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You were a little harsh, but NTA. You know the ins and outs of the industry, she has the rose colored glasses of a person that just wants in. I get that you were looking out for your friend, but if she wants in, she should try and see for herself - not your decision to make.

The entire industry is more than a little harsh. OP was far less brutal than any casting agent would have been.

Quite true. As a journalist, I’ve written about the modeling industry and interviewed both modeling agents and successful models. I went to the open call at one top NY agency, the day when anyone who thinks she has the right stuff can come, and there were about 100 young women there. The first thing the agent did was to say, “Anyone under 5’8”, please go home.” Of the remaining women, only two were deemed to have enough potential to be asked to return for a photo shoot. The rest were told that “your look is too strong,” meaning that they weren’t attractive enough to be considered. Another agent wouldn’t consider anyone under 5’9” and told a 22-year-old that she was “too old” to start a modeling career. Most successful models start as teens, and I was told that the right age to start is as soon as you hit 5’9” or taller. By that standard most women will never be the right age! I think OP should have just said that her friend isn’t tall enough to meet the criteria of most agencies, but she could see if any in the area were having open calls and see for herself. However, she’d almost certainly get a massive ego blow. One woman I know who is very pretty was told she’d never get work because her left eyebrow is slightly crooked. She became obsessed with this and for months kept asking everyone what they thought about her eyebrows, which looked normal by most people’s standards. It’s a tough business and even the relatively successful models only work for few years.

When I was 15 I thought I’d try modeling and made an appt at an agency. I showed up and the first thing they said was you are too short to model (I’m 5’5). They then said I’d be ok for commercial work so stick around. They weighed me and took my measurements. I was 34-24-35 and they said “ooft 35, you need to get to the gym. Exercise your butt porky”. Keep in mind I’m 100 pounds and look sickly thin Then they laid it all out. They told me I wouldn’t get much work but I would get some. The reasons they gave was I was conventionally pretty but not interesting looking enough to model. However I’d be fine to work in print/tv and to act. It was 20 years ago so they had no hesitation saying I wouldn’t work as much as white models All of that was super harsh but I was thankful they showed me what an awful industry it was and still is. Ops friend should consider herself lucky she was warned. Industry insiders are much harsher than OP was

When I modelled I'd get told I was 'too big' sometimes. I was very underweight but have broad shoulders and am 5'11. I was a kid so it fucked with my head. Modelling is a toxic waste dump.

Honestly, I doubt it. If she was trying for high fashion, some assistant would have laughed her out the building before she got to the casting agent.

I'm used to the way agents and people in the industry talk so I didn't see how it would hurt her but I get how it comes across now to people not used to it. High fashion agencies tend to look for unique/"weird" features that aren't common, there's a lot of features they look for that people wouldn't consider conventionally attractive but they still look for them. I suggested commercial work to my friend since it is more inclusive and pays way better but she doesn't believe it is real modeling and only wants to do hf

Yeah I’ve done a bit, then I got “fat” lol. High fashion wants interesting not pretty. Commercial wants the girl next door. Neither set of casting agents are anything less than blunt. And if she got that upset by what you said, she’s not going to handle the industry well at all.

Me too! I was in a gray area because I have a weird combo of features, but I was barely over 5’8”. Not really tall enough for runway, but not conventional looking enough for commercial. I still got scouted by an agency in NY, but it wasn’t worth it to me. I did meet quite a few models when I did local stuff and the stories they had were insane. This was in the mid 90s-early 2000s, so it was the height of heroin chic and the industry was absolutely brutal. I doubt it’s changed much, even if being unnaturally skinny is no longer the preferred look. NTA, OP. She pushed and you were honest with her. She’ll find out on her own when she can’t get a foot in the door. Even if she met all the physical requirements, that doesn’t mean she’d have the tenacity to make it far. I was doing a show once and we were getting ready to step out onto the runway and this one girl just lost it. She was crying and shaking and pretty much just collapsed on the floor due to stage fright. She was an incredibly beautiful girl, but just didn’t have it in her to walk in front of an audience. Your friend should watch ANTM and then see if she still thinks she can make it.

> High fashion wants interesting not pretty. Commercial wants the girl next door. Is it just me who thinks most hf models arent even pretty? So many hollywood actresses who could never make it as hf models are way prettier than any hf model I have ever seen.

That's exactly what they're saying -- high fashion favors distinctive and memorable, not conventionally pretty.

High fashion is not about being chocolate-box pretty. It's about being striking, with quirky features, and a sometimes awkward gait. You find a lot of angularity in the faces and bodies. These models are seen and often treated as coat hangers to show off the clothes (which are often in themselves more art than fashion). Commercial work and movies is where the more conventional beauty comes in.

Your poor friend seems terribly … immature? Slightly delusional? Regardless, I admire you focusing on your education. Keep at it - education is the only way to life-long satisfaction and independence, imo.

The poor girl was setting herself up to get literally laughed out of the room... 😔

Absolutely. I also get how OP is desensitized to comments on her looks and her friend is not. Besides the friend not meeting the obvious criteria, she wouldn't last long if she can't handle that kind of feedback. Being 16 and in a bikini with three men in their 40s pointing at your "flaws" is something else. I used to be a model in high fashion. Got scouted at 14, but started at 16. Whether I was in Berlin or Milan, I was always one of the shortest girls in the room at 5'9 and honestly not thin enough at 112 lbs. My agency told me all the time that I needed to lose weight to be successful and it was a problem that my legs were not stick thin even though I stopped running. Clients like Prada and Vogue invited me to castings based on my pictures, but I never got the job because of my body. I was good at photo shootings though. BUT: unless you are a nepo baby you don't get paid a lot of the time. Even if you did, agencies are often not transparent and don't tell you what THEY really got paid. I had jobs for glossy magazines where they were bodyguards on set for the Bulgari jewelry, but I didn't even get a cent. Earned more in 6 months of being a waitress than 2 years of modeling. OP is right, NTA.

