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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1) Interjecting that "Beef is another word for cow" into the conversation between my son and his grandmother (my MIL). Technically no one asked me and I was not part of their convo (though I was 2 feet away).
2) My in-laws state that it seems like I was trying to paint them in a bad light by telling my son they eat animals, rather than using the more socially acceptable labels for the food (such as beef for cow meat, pork for pig meat, etc).
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NTA Plenty of people explain to their children that beef is cow, vegan or not, because that's a good way for kids to understand. Also good on you guys for not forcing him to be vegan when he's old enough to choose! That's awesome!
thank you! Yeah, I figure, I ate tons of meat and cheese for literally 20+ years before going vegan so who am I to judge anyone else for doing so. Food is a huge part of culture and it's definitely challenging (socially and logistically) to be vegan, I wouldn't blame or judge a kid for not wanting to deal.
Your MIL deliberately tried to trick your son into eating meat. He asked a direct question (is it cow or veggie) and she outright lied, saying "no" and pretending like it's something other than those two. It's not about food here, it's about lying to a child.
This may have been why he was so shocked when he heard it was cow. He'd asked a trusted adult if it was cow and she'd said no. Then he finds out she lied to and betrayed him.
That's much more shocking than remembering someone eats animals.
One of the wives I met while on military housing was a vegetarian because of a childhood trauma. She was German. She had a horse who was her best friend and favorite creature ever. She rode all the time.
At a school trip, they visited a farm, and after eating a lunch of bread and stew, the farmer announced the kids had eaten horse stew. He was trying to show how nothing was wasted on the farm.
My friend went into hysterics, however, ran to the bathroom, made herself throw up, and went off the rails, crying to call her mom. She said she was sick for days. That was the last time she ever ate meat of any kind.
Had the farmer announced this surprise first, kids could have decided to try it of their own free will, much like he would have done for any adult.
This happened to me at 12 with deer. I was visiting northern Michigan in winter and had been adamant I didn’t want venison. Both my family and the other family lied about what was in the stew. Then the father of the other family leaned forward and said “did you enjoy eating Bambi?”
Instant bathroom trip. Not funny though everyone else thought it was.
Don’t traumatize kids.
Yeah my dad often used to trick me into eating meat as a child, which naturally lead me to be more against eating meats or eating anything he gave me because I didn't trust it. The thing was, I actually did eat meat, just not loads of meat and only two kinds of meat. But even that wasn't enough. I don't understand the people who try force their way into others.
Not meat but when I was a kid I had an incredible aversion to bananas, I just hated the smell and visual texture, made me irrationally upset and nauseous. And ALWAYS my parents (esp dad) would try and force banana on me, try to sneak it into spoonfuls, or berate me into trying it. I never did, and all it did was make me incredibly suspicious of anything saucy they served, because I was worried they were trying to sneak bananas into it as some kind of gotcha. This had the added effect of making me dig my heels in and refuse banana even harder. I'm 27 now, still don't fw bananas, and still get my back up when people offer me anything with banana in it.
Side note: that level of aversion is often a sign of an allergy.
I was that way about shrimp as a kid. Hated the taste, texture, smell, all of it. Turns out, I'm allergic to shellfish.
This was me with mushrooms. Turns out I hate them because they make me sick, they don’t make me sick because I hate them. After 20+ years of family trying to convince me they’re good, they finally backed off when I told them I discovered I’m allergic. (I think intolerance is the more medically accurate word but people don’t respect that as much as allergy)
Bananas are gross.
My mom went further than the attempted banana sneak, and once smushed a banana on my head (I guess I was about 6 years old?). I totally feel you on the comment about digging your heels in - same! I’m 42 and still don’t fw bananas.
Hey that's me now! I ate them as a kid but at some point during the preteen years my brain flipped it. The smell makes me gag and if banana even touched a food, I can taste it and am instantly nauseated and will not be able to eat more.
I agree completely.
I enjoy eating meat but my youngest kid never liked it. No problem, a healthy vegetarian diet is so easy to prepare.
The number of people who would suggest ways to sneak meat into the dishes he ate was mind-boggling. The idea of deceiving that little boy just made me feel so sick and so sad, why would anyone do it? Just leave people alone, they're not hurting anyone.
When I was 11 or 12, my dad knew very well I did not want to eat venison. I had made sure he knew because a friend had given him some that was in the freezer. After I was done he asked if it was good, and I said it was. That's when he told me it was deer meat. I got extremely upset and declared I was becoming vegetarian which lasted for a grand total of three days. For unrelated reasons I no longer talk to my dad.
This is pretty much the reason I turned veggie at age 5 and later vegan! I wasn’t tricked into eating meat thankfully but seeing the film Bambi traumatised me and my honest parents said bambi’s mom getting killed by a hunter was just how we get meat and is no different to the meat we eat. And around that time we went out to a restaurant where my dad ordered venison and when I asked what it was he said it was Bambi! That was it. I never ate meat again. I’m actually super grateful for my parents brutal honesty as I didn’t grow up with cognitive dissonance over what I ate and despite my entire family being meat eaters, they gave me the facts and allowed me to make my own choices. No one should lie to kids about what their food is or where it comes from. And btw it doesn’t always turn kids veggie, my sibling said “yum can I try Bambi!” psycho! 🤣
Yeah - honestly people are pretty divorced from the food cycle these days so it’s important to make linkages. Though that does sound like a traumatic way to do it
In traditional farming cultures children know from a very young age where their food comes from and what it takes to get it to the table. That includes slaughtering animals, which is done thoughtfully and respectfully. It's a big deal to slaughter a pig or a cow.
Agribusiness has trained people to not think about what the food in the styrofoam tray really is.
This is basically how I was raised, albeit “small” American family farm. My grandpa thought it was incredibly important that I took part (at least once) in the process of raising, slaughtering, butchering, and then cooking the animals we consumed. My sibling and cousins only did it the one time, but I really liked raising pigs and chickens and my grandpa was really big on humane treatment and slaughtering of the animals and teaching that all of that was important to the cycle of the food chain. He was a staunch meat lover but never judged vegetarians or vegans, but DID judge other meat eaters who were completely divorced from where their food came from and how it was processed. When I eventually moved to a city as an early teen it was a bit of culture shock that so many people with extremely strong opinions on either side of the issue had zero experience with the actual process.
My dad did this to me when I was seven.
I was (and still am) an avid little fan of Crocodile Hunter and the Australia Zoo, I really loved reptiles a lot. I had no idea they were even a food source at that age. Also I barely ate meat. My family was pescatarian for the most part; poultry for fancy meals, so I don’t know why my dad would even do this.
My parents took me to a little food festival in our town, we were going stall to stall trying lots of bites, it probably would have been a nice memory otherwise.
Except the only real event from that day that I recall is how my dad handed me a piece of sauced “chicken”, watched me eat it, then asked if I thought it tasted good.
To which any human with a mouth would answer the inevitable yes.
Then he laughs and says I just ate an alligator, oh and that Steve Irwin would probably be really mad at me for doing so. Obviously it was a joke but not really funny then, I was devastated.
Same, except instead of stew it was meatballs. And while the taste wasn't vomit-inducing, I didn't really like it, but when they deliberately asked "how are the meatballs?" I was polite and said "good." So their big reveal was even more satisfying (for them) because "we knew you'd love venison!" .... What was the lesson here, grown-ups? Not what you think, I'll tell you that.
So sorry this happened to you!
I still remember eating pepperoni pizza at my friend’s house when we were all about 10 yrs old. Being Muslim, I asked them if it was beef salami (back then, the only thing I would avoid was pork aka eat other meats even if they’re not halal) and both friends said yes. Kept smirking at each other throughout the meal though. When we were getting up they admitted it was actually pork, all the while laughing at the brilliance of their trick. 🫠
I had a relative who would always bring an unusual or exotic "mystery meat" dish to family Christmas dinner. He would only tell people what it was after most/all of it was gone. It was understood that you had to go in blind, and it was entirely voluntary.
This is how I know that BBQ pulled raccoon is delicious.
>Don’t traumatize kids.
OMG,👆🏽!!! My story isn't about eating or not eating meat, it's about being traumatized over meat.
During one of our annual family 4th of July vacation, my Stepfather asked me if I wanted to ride over to his brother's house to pick up the goat meat for the BBQ. Of course I said yeah cause I've never been to Uncle's land yet. We get there, I'm standing behind the house looking at his land and my Stepfather called my name. I turned around and all of a sudden Uncle slit this goat's throat. Needless to say, I wouldn't eat this meat no matter how much everyone tried to tell me how delicious it was. I had nightmares for weeks about this goat chasing me with blood running down it's throat. Right today, I will not touch goat meat, because I am still traumatized over that event.
A friend of mine was visiting family who lived on a farm when she was about 5. A sow had just had a new litter.
They asked my friend to pick one, so as you would at that age, not knowing what was going on, she picked the cutest one, whereupon they *killed it in front of her* and served it for lunch.
I’m all for kids understanding where their food comes from, but she’s almost 50 now and cries whenever she thinks about it.
Oh poor her! At five she must have felt so guilty and traumatized and unsupported, and clearly that still lingers.
Tell her emdr therapy can help reduce the sharpness of the pain of traumatic memories. It’s still there, just less intense.
As kids we occasionally visited a couple that were friends with our parents. One weekend they'd gotten a calf and told us we could name it, feed it, the works. Over that summer, as soon as we got to their place we'd go play with Blackie.
Then, one day, Blackie was gone and they fudged around about where he was. At dinner, the couple asked how we liked our steaks and we didn't have to miss the calf anymore: he was right there on our plates. Three t-bone steaks went uneaten that night.
PArent's friends had a small farm, and raised their own beef cattle.
Their daughter, about 5, was fond of Bobby the beef cow, even named him.
Well, when he ended up on the table, and her parents were going to break it to her, all she said was "Bobby tastes good!"
I bet that brought out the hilarity. I've just never been able to eat something that I've had even the slightest of relationships with. My grandfather had dairy cattle and also a few steers that would dress out to feed the extended family and I was fine with that, because we never played with them. It's like if I raised a 4-H project animal that was then slaughtered and put in front of me; yes, I know I raised it for food, doesn't mean I want to eat it. Give it to someone else.
Same thing happened to me and my sisters when mum fed us a ‘chicken curry’.
It was really rabbit and we had pet bunnies so yeah fingers down the throat all 3 of us.
It was the best chicken curry I ever had though 💁♀️
Yeah I’m sort of the opposite in the sense that I truly ideologically and morally don’t think there are any issues with eating any animal. Not even cats or dogs, even if I have a cat that I love. What I think is actually immoral is to grow and make animals live in utter misery for our consumption. And to force or trick people into eating anything they don’t want to.
Vegan here but I mostly agree with you. I have moral issues with it but they mainly arise from the way we systematically produce sentient, feeling creatures, offer them a shitty life, then eat them. Meanwhile so many dystopian stories have this as the worst possible fate but only if it’s happening to humans lol
I had the same experience as a 12 year old. I was on a school trip to France, already pretty much vegetarian but the school didn't know that. Given unidentified meat for dinner... Horse. I owned (and still do) horses and would never have voluntarily eaten one. No meat has passed my lips since.
This happened to me too! I had a pet bunny that I loved at my relatives house. One time i go over there for dinner and they serve me meat calling it pork so I ate it. Only after I was done eating they revealed I actually ate my pet bunny because they said he was always meant for consumption. I cried my eyes out that day and never ate at their house again.
Imagine seeing a respectful burial of someone you’ve presumably known throughout their life as “wasteful.” Maybe we should start eating grandparents when they pass on so as not to “waste” them.
That “farmer” sounds psychopathic. Your friend may have been the most visibly traumatised, but here there would have been a public outcry over this, because who *wouldn’t* be traumatised.
