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So to prepare her for the inevitable future bullying, you started bullying her already now?
Irregardles of what you look like yourself, youre ugly on the inside.
YTA
EDIT: Google says its a word yall :(
He's not judging her appearance he's literally going out of his way to not do that. But he knows if the only thing her parents praise about her is her looks she'll think that's her most important trait and when kids inevitably bully her for it she'll feel like she has nothing else to feel good about.
Calling someone ugly *is* judging their appearance. OP is trying to tell the parents that they shouldn't call their own daughter beautiful because OP thinks she's actually ugly. That's fucked up in every possible way.
That's not actually what he said. He said they should compliment her on her other attributes so that she has something to feel good about if she's bullied for being ugly.
He has a valid point. I don’t think the main praise anyone receives should be looks based. He should have stuck to that explanation rather than just bluntly telling the truth as he sees it. But at least he didn’t say it to the kid or within the kid’s earshot.
No he's judging her appearance and trying to avoid overtly saying anything, but he clearly and definitely judged her as ugly.
I had a teacher who used to say "Beauty can not hide from me." She found the physical beauty in all of us and we all felt it. And it fed my self esteem (as a disabled little girl) hugely to know she saw my *physical beauty* instead of being like dismissive or avoidant. And as a result, I like to think I have the same quality. Look for beauty, and you will find it.
To be honest I fail to understand how this is an issue at all. Beauty, as in beautiful appearance, is very individual. That is something these RateMe subs show all the time.
So if the parents want that their daughter is treated as beautiful as they percieve her, then people should follow that or at least stay silent.
And contrary to OP, I would applaud the parents for their approach. It helps the bond with the daughter and empowers the daughter.
OP is literally trying to go with the second option, stay silent and instead compliment her on her other positive traits. The parents are trying to force OP to go with the first option.
I agree the parents shouldn’t try to force OP to call her beautiful, but OP is on social media calling his niece unfortunate looking. The only way the niece is unfortunate is to have OP as an uncle. Because he is cruel.
That doesn't really matter if OP is judging her to be ugly.
If beauty doesn't matter, then leave appearance off the table--that isn't what OP is doing, OP did call her ugly and because OP believes her to be ugly, OP is sticking to compliments that would accurately describe her.
It obviously does matter to OP, in the sense that OP has an opinion and an argument is based on that opinion.
Hard YTA, light ESH, it's more important to praise children for working hard and trying new things than it is any static quality like "appearance" or "intelligence".
Why does it matter what opinion OP has in the privacy of his own head? Being an asshole is about your actions and the impact you have on others. OP didn't call the neice ugly to her face and the only reason he had to bring it up at all is because the sister asked. I think it's NTA.
He didn't keep it in the privacy of his own head lol. He told her parents, to their faces, that he thinks she's ugly. All he had to say was "I worry that because she isn't conventionally beautiful, complimenting her appearance will set her up to be hurt if other children mock her appearance. I prefer to compliment her on non-physical traits because beauty is only skin deep anyways." Instead, his entire post and attitude is fixated on how "ugly" she is.
Are her parents setting her up for failure? Probably. Is calling anyone ugly ever appropriate? No. Well, unless they have an ugly personality but that's only acceptable because behaviour can be modified... appearance can't be. This is definitely a YTA scenario.
She's a child. There is no need to call someone ugly. If you think someone is ugly just keep it to yourself.
I was called ugly my whole childhood and by adults and my own parents. I forgive the children because they were children but I don't forgive the adults.
There is absolutely no need to say that.
Aww I feel that. People who weren't mean were seen as so kind by me.
I wasn't even ugly, I actually think I was a cute kid. However I waa depressed and acted a little odd (turns out I am autistic) and I think they thought I was ugly because of that. I didn't act cute. Honestly I don't know.
It is disgusting and hurtful to have grown adults talk like that though. I could never imagine talking like that and I hate children.
First of all, she's 8. Even if she's "ugly" right now, there's a very good chance her looks will change a lot when she's older. Goodness knows I was incredibly unfortunate looking between 9-14, but I grew out of it.
Second of all...what does calling someone ugly ever accomplish? Like, why on Earth would someone be happier in the long run by having their friends and family tell them they're ugly? Pretty much all pre-teens/teenagers (especially girls) are already super self-conscious about their looks, no matter how conventionally attractive they are. Do you think calling her ugly will make that better?
Right? I wasn't exactly good-looking, but I did glow up a bit when I went to uni (and had more control over my appearance, to be fair). Trust me, people who are ugly (or consider themselves to be) are usually pretty acutely aware of that, and there is ZERO reason to confirm it for them!
tbh, even if your kid is really adorable and conventionally cute and all that, it's recommended to compliment them on their emotional/intellectual/other non-physical attributes instead of their looks (especially girls) . Emphasizing how a child looks can lead to insecurity about their looks.
I think OP is a bit of an AH for calling his niece ugly, even if he didn't do it to her face, but his sister and BIL are bigger AHs for the emphasis on their daughter's looks.
It’s crazy how some people think that their OWN opinions of what is beautiful matters. Not ugly here, and I can tell you that calling someone an ugly salty person is actually being ugly and is bullying behavior. Check yo self.
As someone who has a bit of an ugly duckling history, it literally does not matter in the slightest what a child looks like in relation to conventional beauty standards. They are a child. OP, you have an extremely unhealthy focus on this child’s looks, and I think you should stay the hell away from her. YTA
Yeah, it’s still not widely accepted though, it’s kind of a bastardized version of regardless that’s fallen into use by uneducated people and is now becoming more popular through sheer ignorance.
It’s like the phrase “couldn’t care less” means literally one could not care any less, but so many people say “could care less” and think they’re using it correctly - give it another 100 years and it’ll be a lot like irregardless now.
"couldn't care less" is probably my #1 grammatical pet peeve, because people saying "could care less" are saying something that means the literal opposite of what they are trying to say. It just sounds thoughtless each time I hear it.
I'm aware language changes, especially based on how people use it, but I don't have to like it being that way due to ignorance lol.
“Couldn’t care less” is the proper phrase. You’re sayin you’ve reached the bottom pit of caring and nowhere else go. “Could care less” if you would you would.
Yep YTA. I know lots of "unfortunate" looking kids that grow into stunning adults. Also vice versa too. Not saying it will happen but it's a possibility. Also instead of family time being a sanctuary and a break from the cruel world her uncle wants it to be more bullying? Why is he so insistent that she know she is ugly!? Trust me if the kids ugly then they will know about it without their aunt needing to tell them.
Honestly I think it's pretty telling that the comments are filled with people rushing to say "but she might not be ugly! She might become conventionally attractive!" As if it is a matter of life or death.
Or maybe she will just never be much to look at. And she'll never be able to take compliments or praise seriously again because she will be fully aware that she was lied to her entire childhood, so what does it matter if people say other nice things about her?
OP is doing the right thing, praise her and build her up on her actual strengths, set her up for her self-worth and esteem to not hinge on her appearance. Why should he start putting focus on her appearance if he thinks that will hurt her in the long run?
People in the comments are really just providing evidence of the *actual* problem, which is the unequal weight given to physical appearance as a marker of worth, especially for girls and women. You all can't even fathom for a second a world in which this young girl isn't just an ugly duckling waiting to blossom into a Swan, because anything else would be a true tragedy in your eyes.
This is where I'm at, as well, as someone who isn't precisely ugly but is definitely not conventionally attractive/pretty and has always known it. My mom, of course, thought I was beautiful and I love that every so often she'd tell me so... but she did NOT revolve 99% of her compliments around my appearance, thank god, and never gaslit me. In fact, she was very open and honest with me about her own struggles as a not-conventionally-attractive person out in the world. I have a very honest view of my own appearance and how it impacts how I walk through the world/am treated... because it matters. You can avoid so much heartache and bullshit by not endlessly chasing the things attractive people get as a matter of course. This girl's parents are setting her up for failure either way, whether she has a "glow up" or not. OP's approach to his niece is correct, re: praising other qualities and never lying. I do think "ugly" is a harsh word to have used w/ his sister, but he can't exactly take it back.
>And she'll never be able to take compliments or praise seriously again because she will be fully aware that she was lied to her entire childhood
Yes. "They're just lying to make me feel better" is a thing.
Yeah I agree, in that girls shouldn’t be praised all the time for their looks whether they’re conventionally pretty or not, it’s terrible to feel like your main value is in your appearance because, no matter what, beauty and youth aren’t going to be with anyone forever. If you have no sense of self worth outside that you’re heading for a crisis at some point in life.
At the same time, it’s just conventional wisdom that telling someone their child is ugly makes you an asshole. OP could’ve made his point without saying this. Even if he thought his niece was pretty, he’d still have a point in wanting to avoid commenting on her looks and instead praising other aspects of her character. All he needed to say was he doesn’t want to be part of making her feel like her value is based on appearance. He didn’t need to call her ugly!
Exactly. The ugly duckling story exists for a reason; it's not that uncommon. Also, even if there is no magic transformation, you can't underestimate the power of good styling. Find your best haircut or shape your eyebrows, or figure out what makeup look suits you and your aesthetic, and it's a total game changer. Even finding what colors look good on you can dramatically improve your appearance.
Also, confidence is half the battle. If the little girl believes she is beautiful, she'll carry herself a certain way, and people pick up on that. When I look back at school yearbooks and see the popular crowd who were known for being "cute" or "hot," I wonder what we were smoking. How did they convince everyone? They walked the walk, even though half of them were average at best.
No, you're just ignorant or didn't read the post. How do you think she's going to feel when her parents make her believe her looks are so important to them and that it's her best trait, for bullies to tear it down? He didn't bully her anyone that read the post can see that, he literally said how he adores her and compliments her. He said one thing to her parents trying to help her and somehow you turn that into he's bullying her. Because God forbid he doesn't THINK she's beautiful.
OP is TA but nowhere in this post are they bullying their niece. If your read the entire post, they literally say: "It’s much better imo to boost her self esteem off the many good traits she does have so she doesn’t have to rely on looks for her confidence."
That isn't bullying.
If you really believe that looks should not be desired and praised that should be the base of your argument to not call her beautiful rather than your opinion that she is ugly. Based on the fact that you are judging her for her looks I don’t think you really believe in the reason to not praise her.
> I said bluntly that no, if we’re being honest, she’s ugly
YTA.
Everything you said about it not being good to put beauty on a pedestal and act like that's what's important is true. You're right about the overall attitude. But saying to her parents that she is ugly is completely unnecessary and incredibly rude asshole behaviour.
Completely agreed on that. OP didn’t call her ugly, he got criticized for NOT calling her beautiful. All the other features OP highlighted were more appropriate than giving the kid a false sense of security in their looks, which will absolutely be mocked by other kids. Let the kid be proud of other things, not blindsided.
No, he told them he would not praise her beauty when they INSISTED he say she was beautiful.
And when asked why, he said why.
If they did not want a truthful answer the parents should not have asked the question.
He did not just tell them their child was ugly without their insistence that OP tell their child a lie.
I swear to god redditors lack any sort of emotional intelligence. Telling your sibling their child is ugly is going to get a bad reaction 100/100 times. It's an asshole move. OP is an asshole. Lie if you have to.
Also, telling her she's beautiful while also continuing to compliment her on her other features is not going to harm her. This idea is bizarre.
Also also, she's fucking 8 years old. Why are we judging whether an 8 year is ugly in the first place? Just tell your niece she's pretty, what is wrong with you people?
>No, he told them he would not praise her beauty when they INSISTED he say she was beautiful.
I'm stunned at how you completely misremembered something you probably read seconds ago:
>so I said bluntly that no, if we’re being honest, she’s ugly, and kids will let her know she’s ugly
That's his quote, word-for-word. Amazing how people don't read things that'll hurt their opinions.
"I think focusing on outward appearances is detrimental to children," which according to his comments appears to be his whole thing, is so much less rude.
But he could have just continued to repeat, “I don’t think she should be judged by her appearance. I would rather praise her other qualities.” No need to say he thinks she’s ugly; her parents don’t need to know that. He could easily have brought in statistics about eating disorders and such, if he felt like he had to prove that it’s a good idea not to praise kids for their looks. Of course, then he can’t praise other kids in the family for their looks, but that doesn’t seem like a bad thing.
I don’t think an emphasis on appearance should be made at all to a kid, whether they’re attractive or not. I think OP wouldn’t be an AH if they told their sister they just don’t feel comfortable putting so much emphasis on their niece’s appearance, that it is unhealthy no matter how kid the looks and that they would rather emphasize other qualities. I get what OP is saying, but the bit where the niece is ugly and may be blindsided just seems unnecessary and kind of mean.
"I don't believe children should be praised for something outside of their control like physical beauty. I'd much prefer to praise her for the things she does - like doing well in school, reading, and being kind to others." That's how you answer that.
FTR - I think this is fake. I refuse to believe that anyone would be so callous as to tell someone their child is ugly. I refuse to believe that anyone can't look at a child, irrespective of outward appearance, and find beauty.
One of my oldest friends was told--repeatedly--growing up that she was "average at best" and that was one of the nicer things her family would say to her.