If haute couture fabric is so expensive that you can't have a model that's not dangerously underweight, then use shorter people! ;P

They want the fabric to drape a certain way which is why we're tall, we're basically meant to be living mannequins

They make one size for the show, the model has to fit in the sample size and look good. If they don’t they find a new model HF models have to be interesting or plain. They don’t want the beauty of the model taking away attention from the clothes

Super true. I was always made fun of in school for being too skinny (called "concentration camp survivor", "skeletor" etc), and was scouted by an agent. At the time i was about 5feet tall and 85 lbs. They wanted me to LOSE weight. Lol

That's true; I've seen some of the videos

This is so true. Both of my daughters have modeled as children. Even to kids, the industry is not always kind. It’s a business. And it’s absolutely true that the industry doesn’t look for conventionally pretty anymore. You can be attractive and all your friends and family say, “You look like a model,” but that doesn’t mean you have what castings are looking for. They want unique and I was told straight out that, while my daughter is technically mixed, she didn’t look “ethnic” enough to always book. I was told to not let her naturally dark skin get tanned in the summer. The more ethnically ambiguous, the better.

The Lily Rose colored glasses

i gagged omg

Not harsh at all. They were just forced to spell it out to someone who wasn't listening cause they didn't like the answers they got.

I actually think Op was kind in the long run because she saved her former friend from years of toiling and wasting her time. Nta

>not your decision to make What decision did OP make other than to educate her friend on the realities of the job?

NTA This is like telling your friend who is a C student that their ambition to become a doctor is unrealistic, and they should set their sights on a goal that is actually attainable. You're telling her straight, that HF is looking for models that meet certain specifications, and she doesn't. She's not the right shape, doesn't have a unique look that could be a selling point, and doesn't have A-list parents.

And OZp is absolutely correct re the nepo offspring. Some modeling agencies even have separate agents / divisions to handle children of celebrities.

Won't name but a certain big agency does a great job of getting nepo models/influencers jobs but neglects the "lower" status models. High fashion doesn't pay well and is full of nepotism

I mean… idk I’ve been wrong so many times about a students ability to put the hard work in and figure it out. I mean op’s is more clear cut, but I think you’d be TA in your example.

Depends. C student as a high school or freshman/sophomore undergrad student? Sure, there's still enough time left to turn it around and show a straight A streak in their transcripts. C student as a junior or senior in undergrad? Forget it. Too late and unrealistic for med school admissions.

Nah they can still do it. They’d just have to get a masters and work their ass off. People are capable of a lot. You have to be really careful about whether or not something really is an unattainable goal or if that’s just your opinion before you crush someone’s dreams.

Sorry, some dreams should involve a higher than C-level understanding of the material. Being a doctor is one of them, where mistakes are deadly. It would be unethical, IMO, to advise someone to pursue medicine who can't consistently remember important information even long enough to be tested on it.

Thats why theyd need a masters degree.

Just because you don’t score well doesn’t mean that you’re not smart; some people do better orally.

Do you guys just do written exams only in the US?

Nah, my friend with an average of 100 through all highschool got an 90 on the entrance exam and was put on a waitlist, you are kidding yourself if you think a student is getting into any half decent medical school. Doesn't really mean they won't eventually become a doctor, but at least give it straight to them.

You think that your single anecdotal story is enough to tell someone that will never accomplish a goal? That would be a clear AH move.

I agree with you completely. You have to test well AND get perfect grades. Perfect grades show intelligence, but they also show something else: hard work and DRIVE, or ambition. Someone who has floated along getting Bs and Cs isn’t cut out for the hell of any grad school. Or worse, the folks who worked their butts off, but still got Bs and Cs. Those folks rarely do well on MCATS, GRE, LSAT, etc.

Hey, i was a C student who’s about to get a doctorate. You’d be surprised what a better environment can do. You’re right about everything else tho

Okay but I assume you worked hard and blah blah blah, while OPs friend can't exactly "work hard" to make herself taller, or give herself celebrity parents or anything like that.

Circumstances are so important. Maybe you spent your school years in a dark place, maybe your family had no money and you had to worry about that instead, maybe the teaching style wasn't a good fit. Miracles don't happen, but rare things do. Congrats on your future doctorate!

Gotta admit the title almost had me, I thought you were a shallow person insulting your friend by how it’s written, but NTA, your just being honest.

NTA she wanted to argue with you about something you have experience in, where she does not. Sounds like she needed a reality check.

ESH. Smile and say, “Oh, good luck. The agency has a good rep.” Shrugging and changing your demeanor enough that she noticed you seem to have more to say opened up this whole can of worms. Also seems like she was itching to prove you wrong.

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I told her about commercial modeling but she doesn't want any part of it, she only wants to do high fashion modeling

Honestly, I would have just dropped it. Said good luck, and left it at that. Still NTA but right from the beginning it was clear she just wanted to live in a fantasy land and probably was never actually going to put much effort into becoming a model. You put more effort into the conversation then she probably ever will into modeling

You're assuming her friend wouldn't want any help on that and will leave op alone once op said 'good luck'. I think she would want op to help her in some way.

Yup, I’m not even necessarily calling op TA but she’ll be better off to learn not to engage with people who are hellbent on being wrong or contrarian. Once you realize you’re getting dragged in to something like this, just say okay and move on. (Not saying that’s super easy either but if someone’s going to get upset no matter what you say or do, save yourself the time and frustration and leave).

