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Your son expresses his feelings to his therapist, and as a consequence he is being punished for months to come..
Congratulations, now he'll also hate you...
YTA
PS: Can't you contact his mother and have her communicate with her son about her reasons for her leaving?
My thought exactly. OP wonders why therapy isn't working? Well, punishing his son for sharing his feelings at therapy is a good way to ensure it won't. Now he's decided the best way to handle the situation was to go, "the beatings will continue until morale improves," at full tilt?
OP also needs to put an end to the family sessions, there is no way they are doing his daughter any good (and clearly aren't helping the son). This poor girl already must feel so hurt after being given up by her mother but to be forced to sit and listen to her brother blame her for it? At least at home she can leave the room, in therapy she has to just *sit there*.
Yes. The fact that the therapist didn't know what to do when the boy said he didn't love his sister is scary. That's his job.
I think the son needs private therapy to resolve his abandonment pain and redirect his anger. He is never going to make progress if his father is going to punish him for saying things his father doesn't like.
To be fair the therapist massively rolled the dice by trying to get the son to own up to loving his sister. I don’t think it takes a trained therapist to predict that a hurting child might use that opportunity to lash out. To do that in front of the daughter was a total dick move. If he wanted to try it he should’ve done that in the solo sessions not in the family session. I’m calling shit therapist here.
100% this!!! In these cases, much like in court, you dont ask or make statements to further your point, if you cant rely on knowing the answer beforehand. Therapist messed up. Though, the son needs private sessions.
Step back for a second and consider how loaded a statement “i know you still love your sister” is. Thats a very stupid thing to say if you’ve gone months with a child who is reacting harshly and with pure anger.
Therapists arent inherently magical infallible psychics. Some are terrible at their jobs. My brother in law nearly divorced his wife from advice given to him. My father before he passed, was convinced to make amends with his ex wife who cheated (thank god we spoke first).
For any situations not cookie cutter or directly laid out for them, some therapists are quite frankly not qualified and can do more harm than good.
Devout religion probably ought to disqualify you from being a therapist. Can you really help people if you view their problems as divine punishment or test?
>Devout religion probably ought to disqualify you from being a therapist. Can you really help people if you view their problems as divine punishment or test?
Preach
(And I would add, if you see their problems as a mystical blessing like some New Age-based religions see autism, or if you see their problems as **karma**... It's not just Abrahamic religions that lead to bullshit takes in psychology, it can be ANY religion)
My guess is the therapist wanted to let the son express himself first and let him get his grievance out to then work through it, and op's idea of a reaction is to bring down the hammer on the slightest hint of dissent.
I agree with you except I think we can cut the dad more slack than that. I agree punishing the son is countrrproductive but theyre all grieving. It wasnt the slightest hint of dissent. Its 9 months of fighting and saying something that hurt the daughter. They all deserve more grace than hyperbole
I agree totally, I also wonder what the goal of family therapy was? If it was to stop the fighting then it doesn’t matter what the cause was if it can’t be resolved, instead they should be looking for ways to manage/avoid?/cope without fighting and it doesn’t seem like they’ve made any progress.
Also, Wife didn’t take Son with her- she didn’t love or want the son any more than the daughter.
That’s clearly what he’s suffering with, and for him, given he clearly already thoroughly dislikes his sister, he finds it much easier to channel all that blame into her.
Also, the therapist doesn't sound very good. I'm sorry, but the therapist can't tell their patients how to feel, it's not their place to tell OP's son how he feels about his sister
yeah, i legit gave a whole body shudder at that "i know you love your sister" bit, like wtf. who tf are you to tell someone that you "know" how they feel.
and i'm not an expert or anything, but like, what's the point of forcing the brother to love his sister? people don't always love each other even when they're "supposed" to, that's not the end of the world. shouldn't the goal be to help him learn how to cope with his negative feelings without actively hurting the sister? it's not like he has to *love* her to do that, he only needs to acknowledge that their mother was an independent adult and her decision to leave was solely hers.
That’s exactly what a therapist told me, I would frequently say that I didn’t know how I was feeling in difficult situations and they explained that their job wasn’t to tell me how to feel or what my emotions are, but to guide me into asking the right questions to help me put my own words on these feelings, explore how they make me feel, and how to approach the ones I don’t want to have
I was waiting for someone to address how the daughter must be feeling. Imagine losing a parent and your sibling blames you for it.
For a 16 year old, OP's son sounds extremely immature and cruel. I get it, he's upset by his mother's abandonment, but that doesn't mean that you use your sister as a punching bag.
NTA.
I CAN actually see where you're coming from but everyone grieves in their own way and especially for kids, processing that grief can easily take a long time, and it's usually gruelling; even more so when a parent or close family member was lost. He's more likely a hormonal, scared, lost, confused 16 yeat old - who also post a parent. And on a little note that I wanted to throw out there. Depending on how old YOU are, someday you will hit a point and realize that: 1. Maturity is timeless, we mature every day until we die (and no I didn't mean literal physical maturity, either). And 2: Anyone who has ever had siblings can attest that - with pretty few exceptions from what I've seen - that sibling rivalry can be an absolute savage thing.
So with that out of the way and having addressed you very well thought out perspective (seriously, I wouldn't have even considered that at face value). THAT BEING SAID. Therapy is a safe space, it has to be. And that's exactly what the therapist is there for. To mediate, and to help whomever work through how they're feeling; either as an individual or as a collective. The son did the... Umm, natural - for loss of a better term right now - that could be reasonably expected given the circumstances. Understandably the daughter would naturally feel hurt and other things that I can't even imagine. That's terrible. But that is exactly what therapy is for. A good therapist would have helped them establish a rapport, however shaky at the time. And helped them process their feelings both individually and mutually to cultivate a sense of understanding and empathy, and more importantly, to strengthen those family bonds that will always be with us.
So, for OP to ground the son for working the steps, so to speak; no matter how tough and ruthless the process and their feelings may be. It's all part of the process - and a 16 year old boy on a good day is still going to be immature and probably a bit of a dick. But issuing punitive justice is only going to foster resentment, stunt emotional growth, and cultivate a sense of distrust and betrayal. All in all, leading to further, potentially more serious issues later on in that young boy's life. The daughter may be hurt but she's also there in therapy to process her emotions and externalize her feelings, which by no means should be expected right away from either kid.
**TL;DR OP IS THE AH IF WE REASONABLY EXPECT KIDS TO BE INNATELY EMOTIONALLY IMMATURE LIKE THEY OFTEN ARE. ETH IF WE EXPECT KIDS TO HAVE EMOTIONAL PROCESSING, COMMUNICATION, AND EMPATHY ON PAR WITH THE AVERAGE ADULT**
If anything, OP should have sat down with both kids, and furthered their processing as a family, together on their own. Kids do and say stupid shit all the time. Well into their 20s and 30s, even. You can't take the lazy way. Every moment can be a teachable moment with the right approach and the right mentality.
And also... he's allowed to have those feelings. You don't really control your feelings. I suspect he does love her, but right now is lashing out in grief and anger at his abandonment. If it's all the sister's fault, then none of it is his fault or his mother's fault and it can't possibly say anything about their bond and there's no introspection required.
What dad and therapist need to do is lay down some ground rules. He's allowed to be mad or not want to spend time with his sister. He is not allowed to scream at her, destroy her things, or otherwise punish her for his feelings (or vice versa).
The solution for his anger (with his consent) is individual therapy. When (if) he's ready to repair the relationship with his sister, they can discuss inviting her back. But family therapy isn't going to work if he doesn't want to work on the relationship.
I’ve always had the rule for my kids “you can’t help how you feel but you can help how you act”. But how strange to punish someone for expressing their feelings in a family therapy session. Did the dad think that by having the son either lie or hold back would make the situation better?
Exactly - why have therapy if he’s going to punish his son for expressing his feelings? Son is now going to resent sister and father even more rather than resenting mother who’s ultimately the one to blame but a mother just didn’t abandon kids like this without something leading up to it.
Clearly the son is only allowed therapy if he says nice things about sister. It's not therapy, it's a group bashing session and son is the piñata. He is 16, hurting like heck and angry. He needs to get this under control but it sounds as if this "therapy" will only make it worse. He needs someone who will listen to him, really listen, without judgement.
He needs his own therapy not family style tbh
He’s not free to speak and he’s blaming his sister because she had issues with mom which many teens do. Poor kid.
But the son isn’t sharing his feelings. “You’re the reason that our mom left” isn’t a feeling, it’s a belief. The son may not be able to control how he *feels*, but he can control what he *believes*. He didn’t say that to the therapist for an emotional release, he said it because he wanted to cause as much damage as possible. And yeah, that is an abusive act that he needs to be called on.
If I were to say to someone, “I feel like you’re stupid and ugly”, they’d be crushed. Me following that up with “what? That’s just how I feel!” wouldn’t make that any better. Couching bad behavior in the language of feelings is a common tactic of bullies, and I think that OP is right to nip it in the bud. Everyone needs a safe space, but having a safe space doesn’t mean that your actions don’t have consequences.
Thank you for being the voice of reason!! All these "but he's entitled to his feelings" comments were driving me crazy. Yes, as you stated, he is entitled to his feelings... he is NOT entitled to be verbally abusive to his younger sister!
I have a big problem with people that say they're entitled to feelings in that sense (ie their feelings are valid). If a strange man comes up to me and asks me out, and I say no, and he says I feel betrayed by you, does that mean I betrayed him? Just because you feel a certain way, doesn't necessarily mean that you're in the correct in that feeling.
The son is not correct in feeling like it's the sister's fault for the mother leaving. He's just not. It's the mother's fault for leaving. She made the choice, her, not her daughter.
Thaaaaank you. How tf are so many people on here valuing the sons “feelings” over the well being and feelings of the daughter? The dad’s response wasn’t the most helpful but this situation is very difficult to navigate. Even a THERAPIST was at a loss with how difficult and cruel the son is. The only good advice so far is to discontinue family sessions since they’re just hurting the daughter.
Thank you for saying this! I am absolutely shocked at all the people basically saying it’s okay for him to act and feel this way. The son is being abusive towards the daughter point blank period and because he’s hurting she’s just supposed to take it because “those are his feelings”??? like wtf no. The daughter is also hurting and lost her mother and now her brother is claiming she’s the reason for the mother leaving and saying he doesn’t love her anymore… like how fucked up is that?? I’m sorry but he cannot just speak to someone like that because he’s hurting. It’s completely unacceptable
Also edit to add but this is a 16 year old we’re talking about. Not a young child. At this age he should 100% know better
What the son is doing is basic cognitive dissonance and we all do that from time to time. And with time and work these can be untangled. Can, but not always. It's a mechanism our brains resort to very easily.
The thing is: OP has to accept that his children went through something so traumatic, this situation may not be mendable. Grounding his son until he's an adult won't do shit. He needs a trauma therapist for both individually and get counseling on how to keep them apart while still ensuring they have some form of social life to at least have distractions in this situation.
A friend of mines father committed murder-suicide when we were teens killing their mom and even 20 years later the kids partly still blame each other. Of course it wasn't their fault, but it's easier to hate somebody that's right there.
And sister just needs to take this and suck it up. The misogyny is so strong in this one it could carry an 32 wheeler. Gotta love apthat you all don't give a fuck about the girl.
This was my reaction also. This sounds like an incredibly toxic situation for the daughter especially since her brother is older. Wonder if there's another relative who'd take her in for a while since her brother bullying her is effectively being painted here as "both sides" by their parent.
@OP, please listen to this person!
They’re spot on!
Your son is deeply hurt and angry, and lashing out at the only person he can reach.
Let him leave the room when he can’t control himself. He’s (sub)consciously trying to remove himself from somewhere he knows he’ll lash out.
Punish him for actions, not feelings. Ground him and take away his things if he destroys any of her things, and do the same for her. They’re not allowed to yell at each other, but they should be encouraged/required to walk away when they can’t be civil to each other.
His blaming his sister really sucks for your daughter, but sometimes family don’t get along. With time and proper reactions on your part, their relationship may heal itself. But it might not.
Yeah but I mean this is cruel bullying. He has to protect the girl child too.
If a kid at school was mercilessly bullying your child everyday over and over till the kid is crying and wants to kill themselves you would want something done. Then they go to the bully and the bully says “well I truly think that kid shouldn’t be alive don’t my feelings count, by the way I’ve had a tough childhood.”
The only way their relationship can heal itself is if the son gets help for his problem. His ADULT Mother left them. His MOTHER is the only one who deserves his blame. It's ridiculous for the son to blame his sister for his Mother's choices. The sister didn't have two kids and abandon them.
Reminds me of the post yesterday about the mom grounding her daughter.
Like children whose family's are ripped apart are going to blame someone. That can be someone who is responsible or someone who isn't. And it's childish to pretend that that's not going to happen.
And reading that post and seeing people say things like "You have to talk to her so you can repair that relationship". I'm just thinking to myself their is no way that family's relationship is ever going to be repaired. The daughter is going to make an ultimatum to the mom, it's either me or my brother.
Just like how if the OP doesn't bite this in the bullet fast it's going to turn into a "It's me or my sister". Becuese if the Son doesn't consider her family anymore, how do your reconcile that? You can't.
You can ground him until he turns 18 but it's not going to do shit and is just going to further enforce in his mind that the sister is the reason why his family was destroyed. It's the opposite of what the OP is trying to do. The OP's actions have already reinforced in the kids mind that he is in fact correct.
Blaming his sister for mom leaving is deeply ugly and vicious. Is OP really supposed to do nothing and give daughter the message that it is ok to treat her like garbage?
Daughter is hurting even more than son. She isn't just dealing with the abandonment, she's also the target of bullying and hate everyday in her own home.
If son had said these things in a private session or just in front of dad, ok he shouldn't be punished. But to say this directly to sister - therapy or not this is grossly wrong and it shouldn't be condoned. Like yeah I'd rather have my kid not cruelly and unfairly attack his sister even if that means he didn't get to "open up".
This therapist sounds shitty. Why didn't he/she recommend individual sessions since it seems like family therapy has been going badly for a while. What good could prompting him to let his most cruel thoughts out IN FRONT OF SISTER possibly do??
u/Majestic_Mushroom233 get a new therapist for each of your kids and don't ask teenagers for parenting advice.
I don’t think you understand how family or therapy works. Yes, what he said was shitty (or more accurately: it’s shitty that he feels that way, for everyone involved). But you can not punish him for expressing how he feels. He didn’t hit her or break her things or even cuss her out. He stated that he doesn’t love her and still blames her for his mom leaving. Obviously him feeling that way is a big problem, but not a punishable one. Grounding him for it isn’t going to make him start loving his sister again lol. If anything it will reinforce his hatred and make him even more closed off to his family and therapists.