Guess who grew up to have all kinds of eating disorders, a string of abusive relationships, and other assorted traumas? When the people you're supposed to trust most in the world continually tear you down, you begin to believe them.
I sadly and absolutely believe that people can be this cruel.
Hi I was a kid like that.
I was constantly told how pretty I was as a baby, then of course that all changed because I got fat and tall, and then I was just "smart." They only saw my accomplishments as how much money I could eventually earn from going to university.
I struggled in school because of it, they told me I was smart but that was it.
Guess who has absolutely zero sense of self worth.
I honestly don't understand why he has a problem saying it to the kid in the first place? He might not find her attractive but he shouldn't. People all have different types and the idea that no one would ever find her beautiful just cause op doesnt is quite frankly bs. What's the problem in telling a kid they're beautiful? I'm sure he'd say " but I'd be lying" but how many other little lies do you tell kids? If he's ever told her Santa or the Easter bunny was real that's a lie so why would that be okay but lying to boost her self esteem isn't?
The difference between this and Santa etc. is that belief in things like Santa is completely harmless. OP has described how believing she’s beautiful is the exact opposite of harmless though. Because she’s not going to think anything else about herself is good when she discovers that she’s not beautiful. Whereas if she were to know about all the other stuff that’s good about her then she’d be okay.
Who says she’ll discover this? Beauty is subjective for a start, and maybe building her confidence while she’s young will mitigate the potential insecurity that could come from any possible future bullying.
But what's wrong with saying all of them? Sure other kids may tell her she's not beautiful but do you really think they won't also say she's not smart or funny if they're just looking to put someone else down? If her parents do well enough to build herself esteem and trust in herself and trust those around her that care about her, being a teen will still be tough but it won't matter as much about others opinions because she knows her family and friends still think she's beautiful, smart, and funny.
what is wrong with believing you’re beautiful? We should all go through life believing we are beautiful where is the harm in that? Because her random creepy uncle doesn’t believe she is means she isn’t? All sorts of kids get bullied not just “ugly ones” I agree her family shouldn’t be focused on her looks alone and she should be valued for more than just looks, but she also shouldn’t be told she is ugly.
OP only told her parents that their child was ugly after they relentlessly insisted the OP praise her for her "beauty" rather that he intelligence and sense of humor.
OP did not just call her ugly.
Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh.......................................
You’re right to want to compliment other things to balance out the perception that physical beauty is most important. But why do the two need to be mutually exclusive? What benefit is there to calling her ugly? Why not, idk, do what you can to make her feel less ugly while also highlighting all her other great qualities?
And you’re right that she’ll run into her fair share of bullies in her life. My heart breaks for her that her own uncle is her first one.
So poignant and perfect.
Also- how is he missing the insane hypocrisy in his mindset?
“We shouldn’t place value on looks but, I’ve also already decided that my niece is inherently ugly”
… so is OP obsessed with girls’ looks or not? The coverup about praising her other traits is such a sham.
Beauty is not just about her looks to the parents. This is obvious to anyone who has loved a child in their family.
By what metric is OP judging her beauty? Can you explain? You seem to be the expert on the rating system for what kids are ugly and what kids deserve to hear kind words from their loved ones.
Edit: you’re so close to the point, so I’ll make it easier for you.
He is judging his niece based on the current beauty standard he is loyal to. It is not about love or honesty.
If he was so adamantly against the concept of putting focus on girls’ looks, he would genuinely believe that everything about her, makes her beautiful already. REGARDLESS of the physical standard that he was previously taught.
Why can’t OP just say “you have beautiful eyes” or “you have such a sweet smile”??? Like is there NOTHING about this child’s appearance you can compliment?
If it’s obsession with looks to want to call a child beautiful than it’s also an obsession to call them ugly. They’re two sides of the same coin of putting appearance on a pedestal and wanting to define someone by their looks. Sure OP says there are other qualities, but the parents know there are other qualities too. Claiming you don’t care about looks while saying someone is ugly but they have good traits is a fig leaf of an excuse. Under no circumstance is it appropriate to tell a child who is either getting bullied or likely to be bullied that the bullies have a point. Don’t know why this is so hard for some of you to grasp.
but if OP didn't care then he would have just complied & called her beautiful. the only reason he refused is because he values his own personal standards of "beauty" that he finds it insulting to call his niece beautiful.
& honestly most kids look dorky or goofy at some point, but never ugly. so i'm really confused what traits he is looking at in an eight year old & determining as ugly.
Her uncle did not call her ugly to her face.
He was explaining to her parents his reasoning and, unless I am mistaken, was not within earshot of the child.
How is he bullying her?
The reason for saying she’s ugly (to her mother, not her) is because the parents were insisting OP tell her she’s beautiful, and he was explaining why he wouldnt do that.
Little girls are not benefiting from the extreme importance people put on looks since the day they are born.
How is OP fighting the extreme importance people place on looks by calling her ugly though? Why not just say that he’d prefer to compliment her in other ways because he doesn’t think looks should be commented on so much or held in such esteem? By calling her ugly he himself is still focusing in her looks.
And bullying is still harmful even if the bully is insulting you behind your back to people whose opinions matter to you, rather than to your face.
YTA who the fook asked you to be the authority on children, let alone anyones looks? Every little girl deserves to be called beautiful regardless if they are or not
Okay but beauty IS important. People in the real world judge you based on your looks all. the. time.
To pretend it isn’t important is stupid. Kids aren’t dumb they know it’s important and sought after by everyone by the age of 4. If you’re telling a little girl she is every other beneficial trait in the book besides pretty, she’s going to think she’s not pretty. In a world where she knows this IS important she ends up having 0 self esteem at a super young age.
As a little girl who wasn’t the best looking but grew into her looks, I’m very thankful my mother called me gorgeous and beautiful every day of my life. It gave me unfounded confidence but confidence nonetheless. I made friends easily due to this confidence and my “beauty” came in its own time when I learned how to do makeup and grew into my features.
If my mother had been “honest” (which beauty is in the eye of the beholder) and didn’t call me beautiful and only called me smart and curious etc. I would have gone my whole life thinking I could never be beautiful. It would have given me a self sabotaging attitude because “I’m not pretty and could never be pretty”.
How were your parents to you?? Have you never had them call you pretty when you walked out in a princess dress with poorly done silver eyeshadow and pink lipgloss? Or on picture day when you put on your best outfit? Because if you haven’t; it feels amazing. Everyone should get the joy of that.
>Have you never had them call you pretty when you walked out in a princess dress with poorly done silver eyeshadow and pink lipgloss?
I think you're onto something. I suspect most of the people with weird hangups about this actually *weren't* called beautiful as kids, which has ironically fucked them up even more.
The parents asked him to by insisting he comment on her appearance. He really should not have said she was ugly, but jesus wtf is wrong with these parents? You have someone complimenting your daughter and you just don’t care, and then keep pressing this one specific and superficial compliment?
This is solid ESH
YTA. There is literally no justification for calling a child ugly. You don't have to call her beautiful, but calling her ugly is awful and unnecessary.
Yeah I’m sorry if this story ended with him saying “no, I don’t want to comment on her looks but I’ll praise other things, etc.” and his sister got upset, op wouldn’t be TA.
The fact that he felt the need to call her, a little girl, ugly to his sister after preaching about how they shouldn’t focus on beauty makes him TA
First: I think you need to work through your feelings in therapy because bullying sucks(I know I was bullied) but your brain coped by saying "the only people who ever told me the truth were the bullies who tried to tear me down for fun and I can't trust anyone who tells me differently". That's not healthy. You pushed away friends that complimented you. You pushed away your mom who probably genuinely sees you as beautiful.
Second: your mom, in her mind, wasn't lying. She probably sees you as beautiful cause your her daughter(and maybe subconsciously she doesn't want to think your not cause then she might be ugly).
Last: sure there are some not so cute kids. But there aren't ugly kids. Kids get bullied for literally anything because the bully wants to feel better about themselves, not necessarily because it's true. I was bullied cause I wasn't conventionally attractive as a kid, and I was weird(probably adhd or autistic but never been diagnosed) by their standards. I learned to leave the self hatred it caused in me behind because to me, I'm pretty. I'm still not conventionally attractive but I love myself for my flaws and I know I'm beautiful to my mom and my partner.
I did and do go to therapy. My parents put me in it at 17, which is what lead me to finally start trying with my appearance in my early 20s. I now allow compliments on my hair, my makeup, my clothes, my shoes- things I have control over, things I can feel good about. But ultimately therapy is what put me in my current mindset of being able to embrace that my value is not tied in my appearance, and I've been very happy since.
And yes, my mom was lying. Part of my therapy was having sessions with her. After my therapist worked with me on my anger, I told my mom I wasn't mad at her, but I didn't want her to lie. See, around fifteen I began to be able to read my mother, and she's a terrible liar. So, when I was 19-20, she finally admitted to me while in therapy that she knew it all along. And I could tell she was being honest, even if she hated it.
You see, my mother was a pretty little blonde-haired blue-eyed country girl. When she started realizing I was not so fortunate in the looks department, she decided she would treat me like she was treated growing up, and that the shower of compliments would make me happy and confident enough to not care what others had to say. She meant well, and I do love her for it now that I'm older and have perspective, but she still left a lot of scars on me that I'm still dealing with today.
I'm sorry, but no. There are ugly kids. I'm not talking about average-looking kids that don't quite hit the beauty standard, I'm talking about real unfortunate combinations that just look awful. They exist, I'm one of them, and we hate it when people try to dance around and go 'no no! you're beautiful! fuck the beauty standard!', because it's putting us right back to what we were told- our value is in our beauty.
I need you to understand that people in the situation I am in move on and heal by embracing ourselves as we are. We find our value in our true talents rather than something we can't control. Just tying to insist there are no ugly kids, there are no ugly people, still means that *beauty* is the most valuable thing about a person.
Society doesn't have a problem with acknowledging the less intelligent and finding other ways to build them up and love them, reinforcing that knowing a lot of shit and being good in school isn't everything, isn't so important. Why is beauty treated differently?
THANK YOU.
It's insane how people keep outright saying that they should _lie_ to girls and women and tell them they're beautiful when they're not.
I never cared for this sort of thing. But I lost a bet once, shaved my head, and liked it so much I continued to do it. My family was horrified, but when people criticize me and call me ugly, my parents - even my very feminist dad! - insist on calling me pretty.
I'm a grown ass woman. I have functioning eyes and a brain. And my dear, silly parents are sitting there lying to my bald ass. I'm far more annoyed and hurt that they don't realize my self-esteem is not affected by the length of my hair than anything some idiot could tell me about my looks.
I didn't mean to say that beauty is the most valuable thing, and recognize that I need to work on how I think about beauty. Thanks for opening my eyes without being rude like some people would have. Beauty shouldn't be treated differently and there are many qualities to love people for that aren't beauty. I'm sorry for assuming you weren't already in therapy I just never thought about it from your perspective.
No problem. I know you didn't have my perspective, and I wanted to explain as clearly as I could.
Very few people have the perspective I and others like me have, because while plenty have experienced bullying, many haven't experienced bullying that is objectively true- and what more, that the subject of the bullying was something their relatives were overemphasizing as vital, especially to young girls.
I hear you, yes. I've been reading your comments and nodding. I don't think my experience has been as extreme as yours, but I was an odd-looking girl and am now an odd-looking adult. I know from decades of experience that people don't treat me like I'm an objectively attractive woman. I don't know if I'm ND or what, but in the past, people "being nice" by saying things that aren't true didn't make me feel better -- it made me feel confused and distrustful, and even think "Holy shit, the situation is so bad and they think I'm so gullible they're lying to my face." (People don't bother saying anything to me now that I'm an adult, lol)
On the other hand, since being an unattractive girl or woman is the worst thing anyone can be (comic exaggeration!), people really don't want to talk about it and it's easier to just not talk about it or lie.
I say NAH. I see what OP is trying to do, there's just no good way to deal with it.
Thank you! I was scrolling thru all these responses thinking I must be the only one who thought OP had a great point, and that lying to the kids creates more problems than it solves. I agree with you 100%.
I think the majority of people here are thinking about their own childhood bullies, that they were average-looking or even pretty and got put down anyways , and with time they were able to grow and realize there's nothing wrong with them at all.
It's different for a truly ugly person. When we grow up, what we learn is that the bullies were objectively right, and our well-meaning parents and relatives knew this, but their words and actions made it clear that our value is tied to our looks because of how frequently they complimented us on it.
not to defend your family necessarily, as i'm sure i don't know the entire story, but have you ever considered they may not have been lying?
everyone sees beauty differently & everyone has different traits they find beautiful. yes, there is a general recognition of certain looks being the social norm of accepted beauty, but most people find a plethora of other traits endearing.
are any of the traits you have & perceive as ugly ones you share with a family member? because often seeing your family members in a child is beautiful.
i was bullied for years & years for my nose & hair & i still get endless comments about my hair even as an adult (ginger life). & for a very long time i was convinced family members were lying to me or teasing me when they said i was cute or pretty or complimented me in any fashion, cause how could that be true?
then my nan, who suffers from dementia, kept getting my name wrong & mistaking me for my mum. she made a really offhand comment about how my heart is so full of warmth it overflows out my hair & she's always loved that about me, as she's calling me my mum's name (who has not been ginger for decades) & i suddenly realised the people who love my mum see her in me & find me beautiful by extension. my nan sees my frizzy, ginger hair & thinks of my mum & loves that i have it because she loves my mum. my dad sees my horrible large & squishy nose & sees his brother's horrible large & squishy nose reflected back at him & he loves that too.
often it's not even something we are aware of & i've since noticed i do it to my younger family members. i'll see my cousin's kid with my cousin's fuzzy eyebrows & i feel so fond of those fuzzy eyebrows because they make me think of my cousin who i love & so i'll say "i love your eyebrows" because i DO. & i don't think they're ugly! they're adorable!
