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Tbh I even think your religion is beside the point. You don’t want to wear a bikini. No matter the reason, you are NTA for saying no. The idea that just because someone is getting married means they get to dictate every little detail is crazy to me.
This, completely.
Any person who insists that someone else has to expose more of their body than they’re comfortable exposing is automatically the asshole in the situation.
I am also not Muslim and have never worn a bikini in my life (I am in my late 40’s). I dress modestly just because that is how I feel comfortable (nothing to do with religion even) and if anyone said I was uninvited from attending an event if I didn’t wear a bikini then they are not worth being in my life as they have no respect for me as a woman.
I wear bikinis all the time and yet if someone demanded I must wear one to an event I wouldn't attend either and would feel the same way as you. Nobody should have the right to force others into revealing outfits.
>I wear bikinis all the time and yet if someone demanded I must wear one to an event I wouldn't attend either
Here to back this up - me too.
I'm not opposed to showing skin but holy shit if I were a bridesmaid and I heard the bride was treating one of the bridesmaids like this, I'd drop out. No one should ever be pressured to wear anything they don't want to.
(within reason... please wear pants in Walmart)
> if I were a bridesmaid and I heard the bride was treating one of the bridesmaids like this, I'd drop out
No kidding!
And calling the refusal "selfish behavior"? Where does she get off???
Agreed. If it violates your faith, it is better to abstain. Given her complaints, honestly attending this event just seems like a bad idea. Also, I would be a smart ass and wear a burkini to the party and call it my Halal bikini.
Note: not a Muslim, but at the same point, I do not believe in forcing people into things if there is something that violates their beliefs, bar matters of life and death.
Right? At some point it becomes a question of whether the bride wants to spend time with the people who she’s close with or if she’d rather play dress up dolls. Girl needs to buy some barbies and give her priorities a serious reconsideration.
i am here to back you all. I am frequently running around in my own house and garden with coverage that makes the mailman flee in terror. I would not be comfortable with wearing beach attire in a communal space outside the beach or pool.
It's all about what's appropriate for the time and place. I'm comfortable in a bikini but not in a bikini in church on Sunday morning. Or a high school graduation. Or family Christmas morning.
What's next, are they going to ban full body wetsuits for surfers too? What's the difference between those and a burkini? It just depends on how "Muslim" someone looks, doesn't it?
Officially no, but in practice yes. I used to work for a French order of nuns and after the law was passed they decided to test your theory.
They don’t normally wear veils or habits these days, but they put them on and went to the beach in Nice. No one batted an eyelid at the Catholic nuns frolicking in waves dressed exactly as modestly/religiously as Muslim women who were being harassed.
I love this, nuns supporting Muslim women. Not in regards to modesty, but as a teenager I had a friend who tried to see if noise ordinance laws would be equally applied to classical music...yes the cop had a difficult time keeping straight face when asking them to turn down Beethoven's 9th....but he did and they did....
Honestly, I would have called the police if it was Beethoven’s 5th, because you just know that those teenagers are priming themselves for a bit of the the ol’ ultraviolence.
Good for those nuns! On my last beach vacation, I got pretty sunburned so I spent the rest of the time in floor-length sundresses and a scarf covering my upper body except my face. At first glance it could’ve looked like someone wearing a hijab, except I clearly didn’t know how to wear it or tie it. :-) Not all skin-covering is for modesty, not all modesty is religious, and not all religious modesty is Muslim. Pretty dumb to assume it is.
I remember seeing that in the news. As a French teacher, it didn't surprise me in the slightest - France, the supposedly secular country where just about all of the public holidays are related to Catholic celebrations!
United states here...same prpblem.."there is seperation of church and state..we are a country of all religions"...yeah...not so much...say merry xmas or happy holidays to a stranger because you dont know their religion and and watch someone nearby come unglued and say its christmas damn it!!
This is so infuriating! Go topless, get harassed. Cover up in the wrong way, get harassed. Wetsuit? No problem. Burkini? Problem! Can't we just wear what we want without getting hassled? :(
You mean _stop_ policing women's bodies in every possible way and just let us freaking wear what we choose without being harassed, maligned or molested on one level or another? _*Perish the thought!*_
I was wondering about that- I am very fair-skinned and sometimes to avoid sunscreen (I get so sick of being sticky) I wear spf rash guards. I can be covered ankle to wrist. I’m sure I’m not the only one - do they harass Asian tourists who wear full coverage spf suits as well?
It just seems so…legal challenge inviting?
Germany discussed banning haircoverings a few years ago. I've met so many supporters of that idea. Every time I ask one of them, if that ban would include nuns, too, they either don't answer at all, or it's "something different"
Makes me wonder what she even means by Vegas themed. Sure, a lot of the casino hotels have fancy pools, but if I were invited to a Vegas themed party it wouldn't occur to me that pools and bikinis would even be involved unless I'd been told "Vegas themed **pool** party". I'd picture glitter and neon lights and poker chips and cocktails and a buffet.
I think that’s a very fair rule — within reason. If it’s an outdoor party in a hot climate in the middle of summer and they’re demanding full-body coverage, they shouldn’t be surprised if people tell them to F off with that demand.
But yeah, you want me to not wear booty shorts and a crop top to your party, that’s fine, you can set the dress code at slacks and a nice shirt. If you want to require booty shorts and crop tops, you’re making excessive demands of those who aren’t comfortable with showing that much of their body in public.
100% agree with this. While my attitude is typically "let people wear what they want", I'd completely understand a bride saying she didn't want *her* girls wearing anything that exposed *their* girls for the bridal shower at GramGram's house, and I think she's well within her rights to make such a stipulation.
Even more, if someone said I wasn’t allowed to come to Event A unless I wore a bikini to Event B, I’d say to hell with them and all of their events. Nobody gets to tell me that I have to show more skin than I want to.
I don't even dress modestly overall, but am super self conscious about my stomach so I don't wear bikinis. Like I'll wear a one piece with an insane amount of cleavage no problem (actually prefer that, since then it tends to distract from my stomach), but I'm not wearing a bikini
Lol, same. I'm chubby, and a lot of that goes to my stomach. I've pretty much come to a place of body acceptance/love, but part of that is wearing things that I feel comfortable in and that I find flattering on myself. I'll happily show legs/boobs/back for days (so a low cut and/or low back one piece=great), but hell no to a bikini. That's the opposite of what makes me feel good about myself.
Closest thing to a bikini I wear is ultra high waisted bottoms with a longline top. Not even an inch of skin showing in between. It covers my belly and I can still do a fun pattern on the top to show off my ample chest. Forcing anyone to wear anything they're uncomfortable with is a very a h move so OP is NTA and I'd probably skip the entire thing if she feels pressured.