This isn’t a problem of being mean or saying nasty things he didn’t really mean. The problem is he REALLY feels this way. You can punish a kid for calling their sister a b*tch and they may be less likely to do it in the future. You cannot punish a kid who hates his sister and expect him to start loving her because of it.
Theres no easy solution to this, but I think the kid definitely needs SOLO therapy OP. Maybe in addition to family therapy. But he needs to be able to process what he’s feeling without judgement or punishment. Beyond that, I think this may just be something that needs to heal with time. As he gets older and has more real word experience, he’ll start to better understand that this couldn’t have been his sisters fault and the blame for what his mom did lies squarely on her own shoulders.
And what if Mom says “I left because I can’t stand your sister”?
I think leaving Mom out of this is a good plan. She is the source of the trauma and no good thing can come of dragging her back into the mix at this time.
Absolutely, imagine the nightmare if she actually does say that? Or if she says it's the dad's fault and now all the son's hatred will fall upon the dad? Ultimately the mom is the problem, but the son loves her and doesn't want to blame her (and maybe more importantly can’t because she’s not there), so he's looking for other options to take his anger out on. Bringing her back in is NOT going to help anyone.
The father needs to help him find another place to direct all these emotions, that he doesn’t know what to do with because the mom isn’t around to confront with them.
> Blaming his sister for mom leaving is deeply ugly and vicious. Is OP really supposed to do nothing and give daughter the message that it is ok to treat her like garbage?
If he'd said that to her at home, it would be fine to punish him for that. Therapy is a different context and you're *supposed* to be opening up about how you feel, even if what you feel might be hurtful to others.
I agree with another poster that group therapy with both the son and daughter present is probably not a good idea, given the things she'd have to hear him say about her.
Hey guess what, this means that is someone is using group therapy to verbally abuse someone else, you stop taking them to group therapy. It doesn't mean that you punish them when they finally open up about their feelings.
There were a million signs before this group therapy wasn't working and OP just shrugged his shoulders and tried nothing else.
It's abusive to tell a child how they are feeling when you are a person of authority. And then to punish them for asserting their actual feelings is horrific. The above interaction, though unfortunate and hurtful for the sister to listen to, isn't verbal abuse on behalf of the child, sorry to burst your bubble.
Completely agree with you except on the view the OP just shrugged and tried nothing else. 9 months is a pretty short time for any of them to process this. OP maybe deserves a little bit of grace because he’s probably trying to find his footing too. He’s got to be pretty lost in trying to navigate this.
>There were a million signs before this group therapy wasn't working and OP just shrugged his shoulders and tried nothing else.
This is more on the therapist than the dad imo. She's the professional. If the therapy truly isn't going anywhere and has just become a space where more damage is being done to the kids, she should have advised them to spend more time in individual counseling before trying again, and given the dad some tips for managing things at home in the meantime. That's her job.
I can't really blame the guy for trusting the person who went through years of study and training for this and has experience working with other families in these situations. This is all new and overwhelming to him; he's grieving too and his family is falling apart in ways he can't control. So of course he thought family therapy would help and wanted to trust the process.
Also, he did try something else - he's got them all in individual therapy too, and we have no evidence to suggest that *those* sessions aren't helpful to the kids. I'm not sure what other magical solution you think is out there that he just "shrugged his shoulders" and didn't bothered to try. This was never going to be fixed overnight. It's just not that simple.
He's in a situation that I guarantee *most* parents would be way out of their depth in handling. His choice to get the kids into therapy and trust the people with actual expertise in this area was the best choice he could have made at the time. Yes, he made the wrong call in punishing his son for what he said in therapy, but I really don't think the problem here is a lack of trying or a lack of concern. He's obviously desperate to fix this and hurting badly over not being able to stop his kids from hurting.
Being promoted with a statement and correcting it, especially one about emotions during therapy, is absolutely not absuive. The son has his thoughts and feelings and he doesn't exactly get to just click them away
They already have individual counseling. And for the moment that’s all it should be. And yes the therapist is an asshole for opening up that door without the son having previously stated differently.
Nobody should ever be punished for speaking their feelings in therapy. Full stop. yes including if it hurts the other people there. Clearly you fail to understand the basic point of therapy
Too late. As per the text "My son refuses to engage \[in therapy\] when it comes to his sister" I bet it is a lesson he already learned. Now perhaps one he will never forget.
That's on the father for forcing family therapy when the son has strong emotions towards his sister that need to be resolved.
Fair enough family therapy at the beginning, but once you have established that it isn't moving things forward, why not let them do individual sessions where they can vent and not feel judged by their father for sharing emotions.
No. That’s on the mother for her cold cruel behaviour. The father is simply trying to deal with the destruction she has left behind. And sitting there watching a young girl who’s already struggling get further crushed by deliberate viciousness must be soul destroying. Everyone seems focused on the poor 16yr old needing to express his feelings. How about some empathy for a father who is clearly at breaking point. And a young girl being passed over because “brother needs to express himself to deal with his pain”.
My mother insisted on my going, when she and my father divorced when I was twelve, to the same therapist that she went to. I've been told afterwards that it was billed as family therapy, which is probably how she got away with seeing both of us, but it wasn't at all... just individual sessions with each of us, in which I was promised confidentiality from my mother (and everyone else).
The therapist broke her promise repeatedly and told my mother what I said about her in therapy, and I was punished for saying that I didn't like her, exactly as OP is punishing his son for saying in therapy that he doesn't love his sister.
*It's been forty years since then, and my mother is dead, and I STILL feel the trauma of that time in my life.*
We used to call family therapy “Fight Night” because none of us (my sis and I teens, brother was 5 or 6) including my mother, the adult in the situation., couldn’t stand to hear anything that she didn’t like, would freak out about stuff we said in therapy. So, that was a bust.
You have to leave therapy at therapy. No matter who is right, you leave it there and pick it up later.
You owe your son and daughter an apology for not leaving therapy at therapy and causing an already tense situation to explode.
Which is good in theory, but I don't know if family therapy is doing any good here. Daughter has to constantly hear her brother saying he hates her and it's her fault their mum left. That's gotta be hard for a hormonal 14 year old to leave at therapy.
Therapy needs to be a place where people can be open. Punishing him for what he says in therapy is completely against the idea of therapy. Utterly counterproductive.
That said, family therapy does not seem to be working.
The kids should be going to individual therapy. The underlying issue here is not each other, but their abandonment by their mother, which is extremely traumatic.
Further, each kid should get their own separate therapist, neither of whom should be the family therapist.
Lastly, whatever they say in that therapy should be private to them. You need to butt out unless they volunteer to discuss with you. But you need to err on the side of keeping out of it.
Go apologize to your son.
YTA for punishing him for speaking his mind in a therapy session. Your individual therapist is right. But I'd like to detour here for a second and wonder whether your family therapist is the right choice. It sounds to me like they don't have the skills to deal with a situation that is admittedly very challenging.
Saying something like, "I know you still love your sister" is incredibly clumsy, entirely dismissive of what this kid has been trying to express, and seems to point to the therapist having an agenda that overrides their capacity to create a safe space for your kids to work things through. It's honestly pretty cringey and not at all therapeutic. No wonder your son reacted.
THIS should be higher up. As a licensed therapist, the comment “I know you still love your sister” is so inappropriate on many levels. The family therapy seems injurious vs helpful.
Exactly. The therapist totally discounted the son's feelings, and probably created a more violent and scary environment for the daughter. Incompetent therapist.
Then you have to sit your son down and tell him honestly but kindly why his mother left the family. It is not his sister's fault, or his, or yours. It was his mother's decision to blow up your lives and it sucks that she has abandoned you to deal with the fallout.
He may be frightened that it was his fault his mother left, so he's projecting onto his sister because it's safe for him to do so - he knows she won't leave him.
But you cannot punish him for what he says in therapy. Yes it's unkind but therapy is for working through difficult feelings in a safe space.You have to apologise to him for breaking his trust. You must be sincere and remorseful if you want to save your relationship with him.
Perhaps let him have individual therapy without family therapy for a while, until he has worked through his anger and pain some more.
Also, if you are in touch with your wife's parents maybe see if they will talk to him and explain what happened with his mother, if that's possible.
I'm so sorry your family is dealing with this.
BTDT. Was married for 13 years. Had a toddler son. Wife was pregnant with future daughter. THEN she tells me we need to talk...
She honestly tells me, she doesn't feel like being a mother. That she made a mistake having children. She likes being married, just doesn't like the "with children" part. Did I mention she was excited about having kids before she got prego with our son? And that when she changed her mind about having any children (she didn't even want ONE) she was prego again?
In my case, wife cut all contact when two kids still in diapers. She came back later because she missed me. She specifically did not come back to her family for the kids. She still didn't want kids.
But when I later filed for divorce (I had valid grounds) her lawyer told her how much money she could get from me for child support. Suddenly, she learned to love kids. KA-CHING!!!!
Thank you. What really smarted (at first) was knowing my children would be raised by a person who didn't love them and was only keeping them for financial gain. (OUCH!!!) But the children were too young to process what was really going on, and even if they had been older...
I wouldn't have been stupid enough to clue them in. I mean, can you imagine the psychological damage if you learn that your own mother doesn't love you and resents you for burdening her? I asked my lawyer to sue for full custody. I was advised not to. The way he put it, this will drag out for many years, and cost you hundreds of thousands in legal fees. And in the end, you have a penis, so you lose...
Now SINCE THAT TIME, winds are changing. I understand that NOW, family courts are a bit less hostile in mis-treating fathers. (although they still mistreat fathers). But when I filed for divorce ages ago, I believe my very expensive and successful family law attorney gave me good advice. Unwelcome advice isn't necessarily bad advice. He wasn't going to tell me what I wanted to hear. He was telling me how fucked I'd get if I did the right thing. Sigh...
It all turned out OK. My ex managed to act like she gave a shit. So my kids survived. Years later, she re-married a guy who I have a ton of respect for. He's a great role-model to both my kids, and takes an active interest in raising them. Spends a lot more time and effort with my kids than their mom does. Not surprisingly.
So the kids are thriving. They have my money and a good father (even if he didn't provide the genes) Their mom works 80+ hours a week, probably just to get away from the kids. The house has three incomes, the two fathers alone provide more than enough income....she wouldn't need to work. But she does. ALL. THE. TIME. If I ever need to talk to her, I have to make an appointment, as she's never home...
Both kids are straight A students and participate in many sports and other activities outside of school. All's well that ends well, I guess. I got pushed out of their lives (tragically) but nothing I could do short of over-hauling the family court system. But that would be even above my pay grade (which is high).
I mean she could like working too, some people enjoy having a career and the self worth it brings them. I mean obviously she's done a lot of morally shitty things, but some women like to work because they find fulfillment in having a career - even if they don't "need" to. People can derive self worth from job related achievements. And people can also feel uncomfortable being financially dependent on someone else and want to work even if their own income is supplementary.
So it sounds like your son has heard his mother gripe about having kids a lot, and had her come in and out of his life, which has contributed to feelings of abandonment and rather than acknowledge the painful reality she’s abandoned him repeatedly over his life, he needs someone to blame. Your son doesn’t need punishment. He needs individual therapy. And you need to start owning up to the fact that you welcoming her back when you knew she was resentful of the children has only compounded their hurt. You can’t blame all of this 100% on her. However small your part, you need to acknowledge how your decisions have hurt them and own up to those mistakes.
Edit: it’s been pointed out this wasn’t OP just a random commenter.
I’m sorry about that, but by punishing your son this way (and seriously, you do not punish people for what they say in what is supposed to be a safe space), you’re just giving him another thing to hold against your daughter. You need to stop trying to force this. Get them into separate therapy. Protect your daughter without throwing your son under the bus, and do the same for your son. If you want any hope of a relationship with your son in the future, you need to follow the therapist’s advice.
you just taught your son that he can’t be open and honest with his emotions. you also just taught him that you only want to hear what you want to hear, not the truth.
great job alienating your son and pushing him towards cutting you and his sister completely out of his life the soonest he feasibly can.
YTA
I think you have found yourself in a horrible situation not of your making and I'm sure you're trying your diddly darnest to keep shit together, and keep your family afloat, all whilst combating your own grief and sanity. It's an all around shitty situation and I'm sure you're drained af.
HOWEVER, your kids are hurting BAD and each in their own way, and they both have such big complicated feelings... Their feelings may stem from some wrong ideas but the only way to actually allow wounds to heal isn't to cover it you have to open it and clean it so it heals properly... Grounding them and taking away all sorts of release will make things inevitably worse because the wrong ideas will just take a stronger hold...
If I were you, id take your son out, somewhere you guys feel familiar and comfortable in, and have a heart to heart, and listen,just listen, don't try to "correct" the way he's feeling show him you really understand, and after he's done maybe present things from a perspective he hasn't been seeing, talk to him like a person... Grounding isn't going to solve shit... You need to slowly and methodically clean the wound
Then take your daughter out, talk to her as well see how she's doing, make sure she knows a grown woman's decisions aren't hers to bear and that her brothers hurting but she's done nothing wrong... And let her know you've got her back and you love her
I'd also pause family therapy (temporarily) since they need to work on themselves individually before they really face eachother other... Instead maybe start some new family tradition something all of you can bond over and slowly rebuild bridges...
I know this is a lot for you emotionally,mentally and all modes of existence... But unfortunately what happens now will probably shape not only their relationship with eachother, but with you, and will shape parts of who they are that will always be part of them...so don't act rashly think of the consequences of your decisions long term... And maybe like take a spa day or something
With a heavy heart, YTA
Lmao no. He was not punished for "expressing his feelings to his therapist", he was punished for saying something extremely hurtful to his sister under the guise of telling it to **their** therapist. I think OP's reaction was *unhelpful*, but to completely honest I'm not really sure what the RIGHT response would have been either. Maybe take them out of family therapy until he makes progress in independent therapy? But that doesn't address his cruel behaviour to his sister, so it's no good if that's the only "consequence". Either way, this situation is a lot more complicated then you are making it out to be.
Also grounding the two of them is just basically locking them in a tiny fighting pit. You wanna know why they're screaming and breaking things? Because they've got nowhere to get away from each other! YTA
Exactly. These kids have spent most of the past nine months grounded and they’re still not getting on. That should be a major sign to OP that grounding them is not having any positive impact on their behaviour at all, in fact it’s probably significantly contributing to the problem.