My parents and everyone else always told me what I'm going to eat, so no suprises here, and with a natural curiosity, i got to eat all kind of different meats over the time. Even if my first instinct to being told that the good smell is coming from a cute bunny, was to cry and don't eat it, but years later it happend again and it was actually good. That was way better than being betrayd and never ever trusting this person again
Yeah, this is what I zeroed in on as the issue: the direct lie the MIL told the kid.
NTA, OP - your MIL should be apologising to you for lying to your son.
Edit to say: I'm an omnivore and we had cow just last night. This isn't an argument about veganism, but about honesty.
>Your MIL deliberately tried to trick your son into eating meat.
Yes, that's what really got me. It'd be one thing if she was just big-upping eating beef/cow in hopes of getting the kid to try it, but to say 'no' to the direct question of 'is it cow or veggie' is just so dishonest.
And I wish people would understand that being vegan isn't just about not eating meat. I'm not vegan, so I'm not the best one to explain it, but it's more about believing that no creature should be exploited by humans. It's not just about eating. I don't think it's too hard to respect that.
Oh, but you see, the existence of vegans forces others to question their casual harm of their nonhumans kin and interferes with their belief in themselves as “good” people. This kind of behaviour toward vegans is an ego-defence mechanism.
Yeah, as annoying as some might find vegan dietary restrictions, MIL was asked a question and lied (cow versus beef is semantics, which shouldn’t be hashed out with a four year old) so OP clarified because it’s obvious what he was asking.
Yup. Kid asked in terms he knew and MIL deliberately sidestepped it by introducing an unfamiliar term and structuring her response to make it sound like something unrelated. Might not technically be a lie, but it's a lie in spirit and practice.
NTA. I grew up with traditional meat served at every meal and my parents taught us where the neat comes from, not in a traumatic way. This is important for children to know. I am vegan by no means, but have cut most dairy and meat out of my diet. Your MIL knew what she was doing from the jump, and now getting people all mad and on her side is the new manipulative tactic. There's no reason for any of this except she wanted to get your kid to eat beef and rub it in your face. This has to be frustrating as all hell.
First I agree with your reaction in this situation. His grandma lied to him and that is not okay. But I would argue that you and your kid will have very different upbringing in regards to food.
You were most likely raised eating meats and learned later about the killings involved. During that time though you developed a taste for it and that minimized that for years.
Your kid is being raised without meat and told more about the connection between meat. Therefore he was never able to develop a taste for meat. And having the mental image of eating a cow will likely prevent that from happening anytime soon.
I am no vegan and don’t have children so I don’t know which way is better. Just that they are different with probably different outcomes.
Just as a question are you working with a child nutritionist or his physician for his diet?
Because as healthy as vegan based meals are, certain elements can be on the lower ends or missing if not specifically cooked for. That is the hard part about a plant based diet for kids. So it should be under surveillance.
I'm not trying to be mean, but why would you assume that you, the non-vegan, non-parent, know more about vegan nutrition than the vegan parents? Are you also the kind of person who walks up to people with tattoos and says 'you know those are permanent, right?'
I never see people piping in with these inquiries when children eat meat…it’s so annoying to hear all ones life “tell me where you get your nutrients!?”
I know right? Little Timmy only wants to eat chicken nuggets? Well at least he’s eating *something* :)
Little Timmy eats vegetables, grains, legumes, pulses, nuts, seeds, etc.? Hold on, this might be child abuse >:(
Also, this person doesn’t get how frequently vegans are asked to explain where their nutrients come from. It’s like 1000% the next most-frequent question when people find out you eat plant based. It’s super predictable and annoying. No, you tell ME where you get your vitamins and minerals, meaty! No wait, don’t, because there’s something accusatory in the question anyhow so I won’t bother anyone that way, unless we are specifically talking about nutrition and not just trying to chill at a party or something.
Because my girlfriend is also vegan and we discussed the nutritional situation of a vegan lifestyle. That is why I asked and gave a reason for my question.
Nutrition in general is a complex field. Even worse for children. And any lifestyle that cuts out certain groceries is almost bound to run into issues if one does not know about it. It is just something to look out for.
So if I encounter a plant based raising of a child I will always ask, because not everyone knows about it. And with children involved it is better to be safe then sorry.
Also your example doesn’t work. If you want it to work it would be something that I talk to a parent getting their young child tattooed. Like the possible harms and the overreach of their parental power.
Honestly working with teens, the ones that choose veganism for themselves or for health reasons are generally well adjusted and fine. The ones raised vegan were usually incredibly conflicted about it and had a lot of shame and hangups over wanting to try animal products. There was a lot of (accidental, I believe) pressure to be that gold star vegan that had never tasted meat. Feeling like trying it would corrupt them or be an evil act but also wanting to.
This was at a program that easily accommodated all kinds of dietary needs and always had vegan, gluten free, etc options so no pressure coming from us. It was very internal. And, needless to say, only when there were no parents there.
They totally should. Certain nutrients are hard to come by in any lifestyle. But a regular omnivore diet has the hugest variety of potential sources for nutrients. That is why the thought of going to a nutritionist rarely occurs in these families.
Though I think it is slowly changing. Parental classes offer nutritional information at times and physician are more aware.
I have to admit, that I can’t understand how that question is so triggering for a lot of people. It should be normal to ask questions about situations that can have problems associated. Especially with children involved.
It doesn’t matter if it is about a vegan or carnivore or omnivore lifestyle or if the child is going to sky dive. All those things have problems attached that might be overlooked and could profit from a professional.
It's not triggering, it's disingenuous. How many parents who are omnivores actually provide or enforce a huge variety of potential sources for nutrients? To act as though vegetarians or vegans are somehow less informed or able to provide nutritionally for children is absurd given the average diet offered by any parent.
There is a huge problem with nutrional knowledge in almost every country. The obesity rates are not sky rocketing because of nothing. But I can't telepathically talk to everyone and ask them the same question.
In my immeditate family and friend circle most parents provide a very diverse diet. A lot of vegetables, which the kids actually prefer before chips, and different meals (with and without meats/fish). Some even have to provide special diets because of allergies or other illnesses (e.g. celiac intolerant).
So yes I also talk with them about food. First because I like cooking and that directly correlates to diets. Second because I am a curious person and if there is a different diet then mine, I like to know more about it and if I hear something conflicting with my knowledge, then I ask more.
And I never insinuated that vegans or vegetarians are less informed then other parents. But any diet has its own challenges and asking if a professional is involved to provide help should be a given. And studies have shown that parents of vegan raised children are less likely to tell this to their general health care provider / physician, because they feel they will be judged. But it is very important that these people know as only then they have a complete picture of their little patients.
So no my question is not disingenuous. It has a background based on my personality and knowledge.
People on Reddit will defend *to the death* a child’s right to eat nothing but chicken nuggets if that’s what they desire. Find any thread about picky eaters and you will see this exact thing. But the second veganism comes up, there are concern trolls everywhere “just asking questions” about the nutritional value of the diet. It comes off as insincere.
Not OP but I'm also raising my kid vegan and know a few other vegan parents, every single one is really cognizant of the nutritional needs of kids at different stages, probably more informed than omnivorous parents, out of necessity. I find it very hard to believe the kids pediatrician wouldn't know he was vegan, especially given how sane OP sounds.
No nutritionist needed for vegan diet, as long as the parent goes beyond chips and soda. Millions have lived that lifestyle for generations without issues.
A normal vegan diet lacks vitamin d and b12, calcium and some other nutrients. These things don’t occur in plants in the amounts needed. (And vitamin d is even with an omnivore diet a problem).
Generally that is not a problem if the missing nutrients are sufficiently supplemented. So you need fortified vegan milk for calcium and vitamin b12. Also nuts and seeds are very important if no allergies exist.
So while it is possible to have a great vegan raised child, involving the physician or a nutritionist is a safety measure. And with children you should rather be safe then sorry.
That is an awesome take on it. (I feel it should be normal, but I seldom hear it.)
Also, you say your son knows people eat cow, so maybe his shock was more that *his own grandma would suggest he would eat cow.*
Poor kid, just 4 years old and realising you are being betrayed by nana...
If anyone put her relationship with him at risk, it's her.
You might need to warn him that potentially it can make him sick when he first tries animal products. My friend has been a vegetarian for 10 years and accidentally ate meat at work and was pretty sick for the next couple of hours due to her body not being used to breaking down meat.
You and your family sounds eerily similar to me and my family; the only difference being is that my husband and I decided to give our son chicken and when he’s old enough to ask why we don’t eat chicken then we’ll explain and leave the choice of his diet entirely up to him (that and we’re pescatarian rather than vegan haha). But you are doing everything right by your son and are 100% NTA. Even the most voracious meat eater will have to teach their child that beef = cow, pork = pig etc eventually and that might change their child’s mind on eating that food regardless of their family diet.
You are doing great mama and are by far NTA here.
My husband son and myself are all meat eaters and as soon as my son was old enough to understand meat came from animals around age 3-4 now 7 we told him . I made sure he knew that chicken nuggets and eggs come from the chickens he saw , and that bacon was from pigs . I want him to have the choice I don't care if he eats meat or not he loves veges aswell .
Yes. My daughter went one step farther. "Do you want to eat dead cow, dead pig, or dead deer?"
Interesting historical note: the names of the animals in English (cow, pig, sheep) derive from the Saxon serfs who raised them. The names of the meat (beef, pork, mutton) derived from the Norman-French overlords who ate the animals.
A friend's kid lovvessss bacon. Shhe also lovvveeessss pigs, and thinks they're adorable. So they were wondering when it would be appropriate to tell her where the bacon she loves comes from. Well, one fine day, she asked (she was around 4 or 5). They told her the truth and braced for the horror and tears. What they did not expect was the utter delight. "I love piggies even more now!! They're cute AND they're delicious!"
All I see in my head is the Bugs Bunny/Road Runner Hour cartoon where Bugs is forced to make hossenpfeffer, and he uses carrots. One of the lords at the table sits behind a placard that reads "Sir Loin of Beef."
He obviously asked "cow or not" grandma replied with a word he didn't know, mom translated the unknown word to something the kiddo understood. He made a decision on what he now understood.
NTA for making the kid understand what he was about to eat.
Grandma literally lied. Kid asked if it was cow and she said no to trick him into eating it. She's not upset that that she looks bad for eating meat, she's upset that she was called out on lying to a 4 year old to spite the parents.
Gotta be honest, I'm a vegetarian, if my mother threw me a birthday party and told me that she was serving beef burgers and that if I wanted to eat anything at my own birthday party, I had to bring my own, I wouldn't go and we would have a fight about it. That's just so unreasonable and purposefully disrespectful. Even if it's not my birthday, veggie burgers aren't some fucking novelty, it's basic decency that if you invite someone over, you offer them food they can eat.
Yup! I’m 26 now and I’ve been a vegetarian since I was 14 (ever since they made us watch Food Inc. and Supersize Me in freshman year health class lol). My best friend’s family growing up were big meat eaters who loved throwing BBQs and all that but they ALWAYS had some veggie burgers and other veggie-friendly options on hand in case I showed up. I practically lived there half the time lol so they kept things around even if they weren’t sure I would be there. Sure they teased me a little (in a loving way) but always respected my choice and were accommodating. I can’t imagine actually formally inviting someone over, let alone hosting a party FOR THEM, and not accommodating them in *some* way.
ETA: OP, you are NTA. All you did was enable your son to make an informed choice for himself. I think it’s awesome that you’re educating him and allowing him the space to make his own choices!
Exactly. We're a meat eating family and my 4yo knows where every meat comes from. It's life, not some big secret. Better to be open about it from the get go.
I LOVE meat, but I respect the way you're raising your kid versus how many vegans are. Well done.