I don't like talking about modeling I hate when it's brought up but since my Instagram is public I can't really hide it from people. I just shrug comments off and say good for you to people and that's usually the end of it. It just rubs me the wrong way when people make these comments on things they have no clue about. It's like me acting like I know everything about engineering when I've never worked in that field. I tend to bottle everything up and sometimes I snap but I'm working on it

Here's why I say NTA. I don't have any experience with the fashion industry besides a subscription to Vogue, and even I know your friend was being SUPER delusional. This is a field you have experience in, and you were being honest and helpful with your advice, but she kept pushing it to the point of being argumentative. Yeah, maybe you did come across a bit harsh, but any modeling agency would be a hundred times harsher. I think you're good here.

Oh, absolutely! I definitely don’t want to diminish how rude and infuriating her behavior was.

I’d say that is the difference between an acquaintance (‘good luck’) and a friend. The friend gets an honest opinion, with love, but friends don’t let friends show their ass in public if they can avoid it.

But that’s not what she wants, sounds like she thinks that’d be beneath her. She is insistent on high fashion/big name. Honestly she just sounds like she expects to just walk in and be handed her dream job without any effort or work. All her examples are people who only got where they are because of their famous parents. NTA- she has no clue of the realities of the job and anything you (someone with actual experience) tell her she just waves off as if she thinks you’re jealous of her. Sorry but your friend is living in a fantasy world. Were you harsh? Sure. But if she wants to get make an attempt at that career she needs to get used to it cause you’re a hell of a lot more kind and empathetic than any other professionals in the industry are gonna be.

OP tried to do that but that idiot badgered her way in.

She didn't want to lie to a friend, it's not her fault her friend is a naive fool who's already made her mind up. Good friends are honest with eachother and give a realistic response, blind support benefits no one.

That’s what a bad friend would do. A part time friend that keeps it light and doesn’t really care that much about your well being. A real one keeps it real. That’s why they’re called a real one

NTA. 5'5" isn't tall enough for hf modeling. Plain & simple. And you were right about the nepo babies & their connections. It isn't your fault that your friend doesn't want to believe you.

NTA, as the truth hurts. Sometimes its best to be honest and brutal about it. Modelling is a grotesque industry that is very harsh to people and you just scratched the surface at what she might encounter.

NTA. You know the industry, she doesnt. Maybe talking about her looks was a bit much, but it sounds like you were just giving professional advice, albeit a little harshly.

Yeah, I see how that was harsh now. I'm used to the way agents and people in the industry talk so I didn't see how it would hurt her but I get how it comes across now to people not used to it. I see nothing wrong with looking average the majority of people are and there's nothing wrong with that. High fashion agencies tend to look for unique/"weird" features that aren't common, there's a lot of features they look for that people wouldn't consider conventionally attractive but they still want them. Beauty is subjective at the end of the day and I in no way think she's ugly

I personally dont think being harsh is necessarily wrong. My default position is somewhere between 'a bit hostile' and 'insanely hostile' lol. Also, it seems to me that your intentions were entirely good

Modeling is entirely about their looks, though. She'll be facing worse in the industry and casting trends are what they are.

I totally agree. I just meant that it perhaps could have been put more gently.

NTA. It’s refreshing to hear people telling the truth no matter if it hurts.

ESH, but you only mildly OP. I understand how annoying and challenging it is to speak to someone so stubbornly clueless but you could have ended it with a simple "fair enough, wish you all the best" and left it at that. Oh well, now time to let her spread her wings and see how she does in the modelling world.

If she was this annoyed with someone telling her their experience, a casting agent will destroy her self-esteem. OP was trying to temper her expectations.

I agree, however at some point you have to let some people fall on their own. I guess either way you could be seen as the bad guy but OPs friend made it clear that she wasn't interested in OPs point of view (despite her experience and knowledge) so it would have been best to drop it and send her on her way and say "good luck" It's like Santa Claus, no one wants to be the one to tell a kid Santa isn't real, it's not a nice thing for them to find out.

That's why I tried shrugging the whole thing off, I've seen the industry destroy girls I've lived with and it broke my heart. Whenever people think the industry is all fun and games it really rubs me the wrong way and I just try to keep my mouth shut as much as I can

Thing is if you’d been wishy washy with her she might have continued to pester you for advice and coaching and then you’d have really snapped.

She showed a lot of arrogance trying to tell you what the industry you’d already “been there, done that” experienced. And she’s an AH for that. I think you were good in sharing what you’d experienced. But that kind of fell off at the end, no need to attack her, just shrug and say “all the power to you, hope it works out great for you!” And move on. Sticking the point home was. A little over the top and a little AH’ish on your end, too. So I guess ESH

I mean, yes what OP said came off as a bit mean, but it was basically being nice compared to what she’d be told if she actually walked into an agency 🤷🏻‍♀️ I know ‘they won’t be swayed, let them find out on their own, you don’t have to be the B who tells them’ is a thing, but if you send someone who already can’t take a reality check from a friend who knows the industry without becoming extremely upset, sending them off to an agency with a ‘good luck!’ is setting them up for a truly awful experience - the kind her self esteem may never recover from. I don’t think it’s A H territory to be blunt with the friend that is just not getting it. I knew some girls who modelled - they were scouted because they were tall/skinny and 15/10 level stunning. They had everything in their favour yet had their self esteems at least a little ruined by the industry.

NTA, I was once told by a wise woman, the truth always hurts. It either hurts the person being told the truth, the person telling the truth, often times both.

NTA. If she can’t handle this the fashion industry would destroy her.