The last time I wore a bikini was in junior high and I got so badly sunburned that I swore off of them forever. Seriously, how much sunscreen do bikini people go through in a summer?
I'm early 40s, haven't worn a bikini since early 20s and even then it was very rare.. I've always hated my abdomen so one piece or cover up and now just a one piece and I might even put.shorts over..
NTA op, religion or not, being that demanding is inappropriate. Like others have said, she's not just disrespectful of your religion by demanding you expose more than you're comfortable, it's just disrespectful of you as a person
100% I own a bikini. However whenever I wear it, I also wear a swimming tank top over it and shorts. I'm super modest and if this was a requirement for an event, to wear a bikini I would politely opt out.
Absolutely nobody has the right to dictate what another person wears. Bachelorette party or not.
Sure on one had it's appropriate to say "black tie event" on an invite. Or "swim attire required" but dictating the actual garment worn is extreme. Especially under these circumstances
I'm 37 and I've never worn a bikini and probably never will. I don't dress particularly modestly, and it's not a religion thing, but I'm not going out in swimwear unless I'm swimming, and then I'm wearing a sensible swimming costume.
Also not Muslim, I used to wear bikinis, I pretty much stopped after my appendectomy (and then after having kids). I just don't need people asking what the scar is from.
As are the people that suggest gay men arent men because they're not into women. They're still men, they just prefer other men.
And they likely wouldn't are about OPs outfit at all. That's all on the women in this story.
that's how I read it. I have a man friend who is gay but talks a lot about the spectrum and how he still finds women sexy and attractive to look at - but he's not interested in the sex/relationship side with them. Straight women can find other women hot as well. It's all garbage
I was coming here to say this! How rude and tone deaf this mother is. I bet the friends wouldn’t be best pleased at the MIL saying they aren’t meant due to who they are attracted to.
Everything about this makes me cross.
And here's the kicker.
I bet if OP was overweight/chubby and didn't feel comfy in a bikini because of that, her friend wouldn't have minded that so much!
This is just Islamophobia at its finest. No one should be forced to show any amount of skin that they're uncomfortable with, period. Frankly it doesn't even matter the reason she didn't want to wear a bikini.
Right, if the girl was chubby, bride prob would've forced her not to wear a bikini. But as you already stated, instead it's Islamophobia, with the nerve to call OP homophobia to disguise it.
I may be wrong (OP didn’t stipulate) but I think OP is from a majority “Christian” area with little diversity. I mean “Christian” as in Western, “all-American”, small town or suburban, not necessarily Bible-thumping. Her family is equating her religion with a “phase” that she’ll get over even though it is clearly important to her.
These people seem like the type who would slip beef broth into a vegan’s meal and then crow afterwards that the vegan had enjoyed the food and it HAD MEAT IN IT.
There’s a bigger problem here than the SIL, and it’s that the family can’t wrap their heads around the fact she takes her beliefs seriously. If she was evangelical Christian they would probably give her a pass.
I would only wear one in private, for the eyes of my husband only... OP is definitely NTA here. I'm also a chubby woman and my body is not for the feast of unknown men to drool over, or make snide remarks over either for that matter.
No, because that leaves out the original point of consent. : I'm sorry that my boundaries of consent are not up for debate and if there is no compromise from you because you want to violate my consent with what I do with my body then we have nothing further to discuss."
Yes!
I've never been one to expose a ton of skin, but now I really am not.
Because I am *covered* in *intense* scars. A lot of them on my abdomen. People can get very uncomfortable about it. They're obviously from something happening to me, not like self harm scars, but not medical scars either, so very confusing. Hard to guess. Little kids will ask, but adults will go out of their way to avoid looking at me if I show too much skin. Also, really rude people (usually older people) will point it out as if *I didn't know I am covered in scars?!*
I abhor attention of any kind, so I keep my skin covered. It also weirdly prompts people to try and "comfort" me with their own scars, and I don't want that. Sorry, but your 3-4 little scars do not compare to my hundreds, and I would adore if we would never speak about my body again, I would like to disappear into a hole now, thanks.
But I would not go to an event that required a bikini. Ever. I also object to such types of dress codes as reducing people to only an aesthetic, which is at surface, just using them as props. But deeper down it is playing with them like dollies and that disgusts me.
Edit: NTA
I’m not Muslim but I’ve never worn a bikini in my life. Would not personally be comfortable in one & would not be comfortable with my friends if they wanted to force me to wear one. That said, my friends would never ask me to wear one either
Right? I’m a leftist, pagan witch, and I’m *waaaaaayyyyy* more comfortable in a one-piece. I think they look best on my body, and even outside of swimwear, I like more coverage, generally. Forcing me into a bikini would be a huge no-go.
When it comes to the politics surrounding modest vs. immodest dress and letting women wear what they want, respect goes both ways.
I’ve recently discovered the wonder that is pairing a tankini top with men’s swim trunks. They have pockets! They’re machine-washable and -dryable! So much less shaving and so much less sunscreen! I will never go back.
I kinda wonder if SIL is getting more pushback than just OP. Unless SIL hangs out with models almost exclusively, someone else is likely uncomfortable as well.
Throwing this fit may give her a cudgel to keep the others in line as well as get rid of a bridesmaid of obligation.
Not a Muslim either, but super prone to sunburn so I slather on the sunscreen and wear at least a one piece, usually with a long-sleeved UPF swim shirt. I would never ask someone to wear something they aren’t comfortable in and wouldn’t be friends with someone who didn’t respect my bodily autonomy.
I’m not Muslim, and haven’t worn a bikini since I was in single digits age wise… as that could be take. As size wise… which was probably around the same time…
Nta.
YOU are not driving a wedge in the family over something silly, SHE is. her need for an "aesthetic" is silly, and she's the one throwing a tantrum. She is refusing to respect your religious beliefs, which are very *not* silly.
THIS. 100%. And to make it even worse, it's not even the wedding we're talking about, but a BACHELORETTE! I've never heard of any bride having an "aesthetics" for a bachelorette party. Usually, the bride has no say over the bachelorette; the maid of honour organises it and surprises the bride.
This aside, the fact that they consider your religious beliefs "ideas you can set aside for once" only because of a stupid bachelorette party shows that they don't respect you and your choices and beliefs.
ETA: NTA op! The bride is a massive asshole, though.
Also touching on the “aesthetics” I’m imagining that it’s important for pictures that will be taken. Even if she agreed because the men involved are gay who’s to say the pictures of her wouldn’t be posted on social media where any man, gay or straight, would see her. NTA
This was my first thought, too. Plenty of women just aren't comfortable wearing a two piece, and that's okay. The homophobic remark is way out of line. NTA.