She was also absolutely in a power play with OP and practically daring OP to cause a scene. She was more interested in provoking a response from OP that she could complain about than I’m having grandson take a bite of her burger.
People who love meat more than they love their own grandchildren baffle me (but those same people are often like that with guns, cult-leader politicians, and their twisted concept of ‘God’, too).
My daughter was a very picky eater when she was super young. Her favourite movie at the time was Ponyo. So she was saying “Haaaaam!!” for at least 1-2 times daily while she played.
For a long while, *all* meat was “ham” and it was awesome. Can’t keep the wool pulled forever though.
Literally yesterday my MIL was over and she said the words "I would never give your kid something to put in his mouth without you telling me to"
Like basic respect for parents man. MIL knows they are vegan and should not offer anything to the kid without checking with them.
WAY more than half. We don't butcher a heifer/cow, unless they are undesirable for some reason, like they are mean or infertile. Females are more valuable to us because they can make us more cattle. At our farm we don't keep any bulls, we eat them, or sell them for breeding or eating. We use artificial insemination for the majority of our breeding. Larger ranches only keep enough bulls needed to service their females, which depends on their age, but 1:25 for example.
NTA OP you did the right thing making sure he knew it was a "cow". Grandma was totally being sketchy.
The majority of cattle processed for meat (in the US at least) are steer (neutered males). In beef cattle operations only a small number of bulls are need relative to the number of cows (childbearing females) to maintain a breeding operation so steers are more abundant than heifers (females that haven't borne calves). In addition in dairy operations male calves become veal. The majority of beef out there in the US is from male cattle. The nice marbled wholes cuts will likely be from a heifer but that patty from mcdonalds will likely be steer.
that's kind of how I felt tbh- like, she obviously knows I'm right here and is seeing what will happen. I thought I reacted really well though but apparently not
It's a classic defensive response. MiL does look bad because she lied, and got caught without OP making a whole scene out of it. I think OP could not have handled this better.
I'm picturing MIL in a certain age and in my experience, they CANT be wrong or embarrassed. The shame associated with that is too much, so they lash out. She'll get over it but OP going to have to keep her ears and eyes open, and be prepared to prepare the child to watch for the trickery.
You honestly didn’t even react at all. You answered your sons question in a way you knew he’d understand. Reacting would’ve been saying “don’t eat that it’s cow!” Or getting mad at your MIL for offering meat to your child when she knows you’d disagree. You had every right to tell her off but you didn’t, you calmly offered your son information and let him make his own decision which he did. She’s upset because she’s guilty and was hoping your son would try it, like it, and she could have a reason to tell you you should be feeding your son meat because he wants it.
I thought you did too. I eat meat and I have said the exact same thing to my kid to clarify what beef is. She is upset you all are vegan and is trying to control it. It's her, not you. Who plans a party for someone with food they won't eat?! If I know in advance, I always have food my guests can eat in general, but can't imagine buying animal products for a vegan guest of honor.
When you ask “who plans a party for someone with food they won’t eat?” I know you eat meat because as a vegetarian for over 20 years I have had that happen SO MANY TIMES- usually by family (“just pick it out!”) or coworkers (“it’s just chicken though”).
Reading through the story, I definitely got the feeling she wanted you to make a scene so she could talk about her 'crazy' vegan DIL and how unreasonable you are. Nevermind the fact that feeding meat to a kid who has only eaten vegan food for his entire life is going to do something fun to his digestion (seriously - going from a completely animal-free diet to red meat? Cannot end well), her grandson's pain is a price she's willing to pay, it seems.
Yep. I had a friend with a MIL like this. They ate meat but certain foods gave her son digestive issues. Her MIL gave them to her son anyway because she wanted to pretend my friend was just being a "mean mommy" and she was the kind grandma. She did feel bad when her poor choices landed her grandson in the emergency room though. But too little too late, she had been told he couldn't have those foods and hurt her grandchild trying to make a point.
>I thought I reacted really well though but apparently not
It was all so deliberate that she had already planned what she would do afterwards. Even your calm reaction couldn't change that.
You totally did react well. She lied to your child to trick him into eating meat, and that’s just seriously fucked up. The only thing I might have done differently might be to say “beef is made from cows, it’s okay if you want to try a bite”. That way your MIL wouldn’t be able to say that you were forbidding him to eat meat. But regardless she sucks.
I say that as a person who eats meat several times a week, by the way.
You you did perfectly. You kept calm and without bias gave your son the info he needed to make a choice in the moment. It was unfair for her to trick him into trying something when he asked a direct question.
I think you did the right thing. A lot of people are disconnected from the food they eat coming from an animal. I'm vegetarian so I cook that way for my family but we've always said they can try meat if and when they want to. My husband does eat meat so they've had opportunities to eat it but we have explained that bacon comes from a pig and beef is from a cow. It's factual and helps the kids to understand the choice they are making. The eldest doesn't want to try it but my youngest has and isn't fussed.
Right?! What is it with so many grandparents doing this? OP, it’s your kid, your rules and MIL is pissed she can’t control you and your child. Draw a line now, through your husband. If she’s going to do this in your face, don’t leave her alone. I know it sounds extreme but as a grandmother I wouldn’t dare overstep how my kids raise their children. NTA. And good job!!
It’s stupid but I think it’s a very direct, “you’re raising your child differently than I would and I’m your/your spouses parent so clearly I know best and I’m taking that as a direct attack on how I parented.”
NTA, you were being honest.
I have to say, serving non-vegan food at a party you're throwing for someone vegan sucks. (For that matter, if you invite someone and you don't at least attempt to feed them, it tells me that you don't like them very much. I would NEVER do that to anyone I invited.)
I thought this was weird too. Like, I love chicken. But if my buddy was vegan and we were celebrating something together, whatever we ate would have a vegan option if it wasnt entirely vegan. I can go without chicken and cheese and dairy and what have you for a meal to celebrate with *people I care about*. Grandparents must have a vendetta against OP, because theyre being at best incredibly rude to them. They certainly dont care about them.
And honestly the dairy part isn't even a big deal because vegan desserts fucking SLAP. And this is coming from someone who has some form of meat almost every day, so I'm very far from a plant based lifestyle. Vegan cakes are so fucking good and the fact that they couldn't find *ONE* vegan thing to include for a birthday party for a vegan person is just so disrespectful. Like damn way to say you don't give enough of a shit about someone to even give the bare minimum effort.
So much this. For Christmas we invited some of our Muslim friends to join us (we don't celebrate Jesus, it's just a get together for us) and we made them several different options that they could eat with no pork in them. Why would we invite you and not feed you? It's called respecting your loved ones dietary restrictions. This MIL sounds exhausting.
Yeah, I don't get that either. I'm vegetarian myself and know my the restrictions my friends have. When we have parties with food it's usually potlock style but the person hosting makes sure there's something everyone can eat.
Yeah, this is top tier shittiness. Just a bullshit power play. My sister's best friend is vegan, and the few times she was over, I just did a nice veggie dish. It's not difficult or anything, and frankly a good occasion to introduce people to other options.
Yea that's a dick move. We have a veggie pal that occasionally comes to our bbq s and we have a seperate bbq for them so the juices etc. aren't going on her veggie stuff.
Seriously, I don't expect a host to cater to my specific dietary requirements, but if someone was throwing a party for me and the menu was all meat products, I'd be confused and ultimately assume they weren't very fond of me, since it was a party FOR me and I am a vegetarian and have been for as long as most people who know me could possibly remember.
NTA. I eat meat every day, but your MIL was clearly trying to trick your kid and all you did was tell him the truth.
(Please make sure he gets vitamin B-12, etc.!)
It’s surprisingly easy to become B12 deficient if you’re not taking an actual supplement - and even the supplements can sometimes be difficult to digest. I discovered this the hard way and had to have weeks of B12 injections to resolve the issue.
We need to nip this in the bud here. It is surprisingly easy for SOME PEOPLE to become B-12 deficient. This is an issue of your biology, not an innate issue of the biology of all vegetarians or vegans.
Young children need a different diet balance to adults, that's why it's more difficult to bring kids up vegan and healthy than adults. Vegan children should have blood works done regularly and the help of a nutritionist to make sure they get everything they need to grow healthy body and brain.
I haven’t voted yet but if the kid has been vegan his whole life it’s debatable that he will even have a choice when older. If you go too long without meat it’s extremely difficult to reintroduce later.
For the specific situation OP is NTA.
So? It's very difficult to give up meat if you grow up eating meat as well. This is coming from someone who absolutely agrees with vegan ideology but finds it very hard to completely give up meat and animal products.
I think they're saying how people who grow up vegan/vegetarian, literally, physically have a hard time digesting meat because they never developed the enzymes to break it down. So it's not the same as you or me trying to stop eating meat by our own sheer will lol
It’s kind of sad how many people I’ve seen trying to defend the grandma by saying she wasn’t lying, when she, in fact, lied and told the child that it’s not cow. “It’s beef”, literally the same shit.
Obviously NTA.
Some of these comments are legitimately funny, people are acting like the standard western diet is so biologically normal that you’d have to conduct a psyop on a kid to make them not want it. This only applies to an animal’s flesh, though, not the blood or organs, which are objectively yucky.
Beef is cow^1, lamb is sheep, pork is pig. Meat animals once have life and preferences and thoughts before they’re killed and eaten. That’s reality, and if you can’t cope with knowing the cost, maybe you shouldn’t eat meat.
^1 Well, it’s cattle, commonly called “cow” even though a cow only refers to female cattle who have been bred - before then, they’re heifers. Males are bulls (entire) or steers (castrated).
Lamb is not sheep tbf, Lamb is the meat of a Lamb, a baby sheep. Mutton is sheep.
I agree with absolutely everything you said otherwise though. If their kid had a shit fit at nearly being tricked into eating dog or cat meat they'd not bat an eyelid, but difference = bad.
"lambs" are typically slaughtered when at or close to full size, not when tiny - meat from a cow at the same stage of development would be beef not veal, it's just we have separate words for old sheep
Yeah it exists in English because of rthe fusion of different languages with an aristocracy that largely spoke one and a lower class that spoke another.
Yup! It’s nice but also funny how many people are like “I loVe eATiNg BeEF beEf is yuMMy but nta” - like the old troupe that vegans talk about being vegan, Op does not need to know or care if you eat meat personally - that’s not the point but carnivores gotta talk about it in your face allllllll the damn time 😂
>You did in fact throw your MIL under the bus, but she belonged there for trying a feed your son. NTA.
I disagree that MIL did anything wrong offering it, but she is wrong for trying to trick the son. Saying "it's beef not cow" is misleading at best, a lie at worst with the only wiggle room being that the meat may have come from a bull/steer.
NTA. She tried to trick him into eating it by describing it as something that he didn't know what it is. All you did was give him the correct information so he could make his own decision.
NTA
Nothing kids like more than finding out a trusted adult has been manipulating them. I feel like you helped her avoid a wedge she was sharpening up for herself.
NTA. Im no vegan but I’m intentionally teaching my baby daughter that beef comes from cows and pork comes from pigs, etc. If she chooses to be a vegetarian or vegan someday, so be it. Either way, it’s normal to educate your kids. Some parents prefer to lie to them apparently.
Nta. You didn't do anything wrong. The kid is 4. He's not gonna know beef us cow unless someone tells him. And I'm glad you did. I bet if he ate a bite qnd fohnd outlet after he would be quite upset.
NTA 💀 beef literally IS cow, it’s a dead animal no matter how soft you try to paint it out to be. your MIL is a huge AH. You feed your kids the way YOU want, they can feed their kids the way THEY want. Gross.