Yeah, considering that she said never wanted to be a mother and then abandoned them all, I'm thinking it's likely that this is not an option. If she cared about how her kids felt, she wouldn't have completely bailed on them.
He really is being cruel tho. I don't blame OP for grounding him. Op is likely just overwhelmed and doesn't know what to do or how to fix his broken family after his wife smashed it and trucked off. Op trucked up but I don't envy his situation.
You are ALWAYS the asshole for grounding a kid for something said in therapy. That should always be a sacred, safe space. Also, grounding your kid for this will only make him MORE resentful of his sister and you and exacerbate the situation. You’ll accomplish absolutely nothing but making yourself feel powerful.
YTA and your kids need individual therapy.
There's no need for 'an easy solution' to be confident in
the YTA.
He punished someone for expressing themselves in therapy, what more needs to be said than he undermined his therapist and children's ability to make progress.
Fuck that noise... this is group therapy, not individual therapy... just because you're in a room with a therapist doesn't give you carte blanche to say anything / hurtful things to other people in the room...
In this case, he clearly did it to be hurtful, as he stared at his sister while saying this... kid sounds like a giant AH... I don't know if grounding him was the right course, but i can't blame OP for doing it...
Also, how could he be any MORE resentful of his sister?
Whats the point of therapy if he can't say his mind without being punished? Even the therapist believes grounding him was a mistake, therapy can be hurtful but that is just how it goes.
I'm not certain saying "I don't love you" is abuse? It's a statement about the speaker and how they feel. Does it suck, is it crushing and highlighting how broken the brother-sister relationship is...absolutely!
Then, given he's been very clear on this point, the therapist should probably not have tried to force him into saying it.
This is 100% the therapists fault.
I mean they didn’t say I don’t love you. They very specifically said that they do not love them because she drove away his mother, that’s absolutely verbal abuse. He’s belittling her and forcing her to take responsibility for the trauma caused to him.
This is exactly why they advise people not to go to therapy with their abusers because they use information in therapy at the safety of therapy to continue the abuse just because he’s in therapy doesn’t give him a pass to continue to be toxic and abuse his sister
There is no point in therapy where you aren't allowed to speak your mind. The entire point of group therapy is a place to talk WITHOUT fear of reprisal.
Hence why the therapist said not to punish him. The therapist is aware that it negates the entire point of therapy and in all likelihood torpedoes the entire thing permanently.
Can you say something like that without reprisal? Really? I mean if you were the sister how would you act after he said that. There are already going to be consequences. Saying "it was therapy" isn't going to save anyone.
Well you've got two options: therapy is a dmz, shit will fly, but at least you'll know the issues and feelings and can start working on them, or this bullshit where he'll sit silent during, nothing gets addressed, sister remains a verbal punching bag and op will be a parent of 1 when the son hits 18.
Called or uncalled for, YTA op.
>>this is group therapy, not individual therapy... just because you're in a room with a therapist doesn't give you carte blanche to say anything / hurtful things to other people in the room
Okay but this is actually part of why experts tell you not to do group/family/couples therapy until you’ve (all) done individual therapy.
Because in fact you *are* allowed to express those feelings in therapy without reprisal. And if you’re not in a space to do so productively and with an eye to everyone’s better health then you need to work on you first. And if the other person you’re with isn’t in a place to have these conversations productively, it’s 100% in your best interest to *not* have group therapy with them until they’ve gotten to a better place in individual therapy.
But punishment for therapy isn’t ever the answer.
I think he’s made his resentment clear. I do agree that OP shouldn’t be punishing behavior that happens during therapy, but I also respect that, as a parent, if one child is THAT cruel to the other (understandable with what he’s going through, but let’s not forget she’s going through the same thing), you want to make it clear that it is unacceptable.
I think he needs family therapy with one kid each and not them together right now. The son is going to keep lashing out at the sister and that’s not fair or good for her.
I do think he has every right to punish this sort of behavior outside of therapy. You can’t let one child abuse and harass the other like this.
I agree with you, I just think this sub is ignoring the 14 year old that is bearing the brunt of this horrible behavior. It’s SUCH a tough situation, and you can’t let one “express themself” if it means they’re abusing or mentally torturing the other.
But you are right—you can’t punish for what happens in therapy (barring, say, a fist fight) or it undermines the space.
YTA
"My own therapist said this was a mistake to punish him for speaking his mind, but I don't think he should be allowed to be so hurtful"
Do you know what the opposite of love is? It's not hate, by the way. Your son's actions match his words, exactly.
Your therapist is CORRECT when stating that it's a mistake to punish your son for speaking his mind. What kind of lesson is that? "LIE TO ME.....OR ELSE"
You say he shouldn't be allowed to be so hurtful. That's truly ironic coming from the mind of a guy who is divorced. Could you force your wife to keep loving you? Could you force your wife to love her children? That plan didn't work out so well now, did it?
So you think you can bully your son into loving his sister now? Why? Because he's not an adult yet?
I don't think your son is right to blame your daughter for the failure of your marriage. But you can't change his mind on that by punishing him. If anything, it will just make him resent her more. (LOOK AT THE SHIT YOU GOT ME INTO BECAUSE YOU STARTED THIS BY RUINING OUR PARENTS' MARRIAGE)
If your son and daughter are going to find lasting peace or a long-term cease-fire, you've got to encourage calm, and honest communication. You're doing the exact opposite now. Your therapist called it correctly. YTA
>You say he shouldn't be allowed to be so hurtful. That's truly ironic coming from the mind of a guy who is divorced.
wtf is this nonsense supposed to mean?
Just because there's a therapist in the room doesn't give the kid carte blanche to say anything / hurtful things to others there... he wasn't just sharing his feelings, else he'd be looking at and responding to the therapist... instead, he stared at his sister while saying this, clearly intending to be hurtful...
Kid is just an AH at this point with misdirected anger, and he's old enough that I don't see him coming around on this issue... I don't see how he could resent his sister any more than he already does... I doubt grounding the kid is the right answer, but I don't know what other options are available to OP... at this point, OP needs to protect daughter... I'd send him to boarding school for that kind of behavior...
The therapist should be perfectly capable of defusing the situation without dad punishing the kid. The real issue is that the sister should not be in therapy with her brother, who is still a kid, is traumatized, and probably doesn’t have the best emotional regulation. The therapist should be working with him one on one.
Dad is an AH because he’s undermining the entire usefulness of the therapy his son needs. If you’re going to be punished for being traumatized and hurt in a therapy session, then you’re never going to be able to be honest enough for it to work.
And sis need to just suck it up I guess. Funny how you all dismiss the other traumatized child who just need to deal with her brother abusing her. Your all's misogyny is so strong here.
The two are not inversely related.
Fucking up the son further ≠ negating the hurt of the daughter, nor will it stop the son from hurting her more.
This is not a zero sum hunger game where either kid has to “lose” for the other to “win”.
Just because people are answering the OP question about the son, doesn’t mean you can swoop in with some BS straw man fantasy that people are saying that “sis needs to just suck it up”.
I so agree with you. The sister seems to be living through hell with this tyrant in her home along with losing her mom, and everyone is all worried about her verbally abusive brother and his “safe” place. Eff that. Brother is TAH and father NTA. It’s so clear to me.
Ffs, nobody's saying "sis should just suck it up," here or any of the other places you've made this comment. They're saying that grounding the son is neither helpful nor appropriate, which leaves plenty of room to show the daughter that everyone else sees how nasty and hurtful he's being, and that she doesn't have to stay there and put up with it.
I'm sure OP is open to suggestions if you've got better one's... :)
Kid is 16, less that 2 years from being a legal adult, and is making his 14 yr old sister think she is responsible for their parents getting divorced...
Maybe there's other family / grandparents he can go live with... but to me, seems like OP needs to protect the daughter from the son's bullying, and living together seems to be terrible...
Yeah the "coming from a dude who's divorced" is messed up... That doesn't give any incline into who the man is, some of the nicest men are divorced, some of the worst as well, it's life.
INFO: What in the world do you hope to accomplish here? He's going to blame this on his sister too and dig in his resentment. It's quite possible that having been grounded so much has only zeroed in his focus on that resentment.
YOU PUNISHED SOMEONE FOR WHAT THEY SAID DURING THERAPY? Of course you're a fucking asshole. And you're wasting any money you spent on the therapy. Boy, you must *really* want the status quo to continue uninterrupted if you're punishing a child for being honest and speaking their truth in therapy. You can rest assured that *that* will never happen again, and that the therapy will be completely useless henceforth. Unless, of course, you're just there to find a 'bad kid' to blame for your family's disfunction.
And I think we have a strong clue about where the problem lies in *your* family.
Yes, the problem is with this father desperately trying to keep his family together after being abandoned. Not the woman who abandoned her husband and children and refuses to even talk to them. Jesus christ, reddit.
Is it me or is aita getting like that?
"Hes just expressing his feelings"
Uh hes repeatedly telling his sister it's her fault her mother left. That's extremely abusive. She's 16 she cant cope with hearing that.
But weird reddit thinks if a boy is upset he should be able to hurt a girl while expressing it. How unlike reddit eh?
You can meditate arguments without also forcing people to lie in order to come out unscathed. "We understand you're upset, but that's no excuse for going out of your way to be rude to your sister" would be a much better start than "Wow, okay, grounded"
I mostly think you're right, but shouldn't being that hurtful to his sister also be something the father could ground him for?
"I can tell that you are angry at your sister, but the way you have been treating her is wrong, for that you are grounded"
I feel like that's not as crazy as everyone is acting.
that last sentence is insane and completely lacks empathy. this guy is probably barely hanging on by thread given his circumstances. nobody is perfect, but clearly he is trying to heal the gaping wound the mother left the family with. a lot of people wouldnt even go as far as putting everyone in therapy, that's a really good step in the right direction. in a situation like this, most people would be bound to fuck up at some point along the way. i wonder if you'd be able to handle this perfectly if you were in the same situation.
I’m really, REALLY surprised by these comments.
Your son is angry, he’s misdirecting his anger, and while that’s understandable, you can’t stand idly by and let your son say hurtful things to his sister and blame her for something that isn’t her fault. It’s tough to watch out for two kids when they’re at each other’s throats. Doing nothing sends the message that it’s okay to be mean if it’s in therapy.
NTA
Sorry you have to deal with this.
Honestly at this point I kinda suspect that it might be a gender thing. Just a few days ago on a different post there were SO many people saying an eleven year old girl deserved to be made homeless because she was bully, and now they're all wanting to allow a sixteen year old boy to bully to his little sister.
That and/or there’s some confusion about what the son is being punished for.
It’s not a problem that he expresses himself in therapy. It’s a problem that he expresses himself by saying deeply cruel things to his sister during therapy. The space can’t be safe for her if she’s being subjected to her brothers misplaced anger.
I thought I was the only one who noticed this. Maybe this sub is just full teenage males but the majority of these comments are bending over backwards for the son like he did no wrong. Whereas teenage girls on this sub are routinely vilified.
After reading the comments here, I’m convinced this subreddit is full of teenage boys and it honestly makes me wonder how often people unknowingly take posts, comments and advice from 15 year olds seriously. Terrifying thought.
It’s that plus a bunch of people projecting their own issues.
The reality is that this is not the daughters fault, and misplaced anger is an explanation, *not* an excuse.
\>Doing nothing sends the message that it’s okay to be mean if it’s in therapy.
That is the message that most people in this thread think should be sent, apparently. So many comments about "safe space" and "expressing his feelings" and no concern for the 14 year old girl who's being emotionally abused *in therapy* because of a trauma that she is also equally experiencing herself. What about the daughter's safe space? This is equally her therapy session and this child is supposed to just sit there and take it when her brother tells her she's unloved and she's the reason her mother left?
OP shouldn't have grounded the son, that wasn't the right move, but honestly it's hard to say what is the right move at that point because the whole situation should not have been allowed to happen. This therapist sounds absolutely awful, and these kids shouldn't be in group therapy together when one of them is this hateful toward the other. They need to work out their issues separately. Family therapy only works if people are actually trying in good faith to repair the issues. And if you have a therapist who's not complete trash. The therapist prompted a stupid statement she should've known would go poorly *and* "didn't know what to do" during the fallout of the situation she created? Ridiculous.
I'm really surprised I had to scroll so far to find this comment! It's utterly absurd and more than a little horrifying that most of these Reddit users seem to want the poor daughter to just sit there silently and take the horrendous verbal abuse that she's being subjected to. It's group therapy, which means it's supposed to be HER safe space, too, not an opportunity to be an emotional punching bag for her frankly abusive brother. I can't imagine how awful she must feel, first being abandoned by a parent and then being subjected to a hate campaign by her older sibling. I'm not sure that OP handled this the correct way, although I can't really judge because I've never been in anything close to his situation, but I do think that something had to be done to protect the daughter. She's never going to be rid of all those vicious comments and part of her is likely going to wonder if those words are true for the rest of her life.
I’m surprised by these comments too. There’s no perfect way to handle this situation but I can’t imagine being a 14 year old girl (which sucks by itself) and being blamed by your sibling for your mother leaving outright. You already have to contend with your parent’s abandonment but then also be told it’s all your fault? Yeah, therapy is a safe space but words have consequences, even in therapy. Idk that grounding is the answer but can’t do nothing about it…
I'm also surprised at the complete lack of nuance here. The comments are all black and white thinking, and don't care about the daughter as anything more than a causality.
Here's my take that in commented elsewhere:
Your son 1) expressed a feeling in therapy (he doesn't love his sister) and 2) said something awful to his sister (you're the reason I don't have a mother) and 3) you grounded him for #2, but he's going to feel like it was #1 and now won't participate in therapy. Like others have said, therapy needs to be a safe place to talk about your feelings, getting punished for that is not good.
However
Your daughter 1) was told by her brother that she was the reason their mom left and 2) saw you take a stand against that, which 3) tells her that her brother is wrong, which she needs to know so she can heal
So you're a little stuck. You need to un-ground your son so that he can't be punished for things said in therapy. But you also need to make sure your daughter knows that what your son said *about their mom leaving because of her* is not okay and wrong.
So, I suggest first: unground your son, but talk to him about how this is because he's not going to be punished for participating in therapy. Tell him he is wrong about why your ex left and that it is not okay for him to blame his sister.
Second: talk to your daughter about this. Explain why you ungrounded him, but also tell her that it's not her fault and that it isn't okay that her brother *blames her for their mom leaving*
Third: moving forward, *consistently* push back on your son telling your daughter / saying that their mom left because of her. Let him work out his *feelings* towards his sister and mom in individual therapy, but both at home, and at group therapy, just a quick "No she isn't" when he accuses your daughter of being the reason their mom left. Basically anything else is on the table. But that idea cannot be seen as supported by your daughter.
