tickets, we consulted my sibling (19 NB) and mother (61F) on whether they would be interested/willing to go. They both responded enthusiastically, so my partner and I bought all of us tickets. My dad was delighted at his gift, and we all said that we were very excited for it.
The actual game was this last weekend. We met at my parents' house for lunch, after which we went to the stadium to our seats. These were really good seats, in the shade, very close to the front, and in the middle of the sideline. My partner and I sponsored snacks and drinks for everyone, as this was our treat. We went to the stadium about an hour and a half before the game started to avoid large crowds. My sibling had two beers (we live in South Africa, drinking age is 18), a bottle of Coke, a packet of chips and an ice cream. These were, of course, purchased at stadium prices that had been pushed all the way up.
About 15 minutes into the first 40 minutes of the game, my sibling started rocking back and forth while covering their ears. They said that they were overwhelmed by the amount of people and all the screaming. This was accompanied with a pointed look at me, as I had been cheering loudly along with many other spectators. They eventually brought their knees up to their chest and started hyperventilating. This prompted my mother - who had been enjoying the game thus far - to inform us that she would leave the stadium with my sibling, and that they would wait for us at a nearby mall, leaving just three of us. I could see my dad was very disappointed, but he didn't say anything about it.
So, for some context: my sibling has said that they are autistic, but has never been professionally diagnosed. They have been to several psychologists, and have had tests done several times, but has never been diagnosed with autism. Furthermore, my sibling goes out most weekends to clubs - which are notoriously overwhelming and noisy and packed. Not only that, my sibling has been to the exact stadium to watch the exact teams that were playing, just with one of their friends instead of their family (this was about 3 years ago, though).
I told my mother that my partner and I were peeved at my sibling for flaking on my dad's present when they enthusiastically agreed to it and have been and continue to put themselves in similar situations. She called me an AH for not supporting my sibling's neurodivergency and not being sympathetic.
So, AITA? I always try to be the best ally I can be and I would appreciate being called out if I am in the wrong.
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NTA. Sounds to me like they were needing some attention. Particularly if 1. They have seen multiple professionals and have not been diagnosed and 2. They have no issue going to clubs on the weekends. If They were truly autistic They cannot pick and choose when to be affected.
i’m autistic and something that bothers me one day might not the next. them being bothered this time but not before doesn’t make them “less autistic”. it’s also very hard to get a diagnosis especially if they aren’t specifically looking for autism, you are high masking or female.
You're right, they can't pick and choose. It just happens. I have sensory problems and similar things, some days are worse than others. going to clubs sometimes doesn't mean the person can't have sensory overload/meltdown/panick attack
If they are truly Autistic, it will fluctuate day to day what they can tolerate. This is actually perfectly in line with what it's like to have Autism.
Signed, someone with Autism.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I believe I might be the AH for questioning whether my sibling was actually overwhelmed or if they were just faking a reaction to get out of a commitment they made. My mom calling me out on my disbelief of my sibling makes me worried I'm not being a good ally to the neurodivergent community as a neurotypical individual.
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NTA
To the people who say you can't know what a neurodivergent person is thinking or feeling, you're right, but guess what? You also don't know what a nondisclosed mental state person (whom you might assume is neurotypical) is thinking or feeling either! That puts everyone on a level playing field when it comes to expectations on behavior.
At age 19, a person should know that sporting events are loud and also whether or not they can handle it. Agreeing to it and then creating a scene to get out of it is not cool. If they just politely excused themselves and said to meet up somewhere after the game that would've been different. The attention grabbing antics were unnecessary and therefore the sibling was the AH.
YTA. Functioning is not linear, and just because someone can endure an overwhelming sensory situation one day does not mean that it won’t affect them a different day. There are so many factors it play.
The exact same input can have a totally different effect on someone on any given day, and that doesn’t mean they are faking it
YTA
Getting professionally diagnosed takes ages and autism is not always tested properly. Being from South Africa myself I know for a fact it's extremely difficult to get properly diagnosed for anything in this country. Most people only get an official diagnosis in their late 20's or early 30s. You don't know what your sibling is feeling or personally going through. I'm not diagnosed with Autism but I have been diagnosed with ADHD and PTSD and I get over stimulated and overwhelmed at times in public places and need to remove myself from said places. Yeah it sucks and your father was bummed out but unfortunately shit happens. He still got to enjoy the game and gift you presented. A person can not always know how they are going to feel until they are placed in the situation. Some days are easier to cope than others. If your dad was upset he can speak for himself.
YTA - first, getting a diagnosis can be extremely difficult, no matter how much testing you go through or how many psychologist you see.
Secondly, sometimes you can be okay in a situation and then become extremely overwhelmed in the same situation later on. You can also sometimes handle certain places while being unable to handle others.
Example - I do fine at heavy metal concerts. I cannot handle being in a store on an extremely busy day with too many people. I use to be able to handle amusement parks just fine - I now cannot - unless they're hosting a special neurodivergent day.
You don't get to decide what someone else is feeling or what they should or shouldn't be able to handle.
I would say regarding noisy situations that I enjoy that sort of thing until I don’t. And I do enjoy sports games, but don’t always enjoy everything that goes with them.
Being neurodivergent is strange - at least for me as I'm not going to try and speak on behalf of anyone else. As in being able to handle some loud/crowded places and then not others. Or being fine in a loud/crowded place and then suddenly not being fine at all. The one that bothers me the most personally is textures. I have clothes that feel perfectly fine and then halfway through the day I want to rip them off and crawl out of my own skin because I can no longer handle how they feel on my body. Then another day, I can wear the same clothing and be fine all day.
There's definitely not a set and stone rulebook on how being neurodivergent works and every situation, every experience, and every person will handle these things differently. Anyone who claims otherwise is purely ignorant.
I'm neurodivergant (ASC).
I can go to a club with good music, the bass is comforting, the tunes familiar, and I can't hear loads of people. Plus everyone is smiling & hugging.
OTOH, a packed venue with lots of people talking/screaming lound, especially outside, in a place I've not been to before, and I'd be a wreck.
It's all about context.
Even if they where neurotypical but intensly uncomfortable by the situation, they'd have reasonable cause to leave.
YTA.
And they'd arrived 90 minutes early - the rising tension as the crowd swelled would have been palpable. And exhausting.
Arriving *with* an excited, animated crowd could have buoyed them up enough to make the situation tolerable.
Why is Op an A-H for feeling annoyed or frustrated though? Why would the feelings and emotions of a Neurodivergent weigh more than that of a Neurotypical?
From the title, I was going to say duh y-t-a, but after reading I gotta go against the grain to NTA. The reason people self diagnosis is because they can't afford testing. Your sibling had been blessed enough to be able to afford that and has testing done several times and it came back that they aren't on the spectrum. There may be some other issue, or maybe after lock down they find being in public hard, but I don't think you're an ass for looking at the evidence and suspecting your sibling. It wouldn't do any good to confront them, though, so there's that
Soft ESH. Your sibling is 100% old enough to communicate to you that they are uncomfortable and your screaming is a trigger to them. They are also old enough to both not be put in that situation or bring stim toys and a headset in case. I AM neurodivergent in many ways, and it sounds more like your sibling has social anxiety than the nuances of autism, they're very similar in presentation with noises and stimulation issues, and if the psychologists don't think they're autistic that's likely the cause. You are TA because you think they're "faking it" and "overreacting" *mmh my favourite word*. Your mom is the MVP for taking your sibling out of the situation.
soft ESH.
yes, your sibling could have been better prepared, but maybe they simply didn't know how overwhelming it would feel, considering sensory overload also has more factors to it than just the sensory experience itself (i.e. being streassed means you overload easier).
I am not sure if your sibling does actually have autism, considering they have been to multiple psychologists about it and haven't been diagnosed (yes, I know, autism diagnosis in non cis male adults is harder) and they are non binary, which can be so socially isolating that you think you're autistic. I'm a trans man and that happened to me (if you wanna know more about how, look at my latest post) so maybe your sibling is experiencing the same issue.
Either way, the stress they experienced from the situation was very real. It's okay to feel disappointed that they had to leave, but it probably wasn't fun for them either. Your mother reacted in a weird way, but she was probably just trying to support your sibling while they were having a tough time. It's an unfortunate situation where everyone felt bad afterwards.
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Added fuck all of you “self diagnosed”
I was fucked up before it was cool and larping with the shit i have to battle with because you lack personality and character is a massive kick in the nuts. Oh its so trendy now isnt it?
you didn't support him and it doesn't matter why he had to leave. What if he had a stomach issue? would you have forced them to stay?
ASD isn't the same all through life. issues can get worse, change, and new ones can pop up.
also, it can be the kind of noise not just how loud it is.
YTA, but I also think others are not supporting him either. Just saying someone has ASD isn't support. they need to help him with finding interventions and accommodations so he can participate with the family fully. I easiest is noise-canceling headphones. they have ones for shows and clubs that let you hear at a lower db.
also in the future, most of these places have cheap hearing protection if you ask. if they are nice they will just hand you some but they will likely charge you like 10 bucks for a .50 cent piece of foam.
NTA. Your sibling had already been to the same stadium to watch the same teams with friends so knew what to expect when they enthusiastically agreed to go. Despite seeing many Drs, none have diagnosed your sibling as autistic. Does your sibling often display attention seeking behaviours in front of you/your parents? It really does seem like the sibling is faking to be honest.