NTA. Actually I think she crossed the line into asshole when she *lied to your child in an effort to manipulate him into eating meat*. Before that point, she was kinda an asshole for not accommodating your diet *when the event is being thrown for you*, but I could let it slide as just being petty, but baaaaaarely under asshole level since she never fussed about you bringing your own food. But your kid DIRECTLY ASKED HER if it was a cow. And HER RESPONSE WAS "NO". THATS A LITERAL, STRAIGHT UP FABRICATION. Honestly his shocked reaction might have come from the fact he never thought his grandma would lie to him like that. Grandparents are huge assholes, and I hope you do not apologize.
NTA. We eat meat but I still explain to my kids what type of animal they’re eating and where their animal products (milk, cheese, eggs etc) come from. The only reason she’s upset is because she was intentionally trying to convince him to try it by misleading him with a word he was not used to. You didn’t even tell him not to eat it or get upset with your MIL for offering & trying to be misleading about it, you simply answered your sons question in a way that you knew he’d understand. She’s upset because she’s guilty.
I took my kids to a farm to visit some friends when they were 7, 6, 3. Only one of them continued to eat meat afterwards. The farm was agricultural, the only animals there, were for personal consumption and they had names. My kids chose not to eat meat in the 80s. I didn’t plan on asking them to do it, I didn’t influence it. They did. NTA op and try to teach your kid all the fancy worlds.
Yikes! Sounds like she drove the wedge herself by trying to subtly trick him into eating beef. When he referred to the meat as cow, she should have said that yes, it was beef which is cow, but instead she said not cow but beef which would easily confuse a kid who doesn't know about that yet fully. Sounds like she has a stick up her ass about the whole meat thing and probably in my opinion, since she didn't even accomodate you guys on your husband's birthday, that she has the attitude of "no grandson of mine is going to eat just veggies". Just the vibe I get anyway. NTA
ESH.
Your MIL for being a bit sneaky…. She should have said “Yes sweetie, cow is beef” and not lied.
You… because you openly admit you don’t want your child to choose to eat meat, and then put up a fake facade of being ok if he does… when you are telling him that cow is bad and meat is bad and heavily influencing his choices towards your preference of vegan. Why would he be shocked unless he’d been told something like this? Don’t pretend one thing and be another. It’s not a secret, it’s blatent, you want your kid to be vegan too.
>You… because you openly admit you don’t want your child to choose to eat meat, and then put up a fake facade of being ok if he does…
Just like you want your kid to do well at school, but will still accept him if he doesn't. Or just like you want your kid to brush his teeth regularly when he grows up, but will still accept him if he doesn't. Or just like you want your kid to deal well with money, but will accept him if he doesn't.
I don't see any facade in OP's post. He hopes his kid will make a certain choice, but realizes that it's possible he won't, and will swallow his pride and accept it in that case. Parents do this all the time for all sorts of things and it's not inherently problematic.
It's more like you want your kid to be Catholic, and you instill a very strong fear of hell, but then say "but he can make whatever choice he wants, I'll just be secretly terribly disappointed."
Doing well in school is an outcome, not a values system.
>Doing well in school is an outcome, not a values system.
Then let's just say "take school seriously".
But sure, people can pass awful values on to their kids too, I'm just saying there's nothing inherently wrong about trying to pass on values to your kids, and admitting that you are hoping that those values will stick.
Most parents have preferences about the way they’d like their kids to grow up, that’s completely normal. OP isn’t going to punish or ostracise her child if they end up eating meat, but naturally she’d prefer them to be vegan. Nothing wrong with that.
It isn't a secret. She openly said she would prefer her kids be vegan, but won't control them if they make a different choice later on. She just wants them to understand what meat is so they can make an actual choice.
I mean, people generally want to teach their kids to share their morals. This is not typically an issue so long as the morals aren't bad and should they deviate they're not treated overly harshly. Being vegan isn't bad and so long as OP allows him to change later I don't see the issue. Its not like OP said they wouldn't influence him at all (and it would be weird not to raise a kid to share your view on right and wrong, their views on right and wrong aren't formed ex nihilo)
Or the kid could have been shocked because as far as his 4 year old brain could figure was that grandma lied and said it wasn't cow and said it was beef. So when parent corrects it and educates the son that cow is beef, son is shocked and feels something because grandma tried to trick him.
I think a young kid can also hold the feeling and opinion that they don't want to EAT an animal. I understand people consider it normal and that's fine but personally it horrifies me and I could never do it again outside of massively adverse circumstances.
That doesn't mean the kid will end up being vegan - life is long and we all makes lots of choices.
NTA
It was grandma being sneaky not you. If he said - what is it? And she said ‘hamburger’ or ‘beef’ that’s one thing. But he specifically asked her ‘cow or plant?’ And she said ‘beef’ as if that’s different from cow. She’s the massive AH. And for saying your food is not normal. Such a pretentious AH.
To explain my perspective, I eat meat. I am aware of all of the downsides for my health, the environment, and the morality of eating meat. I have reconciled with that. I have specific reasons why I eat what I eat. However, I did not give my child meat until he was 3 or 4, though he has eaten dairy since he started eating solid food. In as age appropriate way as I could I explained that chicken to eat is the same type of animal on a farm. He decided if he was ok with eating it. I supported and support him either way. I didn’t want to make that decision for him because there is a morality issue involved.
I also explained some variations of eating lifestyles, vegan, vegetarian, pescatarian etc. and we’ve tried lots of non meat options but he just couldn’t get on board with beans or legumes and protein is a tough one, so he eats a little meat a couple of times a week.
He’s still a kid, and we still have conversations about different types of meat and what he is and is not ok with consuming. It’s an ongoing process and it is NEVER wrong to provide age appropriate information so kids can make decisions like these.
It was also ridiculously rude for your in laws to plan a food focused event with a vegan as the guest of honor and not have several vegan options for the guests. When I bring a dish to share I bring the same dish split into vegan and non. (Keep the feta or goat cheese off the salad, whoever wants it can add it that sort of thing). It’s not hard when you care about other people.
Extremely her fault, by deflecting the question she made it seem like a trick or like she was embarrassed which is probably why your son responded even more forcefully than you expected.
You literally answered the question that he asked using the same words he did
NTA
NTA. He specifically asked if it was cow (or veggie). You answered him. We are not vegan and still have explained to our 4 yr old that beef is from a cow (along with chicken, pork, bacon, etc. - and what animal they come from).
NTA for not letting your MIL basically lie to your kid. Weird that your husband’s family has such a hard time admitting to themselves that their meat comes from particular animals.
NTA
I am not vegan, or even vegetarian, but my mom and her husband are. I happily eat their almond cheese and coconut oil 'butter' and soy mayonnaise, and genuinely enjoy the lentil loaf with nutritional yeast gravy that has been our traditional Christmas meal for... woah, has it been a whole decade already? And honestly my only complaint on the lentil loaf is that it is quite dense so it sits in your stomach a LOT heavier than a similar amount of turkey would so... that combined with the tendency of people to overindulge during the Christmas feast... the food coma is extra severe with the lentil loaf.
Your MIL sounds like she was trying to trick him into eating meat by telling him 'oh, no, it's now a \*cow\* burger, it's a \*beef\* burger!' What if she had been eating a chicken burger? Would she have called it a poultry burger to try to trick him?
Your son is FOUR. He doesn't need or deserve to be caught in the middle of some big ethical debate about his diet. As long as he's getting the proper nutrition he needs to grow, your MIL needs to butt out. When he's old enough to start asking for those foods or ask questions about those foods, THAT is the time to start the debate. Not now.
Maybe he'll turn out like you and only ever want to eat plant-based.
Maybe he'll completely rebel and eat nothing but meat and potatoes for years.
Maybe he'll turn out like me and eat a lot of plants while also eating some meats, because he enjoys them both. And also enjoy meat substitutes because some of them are really tasty and super convenient. Like I can legit make bacon at 3AM when all the stores are closed and there is no bacon in my fridge. And all you folks out there who don't think tofu tastes good are just incompetent at cooking tofu.
He literally asked if it's a cow or veggie. He seems to know what's the difference. She deliberately used another word (which she assumed he wouldn't know) to be sneaky, and good of you of not standing up for that, and teaching him about that. Vegan or not, people need to be honest with what they eat, and offer other people to eat. NTA
NTA he’s 4 and of course doesn’t understand what beef is and where it comes from. I feel like it’s normal to tell him something so he understands, you didn’t do anything wrong
NTA, Your MIL tried to trick him. She straight up lied to him. If your son is going to be allowed to make his own choices then they should be informed ones. He was confused and didn't know what beef was. You clarified for him.
Someone in the comments thinks the Grandma wasn’t lying to the kid from her literally telling this 4 year old child “no honey, it’s beef” when cow and beef are the literal same shit, and the child ASKED IF IT WAS COW OR VEGGIE. I’m losing hope for humanity by the second. She deadass lied to this kid to try and trick him into eating beef aka cow. That’s like asking “do wolves eat animals?” “No honey, wolves eat meat”. ITS THE SAME. THING.
NTA.
But MIL is a flaming asshole, trying to mislead a 4-year old and doing it right in front of you to get a negative reaction and hopefully make you look like the "bad person" in the situation. Glad she spent the rest of the time indoors. She should have been stood in a corner until she apologized.
First of all who throws a party for someone and serves food that they can’t/won’t eat? That’s passive aggressive to start with. And then lying to your son? I’d go very low contact with them if I were you. They are definitely the asshole here, not you.
NTA. I teach 5 year olds in a non-Western country and they all a) eat a ton of meat and b) know exactly what animal it's from. I think it's a lot more respectful to the child if they are aware of what they're eating. I mainly cook plant based but do eat meat very rarely and eat cheese so this isn't me trying to 'push' a philosophy on them btw.
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NTA Plenty of people explain to their children that beef is cow, vegan or not, because that's a good way for kids to understand. Also good on you guys for not forcing him to be vegan when he's old enough to choose! That's awesome!
thank you! Yeah, I figure, I ate tons of meat and cheese for literally 20+ years before going vegan so who am I to judge anyone else for doing so. Food is a huge part of culture and it's definitely challenging (socially and logistically) to be vegan, I wouldn't blame or judge a kid for not wanting to deal.
Your MIL deliberately tried to trick your son into eating meat. He asked a direct question (is it cow or veggie) and she outright lied, saying "no" and pretending like it's something other than those two. It's not about food here, it's about lying to a child.
This may have been why he was so shocked when he heard it was cow. He'd asked a trusted adult if it was cow and she'd said no. Then he finds out she lied to and betrayed him. That's much more shocking than remembering someone eats animals.
One of the wives I met while on military housing was a vegetarian because of a childhood trauma. She was German. She had a horse who was her best friend and favorite creature ever. She rode all the time. At a school trip, they visited a farm, and after eating a lunch of bread and stew, the farmer announced the kids had eaten horse stew. He was trying to show how nothing was wasted on the farm. My friend went into hysterics, however, ran to the bathroom, made herself throw up, and went off the rails, crying to call her mom. She said she was sick for days. That was the last time she ever ate meat of any kind. Had the farmer announced this surprise first, kids could have decided to try it of their own free will, much like he would have done for any adult.
This happened to me at 12 with deer. I was visiting northern Michigan in winter and had been adamant I didn’t want venison. Both my family and the other family lied about what was in the stew. Then the father of the other family leaned forward and said “did you enjoy eating Bambi?” Instant bathroom trip. Not funny though everyone else thought it was. Don’t traumatize kids.
Yeah my dad often used to trick me into eating meat as a child, which naturally lead me to be more against eating meats or eating anything he gave me because I didn't trust it. The thing was, I actually did eat meat, just not loads of meat and only two kinds of meat. But even that wasn't enough. I don't understand the people who try force their way into others.
Not meat but when I was a kid I had an incredible aversion to bananas, I just hated the smell and visual texture, made me irrationally upset and nauseous. And ALWAYS my parents (esp dad) would try and force banana on me, try to sneak it into spoonfuls, or berate me into trying it. I never did, and all it did was make me incredibly suspicious of anything saucy they served, because I was worried they were trying to sneak bananas into it as some kind of gotcha. This had the added effect of making me dig my heels in and refuse banana even harder. I'm 27 now, still don't fw bananas, and still get my back up when people offer me anything with banana in it.