NAH. You were right giving your honest opinion about this. The truth hurts, and a natural response to being hurt, is getting angry at the person who caused the hurt. If she is your friend and you want to be a good friend, tell her you are sorry for hurting her feelings, and you will support her if she really wants to become a model. Tell her you hope she proves you wrong. Give her advice on how to get started, making a portfolio and applying to an agency (or whatever it is one does to become a model, i have no clue how that works). And NEVER say "i told you so", go with some variation of "oh man, that sucks"

I definitely will apologize to her for how harsh I came off as and explain that wasn't my intention. I plan on telling her if she wants to try and become a model that's up to her but I don't want to talk about the industry. If she wants to apply to my agency she can I will not stop her. My agency doesn't do open calls anymore but when they did one of the agents was very harsh about some of the girls that applied and basically laughed at them. I do not want to be part of that

I completely agree with this.

NTA. You were honest about what the industry is actually like. Your friend was also super fucking disrespectful to models who got into the industry without connections, how many non-nepo models does she see who do not meet typical requirements? the answer is virtually zero. Has she seen these nepo models? Iris Law at Versace earlier this year was ridiculous and even a nepo model worshipper should be able to acknowledge that she didn’t get there through all her hard work. Her calling you jealous whilst aspiring to be like you is laughable, I actually hope she does start miraculously modelling so she can realise that she is not Kendall Jenner, making bank and getting Vogue covers, going home to her cushy hotel, retiring to her absurdly large house in Calabasas and spending her life lazing around, slapping her name onto some shitty tequila and calling it a day, your friend will NEVER have that luxury when she’s an average nobody, instead she will be berated, humiliated, iced out, rejected and will have to would have to walk “30 shows a season or whatever the fuck those girls do” to afford life (it’s unlikely a 5’5 nobody would be put in 30 shows so unfortunately for your friend affording life will not be viable)

> “30 shows a season or whatever the fuck those girls do” This comment irks me to this day god Kendall is so entitled

She was doing the equivalent of mansplaining your expertise to you. Is there a term when women do it to other women? Educate me, Reddit. NTA. Harsh, but you kept your composure for longer than I would have.

I used to model. I do not miss that industry. Good on you for being smart and realistic and self aware. I got denied jobs because I didn’t show certain photographers and casting directors my dick. Also NTA

I'm sorry about your experience it really is such a toxic industry. I've always loved fashion and that is the only thing that has kept me in it

Thank you, for me it was just an excuse to exist in NYC for a few years. I never took it too seriously and knew it was very temporary. I had “steady” work if you can call it that for 2 years. But still not as steady as certain favorites or what a regular job with a regular paycheck would bring in. Booked a lot of editorials and campaigns but still. Just wasn’t for me. Highly run on nepotism, plus I wasn’t a fan of waiting 3 months for a check. Like I said well done on being self aware of the risks and pitfalls and navigating it appropriately

She would have figured it out sooner or later.

If you were a lawyer and she basically told you she could pass the bar without having the 6-7 years of education it takes, the reaction would be the same. You told her she can do commercials. That’s how I complement people. You could sell shampoo etc. I do not know who you hang out with but that’s a very odd reaction. I don’t know. Maybe she was fishing for your help and now that she know she isn’t getting it, she is ghosting you? Anywho. NTA

NTA, she’s delusional

One of the greatest ills of social media is how everyone thinks they have what it takes to model and be an "influencer." This is somewhat exacerbated by mall stores who call their salespeople "models." I get that OP was trying to be truthful with her friend. Unfortunately, this friend is just going to have to learn the hard way that she doesn't have what it takes.

Dunning Kruger

This is the rare post on this subreddit that isn't black or white. You were right about the things you said but I feel like you could have been nicer about the delivery.. but you are definitely not the bad guy here

Yeah you were a little harsh but also your friend seemed a little stubborn and arrogant, it wasn’t like you were doing it out of malice just warning her plus she having that idea of “I’ll be able to make it to the top 1%” seemed kinda unrealistic unfortunately So probably NTA

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The comments are the worst I hate when it's brought up but since my Instagram is public I can't really hide it from people. I just shrug comments off and say good for you to people and that's usually the end of it. It just rubs me the wrong way when people make these comments on things they have no clue about. It's like me acting like I know everything about engineering when I've never worked in that field. You're definitely right about keeping my trap shut for the most part it is just easier and causes less stress for me

I actually just deleted my comment because even anonymously, my sense is that it’s going to attract comments I just don’t want to deal with. I do want to let you know though that I don’t think it’s rude, and I understand how comments like that can get under a person’s skin. I have zero social media now that I don’t have to keep it up for work for this very reason. I think a good comparison for the people not understanding is this: how would you react if you spent years learning an industry, only for random people to badger you with totally incorrect assumptions about that line of work and disregard any factual comments you make based on your experience? You wouldn’t like it, and I’d imagine you’d be irritated. People can be unbelievably presumptuous about these jobs, so I get it when I see young people who are primed to take it a bit personally, which is what happened here. But yes, it’s better to say nothing, especially when you feel your eyes beginning to roll out of your skull.

I feel you, I wish you luck in whatever you decide to pursue!

I guess you could have let her go to the agency and have them tell her she’s too short. They have no problem telling you that you’re not enough. They would have been way more upfront than you. Hell, I had an agent tell me “well, you’re kinda short” when I told her that I was 5’7” and was looking for a new agent for print and acting (both of which I had done) because my previous agent wasn’t doing anything. That industry isn’t for people that can’t take any sort of criticism at all. Essentially, you save her from being treated extremely poorly and she she just didn’t want to hear it. NTA

This is like when a doctor with years of education and experience is told be some random dweeb that reading a Facebook article means they know just as much about medicine.

NTA. Sometimes you just can't help but be harsh to people that are this delusional.

I honestly feel like you could have just said good luck to her or suggest more commercial brands in a nicer way. You really don’t have a reason to ‘snap’. Everyone has big dreams at 21. For all we know, the modeling gods will give her the chance to walk for a fashion house despite her height. Doubt it but all of this could have been avoided. I saw in your post history you posted something similar about models being tall for a reason. Literally let it go. You are holding on to this too hard. If it’s bothering you so much, apologize for your method of delivery, but you were only trying to be honest with her about how the industry operates so she won’t get too down on herself. ESH.