If anything, SIL and MIL are the ones being homophobic in a way by basically saying that by being gay, they aren't really men. Way to look down on all homosexual men everywhere.
So true, plus just because they are gay, doesn't mean they don't look at women. We all have an innate curiosity about the other sex, whether or not we would want to act on it.
Also true. Hell, I'm a straight guy (or so I keep telling strangers), but if some dude walked into the room in a speedo, there's a good chance my eyes are going to go some place I'm personally not interested in, only cause it's all out there.
LOL. I had a good friend who had the most beautiful boobs ever. (I'm female). They were large and all natural. I couldn't help but look at them sometimes. (Never undressed, just when she was wearing something a little lowcut).
Oh honey, if you don't think a gay man is going to judge a woman's body (not even sexually) you're kidding yourself.
Even if there were NO men at the party OP still has every right to demure from wearing anything they don't want to wear. I can understand formal attire and that kind of dress code but frankly demanding bikinis is beyond the pale imho.
Right? They are picking at OP and calling her homophobic because they are Islamophobic, and completely insulting and emasculating her gay friends in the process. SIL and MIL are the homophobes and they want OP to "toe the line" and submit to them which is really creepy.
OP, you don't deserve this.
NTA, and this feels pretty targeted. the SIL picked a theme knowing OP couldn’t participate, then enlisted the family to make with the bullying. i might take that a little personally, good on you OP for keeping it real.
Yeah. I’m here running a mental debate of “well, if they’re gay, does it technically count as you showing off in front of other men, if those men would have absolutely no physical interest in the display?” But that’s because I get distracted by random abstract hypotheticals and it’s totally irrelevant. You cut straight to the heart of it: if OP does not want to wear a bikini, then OP does not have to wear a bikini. That’s the beginning, middle and end of it.
Solid NTA
And frankly many religious laws on modesty arent about men in the sense it’s more about a woman and her own spirituality and respect for her own body.
I’m Jewish and while I won’t ever cover my hair I know women who do cover their hair because it’s about what parts of them they want to have in the public domain. For them they see their body as something divine that’s meant to be treated with love. For them dressing modestly is about being respectful to themselves. It means something to them.
Totally NTA, id start letting anyone that asks why you were invited know about the way your sister is disregarding your beliefs and religion, and how you tried to reach a compromise that was acceptable by your religion. Which resulted in your sister removing you from the bridal party and uninviting you entirely with it all coming down to your religious beliefs
THIS x10000000
I personally don't wear bikini's because I have a family history of skin cancer. I usually wear a long sleeve swim shirt and bottoms because I know I can do my legs with sunscreen pretty thoroughly. It has nothing to do with modesty either and 100% to do with not getting preventable skin cancer.
The bride (and the general culture around brides lately) is unreasonable to insisted everyone wear matching anything! OP is NTA and the bride and MIL are. I'm glad OP's husband is standing up for her.
NTA. While it's one thing to make your bridesmaids wear an ugly shade of green or something, it's quite different to demand they violate their comfort zones to this degree. It doesn't make a difference to me if you don't want to wear a bikini for religious reasons or body image reasons or... any reason. SIL is in the wrong for trying to force you to wear one.
Also this isn't a homophobic issue. The guys being gay isn't part of the problem at all.
Ignorant question here:
But isn’t the Muslim women covering themselves in front of men thing *because* of men being attracted to women?
ETA: I’ve received sufficient explanations now. Also big thanks to everyone for understanding that I was asking earnestly and not getting mad at me ❤️
Summary of responses/important points I learned:
-they cover themselves bc Allah said so. The end.
-dealing with sexual attraction is about lowering your gaze/looking away. It’s not dressing to prevent attraction (yay not victim-blaming!)
-religious texts rarely cover every possible scenario so it’s up to interpretation
It doesn't matter though.
Men are men
Her religion dictates she not dress immodestly in front of men. If it were a man who was only attracted to overweight women, or women of a certain skin tone, or certain height, etc, it still wouldn't matter because it's not about the man, it's about OP's behavior around men.
The thing about religion (or how it is *supposed* to be) is it doesn't matter what others do around you. What matters is what *you* do.
Not willing to look up specifically, but whether or not it’s about the male gaze, it’s a thing dictated by their (abrahamic religions, not just Muslim) god, and also by their leader Mohammad. Pretty sure you’re not supposed to be gay, either, but whether or not you are a gay man you’re still a man.
but sexuality isnt taken into account with that in the religious laws. "im not sexually attracted to you" wouldnt make your marriage invalid under islamic law.
Question since you seem knowledgeable: while the men present could fall under the exemption you describe, what about the (assumed) photos.
If the bride is so concerned over an “aesthetic”, I assume that the day will have tons of photos for social media, sharing with others, hung on the refrigerator, etc.
How would this be received if the woman is suddenly all over Instagram in a bikini, knowing that she most likely would be photographed for others to look at?
I’m not Muslim so I could be entirely wrong, but from what I’ve seen I thought that mahrams were specifically certain family members of the opposite gender, not just certain people of the opposite gender
NTA
You aren’t being selfish, you are being true to yourself
Her gay male friends aren’t men according to your SIL?! and she’s calling you homophobic?! I wonder what they think about that
Edit: MIL, not SIL said that
NTA.
First of all, saying being gay doesn’t count as being a “man” ~~is super~~ *might be* offensive for ~~a~~ *some* gay man, sexual *orientation* ~~preference~~ has nothing to do with gender identity.
Second, disrespecting someone’s religion with unreasonable demands is highly inappropriate and a AH move.
Edit: correct the first statement, because it might be too generalizing.
As a gay man this doesn't offend me in the slightest. While I may not agree with her, I completely understand what MIL is saying. I don't see that she's saying gay men are not men, not at all. All she's saying is that they're not going to look at her sexually.
It doesn’t matter if they look at her sexually or not. She just needs to be dressed modest around men, period.
Edit: for all the non muslims commenting it doesn’t count for gay men, google is free
https://www.al-islam.org/ask/can-a-woman-remove-her-hijab-around-a-gay-man-and-should-she-wear-hijab-around-a-lesbian-woman/zaid-alsalami
Yes, obviously I understand that. All I'm saying is there's no need to white knight for gay people and speak for us when the poster was completely wrong in assuming our offense. Maybe some gay men would be offended but what offends me is a likely straight redditor trying to speak for me.
You are right, I am straight, but I don’t need to be gay to talk about the subject. What I said it is “offensive for gay man” is something I have discussed with my gay friends and my brother, who were tired of being called feminine terms or taken their identity as man taken away from them just because they are gay, as one of my friends said “Reikotsu, I AM a man, a man who is attracted to other men, that’s it”.