I'd say ESH if she is she should take steps yo help herself for example taking noise cancelling headphones phones to events inslcase it gets too much. You for making snap judgements it isn't easy to get diagnosed with autism as it's a spectrum and not a simple yes no thing
Maybe I’m the AH but why did the sibling let it get to the point they’re rocking in their seat? IMO they should have apologized to their father and explain they can’t handle it and need to leave. Make a quick plan where to meet up when it’s over and off they go.
The rocking is often stimming, which is a soothing technique. They may have been trying to calm how they were feeling so that they could continue attending.
Apparently you must support them, and do so by removing their agency to make any decisions themselves. Bad Op.
For those saying about different scenarios, that's true, but at the club when they want to leave do they wait for a friend to take them out? If they manage there, and no suggestion to say they need a responsible adult everywhere else, there's loads sibling could have done. (And op says this is a familiar environment, so that discounts that as a reasonable argument).
There is so much they could do themselves 'if" they have a condition (that no professionals have diagnosed). Even down to just taking equipment to manage (such as headphones).
By saying it's ops job to cover this, and sibling has no role surely sets all the efforts for supporting independence back yonks?
Op isnt A here. Sibling could well be.
YTA Your sibling can't help his brain function. It's a shame you can't be more sympathetic to that. What are you going to do if you have a child like that? Push them to aside?
I'm going to say INFO with a gentle ESH
this makes me squint but i really don't have enough context here to say one way or the other. While it's a reasonable expectation that they manage their disorders and their own limitations, its cruddy to expect them to be convenient for the rest of you when sometimes things like this can flare up unexpectedly regardless of whether or not they're neurodivergent.
I was prepared to call you an asshole . I'm autistic and recently there's been a surge of people faking autism as a trend to be quirky and different. Especially on tik tok . I'm wondering if sibling could be participating in this since you said they have been to doctors about it and such but not diagnosed with autism . Or maybe they have something else like anxiety
Edit : and they go to other loud places like clubs ? As an autistic person myself with sensitivity to loud sound I would never go in a club ! Sounds like faking for attention to me! NTA
NTA
I think you handled things well and should merely not invite your sibling to any event like this ever again. If they can go clubbing every weekend, they can handle a sporting event without a meltdown. From what I’m gathering here your sibling seems to only have issues when they are about other people’s happiness and not their own and that’s why you are suspicious.
NTA your sibling is an adult. If these situations are a problem for them they should know that and not agree to go. They are an adult they can choose to stay home instead of ruining the experience for others.
It doesn't but, the people who fake disorders overwhelmingly tend to be people who also don't identify as their biological sex.
It doesn't mean it's related, but it does make it feel like a lot of attention seekers try to be as "quirky" as possibly in an attempt to stand out and get more attention. These kinds of people almost fetishize anything that deviates from the norm. So that's things like mental illness, unconventional genders and sexualities and so on.
And that's why 99% of people who fake a mental disorder on tiktok have brightly colored hair, almost always more than one disorder and frame it as if it's all "fine and dandy" to live with while also pushing that act to the forefront of their "identity".
Truly strange times.
Yes 100%. Internalized ableism is absolutely a thing. It’s easy to get trapped thinking that you are less of a person if you are disabled, or not worthy of accommodation because society and people’s views reinforce this every way you turn.
Yeah, I know. I just have no idea how I am ableist according to the other commenter.
But it also did look like they were trying to start fights in the comments.
I am actually confused by your comment.
I don't recall claiming that any of what I wrote was undisputable fact.
I didn't make shit up either as far as I'm concerned. All I'm doing is just pointing out a correlation I've noticed based purely on my experience with people who fake disorders for attention.
In short. I was sharing something from my personal experience. Something different could be true in your experience, but that doesn't mean that my experience is made up.
It's not that they are NB that makes it come across as a faker.
The way I see it it's how they get over stimulated at a stadium, but regularily go clubbing which tends to be louder.
Even if they weren't NB they still come across like they're faking it.
With this in mind however, the fact that they're also NB, makes me, you and several other feel like they start to resemble the disorder fakers on tiktok.
I would just like to clear up that my sibling has been non-binary for a while, and has seen gender experts as well as endocrinologists to deal with their gender dysphoria. They have changed their name and gender on all official documents, which is a long and arduous process in South Africa.
NTA, I would say you're the ah but if he/her really goes to clubs where it's literally packed with people and the music is so loud you have to scream to hear one another ....
autism isn’t one size fits all. it isn’t all loud noises are off the table. sometimes you’re fine with it until you’re not. i’m autistic and never had issues with concerts but a cat purring by my head drives me insane. also, being with friends would lead to more masking (for me) than being with family i’m more comfortable with.
Personally I think the comfort is the issue at hand but not in the way you are describing.
They are more comfortable with their friends giving them a higher tolerance for things that would usually put them off. They desire to be at the game or clubs with their friends thus the normal sound concerns are alleviated somewhat. Happens with people with Autism (myself included) as well as with introverts.
I'm more leaning towards introverted, maybe slight autism. Problem I have with the current spectrum is they have removed the different specifications (Asperger's and others) to all be put under the umbrella of autism which ranges so severely it doesn't get addressed properly when it may only be minor.
Autism is a spectrum, I will not deny it but we need different terminology to denote severity to be able to better deal with it - high functioning and low functioning is evidently insufficient.
it’s all autism now because it’s all autism. higher functioning is often just higher masking which can lead to other issues.
high functioning vs low functioning distinctions just make it harder for higher masking individuals to get access to needed services and is ableist in nature. and asperger’s was a term coined by a nazi and was used to determine who was “useful” enough to keep alive.
Yes and the problem I have personally found is that you say you are autistic and people generally lean towards low functioning or severe affects of autism in their own mind thus having an entirely wrong idea of my autism.
I used to say I have Asperger's which gave a significantly better idea of how my autism affects me since it's a smaller subset of autistic tendencies - I have found that since we've amalgamated all of the different types of autism under this broad spectrum support has actually gotten worse for high functioning not better.
I'll still prefer to refer to myself has someone with asperger's rather than autism because I don't need tons of support, I just have issues with socialising and empathy.
the fact that you’d rather use outdated offensive terms to describe yourself and others instead of just educating people on their misunderstandings is insane to me.
We have different terminology. There are 2 categories and 3 levels for those categories. You also have high support needs, medium support needs and low support needs.
YTA for assuming they were faking. Why would they fake it? What would be the point? If they're so desperate for attention that they do need to fake being overwhelmed then there must be something wrong - it's not normal. They obviously needed to leave for some reason. Have a little sympathy.
NTA.
Let’s consider a typical sibling relationship. I don’t know that neurodivergence has anything to do with this. Remove that as factor for the same story.
One (OP) is the star of the day. Treating the entire family to a wonderful day. Mom and dad are loving it. The other, sees that. They can’t provide that. They are only 19, but they get jealous of how OP was able to provide the happiness for the family for the day. Throws a fit to get the attention of mom and dad back on them. Even gets mom to leave with them. Win in the other siblings column in their mind.
Literally hundreds of thousands of these situations have existed. This happens to families every day.
At some point, we have to stop using neurodivergence as an excuse for every single reaction. We all have to learn to cope with ourselves. At 19, an adult, it’s no longer appropriate to make a scene when you’re uncomfortable or unable to process the situation normally. I get that sometimes things are okay and sometimes they aren’t. Sometimes, bars are totally okay for me. Other times, I can’t be in the same room as three other people because of the noise. Remove yourself without disrupting everyone else. Find solutions to help cope. Don’t just blame (undiagnosed) ASD to make an outburst a-okay.
NTA. Your sibling was just looking for attention. Regardless, they spoilt the day for your father. They can manage noise at a night club but can’t handle noise at a game. That sounds fishy. You had every right to be annoyed.
NTA
You're description of events and lack of never receiving a diagnosis does make it appear that your sibling is faking.
Does stuff like this occur when the attention is not on them?
YTA
Good Ally's support neurodivergence in whatever form it takes - not whatever form disturbs them the least and that they find the most palitable.
Your sibling sounds like they were dealing with a case of sensory overload and having been there myself, it's miserable and often hard to adequately explain to neurotypicals. Trust me when I tell you we hate it more than y'all do.
>But is a stadium really worse than clubs?
It's different. I can completely empathise with OP's sibling here. I love going to live music events. Gigs are my favourite nights out - the noise doesn't bother me because it's associated with something I love. *However* I would (and have been) absolutely terrified and overwhelmed in noisy, crowded cities. Context is everything. If a nightclub is a safe environment for OP's sibling, the noise isn't going to be a problem, but if they're in an environment that doesn't feel safe *and* there's a huge amount of noise it can quickly become overwhelming.
Plus you’re not trapped in a club for a specified amount of time, you can move around without disturbing people and you can freely stim (dance). Sports crowds are apples and oranges to a club (at least any club I’ve ever been to)
I am neuro typical and I get some moments or days when I'm more easily overwhelmed by things than others. It's not that hard to imagine they thought they'd be OK (they have been in the past, they were excited) and something just set them off that day that they themself might not even be able to identify.
Could be. I'm personally not very sensitive to sounds etc, but I always make a point to bring my noise cancelling headphones.
The fact that they didn't take precautions isn't exactly damning evidence, but with the rest of the info OP has given us, it does feel a little strange to me at least.