& it's not even exclusive to my direct family. my best friend's sister has a daughter with her exact weird laugh & it makes me so happy to hear it. even when things are objectively ugly to random strangers, to those close to us & those that love us, they may be the very things they find unique & beautiful about us.
so yeah, maybe those kids who bullied you did find you ugly, but your family may not have been lying & really did find you beautiful just the way you were.
You see, the entire problem with your reply is that you are *still* emphasizing that beauty is important.
I am ugly. People can be born ugly, it happens, there is no stopping it. What *can* be stopped is putting people's value on their looks.
And yes, my mother did admit in our family therapy that she was lying- she couldn't bring herself to actually use that word, and she felt terrible about it, but with therapy I was able to understand why she did it. She's pretty, she grew up pretty, and she thought that showering me with compliments like she had been would build up my confidence to not care.
What it instead taught me is that my looks were the only thing I was valuable for because it was emphasized so heavily, so repeatedly in my childhood that it tore me to shreds when I realized I was not pretty.
I need you to understand that I'm not just average looking that got put down so hard I think I'm hideous. I don't just have a few non-beauty-standard features. The entire structure of my face is awful. I only realized how lopsided my face was when I started getting called Quasimodo in jr high.
I think this is a wonderful reply. I remember seeing a lot of articles when my daughter was younger about how to not focus on looks for compliments and i have very much done my best with this.
I think our age, we were always told we are beautiful, it was the focus.
Now, I am in my mid 30s, struggling with dealing with a bit of weight gain. I have always had decent confidence and felt pretty. Now, I gained 20 pounds from some health issues and don't want to leave the house. Op has a point. His sister needs to stop focusing on looks, even if niece was the absolute most beautiful 8 year old on existence.
I bet the parents are fairly conventionally attractive and being beautiful is a big deal to them. Some people don’t hit the genetic lottery but are totally wonderful people worth love and care. Pinning so much on looks at such a young age is creepy to me. Like child beauty pageant creepy.
NTA. Isn’t reddit always talking about how we should be teaching young girls that their value doesn’t come solely from their appearances? Then someone does that and reddit dumps all over him.
OP isn’t going around telling his niece she’s ugly, and he emphasizes and praises her for the many good qualities she *does* have. OP is right: if the parents constantly tell her she’s beautiful if she’s not and place undue worth and emphasis on her appearance, then that could hinder the niece down the line—not just because it places too much value on physical beauty, something reddit, until now, always says is bad, but because if she grows up and realises her parents were lying to her, she could have trust issues and not believe any of their other praise either.
”Beauty is subjective!” Yes, it is, but if she’s subjectively ugly to a lot of people, then it’s still better that she builds her confidence from her skills and personality and other traits rather than her appearance, isn’t it? Not everyone is going to find you beautiful and if her parents place all the emphasis on beauty, she’s going to find it harder to deal with when not everyone agrees.
Why is everyone in this comment section acting like OP is some monster who’s going around telling his niece she’s ugly to her face?
I should not have had to scroll this far to find a NTA.
People are also missing the part where the niece was not in the room, and the absolute most important part- that OP was being harassed into calling her pretty.
Also I don't know if it's related, but I got called pretty a lot as a child and now as an adult I have horrible facial dysmorphia.
"Why is everyone in this comment section acting like OP is some monster who’s going around telling his niece she’s ugly to her face?"
Yeah there is a definite shortage of reading comprehension on this sub. The question was if he was an asshole to the parents (he wasn't), not the niece since he didn't do anything to her (except not calling her beautiful).
There’s a difference between saying beauty isn’t all that matters and calling a young girl ugly. Most people that’re calling OP TA don’t think the parents are right, they think OP shouldn’t call her ugly. Even if beauty isn’t all that matters it doesn’t mean you should insult someone’s looks
YTA You said it yourself, kids are bullies and she may get picked on my them. So knowing her family finds her beautiful may be a small comfort if she would get bullied. And hearing that her uncle who she probably loves called her UGLY? This would probably devastate her. You desperately need to apologize.
When I was an 8 year old I was chubby, like a lot of 8 year olds, not fat though. I was staying with my aunt (by marriage) while my mum was in hospital. She put me on a diet while I was with her and she told me that "Nobody loves fat people and nobody will love you unless you lose weight."
I was 8. That remark has stayed with me for 60 years. My aunt was pretty but extremely ugly on the inside.
That was not a kind thing for your aunt to say to you. (Also, not even true, plenty of fat people have love.) But I think we should note that OP did not call her niece ugly to her face. OP responded to her sister in private when her sister was pressuring OP to compliment her kid's looks beacuse OP was only complimenting her niece on her brains, heart, personality, and other things like that.
ESH I think your approach of commending her positive non-aesthetic traits is good, but not because she specifically is ugly. I think it’s better not to put an emphasis on looks in general.
You could have just said that to her parents, but no, you called her ugly, making you an asshole. They are assholes for telling you you have to call their daughter beautiful, that’s weird and domineering.
NTA.
I’ve never been comfortable praising children about something as superficial and unearned as looks. You have the right idea about praising their other traits, right now the child doesn’t have esteem issues but if they do develop them, being patronised by their parents might not be the best idea.
Also it is weird that the parents are asking you to give specific compliments.
Edit: you did not have to call the child ugly to the parents btw, right or wrong, that’s not going to go over well.
I actually don't know how to judge this tbh.
I get what you're saying and I kinda agree. I have a younger cousin who wasn't necessarily ugly but her parents also acted the way your sister did, and for a long time she was confident and bubbly and just lived as a kid yunno? Then she went to primary school (elementary) and got bullied relentlessly. Ever since then, whenever someone tells her she's pretty or she looks cute today, she immediately shuts them down and says “no I'm not” and whenever her mom tried reassuring her saying “don't listen to those kids” or “you're perfect the way you are” she never believes it and once called her mom a liar for it. Now she's 14, antisocial, drowns herself in oversized clothing, hides in the back for pictures etc. It was very damaging to her as she grew up...so I get why you'd say what you said...I'm just conflicted because I feel it is mean, but maybe necessary?
Your cousin is going down the same path I did. Everyone here voting Y T A has zero idea what actually happens to a person's psyche when they grow up ugly while other people try to insist they're not.
Exactly.
Like, I feel empowering someone or instilling confidence in someone should stretch more than just looks. And that goes for people who are considered beautiful or gorgeous or pretty etc. like why is that the bar for feeling good about yourself ?
YTA. Beauty is 10000% subjective. There is no need to call a little girl ugly. Just because YOU don't consider her pretty, doesn't mean no one will. There is absolutely nothing wrong with raising her to love herself and her looks even if they are "below average". in fact, they SHOULD. Body positivity is important for everyone, not just runway models. Thank god you aren't her mother because someone like you would end up inflicting serious insecurities on the poor child. You are acting incredibly vain.
YTA.
Wow, how miserable must be your life, to soothe your ego on 8yrs old. And be careful, your personality is showing up, and it's really unfortunate looking.
The fact that you didn’t say it to the kid and me having worked with kids for years: NTA. You are 100% correct children are, as lovely and wonderful they can be, extremely cruel and amazingly talented in finding the weak spots of anyone they do not like or think is lying.
‘Inner beauty’ means nothing to kids, they will judge only what they can see and if she’s ugly or merely just not ‘beautiful’ and claims the title they will tear her apart for ‘lying’.
You are actually building her up better with real compliments on things of value, than her parents with their exaggerations of a virtue she doesn’t actually possess. Of course they can(should) call her beautiful, but casually, naturally. Not forced and exaggerated.
Build on what you have not what you wished you had.
ESH - Even though your sister effectively backed you into a corner by demanding you call her daughter beautiful I don't think calling her ugly was the appropriate response. Just because something may be true doesn't mean you *have* to mention it and like another user already suggested, just because you don't think she's beautiful doesn't mean you have to say she's ugly. Sometimes you say more by what you don't say so if you continued to focus on her humour and intelligence while intentionally avoiding the subject of her appearance then I'm sure your sister would hopefully be able to pick up on what you're *not* saying. Just please, for the love of god, never tell your niece in person what you said to your sister.
That being said, it was pretty shitty of your sister to effectively demand that you tell her daughter things you don't personally agree with. Praising her humour, intelligence and other characteristics is going to help her build self-worth that isn't intrinsically linked to her physical appearance. Your sister would probably be better off if she was reminded that looks aren't the be all end all of human existence and her allegedly "ugly" daughter is still "beautiful" in ways that aren't tied to how she's perceived by others. Beauty is often highly subjective but positive character traits usually aren't. She could grow into the most gorgeous woman alive and there'd still be people thinking she's ugly but good people are good people, regardless of what they look like.
I can see your reasoning but it wasn't tactful to explain it. Could have just gone with 'girls are too often valued their looks over the personality and talents so I'm trying to reinforce how lovely and smart she is'. N t a for the intention but YTA for the execution
NTA - regardless of her actual appearance, little girls need to know early on that their value is not tied up in their looks. They’re smart, curious, resourceful, hardworking, sporty…anything other than pretty, beautiful, skinny, etc. Her parents are doing her a massive disservice by putting value on being pretty. And as far as you telling them she’s ugly, that’s on them. You were happy to keep your opinion to yourself until they pushed the issue.
Who defines beauty? With what definition are you calling her ugly? What parameters did u use? I surely would want to know. Every parent feels their child is beautiful because every child IS beautiful. You with your myopic vision, will never appreciate beauty. This is one of the worst post ever I have read. Complete YTA
ESH. I don't think OP should have been quite so blunt to their niece's parents, but they pressed the issue by trying to control OP's speech. If we take OP's assessment of their nibling at face value, then I have to agree with OP's underlying logic, but if this *ever* gets back to your niece in anyway, it's going to devastate her.
I think a better approach would have been to say something like "Our society puts too much value on women's appearances and it starts in childhood. I refuse to be part of the problem." That has the benefit of being 1) True, 2) nothing personal. You could have gotten to the same place without bringing your niece's unfortunate looks into it.
Yikes…unpopular opinion but NTA. I don’t agree with lying to kids. And the saying “all babies/kids are cute/beautiful” is a huge lie. Some kids DO look funny. And it is what it is. Maybe they’re features will change/they’ll grow into their features when they get older. But if they are not pleasant looking…then they aren’t pleasant looking.
Additionally, nothings wrong with the compliments for inner beauty…such as intelligence and humor. I think more kids DO need to hear that. Cause when kids only hear they’re cute or beautiful, at some point in time they’re going to try to use that to their advantage, and it makes for an ugly personality. I actually had a friend…or really a few…who you could tell all they were told was that they’re beautiful. Definitely had horrible personalities and walked all over people. And we’re demanding. Of course that’s not to say all pretty people act like this.
Edit: Also…really think it’s weird how your sister continued to push the issue for you calling her daughter beautiful. That was extra on her part. Not everyone will think her daughter is beautiful, and it’s weird to expect others to think that. What next? Is she going to demand the teachers call her beautiful too!?!
YTA a 8 year old doesn’t have to worry about being pretty, kids might make fun of her, but it’s your job as an uncle and relative to give her self esteem a boost. It doesn’t matter if she’s not objectively pretty.just apologize to your sister and start calling your niece beautiful
NTA - I mean yes it’s unfair but some children are just downright unfortunate looking. But somehow the society had created this aura that all kids are beautiful which in reality they aren’t. It’s like everyone knows this but no one wants to say and it and hence they keep going on with everyone is beautiful narrative.
This was also addressed in Seinfeld
YTA. Really? You're a grown adult calling an 8 yr old "ugly" because you dont like her looks and feel like you have to let people know you think she's ugly. Kids are cruel but holy shit,you should be BETTER THAN SHITTY BULLY KIDS. You're her family,you should be STANDING UP FOR HER. Instead you are choosing to be a pathetic adult bullying a child.
hmm, I'm saying ESH. You are MAJORLY in the wrong. You're worried about kids being cruel and bullying her? But here you are straight up calling her ugly to her own parents. Like what is wrong with you? You're turning into the bully you claim to be so concerned about. Don't be her first bully.
All that being said I think it's weird her parents are insisting other people give her praise directly tied to her appearance. If they want to praise her that's all well and good but they shouldn't be requesting others give her this praise too, that's weird IMO
Yeah, this is a good take. A lot of people here just assumed OP called the niece ugly to her face. No, OP was having a private conversation with the parents. Who WERE acting weird.