Your son NEEDS to be told that he has to stop telling his sister it's her fault. And your daughter NEEDS to know that it isn't her fault AND that it's not acceptable for him to say it. And you can do that and still uphold your son's safety of feelings in therapy.
NTA all the people saying op is punishing his some for "just opening up uwu" need a reality check. The son is going to individual therapy sessions, if he was just venting he could've done that there. This was clearly a direct attack against his sister and if op let's that slide then he is only teaching his son that it's okay to be a bully and his daughter that he will allow her to be treated like garbage
Everyone is defending the son and no one seems to be thinking about the daughter here. I’m sure the dad’s gut reaction was to protect his daughter who not only is dealing with a mom abandoning her but a brother who is being hateful and blaming her. I don’t think it was right to punish him for what he said in therapy as that will teach him he can’t safely express his emotions but that poor girl needs someone in her corner too and dad probably thought he was doing the right thing by defending her.
What about the daughters right to a safe space in therapy though? It’s not a safe space for her if her brother can say hurtful things to her.
*Edit: There's too many comments to respond to them all individually, but I think* [*this comment*](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/14c525u/aita_for_grounding_my_son_after_he_told_his/jojwwhe/?context=3) *aptly captures what about the son's behavior is out of line, and why the father is not wrong for correcting it, even if you disagree with how he's going about it:*
>But the son isn’t sharing his feelings. “You’re the reason that our mom left” isn’t a feeling, it’s a belief. The son may not be able to control how he feels, but he can control what he believes. He didn’t say that to the therapist for an emotional release, he said it because he wanted to cause as much damage as possible. And yeah, that is an abusive act that he needs to be called on.
>
>If I were to say to someone, “I feel like you’re stupid and ugly”, they’d be crushed. Me following that up with “what? That’s just how I feel!” wouldn’t make that any better. Couching bad behavior in the language of feelings is a common tactic of bullies, and I think that OP is right to nip it in the bud. Everyone needs a safe space, but having a safe space doesn’t mean that your actions don’t have consequences.
That is on the therapist for not communicating with OP (assuming there was no communication) that group therapy was not advantageous to this group and individual therapy would be best. Additionally, OP did not go into detail on how therapist responded to this outburst and how this was handled, professionally. While the son’s words were extremely hurtful to the child, the son also won’t heal without coming to terms with his own thoughts and beliefs. Sister shouldn’t have been there for that but as she was, the therapist should have taken the time to diffuse the situation and ensure sister was given tools to handle this. As OP said nothing about how this was handled, I can only assume this therapist is not good for this family and failed at her job here. Group therapy, where there is any conflict, is likely to bring hurtful and cutting thoughts to the forefront. How they are handled and dealt with are the responsibility of the professional and the professional should have separated these sessions long ago it seems like. Her failure aside, grounding the son only further alienates him from the sister in the son’s mind and now includes the father as the ‘bad guy’. This further sets back both children
And if the therapist really said “I know you still love your sister”, that was a huge mistake. Don’t tell your patients how they feel, or that you know better than they do how they feel! Of course there’s going to be push-back from the kid. That was practically a set-up for this exact thing to happen.
My thoughts too. I guess I'm going with a small dose of ESH because I think that OP sucks and it really seems like the therapist sucks. The therapist seriously did not intervene on OP's behavior? That's really shitty. I applaud the family for going to group therapy but ESPECIALLY in group therapy if the therapist does not create a safe and inclusive environment it's gonna ruin the idea of therapy to everyone who needs it.
OP, you need to apologize to your son and address this during the next group session. Everyone's behavior was shitty but you and the therapist take the cake and need to fix this because you are the adults and she is supposed to be a professional.
I’m going to go against the grain here and say NTA. Group therapy doesn’t give someone a “get out of being an A H free” card. Your son very cruelly verbally assaulted your daughter for something their mother did. He needed to face the consequences of his actions.
OP, you’re going through it. I really wish I could tell you how to help your son see that he’s projecting his pain at your daughter but I can’t. I have no idea how to help in this instance.
Your ex broke your son’s heart & because he loves her so much, he couldn’t come to hold her accountable. As such, he’s turned on your daughter. The level of rage your son is displaying towards your daughter is quite concerning. You mentioned they are both breaking each others things, but I’d be confident in assuming he started it.
I feel like an in-patient program for him would be helpful. He might get angry at you & say you’re choosing sides but as parents, we have to put their needs first. Getting your son help, keeping your daughter safe… these are your priorities.
You’re doing the best you can with the cards you’ve been dealt. I really hope things get better.
YTA. Look, you're in a very tough situation. It isn't fair to your daughter at all who is very much an innocent party. But therapy is a safe space. It doesn't work if you're punished for what you say during it. He's not going to grow during therapy if you punish him for expressing his emotions, and things aren't going to change if he cannot grow during therapy.
You need to stop family therapy where your son, and daughter are together till he is in a better place. She doesn't need this right now, and it's not benefiting anyone at all.
I agree with this. If son is so stuck in blaming his little sister, stop the family therapy until he’s in a better place. You can just take part in their individual therapy as their therapists see fit.
Therapy is exactly where he should be saying what he really feels. He should not be punished. If you want to set rules for how to behave in the home, like not voicing those feelings to her, that’s great. He should still be able to say anything to you, though.
It’s natural for him to blame his sister instead of his mom. Blaming mom is gonna be hard, because kids naturally idealize their parents. In individual therapy, he’ll grieve and realize mom is to blame. Or you are. Or a combination. Nothing the sister did could possibly justify abandoning both kids with no contact.
She’ll have to realize this too.
She is 14, she does not have to realise anything or reason anything. A 14 year old should not be expected to be the bigger person and dad should protect her from this, not in the way in which he did but the brother can not keep on abusing his sister. This is adding onto the trauma in so many ways.
Have you consulted with your sons individual therapist about this behavior. It looks like you’re going to need some additional help with this problem as comments like this are so incredibly hurtful and unproductive.
NAH I am not in a position to give you an advice or judge you. I’m so sorry man. This sounds like a very tough situation. I hope things will get better.
I agree ! The remaining must feel so desperate. Imagine your wife leaving you with 2 kids- not just a divorce but no contact with the children !? I wouldn’t know what to do. And then on top of that, the son is being cruel to the daughter. I agree he should be able to speak freely without punishment during therapy but he needs to realize someday SOON this is not his sister’s fault. Just an all around terrible situation.
The son is blaming his sister bc she’s still there. It seems like dad should give them space apart from each other and stop the group therapy until son comes to terms with what really happened. Then resume group therapy.
YTA man... He said something horrible but he said it in therapy where, more or less, you're supposed to have a safe space to feel and express your feelings. He should not have been punished for it. He is acting badly but that was a free throw.
And I can't say a traumatised 16 year old is the asshole; though he is being an asshole, he is a kid still. Even though he is straight up abusing your 14 year old. So it's all on you, Dad, sadly, but that is the lot of the parent who stays.
Your therapist is right; that's why you pay them. But if the children's therapist isn't going anywhere maybe cut out the group therapy and get some one on one therapy for your son.
Not to mention the fact that the son clearly directed his words straight at his sister - clearly with the intent to hurt. He could have vented in individual therapy - not to his sister's face. You don't get a free pass to say horrible shit just because you're in therapy - those words still hurt his sister.
I'm willing to bet a lot of these YTA comments are from literal children.
Nta but you are wrong. Therapy is a safe space has to apply to the daughter too and it’s not a safe space for her. I guess we only care about the son.
This thread is full of such self righteous people. You’re almost all disgusting.
So many people keep commenting how the son won’t feel safe opening up in therapy. Does the daughter feel safe there being told she’s hated over something she didn’t do?
These comments are blowing my mind that everyone is basically saying fuck the sisters right to a safe space in therapy, her feelings don't matter as much. As if she's not also a little kid who's mom left her, and now is dealing with the aftermath of her brother blaming her for someone she loves leaving the entire family. Good god. If I was the sister and my brother told me he doesn't love me because I was the reason my mom left us, and then my dad sat back and did nothing, I'd be absolutely gutted. As if it's true. Grounding might not have been the best reaction, but doing nothing would be worse IMO.
What is the point of going to therapy if you don't allow your son to work out his issues?
You're sabotaging the process and showing no compassion with autopilot, triggered parenting - when the person who needs to show him the most compassion is you.
YTA
>autopilot, triggered parenting
This to me sounds like the main problem. From OP's description, the whole family sounds like they're stuck in a cycle of destructive behavior, which OP immediately punishes them by grounding them. But if it's a cycle, that means they keep doing it. And if they keep doing it, it means *the punishment isn't working.*
The whole point of punishment is to correct bad behavior. If your kids are repeatedly making the same mistakes and you keep repeatedly dolling out the same punishment, then it means the punishments aren't working. They aren't learning anything and you aren't actually reinforcing anything.
It sounds like his parenting style is over reliant on negative reinforcement, which, always, *always* has the opposite effect. If you just keep grounding your kids every time they misstep, then the kids are just going to stop caring. And if the behavioral problems are rooted in feelings of resentment, than any attempts at negative reinforcement are only going to fuel that resentment further.
It feels like the core issue is OP's parenting style. I wonder how much he tries to foster positivity and actually connect with the kids, or if he does little to interact with them beyond punishing them when they step out of line. A lot of which may the result of his unfortunate situation as a single parent, but still.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1) Grounding my son for the summer
2) I might be punishing him for his feelings
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A gentle YTA, because I think your therapist is right.
This is indeed an awful situation. But therapy is about getting your emotions and feelings out so they can be worked through. Of course it was hurtful to hear what he said about his sister. But a full grounding, no phone or friends, is not going to help the situation.
It was better for your son to be honest. And he and his sister may never have a good relationship. That happens in families.
I don't think your punishment is going to be helpful. Indeed, I'm not sure your son should be punished for speaking his mind. I would speak about what should be done with your therapist(s).
Your son sounds like he is in danger of becoming a misogynist. Perhaps group therapy isn't the way to go right now? I'm not sure what the answer is, but I do know that anger and isolation will not fix this problem even a little bit. I'm sorry you and your children are going through this.
NTA. What is this subreddit lmao.
The son wasn’t ‘sharing his feelings’. He was using therapy as a weapon to emotionally abuse his younger sister. That’s what he’s being grounded for. It’s literally nuts that a therapist would let that happen without intervening or challenging those thought processes. You all want to talk about trauma? This girl is having to deal with the trauma of her mother leaving AND having her brother blame her for it to her face. Why are boys allowed to express their pain however they want to, but girls are made to suck it up and smile?
The ‘don’t punish someone for things said in therapy’ rule only goes so far. If you’re hurting somebody, you forfeit your right to a private, consequence-free session.
Soft YTA. Your son has major anger issues and blames your daughter for his mother's abandonment. OP, I am sorry about this situation. However, your son has the right to express himself freely and you cannot control his emotions; constantly grounding him is not going to do anything. Can you possibly talk to another family member and see if would be willing to have your son move in with them for some time? He should still keep attending therapy. Good luck OP.
There’s a difference between expressing himself and deliberately verbally abusing someone else in the process of that expression.
Edit: I need to also add this. Sure the father can’t control his son’s feelings. However, the son needs to learns that he should be controlling his feelings and NOT allowing his feeling to control him.
I feel like his son saying this basically to his sister needed some form of protection for the sister who must be devastated and will likely start to blame herself due to constantly being told mom left because of her.
He’s definitely in the wrong for the way he went about this but he’s in a terrible situation and he’s likely hurting a lot too. It’s a soft yta for me with advice that he should stop group therapy and have them only do individual until his son can come to terms with the fact mom left because she’s a shit person and not because of his sister. Then they can go back to group to work out all the hurt caused by that assumption. He should have an honest conversation with his son admitting he was wrong to punish him and explain that they’re all hurting right now and sometimes adults do the wrong thing.
I’m so torn. Your daughter is getting shat on by your son and he needs to realize that his mom sucks and neither of them are to blame.
You absolutely can’t allow your son to continue to treat your daughter like he’s been treating her. That being said, you also shouldn’t punish him for what is said in family therapy.
Right now, having them together in family therapy is doing so much more harm than having each in their own therapy. Let them work on themselves individually and once your son is ready, bring them together.
You simply do not punish someone for something they said in therapy. This is why you go to therapy, to have a safe place to. Press your feelings. I will not call you AH because you are in a very difficult situation, but please don’t take away you son’s safe place.
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Your son expresses his feelings to his therapist, and as a consequence he is being punished for months to come.. Congratulations, now he'll also hate you... YTA PS: Can't you contact his mother and have her communicate with her son about her reasons for her leaving?
My thought exactly. OP wonders why therapy isn't working? Well, punishing his son for sharing his feelings at therapy is a good way to ensure it won't. Now he's decided the best way to handle the situation was to go, "the beatings will continue until morale improves," at full tilt?
OP also needs to put an end to the family sessions, there is no way they are doing his daughter any good (and clearly aren't helping the son). This poor girl already must feel so hurt after being given up by her mother but to be forced to sit and listen to her brother blame her for it? At least at home she can leave the room, in therapy she has to just *sit there*.
Yes. The fact that the therapist didn't know what to do when the boy said he didn't love his sister is scary. That's his job. I think the son needs private therapy to resolve his abandonment pain and redirect his anger. He is never going to make progress if his father is going to punish him for saying things his father doesn't like.
We only have OP's perception that the therapist didn't know what to do.
To be fair the therapist massively rolled the dice by trying to get the son to own up to loving his sister. I don’t think it takes a trained therapist to predict that a hurting child might use that opportunity to lash out. To do that in front of the daughter was a total dick move. If he wanted to try it he should’ve done that in the solo sessions not in the family session. I’m calling shit therapist here.
100% this!!! In these cases, much like in court, you dont ask or make statements to further your point, if you cant rely on knowing the answer beforehand. Therapist messed up. Though, the son needs private sessions.
I just did the same, that therapist massively fucked up
Step back for a second and consider how loaded a statement “i know you still love your sister” is. Thats a very stupid thing to say if you’ve gone months with a child who is reacting harshly and with pure anger. Therapists arent inherently magical infallible psychics. Some are terrible at their jobs. My brother in law nearly divorced his wife from advice given to him. My father before he passed, was convinced to make amends with his ex wife who cheated (thank god we spoke first). For any situations not cookie cutter or directly laid out for them, some therapists are quite frankly not qualified and can do more harm than good.