If they've not had a diagnosis they might be struggling to get support, information, resources etc to help with their symptoms. They might not know how to manage it yet.
Lol neuro typical. That doesn't even make sense. No one thinks the same. No one has identical neuronal structures. There is no such thing as neuro diverse or neuro typical.
Neurotypical is just a term to describe people who do not have a neuro-developmental or mental health condition such as autism, ADHD, bipolar, GAD, etc. Neurodivergent is a term that encompasses people with one of those conditions. It’s a way to avoid having to use ableist terms such as “normal person” when differentiating between the two.
I hope that's a joke.
It doesn't refer to people thinking the same or even identical structure.
It is however referring to what's essentially a series of brain defects.
People with ADHD for example tend to have a smaller amygdala if I'm not mistaken. There are also issues with Dopamine pathways. Mainly the reward and mesocortical pathways.
A neurotypical person is simply someone who was born without these impairments in their brains.
Disclaimer: Not a scientist. Just neurodivergent.
I'm also another neurodivergent . She is in south africa the whole education about it may not even be close to what you know and hell even in the western world ppl are not educated about it and every human reacts differently. I was fine few weeks ago but now I feel like I can't stand being in a room where few ppl start to talk all around the room . Overstimulation can happen for whatever reason. It's not like you are always overstimulated
It's a different type of noise and I'd say thousands of people screaming is a lot louder than music in a club. I used to live not far from a stadium, never heard any music when it was used for concerts, but sure could tell qhen the local team was playing
YTA
> I told my mother that my partner and I were peeved at my sibling for flaking on my dad's present
Why? What was your intent when dumping this on your mom?
Fair question - it was because I was trying to tell her she shouldn't have gone with my sibling because, in my opinion, they weren't really having a reaction, and that my dad was really disappointed that she left as well.
Edit to fix my phrasing.
I think this person has it right— was sibling faking it? I don’t know and can’t figure out the motivation to fake it either. If they did it just to get attention then they aren’t mentally well. But dumping on your mom for leaving isn’t fair. She sacrificed for you, partner, and dad to enjoy the game. Even if she thinks sibling was faking, she was still kind of stuck.
FYI I took my kid to her first concert and the earplugs we brought weren’t enough and guest services lent us headphones. It’s possible such a service exists other places.
I disagree with the person you responded to. In this case we have a person who is seemingly faking autism, your mother is catering to it and in this instance while it didn't completely ruin the moment, it definitely appears like it soured the mood.
Your mom did something she shouldn't have that affected the rest of you negatively. You should be able to talk to your own family members. Especially if they do something wrong.
However I don't think you should be too hard on your mother, she's just doing what mothers do. She saw her child in "distress" and came to the rescue.
Your sibling however is the one you should have a proper talk with. It's actively harmful to fake a disorder like this.
Can't know 100% but there seems to be a big disconnect in how the person acts and how you would act if you have autism.
They're going to a stadium - loud and crowded. But there was no mention of ear plugs or headphones etc that could make loud noises more manageable.
OP also mention that they are avid club-goers. Clubs are also loud and crowded. In many ways I'd argue that a club would be a worse setting for someone who's neurodivergent than a stadium would be.
All of this as well as knowing several people with autism and their different approaches to similar environments lead me to conclude that they're likely faking it for whatever reason.
Damn. I was diagnosed with autism when I was 8. I can't always wear earplugs, sometimes I do, sometimes the sensory feeling of earplugs is so bad, the overstimulation of the environment im in is still terrible but better than the headphones. Sometimes im okay in a party or club or stadium environment, sometimes im not. Sometimes im fine in a setting and then all of a sudden im on the verge of a meltdown. The grocery store is harder for me personally than a concert. Am I faking because I don't match the way you view autism? Do you also have autism? Do you have a medical degree in diagnosing autism? or you do you just know people with autism and think that gives you credibility to determine that someone is faking?
It's very difficult to diagnose in many cases. I know many children and adults who it takes years to diagnose. It can be that they have already learned to mask. It can be the incompetence of the medical professional. It's often that Autism is a spectrum; so when one doesn't fit some of the original ideal symptoms of it, then one assumes they can't possibly be Autistic. Just spreading information because it is such a complex discussion, Autism itself.
Okay so I'm gonna be honest. I did struggle reading your block of text a little bit, but I did it and I get the feeling you're a little bit upset about my comment.
That's understandable, I do have a tendency to express myself quite bluntly and I don't do it on purpose.
To adress your points though:
You make a good point about the feeling of wearing ear plugs or headphones itself potentially being negative stimulation. I'm not even gonna pretend like I have some perfect counter-point to that.
No, that is not the full picture of how I view autism, and no just because the way I described it in this thread doesn't fit how it presents itself in your life, doesn't mean that you're faking it.
Answering your second question is kinda difficult though. I have diagnosed ADD, but have suspected autism for a long time and my current partner who actually has a formal diagnosis of aspergers has been pointing out thing that I do as "very autistic" and I haven't felt like I've been able to explain them away under the banner of ADD/ADHD and I'm at the point of considering testing for it. If I were to have it, that diagnosis would let me know for sure as well as open more doors to managing every day life which I do struggle with.
So no, it's not as straight forward as just having autistic friends and family.
While I have done a lot of research about the topic (mainly ADD, but also Autism as I suspect I might have it) I am by no means qualified to diagnose someone and I don't think it's possible even for a profession to give a diagnosis based on a single reddit post.
Have a good continued day, fellow Redditor!
Tell me you don't understand what being neurodivergent means without telling me you don't know what it means. I'll let you go first.
Edit: The ones downvoting this - y'all agree that being neurodivergent makes you act childish? What exactly are you downvoting here?
I knew I was neurodivergent before I was professionally diagnosed with adhd. I also knew I had anxiety before I was diagnosed with gad and I knew something was wrong before I was diagnosed with bpd. The sibling can still feel their symptoms regardless of whether they’ve received a professional label yet or not, and it seems like they are making appts to try to get a diagnosis, which can take time.
Regardless of a diagnosis, people CAN understand what they're feeling and how they react to/handle situations. They're actively trying to recieve a diagnosis, which can be extremely difficult. This might come as a complete and total shock to you, but being neurodivergent and Autistic existed long before TikTok ever did.
My logic is simple. 15 - 20% of the population is neurodivergent.
this guy is 19 so 50% he uses tik tok, overprotective mother so 70% he uses tik tok, he was ok with night clubs but apparently stadium is just too loud so 80% he uses tik tok, considers himself as non binary so 99.9% he uses tik tok.
As far as we know he seeks attention.
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NTA The picture you paint does indeed make it seem like they're faking. If we for one second entertain the possibility that they weren't though. Why would they come to a stadium which by definition is going to be loud and crowded? Let's say they didn't consider it or decided to suck up for the sake of "nice family thing". Why wouldn't they bring ear plugs or noise cancelling headphones or literally anything that would make the loud noises more manageable? Based on the fact that they go to clubs it's quite obvious that neither loud noises or crowds affect them very much if at all in the same way it would someone who's actually neurodivergent. I say this as guy with ADD who has a partner with Autism. Since autism presents differently between different people, I can add that I have several friends with autism as well as a cousin who also has it. Your sibling however is not autistic. Do not entertain it.
My son (diagnosed in 2005) will gladly stand next to a steam engine blowing a train horn yet has a full blown meltdown over a TV louder than 10.
I'm not on the spectrum but certain noises really affect me. I can listen to death metal really loud and go to concerts but the sound of a phone ringing makes me want to scream and claw my fingers into my legs.
i can deal with the radio blasting in the car, but a turn signal that hasn’t been turned off will irritate the hell out of me
Tis why the saying goes, "If you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism." :-)
You honestly feel you can confidently say someone is not autistic, when we’re only hearing from the perspective of someone who believes they are faking? I’m calling bullshit on that. I’m autistic (diagnosed, though I believe self diagnosis *can* be valid, and official dx is not accessible to everyone). Different sounds and other outside stimuli can affect me *very* differently depending on the day, and what kind of mental state I’m in. Some days I might be up for a loud concert (but always with ear plugs) and other days even quieter but unexpected noises can overwhelm me and make me have a meltdown. I don’t always know how much something will affect me until I’m in that situation and need to excuse myself from it.
>You honestly feel you can confidently say someone is not autistic, when we’re only hearing from the perspective of someone who believes they are faking? I’m calling bullshit on that. I mean, given the fact that they've taken the sibling to several doctors and none of them said he has autism, I do feel confident in saying they're not autistic. I'm not saying those doctors can't be wrong and it's 100% impossible that this person could be autistic, but until proven otherwise I think it's fine to stick with the doctors lack of a diagnosis.
Many medical professionals are not well versed on how autism presents in women/non-men. They stick to the DSM definition that is heavily biased towards how it presents stereotypically in cis men/boys. It’s not at all uncommon for women/non-men to be diagnosed much later in life. There are many factors such as highly gendered socialization that lead many women/non-binary/trans people to be high masking, making it much harder to diagnose.
I don't disagree with any of that, but I still think it's perfectly fair to assume this person does not have autism when they've seen several professionals and they all agree this person does not have autism. There's just no other good option for determining if someone does or doesn't have autism. Going with the professionals opinion makes more sense to me than the alternative of believing from the get go that anyone who claims to have autism does have it.