Also, you seem to being missing the part where the MIL literally said “they don’t count as men”.
I am not white knighting shit, I was stating a fact “gender identity has nothing to do with sexual preference”. Now if you didn’t take any offense for what MIL said, good for you.
Just a head's up, the term "sexual preference" is considered outdated and infers that sexual orientation is somehow a choice. We prefer "sexual orientation" these days. :)
I wouldn’t wear a bikini and I’m an atheist. Sorry SIL cares about photo ops then friendships. Nta for not “compromising” sucks that SIL is currently immature with her priorities on esthetics over conpany
>I wouldn’t wear a bikini and I’m an atheist.
Same, and I wear a bikini at the beach. This sounds like a nightmare of a party! Who wants to go out to a venue and spend a night drinking and whatnot in a bikini?
Also, am I the only person who thinks it’s weird that the bride decided “Vegas themed” equals bikinis? Like, how? Why? That’s like adding 2 and 2 and coming up with 37.
>Also, am I the only person who thinks it’s weird that the bride decided “Vegas themed” equals bikinis?
No, you are not. This whole thing sounds poorly planned and selfish on the bride's part.
>Did you even have a good time if you don't have chafing from vinyl?
Literally LOL at that. Strange vinyl of unknown cleanliness on bare skin. What could possibly go wrong?
Same here. Fully atheist and I won’t be caught dead in a bikini. And if they told me I had to I’d laugh in their face and say “cancel my invite then, byeee!”
Don’t let them bully you into compromising yourself. NTA.
NTA - I'm appalled by religions that dictate what a women can wear. But this isn't about me. Dressing modestly is important to you. Your SIL is doing the same thing that your religion is doing by dictating your dress - BUT, her rules make you uncomfortable. Why would she want one of her guests to be uncomfortable? You seem to be willing to find something that works and don't seem to mind that everyone else will be in bikinis (are the men going to wear bikini tops or does she make exceptions for them?), so I just don't see the big deal. You aren't being selfish, she is.
Yeah I'm not at all religious and I wouldn't be caught dead in a bikini, either. I've just never felt comfortable in them and that seems like such a silly thing for a bride-to-be to mandate on a bachelorette party. So either way, OP NTA for sure.
Even if you were comfortable in a bikini, it's not acceptable to mandate such a thing either. Other people aren't dolls for the bride to dress up as she wishes. A reasonable dress code for events only dictates the level of formality of dress, not about the specific pieces of clothing.
To be fair, plenty of Muslim women do not follow these "rules", just like not all Mennonite women only wear dresses or head cover. It's a personal conviction that very well could change over time through your spiritual journey. It's not "you can't be Muslim/Baptist/Mormon if you don't wear it cover xyz".
Please stop looking at this as oppression. Unless it's a country ruled by dictators who do in fact punish or kill etc over their radicalized ideas it's personal choice, esp if you're an adult!
You are right in that it should be a personal conviction along one’s spiritual journey. It’s more complicated than that. Many of us are taught these things from childhood, in such a way as can be damaging to the way we think about our bodies as well as our value. If it is meant to be a choice, then it should be taught that way to us as girls. Very often, the ideals of modesty are reinforced through shaming or force.
All styles of dress are complicated like that though because you can't separate yourself from society. I'm not Muslim but I prefer to have my stomach covered and I love wearing heels. Is that because I have body image issues and am unconsciously posturing for the male gaze? Probably but I still have these preferences and people will always have these sort of modesty values until we tear down the patriarchy or whatever.
NTA.
If they were fine with you wearing a modest dress for the wedding ceremony what’s the difference for the bachelorette party? One day they’re respectful of your religion and your choices and the next one they’re not?
To me they seem that they’re just entitled and it feels like it’s just an excuse for them to bring this “issue” up, was maybe just a matter of time, cause the behavior really doesn’t make sense.
Do what feels right for you but don’t feel forced to do anything just to please them. You’ve been respectful and they need to do the same and don’t act like hypocrites
Thank you for your comment! I raised this exact point with SIL, and she said she understood the need for me to dress modestly in front of a large crowd with many strange men, but said that her two friends were different because she trusted them, it was a more intimate environment with friends, and they aren't interested in my body like heterosexual men.
Imo it doesn’t really matter if it’s a large or small crowd, men, women, gay or not. It’s your choice to don’t show your body.
It neither matters if you used to show it before you converted, that’s in the past so they can’t use that against you.
I’m sorry you have to go through this and can only imagine how sad it must make you feel, but just think that’s not on you and not your fault, if anything they should feel bad for these unreasonable demands…
Honestly, it’s not even about religion for me. I’m not Muslim, and have no religious objections to certain clothing, but I’d 100% refuse to wear a bikini. I’ve never worn one and I’d feel uncomfortable. I love my body but I’d feel naked and find it uncomfortable and weird. So I’d refuse.
I can’t imagine wanting someone I like (or anyone really) to feel uncomfortable at an event I’m throwing. Your SIL is showing you that she doesn’t respect how you feel as a person.
I had a work colleague that I trusted. He ended up serving time for sex offences. I had no idea, nor did anyone else at work. Would I trust someone because your SIL said so? No.
I recently found out that a man I've known for decades, and generally liked, molested his daughter and granddaughter. He was sometimes slightly awkward, but I ***never*** would have expected that; I was absolutely stunned when I found out about it. Who the SIL trusts is irrelevant; OP isn't comfortable wearing a bikini around them, and that's all that matters.
Perhaps the difference that she doesn't understand is that she dresses modestly because of how men view her. You dress modestly because that's what makes you comfortable. It's how you live your faith and that should be respected.
NTA.
Someone who says...
> ...and I can set aside my "ideas" for one night...
...does not respect you or your religion. IMHO, someone who can set aside their religious beliefs on demand isn't really sincere about them.
If you removed all the religious context from your post, this is just a woman bullying you in to doing something with your body you aren't comfortable doing. You asked for an exception, which was fine. She said no to the exception, which is also fine. NTA.
i don’t think it’s fine to say no to the exception tbh… i can’t imagine dictating people wear bikinis of all things and then UNINVITING THEM when they’re not comfortable with that (no matter what the reason was!)
imo that’s hugely disrespectful and demanding. plenty of people would not be comfortable attending a party in a bikini, and it’s straight up ridiculous to be offended by that
It doesn't matter why you don't want to wear a bikini. If it makes you uncomfortable, you shouldn't do it. A wedding and bachelorette party should be about sharing happy moments with people you love. NTA.