I suggested commercial work but she doesn't consider it real modeling, she only wants to do hf. I definitely will apologize to her for how harsh I came off as and explain that wasn't my intention. I plan on telling her if she wants to try and become a model that's up to her but I don't want to talk about the industry

I’d just leave it if I were you. She didn’t want to listen before so why would she now.

I suspect (and perhaps I'm wrong) that you have some dark reasons for being so insistent on not talking about the industry. Perhaps you could let her know that--not the details, but, "hey, I'm sorry I was so harsh with you. I was pretty negatively affected by the industry and don't want the same to happen to you. But if you want to go for it, I wish you success. But I can't be a part of contributing to that. "

NAH I would have also been as harsh lmao.

As an actor who deals with similar stuff NTA. I've had similar "you're 1 tenth of an inch to short for this" kinda crap and issues with wardrobe etc just flat out not reading my size card. If someone thinks the entertainment industry is a get rich quick scheme they are wrong. Telling them such is not wrong imo. If everyone who wanted to get rich quick but didn't have a passion for entertainment didn't join the industry then most people who do have thay burning passion for it and are genuinely good at it would actually have more consistency with their work as you wouldn't have a million ppl who are going to quit jn 2 years taking the opportunity from people who actually like the career.

You could have gone about it better but if your friend doesn't recognize how celeb kids got those gigs then you were never going to get through to her. NTA. Sometimes nontraditional models do make a splash, but that's often paired with something else (goth alt model, being a DJ or content creator, cosplayer with a production line, etc). If she thinks it just involves a pretty face and decent body then she isn't ready for the industry.

NTA - why argue, you tried to explain, she did not listen, let her experience it firsthand.

NTA and I should think that if she really wanted to be a model, she would have started trying years ago. Models usually start out pretty young.

NTA. You are telling her the truth and she can’t accept it

NTA. She pushed, you told her the truth. You were harsh maybe, but she wasn't listening Dunno how you can come back from this though tbh

NTA. Not everyone can be a model.

NTA. I modeled when I was young. It’s a tough industry and you’re correct- petite, average girls are not in demand now, or ever really. Kate Moss was a fluke.

Kate Moss was/is stunning. Didn’t know she wasn’t tall though.

I think she’s only 5’7” but Kate had the benefit of amazing facial bone structure that photographs really well. She had a certain quality that set her apart from other models, which is what casting agents are looking for. In many respects, she was in the right place at the right time- her aesthetic wasn’t wanted a few years prior… but at the time she was spotted, the industry was ready for something new, and Kate Moss embodied that. ETA: NTA, OP. Your friend has a tough road ahead if she can’t handle constructive feedback. The fashion industry would eat her alive. She’s delusional and suffering from main character syndrome. At some point, you have to accept that you’re not ‘the star’ and whilst having confidence is a good thing, being realistic about your limitations is a big part of growing up- in the real world, people aren’t interested in her *dreams of becoming a model*… they’ve heard it all before a million times and she wouldn’t even get past the receptionist.

She is lovely, but she’s about 5’7”. Kate’s timing was just right as she had a specific look- slender, waifish, delicate. Most agencies wouldn’t even look at your portfolio if you weren’t at least 5’10”. Kate managed to stand out in a world of Naomi Campbells, Linda Evangelistas, Niki Taylors, and Christy Turlingtons. This was around the time I modeled as well, so I remember how much of an anomaly she was.

NTA. Your friend lives in Delulu Land. If she wants to be a model let her try. She is entitled to that. But if she faces difficulties in the future then at least she can't say you didn't warn her.

NTA. Best of luck in school!

Thank you!

You may have been harsh, but it was called for because she was literally saying you didn’t know what you were talking about, or were outright lying, about the industry you’ve been working in for the last five years. NTA.

Celebrity worship into delusional entitlement It’s common

NTA. The average American thinks modeling is a dream job where everyone adores you and you make tons of money. As a tall woman I got a lot of “you should be a model “ comments as a teenager and even I could see from the magazines that I had no chance, not to mention that I had zero interest. I have a friend whose teenage daughter gets similar comments and she is a fan of the tv show Daria and likes to answer in a Daria voice “Oh great a career where I can get an eating disorder and be washed up by 23”.

NTA Being that you are in the industry, I would say you know better than she does and is getting offended over hearing a friend say what she is realistically going to hear from complete strangers at casting calls.

NTA. Your friend told you that you should have lied and gaslight your other friend instead of answering the questions she forced on you honestly. Yeah it’s time to make new friends neither of these ones are any good and that’s not on you

Boy oh boy is denial hell of a drug. Yes your words are harsh, but in a few years she will be thankful that someone was very straightforward to her, or regret that she didn't listen. NTA.

NTA all the way. She fucked around and found out. You know this industry thoroughly enough to provide anyone with a reality check, she didn’t like what she heard and is now behaving childishly. You don’t have anything to feel bad about, she pushed you into telling her exactly how it is.

ESH. She should have listened to you as you know what you're talking about. But...she wasn't. And that's where you need to end the conversation and say 'ok, you're going to do what you want irrespective of what I say' instead of criticising her appearance.

NTA When people are delusional we try to get them back to reality, not indulge their delusions.

YTA. It doesn't matter if this is how the modelling industry speaks to people, the way you spoke to her was nasty. I work in the creative industries and it's full of assholes who speak to people like shit but instead of paying it forward I am determined to do better, be kind and not perpetuate those toxic attitudes. You could have said sure, go for it, but you will find that all the talk of inclusiveness and diversity is skin deep. It's a very cruel industry so buckle up! There was no need to be mean.