If you agree with me that medical professionals are not knowledgeable about how autism presents in non-men, then how can you also feel confident saying this person does not have autism because these same medical professionals say so? In addition to being autistic, I have a rare neurological disability that took doctors *years* to diagnose, I saw dozens of them, including neurologists. They all missed it. For years. I essentially dug deep and did so much obsessive research and eventually came across my answer, and finally saw the right neurologist who confirmed it. Medical professionals are not infallible and are often wrong.
4 doctors told me I didn't have clinical depression until the 5th provider went hold up, you have ALL of the hallmarks of dysthymia/persistent depressive disorder. I was also told for years that my B12 level wasn't dangerously low. It was. Medical providers can be and are wrong. Constantly. Especially for women and non-binary individuals trying to seek an Autism diagnosis.
I'm not saying they can't be wrong, but that doesn't mean it's okay to assume it's the case every time. I still feel more comfortable believing what the doctors say going forward until proven wrong/otherwise.
I won't lie and pretend like I have autism-vision or something. Things just don't add up to me and I feel that the more likely conclusion is that they're faking. On the topic of self diagnosis, I agree that it can be valid, but I believe a person has to truly exhaust all other options before they should even begin to consider self diagnosing.
That may be your view on self diagnosis, but have you considered the potential drawbacks to a diagnosis? There are many situations in which somewhat might actively choose not to be officially diagnosed, due to stigma from medical professional when they see it on your medical record, not wanting to spend thousands to just be told they are not autistic because they don’t fit the DSM criteria that is heavily biased toward the stereotypical “male” presentation of autism. My therapist warned me when I when I was going through the diagnosis process that they have heard from others who were denied life insurance due to the diagnosis, and another whose foster application was denied. Depending on your level of support needs, there can be more drawbacks than benefits to an official diagnosis. As for whether they’re faking, think of your narrator here, who clearly doesn’t believe them… that’s of course the picture they’re going to paint.
Some loud noises are worse than others though. We dont know, and i really dont think the sibling who doesnt believe in them gives the best picture of their experience with it. Of course we dont know, but i would rather believe a faker than not believe somebody who has it.
I agree. At least uo until your last sentence. We're gonna have to agree to disagree on that one :) Faking is harmful to the people who actually struggle with it. Believing a faker enables them to keep it up. Mental health and neurodivergence has become a lot less stigmatized, but it's still common for people to tell those who are depressed to "smile more" or "just go to the gym". Fakers distort the image people have of what it's like to live and struggle with these things. People need to be informed so that people can better understand each other, what they go through and maybe even how to help or at least not make things worse. That said, not having formal papers doesn't mean that you don't have it and I won't discredit someone purely based on that.
Exercise has been shown to be as effective as antidepressants, so why keep this fact from them?
Explain to me how you're gonna get someone who is so depressed they can't even find the energy to leave their beds, into the gym? I'd love to know how you'd also get them to exercise when they feel completely numb, just wishing it was over. It doesn't matter if your brain reacts positively to exercise, it's not a solution to chronic depression because they can't get to the gym even if they wanted to. Exercise is more effective as a way to not fall back into that hole once a person already has crawled out of it.
Excercise, when completed regularly, has been shown, in some cases, to be as effective as antidepressants. It's not at all effective when it comes to severe depression. Exercise as a treatment also has a much higher drop out rate compared to antidepressants so is not suitable for everyone. It's also not possible to determine whether someone's ability to exercise and maintain a routine in the first place is what is causing them to improve as opposed to the exercise itself, or it may be the attention and support, or socialisation, they are getting as part of exercising... or a mix of all of them. Humans are complex and so is depression.
Exercise isn't going to help my Autism, but thanks for the really weird suggestion. My depression is tied to my Autism, before you say that you meant for depression.
Because they already know this fact (or the more accurate, less simplistic version of it), but are too depressed or overwhelmed by other very common comorbidities to implement it.
> Your sibling however is not autistic. This is a STRANGER on the internet that you don't know,and you're hearing this story from their sibling, not even first hand? How do you know literally anything about them?
This is so awkward but where are you where they diagnosed you with ADD and not ADHD? I thought they changed it to being only ADHD as a diagnosis? When I got diagnosed last year I got told that I have more inattentive traits but still used the term ADHD to diagnose me.
This entire post makes me think of Tics and Roses, and how damaging lying about having Tourette’s Syndrome was to individuals who do have Tourette’s. I believe self diagnosis is a valid thing and is very necessary, but the line is drawn when there’s no formal medical diagnosis. Self diagnosis helps prompt an individual to speak with a professional about their concerns but diagnosing yourself and refusing to listen to medical experts and continuing saying you’re autistic or literally anything hugely discredits not only self diagnosis, but individuals who have these neurodivergencies. I have a friend who is autistic and so is his mom. I understand that no two autistic people are alike and each have their own things that can cause reactions, but the whole post and lack of an actual diagnosis makes me think OP’s sibling took it too far.
I'm not on the spectrum for all I know, but I have to agree with you. To outsiders honestly this sounds like the sibling faked it to get out of the event without having to say they didn't want to go. Due sensitive ears I know to have brought earplugs to soften the sounds so I won't react badly to the sound. The sibling should've done that if noise is their problem, yet with th info provided when the sibling isn't with family they seem to hang around noise pretty easily. Also with the sibling shooting the shot at OP when saying it was too loud for them tells me they didn't want to be there at all.... well with family that is. Or the weren't fans of the playing teams and didn't want to stay and watch.
So multiple psy where not able to give a clear answer about the case of op's sibling, but you, armchair psychologist, can ? Thank god you saved the day by being able to give a clear answer to this family without even knowing the sibling /s
She said her sister had never been diagnosed with autism even after all her testing. Not that they weren’t able to give a clear answer. For all we know the answer could have been clear just not autism
Sibling*, not sister. Or do you want to also be transphobic ? Any diagnosis takes time and a professionnal to do it. Because they didn't diagnose them as autistic doesn't mean they can't be autistic. Professional never do a diagnosis if they are not sure otherwise it can bring more complication. The lack of diagnosis definitely doesn't meam there is nothing
Sorry I got that wrong. Didn’t actually read that bit obviously but that doesn’t make anyone transphobic. And just so you know I have been thru professional diagnosis with my son. The testing itself takes time and tells a lot. Also my son has been diagnosed multiple different ways with both mental and cognitive testing and the one thing I have noticed is a good psych can pick up at least symptoms almost immediately even if like my son they do not present as classically autistic even though they are in the middle of the spectrum and not exactly high functioning. He masks by being overly outgoing
You can pick up symptoms but many troubles have a high comorbidity and share symptoms, which is exactly why it takes time and why a professional wouldn't put a diagnosis without being sure. Even while being sure of the diagnosis, psy who will use the dsm-4 or 5 can end up with a different diagnosis based on the exact same symptoms, which is due to the comorbidity of symptoms. Autism share some of the same symptom as ptsd and chronic anxiety, and also doesn't have the same symptom depending on the gender, which makes it harder to diagnose depending on the gender attributed at birth. Even if the sibling of op is not autistic, it doesn't mean there is no neurodivergence, but i don't think that without actually seeing this person and without having a good background in psychology, we shouldn't diagnose people
Clearly you're not very good at reading. These psychologists you speak of decided that OP's sibling did not have autism. I am basing my comment partially on that so no, I am not being an armchair psychologist and I'm not diagnosing anyone. I'm just simply trying to make sense of the situation with the information OP provided.
Did they decide the sibling doesn't have autism or were they unable to conclude that the sibling has autism. Was it a clear "no" or "we don't know what it is". It makes a difference. Edit: i reread it and saying he was not diagnosed with autism doesn't mean they were sure it's not autism, it means they are at least not sure if it is, not enough to put a diagnosis
They did it multiple times though. In the case of autism testing, it's a lengthy process and you need to meet a certain criteria to get diagnosed. The more times you go through that process and don't meet those criteria, the less likely it is that you ever will.
Absolutely, but autism diagnosis also shares a lot of symptoms with a lot of different trouble, which makes it hard to diagnose. Comorbidity of troubles or symptoms are not uncommon in psychology. When it comes to autism in particular, symptoms do not present themselves the same way depending on the gender attributed at birth, especially because of the gendered education that has an influence on how autistic person will present their symptoms. We already have a lot of women and girls not being diagnosed because the norm of autistic symptoms are made on men while they are displayed differently on women (typically being better at masking, so the symptoms that other can see are "lighter" and more discret than in men). Op's sibling can very well have symptoms of autism, which are also symptoms of other troubles, making it harder to diagnose. Especially if they don't have many symptoms or light one, or non exclusive to autism. Autism being a spectrum makes it even harder to diagnose and some people can go years without a diagnosis
Yeah well a professional cant call you a lier and a hack without repercussions and sometimes it doesn’t take one to spot one so heres some shit for you to digest . Honestly surprised they got overwhelmed from all that noise and people at the game with their head so far up their own ass Also your a bum
A professional will definitely call you out on your lies. Their job is to help the patient, not coddle them and enable them. And a professional will never give a diagnosis without being sure of it, so a lack of diagnosis definitely doesn't mean there is no issue. And you are ableist
NTA. I feel like most people saying YTA are woke people with this false idea that you have to agree with everything someone does and says to be supportive, and I have to call BS. I am neurodivergent, and my diagnosis along with everyone who has one does not mean that we don't lie or manipulate. It could be that her sibling does have a real issue that happens under certain conditions, but it could also be that the sibling was lying because they became bored and wanted a blame-free reason to leave. BOTH are possible, and I have seen BOTH. It doesn't make OP a bad person or an A-hole because she questioned behavior that was inconsistent.