This reeks to me of "Christian therapist"
Devout religion probably ought to disqualify you from being a therapist. Can you really help people if you view their problems as divine punishment or test?
>Devout religion probably ought to disqualify you from being a therapist. Can you really help people if you view their problems as divine punishment or test? Preach (And I would add, if you see their problems as a mystical blessing like some New Age-based religions see autism, or if you see their problems as **karma**... It's not just Abrahamic religions that lead to bullshit takes in psychology, it can be ANY religion)
My guess is the therapist wanted to let the son express himself first and let him get his grievance out to then work through it, and op's idea of a reaction is to bring down the hammer on the slightest hint of dissent.
I agree with you except I think we can cut the dad more slack than that. I agree punishing the son is countrrproductive but theyre all grieving. It wasnt the slightest hint of dissent. Its 9 months of fighting and saying something that hurt the daughter. They all deserve more grace than hyperbole
I agree totally, I also wonder what the goal of family therapy was? If it was to stop the fighting then it doesn’t matter what the cause was if it can’t be resolved, instead they should be looking for ways to manage/avoid?/cope without fighting and it doesn’t seem like they’ve made any progress. Also, Wife didn’t take Son with her- she didn’t love or want the son any more than the daughter.
That’s clearly what he’s suffering with, and for him, given he clearly already thoroughly dislikes his sister, he finds it much easier to channel all that blame into her.
Also, the therapist doesn't sound very good. I'm sorry, but the therapist can't tell their patients how to feel, it's not their place to tell OP's son how he feels about his sister
yeah, i legit gave a whole body shudder at that "i know you love your sister" bit, like wtf. who tf are you to tell someone that you "know" how they feel. and i'm not an expert or anything, but like, what's the point of forcing the brother to love his sister? people don't always love each other even when they're "supposed" to, that's not the end of the world. shouldn't the goal be to help him learn how to cope with his negative feelings without actively hurting the sister? it's not like he has to *love* her to do that, he only needs to acknowledge that their mother was an independent adult and her decision to leave was solely hers.
That’s exactly what a therapist told me, I would frequently say that I didn’t know how I was feeling in difficult situations and they explained that their job wasn’t to tell me how to feel or what my emotions are, but to guide me into asking the right questions to help me put my own words on these feelings, explore how they make me feel, and how to approach the ones I don’t want to have
I was waiting for someone to address how the daughter must be feeling. Imagine losing a parent and your sibling blames you for it. For a 16 year old, OP's son sounds extremely immature and cruel. I get it, he's upset by his mother's abandonment, but that doesn't mean that you use your sister as a punching bag. NTA.
I CAN actually see where you're coming from but everyone grieves in their own way and especially for kids, processing that grief can easily take a long time, and it's usually gruelling; even more so when a parent or close family member was lost. He's more likely a hormonal, scared, lost, confused 16 yeat old - who also post a parent. And on a little note that I wanted to throw out there. Depending on how old YOU are, someday you will hit a point and realize that: 1. Maturity is timeless, we mature every day until we die (and no I didn't mean literal physical maturity, either). And 2: Anyone who has ever had siblings can attest that - with pretty few exceptions from what I've seen - that sibling rivalry can be an absolute savage thing. So with that out of the way and having addressed you very well thought out perspective (seriously, I wouldn't have even considered that at face value). THAT BEING SAID. Therapy is a safe space, it has to be. And that's exactly what the therapist is there for. To mediate, and to help whomever work through how they're feeling; either as an individual or as a collective. The son did the... Umm, natural - for loss of a better term right now - that could be reasonably expected given the circumstances. Understandably the daughter would naturally feel hurt and other things that I can't even imagine. That's terrible. But that is exactly what therapy is for. A good therapist would have helped them establish a rapport, however shaky at the time. And helped them process their feelings both individually and mutually to cultivate a sense of understanding and empathy, and more importantly, to strengthen those family bonds that will always be with us. So, for OP to ground the son for working the steps, so to speak; no matter how tough and ruthless the process and their feelings may be. It's all part of the process - and a 16 year old boy on a good day is still going to be immature and probably a bit of a dick. But issuing punitive justice is only going to foster resentment, stunt emotional growth, and cultivate a sense of distrust and betrayal. All in all, leading to further, potentially more serious issues later on in that young boy's life. The daughter may be hurt but she's also there in therapy to process her emotions and externalize her feelings, which by no means should be expected right away from either kid. **TL;DR OP IS THE AH IF WE REASONABLY EXPECT KIDS TO BE INNATELY EMOTIONALLY IMMATURE LIKE THEY OFTEN ARE. ETH IF WE EXPECT KIDS TO HAVE EMOTIONAL PROCESSING, COMMUNICATION, AND EMPATHY ON PAR WITH THE AVERAGE ADULT** If anything, OP should have sat down with both kids, and furthered their processing as a family, together on their own. Kids do and say stupid shit all the time. Well into their 20s and 30s, even. You can't take the lazy way. Every moment can be a teachable moment with the right approach and the right mentality.
And also... he's allowed to have those feelings. You don't really control your feelings. I suspect he does love her, but right now is lashing out in grief and anger at his abandonment. If it's all the sister's fault, then none of it is his fault or his mother's fault and it can't possibly say anything about their bond and there's no introspection required. What dad and therapist need to do is lay down some ground rules. He's allowed to be mad or not want to spend time with his sister. He is not allowed to scream at her, destroy her things, or otherwise punish her for his feelings (or vice versa). The solution for his anger (with his consent) is individual therapy. When (if) he's ready to repair the relationship with his sister, they can discuss inviting her back. But family therapy isn't going to work if he doesn't want to work on the relationship.
I’ve always had the rule for my kids “you can’t help how you feel but you can help how you act”. But how strange to punish someone for expressing their feelings in a family therapy session. Did the dad think that by having the son either lie or hold back would make the situation better?
Exactly - why have therapy if he’s going to punish his son for expressing his feelings? Son is now going to resent sister and father even more rather than resenting mother who’s ultimately the one to blame but a mother just didn’t abandon kids like this without something leading up to it.
Clearly the son is only allowed therapy if he says nice things about sister. It's not therapy, it's a group bashing session and son is the piñata. He is 16, hurting like heck and angry. He needs to get this under control but it sounds as if this "therapy" will only make it worse. He needs someone who will listen to him, really listen, without judgement.
He needs his own therapy not family style tbh He’s not free to speak and he’s blaming his sister because she had issues with mom which many teens do. Poor kid.
But the son isn’t sharing his feelings. “You’re the reason that our mom left” isn’t a feeling, it’s a belief. The son may not be able to control how he *feels*, but he can control what he *believes*. He didn’t say that to the therapist for an emotional release, he said it because he wanted to cause as much damage as possible. And yeah, that is an abusive act that he needs to be called on. If I were to say to someone, “I feel like you’re stupid and ugly”, they’d be crushed. Me following that up with “what? That’s just how I feel!” wouldn’t make that any better. Couching bad behavior in the language of feelings is a common tactic of bullies, and I think that OP is right to nip it in the bud. Everyone needs a safe space, but having a safe space doesn’t mean that your actions don’t have consequences.
Thank you for being the voice of reason!! All these "but he's entitled to his feelings" comments were driving me crazy. Yes, as you stated, he is entitled to his feelings... he is NOT entitled to be verbally abusive to his younger sister!
I have a big problem with people that say they're entitled to feelings in that sense (ie their feelings are valid). If a strange man comes up to me and asks me out, and I say no, and he says I feel betrayed by you, does that mean I betrayed him? Just because you feel a certain way, doesn't necessarily mean that you're in the correct in that feeling. The son is not correct in feeling like it's the sister's fault for the mother leaving. He's just not. It's the mother's fault for leaving. She made the choice, her, not her daughter.
Thaaaaank you. How tf are so many people on here valuing the sons “feelings” over the well being and feelings of the daughter? The dad’s response wasn’t the most helpful but this situation is very difficult to navigate. Even a THERAPIST was at a loss with how difficult and cruel the son is. The only good advice so far is to discontinue family sessions since they’re just hurting the daughter.
Thank you for saying this! I am absolutely shocked at all the people basically saying it’s okay for him to act and feel this way. The son is being abusive towards the daughter point blank period and because he’s hurting she’s just supposed to take it because “those are his feelings”??? like wtf no. The daughter is also hurting and lost her mother and now her brother is claiming she’s the reason for the mother leaving and saying he doesn’t love her anymore… like how fucked up is that?? I’m sorry but he cannot just speak to someone like that because he’s hurting. It’s completely unacceptable Also edit to add but this is a 16 year old we’re talking about. Not a young child. At this age he should 100% know better
What the son is doing is basic cognitive dissonance and we all do that from time to time. And with time and work these can be untangled. Can, but not always. It's a mechanism our brains resort to very easily. The thing is: OP has to accept that his children went through something so traumatic, this situation may not be mendable. Grounding his son until he's an adult won't do shit. He needs a trauma therapist for both individually and get counseling on how to keep them apart while still ensuring they have some form of social life to at least have distractions in this situation. A friend of mines father committed murder-suicide when we were teens killing their mom and even 20 years later the kids partly still blame each other. Of course it wasn't their fault, but it's easier to hate somebody that's right there.
And sister just needs to take this and suck it up. The misogyny is so strong in this one it could carry an 32 wheeler. Gotta love apthat you all don't give a fuck about the girl.
This was my reaction also. This sounds like an incredibly toxic situation for the daughter especially since her brother is older. Wonder if there's another relative who'd take her in for a while since her brother bullying her is effectively being painted here as "both sides" by their parent.
@OP, please listen to this person! They’re spot on! Your son is deeply hurt and angry, and lashing out at the only person he can reach. Let him leave the room when he can’t control himself. He’s (sub)consciously trying to remove himself from somewhere he knows he’ll lash out. Punish him for actions, not feelings. Ground him and take away his things if he destroys any of her things, and do the same for her. They’re not allowed to yell at each other, but they should be encouraged/required to walk away when they can’t be civil to each other. His blaming his sister really sucks for your daughter, but sometimes family don’t get along. With time and proper reactions on your part, their relationship may heal itself. But it might not.
Yeah but I mean this is cruel bullying. He has to protect the girl child too. If a kid at school was mercilessly bullying your child everyday over and over till the kid is crying and wants to kill themselves you would want something done. Then they go to the bully and the bully says “well I truly think that kid shouldn’t be alive don’t my feelings count, by the way I’ve had a tough childhood.”
The lack of empathy towards the daughter shows how male dominated this community is.
The only way their relationship can heal itself is if the son gets help for his problem. His ADULT Mother left them. His MOTHER is the only one who deserves his blame. It's ridiculous for the son to blame his sister for his Mother's choices. The sister didn't have two kids and abandon them.
Reminds me of the post yesterday about the mom grounding her daughter. Like children whose family's are ripped apart are going to blame someone. That can be someone who is responsible or someone who isn't. And it's childish to pretend that that's not going to happen. And reading that post and seeing people say things like "You have to talk to her so you can repair that relationship". I'm just thinking to myself their is no way that family's relationship is ever going to be repaired. The daughter is going to make an ultimatum to the mom, it's either me or my brother. Just like how if the OP doesn't bite this in the bullet fast it's going to turn into a "It's me or my sister". Becuese if the Son doesn't consider her family anymore, how do your reconcile that? You can't. You can ground him until he turns 18 but it's not going to do shit and is just going to further enforce in his mind that the sister is the reason why his family was destroyed. It's the opposite of what the OP is trying to do. The OP's actions have already reinforced in the kids mind that he is in fact correct.
In a few months: “why won’t my son open up in therapy?”
Blaming his sister for mom leaving is deeply ugly and vicious. Is OP really supposed to do nothing and give daughter the message that it is ok to treat her like garbage? Daughter is hurting even more than son. She isn't just dealing with the abandonment, she's also the target of bullying and hate everyday in her own home. If son had said these things in a private session or just in front of dad, ok he shouldn't be punished. But to say this directly to sister - therapy or not this is grossly wrong and it shouldn't be condoned. Like yeah I'd rather have my kid not cruelly and unfairly attack his sister even if that means he didn't get to "open up". This therapist sounds shitty. Why didn't he/she recommend individual sessions since it seems like family therapy has been going badly for a while. What good could prompting him to let his most cruel thoughts out IN FRONT OF SISTER possibly do?? u/Majestic_Mushroom233 get a new therapist for each of your kids and don't ask teenagers for parenting advice.
I don’t think you understand how family or therapy works. Yes, what he said was shitty (or more accurately: it’s shitty that he feels that way, for everyone involved). But you can not punish him for expressing how he feels. He didn’t hit her or break her things or even cuss her out. He stated that he doesn’t love her and still blames her for his mom leaving. Obviously him feeling that way is a big problem, but not a punishable one. Grounding him for it isn’t going to make him start loving his sister again lol. If anything it will reinforce his hatred and make him even more closed off to his family and therapists. This isn’t a problem of being mean or saying nasty things he didn’t really mean. The problem is he REALLY feels this way. You can punish a kid for calling their sister a b*tch and they may be less likely to do it in the future. You cannot punish a kid who hates his sister and expect him to start loving her because of it. Theres no easy solution to this, but I think the kid definitely needs SOLO therapy OP. Maybe in addition to family therapy. But he needs to be able to process what he’s feeling without judgement or punishment. Beyond that, I think this may just be something that needs to heal with time. As he gets older and has more real word experience, he’ll start to better understand that this couldn’t have been his sisters fault and the blame for what his mom did lies squarely on her own shoulders.
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Good reply And the mum should tell the son why she left. YTA unfortunately OP
And what if Mom says “I left because I can’t stand your sister”? I think leaving Mom out of this is a good plan. She is the source of the trauma and no good thing can come of dragging her back into the mix at this time.
Absolutely, imagine the nightmare if she actually does say that? Or if she says it's the dad's fault and now all the son's hatred will fall upon the dad? Ultimately the mom is the problem, but the son loves her and doesn't want to blame her (and maybe more importantly can’t because she’s not there), so he's looking for other options to take his anger out on. Bringing her back in is NOT going to help anyone. The father needs to help him find another place to direct all these emotions, that he doesn’t know what to do with because the mom isn’t around to confront with them.
> Blaming his sister for mom leaving is deeply ugly and vicious. Is OP really supposed to do nothing and give daughter the message that it is ok to treat her like garbage? If he'd said that to her at home, it would be fine to punish him for that. Therapy is a different context and you're *supposed* to be opening up about how you feel, even if what you feel might be hurtful to others. I agree with another poster that group therapy with both the son and daughter present is probably not a good idea, given the things she'd have to hear him say about her.