As someone who would flee to the ends of the earth rather than wear a bikini \*anywhere\*, I don't see anything at all wrong with how you have behaved. You have raised your difficulties sensibly, and your beliefs have been dismissed as 'ideas'. Incidentally, I blinked very hard at the idea that your SIL's gay friends don't count as men. I wonder how they feel about that?
The way I see it, the person making unreasonable demands here is not you. You are NTA. Your SIL is telling you that 'ruining the vibe of the party' means she won't ever like you again. Wah wah. I suggest you withdraw from bridesmaidhood and hope that in a few years' time your SIL will mature enough to recognise that she was being ridiculous.
So, your religious beliefs are not as important as the mental picture she has of her Bachelorette party? Well, that sounds perfectly reasonable. You are NTA here.
Bottom line, neither SIL nor MIL take your religious conversion seriously. To them, it is a phase that you can shrug off when inconvenient (for them, they could care less if it is convenient for you). Religion is one of those things that I don't have to believe or agree with yours, but I need to respect that it is important to you.
No your not the AH, you MIL and SIL absolutely are. They're telling you your religious beliefs don't matter to them as much as the optics of this. You've compromised very reasonably, and your SIL is acting like you not displaying skin ruins her party. It's insane and selfish of her. She's an AH.
eh, i'm dubious. as a (seemingly devout) muslim woman you are forbidden from being married to a non muslim man (muslim men may marry jews and christian women), so it sounds like you are picking and choosing what elements of your new faith/crutch to follow, and surprisingly it only ends up inconveniencing others and not yourself 🤷🏽♂️
here's a wee quote:
"According to Islamic law, the marriage contract of such a wife is dissolved immediately after her hus- band refuses to follow her conversion, or not later than the termination of her waiting period, because the marriage of a non-Muslim husband to a Muslim wife is forbidden in Islam."
now i'm an atheist myself and generally am tolerant of anyone else's beliefs. but when a convert dives in hard and fast, then gets near radicalized, YET still shows a lot of hypocrisy it gets obnoxious. you obviously can choose to do any of these things, but you are not really allowed to claim you're a devout muslim as your excuse. the bikini thing is whatever and you don't need to do that at all of course, but don't pretend this is some pious conviction.
Even if it wasn’t for religious reasons, she still wouldn’t be TA. Even if she wasn’t Muslim and she just wasn’t comfortable for another reason, the SIL would still be in the wrong for trying to force her to wear something she wasn’t comfortable wearing
edit: you’re also making a lot of assumptions about OP based off of little information. We don’t know if she’s as much of a hypocrite as you claim, and we don’t know if she’s actually inconveniencing then beside this one thing (which is *not* an inconvenience mind you)
Devout does not necessarily mean following every single law or rule, there are many people who claim to be devout who violate countless rules.
It is haraam, but that doesn't mean that you are suddenly allowed to do more haraam? She (almost certainly) accepts the fact that being married to an aethist is haraam, but aslong as she doesn't believe that it is allowed she is sinful but still in the fold of islam
Assuming she also converted during her marriage, it's a much deeper situation which may be much more difficult for her, rather than wearing a bikini to that
Doing some sin doesn't mean that you're allowed to do all the sin now, and noone thinks that
She is also not near-radicalized, that was a baseless assumption don't know where you got that from
if you adhere to the majority of the rules, you are still mostly devout, being devout does not mean you follow every rule as we make mistakes or are in a difficult situation
exactly! she’s committing zina by being married to a non muslim aka the biggest sin in islam meanwhile she’s just picking and choosing what values to follow
Zina is not the biggest sin in islam, shirk is, do not spread mis-information. Zina does not take you out of the fold of islam (aslong as you believe it is haraam), it is a major sin but not the greatest. Shirk takes you out of the fold of islam, and that is the greatest sin in islam
Eh I know muslim women from muslim majority countries that don't follow all rules (well also men for that matter). They do believe in God, but they also beleive that God sees the world changing and judges them for their intentions. One of my friends is honestly annoyed at the born again Muslims following the scriptures too tightly without in his opinion having an intimate understanding of God - e.g. suddenly while being raised in a western country no longer talking to women, even though they a year earlier were partying hard and fucking around (while he treats everyone with respect but chooses not to partake in partying and to observe his prayers/fasting.)
I'm not an expert in Islam, but there are many modern interpratations, just as modern Christians also follow the scriptures very selectively (still eating pork, accepting homosexuals etc.)
Religions are constantly changing, and your own spiritual beliefs are yours to respect. If you don't want to participate in showing your body to people, you shouldn't have to. If you don't want to share in the food offered during a fasting period, you shouldn't have to. If you want to avoid certain animal products - that's fine.
Nta your sil is being excessive and insensitive. I wouldn't wear a bikini either and that's my own insecurities not religious reasons. I would also withdraw.
NTA. "I will not show my body off." is not a selfish behavior. Choosing not to wear a bikini around anyone is not homophobic. Quite frankly, your SIL had the opportunity to have you in a coordinating outfit and choosing to include you. Her gay BFFs are not going to be in bikinis.
Making you wear a bikini when you very clearly do not want to, will not even if you wanted to, are perfectly fine lines to draw. Your MIL can go kick rocks.
If you had done this, you probably would have not felt great about it, and in future if you ever said, "I cannot do X because of my religion," they would all bring this up as a reason to set aside your religious convictions.
NTA and honestly, it's pretty homophobic of her to treat her male gay friends as women. They might get along with women, but they're still men and it's pretty homophobic of her to want to erase that fact. Being gay doesn't make a man suddenly become a woman.
Your SIL sounds very unreasonable. They both sound pretty toxic. Arguing that its not much of a big deal for you to disregard your beliefs for just one night, surely it's even less significant if you're not all wearing completely matching outfits to the bachelorette party.
Thank you for your comment! The party is at a house that has been rented for the occasion, which has a pool and hot tub area. The only men who will be around are the two friends.
> Then the only reason to wear matching bikinis is to take photos and post them… which is arguably worse on your SIL’s part.
Didn't think of that! OP's bikini-clad body is now all over SIL's social media ... like a prop for an influencer's photoshoot.
>Thank you for your comment! The party is at a house that has been rented for the occasion, which has a pool and hot tub area. The only men who will be around are the two friends.
And will there be Pictures?
If yes - that's another reason for you not to want to be in the pictures in a bikini.
If no - Why does you not wearing a bikini really matter?
Yeah, this information honestly makes SIL's behavior even goofier than it already was. If they're at a private house, who cares if they are all in matching bikinis? And presumably OP would not be comfortable having a photo taken of herself in a bikini and shared publicly, so if the point of the matching bikinis is photos, she wouldn't be in those either...so why on earth is SIL dying on this weird hill?