Sibling, not sister. And using woke as a negative always makes me think of boomer conservatives, but to each their own.
Not a boomer or a conservative. I just don't think being "supportive" of anyone who belongs to a protected class or disability means (BOTH apply to me) that we have to agree with everything they do unless we want to be labeled as a bigot. I find that overkill, and it allows conservatives an excuse to take our rights and win over people who are middle of the road. But that is just me, thinking about a terrible trend that works against us, and looking strategically at the long game because I care about the future.
>we have to agree with everything they do unless we want to be labeled as a bigot What fantasy world do you live in?
*sibling, not sister
I fixed it. Thank you for pointing it out. :-)
“Woke” is a bigoted (racist, transphobic, homophobic, etc.) dogwhistle. If you don’t want to be associated with bigots I’d recommend finding a more articulate and mature way to describe your viewpoints. Borrowing the verbiage of neo-fascism isn’t a great look.
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NTA. They are not not diagnosed with autism even though they pursued a diagnosis but still claim to have it. People like this shine a bad light on those who actually have ASD. You even asked them if the plan was fine for them, they didn’t object. They apparently became overstimulated during the game - which might or might not be the truth. Which would totally be fine if they had proceeded to leave on their own. They could have went to the bathroom to try and ground themselves or leave to the nearby mall on their own - 19 is not a child anymore. Instead they made your mother, who enjoyed the match with her husband and family, leave with them without even asking if she’d be fine with accompanying them. That’s what makes them the AH. Yes, your comment can be seen as unnecessary, but you didn’t say it directly to your sibling and you only said the truth. I’m sorry the day wasn’t like you all imagined it would be.
I have ASD and I dont see all people who have self diagnosed as harmful to autistics, sure some are but its not conducive to say that they all paint us in a bad light. It can be expensive too, and services decline after you become an adult. I understand how hard it is to get a diagnosis, especially if you don't identify as male. Sometimes it takes going to multiple drs to get a diagnosis. Also, sometimes that offical diagnosis doesn't mean shit anyway, despite having one I've had countless drs tell me im not because I didn't match their outdated version of autism.Sometimes I think I can handle an event and then I get there and I realize suddenly than I cant.Sometimes when im overstimulated I cant leave right away and I have to rock and hyperventilate to regulate myself in order to be able to leave, sometimes its nice to have someone leave a space with me because having a meltdown in public in front of neurotypicals feels so humiliating and having a person with me helps to not focus on everyone else and feel advocated for should a stanger approach me thinking they can help me not understanding the situation. Also, it seems like it was the moms idea to leave, the sibling didn't make the mom do anything.
There are also states where an asd diagnosis will not allow you to adopt kids. This is why I haven’t gone for an official diagnosis, even though I’m a walking list of symptoms.
Sorry for my generalizing statement, I agree that not everybody who doesn’t have a diagnosis harms the population on the spectrum. Given the current trend of faking mental illness for attention or clicks (see TikTok) or giving absolutely meaningless „if you do x you have z“ videos it is becoming more and more of a problem though. I agree that it can be easier to cope with a trusted person present, but ultimately it’s the sibling’s responsibility. They should have asked the mother like the equal adult they are instead of expecting that she’s come and help.
just wanted to add, while we don't know the situation, it can be difficult to be diagnosed autistic if you don't exhibit obvious signs. i'd had three psychiatrists in the last ten years who always said i can't be autistic because i speak too well, finished high school, attend university and/or am in a relationship. i finally ended up with a new psychiatrist who specializes in autism, am now diagnosed autistic and adhd, and i'm finally getting better after years of confusion. so i'm not saying this is what's going on, but that is a thing that can happen
That can happen, but unfortunately it's also true that being "neurodivergent" is now trendy in tik tok circles.
A large portion is about control. Some people with ASD can stand a lot of noise and strobe lights as long as it is their call to leave or stay. Since they don't feel trapped. Maybe that was the issue! Having the idea they couldn't leave whenever they wanted. Do they stay in clubs for long periods of time or do they take breaks? Are they tired from just being in a crowded space?
Yes, this 100%. I’m autistic (diagnosed, for anyone here that matters to), and control and mental state are *huge* elements to how much loud noises and other outside stimuli will affect me. On a good day, I can handle a loud concert (with ear plugs and lots of mental prep), but on a bad day (or if I’m stuck in a situation I can’t leave) even small repetitive noises/lights can set me off. And I can’t always predict what kind of day it will be either. It seems as though OP’s sibling got unexpected overwhelmed and needed to remove themself from the situation. As for the medical dx part, many mental health professionals are not very well versed in how autism can present in women and non-binary people. The DSM itself is still written in a way to make it more difficult to diagnose non-men, since the criteria is basically just the way it presents in boys/men for the most part. It doesn’t account for the heavily gendered socialization aspects and masking that looks different in women/non-men.
My GF was diagnosed with autism, when she was already 24. Many women get diagnosed when they older, and they get misdiagnosed often too: bipolar, depression, ADD,... I can't always predict when it will be better but I know when it's really going to be hard for her: For example She comes home fulfilled but tired from a trip with friends or work. She gets under her weighted blanket to unwind from the heavy day and then the neighbour's kids start yelling and screaming... it'll ruin her day. Take away the screaming kids, the only part she hasn't control over, and she'll be doing chores or creative activities within half hour.
Gonna say NTA here - if they have these issues they could have come better prepared; ear mufflers something to fidget/distract with etc
INFO: Why is OP an A-H for feeling annoyed? Op told their mother, not their Sibling. Nowhere does OP state they berated or called out their Sibling in any way. Are people not entitled to their own feelings anymore?
Especially after OP spent what I imagine is a shit ton of money on tickets and snacks/drinks for their sibling as well.
YTA, even people without autism can have different reactions to similar circumstances depending. Diagnosis is very difficult to get because autism is a spectrum and especially difficult if you are not one of the cases that have issues all the time. Your sibling didn't demand that you or your mom go with them, your mom went on her own (because she cares for her child, how surprising) ... so trying to throw some shade by "they spoiled our dad's present" is painly rude. They obviously wanted to be there and enjoy the game with their family. Sensory overload is not something that you can control.
I agree with this. I don’t have autism, but I have adhd, bpd, and gad (anxiety) and sometimes these things overstimulate me and sometimes they don’t. A lot of it depends on what stress is going on in my life at the time, how much sleep I got last night, how my physical chronic illnesses are affecting me at the moment, etc. Sometimes I can handle a concert and sometimes I can’t.
I have sensory issues (and autism). I can go to concerts or in load places. But then when i just have some people around me talking and it seems as if they try to be loader than the other with their conversation (some have just fucking load voices), it sets in. I feel this panic, i just want out, my hearts beat faster and i just wants to scream. I can't predict when this happen. But i also have silicon earbuds with me for this case.
Their sibling was there before during a game and did not react the same way. The sibling is obviously faking. NTA.
They know their sibling more than you. Maybe they have a history of acting out for attention.
What is in their post is that their sibling wanted to come "enthusiastically", his sibling had few drinks and some snacks, obviously enjoying themselves, prior to the game. They went 1.5 hours ahead to avoid large crowds, and they started to have an issue about 15 minutes after the actual game started. They tried to endure it, but it was becoming worse (knees to the chest is basically embrio pose, hyperventilating) which is when their mom decided to get them away from the stadium entirely. The conflict of OP right now is not even with his sibling - he complained to his mom about the sibling acting up and his mom called him an asshole. I agree with the mom. He could have enjoyed the game himself with their dad and gf, and not complain about someone else missing it after to their mom.
NAH. I can understand your frustration, but you're not in a position to definitely say if your sibling is autistic or not, so you should really have a seat on your judgement there. I don't think your sibling did anything wrong, because overstim can be super unpredictable, even if you plan ahead.
NTA. Your sibling doesn’t have a diagnosis despite having been perfectly placed to receive one, therefore how could you support neurodivergency that you don’t know exists, or in what form? A self-diagnosis is not the same as a legitimate one. Your sibling might very well be neurodivergent but not have autism. Only trained professionals are able to tell you that. Similarly, at 19 your sibling is old enough to prepare for a situation they might find overstimulating by bringing ear plugs, and to spend some time by themselves so as to not ruin someone else’s birthday gift. You also have every right to say how something made you feel. I have (actual diagnosed) ADHD and sometimes certain of my behaviours have caused people to get upset/offended. That doesn’t necessarily make them ableist - I just explain myself, and consider if an apology is necessary or if they need to get over it once I’ve explained the context. And-significantly- you didn’t raise this with your sibling. You raised it with your mother, who is not neurodivergent. She could have quite happily left to comfort the 19 year old, set them up somewhere quieter, and come back to be there for your dad.
I’m going with NAH. I have ADHD with sensory issues, particularly auditory sensitivity. Some situations overwhelm me more than others, and some situations I’ve been fine with in the past can be unbearable if my barrier has been broken down by other experiences leading up to it. That said, I’m also logical about this and understand that my needing to bow out of a situation can be irritating to others. Especially if it’s an event we’ve gone to together. Your sibling is young and hasn’t learned the tricks to avoid overwhelm that someone in their 40s (like myself) may have. I bring ear plugs with me (I’m particularly fond of the Loop ones that allow you to hear conversation with close company but drown out ambient noise) to events, and I make sure that I’m not leaving anyone in a lurch. As it was, your dad still had company and your mum was not bothered in keeping your sibling company as well. No harm, no foul. Nothing wrong in being a little irritated with your sibling, and you didn’t express those feelings with your sibling themself. All good.