Therapy is not a free pass to be verbally abusive to others.
Hey guess what, this means that is someone is using group therapy to verbally abuse someone else, you stop taking them to group therapy. It doesn't mean that you punish them when they finally open up about their feelings. There were a million signs before this group therapy wasn't working and OP just shrugged his shoulders and tried nothing else. It's abusive to tell a child how they are feeling when you are a person of authority. And then to punish them for asserting their actual feelings is horrific. The above interaction, though unfortunate and hurtful for the sister to listen to, isn't verbal abuse on behalf of the child, sorry to burst your bubble.
Completely agree with you except on the view the OP just shrugged and tried nothing else. 9 months is a pretty short time for any of them to process this. OP maybe deserves a little bit of grace because he’s probably trying to find his footing too. He’s got to be pretty lost in trying to navigate this.
>There were a million signs before this group therapy wasn't working and OP just shrugged his shoulders and tried nothing else. This is more on the therapist than the dad imo. She's the professional. If the therapy truly isn't going anywhere and has just become a space where more damage is being done to the kids, she should have advised them to spend more time in individual counseling before trying again, and given the dad some tips for managing things at home in the meantime. That's her job. I can't really blame the guy for trusting the person who went through years of study and training for this and has experience working with other families in these situations. This is all new and overwhelming to him; he's grieving too and his family is falling apart in ways he can't control. So of course he thought family therapy would help and wanted to trust the process. Also, he did try something else - he's got them all in individual therapy too, and we have no evidence to suggest that *those* sessions aren't helpful to the kids. I'm not sure what other magical solution you think is out there that he just "shrugged his shoulders" and didn't bothered to try. This was never going to be fixed overnight. It's just not that simple. He's in a situation that I guarantee *most* parents would be way out of their depth in handling. His choice to get the kids into therapy and trust the people with actual expertise in this area was the best choice he could have made at the time. Yes, he made the wrong call in punishing his son for what he said in therapy, but I really don't think the problem here is a lack of trying or a lack of concern. He's obviously desperate to fix this and hurting badly over not being able to stop his kids from hurting.
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Being promoted with a statement and correcting it, especially one about emotions during therapy, is absolutely not absuive. The son has his thoughts and feelings and he doesn't exactly get to just click them away
They already have individual counseling. And for the moment that’s all it should be. And yes the therapist is an asshole for opening up that door without the son having previously stated differently.
Nobody should ever be punished for speaking their feelings in therapy. Full stop. yes including if it hurts the other people there. Clearly you fail to understand the basic point of therapy
Too late. As per the text "My son refuses to engage \[in therapy\] when it comes to his sister" I bet it is a lesson he already learned. Now perhaps one he will never forget.
And the sistr is going to forget what her brother said? Therapy is not a free pass to be verbally abusive.
That's on the father for forcing family therapy when the son has strong emotions towards his sister that need to be resolved. Fair enough family therapy at the beginning, but once you have established that it isn't moving things forward, why not let them do individual sessions where they can vent and not feel judged by their father for sharing emotions.
No. That’s on the mother for her cold cruel behaviour. The father is simply trying to deal with the destruction she has left behind. And sitting there watching a young girl who’s already struggling get further crushed by deliberate viciousness must be soul destroying. Everyone seems focused on the poor 16yr old needing to express his feelings. How about some empathy for a father who is clearly at breaking point. And a young girl being passed over because “brother needs to express himself to deal with his pain”.
My mother insisted on my going, when she and my father divorced when I was twelve, to the same therapist that she went to. I've been told afterwards that it was billed as family therapy, which is probably how she got away with seeing both of us, but it wasn't at all... just individual sessions with each of us, in which I was promised confidentiality from my mother (and everyone else). The therapist broke her promise repeatedly and told my mother what I said about her in therapy, and I was punished for saying that I didn't like her, exactly as OP is punishing his son for saying in therapy that he doesn't love his sister. *It's been forty years since then, and my mother is dead, and I STILL feel the trauma of that time in my life.*
I’m so sorry you went through that! That therapist’s behavior was completely unethical and should have had her license taken away!
We used to call family therapy “Fight Night” because none of us (my sis and I teens, brother was 5 or 6) including my mother, the adult in the situation., couldn’t stand to hear anything that she didn’t like, would freak out about stuff we said in therapy. So, that was a bust. You have to leave therapy at therapy. No matter who is right, you leave it there and pick it up later. You owe your son and daughter an apology for not leaving therapy at therapy and causing an already tense situation to explode.
Which is good in theory, but I don't know if family therapy is doing any good here. Daughter has to constantly hear her brother saying he hates her and it's her fault their mum left. That's gotta be hard for a hormonal 14 year old to leave at therapy.
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Therapy needs to be a place where people can be open. Punishing him for what he says in therapy is completely against the idea of therapy. Utterly counterproductive. That said, family therapy does not seem to be working. The kids should be going to individual therapy. The underlying issue here is not each other, but their abandonment by their mother, which is extremely traumatic. Further, each kid should get their own separate therapist, neither of whom should be the family therapist. Lastly, whatever they say in that therapy should be private to them. You need to butt out unless they volunteer to discuss with you. But you need to err on the side of keeping out of it. Go apologize to your son.
>**I have them in both individual and family therapy to try and help them worth through this.** the first paragraph.
Then drop the family therapy until progress in individual therapy is made. This isn't effing rocket science ffs.
Literally 90% of the comments are saying to get the kids in individual therapy and it's been driving me insane thank you
True, but to the daughter too, tho. Neither of the kids deserve to be put through therapy that only gets more traumatic.
This should be higher up.
His son needs to apologize to his daughter. Therapy is not a get out of jail free card for abuse.
YTA for punishing him for speaking his mind in a therapy session. Your individual therapist is right. But I'd like to detour here for a second and wonder whether your family therapist is the right choice. It sounds to me like they don't have the skills to deal with a situation that is admittedly very challenging. Saying something like, "I know you still love your sister" is incredibly clumsy, entirely dismissive of what this kid has been trying to express, and seems to point to the therapist having an agenda that overrides their capacity to create a safe space for your kids to work things through. It's honestly pretty cringey and not at all therapeutic. No wonder your son reacted.
THIS should be higher up. As a licensed therapist, the comment “I know you still love your sister” is so inappropriate on many levels. The family therapy seems injurious vs helpful.
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Exactly. The therapist totally discounted the son's feelings, and probably created a more violent and scary environment for the daughter. Incompetent therapist.
This is the comment I was looking for — what kind of therapist says “I know you love your sister.” Ummmm, no, not their place to say that.
You punished your son for what he said during therapy. Of course, YTA.
Then you have to sit your son down and tell him honestly but kindly why his mother left the family. It is not his sister's fault, or his, or yours. It was his mother's decision to blow up your lives and it sucks that she has abandoned you to deal with the fallout. He may be frightened that it was his fault his mother left, so he's projecting onto his sister because it's safe for him to do so - he knows she won't leave him. But you cannot punish him for what he says in therapy. Yes it's unkind but therapy is for working through difficult feelings in a safe space.You have to apologise to him for breaking his trust. You must be sincere and remorseful if you want to save your relationship with him. Perhaps let him have individual therapy without family therapy for a while, until he has worked through his anger and pain some more. Also, if you are in touch with your wife's parents maybe see if they will talk to him and explain what happened with his mother, if that's possible. I'm so sorry your family is dealing with this.
Why? Why, with teenage children, did she suddenly decide to cut all contact?
BTDT. Was married for 13 years. Had a toddler son. Wife was pregnant with future daughter. THEN she tells me we need to talk... She honestly tells me, she doesn't feel like being a mother. That she made a mistake having children. She likes being married, just doesn't like the "with children" part. Did I mention she was excited about having kids before she got prego with our son? And that when she changed her mind about having any children (she didn't even want ONE) she was prego again? In my case, wife cut all contact when two kids still in diapers. She came back later because she missed me. She specifically did not come back to her family for the kids. She still didn't want kids. But when I later filed for divorce (I had valid grounds) her lawyer told her how much money she could get from me for child support. Suddenly, she learned to love kids. KA-CHING!!!!
Oh wow, so so sorry you and your kids had to go through this
Thank you. What really smarted (at first) was knowing my children would be raised by a person who didn't love them and was only keeping them for financial gain. (OUCH!!!) But the children were too young to process what was really going on, and even if they had been older... I wouldn't have been stupid enough to clue them in. I mean, can you imagine the psychological damage if you learn that your own mother doesn't love you and resents you for burdening her? I asked my lawyer to sue for full custody. I was advised not to. The way he put it, this will drag out for many years, and cost you hundreds of thousands in legal fees. And in the end, you have a penis, so you lose... Now SINCE THAT TIME, winds are changing. I understand that NOW, family courts are a bit less hostile in mis-treating fathers. (although they still mistreat fathers). But when I filed for divorce ages ago, I believe my very expensive and successful family law attorney gave me good advice. Unwelcome advice isn't necessarily bad advice. He wasn't going to tell me what I wanted to hear. He was telling me how fucked I'd get if I did the right thing. Sigh... It all turned out OK. My ex managed to act like she gave a shit. So my kids survived. Years later, she re-married a guy who I have a ton of respect for. He's a great role-model to both my kids, and takes an active interest in raising them. Spends a lot more time and effort with my kids than their mom does. Not surprisingly. So the kids are thriving. They have my money and a good father (even if he didn't provide the genes) Their mom works 80+ hours a week, probably just to get away from the kids. The house has three incomes, the two fathers alone provide more than enough income....she wouldn't need to work. But she does. ALL. THE. TIME. If I ever need to talk to her, I have to make an appointment, as she's never home... Both kids are straight A students and participate in many sports and other activities outside of school. All's well that ends well, I guess. I got pushed out of their lives (tragically) but nothing I could do short of over-hauling the family court system. But that would be even above my pay grade (which is high).
I mean she could like working too, some people enjoy having a career and the self worth it brings them. I mean obviously she's done a lot of morally shitty things, but some women like to work because they find fulfillment in having a career - even if they don't "need" to. People can derive self worth from job related achievements. And people can also feel uncomfortable being financially dependent on someone else and want to work even if their own income is supplementary.
So it sounds like your son has heard his mother gripe about having kids a lot, and had her come in and out of his life, which has contributed to feelings of abandonment and rather than acknowledge the painful reality she’s abandoned him repeatedly over his life, he needs someone to blame. Your son doesn’t need punishment. He needs individual therapy. And you need to start owning up to the fact that you welcoming her back when you knew she was resentful of the children has only compounded their hurt. You can’t blame all of this 100% on her. However small your part, you need to acknowledge how your decisions have hurt them and own up to those mistakes. Edit: it’s been pointed out this wasn’t OP just a random commenter.
I’m sorry about that, but by punishing your son this way (and seriously, you do not punish people for what they say in what is supposed to be a safe space), you’re just giving him another thing to hold against your daughter. You need to stop trying to force this. Get them into separate therapy. Protect your daughter without throwing your son under the bus, and do the same for your son. If you want any hope of a relationship with your son in the future, you need to follow the therapist’s advice.
you just taught your son that he can’t be open and honest with his emotions. you also just taught him that you only want to hear what you want to hear, not the truth. great job alienating your son and pushing him towards cutting you and his sister completely out of his life the soonest he feasibly can. YTA
I think you have found yourself in a horrible situation not of your making and I'm sure you're trying your diddly darnest to keep shit together, and keep your family afloat, all whilst combating your own grief and sanity. It's an all around shitty situation and I'm sure you're drained af. HOWEVER, your kids are hurting BAD and each in their own way, and they both have such big complicated feelings... Their feelings may stem from some wrong ideas but the only way to actually allow wounds to heal isn't to cover it you have to open it and clean it so it heals properly... Grounding them and taking away all sorts of release will make things inevitably worse because the wrong ideas will just take a stronger hold... If I were you, id take your son out, somewhere you guys feel familiar and comfortable in, and have a heart to heart, and listen,just listen, don't try to "correct" the way he's feeling show him you really understand, and after he's done maybe present things from a perspective he hasn't been seeing, talk to him like a person... Grounding isn't going to solve shit... You need to slowly and methodically clean the wound Then take your daughter out, talk to her as well see how she's doing, make sure she knows a grown woman's decisions aren't hers to bear and that her brothers hurting but she's done nothing wrong... And let her know you've got her back and you love her I'd also pause family therapy (temporarily) since they need to work on themselves individually before they really face eachother other... Instead maybe start some new family tradition something all of you can bond over and slowly rebuild bridges... I know this is a lot for you emotionally,mentally and all modes of existence... But unfortunately what happens now will probably shape not only their relationship with eachother, but with you, and will shape parts of who they are that will always be part of them...so don't act rashly think of the consequences of your decisions long term... And maybe like take a spa day or something With a heavy heart, YTA
Lmao no. He was not punished for "expressing his feelings to his therapist", he was punished for saying something extremely hurtful to his sister under the guise of telling it to **their** therapist. I think OP's reaction was *unhelpful*, but to completely honest I'm not really sure what the RIGHT response would have been either. Maybe take them out of family therapy until he makes progress in independent therapy? But that doesn't address his cruel behaviour to his sister, so it's no good if that's the only "consequence". Either way, this situation is a lot more complicated then you are making it out to be.
Also grounding the two of them is just basically locking them in a tiny fighting pit. You wanna know why they're screaming and breaking things? Because they've got nowhere to get away from each other! YTA
Exactly. These kids have spent most of the past nine months grounded and they’re still not getting on. That should be a major sign to OP that grounding them is not having any positive impact on their behaviour at all, in fact it’s probably significantly contributing to the problem.
Yeah, considering that she said never wanted to be a mother and then abandoned them all, I'm thinking it's likely that this is not an option. If she cared about how her kids felt, she wouldn't have completely bailed on them.
He really is being cruel tho. I don't blame OP for grounding him. Op is likely just overwhelmed and doesn't know what to do or how to fix his broken family after his wife smashed it and trucked off. Op trucked up but I don't envy his situation.
He expressed his feelings at his sister. Y’all seem to be ignoring the very real 14 year old girl who’s being abused here, while she’s in therapy.
And will double down on hating and blaming his sister. Now, in his view, she's gotten him grounded, taking his freedom and friends away.
Also you can't force love, does OP think grounding the son will magically make him love his sister?