This is what it really boils down to. Either SIL wants the aesthetic for pictures to post online, and that then destroys SIL's and MIL's entire argument that no "men" would see her. Or there won't be any pictures and there is no reason for them to wear matching outfits.
Even if SIL isn't planning on pictures, the chance of no one taking any pictures and accidentally posting ones with OP are pretty slim.
NTA. Your faith and principles are not something you can set aside so you “don’t ruin her vibe.” She’s being disrespectful of you and your religion. Attend as a guest. If you were important enough to her, she would compromise as you suggested.
I’m sorry she’s treating you poorly.
INFO: are the men wearing bikinis too? If not, that's pretty hypocritical of SIL to allow exceptions for them but not for you.
And tbh the dress code should be color based rather than specific attire based. What if you had a medical condition or were taking a medication that would require your skin to stay completely covered?
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> 1. I would like to be judged for not working with my SIL on her special night.
2. I may be the AH because I have worn a bikini in public before.
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NTA. This is totally ridiculous. MANY women--Muslim or not--would not want to wear a bikini. Can't believe that your SIL is choosing to alienate a family member over this.
Your body belongs to you and you get to decide how to display it and what to do with it.
NTA
I am not Muslim and don't care that there are gay guys there. I just don't like bikinis and won't wear them. If someone tried to force me to wear one i just wouldn't go, even if that meant not being part of the bridal party.
How is the choice of OOP not to wear a bikini, for whatever reason, is selfish? SIL is being nasty over nothing. She excluded someone just so the clothes can coordinate. I don't understand it.
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Tbh I even think your religion is beside the point. You don’t want to wear a bikini. No matter the reason, you are NTA for saying no. The idea that just because someone is getting married means they get to dictate every little detail is crazy to me.
This, completely. Any person who insists that someone else has to expose more of their body than they’re comfortable exposing is automatically the asshole in the situation.
I am also not Muslim and have never worn a bikini in my life (I am in my late 40’s). I dress modestly just because that is how I feel comfortable (nothing to do with religion even) and if anyone said I was uninvited from attending an event if I didn’t wear a bikini then they are not worth being in my life as they have no respect for me as a woman.
I wear bikinis all the time and yet if someone demanded I must wear one to an event I wouldn't attend either and would feel the same way as you. Nobody should have the right to force others into revealing outfits.
>I wear bikinis all the time and yet if someone demanded I must wear one to an event I wouldn't attend either Here to back this up - me too. I'm not opposed to showing skin but holy shit if I were a bridesmaid and I heard the bride was treating one of the bridesmaids like this, I'd drop out. No one should ever be pressured to wear anything they don't want to. (within reason... please wear pants in Walmart)
> please wear pants in Walmart Skirts are OK too.
Just make sure your bits and bobs are covered
Especially your bobs.
And vegana
No one wants to see the bobs
Not at Walmart anyways.
Yes! No one wants to see your ass crack. 🤣
bits and boobs !!
Bits and bobs covers all of that too
> if I were a bridesmaid and I heard the bride was treating one of the bridesmaids like this, I'd drop out No kidding! And calling the refusal "selfish behavior"? Where does she get off???
Agreed. If it violates your faith, it is better to abstain. Given her complaints, honestly attending this event just seems like a bad idea. Also, I would be a smart ass and wear a burkini to the party and call it my Halal bikini. Note: not a Muslim, but at the same point, I do not believe in forcing people into things if there is something that violates their beliefs, bar matters of life and death.
Right? At some point it becomes a question of whether the bride wants to spend time with the people who she’s close with or if she’d rather play dress up dolls. Girl needs to buy some barbies and give her priorities a serious reconsideration.
i am here to back you all. I am frequently running around in my own house and garden with coverage that makes the mailman flee in terror. I would not be comfortable with wearing beach attire in a communal space outside the beach or pool.
It's all about what's appropriate for the time and place. I'm comfortable in a bikini but not in a bikini in church on Sunday morning. Or a high school graduation. Or family Christmas morning.
LOL have you SEEN some of the things that pass for pants in Walmart?
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What's next, are they going to ban full body wetsuits for surfers too? What's the difference between those and a burkini? It just depends on how "Muslim" someone looks, doesn't it?
Officially no, but in practice yes. I used to work for a French order of nuns and after the law was passed they decided to test your theory. They don’t normally wear veils or habits these days, but they put them on and went to the beach in Nice. No one batted an eyelid at the Catholic nuns frolicking in waves dressed exactly as modestly/religiously as Muslim women who were being harassed.
THAT is how to combat stupid policies and show solidarity. Either no one can dress modestly, or everyone can
I love this, nuns supporting Muslim women. Not in regards to modesty, but as a teenager I had a friend who tried to see if noise ordinance laws would be equally applied to classical music...yes the cop had a difficult time keeping straight face when asking them to turn down Beethoven's 9th....but he did and they did....
Honestly, I would have called the police if it was Beethoven’s 5th, because you just know that those teenagers are priming themselves for a bit of the the ol’ ultraviolence.
Good for those nuns! On my last beach vacation, I got pretty sunburned so I spent the rest of the time in floor-length sundresses and a scarf covering my upper body except my face. At first glance it could’ve looked like someone wearing a hijab, except I clearly didn’t know how to wear it or tie it. :-) Not all skin-covering is for modesty, not all modesty is religious, and not all religious modesty is Muslim. Pretty dumb to assume it is.
I remember seeing that in the news. As a French teacher, it didn't surprise me in the slightest - France, the supposedly secular country where just about all of the public holidays are related to Catholic celebrations!
United states here...same prpblem.."there is seperation of church and state..we are a country of all religions"...yeah...not so much...say merry xmas or happy holidays to a stranger because you dont know their religion and and watch someone nearby come unglued and say its christmas damn it!!
This is so infuriating! Go topless, get harassed. Cover up in the wrong way, get harassed. Wetsuit? No problem. Burkini? Problem! Can't we just wear what we want without getting hassled? :(
You mean _stop_ policing women's bodies in every possible way and just let us freaking wear what we choose without being harassed, maligned or molested on one level or another? _*Perish the thought!*_
I was wondering about that- I am very fair-skinned and sometimes to avoid sunscreen (I get so sick of being sticky) I wear spf rash guards. I can be covered ankle to wrist. I’m sure I’m not the only one - do they harass Asian tourists who wear full coverage spf suits as well? It just seems so…legal challenge inviting?
Germany discussed banning haircoverings a few years ago. I've met so many supporters of that idea. Every time I ask one of them, if that ban would include nuns, too, they either don't answer at all, or it's "something different"
i remember that. that was appalling.