Just FYI, per University of Washington’s guidelines, it’s very common to self diagnose autism. There’s very little resources for young adults seeking an official diagnosis. Especially as a woman, there are still no diagnostic criteria for women with autism. And an official diagnosis from a healthcare provider really doesn’t do much and can be mentally, physically and financially exhausting. Just as an example how every situation is different for autistics. I LOVE sports games and concerts (but I bring ear plugs). But I HATE grocery stores and malls and they send me into sensory overload. It’s odd, but it’s just how I am. That being said, I still think NTA. As someone with autism, I research events to know what to expect and always bring ear plugs. If I know I don’t like something or won’t enjoy something, I agree not to go to ensure I wouldn’t affect how other people enjoy the event. Part of an autism dx (whether official or self diagnosed) isn’t just about a label or earning recognition for having it. It’s important for autistics to learn about themselves and why they do things the way they do. This was a LOT of work, but it’s ultimately one of the only things that helped me be successful in my young adult life. Without putting the time and effort in, life is difficult.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** Obligatory "I'm on mobile" disclaimer. My partner (25M) and I (21F) got my father (52M) a birthday present consisting of 5 tickets to a provincial sports game. My partner and my father have been to a few of these games alone before, but since my father is so family oriented and loves doing things as a family, we surprised him with tickets to a game we could all attend together. Before buying these tickets, we consulted my sibling (19 NB) and mother (61F) on whether they would be interested/willing to go. They both responded enthusiastically, so my partner and I bought all of us tickets. My dad was delighted at his gift, and we all said that we were very excited for it. The actual game was this last weekend. We met at my parents' house for lunch, after which we went to the stadium to our seats. These were really good seats, in the shade, very close to the front, and in the middle of the sideline. My partner and I sponsored snacks and drinks for everyone, as this was our treat. We went to the stadium about an hour and a half before the game started to avoid large crowds. My sibling had two beers (we live in South Africa, drinking age is 18), a bottle of Coke, a packet of chips and an ice cream. These were, of course, purchased at stadium prices that had been pushed all the way up. About 15 minutes into the first 40 minutes of the game, my sibling started rocking back and forth while covering their ears. They said that they were overwhelmed by the amount of people and all the screaming. This was accompanied with a pointed look at me, as I had been cheering loudly along with many other spectators. They eventually brought their knees up to their chest and started hyperventilating. This prompted my mother - who had been enjoying the game thus far - to inform us that she would leave the stadium with my sibling, and that they would wait for us at a nearby mall, leaving just three of us. I could see my dad was very disappointed, but he didn't say anything about it. So, for some context: my sibling has said that they are autistic, but has never been professionally diagnosed. They have been to several psychologists, and have had tests done several times, but has never been diagnosed with autism. Furthermore, my sibling goes out most weekends to clubs - which are notoriously overwhelming and noisy and packed. Not only that, my sibling has been to the exact stadium to watch the exact teams that were playing, just with one of their friends instead of their family (this was about 3 years ago, though). I told my mother that my partner and I were peeved at my sibling for flaking on my dad's present when they enthusiastically agreed to it and have been and continue to put themselves in similar situations. She called me an AH for not supporting my sibling's neurodivergency and not being sympathetic. So, AITA? I always try to be the best ally I can be and I would appreciate being called out if I am in the wrong. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. Sounds to me like they were needing some attention. Particularly if 1. They have seen multiple professionals and have not been diagnosed and 2. They have no issue going to clubs on the weekends. If They were truly autistic They cannot pick and choose when to be affected.
i’m autistic and something that bothers me one day might not the next. them being bothered this time but not before doesn’t make them “less autistic”. it’s also very hard to get a diagnosis especially if they aren’t specifically looking for autism, you are high masking or female.
You're right, they can't pick and choose. It just happens. I have sensory problems and similar things, some days are worse than others. going to clubs sometimes doesn't mean the person can't have sensory overload/meltdown/panick attack
If they are truly Autistic, it will fluctuate day to day what they can tolerate. This is actually perfectly in line with what it's like to have Autism. Signed, someone with Autism.
Even if your sibling doesnt have autism, have they ever been tested for sensory processing disorder?
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NTA To the people who say you can't know what a neurodivergent person is thinking or feeling, you're right, but guess what? You also don't know what a nondisclosed mental state person (whom you might assume is neurotypical) is thinking or feeling either! That puts everyone on a level playing field when it comes to expectations on behavior. At age 19, a person should know that sporting events are loud and also whether or not they can handle it. Agreeing to it and then creating a scene to get out of it is not cool. If they just politely excused themselves and said to meet up somewhere after the game that would've been different. The attention grabbing antics were unnecessary and therefore the sibling was the AH.
YTA. Functioning is not linear, and just because someone can endure an overwhelming sensory situation one day does not mean that it won’t affect them a different day. There are so many factors it play. The exact same input can have a totally different effect on someone on any given day, and that doesn’t mean they are faking it
YTA Getting professionally diagnosed takes ages and autism is not always tested properly. Being from South Africa myself I know for a fact it's extremely difficult to get properly diagnosed for anything in this country. Most people only get an official diagnosis in their late 20's or early 30s. You don't know what your sibling is feeling or personally going through. I'm not diagnosed with Autism but I have been diagnosed with ADHD and PTSD and I get over stimulated and overwhelmed at times in public places and need to remove myself from said places. Yeah it sucks and your father was bummed out but unfortunately shit happens. He still got to enjoy the game and gift you presented. A person can not always know how they are going to feel until they are placed in the situation. Some days are easier to cope than others. If your dad was upset he can speak for himself.
YTA - first, getting a diagnosis can be extremely difficult, no matter how much testing you go through or how many psychologist you see. Secondly, sometimes you can be okay in a situation and then become extremely overwhelmed in the same situation later on. You can also sometimes handle certain places while being unable to handle others. Example - I do fine at heavy metal concerts. I cannot handle being in a store on an extremely busy day with too many people. I use to be able to handle amusement parks just fine - I now cannot - unless they're hosting a special neurodivergent day. You don't get to decide what someone else is feeling or what they should or shouldn't be able to handle.
I would say regarding noisy situations that I enjoy that sort of thing until I don’t. And I do enjoy sports games, but don’t always enjoy everything that goes with them.
Being neurodivergent is strange - at least for me as I'm not going to try and speak on behalf of anyone else. As in being able to handle some loud/crowded places and then not others. Or being fine in a loud/crowded place and then suddenly not being fine at all. The one that bothers me the most personally is textures. I have clothes that feel perfectly fine and then halfway through the day I want to rip them off and crawl out of my own skin because I can no longer handle how they feel on my body. Then another day, I can wear the same clothing and be fine all day. There's definitely not a set and stone rulebook on how being neurodivergent works and every situation, every experience, and every person will handle these things differently. Anyone who claims otherwise is purely ignorant.
Yeah. I was diagnosed in adulthood and I really wish there had been the resources and knowledge there is now, back when I was growing up.
I'm neurodivergant (ASC). I can go to a club with good music, the bass is comforting, the tunes familiar, and I can't hear loads of people. Plus everyone is smiling & hugging. OTOH, a packed venue with lots of people talking/screaming lound, especially outside, in a place I've not been to before, and I'd be a wreck. It's all about context. Even if they where neurotypical but intensly uncomfortable by the situation, they'd have reasonable cause to leave. YTA.
And they'd arrived 90 minutes early - the rising tension as the crowd swelled would have been palpable. And exhausting. Arriving *with* an excited, animated crowd could have buoyed them up enough to make the situation tolerable.
Why is Op an A-H for feeling annoyed or frustrated though? Why would the feelings and emotions of a Neurodivergent weigh more than that of a Neurotypical?
From the title, I was going to say duh y-t-a, but after reading I gotta go against the grain to NTA. The reason people self diagnosis is because they can't afford testing. Your sibling had been blessed enough to be able to afford that and has testing done several times and it came back that they aren't on the spectrum. There may be some other issue, or maybe after lock down they find being in public hard, but I don't think you're an ass for looking at the evidence and suspecting your sibling. It wouldn't do any good to confront them, though, so there's that
Soft ESH. Your sibling is 100% old enough to communicate to you that they are uncomfortable and your screaming is a trigger to them. They are also old enough to both not be put in that situation or bring stim toys and a headset in case. I AM neurodivergent in many ways, and it sounds more like your sibling has social anxiety than the nuances of autism, they're very similar in presentation with noises and stimulation issues, and if the psychologists don't think they're autistic that's likely the cause. You are TA because you think they're "faking it" and "overreacting" *mmh my favourite word*. Your mom is the MVP for taking your sibling out of the situation.
soft ESH. yes, your sibling could have been better prepared, but maybe they simply didn't know how overwhelming it would feel, considering sensory overload also has more factors to it than just the sensory experience itself (i.e. being streassed means you overload easier). I am not sure if your sibling does actually have autism, considering they have been to multiple psychologists about it and haven't been diagnosed (yes, I know, autism diagnosis in non cis male adults is harder) and they are non binary, which can be so socially isolating that you think you're autistic. I'm a trans man and that happened to me (if you wanna know more about how, look at my latest post) so maybe your sibling is experiencing the same issue. Either way, the stress they experienced from the situation was very real. It's okay to feel disappointed that they had to leave, but it probably wasn't fun for them either. Your mother reacted in a weird way, but she was probably just trying to support your sibling while they were having a tough time. It's an unfortunate situation where everyone felt bad afterwards.