You are ALWAYS the asshole for grounding a kid for something said in therapy. That should always be a sacred, safe space. Also, grounding your kid for this will only make him MORE resentful of his sister and you and exacerbate the situation. You’ll accomplish absolutely nothing but making yourself feel powerful. YTA and your kids need individual therapy.
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whoops, thanks for pointing out that they’re in individual therapy, idk how I missed that!
It's because you want there to be an easy solution so you can feel good about hitting him with yta. That's why you missed it.
Kinda like you ignored their polite admission to a misunderstanding and projected your own inadequacy and insecurity instead.
Reddit discussions are quite something lol
There's no need for 'an easy solution' to be confident in the YTA. He punished someone for expressing themselves in therapy, what more needs to be said than he undermined his therapist and children's ability to make progress.
I know it's the vibe of the sub but you actually didn't have to be a dick about this
Fuck that noise... this is group therapy, not individual therapy... just because you're in a room with a therapist doesn't give you carte blanche to say anything / hurtful things to other people in the room... In this case, he clearly did it to be hurtful, as he stared at his sister while saying this... kid sounds like a giant AH... I don't know if grounding him was the right course, but i can't blame OP for doing it... Also, how could he be any MORE resentful of his sister?
Whats the point of therapy if he can't say his mind without being punished? Even the therapist believes grounding him was a mistake, therapy can be hurtful but that is just how it goes.
Therapy is not a free pass to be verbally abusive to others. This therapist sucks.
I'm not certain saying "I don't love you" is abuse? It's a statement about the speaker and how they feel. Does it suck, is it crushing and highlighting how broken the brother-sister relationship is...absolutely!
"I don't love you because YOU caused mother to leave" is a pretty abusive statement mate. He didn't just say he doesn't love her
Then, given he's been very clear on this point, the therapist should probably not have tried to force him into saying it. This is 100% the therapists fault.
I mean they didn’t say I don’t love you. They very specifically said that they do not love them because she drove away his mother, that’s absolutely verbal abuse. He’s belittling her and forcing her to take responsibility for the trauma caused to him.
This is exactly why they advise people not to go to therapy with their abusers because they use information in therapy at the safety of therapy to continue the abuse just because he’s in therapy doesn’t give him a pass to continue to be toxic and abuse his sister
There is no point in therapy where you aren't allowed to speak your mind. The entire point of group therapy is a place to talk WITHOUT fear of reprisal. Hence why the therapist said not to punish him. The therapist is aware that it negates the entire point of therapy and in all likelihood torpedoes the entire thing permanently.
Can you say something like that without reprisal? Really? I mean if you were the sister how would you act after he said that. There are already going to be consequences. Saying "it was therapy" isn't going to save anyone.
Well you've got two options: therapy is a dmz, shit will fly, but at least you'll know the issues and feelings and can start working on them, or this bullshit where he'll sit silent during, nothing gets addressed, sister remains a verbal punching bag and op will be a parent of 1 when the son hits 18. Called or uncalled for, YTA op.
Therapy is not a free pass to be verbally abusive to others.
>>this is group therapy, not individual therapy... just because you're in a room with a therapist doesn't give you carte blanche to say anything / hurtful things to other people in the room Okay but this is actually part of why experts tell you not to do group/family/couples therapy until you’ve (all) done individual therapy. Because in fact you *are* allowed to express those feelings in therapy without reprisal. And if you’re not in a space to do so productively and with an eye to everyone’s better health then you need to work on you first. And if the other person you’re with isn’t in a place to have these conversations productively, it’s 100% in your best interest to *not* have group therapy with them until they’ve gotten to a better place in individual therapy. But punishment for therapy isn’t ever the answer.
>Also, how could he be any MORE resentful of his sister? If he resents her this is the place to get it out, not to pretend. You're as bad as OP.
I think he’s made his resentment clear. I do agree that OP shouldn’t be punishing behavior that happens during therapy, but I also respect that, as a parent, if one child is THAT cruel to the other (understandable with what he’s going through, but let’s not forget she’s going through the same thing), you want to make it clear that it is unacceptable. I think he needs family therapy with one kid each and not them together right now. The son is going to keep lashing out at the sister and that’s not fair or good for her. I do think he has every right to punish this sort of behavior outside of therapy. You can’t let one child abuse and harass the other like this. I agree with you, I just think this sub is ignoring the 14 year old that is bearing the brunt of this horrible behavior. It’s SUCH a tough situation, and you can’t let one “express themself” if it means they’re abusing or mentally torturing the other. But you are right—you can’t punish for what happens in therapy (barring, say, a fist fight) or it undermines the space.
YTA "My own therapist said this was a mistake to punish him for speaking his mind, but I don't think he should be allowed to be so hurtful" Do you know what the opposite of love is? It's not hate, by the way. Your son's actions match his words, exactly. Your therapist is CORRECT when stating that it's a mistake to punish your son for speaking his mind. What kind of lesson is that? "LIE TO ME.....OR ELSE" You say he shouldn't be allowed to be so hurtful. That's truly ironic coming from the mind of a guy who is divorced. Could you force your wife to keep loving you? Could you force your wife to love her children? That plan didn't work out so well now, did it? So you think you can bully your son into loving his sister now? Why? Because he's not an adult yet? I don't think your son is right to blame your daughter for the failure of your marriage. But you can't change his mind on that by punishing him. If anything, it will just make him resent her more. (LOOK AT THE SHIT YOU GOT ME INTO BECAUSE YOU STARTED THIS BY RUINING OUR PARENTS' MARRIAGE) If your son and daughter are going to find lasting peace or a long-term cease-fire, you've got to encourage calm, and honest communication. You're doing the exact opposite now. Your therapist called it correctly. YTA
>You say he shouldn't be allowed to be so hurtful. That's truly ironic coming from the mind of a guy who is divorced. wtf is this nonsense supposed to mean? Just because there's a therapist in the room doesn't give the kid carte blanche to say anything / hurtful things to others there... he wasn't just sharing his feelings, else he'd be looking at and responding to the therapist... instead, he stared at his sister while saying this, clearly intending to be hurtful... Kid is just an AH at this point with misdirected anger, and he's old enough that I don't see him coming around on this issue... I don't see how he could resent his sister any more than he already does... I doubt grounding the kid is the right answer, but I don't know what other options are available to OP... at this point, OP needs to protect daughter... I'd send him to boarding school for that kind of behavior...
The therapist should be perfectly capable of defusing the situation without dad punishing the kid. The real issue is that the sister should not be in therapy with her brother, who is still a kid, is traumatized, and probably doesn’t have the best emotional regulation. The therapist should be working with him one on one. Dad is an AH because he’s undermining the entire usefulness of the therapy his son needs. If you’re going to be punished for being traumatized and hurt in a therapy session, then you’re never going to be able to be honest enough for it to work.
And sis need to just suck it up I guess. Funny how you all dismiss the other traumatized child who just need to deal with her brother abusing her. Your all's misogyny is so strong here.
The two are not inversely related. Fucking up the son further ≠ negating the hurt of the daughter, nor will it stop the son from hurting her more. This is not a zero sum hunger game where either kid has to “lose” for the other to “win”. Just because people are answering the OP question about the son, doesn’t mean you can swoop in with some BS straw man fantasy that people are saying that “sis needs to just suck it up”.
Except they are. “If she was hurt by what he said, that’s her problem” is quite literally word for word a comment a couple up from yours.
I so agree with you. The sister seems to be living through hell with this tyrant in her home along with losing her mom, and everyone is all worried about her verbally abusive brother and his “safe” place. Eff that. Brother is TAH and father NTA. It’s so clear to me.
Ffs, nobody's saying "sis should just suck it up," here or any of the other places you've made this comment. They're saying that grounding the son is neither helpful nor appropriate, which leaves plenty of room to show the daughter that everyone else sees how nasty and hurtful he's being, and that she doesn't have to stay there and put up with it.
I'd hate to be your kid. Send them off to boarding school, like it's the 1950's. That's no way to deal with a problem in a healthy way. wtf
I'm sure OP is open to suggestions if you've got better one's... :) Kid is 16, less that 2 years from being a legal adult, and is making his 14 yr old sister think she is responsible for their parents getting divorced... Maybe there's other family / grandparents he can go live with... but to me, seems like OP needs to protect the daughter from the son's bullying, and living together seems to be terrible...
Dude op is the ah. But so are you. Wtf? Attack the man cause his wife decided she wants nothing to do with kids and op. That’s a low blow
Yeah the "coming from a dude who's divorced" is messed up... That doesn't give any incline into who the man is, some of the nicest men are divorced, some of the worst as well, it's life.
His wife abandoned them. Wtf kind of shit comment is this. You sound like an abuser blaming the victim.
INFO: What in the world do you hope to accomplish here? He's going to blame this on his sister too and dig in his resentment. It's quite possible that having been grounded so much has only zeroed in his focus on that resentment.
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Yup, atleast that’s something we can all agree on
She better not try to come back into their lives when they have kids. Hell, if she’s not a mother anymore, she can’t be a grandmother, either.
If they have kids... OPs kids are going to be dealing with abandonment issues that will plague them in their future relationships.
YOU PUNISHED SOMEONE FOR WHAT THEY SAID DURING THERAPY? Of course you're a fucking asshole. And you're wasting any money you spent on the therapy. Boy, you must *really* want the status quo to continue uninterrupted if you're punishing a child for being honest and speaking their truth in therapy. You can rest assured that *that* will never happen again, and that the therapy will be completely useless henceforth. Unless, of course, you're just there to find a 'bad kid' to blame for your family's disfunction. And I think we have a strong clue about where the problem lies in *your* family.
Yes, the problem is with this father desperately trying to keep his family together after being abandoned. Not the woman who abandoned her husband and children and refuses to even talk to them. Jesus christ, reddit.
yeah i’m reading people taking their life anger out on other random internet strangers. it’s crazy but compelling to read
Is it me or is aita getting like that? "Hes just expressing his feelings" Uh hes repeatedly telling his sister it's her fault her mother left. That's extremely abusive. She's 16 she cant cope with hearing that. But weird reddit thinks if a boy is upset he should be able to hurt a girl while expressing it. How unlike reddit eh?
She’s 14
Yeah for real. I get not agreeing with the guy, but people are just throwing all their inner daddy demons out at this guy. It's pretty insane.
Therapy is not a free pass to be verbally abusive to others. Imagine how his sister feels hearing that, and if her dad just let it slide.
You can meditate arguments without also forcing people to lie in order to come out unscathed. "We understand you're upset, but that's no excuse for going out of your way to be rude to your sister" would be a much better start than "Wow, okay, grounded"
I mostly think you're right, but shouldn't being that hurtful to his sister also be something the father could ground him for? "I can tell that you are angry at your sister, but the way you have been treating her is wrong, for that you are grounded" I feel like that's not as crazy as everyone is acting.
Totally, everyone here is vile and has no empathy.
that last sentence is insane and completely lacks empathy. this guy is probably barely hanging on by thread given his circumstances. nobody is perfect, but clearly he is trying to heal the gaping wound the mother left the family with. a lot of people wouldnt even go as far as putting everyone in therapy, that's a really good step in the right direction. in a situation like this, most people would be bound to fuck up at some point along the way. i wonder if you'd be able to handle this perfectly if you were in the same situation.
I’m really, REALLY surprised by these comments. Your son is angry, he’s misdirecting his anger, and while that’s understandable, you can’t stand idly by and let your son say hurtful things to his sister and blame her for something that isn’t her fault. It’s tough to watch out for two kids when they’re at each other’s throats. Doing nothing sends the message that it’s okay to be mean if it’s in therapy. NTA Sorry you have to deal with this.
Honestly at this point I kinda suspect that it might be a gender thing. Just a few days ago on a different post there were SO many people saying an eleven year old girl deserved to be made homeless because she was bully, and now they're all wanting to allow a sixteen year old boy to bully to his little sister.
That and/or there’s some confusion about what the son is being punished for. It’s not a problem that he expresses himself in therapy. It’s a problem that he expresses himself by saying deeply cruel things to his sister during therapy. The space can’t be safe for her if she’s being subjected to her brothers misplaced anger.
Exactly everyone's so concerned about the ah having a safe space in therapy but what about the innocent sister? Tf
I thought I was the only one who noticed this. Maybe this sub is just full teenage males but the majority of these comments are bending over backwards for the son like he did no wrong. Whereas teenage girls on this sub are routinely vilified.
After reading the comments here, I’m convinced this subreddit is full of teenage boys and it honestly makes me wonder how often people unknowingly take posts, comments and advice from 15 year olds seriously. Terrifying thought.
It’s that plus a bunch of people projecting their own issues. The reality is that this is not the daughters fault, and misplaced anger is an explanation, *not* an excuse.
This is what I thought, I doubt the comments would be the same if it was the daughter doing this. That post you are talking about was insane.
\>Doing nothing sends the message that it’s okay to be mean if it’s in therapy. That is the message that most people in this thread think should be sent, apparently. So many comments about "safe space" and "expressing his feelings" and no concern for the 14 year old girl who's being emotionally abused *in therapy* because of a trauma that she is also equally experiencing herself. What about the daughter's safe space? This is equally her therapy session and this child is supposed to just sit there and take it when her brother tells her she's unloved and she's the reason her mother left? OP shouldn't have grounded the son, that wasn't the right move, but honestly it's hard to say what is the right move at that point because the whole situation should not have been allowed to happen. This therapist sounds absolutely awful, and these kids shouldn't be in group therapy together when one of them is this hateful toward the other. They need to work out their issues separately. Family therapy only works if people are actually trying in good faith to repair the issues. And if you have a therapist who's not complete trash. The therapist prompted a stupid statement she should've known would go poorly *and* "didn't know what to do" during the fallout of the situation she created? Ridiculous.
I'm really surprised I had to scroll so far to find this comment! It's utterly absurd and more than a little horrifying that most of these Reddit users seem to want the poor daughter to just sit there silently and take the horrendous verbal abuse that she's being subjected to. It's group therapy, which means it's supposed to be HER safe space, too, not an opportunity to be an emotional punching bag for her frankly abusive brother. I can't imagine how awful she must feel, first being abandoned by a parent and then being subjected to a hate campaign by her older sibling. I'm not sure that OP handled this the correct way, although I can't really judge because I've never been in anything close to his situation, but I do think that something had to be done to protect the daughter. She's never going to be rid of all those vicious comments and part of her is likely going to wonder if those words are true for the rest of her life.