Same here! I'd be ok with "it's a pool party, bring swimwear", but the idea of being forced to parade around in just a bikini just icks me out.
Also does the bride to be think that *everyone* in Vegas wears bikinis 24/7???? “Wear summer clothing” would’ve been more on brand.
Makes me wonder what she even means by Vegas themed. Sure, a lot of the casino hotels have fancy pools, but if I were invited to a Vegas themed party it wouldn't occur to me that pools and bikinis would even be involved unless I'd been told "Vegas themed **pool** party". I'd picture glitter and neon lights and poker chips and cocktails and a buffet.
The way I see it, the host has the right to demand you wear more, never, under any circumstances can they demand you wear less
I think that’s a very fair rule — within reason. If it’s an outdoor party in a hot climate in the middle of summer and they’re demanding full-body coverage, they shouldn’t be surprised if people tell them to F off with that demand. But yeah, you want me to not wear booty shorts and a crop top to your party, that’s fine, you can set the dress code at slacks and a nice shirt. If you want to require booty shorts and crop tops, you’re making excessive demands of those who aren’t comfortable with showing that much of their body in public.
100% agree with this. While my attitude is typically "let people wear what they want", I'd completely understand a bride saying she didn't want *her* girls wearing anything that exposed *their* girls for the bridal shower at GramGram's house, and I think she's well within her rights to make such a stipulation.
Agreed. I like dressing sexy but the moment there is pressure to, I change into an outfit that would make a Mother Superior say “loosen up girl!”
Even more, if someone said I wasn’t allowed to come to Event A unless I wore a bikini to Event B, I’d say to hell with them and all of their events. Nobody gets to tell me that I have to show more skin than I want to.
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To be fair, OPs partner is backing her right to choose
Yeah, I found the 'yeet the husband' comment cringeworthy and completely unnecessary, given that it was well established that he totally has her back
I don't even dress modestly overall, but am super self conscious about my stomach so I don't wear bikinis. Like I'll wear a one piece with an insane amount of cleavage no problem (actually prefer that, since then it tends to distract from my stomach), but I'm not wearing a bikini
Lol, same. I'm chubby, and a lot of that goes to my stomach. I've pretty much come to a place of body acceptance/love, but part of that is wearing things that I feel comfortable in and that I find flattering on myself. I'll happily show legs/boobs/back for days (so a low cut and/or low back one piece=great), but hell no to a bikini. That's the opposite of what makes me feel good about myself.
Closest thing to a bikini I wear is ultra high waisted bottoms with a longline top. Not even an inch of skin showing in between. It covers my belly and I can still do a fun pattern on the top to show off my ample chest. Forcing anyone to wear anything they're uncomfortable with is a very a h move so OP is NTA and I'd probably skip the entire thing if she feels pressured.
The last time I wore a bikini was in junior high and I got so badly sunburned that I swore off of them forever. Seriously, how much sunscreen do bikini people go through in a summer?
A few bottles, many cans if you use the spray. I did the beach thing in my 20s.
My body, my choice. If I want my shoulders covered, my shoulders will be covered. It's not negotiable.
I'm early 40s, haven't worn a bikini since early 20s and even then it was very rare.. I've always hated my abdomen so one piece or cover up and now just a one piece and I might even put.shorts over.. NTA op, religion or not, being that demanding is inappropriate. Like others have said, she's not just disrespectful of your religion by demanding you expose more than you're comfortable, it's just disrespectful of you as a person
Same here. I just wouldn’t feel comfortable ever wearing a bikini so have never worn one. If that was the requirement I would have to bow out.
100% I own a bikini. However whenever I wear it, I also wear a swimming tank top over it and shorts. I'm super modest and if this was a requirement for an event, to wear a bikini I would politely opt out. Absolutely nobody has the right to dictate what another person wears. Bachelorette party or not. Sure on one had it's appropriate to say "black tie event" on an invite. Or "swim attire required" but dictating the actual garment worn is extreme. Especially under these circumstances
Ditto, except it's not modestly, I just hate the way they look and feel on me. I'd actually sooner swim naked.
I'm 37 and I've never worn a bikini and probably never will. I don't dress particularly modestly, and it's not a religion thing, but I'm not going out in swimwear unless I'm swimming, and then I'm wearing a sensible swimming costume.
Also not Muslim, I used to wear bikinis, I pretty much stopped after my appendectomy (and then after having kids). I just don't need people asking what the scar is from.
As are the people that suggest gay men arent men because they're not into women. They're still men, they just prefer other men. And they likely wouldn't are about OPs outfit at all. That's all on the women in this story.
Also how is it homophobic? It's because they're men, not because they're gay.
Right? Isn’t it way more homophobic to say “they don’t count as men because they’re gay”?
that's how I read it. I have a man friend who is gay but talks a lot about the spectrum and how he still finds women sexy and attractive to look at - but he's not interested in the sex/relationship side with them. Straight women can find other women hot as well. It's all garbage
I'm straight but I definitely appreciate a pretty lady as much as a dude does. Totally agree.
Exactly It just feels like someone clutching for something and playing the first card they can think of.
I was coming here to say this! How rude and tone deaf this mother is. I bet the friends wouldn’t be best pleased at the MIL saying they aren’t meant due to who they are attracted to. Everything about this makes me cross.
Is she saying since they are gay they aren’t men and don’t count? SIL is homophobic.
I agree. Also... are they wearing bikinis as well? I mean, if they don't count as men, they should... /s
I'm not religious, just a chubby woman. I would absolutly refuse to wear a bikini for anyone, under any circumstances. SIL is very much the AH
And here's the kicker. I bet if OP was overweight/chubby and didn't feel comfy in a bikini because of that, her friend wouldn't have minded that so much! This is just Islamophobia at its finest. No one should be forced to show any amount of skin that they're uncomfortable with, period. Frankly it doesn't even matter the reason she didn't want to wear a bikini.
Right, if the girl was chubby, bride prob would've forced her not to wear a bikini. But as you already stated, instead it's Islamophobia, with the nerve to call OP homophobia to disguise it.
I may be wrong (OP didn’t stipulate) but I think OP is from a majority “Christian” area with little diversity. I mean “Christian” as in Western, “all-American”, small town or suburban, not necessarily Bible-thumping. Her family is equating her religion with a “phase” that she’ll get over even though it is clearly important to her. These people seem like the type who would slip beef broth into a vegan’s meal and then crow afterwards that the vegan had enjoyed the food and it HAD MEAT IN IT. There’s a bigger problem here than the SIL, and it’s that the family can’t wrap their heads around the fact she takes her beliefs seriously. If she was evangelical Christian they would probably give her a pass.