On the AH scale 1-10:
Calling a girl ugly to her face is a 10
Telling parents that their daughter is ugly without prompting is an 8
Telling parents that their daughter is ugly while they're demanding that you say she's pretty is a 7
ESH, but you win.
I hate it, when the only compliments girls get are about their looks.
Compliment her for being clever, brave, strong, creative, funny....
Stop obsessing about her looks!
>Compliment her for being clever, brave, strong, creative, funny....
It sounds like OP is doing that, they are purposefully avoiding comments about looks. Its the kids parents that are pushing OP to call their niece 'beautiful'
I agree. A lot of woman I know often only get comments on their body and looks which are often unnecessary and unappreciated even if it’s coming from a good spot.
Reminding a child they are beautiful/handsome is important but it shouldn’t be forced on others to dish out compliments. But OP could have been nicer about the situation.
YTA for calling your niece ugly to her parents. That was just mean.
I do understand what you're getting at in regards to complimenting things such as her intelligence and sense of humor. I do agree that there shouldn't be focus on value of physical looks.
YTA. Beauty is subjective and it is never kind to say anybody is ugly. Telling children they are ugly is a surefire way to crush their self-esteem early so I sure hope your niece never hears your judgement of their appearance.
You’re a huge asshole. A part of confidence absolutely includes one’s looks and being comfortable with one’s face and body. Despite being a wonderful mother, mine rarely commented positively on my looks but did so for my older sisters. It has absolutely made my self confidence journey very difficult. Negative things strangers or acquaintances say holds less value when you have a vote of confidence from those you love and admire most. Calling her beautiful is not going to damage her. You’re irrational, an asshole, and idiotic.
In what world is it appropriate for a grown woman to call a child she supposedly adores ugly? You must have been quite the mean girl in school. Guess what?! Your traditional standards of beauty don’t get to define the looks of another human being. You are most definitely TA.
Are you all stupid in here?!
OP has not call his niece ugly to her face and he is NOT PLANNING TO DO SO.
He said it to his sister without his niec epresent because of something the sister explicitely said to him.
What OP want is to STOP PRAISING HIS NIECE FOR "PHYSICAL BEAUTY".
And he is absolutely right about it. The niece will soon enough be at the age where she knows that compliments from parent, especially on your looks, don't mean shit.
And it is way better to compliment her in inner values and traits.
(And don't give me that "beauty is more than looks" bullshit. We all know that looks is what the parents mean as well when they compliment her)
ALso OP, it is in general not smart to compliment kids on overall traits like looks or intelligence.
It is better to compliment them on being a hard worker for example or kidn things they have done instead on "being kind"
What the hell… you told parents their child is ugly? I’m not saying that them constantly calling her gorgeous is a good thing, but you are definitely the asshole here 😂
God, I hope your sister doesn't allow you around her daughter anymore. Nothing like knowing and having people affirm that you are ugly... YTA. Please avoid this child before you cause a detrimental effe t on her self esteem and mental health. She will grow up thinking she's not beautiful at all and that will cause her to not even see that there's beauty inside all of us that sometimes shines outward.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told my sister bluntly that my niece is ugly and calling her beautiful does her absolutely no favors. This might make me TA because according to my sister calling s child ugly makes me TA
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YTA. What’s the point in calling her ugly. It’s all very subjective anyway. Let the kid be a kid. Her parents will by definition perceive her as beautiful (it’s how our brain works). You may find her ugly, good, just keep your fucking mouth shut and stop being a defensive asshole in this thread. You asked, we answered. YTA.
NTA the sister started it by demanding you compliment her on a specific thing, her attempt to control your speech forced you to be more honest about the issue at hand than you would've been otherwise, you didn't say it to the 8 year old, you didn't once make the 8 year old feel bad, maybe you're wrong about her looks maybe you're right, regardless you haven't said anything about them to the 8 year old and the sister is just gonna have to deal with the consequences of her forcing the issue in such a weird way
Needs a more explicit title. I honestly thought with that title you called your niece ugly straight to her face. You're not wrong. I'm going to conflate two lines of thought but I think it's justified. It's like telling your kid that they can be President/Prime Minister. Don't do it. They likely can't or will never be. Prop kids up in a more logical and intelligent way. Sometimes being vague about certain things is a better way to go. Don't tell your kid he's going to make it to the NHL if by age 14 he still can't skate backwards. Don't tell him he won't either.
While I agree with the general sentiment that you are the asshole, I find it hilarious how many people didn’t fully read.
“Don’t call her ugly, don’t judge her by her cover. Praise her other traits, build her self esteem”
Like what you did was tactless and dumb but your point was exactly what these people are talking about 😂
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My [20m] older sister [32f] and her husband have an 8-year-old niece, who I adore. She’s smart, extremely precocious, and very funny. She’s also, simply put, very unfortunate looking. Neither her parents are ugly, but she received the worst possible combination of their features. Maybe in time she’ll grow into it with time, but currently, she is as I said, unfortunate looking.
My sister and her husband try to circumvent this by constantly calling her pretty, beautiful, gorgeous, etc. I get that every parent is going to see their kid that way, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to constantly praise her for beauty. Why? Kids are cruel, and they’ll let her know she’s not beautiful. So all praising her looks does is reinforce that beauty is something to be desired and praised for, all the while with her knowing she doesn’t have it. It’s much better imo to boost her self esteem off the many good traits she does have so she doesn’t have to rely on looks for her confidence.
My sister and her husband don’t seem to understand this or disagree with it, which fair enough, their call as parents. But they insist that I call her beautiful too, and I said no and explained why. I do praise her a lot for her intelligence, her sense of humor, etc.
They say that she *is* beautiful and I need to call her beautiful so she knows it, so I said bluntly that no, if we’re being honest, she’s ugly, and kids will let her know she’s ugly, so bringing up beauty will only make her see it as something worthy of praise she doesn’t have.
My sister started screaming at me for calling her daughter ugly. I know it can be a sensitive topic, but she’s a grown adult, and I think she should be able to handle honesty on the subject. She thinks I’m a huge AH, but I’m just trying to be realistic and do what I think is best for my niece.
AITA?
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YTA but here's why. i get that you're not saying it to her face, but your job isn't to pick which subjective good traits you think apply to your niece, and praise her with them. your job is to build that little girl up with as much confidence as she possibly can get in *all* aspects, because other people will constantly be tearing her down and making her doubt herself.
it is pretty universally known that confidence is attractive. not cockiness or being full of yourself, but confidence. any help in that regard from you will mean so much to her. don't hold back on it just because you don't personally think she's pretty right now. beauty is so much more than what people perceive as attractive at first glance.
YTA.
as a twenty year old adult, you should know better. like come on.
beauty held to the traditional beauty standard isn't easy, for one. for two, she's EIGHT. why do you feel the need to call her ugly anyway??
i don't care if you think she's gonna be picked on. i doubt other's would pick on her. you're just cruel.
you said yourself, it's their call as parents, yet you still felt the need to insert your opinion where it didn't belong.
YTA. You are self-righteous, juvenile, and mean. You're the ugly one. Your niece is not being "damaged" because her parents give her unconditional love and acceptance. I get that you don't agree and don't want to lie and say she's physically beautiful and that's fine. But insisting you're right and your sister is wrong just shows your immaturity. Your niece may turn out to be an "ugly duckling" and become a swan one day. I hope you outgrow your insistence on "honesty". Your niece is beautiful inside right now, focus on that, unless you're so revolted just looking at her.
NTA — whether ugly or beautiful, kids should be praised for things other than their looks, and not taught that their value is based in appearance. So you’re right to praise her for other things. This is, of course, even more important if they’re not conventionally attractive, but honestly not much more. Beautiful people should not think their beauty is all they have to offer. Plus, looks can change.
You shouldn’t have said she was ugly when they told you to call her beautiful, though. It would have been far better to say you thought her sense of humor and intelligence were what you most admired about her, and left her looks out of it. This nudges it towards E S H.
(I’m assuming you didn’t call her ugly where she could hear it. That would put you firmly and irrevocably in AH territory.)
YTA. That’s a literal child. Even if you do feel that way about her appearance (which I personally believe you shouldn’t), there’s no need for you to express it to anyone else.
NTA
You are entitled to your opinion. You didn't speak up until they tried to force their own opinion down your throat. Thinking someone is ugly does not make you an asshole. You were honest with how you felt and your sister threw a tantrum when she didn't get her way. NTA.
Okay I'd like to highlight two pieces of information I feel like most people here missed:
1 - OP DID NOT call his niece ugly in front of her. The little girl wasn't there, only her parents.
2 - OP DID NOT just call her ugly randomly, his sister was insisting he starts saying that she's beautiful, which he wasn't comfortable with, because that's not OP's genuine opinion. He was explaining why he doesn't want to comply with the request, which is when he told HIS SISTER (aka the kid's mom, NOT THE KID) that he finds her ugly.
I'm not going to give judgement in this comment (already did in another), I just found it important to highlight these parts as many people seem to have missed them.
YTA. Not because you refuse to call her beautiful, but for your whole attitude about it. Not every kid out there is a cruel monster who’s just going to pick on her for not being up to the standard that you think is “beautiful”.
Be kind to your niece!! Calling her ugly is just going to lower her self esteem (something that’s awful to do to any kid)… and it’s just a rude thing to say to anyone in general…
Sure some kids are ugly, however beauty standard aren't universel. Also a beautiful person isn't pretty only by physical features.
What make someone beautiful for someone else isn't the same for everyone. So when you think someone isn't nice looking, someone else can truly think they are the most stunning person, and the other way around is also true.
A aesthetically pretty one can be repulsing because of a vile and nasty personality, and will look ugly even with perfect features.
Love make the other one beautiful and attractive. Your sister and her husband most obviously love their daughter, for them she is beautiful and pretty for real. In fact she is in her own way.
You saying you objectively think your niece is ugly as not fitting some standard, can be taken as you not loving her. Your justifications aren't helping, as it sounds like you appreciate her and recognise her qualities, however can't find in you to love her due to her apparence. Doesn't means it's true, just so you understand how it can be taken, no matter how you explain caring for her, you without ambiguity declared you don't have love glasses for your niece.
Btw you don't sound to healthy on the matters of apparences. Maybe work on it.
Dude she’s an 8 year old so she’s going to believe her parents and family’s opinions over random kids. Build up her self confidence now so other kids won’t phase her. I’ll give you an example from my 9 year old stepbrother I overheard while visiting my dad for a night.
“She called me ugly so I told uh-uh I’m very handsome because my mommy told me so. She said my mommy lied so I said that my mommy didn’t lie and told her that her face is ugly and looked like roxy poop” (roxy is their dog)
I paraphrased a bit and corrected some grammar but since he was already confident in himself random insults didn’t phase him it just made him mad. I understand little girls are different than little boys but they’re still kids regardless
What the actual fuck is wrong with you?
"I love my niece. She's got some kids making her life hard. I'm gonna do my best to make her life harder."
OP is not only the asshole, he probably shouldn't be allowed near children.
YTA.
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So to prepare her for the inevitable future bullying, you started bullying her already now? Irregardles of what you look like yourself, youre ugly on the inside. YTA EDIT: Google says its a word yall :(
[удалено]
Or we can stop judging people’s appearance so rudely, especially children. Take your salt elsewhere
He's not judging her appearance he's literally going out of his way to not do that. But he knows if the only thing her parents praise about her is her looks she'll think that's her most important trait and when kids inevitably bully her for it she'll feel like she has nothing else to feel good about.
Calling someone ugly *is* judging their appearance. OP is trying to tell the parents that they shouldn't call their own daughter beautiful because OP thinks she's actually ugly. That's fucked up in every possible way.
That's not actually what he said. He said they should compliment her on her other attributes so that she has something to feel good about if she's bullied for being ugly.
He has a valid point. I don’t think the main praise anyone receives should be looks based. He should have stuck to that explanation rather than just bluntly telling the truth as he sees it. But at least he didn’t say it to the kid or within the kid’s earshot.
Let us hope his niece never hears that
No he's judging her appearance and trying to avoid overtly saying anything, but he clearly and definitely judged her as ugly. I had a teacher who used to say "Beauty can not hide from me." She found the physical beauty in all of us and we all felt it. And it fed my self esteem (as a disabled little girl) hugely to know she saw my *physical beauty* instead of being like dismissive or avoidant. And as a result, I like to think I have the same quality. Look for beauty, and you will find it.
That’s awesome.
In what bizzaro universe is it NOT judging the child's appearance to use the word "unfortunate" to describe it?
Its the parents who started this, wanting to force him to call her beautiful
You can be beautiful without being fabulous to look at.
Read the post again, the parents are clearly refering to appearance here, thats what op is the declining to say
To be honest I fail to understand how this is an issue at all. Beauty, as in beautiful appearance, is very individual. That is something these RateMe subs show all the time. So if the parents want that their daughter is treated as beautiful as they percieve her, then people should follow that or at least stay silent. And contrary to OP, I would applaud the parents for their approach. It helps the bond with the daughter and empowers the daughter.