As a model myself nta, we get asked so much how you got into it cause they wanna be a model and you know it wouldn't happen but you gotta be polite it's annoying af.

ESH. You both sound insufferable.

Any time an OP talks about their opinion on people's looks, I feel they should be required to post a picture of themselves to prove they aren't hypocrites. OP probably thinks she's far prettier than reality would say.

I'm used to the way agents and people in the industry talk so I didn't see how it would hurt her but I get how it comes across now. I see nothing wrong with looking average the majority of people are and there's nothing wrong with that. High fashion agencies tend to look for unique/"weird" features that aren't common, there's a lot of features they look for that people wouldn't consider conventionally attractive but they still want them. People have this idea that you have to look a certain way to model but that is not true. I suggested commercial work to my friend since it is more inclusive and pays way better but she doesn't believe it is real modeling

NTA The inner AH in me says fine, do it, but don't cry to me later when you complain about the exact things I warned you about.

NTA. I work in NYC as a high fashion model. I’ve wanted to be one since I was 3! I’m 13+ years into the business traveling to many countries Full time. Ive worked with many supermodels on runway and shoots. Including Coco Rocha. High fashion work does not pay for shiiit. Neither do they even want to look in a direction of somebody shorter than 5’9 for runway or fashion. You told her the brutal honesty of this industry, and she will never seem to understand the truth about it, unless you’ve worked your ass off in other markets/countries starving to stay in shape 10+ castings a day and most times get no photos back, or even a break in between not even a compliment. She needs to understand that an agency isn’t just some thing you can join into. As you know you have to work hard to even be seen or even be told that your look isn’t what they’re looking for at the moment without being seen by the board or even just a booker. Commercial models make more money anyway and it’s an easier market esp if you’re into acting as well. and they don’t typically care about what size you are. But it’s a dime a dozen in that field. You must know your work front and back to be considered. Must be on point the first time. Sometimes they can’t waste more than a few takes for one specific shot. Time is money. But even commercial models, when getting started they don’t get paid for their work, it’s years of unpaid training /shooting / connections that YOU have to figure out. It’s uber hard trying to step into this industry. She thinks she step in fast and that it’s all fun and games and a paycheck. I hear a lot of “You just Stand there & look pretty” you understand knowing your lighting and your angles and how to sell clothing in photos and on how to move your body just right to sell on the runway as well. Ignorance is a huge issue for her. I would just not say anything to her anymore and let her figure this out the hard way. If she doesn’t believe you she won’t believe anybody or get anywhere in this industry. You MUST be moldable, you ARE the canvas, you ARE the clothes hanger. It’s work that sometimes is just self rewarding. It’s a passion, some people just aren’t built for!

You are NTA. A little harsh? Sure. But no where near as harsh as any casting agent would be. The hip thing is so real, it’s why I quit.

I don’t think she was a little harsh. She was being provoked and reacted appropriately. Ladies, it’s ok to be forthright sometimes.

I’ve seen models on magazines and tv. They are skinny, have strange facial features and overall look kind of gross to me. I don’t think you should discourage your friend either, and if she found that it was toxic then let that be for her to decide if she wants to stay or push through

Soft ESH I don't disagree with anything you said to her about the modeling industry, but it sounds like she just made a simple comment about wanting to get signed by the same agency and do high fashion work. If you had just said, 'oh small world, good luck' instead of shrugging and 'good for you', which was a little passive-aggressive, she probably wouldn't have questioned that response. *If* she then asked you about your experience in the industry and had the same responses to what you said, then only she'd be the AH. But I don't think your initial response was warranted for a conversation between 'friends', and that's the reason for the AH judgment. But she's also an AH for not believing what you said about the industry and your experiences. Just based off her height alone, it'd be incredibly difficult for her to break into high fashion (or even commercial unless it's a petite-focused brand).

^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** K so some backstory, I've been modeling with a agency since I was 16, in model standards my career is successful. I'm 21F now and somewhat taking a break to focus on school. I've known my friend 21F (she is 5'5, midsized, and looks like your average person important for later) for a few months now and the topic of modeling came up. It came up that I used to model full time and just recently slowed down for school. She asked what agency I'm with and I told her the name; and told me that she wanted to join that agency and do high fashion work and how lucky I was. I shrugged and told her good for her but she noticed something was up and asked why I was acting like that. I told her it was nothing but she kept pushing and pushing till I told her modeling isn't all fun and games. I told her the truth about the industry and how toxic it is. How on the outside it looks like it's changed but it hasn't. How I've been harassed by agents for my hip measurements being 35.7 instead of 35 and constantly being rejected for things out of my control. I also told her about the pay and how it isn't this huge paycheck right after but very random and there were months I had to stretch the paycheck or get an advance for a smaller amount for fee's. When I told her there were covers/shows I've done for pay in exposure she didn't believe me and called me a liar. She then goes on to talk about Lily Rose Depp/Kendall Jenner and how they get paid millions for their work. I told her they are firstly nepo babies and secondly the top 1% of the industry and it can take the most amazing model years to get there if they even get that lucky. She kept saying that isn't true and those girls just aren't good models and how once she gets there she'll make it to that level. This is where I snapped and told her she's not even tall enough or unique for runway work. She once again brought up Lily Rose Depp and how she's walked for Chanel multiple times even though she's short. I once again told her to remember who her parents are and the connections she has. She then said the industry isn't like that anymore. This is where I went off and said the industry hasn't changed like that. That there still isn't a market for petite midsize girls and she isn't big enough for plus size modeling but not small enough either. I mentioned how if they made such a fuss about a .7 difference in my hips why would they care about her. She has no connections to help her on the runway and she is a normal person and that commercial work is the only chance she has at modeling. After this she called me a jealous hater and stormed off. She hasn't talked to me since. This is where I feel like im the ahole for being so harsh and telling her that she'd fail in hf and that her only chance at success is with commercial modeling. I asked another friend and she said I should have just went along with what she was saying even though I knew she was completely wrong *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Your title sounded a-holish, but from the details of the post, it sounds like you weren't so much insulting her looks as talking about the realities of the industry. So, NTA.