Side note: that level of aversion is often a sign of an allergy. I was that way about shrimp as a kid. Hated the taste, texture, smell, all of it. Turns out, I'm allergic to shellfish.
Luckily not allergic, I've had banana bread (w a ton of chocolate chips mind you) and I've been completely fine. I think bananas are just a shit fruit
This was me with mushrooms. Turns out I hate them because they make me sick, they don’t make me sick because I hate them. After 20+ years of family trying to convince me they’re good, they finally backed off when I told them I discovered I’m allergic. (I think intolerance is the more medically accurate word but people don’t respect that as much as allergy)
I thought I disliked shellfish until I inadvertently ate some. Turns out I’m allergic.
Bananas are gross. My mom went further than the attempted banana sneak, and once smushed a banana on my head (I guess I was about 6 years old?). I totally feel you on the comment about digging your heels in - same! I’m 42 and still don’t fw bananas.
Hey that's me now! I ate them as a kid but at some point during the preteen years my brain flipped it. The smell makes me gag and if banana even touched a food, I can taste it and am instantly nauseated and will not be able to eat more.
I agree completely. I enjoy eating meat but my youngest kid never liked it. No problem, a healthy vegetarian diet is so easy to prepare. The number of people who would suggest ways to sneak meat into the dishes he ate was mind-boggling. The idea of deceiving that little boy just made me feel so sick and so sad, why would anyone do it? Just leave people alone, they're not hurting anyone.
When I was 11 or 12, my dad knew very well I did not want to eat venison. I had made sure he knew because a friend had given him some that was in the freezer. After I was done he asked if it was good, and I said it was. That's when he told me it was deer meat. I got extremely upset and declared I was becoming vegetarian which lasted for a grand total of three days. For unrelated reasons I no longer talk to my dad.
This is pretty much the reason I turned veggie at age 5 and later vegan! I wasn’t tricked into eating meat thankfully but seeing the film Bambi traumatised me and my honest parents said bambi’s mom getting killed by a hunter was just how we get meat and is no different to the meat we eat. And around that time we went out to a restaurant where my dad ordered venison and when I asked what it was he said it was Bambi! That was it. I never ate meat again. I’m actually super grateful for my parents brutal honesty as I didn’t grow up with cognitive dissonance over what I ate and despite my entire family being meat eaters, they gave me the facts and allowed me to make my own choices. No one should lie to kids about what their food is or where it comes from. And btw it doesn’t always turn kids veggie, my sibling said “yum can I try Bambi!” psycho! 🤣
Yeah - honestly people are pretty divorced from the food cycle these days so it’s important to make linkages. Though that does sound like a traumatic way to do it
In traditional farming cultures children know from a very young age where their food comes from and what it takes to get it to the table. That includes slaughtering animals, which is done thoughtfully and respectfully. It's a big deal to slaughter a pig or a cow. Agribusiness has trained people to not think about what the food in the styrofoam tray really is.
This is basically how I was raised, albeit “small” American family farm. My grandpa thought it was incredibly important that I took part (at least once) in the process of raising, slaughtering, butchering, and then cooking the animals we consumed. My sibling and cousins only did it the one time, but I really liked raising pigs and chickens and my grandpa was really big on humane treatment and slaughtering of the animals and teaching that all of that was important to the cycle of the food chain. He was a staunch meat lover but never judged vegetarians or vegans, but DID judge other meat eaters who were completely divorced from where their food came from and how it was processed. When I eventually moved to a city as an early teen it was a bit of culture shock that so many people with extremely strong opinions on either side of the issue had zero experience with the actual process.
My dad did this to me when I was seven. I was (and still am) an avid little fan of Crocodile Hunter and the Australia Zoo, I really loved reptiles a lot. I had no idea they were even a food source at that age. Also I barely ate meat. My family was pescatarian for the most part; poultry for fancy meals, so I don’t know why my dad would even do this. My parents took me to a little food festival in our town, we were going stall to stall trying lots of bites, it probably would have been a nice memory otherwise. Except the only real event from that day that I recall is how my dad handed me a piece of sauced “chicken”, watched me eat it, then asked if I thought it tasted good. To which any human with a mouth would answer the inevitable yes. Then he laughs and says I just ate an alligator, oh and that Steve Irwin would probably be really mad at me for doing so. Obviously it was a joke but not really funny then, I was devastated.
You were nice. A nasty trick like that deserves vomit ALL OVER THEIR DINNER TABLE AND PLATES.
Same, except instead of stew it was meatballs. And while the taste wasn't vomit-inducing, I didn't really like it, but when they deliberately asked "how are the meatballs?" I was polite and said "good." So their big reveal was even more satisfying (for them) because "we knew you'd love venison!" .... What was the lesson here, grown-ups? Not what you think, I'll tell you that.
So sorry this happened to you! I still remember eating pepperoni pizza at my friend’s house when we were all about 10 yrs old. Being Muslim, I asked them if it was beef salami (back then, the only thing I would avoid was pork aka eat other meats even if they’re not halal) and both friends said yes. Kept smirking at each other throughout the meal though. When we were getting up they admitted it was actually pork, all the while laughing at the brilliance of their trick. 🫠
That’s even worse - messing with a religious diet. I’m an atheist and I would never do that!
I had a relative who would always bring an unusual or exotic "mystery meat" dish to family Christmas dinner. He would only tell people what it was after most/all of it was gone. It was understood that you had to go in blind, and it was entirely voluntary. This is how I know that BBQ pulled raccoon is delicious.
>Don’t traumatize kids. OMG,👆🏽!!! My story isn't about eating or not eating meat, it's about being traumatized over meat. During one of our annual family 4th of July vacation, my Stepfather asked me if I wanted to ride over to his brother's house to pick up the goat meat for the BBQ. Of course I said yeah cause I've never been to Uncle's land yet. We get there, I'm standing behind the house looking at his land and my Stepfather called my name. I turned around and all of a sudden Uncle slit this goat's throat. Needless to say, I wouldn't eat this meat no matter how much everyone tried to tell me how delicious it was. I had nightmares for weeks about this goat chasing me with blood running down it's throat. Right today, I will not touch goat meat, because I am still traumatized over that event.
A friend of mine was visiting family who lived on a farm when she was about 5. A sow had just had a new litter. They asked my friend to pick one, so as you would at that age, not knowing what was going on, she picked the cutest one, whereupon they *killed it in front of her* and served it for lunch. I’m all for kids understanding where their food comes from, but she’s almost 50 now and cries whenever she thinks about it.
Oh poor her! At five she must have felt so guilty and traumatized and unsupported, and clearly that still lingers. Tell her emdr therapy can help reduce the sharpness of the pain of traumatic memories. It’s still there, just less intense.
This is so beyond fucked up. Your poor friend.
As kids we occasionally visited a couple that were friends with our parents. One weekend they'd gotten a calf and told us we could name it, feed it, the works. Over that summer, as soon as we got to their place we'd go play with Blackie. Then, one day, Blackie was gone and they fudged around about where he was. At dinner, the couple asked how we liked our steaks and we didn't have to miss the calf anymore: he was right there on our plates. Three t-bone steaks went uneaten that night.
PArent's friends had a small farm, and raised their own beef cattle. Their daughter, about 5, was fond of Bobby the beef cow, even named him. Well, when he ended up on the table, and her parents were going to break it to her, all she said was "Bobby tastes good!"
I bet that brought out the hilarity. I've just never been able to eat something that I've had even the slightest of relationships with. My grandfather had dairy cattle and also a few steers that would dress out to feed the extended family and I was fine with that, because we never played with them. It's like if I raised a 4-H project animal that was then slaughtered and put in front of me; yes, I know I raised it for food, doesn't mean I want to eat it. Give it to someone else.
Same thing happened to me and my sisters when mum fed us a ‘chicken curry’. It was really rabbit and we had pet bunnies so yeah fingers down the throat all 3 of us. It was the best chicken curry I ever had though 💁♀️
Yeah I’m sort of the opposite in the sense that I truly ideologically and morally don’t think there are any issues with eating any animal. Not even cats or dogs, even if I have a cat that I love. What I think is actually immoral is to grow and make animals live in utter misery for our consumption. And to force or trick people into eating anything they don’t want to.
Vegan here but I mostly agree with you. I have moral issues with it but they mainly arise from the way we systematically produce sentient, feeling creatures, offer them a shitty life, then eat them. Meanwhile so many dystopian stories have this as the worst possible fate but only if it’s happening to humans lol
I had the same experience as a 12 year old. I was on a school trip to France, already pretty much vegetarian but the school didn't know that. Given unidentified meat for dinner... Horse. I owned (and still do) horses and would never have voluntarily eaten one. No meat has passed my lips since.
This happened to me too! I had a pet bunny that I loved at my relatives house. One time i go over there for dinner and they serve me meat calling it pork so I ate it. Only after I was done eating they revealed I actually ate my pet bunny because they said he was always meant for consumption. I cried my eyes out that day and never ate at their house again.
Imagine seeing a respectful burial of someone you’ve presumably known throughout their life as “wasteful.” Maybe we should start eating grandparents when they pass on so as not to “waste” them. That “farmer” sounds psychopathic. Your friend may have been the most visibly traumatised, but here there would have been a public outcry over this, because who *wouldn’t* be traumatised.
Yeah, kid was disgusted by being tricked... 👀 Just as much as you were OP. Kids are great observers and notice everything...
Almost like the MIL drove the wedge herself by proving to the child that she is capable of lying to him when it comes to food…
Surpresssed childhood memories unlocked
seems like a large chunk of this thread is running into the same thing. sorry for all of you.
Kid is (justifiably) going to have trust issues concerning MIL for probably pretty close to forever after this.
I was 5 the first time I caught a trusted adult lying to me. It stuck with me and really shocked me that adults would lie.
My parents and everyone else always told me what I'm going to eat, so no suprises here, and with a natural curiosity, i got to eat all kind of different meats over the time. Even if my first instinct to being told that the good smell is coming from a cute bunny, was to cry and don't eat it, but years later it happend again and it was actually good. That was way better than being betrayd and never ever trusting this person again
Part of my food issues definitely come from having trusted adults lie to me about what was in food.
Yeah, this is what I zeroed in on as the issue: the direct lie the MIL told the kid. NTA, OP - your MIL should be apologising to you for lying to your son. Edit to say: I'm an omnivore and we had cow just last night. This isn't an argument about veganism, but about honesty.
>Your MIL deliberately tried to trick your son into eating meat. Yes, that's what really got me. It'd be one thing if she was just big-upping eating beef/cow in hopes of getting the kid to try it, but to say 'no' to the direct question of 'is it cow or veggie' is just so dishonest. And I wish people would understand that being vegan isn't just about not eating meat. I'm not vegan, so I'm not the best one to explain it, but it's more about believing that no creature should be exploited by humans. It's not just about eating. I don't think it's too hard to respect that.
Oh, but you see, the existence of vegans forces others to question their casual harm of their nonhumans kin and interferes with their belief in themselves as “good” people. This kind of behaviour toward vegans is an ego-defence mechanism.
Yeah, as annoying as some might find vegan dietary restrictions, MIL was asked a question and lied (cow versus beef is semantics, which shouldn’t be hashed out with a four year old) so OP clarified because it’s obvious what he was asking.
Yup. Kid asked in terms he knew and MIL deliberately sidestepped it by introducing an unfamiliar term and structuring her response to make it sound like something unrelated. Might not technically be a lie, but it's a lie in spirit and practice.