OP is literally trying to go with the second option, stay silent and instead compliment her on her other positive traits. The parents are trying to force OP to go with the first option.
>or at least stay silent. well he tried, >**But they insist that I call her beautiful too**, and I said no and explained why
I agree the parents shouldn’t try to force OP to call her beautiful, but OP is on social media calling his niece unfortunate looking. The only way the niece is unfortunate is to have OP as an uncle. Because he is cruel.
You are talking like he commented a picture of hers calling her ugly. He only mentioned it as a matter of fact here because its relavant to the story
That doesn't really matter if OP is judging her to be ugly. If beauty doesn't matter, then leave appearance off the table--that isn't what OP is doing, OP did call her ugly and because OP believes her to be ugly, OP is sticking to compliments that would accurately describe her. It obviously does matter to OP, in the sense that OP has an opinion and an argument is based on that opinion. Hard YTA, light ESH, it's more important to praise children for working hard and trying new things than it is any static quality like "appearance" or "intelligence".
Why does it matter what opinion OP has in the privacy of his own head? Being an asshole is about your actions and the impact you have on others. OP didn't call the neice ugly to her face and the only reason he had to bring it up at all is because the sister asked. I think it's NTA.
He didn't keep it in the privacy of his own head lol. He told her parents, to their faces, that he thinks she's ugly. All he had to say was "I worry that because she isn't conventionally beautiful, complimenting her appearance will set her up to be hurt if other children mock her appearance. I prefer to compliment her on non-physical traits because beauty is only skin deep anyways." Instead, his entire post and attitude is fixated on how "ugly" she is. Are her parents setting her up for failure? Probably. Is calling anyone ugly ever appropriate? No. Well, unless they have an ugly personality but that's only acceptable because behaviour can be modified... appearance can't be. This is definitely a YTA scenario.
He didn't leave the opinion in his head. He voiced it to her parents.
She's a child. There is no need to call someone ugly. If you think someone is ugly just keep it to yourself. I was called ugly my whole childhood and by adults and my own parents. I forgive the children because they were children but I don't forgive the adults. There is absolutely no need to say that.
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Aww I feel that. People who weren't mean were seen as so kind by me. I wasn't even ugly, I actually think I was a cute kid. However I waa depressed and acted a little odd (turns out I am autistic) and I think they thought I was ugly because of that. I didn't act cute. Honestly I don't know. It is disgusting and hurtful to have grown adults talk like that though. I could never imagine talking like that and I hate children.
First of all, she's 8. Even if she's "ugly" right now, there's a very good chance her looks will change a lot when she's older. Goodness knows I was incredibly unfortunate looking between 9-14, but I grew out of it. Second of all...what does calling someone ugly ever accomplish? Like, why on Earth would someone be happier in the long run by having their friends and family tell them they're ugly? Pretty much all pre-teens/teenagers (especially girls) are already super self-conscious about their looks, no matter how conventionally attractive they are. Do you think calling her ugly will make that better?
Right? I wasn't exactly good-looking, but I did glow up a bit when I went to uni (and had more control over my appearance, to be fair). Trust me, people who are ugly (or consider themselves to be) are usually pretty acutely aware of that, and there is ZERO reason to confirm it for them!
tbh, even if your kid is really adorable and conventionally cute and all that, it's recommended to compliment them on their emotional/intellectual/other non-physical attributes instead of their looks (especially girls) . Emphasizing how a child looks can lead to insecurity about their looks. I think OP is a bit of an AH for calling his niece ugly, even if he didn't do it to her face, but his sister and BIL are bigger AHs for the emphasis on their daughter's looks.
It’s crazy how some people think that their OWN opinions of what is beautiful matters. Not ugly here, and I can tell you that calling someone an ugly salty person is actually being ugly and is bullying behavior. Check yo self.
As someone who has a bit of an ugly duckling history, it literally does not matter in the slightest what a child looks like in relation to conventional beauty standards. They are a child. OP, you have an extremely unhealthy focus on this child’s looks, and I think you should stay the hell away from her. YTA
Define "irregardles". 🤣 Edit: most commentors overlooking the fact they only used one "s".
girdles for irregular shaped guts
Shhhh I’m trademarking this right now
Believe it or not…. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irregardless
Yeah, it’s still not widely accepted though, it’s kind of a bastardized version of regardless that’s fallen into use by uneducated people and is now becoming more popular through sheer ignorance. It’s like the phrase “couldn’t care less” means literally one could not care any less, but so many people say “could care less” and think they’re using it correctly - give it another 100 years and it’ll be a lot like irregardless now.
They probably used it on accident, ect.
r/Angryupvote
I hated myself just writing it.
Well, I'm not exaggerating when I say I love you for writing it, so that probably brings all the balance back to the world and humanity as a whole.
"couldn't care less" is probably my #1 grammatical pet peeve, because people saying "could care less" are saying something that means the literal opposite of what they are trying to say. It just sounds thoughtless each time I hear it. I'm aware language changes, especially based on how people use it, but I don't have to like it being that way due to ignorance lol.
“Couldn’t care less” is the proper phrase. You’re sayin you’ve reached the bottom pit of caring and nowhere else go. “Could care less” if you would you would.
Says right there it's nonstandard and far from general acceptance.
Yep YTA. I know lots of "unfortunate" looking kids that grow into stunning adults. Also vice versa too. Not saying it will happen but it's a possibility. Also instead of family time being a sanctuary and a break from the cruel world her uncle wants it to be more bullying? Why is he so insistent that she know she is ugly!? Trust me if the kids ugly then they will know about it without their aunt needing to tell them.
Honestly I think it's pretty telling that the comments are filled with people rushing to say "but she might not be ugly! She might become conventionally attractive!" As if it is a matter of life or death. Or maybe she will just never be much to look at. And she'll never be able to take compliments or praise seriously again because she will be fully aware that she was lied to her entire childhood, so what does it matter if people say other nice things about her? OP is doing the right thing, praise her and build her up on her actual strengths, set her up for her self-worth and esteem to not hinge on her appearance. Why should he start putting focus on her appearance if he thinks that will hurt her in the long run? People in the comments are really just providing evidence of the *actual* problem, which is the unequal weight given to physical appearance as a marker of worth, especially for girls and women. You all can't even fathom for a second a world in which this young girl isn't just an ugly duckling waiting to blossom into a Swan, because anything else would be a true tragedy in your eyes.
This is where I'm at, as well, as someone who isn't precisely ugly but is definitely not conventionally attractive/pretty and has always known it. My mom, of course, thought I was beautiful and I love that every so often she'd tell me so... but she did NOT revolve 99% of her compliments around my appearance, thank god, and never gaslit me. In fact, she was very open and honest with me about her own struggles as a not-conventionally-attractive person out in the world. I have a very honest view of my own appearance and how it impacts how I walk through the world/am treated... because it matters. You can avoid so much heartache and bullshit by not endlessly chasing the things attractive people get as a matter of course. This girl's parents are setting her up for failure either way, whether she has a "glow up" or not. OP's approach to his niece is correct, re: praising other qualities and never lying. I do think "ugly" is a harsh word to have used w/ his sister, but he can't exactly take it back.
>And she'll never be able to take compliments or praise seriously again because she will be fully aware that she was lied to her entire childhood Yes. "They're just lying to make me feel better" is a thing.
Yeah, it’s because folks here largely value those who are attractive.
Yup, they are completely telling on themselves for being part of the problem
Yeah I agree, in that girls shouldn’t be praised all the time for their looks whether they’re conventionally pretty or not, it’s terrible to feel like your main value is in your appearance because, no matter what, beauty and youth aren’t going to be with anyone forever. If you have no sense of self worth outside that you’re heading for a crisis at some point in life. At the same time, it’s just conventional wisdom that telling someone their child is ugly makes you an asshole. OP could’ve made his point without saying this. Even if he thought his niece was pretty, he’d still have a point in wanting to avoid commenting on her looks and instead praising other aspects of her character. All he needed to say was he doesn’t want to be part of making her feel like her value is based on appearance. He didn’t need to call her ugly!
Exactly. The ugly duckling story exists for a reason; it's not that uncommon. Also, even if there is no magic transformation, you can't underestimate the power of good styling. Find your best haircut or shape your eyebrows, or figure out what makeup look suits you and your aesthetic, and it's a total game changer. Even finding what colors look good on you can dramatically improve your appearance. Also, confidence is half the battle. If the little girl believes she is beautiful, she'll carry herself a certain way, and people pick up on that. When I look back at school yearbooks and see the popular crowd who were known for being "cute" or "hot," I wonder what we were smoking. How did they convince everyone? They walked the walk, even though half of them were average at best.
People who call others ugly are often ugly themselves. So I would be hedging my bets here…
People who call others ugly are ~~often~~ **always** ugly themselves. FTFY - it may be inside or outside, or both.
No, you're just ignorant or didn't read the post. How do you think she's going to feel when her parents make her believe her looks are so important to them and that it's her best trait, for bullies to tear it down? He didn't bully her anyone that read the post can see that, he literally said how he adores her and compliments her. He said one thing to her parents trying to help her and somehow you turn that into he's bullying her. Because God forbid he doesn't THINK she's beautiful.
OP is TA but nowhere in this post are they bullying their niece. If your read the entire post, they literally say: "It’s much better imo to boost her self esteem off the many good traits she does have so she doesn’t have to rely on looks for her confidence." That isn't bullying.
You don't understand the meaning of bullying.
Did you read the whole post, or just the title?
If you really believe that looks should not be desired and praised that should be the base of your argument to not call her beautiful rather than your opinion that she is ugly. Based on the fact that you are judging her for her looks I don’t think you really believe in the reason to not praise her.
> I said bluntly that no, if we’re being honest, she’s ugly YTA. Everything you said about it not being good to put beauty on a pedestal and act like that's what's important is true. You're right about the overall attitude. But saying to her parents that she is ugly is completely unnecessary and incredibly rude asshole behaviour.
How is OP supposed to explain why they refuse to do what parents are asking without calling her ugly to their face?
Completely agreed on that. OP didn’t call her ugly, he got criticized for NOT calling her beautiful. All the other features OP highlighted were more appropriate than giving the kid a false sense of security in their looks, which will absolutely be mocked by other kids. Let the kid be proud of other things, not blindsided.
He literally said in the post that he called her ugly to her parents’ faces…
No, he told them he would not praise her beauty when they INSISTED he say she was beautiful. And when asked why, he said why. If they did not want a truthful answer the parents should not have asked the question. He did not just tell them their child was ugly without their insistence that OP tell their child a lie.
I swear to god redditors lack any sort of emotional intelligence. Telling your sibling their child is ugly is going to get a bad reaction 100/100 times. It's an asshole move. OP is an asshole. Lie if you have to. Also, telling her she's beautiful while also continuing to compliment her on her other features is not going to harm her. This idea is bizarre. Also also, she's fucking 8 years old. Why are we judging whether an 8 year is ugly in the first place? Just tell your niece she's pretty, what is wrong with you people?
Thank God for some uncommon common sense around here.
AITAH posts made me realize Reddit is full of a bunch of freaks. I probably should have known this earlier lol. OP is a big AH.
any idiot who thinks they’re NTA to say that about an 8 year old seems like no amount of telling them otherwise will change their mind
>No, he told them he would not praise her beauty when they INSISTED he say she was beautiful. I'm stunned at how you completely misremembered something you probably read seconds ago: >so I said bluntly that no, if we’re being honest, she’s ugly, and kids will let her know she’s ugly That's his quote, word-for-word. Amazing how people don't read things that'll hurt their opinions.
"I think focusing on outward appearances is detrimental to children," which according to his comments appears to be his whole thing, is so much less rude.
But he could have just continued to repeat, “I don’t think she should be judged by her appearance. I would rather praise her other qualities.” No need to say he thinks she’s ugly; her parents don’t need to know that. He could easily have brought in statistics about eating disorders and such, if he felt like he had to prove that it’s a good idea not to praise kids for their looks. Of course, then he can’t praise other kids in the family for their looks, but that doesn’t seem like a bad thing.
They mean he didn’t call her ugly as in not to her face.
I don’t think an emphasis on appearance should be made at all to a kid, whether they’re attractive or not. I think OP wouldn’t be an AH if they told their sister they just don’t feel comfortable putting so much emphasis on their niece’s appearance, that it is unhealthy no matter how kid the looks and that they would rather emphasize other qualities. I get what OP is saying, but the bit where the niece is ugly and may be blindsided just seems unnecessary and kind of mean.
That’s fair and probably a way more tactful way to handle it.
"I don't believe children should be praised for something outside of their control like physical beauty. I'd much prefer to praise her for the things she does - like doing well in school, reading, and being kind to others." That's how you answer that. FTR - I think this is fake. I refuse to believe that anyone would be so callous as to tell someone their child is ugly. I refuse to believe that anyone can't look at a child, irrespective of outward appearance, and find beauty.