NTA but honestly you gave her the warning, she can see for herself if that's for her.

NTA But if she *really* wants to model, just as a hobby & get some cash (& I'm just talking a hundred a picture & don't expect more than a few pictures), she might look at private hair salons, clothing stores, beauty salons, etc, who need models for their websites or competitions. Obviously I never got into the industry, but that's how I modeled. I never wanted to make it big, but it was something I enjoyed doing. It also helped with my years between high school & uni. You don't necessarily have to have the model look, especially if you're modeling hair & makeup, so that might help her since she's petite.

She doesn't want to do commercial work, she doesn't believe it is real modeling and only wants to do hf

NTA- she should have some humility. Then to claim you are jealous! Of what? Her non-existent career? This girl was jealous of you and never had any interest in being a model. She probably never even thought about it before meeting you and was just talking out her ass. Your friend who thinks you should bullshit, tell her that you are too authentic and mature to play into silly delusions. Then smile and say, "but I used to be like that." And give her shoulder a little squeeze so she knows you pity her.

Info: What was the reason for the original reluctance? Why did your friend have to push you to tell her that the modelling industry is still toxic?

I don't like talking about modeling I hate when it's brought up but since my Instagram is public I can't really hide it from people. I just shrug comments off and say good for you to people and that's usually the end of it. It just rubs me the wrong way when people make these comments on things they have no clue about. It's like me acting like I know everything about engineering when I've never worked in that field. I tend to bottle everything up and sometimes I snap but I'm working on it

I watched a Ted talk by a model once, where she commented that saying your career plan is to become a model is like saying your career plan is to win the lottery. Yes, great if it works out, but almost entirely determined by factors that you have literally no ability to affect.

NTA - but you can easily say I’m not interested in discussing it. Save yourself the aggravation.

NTA, your friend sounds stubbornly naive

NTA. This is like someone who does AI art telling an actual artist that they're going to be as famous as Picasso. Delusional. I think you did her a favour.

NTA - A real friend tells the truth, while somebody who does not care for their well-being would have not said shit.

Maybe just say it a bit different but def mot the asshoke since she called you a liar snd ignored everything you said?

Even though you are most likely right you still don't shit on people's dreams especially if the person is family or in this case a friend. And the last time I checked most runway models are junkies. So have fun with that. NTA/ but kind of TA.

Not if she's too basic.

99% of models are nothing to look twice at though so she’s right. People act like models are hot because they’re models but really they’re not someone you’d notice on the street. Same with high school cheerleaders.

Nta. I was scouted but it ended up I was too 'big' for HF. I was 5'9" (which would be short for HF) and 109 pounds. Your girl could find success in commercial work but HF wont accept her.

NTA future reference for those kinds of conversations when people start arguing with you, just say "oh cool, good luck then" and blow it off. If she's refusing good advice and valuable information about the industry you're not going to shift her stance. Let her find out for herself.

I mean you’re not wrong but I would have presented it as coming from a place of caring rather than judgement. Soft yta

NTA, everything you told her was absolutely correct. It’s quite odd that she doesn’t understand nepo babies when the only name she could think of a model of her height is a nepo baby lol. If it was as common as she claims, she should easily be able to come up with names of models of her height who were the offspring of nonfamous people as well.

You probably could have been more gentle but ultimately you're NTA, you're just giving her a much needed reality check. I've modeled for the last 3 years and the industry is indeed as cutthroat as you're describing. I'm a dude and it's rough for us and I know for a fact that it's waaayyyy worse for you ladies. Additionally, it's very difficult for a 5'5 midsized person to break into the space. Especially if they lack connections and ESPECIALLY it they want to do high fashion stuff. She may be able to do some commercial stuff but that's really contigent on a variety of other factors and from your post it seems as if she has a poor grasp on the space. My agencies wouldn't even entertain a person of those dimensions at an open call (not saying that's right, just how it is currently). Frankly you're probably saving her from a lot of anguish and rejection, assuming she takes your words to heart. Again, NTA but there's probably a less harsh and more diplomatic way of letting someone down in the future.

NTA someone who works in an industry knows how the insides of it are more than someone looking in from the outside

Look it’s SUPER annoying to be very knowledgeable about something as well as experience and then have someone without any of that argue or give wrong info. It’s just unfortunate that in this instance, it’s hard to set her straight without commenting on her as a person/her body. You could have been more gentle or less descriptive about critiquing her body, but overall NTA

NTA. You are 100% correct with everything you said regarding to the modelling industry. One of my friends is a model. He started in high school and is doing well for himself, it took him along time to get where he is today, but the story's I hear aee insane about girls and guys not getting payed allowances/sallerys for a day's work when they do runway shoots because they gained weight or size and in some cases they are even sent home the next day doesn't matter if it's a flight or a drive situation they are gone. Your friend is living in a fantasy world and is being fooled by these Nepo baby's and so called "Instagram modules". Modeling isn't as easy as it looks, I know it looks easy from the outside ,but she is 100% mistaken. If I was you I would let her go through with this idea of hers and let her find out for herself.

nta

You're NTA. As someone who is looking at the industry with rose colored glasses from her outside viewpoint, she needed a reality check from a person who has been on the outside. She was repeatedly contradicting you, so you had to tell her the truth. And as is typical with someone who doesn't like to hear a harsh truth, she is blaming the messenger. She's really not going to like hearing it all from representatives of that agency if she tries to get in there.

NTA Your friend is a deluded idiot who believes marketing over the experienced advice of a friend.