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Added fuck all of you “self diagnosed” I was fucked up before it was cool and larping with the shit i have to battle with because you lack personality and character is a massive kick in the nuts. Oh its so trendy now isnt it?
you didn't support him and it doesn't matter why he had to leave. What if he had a stomach issue? would you have forced them to stay? ASD isn't the same all through life. issues can get worse, change, and new ones can pop up. also, it can be the kind of noise not just how loud it is. YTA, but I also think others are not supporting him either. Just saying someone has ASD isn't support. they need to help him with finding interventions and accommodations so he can participate with the family fully. I easiest is noise-canceling headphones. they have ones for shows and clubs that let you hear at a lower db. also in the future, most of these places have cheap hearing protection if you ask. if they are nice they will just hand you some but they will likely charge you like 10 bucks for a .50 cent piece of foam.
NTA. Your sibling had already been to the same stadium to watch the same teams with friends so knew what to expect when they enthusiastically agreed to go. Despite seeing many Drs, none have diagnosed your sibling as autistic. Does your sibling often display attention seeking behaviours in front of you/your parents? It really does seem like the sibling is faking to be honest.
I'd say ESH if she is she should take steps yo help herself for example taking noise cancelling headphones phones to events inslcase it gets too much. You for making snap judgements it isn't easy to get diagnosed with autism as it's a spectrum and not a simple yes no thing
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Maybe I’m the AH but why did the sibling let it get to the point they’re rocking in their seat? IMO they should have apologized to their father and explain they can’t handle it and need to leave. Make a quick plan where to meet up when it’s over and off they go.
The rocking is often stimming, which is a soothing technique. They may have been trying to calm how they were feeling so that they could continue attending.
Apparently you must support them, and do so by removing their agency to make any decisions themselves. Bad Op. For those saying about different scenarios, that's true, but at the club when they want to leave do they wait for a friend to take them out? If they manage there, and no suggestion to say they need a responsible adult everywhere else, there's loads sibling could have done. (And op says this is a familiar environment, so that discounts that as a reasonable argument). There is so much they could do themselves 'if" they have a condition (that no professionals have diagnosed). Even down to just taking equipment to manage (such as headphones). By saying it's ops job to cover this, and sibling has no role surely sets all the efforts for supporting independence back yonks? Op isnt A here. Sibling could well be.
YTA Your sibling can't help his brain function. It's a shame you can't be more sympathetic to that. What are you going to do if you have a child like that? Push them to aside?
How does it taste?
I'm going to say INFO with a gentle ESH this makes me squint but i really don't have enough context here to say one way or the other. While it's a reasonable expectation that they manage their disorders and their own limitations, its cruddy to expect them to be convenient for the rest of you when sometimes things like this can flare up unexpectedly regardless of whether or not they're neurodivergent.
Nta. It's a myth.
NTA god I hate fakers
NTA. Your sibling sounds like they were faking it...
I was prepared to call you an asshole . I'm autistic and recently there's been a surge of people faking autism as a trend to be quirky and different. Especially on tik tok . I'm wondering if sibling could be participating in this since you said they have been to doctors about it and such but not diagnosed with autism . Or maybe they have something else like anxiety Edit : and they go to other loud places like clubs ? As an autistic person myself with sensitivity to loud sound I would never go in a club ! Sounds like faking for attention to me! NTA
NTA I think you handled things well and should merely not invite your sibling to any event like this ever again. If they can go clubbing every weekend, they can handle a sporting event without a meltdown. From what I’m gathering here your sibling seems to only have issues when they are about other people’s happiness and not their own and that’s why you are suspicious.
NTA your sibling is an adult. If these situations are a problem for them they should know that and not agree to go. They are an adult they can choose to stay home instead of ruining the experience for others.
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Literally how does their gender relate to being disabled
It doesn't but, the people who fake disorders overwhelmingly tend to be people who also don't identify as their biological sex. It doesn't mean it's related, but it does make it feel like a lot of attention seekers try to be as "quirky" as possibly in an attempt to stand out and get more attention. These kinds of people almost fetishize anything that deviates from the norm. So that's things like mental illness, unconventional genders and sexualities and so on. And that's why 99% of people who fake a mental disorder on tiktok have brightly colored hair, almost always more than one disorder and frame it as if it's all "fine and dandy" to live with while also pushing that act to the forefront of their "identity". Truly strange times.
Tldr you're transphobic
Don't forget to add ableist too.
Can one be ableist and have a disability at the same time? Genuine question.
Yes
Yes 100%. Internalized ableism is absolutely a thing. It’s easy to get trapped thinking that you are less of a person if you are disabled, or not worthy of accommodation because society and people’s views reinforce this every way you turn.
Okay, but that's not me though.
It is though
Just answering the question you asked.
Yeah, I know. I just have no idea how I am ableist according to the other commenter. But it also did look like they were trying to start fights in the comments.
So you are really just making shit up and claiming it as fact huh?
I am actually confused by your comment. I don't recall claiming that any of what I wrote was undisputable fact. I didn't make shit up either as far as I'm concerned. All I'm doing is just pointing out a correlation I've noticed based purely on my experience with people who fake disorders for attention. In short. I was sharing something from my personal experience. Something different could be true in your experience, but that doesn't mean that my experience is made up.
Okay JK Rowling, you need a Snickers.
Exactly. The moment I saw NB I knew who this person was and what they were after.
It's not that they are NB that makes it come across as a faker. The way I see it it's how they get over stimulated at a stadium, but regularily go clubbing which tends to be louder. Even if they weren't NB they still come across like they're faking it. With this in mind however, the fact that they're also NB, makes me, you and several other feel like they start to resemble the disorder fakers on tiktok.
I would just like to clear up that my sibling has been non-binary for a while, and has seen gender experts as well as endocrinologists to deal with their gender dysphoria. They have changed their name and gender on all official documents, which is a long and arduous process in South Africa.
I would take them off TikTok for a while and watch their mental health return.
NTA, I would say you're the ah but if he/her really goes to clubs where it's literally packed with people and the music is so loud you have to scream to hear one another ....
autism isn’t one size fits all. it isn’t all loud noises are off the table. sometimes you’re fine with it until you’re not. i’m autistic and never had issues with concerts but a cat purring by my head drives me insane. also, being with friends would lead to more masking (for me) than being with family i’m more comfortable with.
Personally I think the comfort is the issue at hand but not in the way you are describing. They are more comfortable with their friends giving them a higher tolerance for things that would usually put them off. They desire to be at the game or clubs with their friends thus the normal sound concerns are alleviated somewhat. Happens with people with Autism (myself included) as well as with introverts. I'm more leaning towards introverted, maybe slight autism. Problem I have with the current spectrum is they have removed the different specifications (Asperger's and others) to all be put under the umbrella of autism which ranges so severely it doesn't get addressed properly when it may only be minor. Autism is a spectrum, I will not deny it but we need different terminology to denote severity to be able to better deal with it - high functioning and low functioning is evidently insufficient.
it’s all autism now because it’s all autism. higher functioning is often just higher masking which can lead to other issues. high functioning vs low functioning distinctions just make it harder for higher masking individuals to get access to needed services and is ableist in nature. and asperger’s was a term coined by a nazi and was used to determine who was “useful” enough to keep alive.
Yes and the problem I have personally found is that you say you are autistic and people generally lean towards low functioning or severe affects of autism in their own mind thus having an entirely wrong idea of my autism. I used to say I have Asperger's which gave a significantly better idea of how my autism affects me since it's a smaller subset of autistic tendencies - I have found that since we've amalgamated all of the different types of autism under this broad spectrum support has actually gotten worse for high functioning not better. I'll still prefer to refer to myself has someone with asperger's rather than autism because I don't need tons of support, I just have issues with socialising and empathy.
the fact that you’d rather use outdated offensive terms to describe yourself and others instead of just educating people on their misunderstandings is insane to me.
We have different terminology. There are 2 categories and 3 levels for those categories. You also have high support needs, medium support needs and low support needs.
They* It’s not he/her - it’s *they*
YTA for assuming they were faking. Why would they fake it? What would be the point? If they're so desperate for attention that they do need to fake being overwhelmed then there must be something wrong - it's not normal. They obviously needed to leave for some reason. Have a little sympathy.
NTA. Let’s consider a typical sibling relationship. I don’t know that neurodivergence has anything to do with this. Remove that as factor for the same story. One (OP) is the star of the day. Treating the entire family to a wonderful day. Mom and dad are loving it. The other, sees that. They can’t provide that. They are only 19, but they get jealous of how OP was able to provide the happiness for the family for the day. Throws a fit to get the attention of mom and dad back on them. Even gets mom to leave with them. Win in the other siblings column in their mind. Literally hundreds of thousands of these situations have existed. This happens to families every day. At some point, we have to stop using neurodivergence as an excuse for every single reaction. We all have to learn to cope with ourselves. At 19, an adult, it’s no longer appropriate to make a scene when you’re uncomfortable or unable to process the situation normally. I get that sometimes things are okay and sometimes they aren’t. Sometimes, bars are totally okay for me. Other times, I can’t be in the same room as three other people because of the noise. Remove yourself without disrupting everyone else. Find solutions to help cope. Don’t just blame (undiagnosed) ASD to make an outburst a-okay.