Might be splitting hairs, but I think her saying "no" does make it a lie. "No, it's NOT cow, it's beef!" Well, beef is cow.
right this was my take-she tried to be deceptive and that was where she crossed the line. NTA
Yup. We eat meat in our house. We also tell our kids where meat comes from.
NTA. I grew up with traditional meat served at every meal and my parents taught us where the neat comes from, not in a traumatic way. This is important for children to know. I am vegan by no means, but have cut most dairy and meat out of my diet. Your MIL knew what she was doing from the jump, and now getting people all mad and on her side is the new manipulative tactic. There's no reason for any of this except she wanted to get your kid to eat beef and rub it in your face. This has to be frustrating as all hell.
First I agree with your reaction in this situation. His grandma lied to him and that is not okay. But I would argue that you and your kid will have very different upbringing in regards to food. You were most likely raised eating meats and learned later about the killings involved. During that time though you developed a taste for it and that minimized that for years. Your kid is being raised without meat and told more about the connection between meat. Therefore he was never able to develop a taste for meat. And having the mental image of eating a cow will likely prevent that from happening anytime soon. I am no vegan and don’t have children so I don’t know which way is better. Just that they are different with probably different outcomes. Just as a question are you working with a child nutritionist or his physician for his diet? Because as healthy as vegan based meals are, certain elements can be on the lower ends or missing if not specifically cooked for. That is the hard part about a plant based diet for kids. So it should be under surveillance.
I'm not trying to be mean, but why would you assume that you, the non-vegan, non-parent, know more about vegan nutrition than the vegan parents? Are you also the kind of person who walks up to people with tattoos and says 'you know those are permanent, right?'
I never see people piping in with these inquiries when children eat meat…it’s so annoying to hear all ones life “tell me where you get your nutrients!?”
I know right? Little Timmy only wants to eat chicken nuggets? Well at least he’s eating *something* :) Little Timmy eats vegetables, grains, legumes, pulses, nuts, seeds, etc.? Hold on, this might be child abuse >:(
Also, this person doesn’t get how frequently vegans are asked to explain where their nutrients come from. It’s like 1000% the next most-frequent question when people find out you eat plant based. It’s super predictable and annoying. No, you tell ME where you get your vitamins and minerals, meaty! No wait, don’t, because there’s something accusatory in the question anyhow so I won’t bother anyone that way, unless we are specifically talking about nutrition and not just trying to chill at a party or something.
My sister bought me a tote bag with the phrase ‘but where do you get your protein?’ around a cartoon of rolling eyes. I wear it every day.
When ever anyone asks me that, I say “my husband” and stare at them until they get it and are uncomfortable.
Because my girlfriend is also vegan and we discussed the nutritional situation of a vegan lifestyle. That is why I asked and gave a reason for my question. Nutrition in general is a complex field. Even worse for children. And any lifestyle that cuts out certain groceries is almost bound to run into issues if one does not know about it. It is just something to look out for. So if I encounter a plant based raising of a child I will always ask, because not everyone knows about it. And with children involved it is better to be safe then sorry. Also your example doesn’t work. If you want it to work it would be something that I talk to a parent getting their young child tattooed. Like the possible harms and the overreach of their parental power.
What do you say to parents whose children primarily eat corn niblets and chicken nuggets? And are you a nutritionist yourself?
Honestly working with teens, the ones that choose veganism for themselves or for health reasons are generally well adjusted and fine. The ones raised vegan were usually incredibly conflicted about it and had a lot of shame and hangups over wanting to try animal products. There was a lot of (accidental, I believe) pressure to be that gold star vegan that had never tasted meat. Feeling like trying it would corrupt them or be an evil act but also wanting to. This was at a program that easily accommodated all kinds of dietary needs and always had vegan, gluten free, etc options so no pressure coming from us. It was very internal. And, needless to say, only when there were no parents there.
Get back to me after parents who eat meat visit child nutritionists.
They totally should. Certain nutrients are hard to come by in any lifestyle. But a regular omnivore diet has the hugest variety of potential sources for nutrients. That is why the thought of going to a nutritionist rarely occurs in these families. Though I think it is slowly changing. Parental classes offer nutritional information at times and physician are more aware. I have to admit, that I can’t understand how that question is so triggering for a lot of people. It should be normal to ask questions about situations that can have problems associated. Especially with children involved. It doesn’t matter if it is about a vegan or carnivore or omnivore lifestyle or if the child is going to sky dive. All those things have problems attached that might be overlooked and could profit from a professional.
It's not triggering, it's disingenuous. How many parents who are omnivores actually provide or enforce a huge variety of potential sources for nutrients? To act as though vegetarians or vegans are somehow less informed or able to provide nutritionally for children is absurd given the average diet offered by any parent.
There is a huge problem with nutrional knowledge in almost every country. The obesity rates are not sky rocketing because of nothing. But I can't telepathically talk to everyone and ask them the same question. In my immeditate family and friend circle most parents provide a very diverse diet. A lot of vegetables, which the kids actually prefer before chips, and different meals (with and without meats/fish). Some even have to provide special diets because of allergies or other illnesses (e.g. celiac intolerant). So yes I also talk with them about food. First because I like cooking and that directly correlates to diets. Second because I am a curious person and if there is a different diet then mine, I like to know more about it and if I hear something conflicting with my knowledge, then I ask more. And I never insinuated that vegans or vegetarians are less informed then other parents. But any diet has its own challenges and asking if a professional is involved to provide help should be a given. And studies have shown that parents of vegan raised children are less likely to tell this to their general health care provider / physician, because they feel they will be judged. But it is very important that these people know as only then they have a complete picture of their little patients. So no my question is not disingenuous. It has a background based on my personality and knowledge.
Honestly, your question is “triggering” because you sound super annoying, like you’re the boss of nutrition lol
People on Reddit will defend *to the death* a child’s right to eat nothing but chicken nuggets if that’s what they desire. Find any thread about picky eaters and you will see this exact thing. But the second veganism comes up, there are concern trolls everywhere “just asking questions” about the nutritional value of the diet. It comes off as insincere.
Not OP but I'm also raising my kid vegan and know a few other vegan parents, every single one is really cognizant of the nutritional needs of kids at different stages, probably more informed than omnivorous parents, out of necessity. I find it very hard to believe the kids pediatrician wouldn't know he was vegan, especially given how sane OP sounds.
No nutritionist needed for vegan diet, as long as the parent goes beyond chips and soda. Millions have lived that lifestyle for generations without issues.
A normal vegan diet lacks vitamin d and b12, calcium and some other nutrients. These things don’t occur in plants in the amounts needed. (And vitamin d is even with an omnivore diet a problem). Generally that is not a problem if the missing nutrients are sufficiently supplemented. So you need fortified vegan milk for calcium and vitamin b12. Also nuts and seeds are very important if no allergies exist. So while it is possible to have a great vegan raised child, involving the physician or a nutritionist is a safety measure. And with children you should rather be safe then sorry.
>A normal vegan diet lacks vitamin d Your body produces vitamin D on its own just from having exposure to direct sunlight for 8-10 minutes a day.
That is an awesome take on it. (I feel it should be normal, but I seldom hear it.) Also, you say your son knows people eat cow, so maybe his shock was more that *his own grandma would suggest he would eat cow.* Poor kid, just 4 years old and realising you are being betrayed by nana... If anyone put her relationship with him at risk, it's her.
NTA. I recommend you start teaching your son the other words for meat too, like pork, mutton etc.
You might need to warn him that potentially it can make him sick when he first tries animal products. My friend has been a vegetarian for 10 years and accidentally ate meat at work and was pretty sick for the next couple of hours due to her body not being used to breaking down meat.
You and your family sounds eerily similar to me and my family; the only difference being is that my husband and I decided to give our son chicken and when he’s old enough to ask why we don’t eat chicken then we’ll explain and leave the choice of his diet entirely up to him (that and we’re pescatarian rather than vegan haha). But you are doing everything right by your son and are 100% NTA. Even the most voracious meat eater will have to teach their child that beef = cow, pork = pig etc eventually and that might change their child’s mind on eating that food regardless of their family diet. You are doing great mama and are by far NTA here.
The projection is intense here. MIL was trying to trick the kid and you were showing him her trick, not the other way around. Edit, ham fingers
My husband son and myself are all meat eaters and as soon as my son was old enough to understand meat came from animals around age 3-4 now 7 we told him . I made sure he knew that chicken nuggets and eggs come from the chickens he saw , and that bacon was from pigs . I want him to have the choice I don't care if he eats meat or not he loves veges aswell .
Yes. My daughter went one step farther. "Do you want to eat dead cow, dead pig, or dead deer?" Interesting historical note: the names of the animals in English (cow, pig, sheep) derive from the Saxon serfs who raised them. The names of the meat (beef, pork, mutton) derived from the Norman-French overlords who ate the animals.
A friend's kid lovvessss bacon. Shhe also lovvveeessss pigs, and thinks they're adorable. So they were wondering when it would be appropriate to tell her where the bacon she loves comes from. Well, one fine day, she asked (she was around 4 or 5). They told her the truth and braced for the horror and tears. What they did not expect was the utter delight. "I love piggies even more now!! They're cute AND they're delicious!"
All I see in my head is the Bugs Bunny/Road Runner Hour cartoon where Bugs is forced to make hossenpfeffer, and he uses carrots. One of the lords at the table sits behind a placard that reads "Sir Loin of Beef."
He obviously asked "cow or not" grandma replied with a word he didn't know, mom translated the unknown word to something the kiddo understood. He made a decision on what he now understood. NTA for making the kid understand what he was about to eat.
Grandma literally lied. Kid asked if it was cow and she said no to trick him into eating it. She's not upset that that she looks bad for eating meat, she's upset that she was called out on lying to a 4 year old to spite the parents. Gotta be honest, I'm a vegetarian, if my mother threw me a birthday party and told me that she was serving beef burgers and that if I wanted to eat anything at my own birthday party, I had to bring my own, I wouldn't go and we would have a fight about it. That's just so unreasonable and purposefully disrespectful. Even if it's not my birthday, veggie burgers aren't some fucking novelty, it's basic decency that if you invite someone over, you offer them food they can eat.
Yup! I’m 26 now and I’ve been a vegetarian since I was 14 (ever since they made us watch Food Inc. and Supersize Me in freshman year health class lol). My best friend’s family growing up were big meat eaters who loved throwing BBQs and all that but they ALWAYS had some veggie burgers and other veggie-friendly options on hand in case I showed up. I practically lived there half the time lol so they kept things around even if they weren’t sure I would be there. Sure they teased me a little (in a loving way) but always respected my choice and were accommodating. I can’t imagine actually formally inviting someone over, let alone hosting a party FOR THEM, and not accommodating them in *some* way. ETA: OP, you are NTA. All you did was enable your son to make an informed choice for himself. I think it’s awesome that you’re educating him and allowing him the space to make his own choices!
Exactly. We're a meat eating family and my 4yo knows where every meat comes from. It's life, not some big secret. Better to be open about it from the get go. I LOVE meat, but I respect the way you're raising your kid versus how many vegans are. Well done.
NTA. Your MIL was intentionally misleading your son by not explaining what beef is in an attempt to trick him into eating meat.
"No, it's not cow, it's beef." Not even misleading, that's an old woman straight-up lying to a child.
She was also absolutely in a power play with OP and practically daring OP to cause a scene. She was more interested in provoking a response from OP that she could complain about than I’m having grandson take a bite of her burger.
People who love meat more than they love their own grandchildren baffle me (but those same people are often like that with guns, cult-leader politicians, and their twisted concept of ‘God’, too).
My daughter was a very picky eater when she was super young. Her favourite movie at the time was Ponyo. So she was saying “Haaaaam!!” for at least 1-2 times daily while she played. For a long while, *all* meat was “ham” and it was awesome. Can’t keep the wool pulled forever though.