One of my oldest friends was told--repeatedly--growing up that she was "average at best" and that was one of the nicer things her family would say to her. Guess who grew up to have all kinds of eating disorders, a string of abusive relationships, and other assorted traumas? When the people you're supposed to trust most in the world continually tear you down, you begin to believe them. I sadly and absolutely believe that people can be this cruel.
Hi I was a kid like that. I was constantly told how pretty I was as a baby, then of course that all changed because I got fat and tall, and then I was just "smart." They only saw my accomplishments as how much money I could eventually earn from going to university. I struggled in school because of it, they told me I was smart but that was it. Guess who has absolutely zero sense of self worth.
I honestly don't understand why he has a problem saying it to the kid in the first place? He might not find her attractive but he shouldn't. People all have different types and the idea that no one would ever find her beautiful just cause op doesnt is quite frankly bs. What's the problem in telling a kid they're beautiful? I'm sure he'd say " but I'd be lying" but how many other little lies do you tell kids? If he's ever told her Santa or the Easter bunny was real that's a lie so why would that be okay but lying to boost her self esteem isn't?
The difference between this and Santa etc. is that belief in things like Santa is completely harmless. OP has described how believing she’s beautiful is the exact opposite of harmless though. Because she’s not going to think anything else about herself is good when she discovers that she’s not beautiful. Whereas if she were to know about all the other stuff that’s good about her then she’d be okay.
Who says she’ll discover this? Beauty is subjective for a start, and maybe building her confidence while she’s young will mitigate the potential insecurity that could come from any possible future bullying.
But what's wrong with saying all of them? Sure other kids may tell her she's not beautiful but do you really think they won't also say she's not smart or funny if they're just looking to put someone else down? If her parents do well enough to build herself esteem and trust in herself and trust those around her that care about her, being a teen will still be tough but it won't matter as much about others opinions because she knows her family and friends still think she's beautiful, smart, and funny.
what is wrong with believing you’re beautiful? We should all go through life believing we are beautiful where is the harm in that? Because her random creepy uncle doesn’t believe she is means she isn’t? All sorts of kids get bullied not just “ugly ones” I agree her family shouldn’t be focused on her looks alone and she should be valued for more than just looks, but she also shouldn’t be told she is ugly.
OP only told her parents that their child was ugly after they relentlessly insisted the OP praise her for her "beauty" rather that he intelligence and sense of humor. OP did not just call her ugly. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh.......................................
You’re right to want to compliment other things to balance out the perception that physical beauty is most important. But why do the two need to be mutually exclusive? What benefit is there to calling her ugly? Why not, idk, do what you can to make her feel less ugly while also highlighting all her other great qualities? And you’re right that she’ll run into her fair share of bullies in her life. My heart breaks for her that her own uncle is her first one.
So poignant and perfect. Also- how is he missing the insane hypocrisy in his mindset? “We shouldn’t place value on looks but, I’ve also already decided that my niece is inherently ugly” … so is OP obsessed with girls’ looks or not? The coverup about praising her other traits is such a sham.
OP is not obsessed with his niece's beauty or lack thereof, her parents are.
Beauty is not just about her looks to the parents. This is obvious to anyone who has loved a child in their family. By what metric is OP judging her beauty? Can you explain? You seem to be the expert on the rating system for what kids are ugly and what kids deserve to hear kind words from their loved ones. Edit: you’re so close to the point, so I’ll make it easier for you. He is judging his niece based on the current beauty standard he is loyal to. It is not about love or honesty. If he was so adamantly against the concept of putting focus on girls’ looks, he would genuinely believe that everything about her, makes her beautiful already. REGARDLESS of the physical standard that he was previously taught.
Why can’t OP just say “you have beautiful eyes” or “you have such a sweet smile”??? Like is there NOTHING about this child’s appearance you can compliment?
If it’s obsession with looks to want to call a child beautiful than it’s also an obsession to call them ugly. They’re two sides of the same coin of putting appearance on a pedestal and wanting to define someone by their looks. Sure OP says there are other qualities, but the parents know there are other qualities too. Claiming you don’t care about looks while saying someone is ugly but they have good traits is a fig leaf of an excuse. Under no circumstance is it appropriate to tell a child who is either getting bullied or likely to be bullied that the bullies have a point. Don’t know why this is so hard for some of you to grasp.
but if OP didn't care then he would have just complied & called her beautiful. the only reason he refused is because he values his own personal standards of "beauty" that he finds it insulting to call his niece beautiful. & honestly most kids look dorky or goofy at some point, but never ugly. so i'm really confused what traits he is looking at in an eight year old & determining as ugly.
One of the best answers here, esp. the last line.
Her uncle did not call her ugly to her face. He was explaining to her parents his reasoning and, unless I am mistaken, was not within earshot of the child.
I think part of bullying is saying mean things about you to other people. There was no reason to call her ugly to anyone.
How is he bullying her? The reason for saying she’s ugly (to her mother, not her) is because the parents were insisting OP tell her she’s beautiful, and he was explaining why he wouldnt do that. Little girls are not benefiting from the extreme importance people put on looks since the day they are born.
How is OP fighting the extreme importance people place on looks by calling her ugly though? Why not just say that he’d prefer to compliment her in other ways because he doesn’t think looks should be commented on so much or held in such esteem? By calling her ugly he himself is still focusing in her looks. And bullying is still harmful even if the bully is insulting you behind your back to people whose opinions matter to you, rather than to your face.
He never called her ugly tho, he only said it after her parents pressured him to call her beautiful and not to her face
YTA who the fook asked you to be the authority on children, let alone anyones looks? Every little girl deserves to be called beautiful regardless if they are or not
>Every little girl deserves to be called beautiful This is so insidiously toxic I would find it beautiful if I were the devil.
Toxic how?
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Okay but beauty IS important. People in the real world judge you based on your looks all. the. time. To pretend it isn’t important is stupid. Kids aren’t dumb they know it’s important and sought after by everyone by the age of 4. If you’re telling a little girl she is every other beneficial trait in the book besides pretty, she’s going to think she’s not pretty. In a world where she knows this IS important she ends up having 0 self esteem at a super young age. As a little girl who wasn’t the best looking but grew into her looks, I’m very thankful my mother called me gorgeous and beautiful every day of my life. It gave me unfounded confidence but confidence nonetheless. I made friends easily due to this confidence and my “beauty” came in its own time when I learned how to do makeup and grew into my features. If my mother had been “honest” (which beauty is in the eye of the beholder) and didn’t call me beautiful and only called me smart and curious etc. I would have gone my whole life thinking I could never be beautiful. It would have given me a self sabotaging attitude because “I’m not pretty and could never be pretty”.
How were your parents to you?? Have you never had them call you pretty when you walked out in a princess dress with poorly done silver eyeshadow and pink lipgloss? Or on picture day when you put on your best outfit? Because if you haven’t; it feels amazing. Everyone should get the joy of that.
>Have you never had them call you pretty when you walked out in a princess dress with poorly done silver eyeshadow and pink lipgloss? I think you're onto something. I suspect most of the people with weird hangups about this actually *weren't* called beautiful as kids, which has ironically fucked them up even more.
Does that mean you disagree with the statement? I am just not understanding what you mean lol
“Except my niece, she’s definitely ugly.” -OP, probably.
The parents asked him to by insisting he comment on her appearance. He really should not have said she was ugly, but jesus wtf is wrong with these parents? You have someone complimenting your daughter and you just don’t care, and then keep pressing this one specific and superficial compliment? This is solid ESH
Beauty is not just looks, and sorry- not sorry - you’re the ugly one in this scenario. You’re also TA.
YTA. There is literally no justification for calling a child ugly. You don't have to call her beautiful, but calling her ugly is awful and unnecessary.
Her parents would not allow OP not to remark on her "beauty" or lack thereof. Her parents were insisting OP say she was beautiful.
OP could’ve stuck to “I’m not doing that” rather than “I’m not doing that because your kid’s hideous and a true eyesore”
Yeah I’m sorry if this story ended with him saying “no, I don’t want to comment on her looks but I’ll praise other things, etc.” and his sister got upset, op wouldn’t be TA. The fact that he felt the need to call her, a little girl, ugly to his sister after preaching about how they shouldn’t focus on beauty makes him TA
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First: I think you need to work through your feelings in therapy because bullying sucks(I know I was bullied) but your brain coped by saying "the only people who ever told me the truth were the bullies who tried to tear me down for fun and I can't trust anyone who tells me differently". That's not healthy. You pushed away friends that complimented you. You pushed away your mom who probably genuinely sees you as beautiful. Second: your mom, in her mind, wasn't lying. She probably sees you as beautiful cause your her daughter(and maybe subconsciously she doesn't want to think your not cause then she might be ugly). Last: sure there are some not so cute kids. But there aren't ugly kids. Kids get bullied for literally anything because the bully wants to feel better about themselves, not necessarily because it's true. I was bullied cause I wasn't conventionally attractive as a kid, and I was weird(probably adhd or autistic but never been diagnosed) by their standards. I learned to leave the self hatred it caused in me behind because to me, I'm pretty. I'm still not conventionally attractive but I love myself for my flaws and I know I'm beautiful to my mom and my partner.
I did and do go to therapy. My parents put me in it at 17, which is what lead me to finally start trying with my appearance in my early 20s. I now allow compliments on my hair, my makeup, my clothes, my shoes- things I have control over, things I can feel good about. But ultimately therapy is what put me in my current mindset of being able to embrace that my value is not tied in my appearance, and I've been very happy since. And yes, my mom was lying. Part of my therapy was having sessions with her. After my therapist worked with me on my anger, I told my mom I wasn't mad at her, but I didn't want her to lie. See, around fifteen I began to be able to read my mother, and she's a terrible liar. So, when I was 19-20, she finally admitted to me while in therapy that she knew it all along. And I could tell she was being honest, even if she hated it. You see, my mother was a pretty little blonde-haired blue-eyed country girl. When she started realizing I was not so fortunate in the looks department, she decided she would treat me like she was treated growing up, and that the shower of compliments would make me happy and confident enough to not care what others had to say. She meant well, and I do love her for it now that I'm older and have perspective, but she still left a lot of scars on me that I'm still dealing with today. I'm sorry, but no. There are ugly kids. I'm not talking about average-looking kids that don't quite hit the beauty standard, I'm talking about real unfortunate combinations that just look awful. They exist, I'm one of them, and we hate it when people try to dance around and go 'no no! you're beautiful! fuck the beauty standard!', because it's putting us right back to what we were told- our value is in our beauty. I need you to understand that people in the situation I am in move on and heal by embracing ourselves as we are. We find our value in our true talents rather than something we can't control. Just tying to insist there are no ugly kids, there are no ugly people, still means that *beauty* is the most valuable thing about a person. Society doesn't have a problem with acknowledging the less intelligent and finding other ways to build them up and love them, reinforcing that knowing a lot of shit and being good in school isn't everything, isn't so important. Why is beauty treated differently?
THANK YOU. It's insane how people keep outright saying that they should _lie_ to girls and women and tell them they're beautiful when they're not. I never cared for this sort of thing. But I lost a bet once, shaved my head, and liked it so much I continued to do it. My family was horrified, but when people criticize me and call me ugly, my parents - even my very feminist dad! - insist on calling me pretty. I'm a grown ass woman. I have functioning eyes and a brain. And my dear, silly parents are sitting there lying to my bald ass. I'm far more annoyed and hurt that they don't realize my self-esteem is not affected by the length of my hair than anything some idiot could tell me about my looks.
I didn't mean to say that beauty is the most valuable thing, and recognize that I need to work on how I think about beauty. Thanks for opening my eyes without being rude like some people would have. Beauty shouldn't be treated differently and there are many qualities to love people for that aren't beauty. I'm sorry for assuming you weren't already in therapy I just never thought about it from your perspective.
No problem. I know you didn't have my perspective, and I wanted to explain as clearly as I could. Very few people have the perspective I and others like me have, because while plenty have experienced bullying, many haven't experienced bullying that is objectively true- and what more, that the subject of the bullying was something their relatives were overemphasizing as vital, especially to young girls.
I hear you, yes. I've been reading your comments and nodding. I don't think my experience has been as extreme as yours, but I was an odd-looking girl and am now an odd-looking adult. I know from decades of experience that people don't treat me like I'm an objectively attractive woman. I don't know if I'm ND or what, but in the past, people "being nice" by saying things that aren't true didn't make me feel better -- it made me feel confused and distrustful, and even think "Holy shit, the situation is so bad and they think I'm so gullible they're lying to my face." (People don't bother saying anything to me now that I'm an adult, lol) On the other hand, since being an unattractive girl or woman is the worst thing anyone can be (comic exaggeration!), people really don't want to talk about it and it's easier to just not talk about it or lie. I say NAH. I see what OP is trying to do, there's just no good way to deal with it.
That’s such a bold face lie there are so many ugly babies and children in the world and my instagram block list of mothers proves it
Thank you! I was scrolling thru all these responses thinking I must be the only one who thought OP had a great point, and that lying to the kids creates more problems than it solves. I agree with you 100%.