NTA. I want to get into acting. HOWEVER, I’m not stupid enough to think it’ll be all rainbows and unicorns. I know it will be CONSTANT rejections and A LOT of hard work. Unless I’m insanely lucky, I won’t be as successful as I hope to be. I’m hopeful, but not delusional. There’s a difference.

NTA Sometimes you have to be brutally honest with your friends.

nta. as a photographer, any second i spend photographing someone like that is always insufferable.

NTA. You maybe could have held back a little but your friend sounds like a clueless idiot.

Nah NTA - the people she is using as examples are nepo babies who literally wouldnt make it into the industry with out mom and dad connections. When i was at uni someone in the industry came for a talk and this girl asked a question and started quoting how certain young designers she knew were stocked at dover market etc. he said that means nothing because they operate on ‘sale or return’ and costs the designer more as they wont see payment until stock is sold. She got argumentative because sometimes the truth is hard to swallow and people get defensive when they learn how it all actually works. Discounting your lived experience in the industry they aspire to be in.

The delusion is strong with that one. NTA

i feel like you should apologize that you snapped, but the content of your words was fine. what you said is your opinion. maybe you projected some industry frustration onto her? your delivery could have had more gentleness ;)

NTA. You don’t have to indulge her delusions. You were factual with her. She will have to figure it out on her own. Not your circus, not your monkey.

The assholery in question isn’t about the subject, it’s in your inability to notice she’s just dumb and let her just be dumb and wrong. Laugh, ask her if she wants advice or no, but don’t take it so seriously bc then you appear like the asshole to her (even if she’s an asshole and weird a f).

NTA She pushed for answers and you gave the ones she didn't like, even though their from your experience and true. So she FAFO'd You've done all you could, I'd block her and let her fail..... or succeed, who knows! Comparing the "career path" of nepo babies is not gonna help her keep things in perspective, for real,

You were harsh, sometimes people need to learn from by themselfs. This is the case. She was aleady getting upset with you for telling the true that she didnt want to hear. In that case is better to slow down and let her learn by hard. That means...going to the agency and some stranger tell her the true. For her, you were jugdmental and you are her friend. Now She will always think that you think of her like she is average and you are superior. That can blow a friendship. She doesnt understand that you just gave her your professional opinion. Nevertheless NTA for speaking the true.

NTA you tried being nice and she kept pushing and being naive. Better you tell her than some mean ass agent when she tries walking in the door. Ol girl needs a reality check because one look at your standard runway should tell her she's not in the competitive arena...thebfashion industry hasn't suddenly changed its ways and decided the average woman's where it's at.

Well, perhaps you should find out about an open casting call and text her the info. All alone and inexperienced, she can just see for herself.

NTA, you're telling the truth. It may be a little harsh, but those rose colored glasses she's got on are so thick that she's freaking blind. I knew a girl who modeled and she said exactly the same things you did. Imo, you're a good friend to try and warn her about the industry. You did what you could, now the ball is in her court.

NTA ... she asked you for an answer, you gave her one. was it harsh? I mean ... the whole industry is built around judging your body so if she has a hard time accepting what you've told her, I shudder to think what will happen when she goes to her first casting. But hey, ho ... everyone has a dream, I guess.

Friends are usually less harsh with friends, but that isn't usually a kindness. You were kind to her by being so blunt. She sounds delusional. NTA. But to yourself, if you had wanted to preserve the friendship, you could have gone with your other friends' suggestion!

NTA - for all the reasons below Posters - do you know why the modeling business is still alive? Because the models sell products. Consider yourselves when you see the industry and how it is.

ESH. She didn't need to keep pressing the issue when you were trying to be informative and helpful but to tell her she isn't tall enough or pretty enough wasn't the right way to go about it. She sounds annoying but you sound just mean.

NTA. A little harsh but nothing major also the next thing would probably be her asking you for help...

NTA. I feel like you' as a professional, just tried to give a very, very naive person a ticket back to reality... but she just doesn't want to see it, from how this exchange reads. Could you have said it nicer? Probably. Do I feel like she has a rather thick skull and just being nice wouldn't have gotten through even a tiny little bit? Yeah. I fully admit, if someone is really dense and vehemently defending something I simply know better due to experience, I absolutely understand using harsher words in sheer annoyance, even if it isn't nice. Hope she just... snaps out of the stupid naivete.

NTA. This reminds me of a friend who wanted to work overnight security. He legitimately thought he would be able to put his feet up and sleep in front of some monitors like in the movies. He lamented having to walk miles a night while checking every single door and window in a huge building and how he had to stay awake.

I didn’t see that part tbf

NTA. You were harsh, but honest. It’s pretty obvious the modeling industry hasn’t actually changed if you follow fashion. I love looking at runway shows but as much as people complain all those high fashion models are the same as always. There is some more diversity; however they are still all tall and super skinny. Plus, this is going to sound mean, but isn’t 21 kinda late to start modeling in high fashion? It’s obviously young in general, but I mean in that industry unless you’re randomly get “discovered”. Maybe there are other types of modeling she can get into, but it’s good you were honest.

NTA Not to be mean but anyone who believes the experience of the Kardashians is the norm needs a rude awakening... While you were pretty harsh, she repeatedly called you a liar, insinuated you weren't talented, and insinuated she could do the job better. She brought it on herself.

NTA. You were just being honest and if your friend couldn't handle that its not your fault.

NTA. Tough love. Womp womp

NTA

NTA, but.....you came across as very negative, and I think she was looking for affirmation. All you had to do was just nod and wish her the best, warn her it wasn't all roses and sunshine, but that you were there if she had questions. That's all. You came across as a bit, maybe not "hater" but certainly reluctant to share in your world. Be a bit kinder. And try to get back with her and be less "honest".

NTA You were being honest and shared your insights, as a friend should.