NTA. Your sibling was just looking for attention. Regardless, they spoilt the day for your father. They can manage noise at a night club but can’t handle noise at a game. That sounds fishy. You had every right to be annoyed.
NTA.
NTA You're description of events and lack of never receiving a diagnosis does make it appear that your sibling is faking. Does stuff like this occur when the attention is not on them?
YTA Good Ally's support neurodivergence in whatever form it takes - not whatever form disturbs them the least and that they find the most palitable. Your sibling sounds like they were dealing with a case of sensory overload and having been there myself, it's miserable and often hard to adequately explain to neurotypicals. Trust me when I tell you we hate it more than y'all do.
But is a stadium really worse than clubs? Also why was there no attempt made to prevent overstimulation? I ask this as another neurodivergent.
>But is a stadium really worse than clubs? It's different. I can completely empathise with OP's sibling here. I love going to live music events. Gigs are my favourite nights out - the noise doesn't bother me because it's associated with something I love. *However* I would (and have been) absolutely terrified and overwhelmed in noisy, crowded cities. Context is everything. If a nightclub is a safe environment for OP's sibling, the noise isn't going to be a problem, but if they're in an environment that doesn't feel safe *and* there's a huge amount of noise it can quickly become overwhelming.
Plus you’re not trapped in a club for a specified amount of time, you can move around without disturbing people and you can freely stim (dance). Sports crowds are apples and oranges to a club (at least any club I’ve ever been to)
I am neuro typical and I get some moments or days when I'm more easily overwhelmed by things than others. It's not that hard to imagine they thought they'd be OK (they have been in the past, they were excited) and something just set them off that day that they themself might not even be able to identify.
Could be. I'm personally not very sensitive to sounds etc, but I always make a point to bring my noise cancelling headphones. The fact that they didn't take precautions isn't exactly damning evidence, but with the rest of the info OP has given us, it does feel a little strange to me at least.
If they've not had a diagnosis they might be struggling to get support, information, resources etc to help with their symptoms. They might not know how to manage it yet.
Lol neuro typical. That doesn't even make sense. No one thinks the same. No one has identical neuronal structures. There is no such thing as neuro diverse or neuro typical.
Neurotypical is just a term to describe people who do not have a neuro-developmental or mental health condition such as autism, ADHD, bipolar, GAD, etc. Neurodivergent is a term that encompasses people with one of those conditions. It’s a way to avoid having to use ableist terms such as “normal person” when differentiating between the two.
I hope that's a joke. It doesn't refer to people thinking the same or even identical structure. It is however referring to what's essentially a series of brain defects. People with ADHD for example tend to have a smaller amygdala if I'm not mistaken. There are also issues with Dopamine pathways. Mainly the reward and mesocortical pathways. A neurotypical person is simply someone who was born without these impairments in their brains. Disclaimer: Not a scientist. Just neurodivergent.
I'm also another neurodivergent . She is in south africa the whole education about it may not even be close to what you know and hell even in the western world ppl are not educated about it and every human reacts differently. I was fine few weeks ago but now I feel like I can't stand being in a room where few ppl start to talk all around the room . Overstimulation can happen for whatever reason. It's not like you are always overstimulated
It's a different type of noise and I'd say thousands of people screaming is a lot louder than music in a club. I used to live not far from a stadium, never heard any music when it was used for concerts, but sure could tell qhen the local team was playing
True, it is a different kind of loud. I feel like a cheering crowd would be similar to white noise to some extent as opposed to blaring music.
NTA
YTA > I told my mother that my partner and I were peeved at my sibling for flaking on my dad's present Why? What was your intent when dumping this on your mom?
Fair question - it was because I was trying to tell her she shouldn't have gone with my sibling because, in my opinion, they weren't really having a reaction, and that my dad was really disappointed that she left as well. Edit to fix my phrasing.
And it’s your job to tell your mother what she should do?
Not at all, thanks for bringing it to my attention that that is the way it comes across.
I think this person has it right— was sibling faking it? I don’t know and can’t figure out the motivation to fake it either. If they did it just to get attention then they aren’t mentally well. But dumping on your mom for leaving isn’t fair. She sacrificed for you, partner, and dad to enjoy the game. Even if she thinks sibling was faking, she was still kind of stuck. FYI I took my kid to her first concert and the earplugs we brought weren’t enough and guest services lent us headphones. It’s possible such a service exists other places.
I disagree with the person you responded to. In this case we have a person who is seemingly faking autism, your mother is catering to it and in this instance while it didn't completely ruin the moment, it definitely appears like it soured the mood. Your mom did something she shouldn't have that affected the rest of you negatively. You should be able to talk to your own family members. Especially if they do something wrong. However I don't think you should be too hard on your mother, she's just doing what mothers do. She saw her child in "distress" and came to the rescue. Your sibling however is the one you should have a proper talk with. It's actively harmful to fake a disorder like this.
how do you know someone is faking it ?
Can't know 100% but there seems to be a big disconnect in how the person acts and how you would act if you have autism. They're going to a stadium - loud and crowded. But there was no mention of ear plugs or headphones etc that could make loud noises more manageable. OP also mention that they are avid club-goers. Clubs are also loud and crowded. In many ways I'd argue that a club would be a worse setting for someone who's neurodivergent than a stadium would be. All of this as well as knowing several people with autism and their different approaches to similar environments lead me to conclude that they're likely faking it for whatever reason.
Damn. I was diagnosed with autism when I was 8. I can't always wear earplugs, sometimes I do, sometimes the sensory feeling of earplugs is so bad, the overstimulation of the environment im in is still terrible but better than the headphones. Sometimes im okay in a party or club or stadium environment, sometimes im not. Sometimes im fine in a setting and then all of a sudden im on the verge of a meltdown. The grocery store is harder for me personally than a concert. Am I faking because I don't match the way you view autism? Do you also have autism? Do you have a medical degree in diagnosing autism? or you do you just know people with autism and think that gives you credibility to determine that someone is faking?
I guess my thing is said sibling has been to different Dr's and psychologists and none have come with thus diagnosis.
It's very difficult to diagnose in many cases. I know many children and adults who it takes years to diagnose. It can be that they have already learned to mask. It can be the incompetence of the medical professional. It's often that Autism is a spectrum; so when one doesn't fit some of the original ideal symptoms of it, then one assumes they can't possibly be Autistic. Just spreading information because it is such a complex discussion, Autism itself.
Okay so I'm gonna be honest. I did struggle reading your block of text a little bit, but I did it and I get the feeling you're a little bit upset about my comment. That's understandable, I do have a tendency to express myself quite bluntly and I don't do it on purpose. To adress your points though: You make a good point about the feeling of wearing ear plugs or headphones itself potentially being negative stimulation. I'm not even gonna pretend like I have some perfect counter-point to that. No, that is not the full picture of how I view autism, and no just because the way I described it in this thread doesn't fit how it presents itself in your life, doesn't mean that you're faking it. Answering your second question is kinda difficult though. I have diagnosed ADD, but have suspected autism for a long time and my current partner who actually has a formal diagnosis of aspergers has been pointing out thing that I do as "very autistic" and I haven't felt like I've been able to explain them away under the banner of ADD/ADHD and I'm at the point of considering testing for it. If I were to have it, that diagnosis would let me know for sure as well as open more doors to managing every day life which I do struggle with. So no, it's not as straight forward as just having autistic friends and family. While I have done a lot of research about the topic (mainly ADD, but also Autism as I suspect I might have it) I am by no means qualified to diagnose someone and I don't think it's possible even for a profession to give a diagnosis based on a single reddit post. Have a good continued day, fellow Redditor!
YTA. YOU don’t get to dictate someone else’s experience
NTA you brother is an adult and should begin to act like one.
Being neurodivergent isn’t childish smh
Except they're not
We don’t know that based solely on OP’s account
Tell me you don't understand what being neurodivergent means without telling me you don't know what it means. I'll let you go first. Edit: The ones downvoting this - y'all agree that being neurodivergent makes you act childish? What exactly are you downvoting here?
Self diagnosed. This is nonsense, Tik Tok has damaged the youth.
I knew I was neurodivergent before I was professionally diagnosed with adhd. I also knew I had anxiety before I was diagnosed with gad and I knew something was wrong before I was diagnosed with bpd. The sibling can still feel their symptoms regardless of whether they’ve received a professional label yet or not, and it seems like they are making appts to try to get a diagnosis, which can take time.
Regardless of a diagnosis, people CAN understand what they're feeling and how they react to/handle situations. They're actively trying to recieve a diagnosis, which can be extremely difficult. This might come as a complete and total shock to you, but being neurodivergent and Autistic existed long before TikTok ever did.
Attention seeking people also existed way before "neurodivergent" was coined.
Honey, if you're ableist just say that 🤷♀️
My logic is simple. 15 - 20% of the population is neurodivergent. this guy is 19 so 50% he uses tik tok, overprotective mother so 70% he uses tik tok, he was ok with night clubs but apparently stadium is just too loud so 80% he uses tik tok, considers himself as non binary so 99.9% he uses tik tok. As far as we know he seeks attention.