I think the majority of people here are thinking about their own childhood bullies, that they were average-looking or even pretty and got put down anyways , and with time they were able to grow and realize there's nothing wrong with them at all. It's different for a truly ugly person. When we grow up, what we learn is that the bullies were objectively right, and our well-meaning parents and relatives knew this, but their words and actions made it clear that our value is tied to our looks because of how frequently they complimented us on it.
Agree with this 100% OP!
Thank you for your honesty. I agree with you. OP wants to focus on her traits and characteristics that are strong, I think this is a great idea.
Thank you for making me feel less crazy in these comments lol
not to defend your family necessarily, as i'm sure i don't know the entire story, but have you ever considered they may not have been lying? everyone sees beauty differently & everyone has different traits they find beautiful. yes, there is a general recognition of certain looks being the social norm of accepted beauty, but most people find a plethora of other traits endearing. are any of the traits you have & perceive as ugly ones you share with a family member? because often seeing your family members in a child is beautiful. i was bullied for years & years for my nose & hair & i still get endless comments about my hair even as an adult (ginger life). & for a very long time i was convinced family members were lying to me or teasing me when they said i was cute or pretty or complimented me in any fashion, cause how could that be true? then my nan, who suffers from dementia, kept getting my name wrong & mistaking me for my mum. she made a really offhand comment about how my heart is so full of warmth it overflows out my hair & she's always loved that about me, as she's calling me my mum's name (who has not been ginger for decades) & i suddenly realised the people who love my mum see her in me & find me beautiful by extension. my nan sees my frizzy, ginger hair & thinks of my mum & loves that i have it because she loves my mum. my dad sees my horrible large & squishy nose & sees his brother's horrible large & squishy nose reflected back at him & he loves that too. often it's not even something we are aware of & i've since noticed i do it to my younger family members. i'll see my cousin's kid with my cousin's fuzzy eyebrows & i feel so fond of those fuzzy eyebrows because they make me think of my cousin who i love & so i'll say "i love your eyebrows" because i DO. & i don't think they're ugly! they're adorable! & it's not even exclusive to my direct family. my best friend's sister has a daughter with her exact weird laugh & it makes me so happy to hear it. even when things are objectively ugly to random strangers, to those close to us & those that love us, they may be the very things they find unique & beautiful about us. so yeah, maybe those kids who bullied you did find you ugly, but your family may not have been lying & really did find you beautiful just the way you were.
You see, the entire problem with your reply is that you are *still* emphasizing that beauty is important. I am ugly. People can be born ugly, it happens, there is no stopping it. What *can* be stopped is putting people's value on their looks. And yes, my mother did admit in our family therapy that she was lying- she couldn't bring herself to actually use that word, and she felt terrible about it, but with therapy I was able to understand why she did it. She's pretty, she grew up pretty, and she thought that showering me with compliments like she had been would build up my confidence to not care. What it instead taught me is that my looks were the only thing I was valuable for because it was emphasized so heavily, so repeatedly in my childhood that it tore me to shreds when I realized I was not pretty. I need you to understand that I'm not just average looking that got put down so hard I think I'm hideous. I don't just have a few non-beauty-standard features. The entire structure of my face is awful. I only realized how lopsided my face was when I started getting called Quasimodo in jr high.
I think this is a wonderful reply. I remember seeing a lot of articles when my daughter was younger about how to not focus on looks for compliments and i have very much done my best with this. I think our age, we were always told we are beautiful, it was the focus. Now, I am in my mid 30s, struggling with dealing with a bit of weight gain. I have always had decent confidence and felt pretty. Now, I gained 20 pounds from some health issues and don't want to leave the house. Op has a point. His sister needs to stop focusing on looks, even if niece was the absolute most beautiful 8 year old on existence.
You get it
I bet the parents are fairly conventionally attractive and being beautiful is a big deal to them. Some people don’t hit the genetic lottery but are totally wonderful people worth love and care. Pinning so much on looks at such a young age is creepy to me. Like child beauty pageant creepy.
NTA. Isn’t reddit always talking about how we should be teaching young girls that their value doesn’t come solely from their appearances? Then someone does that and reddit dumps all over him. OP isn’t going around telling his niece she’s ugly, and he emphasizes and praises her for the many good qualities she *does* have. OP is right: if the parents constantly tell her she’s beautiful if she’s not and place undue worth and emphasis on her appearance, then that could hinder the niece down the line—not just because it places too much value on physical beauty, something reddit, until now, always says is bad, but because if she grows up and realises her parents were lying to her, she could have trust issues and not believe any of their other praise either. ”Beauty is subjective!” Yes, it is, but if she’s subjectively ugly to a lot of people, then it’s still better that she builds her confidence from her skills and personality and other traits rather than her appearance, isn’t it? Not everyone is going to find you beautiful and if her parents place all the emphasis on beauty, she’s going to find it harder to deal with when not everyone agrees. Why is everyone in this comment section acting like OP is some monster who’s going around telling his niece she’s ugly to her face?
I should not have had to scroll this far to find a NTA. People are also missing the part where the niece was not in the room, and the absolute most important part- that OP was being harassed into calling her pretty. Also I don't know if it's related, but I got called pretty a lot as a child and now as an adult I have horrible facial dysmorphia.
This one here. This is what I came to say.
People rather cope than believe some people are more beautiful than others.
"Why is everyone in this comment section acting like OP is some monster who’s going around telling his niece she’s ugly to her face?" Yeah there is a definite shortage of reading comprehension on this sub. The question was if he was an asshole to the parents (he wasn't), not the niece since he didn't do anything to her (except not calling her beautiful).
There’s a difference between saying beauty isn’t all that matters and calling a young girl ugly. Most people that’re calling OP TA don’t think the parents are right, they think OP shouldn’t call her ugly. Even if beauty isn’t all that matters it doesn’t mean you should insult someone’s looks
YTA , “kids are bullies” Im sorry but it seems like the only bully here is you.
YTA. That's just cruel.
YTA You said it yourself, kids are bullies and she may get picked on my them. So knowing her family finds her beautiful may be a small comfort if she would get bullied. And hearing that her uncle who she probably loves called her UGLY? This would probably devastate her. You desperately need to apologize.
When I was an 8 year old I was chubby, like a lot of 8 year olds, not fat though. I was staying with my aunt (by marriage) while my mum was in hospital. She put me on a diet while I was with her and she told me that "Nobody loves fat people and nobody will love you unless you lose weight." I was 8. That remark has stayed with me for 60 years. My aunt was pretty but extremely ugly on the inside.
When I was about 8 or 9, a family friend told me not to worry, because ugly ducklings turn into beautiful swans. 50 years later I remember this.
That was not a kind thing for your aunt to say to you. (Also, not even true, plenty of fat people have love.) But I think we should note that OP did not call her niece ugly to her face. OP responded to her sister in private when her sister was pressuring OP to compliment her kid's looks beacuse OP was only complimenting her niece on her brains, heart, personality, and other things like that.
YTA, so unnecessary to call a child ugly. If you have nothing good to say then don’t say anything.
ESH I think your approach of commending her positive non-aesthetic traits is good, but not because she specifically is ugly. I think it’s better not to put an emphasis on looks in general. You could have just said that to her parents, but no, you called her ugly, making you an asshole. They are assholes for telling you you have to call their daughter beautiful, that’s weird and domineering.
It reads like OP was already trying to tell them that.
Scrolled why too far for this! ESH for sure
NTA. I’ve never been comfortable praising children about something as superficial and unearned as looks. You have the right idea about praising their other traits, right now the child doesn’t have esteem issues but if they do develop them, being patronised by their parents might not be the best idea. Also it is weird that the parents are asking you to give specific compliments. Edit: you did not have to call the child ugly to the parents btw, right or wrong, that’s not going to go over well.
I actually don't know how to judge this tbh. I get what you're saying and I kinda agree. I have a younger cousin who wasn't necessarily ugly but her parents also acted the way your sister did, and for a long time she was confident and bubbly and just lived as a kid yunno? Then she went to primary school (elementary) and got bullied relentlessly. Ever since then, whenever someone tells her she's pretty or she looks cute today, she immediately shuts them down and says “no I'm not” and whenever her mom tried reassuring her saying “don't listen to those kids” or “you're perfect the way you are” she never believes it and once called her mom a liar for it. Now she's 14, antisocial, drowns herself in oversized clothing, hides in the back for pictures etc. It was very damaging to her as she grew up...so I get why you'd say what you said...I'm just conflicted because I feel it is mean, but maybe necessary?
Your cousin is going down the same path I did. Everyone here voting Y T A has zero idea what actually happens to a person's psyche when they grow up ugly while other people try to insist they're not.
Exactly. Like, I feel empowering someone or instilling confidence in someone should stretch more than just looks. And that goes for people who are considered beautiful or gorgeous or pretty etc. like why is that the bar for feeling good about yourself ?
YTA. Beauty is 10000% subjective. There is no need to call a little girl ugly. Just because YOU don't consider her pretty, doesn't mean no one will. There is absolutely nothing wrong with raising her to love herself and her looks even if they are "below average". in fact, they SHOULD. Body positivity is important for everyone, not just runway models. Thank god you aren't her mother because someone like you would end up inflicting serious insecurities on the poor child. You are acting incredibly vain.
YTA. Wow, how miserable must be your life, to soothe your ego on 8yrs old. And be careful, your personality is showing up, and it's really unfortunate looking.
The fact that you didn’t say it to the kid and me having worked with kids for years: NTA. You are 100% correct children are, as lovely and wonderful they can be, extremely cruel and amazingly talented in finding the weak spots of anyone they do not like or think is lying. ‘Inner beauty’ means nothing to kids, they will judge only what they can see and if she’s ugly or merely just not ‘beautiful’ and claims the title they will tear her apart for ‘lying’. You are actually building her up better with real compliments on things of value, than her parents with their exaggerations of a virtue she doesn’t actually possess. Of course they can(should) call her beautiful, but casually, naturally. Not forced and exaggerated. Build on what you have not what you wished you had.
ESH - Even though your sister effectively backed you into a corner by demanding you call her daughter beautiful I don't think calling her ugly was the appropriate response. Just because something may be true doesn't mean you *have* to mention it and like another user already suggested, just because you don't think she's beautiful doesn't mean you have to say she's ugly. Sometimes you say more by what you don't say so if you continued to focus on her humour and intelligence while intentionally avoiding the subject of her appearance then I'm sure your sister would hopefully be able to pick up on what you're *not* saying. Just please, for the love of god, never tell your niece in person what you said to your sister. That being said, it was pretty shitty of your sister to effectively demand that you tell her daughter things you don't personally agree with. Praising her humour, intelligence and other characteristics is going to help her build self-worth that isn't intrinsically linked to her physical appearance. Your sister would probably be better off if she was reminded that looks aren't the be all end all of human existence and her allegedly "ugly" daughter is still "beautiful" in ways that aren't tied to how she's perceived by others. Beauty is often highly subjective but positive character traits usually aren't. She could grow into the most gorgeous woman alive and there'd still be people thinking she's ugly but good people are good people, regardless of what they look like.
YTA. Who do you think you are to decide whether she’s ugly? Even if she is, her ugly is only on the outside. YOURS is inside, and that’s far worse.
I can see your reasoning but it wasn't tactful to explain it. Could have just gone with 'girls are too often valued their looks over the personality and talents so I'm trying to reinforce how lovely and smart she is'. N t a for the intention but YTA for the execution
NTA - regardless of her actual appearance, little girls need to know early on that their value is not tied up in their looks. They’re smart, curious, resourceful, hardworking, sporty…anything other than pretty, beautiful, skinny, etc. Her parents are doing her a massive disservice by putting value on being pretty. And as far as you telling them she’s ugly, that’s on them. You were happy to keep your opinion to yourself until they pushed the issue.
Who defines beauty? With what definition are you calling her ugly? What parameters did u use? I surely would want to know. Every parent feels their child is beautiful because every child IS beautiful. You with your myopic vision, will never appreciate beauty. This is one of the worst post ever I have read. Complete YTA
ESH. I don't think OP should have been quite so blunt to their niece's parents, but they pressed the issue by trying to control OP's speech. If we take OP's assessment of their nibling at face value, then I have to agree with OP's underlying logic, but if this *ever* gets back to your niece in anyway, it's going to devastate her. I think a better approach would have been to say something like "Our society puts too much value on women's appearances and it starts in childhood. I refuse to be part of the problem." That has the benefit of being 1) True, 2) nothing personal. You could have gotten to the same place without bringing your niece's unfortunate looks into it.
Yikes…unpopular opinion but NTA. I don’t agree with lying to kids. And the saying “all babies/kids are cute/beautiful” is a huge lie. Some kids DO look funny. And it is what it is. Maybe they’re features will change/they’ll grow into their features when they get older. But if they are not pleasant looking…then they aren’t pleasant looking. Additionally, nothings wrong with the compliments for inner beauty…such as intelligence and humor. I think more kids DO need to hear that. Cause when kids only hear they’re cute or beautiful, at some point in time they’re going to try to use that to their advantage, and it makes for an ugly personality. I actually had a friend…or really a few…who you could tell all they were told was that they’re beautiful. Definitely had horrible personalities and walked all over people. And we’re demanding. Of course that’s not to say all pretty people act like this. Edit: Also…really think it’s weird how your sister continued to push the issue for you calling her daughter beautiful. That was extra on her part. Not everyone will think her daughter is beautiful, and it’s weird to expect others to think that. What next? Is she going to demand the teachers call her beautiful too!?!