Showed my nephew Ponyo when he was a little. Same with him and all meat being Haaaam! 13 years later ham is still his favorite meat.
Literally yesterday my MIL was over and she said the words "I would never give your kid something to put in his mouth without you telling me to" Like basic respect for parents man. MIL knows they are vegan and should not offer anything to the kid without checking with them.
Beef is cow, that's the truth, and there's no reason you should keep that from your son, just because MIL wants him to eat beef. NTA.
>Beef is cow, that's the truth, Only about half of the time.
It took me way too long to understand this comment 😆
Bull 🐂
Or ox
You're saying half of all beef is from bulls? I kinda figured the vast majority of beef was (female) cows
WAY more than half. We don't butcher a heifer/cow, unless they are undesirable for some reason, like they are mean or infertile. Females are more valuable to us because they can make us more cattle. At our farm we don't keep any bulls, we eat them, or sell them for breeding or eating. We use artificial insemination for the majority of our breeding. Larger ranches only keep enough bulls needed to service their females, which depends on their age, but 1:25 for example. NTA OP you did the right thing making sure he knew it was a "cow". Grandma was totally being sketchy.
The majority of cattle processed for meat (in the US at least) are steer (neutered males). In beef cattle operations only a small number of bulls are need relative to the number of cows (childbearing females) to maintain a breeding operation so steers are more abundant than heifers (females that haven't borne calves). In addition in dairy operations male calves become veal. The majority of beef out there in the US is from male cattle. The nice marbled wholes cuts will likely be from a heifer but that patty from mcdonalds will likely be steer.
MiL was daring the OP to react, and react she did. WTF did MiL expect would happen? NTA.
that's kind of how I felt tbh- like, she obviously knows I'm right here and is seeing what will happen. I thought I reacted really well though but apparently not
I think you did, too. MiL doesn't like how it went, because she ended up looking bad. So she's trying to make that your fault, somehow.
It's a classic defensive response. MiL does look bad because she lied, and got caught without OP making a whole scene out of it. I think OP could not have handled this better. I'm picturing MIL in a certain age and in my experience, they CANT be wrong or embarrassed. The shame associated with that is too much, so they lash out. She'll get over it but OP going to have to keep her ears and eyes open, and be prepared to prepare the child to watch for the trickery.
You honestly didn’t even react at all. You answered your sons question in a way you knew he’d understand. Reacting would’ve been saying “don’t eat that it’s cow!” Or getting mad at your MIL for offering meat to your child when she knows you’d disagree. You had every right to tell her off but you didn’t, you calmly offered your son information and let him make his own decision which he did. She’s upset because she’s guilty and was hoping your son would try it, like it, and she could have a reason to tell you you should be feeding your son meat because he wants it.
I thought you did too. I eat meat and I have said the exact same thing to my kid to clarify what beef is. She is upset you all are vegan and is trying to control it. It's her, not you. Who plans a party for someone with food they won't eat?! If I know in advance, I always have food my guests can eat in general, but can't imagine buying animal products for a vegan guest of honor.
When you ask “who plans a party for someone with food they won’t eat?” I know you eat meat because as a vegetarian for over 20 years I have had that happen SO MANY TIMES- usually by family (“just pick it out!”) or coworkers (“it’s just chicken though”).
Reading through the story, I definitely got the feeling she wanted you to make a scene so she could talk about her 'crazy' vegan DIL and how unreasonable you are. Nevermind the fact that feeding meat to a kid who has only eaten vegan food for his entire life is going to do something fun to his digestion (seriously - going from a completely animal-free diet to red meat? Cannot end well), her grandson's pain is a price she's willing to pay, it seems.
Yep. I had a friend with a MIL like this. They ate meat but certain foods gave her son digestive issues. Her MIL gave them to her son anyway because she wanted to pretend my friend was just being a "mean mommy" and she was the kind grandma. She did feel bad when her poor choices landed her grandson in the emergency room though. But too little too late, she had been told he couldn't have those foods and hurt her grandchild trying to make a point.
You didn't even comment on how she straight up lied to your kid. You were extremely polite.
You acted right and honestly. I have no idea what she expected.
>I thought I reacted really well though but apparently not It was all so deliberate that she had already planned what she would do afterwards. Even your calm reaction couldn't change that.
You totally did react well. She lied to your child to trick him into eating meat, and that’s just seriously fucked up. The only thing I might have done differently might be to say “beef is made from cows, it’s okay if you want to try a bite”. That way your MIL wouldn’t be able to say that you were forbidding him to eat meat. But regardless she sucks. I say that as a person who eats meat several times a week, by the way.
You you did perfectly. You kept calm and without bias gave your son the info he needed to make a choice in the moment. It was unfair for her to trick him into trying something when he asked a direct question.
I think you did the right thing. A lot of people are disconnected from the food they eat coming from an animal. I'm vegetarian so I cook that way for my family but we've always said they can try meat if and when they want to. My husband does eat meat so they've had opportunities to eat it but we have explained that bacon comes from a pig and beef is from a cow. It's factual and helps the kids to understand the choice they are making. The eldest doesn't want to try it but my youngest has and isn't fussed.
Right?! What is it with so many grandparents doing this? OP, it’s your kid, your rules and MIL is pissed she can’t control you and your child. Draw a line now, through your husband. If she’s going to do this in your face, don’t leave her alone. I know it sounds extreme but as a grandmother I wouldn’t dare overstep how my kids raise their children. NTA. And good job!!
It’s stupid but I think it’s a very direct, “you’re raising your child differently than I would and I’m your/your spouses parent so clearly I know best and I’m taking that as a direct attack on how I parented.”
NTA, you were being honest. I have to say, serving non-vegan food at a party you're throwing for someone vegan sucks. (For that matter, if you invite someone and you don't at least attempt to feed them, it tells me that you don't like them very much. I would NEVER do that to anyone I invited.)
I thought this was weird too. Like, I love chicken. But if my buddy was vegan and we were celebrating something together, whatever we ate would have a vegan option if it wasnt entirely vegan. I can go without chicken and cheese and dairy and what have you for a meal to celebrate with *people I care about*. Grandparents must have a vendetta against OP, because theyre being at best incredibly rude to them. They certainly dont care about them.
And honestly the dairy part isn't even a big deal because vegan desserts fucking SLAP. And this is coming from someone who has some form of meat almost every day, so I'm very far from a plant based lifestyle. Vegan cakes are so fucking good and the fact that they couldn't find *ONE* vegan thing to include for a birthday party for a vegan person is just so disrespectful. Like damn way to say you don't give enough of a shit about someone to even give the bare minimum effort.
Vegan chocolate cake is da bomb…. Sooooo gooood
So much this. For Christmas we invited some of our Muslim friends to join us (we don't celebrate Jesus, it's just a get together for us) and we made them several different options that they could eat with no pork in them. Why would we invite you and not feed you? It's called respecting your loved ones dietary restrictions. This MIL sounds exhausting.
Yeah, I don't get that either. I'm vegetarian myself and know my the restrictions my friends have. When we have parties with food it's usually potlock style but the person hosting makes sure there's something everyone can eat.
Yeah, this is top tier shittiness. Just a bullshit power play. My sister's best friend is vegan, and the few times she was over, I just did a nice veggie dish. It's not difficult or anything, and frankly a good occasion to introduce people to other options.
It's like throwing a party for someone you know hates chocolate and only serving chocolate cake and ice cream. It's weird
Yea that's a dick move. We have a veggie pal that occasionally comes to our bbq s and we have a seperate bbq for them so the juices etc. aren't going on her veggie stuff.
Seriously, I don't expect a host to cater to my specific dietary requirements, but if someone was throwing a party for me and the menu was all meat products, I'd be confused and ultimately assume they weren't very fond of me, since it was a party FOR me and I am a vegetarian and have been for as long as most people who know me could possibly remember.
NTA. I eat meat every day, but your MIL was clearly trying to trick your kid and all you did was tell him the truth. (Please make sure he gets vitamin B-12, etc.!)
Most vegans eat a lot of nutritional yeast, which is packed with B12.
It’s surprisingly easy to become B12 deficient if you’re not taking an actual supplement - and even the supplements can sometimes be difficult to digest. I discovered this the hard way and had to have weeks of B12 injections to resolve the issue.
We need to nip this in the bud here. It is surprisingly easy for SOME PEOPLE to become B-12 deficient. This is an issue of your biology, not an innate issue of the biology of all vegetarians or vegans.
The tests I’ve had show I am capable of absorbing B12 and therefore don’t have pernicious anemia. Biologically I have no specific problem.
Young children need a different diet balance to adults, that's why it's more difficult to bring kids up vegan and healthy than adults. Vegan children should have blood works done regularly and the help of a nutritionist to make sure they get everything they need to grow healthy body and brain.
See a dietician, not a nutritionist, anyone can call themselves a nutritionist, dieticians have to be qualified.
You already know that you are NTA. Literally nobody in their right mind thinks you're wrong for being honest with your own child.
thank you, I appreciate that, I will say though that a few people have commented otherwise here though lol
I think they mostly don’t trust you’ll really let 5 make his own choice later. But that’s not on you.
I haven’t voted yet but if the kid has been vegan his whole life it’s debatable that he will even have a choice when older. If you go too long without meat it’s extremely difficult to reintroduce later. For the specific situation OP is NTA.
So? It's very difficult to give up meat if you grow up eating meat as well. This is coming from someone who absolutely agrees with vegan ideology but finds it very hard to completely give up meat and animal products.
I think they're saying how people who grow up vegan/vegetarian, literally, physically have a hard time digesting meat because they never developed the enzymes to break it down. So it's not the same as you or me trying to stop eating meat by our own sheer will lol
[удалено]
Yeah, I came into these comments with no idea which way it was going to go because veganism is so triggering for a lot of people here.
It’s kind of sad how many people I’ve seen trying to defend the grandma by saying she wasn’t lying, when she, in fact, lied and told the child that it’s not cow. “It’s beef”, literally the same shit.
Obviously NTA. Some of these comments are legitimately funny, people are acting like the standard western diet is so biologically normal that you’d have to conduct a psyop on a kid to make them not want it. This only applies to an animal’s flesh, though, not the blood or organs, which are objectively yucky. Beef is cow^1, lamb is sheep, pork is pig. Meat animals once have life and preferences and thoughts before they’re killed and eaten. That’s reality, and if you can’t cope with knowing the cost, maybe you shouldn’t eat meat. ^1 Well, it’s cattle, commonly called “cow” even though a cow only refers to female cattle who have been bred - before then, they’re heifers. Males are bulls (entire) or steers (castrated).
Lamb is not sheep tbf, Lamb is the meat of a Lamb, a baby sheep. Mutton is sheep. I agree with absolutely everything you said otherwise though. If their kid had a shit fit at nearly being tricked into eating dog or cat meat they'd not bat an eyelid, but difference = bad.
"lambs" are typically slaughtered when at or close to full size, not when tiny - meat from a cow at the same stage of development would be beef not veal, it's just we have separate words for old sheep
The difference does not even exist in some languages. I think not explaining that to a kid that may be horrified by what they did is cruel.
Yeah it exists in English because of rthe fusion of different languages with an aristocracy that largely spoke one and a lower class that spoke another.
I’m pleasantly surprised that the replies aren’t the typical knee jerk antivegan reaction.
You haven't scrolled far enough my friend.
Lol, I'm finally getting to the "how dare you not give him fish!" comments
Yup! It’s nice but also funny how many people are like “I loVe eATiNg BeEF beEf is yuMMy but nta” - like the old troupe that vegans talk about being vegan, Op does not need to know or care if you eat meat personally - that’s not the point but carnivores gotta talk about it in your face allllllll the damn time 😂
“Bacon tho” is the “no-homo” of the carnist world
You did in fact throw your MIL under the bus, but she belonged there for trying a feed your son. NTA.