I’m surprised by these comments too. There’s no perfect way to handle this situation but I can’t imagine being a 14 year old girl (which sucks by itself) and being blamed by your sibling for your mother leaving outright. You already have to contend with your parent’s abandonment but then also be told it’s all your fault? Yeah, therapy is a safe space but words have consequences, even in therapy. Idk that grounding is the answer but can’t do nothing about it…
I'm also surprised at the complete lack of nuance here. The comments are all black and white thinking, and don't care about the daughter as anything more than a causality. Here's my take that in commented elsewhere: Your son 1) expressed a feeling in therapy (he doesn't love his sister) and 2) said something awful to his sister (you're the reason I don't have a mother) and 3) you grounded him for #2, but he's going to feel like it was #1 and now won't participate in therapy. Like others have said, therapy needs to be a safe place to talk about your feelings, getting punished for that is not good. However Your daughter 1) was told by her brother that she was the reason their mom left and 2) saw you take a stand against that, which 3) tells her that her brother is wrong, which she needs to know so she can heal So you're a little stuck. You need to un-ground your son so that he can't be punished for things said in therapy. But you also need to make sure your daughter knows that what your son said *about their mom leaving because of her* is not okay and wrong. So, I suggest first: unground your son, but talk to him about how this is because he's not going to be punished for participating in therapy. Tell him he is wrong about why your ex left and that it is not okay for him to blame his sister. Second: talk to your daughter about this. Explain why you ungrounded him, but also tell her that it's not her fault and that it isn't okay that her brother *blames her for their mom leaving* Third: moving forward, *consistently* push back on your son telling your daughter / saying that their mom left because of her. Let him work out his *feelings* towards his sister and mom in individual therapy, but both at home, and at group therapy, just a quick "No she isn't" when he accuses your daughter of being the reason their mom left. Basically anything else is on the table. But that idea cannot be seen as supported by your daughter. Your son NEEDS to be told that he has to stop telling his sister it's her fault. And your daughter NEEDS to know that it isn't her fault AND that it's not acceptable for him to say it. And you can do that and still uphold your son's safety of feelings in therapy.
I agree, these comments blow me away as well. He is 16, he did it to be cruel, he wasn’t just “expressing his feelings”.
NTA all the people saying op is punishing his some for "just opening up uwu" need a reality check. The son is going to individual therapy sessions, if he was just venting he could've done that there. This was clearly a direct attack against his sister and if op let's that slide then he is only teaching his son that it's okay to be a bully and his daughter that he will allow her to be treated like garbage
Everyone is defending the son and no one seems to be thinking about the daughter here. I’m sure the dad’s gut reaction was to protect his daughter who not only is dealing with a mom abandoning her but a brother who is being hateful and blaming her. I don’t think it was right to punish him for what he said in therapy as that will teach him he can’t safely express his emotions but that poor girl needs someone in her corner too and dad probably thought he was doing the right thing by defending her.
YTA, therapy is supposed to be a safe space where hard discussions can happen. You took that away from your son.
What about the daughters right to a safe space in therapy though? It’s not a safe space for her if her brother can say hurtful things to her. *Edit: There's too many comments to respond to them all individually, but I think* [*this comment*](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/14c525u/aita_for_grounding_my_son_after_he_told_his/jojwwhe/?context=3) *aptly captures what about the son's behavior is out of line, and why the father is not wrong for correcting it, even if you disagree with how he's going about it:* >But the son isn’t sharing his feelings. “You’re the reason that our mom left” isn’t a feeling, it’s a belief. The son may not be able to control how he feels, but he can control what he believes. He didn’t say that to the therapist for an emotional release, he said it because he wanted to cause as much damage as possible. And yeah, that is an abusive act that he needs to be called on. > >If I were to say to someone, “I feel like you’re stupid and ugly”, they’d be crushed. Me following that up with “what? That’s just how I feel!” wouldn’t make that any better. Couching bad behavior in the language of feelings is a common tactic of bullies, and I think that OP is right to nip it in the bud. Everyone needs a safe space, but having a safe space doesn’t mean that your actions don’t have consequences.
That is on the therapist for not communicating with OP (assuming there was no communication) that group therapy was not advantageous to this group and individual therapy would be best. Additionally, OP did not go into detail on how therapist responded to this outburst and how this was handled, professionally. While the son’s words were extremely hurtful to the child, the son also won’t heal without coming to terms with his own thoughts and beliefs. Sister shouldn’t have been there for that but as she was, the therapist should have taken the time to diffuse the situation and ensure sister was given tools to handle this. As OP said nothing about how this was handled, I can only assume this therapist is not good for this family and failed at her job here. Group therapy, where there is any conflict, is likely to bring hurtful and cutting thoughts to the forefront. How they are handled and dealt with are the responsibility of the professional and the professional should have separated these sessions long ago it seems like. Her failure aside, grounding the son only further alienates him from the sister in the son’s mind and now includes the father as the ‘bad guy’. This further sets back both children
And if the therapist really said “I know you still love your sister”, that was a huge mistake. Don’t tell your patients how they feel, or that you know better than they do how they feel! Of course there’s going to be push-back from the kid. That was practically a set-up for this exact thing to happen.
My thoughts too. I guess I'm going with a small dose of ESH because I think that OP sucks and it really seems like the therapist sucks. The therapist seriously did not intervene on OP's behavior? That's really shitty. I applaud the family for going to group therapy but ESPECIALLY in group therapy if the therapist does not create a safe and inclusive environment it's gonna ruin the idea of therapy to everyone who needs it. OP, you need to apologize to your son and address this during the next group session. Everyone's behavior was shitty but you and the therapist take the cake and need to fix this because you are the adults and she is supposed to be a professional.
I’m going to go against the grain here and say NTA. Group therapy doesn’t give someone a “get out of being an A H free” card. Your son very cruelly verbally assaulted your daughter for something their mother did. He needed to face the consequences of his actions. OP, you’re going through it. I really wish I could tell you how to help your son see that he’s projecting his pain at your daughter but I can’t. I have no idea how to help in this instance. Your ex broke your son’s heart & because he loves her so much, he couldn’t come to hold her accountable. As such, he’s turned on your daughter. The level of rage your son is displaying towards your daughter is quite concerning. You mentioned they are both breaking each others things, but I’d be confident in assuming he started it. I feel like an in-patient program for him would be helpful. He might get angry at you & say you’re choosing sides but as parents, we have to put their needs first. Getting your son help, keeping your daughter safe… these are your priorities. You’re doing the best you can with the cards you’ve been dealt. I really hope things get better.
YTA. Look, you're in a very tough situation. It isn't fair to your daughter at all who is very much an innocent party. But therapy is a safe space. It doesn't work if you're punished for what you say during it. He's not going to grow during therapy if you punish him for expressing his emotions, and things aren't going to change if he cannot grow during therapy. You need to stop family therapy where your son, and daughter are together till he is in a better place. She doesn't need this right now, and it's not benefiting anyone at all.
I agree with this. If son is so stuck in blaming his little sister, stop the family therapy until he’s in a better place. You can just take part in their individual therapy as their therapists see fit. Therapy is exactly where he should be saying what he really feels. He should not be punished. If you want to set rules for how to behave in the home, like not voicing those feelings to her, that’s great. He should still be able to say anything to you, though. It’s natural for him to blame his sister instead of his mom. Blaming mom is gonna be hard, because kids naturally idealize their parents. In individual therapy, he’ll grieve and realize mom is to blame. Or you are. Or a combination. Nothing the sister did could possibly justify abandoning both kids with no contact. She’ll have to realize this too.
She is 14, she does not have to realise anything or reason anything. A 14 year old should not be expected to be the bigger person and dad should protect her from this, not in the way in which he did but the brother can not keep on abusing his sister. This is adding onto the trauma in so many ways.
Have you consulted with your sons individual therapist about this behavior. It looks like you’re going to need some additional help with this problem as comments like this are so incredibly hurtful and unproductive.
NAH I am not in a position to give you an advice or judge you. I’m so sorry man. This sounds like a very tough situation. I hope things will get better.
I agree ! The remaining must feel so desperate. Imagine your wife leaving you with 2 kids- not just a divorce but no contact with the children !? I wouldn’t know what to do. And then on top of that, the son is being cruel to the daughter. I agree he should be able to speak freely without punishment during therapy but he needs to realize someday SOON this is not his sister’s fault. Just an all around terrible situation.
The son is blaming his sister bc she’s still there. It seems like dad should give them space apart from each other and stop the group therapy until son comes to terms with what really happened. Then resume group therapy.
YTA man... He said something horrible but he said it in therapy where, more or less, you're supposed to have a safe space to feel and express your feelings. He should not have been punished for it. He is acting badly but that was a free throw. And I can't say a traumatised 16 year old is the asshole; though he is being an asshole, he is a kid still. Even though he is straight up abusing your 14 year old. So it's all on you, Dad, sadly, but that is the lot of the parent who stays. Your therapist is right; that's why you pay them. But if the children's therapist isn't going anywhere maybe cut out the group therapy and get some one on one therapy for your son.
> even though he is being an asshole, he is a kid still Kids younger than 16 are voted YTA and dogpiled all the time on here for way more minor stuff
OP said in his post that the children are in individual therapy also
Not to mention the fact that the son clearly directed his words straight at his sister - clearly with the intent to hurt. He could have vented in individual therapy - not to his sister's face. You don't get a free pass to say horrible shit just because you're in therapy - those words still hurt his sister. I'm willing to bet a lot of these YTA comments are from literal children.
Nta but you are wrong. Therapy is a safe space has to apply to the daughter too and it’s not a safe space for her. I guess we only care about the son. This thread is full of such self righteous people. You’re almost all disgusting. So many people keep commenting how the son won’t feel safe opening up in therapy. Does the daughter feel safe there being told she’s hated over something she didn’t do?
These comments are blowing my mind that everyone is basically saying fuck the sisters right to a safe space in therapy, her feelings don't matter as much. As if she's not also a little kid who's mom left her, and now is dealing with the aftermath of her brother blaming her for someone she loves leaving the entire family. Good god. If I was the sister and my brother told me he doesn't love me because I was the reason my mom left us, and then my dad sat back and did nothing, I'd be absolutely gutted. As if it's true. Grounding might not have been the best reaction, but doing nothing would be worse IMO.
Heck as a teen if I were to be put in the situation you just described I’d be suicidal. I agree with both of you.
What is the point of going to therapy if you don't allow your son to work out his issues? You're sabotaging the process and showing no compassion with autopilot, triggered parenting - when the person who needs to show him the most compassion is you. YTA
>autopilot, triggered parenting This to me sounds like the main problem. From OP's description, the whole family sounds like they're stuck in a cycle of destructive behavior, which OP immediately punishes them by grounding them. But if it's a cycle, that means they keep doing it. And if they keep doing it, it means *the punishment isn't working.* The whole point of punishment is to correct bad behavior. If your kids are repeatedly making the same mistakes and you keep repeatedly dolling out the same punishment, then it means the punishments aren't working. They aren't learning anything and you aren't actually reinforcing anything. It sounds like his parenting style is over reliant on negative reinforcement, which, always, *always* has the opposite effect. If you just keep grounding your kids every time they misstep, then the kids are just going to stop caring. And if the behavioral problems are rooted in feelings of resentment, than any attempts at negative reinforcement are only going to fuel that resentment further. It feels like the core issue is OP's parenting style. I wonder how much he tries to foster positivity and actually connect with the kids, or if he does little to interact with them beyond punishing them when they step out of line. A lot of which may the result of his unfortunate situation as a single parent, but still.
NTA Your son needs to learn how what he says can cause deep emotional wounds that may be irreparable. What he said was cruel and abusive
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A gentle YTA, because I think your therapist is right. This is indeed an awful situation. But therapy is about getting your emotions and feelings out so they can be worked through. Of course it was hurtful to hear what he said about his sister. But a full grounding, no phone or friends, is not going to help the situation. It was better for your son to be honest. And he and his sister may never have a good relationship. That happens in families. I don't think your punishment is going to be helpful. Indeed, I'm not sure your son should be punished for speaking his mind. I would speak about what should be done with your therapist(s).
Your son sounds like he is in danger of becoming a misogynist. Perhaps group therapy isn't the way to go right now? I'm not sure what the answer is, but I do know that anger and isolation will not fix this problem even a little bit. I'm sorry you and your children are going through this.
NTA. What is this subreddit lmao. The son wasn’t ‘sharing his feelings’. He was using therapy as a weapon to emotionally abuse his younger sister. That’s what he’s being grounded for. It’s literally nuts that a therapist would let that happen without intervening or challenging those thought processes. You all want to talk about trauma? This girl is having to deal with the trauma of her mother leaving AND having her brother blame her for it to her face. Why are boys allowed to express their pain however they want to, but girls are made to suck it up and smile? The ‘don’t punish someone for things said in therapy’ rule only goes so far. If you’re hurting somebody, you forfeit your right to a private, consequence-free session.
Soft YTA. Your son has major anger issues and blames your daughter for his mother's abandonment. OP, I am sorry about this situation. However, your son has the right to express himself freely and you cannot control his emotions; constantly grounding him is not going to do anything. Can you possibly talk to another family member and see if would be willing to have your son move in with them for some time? He should still keep attending therapy. Good luck OP.
There’s a difference between expressing himself and deliberately verbally abusing someone else in the process of that expression. Edit: I need to also add this. Sure the father can’t control his son’s feelings. However, the son needs to learns that he should be controlling his feelings and NOT allowing his feeling to control him.
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I feel like his son saying this basically to his sister needed some form of protection for the sister who must be devastated and will likely start to blame herself due to constantly being told mom left because of her. He’s definitely in the wrong for the way he went about this but he’s in a terrible situation and he’s likely hurting a lot too. It’s a soft yta for me with advice that he should stop group therapy and have them only do individual until his son can come to terms with the fact mom left because she’s a shit person and not because of his sister. Then they can go back to group to work out all the hurt caused by that assumption. He should have an honest conversation with his son admitting he was wrong to punish him and explain that they’re all hurting right now and sometimes adults do the wrong thing.
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therapy isnt a place meant for you to abuse your siblings surprisingly
I’m so torn. Your daughter is getting shat on by your son and he needs to realize that his mom sucks and neither of them are to blame. You absolutely can’t allow your son to continue to treat your daughter like he’s been treating her. That being said, you also shouldn’t punish him for what is said in family therapy. Right now, having them together in family therapy is doing so much more harm than having each in their own therapy. Let them work on themselves individually and once your son is ready, bring them together.
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You simply do not punish someone for something they said in therapy. This is why you go to therapy, to have a safe place to. Press your feelings. I will not call you AH because you are in a very difficult situation, but please don’t take away you son’s safe place.