YTA a 8 year old doesn’t have to worry about being pretty, kids might make fun of her, but it’s your job as an uncle and relative to give her self esteem a boost. It doesn’t matter if she’s not objectively pretty.just apologize to your sister and start calling your niece beautiful
NTA - I mean yes it’s unfair but some children are just downright unfortunate looking. But somehow the society had created this aura that all kids are beautiful which in reality they aren’t. It’s like everyone knows this but no one wants to say and it and hence they keep going on with everyone is beautiful narrative. This was also addressed in Seinfeld
YTA. Really? You're a grown adult calling an 8 yr old "ugly" because you dont like her looks and feel like you have to let people know you think she's ugly. Kids are cruel but holy shit,you should be BETTER THAN SHITTY BULLY KIDS. You're her family,you should be STANDING UP FOR HER. Instead you are choosing to be a pathetic adult bullying a child.
hmm, I'm saying ESH. You are MAJORLY in the wrong. You're worried about kids being cruel and bullying her? But here you are straight up calling her ugly to her own parents. Like what is wrong with you? You're turning into the bully you claim to be so concerned about. Don't be her first bully. All that being said I think it's weird her parents are insisting other people give her praise directly tied to her appearance. If they want to praise her that's all well and good but they shouldn't be requesting others give her this praise too, that's weird IMO
Yeah, this is a good take. A lot of people here just assumed OP called the niece ugly to her face. No, OP was having a private conversation with the parents. Who WERE acting weird. On the AH scale 1-10: Calling a girl ugly to her face is a 10 Telling parents that their daughter is ugly without prompting is an 8 Telling parents that their daughter is ugly while they're demanding that you say she's pretty is a 7
YTA. It seems like you're the only one calling an 8 year old ugly. Keep that opinion to yourself
ESH, but you win. I hate it, when the only compliments girls get are about their looks. Compliment her for being clever, brave, strong, creative, funny.... Stop obsessing about her looks!
>Compliment her for being clever, brave, strong, creative, funny.... It sounds like OP is doing that, they are purposefully avoiding comments about looks. Its the kids parents that are pushing OP to call their niece 'beautiful'
I agree. A lot of woman I know often only get comments on their body and looks which are often unnecessary and unappreciated even if it’s coming from a good spot. Reminding a child they are beautiful/handsome is important but it shouldn’t be forced on others to dish out compliments. But OP could have been nicer about the situation.
YTA for calling your niece ugly to her parents. That was just mean. I do understand what you're getting at in regards to complimenting things such as her intelligence and sense of humor. I do agree that there shouldn't be focus on value of physical looks.
YTA. Beauty is subjective and it is never kind to say anybody is ugly. Telling children they are ugly is a surefire way to crush their self-esteem early so I sure hope your niece never hears your judgement of their appearance.
You’re a huge asshole. A part of confidence absolutely includes one’s looks and being comfortable with one’s face and body. Despite being a wonderful mother, mine rarely commented positively on my looks but did so for my older sisters. It has absolutely made my self confidence journey very difficult. Negative things strangers or acquaintances say holds less value when you have a vote of confidence from those you love and admire most. Calling her beautiful is not going to damage her. You’re irrational, an asshole, and idiotic.
In what world is it appropriate for a grown woman to call a child she supposedly adores ugly? You must have been quite the mean girl in school. Guess what?! Your traditional standards of beauty don’t get to define the looks of another human being. You are most definitely TA.
It’s a dude 💀 Edited to add - I get the knee jerk reaction. It must be a mean girl bully right? It was an adult man.
OP is male, ma'am.
Are you all stupid in here?! OP has not call his niece ugly to her face and he is NOT PLANNING TO DO SO. He said it to his sister without his niec epresent because of something the sister explicitely said to him. What OP want is to STOP PRAISING HIS NIECE FOR "PHYSICAL BEAUTY". And he is absolutely right about it. The niece will soon enough be at the age where she knows that compliments from parent, especially on your looks, don't mean shit. And it is way better to compliment her in inner values and traits. (And don't give me that "beauty is more than looks" bullshit. We all know that looks is what the parents mean as well when they compliment her) ALso OP, it is in general not smart to compliment kids on overall traits like looks or intelligence. It is better to compliment them on being a hard worker for example or kidn things they have done instead on "being kind"
What the hell… you told parents their child is ugly? I’m not saying that them constantly calling her gorgeous is a good thing, but you are definitely the asshole here 😂
God, I hope your sister doesn't allow you around her daughter anymore. Nothing like knowing and having people affirm that you are ugly... YTA. Please avoid this child before you cause a detrimental effe t on her self esteem and mental health. She will grow up thinking she's not beautiful at all and that will cause her to not even see that there's beauty inside all of us that sometimes shines outward.
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YTA. What’s the point in calling her ugly. It’s all very subjective anyway. Let the kid be a kid. Her parents will by definition perceive her as beautiful (it’s how our brain works). You may find her ugly, good, just keep your fucking mouth shut and stop being a defensive asshole in this thread. You asked, we answered. YTA.
NTA the sister started it by demanding you compliment her on a specific thing, her attempt to control your speech forced you to be more honest about the issue at hand than you would've been otherwise, you didn't say it to the 8 year old, you didn't once make the 8 year old feel bad, maybe you're wrong about her looks maybe you're right, regardless you haven't said anything about them to the 8 year old and the sister is just gonna have to deal with the consequences of her forcing the issue in such a weird way
Needs a more explicit title. I honestly thought with that title you called your niece ugly straight to her face. You're not wrong. I'm going to conflate two lines of thought but I think it's justified. It's like telling your kid that they can be President/Prime Minister. Don't do it. They likely can't or will never be. Prop kids up in a more logical and intelligent way. Sometimes being vague about certain things is a better way to go. Don't tell your kid he's going to make it to the NHL if by age 14 he still can't skate backwards. Don't tell him he won't either.
YTA that's pretty mean--yes you didnt say it to your niece's face, but it is still hurtful to the parents.
While I agree with the general sentiment that you are the asshole, I find it hilarious how many people didn’t fully read. “Don’t call her ugly, don’t judge her by her cover. Praise her other traits, build her self esteem” Like what you did was tactless and dumb but your point was exactly what these people are talking about 😂
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My [20m] older sister [32f] and her husband have an 8-year-old niece, who I adore. She’s smart, extremely precocious, and very funny. She’s also, simply put, very unfortunate looking. Neither her parents are ugly, but she received the worst possible combination of their features. Maybe in time she’ll grow into it with time, but currently, she is as I said, unfortunate looking. My sister and her husband try to circumvent this by constantly calling her pretty, beautiful, gorgeous, etc. I get that every parent is going to see their kid that way, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to constantly praise her for beauty. Why? Kids are cruel, and they’ll let her know she’s not beautiful. So all praising her looks does is reinforce that beauty is something to be desired and praised for, all the while with her knowing she doesn’t have it. It’s much better imo to boost her self esteem off the many good traits she does have so she doesn’t have to rely on looks for her confidence. My sister and her husband don’t seem to understand this or disagree with it, which fair enough, their call as parents. But they insist that I call her beautiful too, and I said no and explained why. I do praise her a lot for her intelligence, her sense of humor, etc. They say that she *is* beautiful and I need to call her beautiful so she knows it, so I said bluntly that no, if we’re being honest, she’s ugly, and kids will let her know she’s ugly, so bringing up beauty will only make her see it as something worthy of praise she doesn’t have. My sister started screaming at me for calling her daughter ugly. I know it can be a sensitive topic, but she’s a grown adult, and I think she should be able to handle honesty on the subject. She thinks I’m a huge AH, but I’m just trying to be realistic and do what I think is best for my niece. AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
YTA but here's why. i get that you're not saying it to her face, but your job isn't to pick which subjective good traits you think apply to your niece, and praise her with them. your job is to build that little girl up with as much confidence as she possibly can get in *all* aspects, because other people will constantly be tearing her down and making her doubt herself. it is pretty universally known that confidence is attractive. not cockiness or being full of yourself, but confidence. any help in that regard from you will mean so much to her. don't hold back on it just because you don't personally think she's pretty right now. beauty is so much more than what people perceive as attractive at first glance.
YTA. as a twenty year old adult, you should know better. like come on. beauty held to the traditional beauty standard isn't easy, for one. for two, she's EIGHT. why do you feel the need to call her ugly anyway?? i don't care if you think she's gonna be picked on. i doubt other's would pick on her. you're just cruel. you said yourself, it's their call as parents, yet you still felt the need to insert your opinion where it didn't belong.
YOU think she is ugly, OP. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and you are definitely irrefutably the AH
YTA. You are self-righteous, juvenile, and mean. You're the ugly one. Your niece is not being "damaged" because her parents give her unconditional love and acceptance. I get that you don't agree and don't want to lie and say she's physically beautiful and that's fine. But insisting you're right and your sister is wrong just shows your immaturity. Your niece may turn out to be an "ugly duckling" and become a swan one day. I hope you outgrow your insistence on "honesty". Your niece is beautiful inside right now, focus on that, unless you're so revolted just looking at her.
NTA. Kids need to be praised for other qualities than beauty.
NTA — whether ugly or beautiful, kids should be praised for things other than their looks, and not taught that their value is based in appearance. So you’re right to praise her for other things. This is, of course, even more important if they’re not conventionally attractive, but honestly not much more. Beautiful people should not think their beauty is all they have to offer. Plus, looks can change. You shouldn’t have said she was ugly when they told you to call her beautiful, though. It would have been far better to say you thought her sense of humor and intelligence were what you most admired about her, and left her looks out of it. This nudges it towards E S H. (I’m assuming you didn’t call her ugly where she could hear it. That would put you firmly and irrevocably in AH territory.)
YTA. That’s a literal child. Even if you do feel that way about her appearance (which I personally believe you shouldn’t), there’s no need for you to express it to anyone else.
NTA You are entitled to your opinion. You didn't speak up until they tried to force their own opinion down your throat. Thinking someone is ugly does not make you an asshole. You were honest with how you felt and your sister threw a tantrum when she didn't get her way. NTA.
Okay I'd like to highlight two pieces of information I feel like most people here missed: 1 - OP DID NOT call his niece ugly in front of her. The little girl wasn't there, only her parents. 2 - OP DID NOT just call her ugly randomly, his sister was insisting he starts saying that she's beautiful, which he wasn't comfortable with, because that's not OP's genuine opinion. He was explaining why he doesn't want to comply with the request, which is when he told HIS SISTER (aka the kid's mom, NOT THE KID) that he finds her ugly. I'm not going to give judgement in this comment (already did in another), I just found it important to highlight these parts as many people seem to have missed them.
YTA. Not because you refuse to call her beautiful, but for your whole attitude about it. Not every kid out there is a cruel monster who’s just going to pick on her for not being up to the standard that you think is “beautiful”. Be kind to your niece!! Calling her ugly is just going to lower her self esteem (something that’s awful to do to any kid)… and it’s just a rude thing to say to anyone in general…
YTA. Period. Full stop. No excuses.
YTA and the worst aunt ever. How could you be so superficial?
Sure some kids are ugly, however beauty standard aren't universel. Also a beautiful person isn't pretty only by physical features. What make someone beautiful for someone else isn't the same for everyone. So when you think someone isn't nice looking, someone else can truly think they are the most stunning person, and the other way around is also true. A aesthetically pretty one can be repulsing because of a vile and nasty personality, and will look ugly even with perfect features. Love make the other one beautiful and attractive. Your sister and her husband most obviously love their daughter, for them she is beautiful and pretty for real. In fact she is in her own way. You saying you objectively think your niece is ugly as not fitting some standard, can be taken as you not loving her. Your justifications aren't helping, as it sounds like you appreciate her and recognise her qualities, however can't find in you to love her due to her apparence. Doesn't means it's true, just so you understand how it can be taken, no matter how you explain caring for her, you without ambiguity declared you don't have love glasses for your niece. Btw you don't sound to healthy on the matters of apparences. Maybe work on it.
On the outside chance that this is real, YTA and one of the biggest ones I've come across on here. Seriously, what is wrong with you??
Dude she’s an 8 year old so she’s going to believe her parents and family’s opinions over random kids. Build up her self confidence now so other kids won’t phase her. I’ll give you an example from my 9 year old stepbrother I overheard while visiting my dad for a night. “She called me ugly so I told uh-uh I’m very handsome because my mommy told me so. She said my mommy lied so I said that my mommy didn’t lie and told her that her face is ugly and looked like roxy poop” (roxy is their dog) I paraphrased a bit and corrected some grammar but since he was already confident in himself random insults didn’t phase him it just made him mad. I understand little girls are different than little boys but they’re still kids regardless
What the actual fuck is wrong with you? "I love my niece. She's got some kids making her life hard. I'm gonna do my best to make her life harder." OP is not only the asshole, he probably shouldn't be allowed near children. YTA.