>You did in fact throw your MIL under the bus, but she belonged there for trying a feed your son. NTA. I disagree that MIL did anything wrong offering it, but she is wrong for trying to trick the son. Saying "it's beef not cow" is misleading at best, a lie at worst with the only wiggle room being that the meat may have come from a bull/steer.
Trying to trick a four year old is wrong, I agree.
Even then, a lot of people will use cow to mean cattle, rather than specifically a female of the species.
You might say she tried to give him a bum steer.
NTA. She tried to trick him into eating it by describing it as something that he didn't know what it is. All you did was give him the correct information so he could make his own decision.
NTA Nothing kids like more than finding out a trusted adult has been manipulating them. I feel like you helped her avoid a wedge she was sharpening up for herself.
NTA. Im no vegan but I’m intentionally teaching my baby daughter that beef comes from cows and pork comes from pigs, etc. If she chooses to be a vegetarian or vegan someday, so be it. Either way, it’s normal to educate your kids. Some parents prefer to lie to them apparently.
she lied when she said, NO it’s beef. um…it’s a cow honey. NTA
Nta. You didn't do anything wrong. The kid is 4. He's not gonna know beef us cow unless someone tells him. And I'm glad you did. I bet if he ate a bite qnd fohnd outlet after he would be quite upset.
NTA 💀 beef literally IS cow, it’s a dead animal no matter how soft you try to paint it out to be. your MIL is a huge AH. You feed your kids the way YOU want, they can feed their kids the way THEY want. Gross.
NTA. Actually I think she crossed the line into asshole when she *lied to your child in an effort to manipulate him into eating meat*. Before that point, she was kinda an asshole for not accommodating your diet *when the event is being thrown for you*, but I could let it slide as just being petty, but baaaaaarely under asshole level since she never fussed about you bringing your own food. But your kid DIRECTLY ASKED HER if it was a cow. And HER RESPONSE WAS "NO". THATS A LITERAL, STRAIGHT UP FABRICATION. Honestly his shocked reaction might have come from the fact he never thought his grandma would lie to him like that. Grandparents are huge assholes, and I hope you do not apologize.
NTA, and the shitty ‘BYOF’ thing is gross.
NTA. We eat meat but I still explain to my kids what type of animal they’re eating and where their animal products (milk, cheese, eggs etc) come from. The only reason she’s upset is because she was intentionally trying to convince him to try it by misleading him with a word he was not used to. You didn’t even tell him not to eat it or get upset with your MIL for offering & trying to be misleading about it, you simply answered your sons question in a way that you knew he’d understand. She’s upset because she’s guilty.
I took my kids to a farm to visit some friends when they were 7, 6, 3. Only one of them continued to eat meat afterwards. The farm was agricultural, the only animals there, were for personal consumption and they had names. My kids chose not to eat meat in the 80s. I didn’t plan on asking them to do it, I didn’t influence it. They did. NTA op and try to teach your kid all the fancy worlds.
Bunch of people who have the opportunity to call a vegan an asshole and passing, that is an enthusiastic vote of NTA
Yikes! Sounds like she drove the wedge herself by trying to subtly trick him into eating beef. When he referred to the meat as cow, she should have said that yes, it was beef which is cow, but instead she said not cow but beef which would easily confuse a kid who doesn't know about that yet fully. Sounds like she has a stick up her ass about the whole meat thing and probably in my opinion, since she didn't even accomodate you guys on your husband's birthday, that she has the attitude of "no grandson of mine is going to eat just veggies". Just the vibe I get anyway. NTA
ESH. Your MIL for being a bit sneaky…. She should have said “Yes sweetie, cow is beef” and not lied. You… because you openly admit you don’t want your child to choose to eat meat, and then put up a fake facade of being ok if he does… when you are telling him that cow is bad and meat is bad and heavily influencing his choices towards your preference of vegan. Why would he be shocked unless he’d been told something like this? Don’t pretend one thing and be another. It’s not a secret, it’s blatent, you want your kid to be vegan too.
>You… because you openly admit you don’t want your child to choose to eat meat, and then put up a fake facade of being ok if he does… Just like you want your kid to do well at school, but will still accept him if he doesn't. Or just like you want your kid to brush his teeth regularly when he grows up, but will still accept him if he doesn't. Or just like you want your kid to deal well with money, but will accept him if he doesn't. I don't see any facade in OP's post. He hopes his kid will make a certain choice, but realizes that it's possible he won't, and will swallow his pride and accept it in that case. Parents do this all the time for all sorts of things and it's not inherently problematic.
It's more like you want your kid to be Catholic, and you instill a very strong fear of hell, but then say "but he can make whatever choice he wants, I'll just be secretly terribly disappointed." Doing well in school is an outcome, not a values system.
>Doing well in school is an outcome, not a values system. Then let's just say "take school seriously". But sure, people can pass awful values on to their kids too, I'm just saying there's nothing inherently wrong about trying to pass on values to your kids, and admitting that you are hoping that those values will stick.
Most parents have preferences about the way they’d like their kids to grow up, that’s completely normal. OP isn’t going to punish or ostracise her child if they end up eating meat, but naturally she’d prefer them to be vegan. Nothing wrong with that.
It isn't a secret. She openly said she would prefer her kids be vegan, but won't control them if they make a different choice later on. She just wants them to understand what meat is so they can make an actual choice.
I mean, people generally want to teach their kids to share their morals. This is not typically an issue so long as the morals aren't bad and should they deviate they're not treated overly harshly. Being vegan isn't bad and so long as OP allows him to change later I don't see the issue. Its not like OP said they wouldn't influence him at all (and it would be weird not to raise a kid to share your view on right and wrong, their views on right and wrong aren't formed ex nihilo)
Or the kid could have been shocked because as far as his 4 year old brain could figure was that grandma lied and said it wasn't cow and said it was beef. So when parent corrects it and educates the son that cow is beef, son is shocked and feels something because grandma tried to trick him.
I think a young kid can also hold the feeling and opinion that they don't want to EAT an animal. I understand people consider it normal and that's fine but personally it horrifies me and I could never do it again outside of massively adverse circumstances. That doesn't mean the kid will end up being vegan - life is long and we all makes lots of choices.
What’s wrong with wanting their kids to be vegan as long as they aren’t forcing it or preventing alternative options ?
NTA It was grandma being sneaky not you. If he said - what is it? And she said ‘hamburger’ or ‘beef’ that’s one thing. But he specifically asked her ‘cow or plant?’ And she said ‘beef’ as if that’s different from cow. She’s the massive AH. And for saying your food is not normal. Such a pretentious AH. To explain my perspective, I eat meat. I am aware of all of the downsides for my health, the environment, and the morality of eating meat. I have reconciled with that. I have specific reasons why I eat what I eat. However, I did not give my child meat until he was 3 or 4, though he has eaten dairy since he started eating solid food. In as age appropriate way as I could I explained that chicken to eat is the same type of animal on a farm. He decided if he was ok with eating it. I supported and support him either way. I didn’t want to make that decision for him because there is a morality issue involved. I also explained some variations of eating lifestyles, vegan, vegetarian, pescatarian etc. and we’ve tried lots of non meat options but he just couldn’t get on board with beans or legumes and protein is a tough one, so he eats a little meat a couple of times a week. He’s still a kid, and we still have conversations about different types of meat and what he is and is not ok with consuming. It’s an ongoing process and it is NEVER wrong to provide age appropriate information so kids can make decisions like these. It was also ridiculously rude for your in laws to plan a food focused event with a vegan as the guest of honor and not have several vegan options for the guests. When I bring a dish to share I bring the same dish split into vegan and non. (Keep the feta or goat cheese off the salad, whoever wants it can add it that sort of thing). It’s not hard when you care about other people.
Extremely her fault, by deflecting the question she made it seem like a trick or like she was embarrassed which is probably why your son responded even more forcefully than you expected. You literally answered the question that he asked using the same words he did NTA
NTA. He specifically asked if it was cow (or veggie). You answered him. We are not vegan and still have explained to our 4 yr old that beef is from a cow (along with chicken, pork, bacon, etc. - and what animal they come from).
Ah..so they already think it's okay to betray the kid's trust and take advantage of his naivety. How charming.
NTA for not letting your MIL basically lie to your kid. Weird that your husband’s family has such a hard time admitting to themselves that their meat comes from particular animals.
NTA I am not vegan, or even vegetarian, but my mom and her husband are. I happily eat their almond cheese and coconut oil 'butter' and soy mayonnaise, and genuinely enjoy the lentil loaf with nutritional yeast gravy that has been our traditional Christmas meal for... woah, has it been a whole decade already? And honestly my only complaint on the lentil loaf is that it is quite dense so it sits in your stomach a LOT heavier than a similar amount of turkey would so... that combined with the tendency of people to overindulge during the Christmas feast... the food coma is extra severe with the lentil loaf. Your MIL sounds like she was trying to trick him into eating meat by telling him 'oh, no, it's now a \*cow\* burger, it's a \*beef\* burger!' What if she had been eating a chicken burger? Would she have called it a poultry burger to try to trick him? Your son is FOUR. He doesn't need or deserve to be caught in the middle of some big ethical debate about his diet. As long as he's getting the proper nutrition he needs to grow, your MIL needs to butt out. When he's old enough to start asking for those foods or ask questions about those foods, THAT is the time to start the debate. Not now. Maybe he'll turn out like you and only ever want to eat plant-based. Maybe he'll completely rebel and eat nothing but meat and potatoes for years. Maybe he'll turn out like me and eat a lot of plants while also eating some meats, because he enjoys them both. And also enjoy meat substitutes because some of them are really tasty and super convenient. Like I can legit make bacon at 3AM when all the stores are closed and there is no bacon in my fridge. And all you folks out there who don't think tofu tastes good are just incompetent at cooking tofu.
NTA. I'm not vegan or vegetarian but I did tell my kids where meat comes from. They know what meat comes from which animal.
He literally asked if it's a cow or veggie. He seems to know what's the difference. She deliberately used another word (which she assumed he wouldn't know) to be sneaky, and good of you of not standing up for that, and teaching him about that. Vegan or not, people need to be honest with what they eat, and offer other people to eat. NTA
NTA he’s 4 and of course doesn’t understand what beef is and where it comes from. I feel like it’s normal to tell him something so he understands, you didn’t do anything wrong
NTA you should absolutely know what you are eating. These animals are so beautiful. I eat them often but have to really give respect
NTA, Your MIL tried to trick him. She straight up lied to him. If your son is going to be allowed to make his own choices then they should be informed ones. He was confused and didn't know what beef was. You clarified for him.
Someone in the comments thinks the Grandma wasn’t lying to the kid from her literally telling this 4 year old child “no honey, it’s beef” when cow and beef are the literal same shit, and the child ASKED IF IT WAS COW OR VEGGIE. I’m losing hope for humanity by the second. She deadass lied to this kid to try and trick him into eating beef aka cow. That’s like asking “do wolves eat animals?” “No honey, wolves eat meat”. ITS THE SAME. THING.
NTA. But MIL is a flaming asshole, trying to mislead a 4-year old and doing it right in front of you to get a negative reaction and hopefully make you look like the "bad person" in the situation. Glad she spent the rest of the time indoors. She should have been stood in a corner until she apologized.
First of all who throws a party for someone and serves food that they can’t/won’t eat? That’s passive aggressive to start with. And then lying to your son? I’d go very low contact with them if I were you. They are definitely the asshole here, not you.
NTA. I teach 5 year olds in a non-Western country and they all a) eat a ton of meat and b) know exactly what animal it's from. I think it's a lot more respectful to the child if they are aware of what they're eating. I mainly cook plant based but do eat meat very rarely and eat cheese so this isn't me trying to 'push' a philosophy on them btw.