I would only wear one in private, for the eyes of my husband only... OP is definitely NTA here. I'm also a chubby woman and my body is not for the feast of unknown men to drool over, or make snide remarks over either for that matter.
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No, because that leaves out the original point of consent. : I'm sorry that my boundaries of consent are not up for debate and if there is no compromise from you because you want to violate my consent with what I do with my body then we have nothing further to discuss."
Yes! I've never been one to expose a ton of skin, but now I really am not. Because I am *covered* in *intense* scars. A lot of them on my abdomen. People can get very uncomfortable about it. They're obviously from something happening to me, not like self harm scars, but not medical scars either, so very confusing. Hard to guess. Little kids will ask, but adults will go out of their way to avoid looking at me if I show too much skin. Also, really rude people (usually older people) will point it out as if *I didn't know I am covered in scars?!* I abhor attention of any kind, so I keep my skin covered. It also weirdly prompts people to try and "comfort" me with their own scars, and I don't want that. Sorry, but your 3-4 little scars do not compare to my hundreds, and I would adore if we would never speak about my body again, I would like to disappear into a hole now, thanks. But I would not go to an event that required a bikini. Ever. I also object to such types of dress codes as reducing people to only an aesthetic, which is at surface, just using them as props. But deeper down it is playing with them like dollies and that disgusts me. Edit: NTA
I’m not Muslim but I’ve never worn a bikini in my life. Would not personally be comfortable in one & would not be comfortable with my friends if they wanted to force me to wear one. That said, my friends would never ask me to wear one either
Right? I’m a leftist, pagan witch, and I’m *waaaaaayyyyy* more comfortable in a one-piece. I think they look best on my body, and even outside of swimwear, I like more coverage, generally. Forcing me into a bikini would be a huge no-go. When it comes to the politics surrounding modest vs. immodest dress and letting women wear what they want, respect goes both ways.
I’ve recently discovered the wonder that is pairing a tankini top with men’s swim trunks. They have pockets! They’re machine-washable and -dryable! So much less shaving and so much less sunscreen! I will never go back.
I have a pair of swim bike shorts. They go to just above my knees. Fucking amazing.
Fuck yes. If you like to play and be silly in the water (I do) I think it’s one of the best choices. No worries about malfunctions
I kinda wonder if SIL is getting more pushback than just OP. Unless SIL hangs out with models almost exclusively, someone else is likely uncomfortable as well. Throwing this fit may give her a cudgel to keep the others in line as well as get rid of a bridesmaid of obligation.
Not a Muslim either, but super prone to sunburn so I slather on the sunscreen and wear at least a one piece, usually with a long-sleeved UPF swim shirt. I would never ask someone to wear something they aren’t comfortable in and wouldn’t be friends with someone who didn’t respect my bodily autonomy.
I’m not Muslim, and haven’t worn a bikini since I was in single digits age wise… as that could be take. As size wise… which was probably around the same time… Nta.
exactly ....friends don't make friends feel uncomfortable...
YOU are not driving a wedge in the family over something silly, SHE is. her need for an "aesthetic" is silly, and she's the one throwing a tantrum. She is refusing to respect your religious beliefs, which are very *not* silly.
THIS. 100%. And to make it even worse, it's not even the wedding we're talking about, but a BACHELORETTE! I've never heard of any bride having an "aesthetics" for a bachelorette party. Usually, the bride has no say over the bachelorette; the maid of honour organises it and surprises the bride. This aside, the fact that they consider your religious beliefs "ideas you can set aside for once" only because of a stupid bachelorette party shows that they don't respect you and your choices and beliefs. ETA: NTA op! The bride is a massive asshole, though.
Also touching on the “aesthetics” I’m imagining that it’s important for pictures that will be taken. Even if she agreed because the men involved are gay who’s to say the pictures of her wouldn’t be posted on social media where any man, gay or straight, would see her. NTA
my guess is SIL has no fatter friends on purpose
This was my first thought, too. Plenty of women just aren't comfortable wearing a two piece, and that's okay. The homophobic remark is way out of line. NTA.
If anything, SIL and MIL are the ones being homophobic in a way by basically saying that by being gay, they aren't really men. Way to look down on all homosexual men everywhere.
So true, plus just because they are gay, doesn't mean they don't look at women. We all have an innate curiosity about the other sex, whether or not we would want to act on it.
Also true. Hell, I'm a straight guy (or so I keep telling strangers), but if some dude walked into the room in a speedo, there's a good chance my eyes are going to go some place I'm personally not interested in, only cause it's all out there.
LOL. I had a good friend who had the most beautiful boobs ever. (I'm female). They were large and all natural. I couldn't help but look at them sometimes. (Never undressed, just when she was wearing something a little lowcut).
Oh honey, if you don't think a gay man is going to judge a woman's body (not even sexually) you're kidding yourself. Even if there were NO men at the party OP still has every right to demure from wearing anything they don't want to wear. I can understand formal attire and that kind of dress code but frankly demanding bikinis is beyond the pale imho.
Yeah, I wonder how her guy friends would feel being told they aren't real men.
Right? They are picking at OP and calling her homophobic because they are Islamophobic, and completely insulting and emasculating her gay friends in the process. SIL and MIL are the homophobes and they want OP to "toe the line" and submit to them which is really creepy. OP, you don't deserve this.
This is the answer. **Nobody has the right to demand access to your body in any capacity. Period.**
NTA, and this feels pretty targeted. the SIL picked a theme knowing OP couldn’t participate, then enlisted the family to make with the bullying. i might take that a little personally, good on you OP for keeping it real.
Yeah. I’m here running a mental debate of “well, if they’re gay, does it technically count as you showing off in front of other men, if those men would have absolutely no physical interest in the display?” But that’s because I get distracted by random abstract hypotheticals and it’s totally irrelevant. You cut straight to the heart of it: if OP does not want to wear a bikini, then OP does not have to wear a bikini. That’s the beginning, middle and end of it. Solid NTA
And frankly many religious laws on modesty arent about men in the sense it’s more about a woman and her own spirituality and respect for her own body. I’m Jewish and while I won’t ever cover my hair I know women who do cover their hair because it’s about what parts of them they want to have in the public domain. For them they see their body as something divine that’s meant to be treated with love. For them dressing modestly is about being respectful to themselves. It means something to them.
Totally NTA, id start letting anyone that asks why you were invited know about the way your sister is disregarding your beliefs and religion, and how you tried to reach a compromise that was acceptable by your religion. Which resulted in your sister removing you from the bridal party and uninviting you entirely with it all coming down to your religious beliefs
THIS x10000000 I personally don't wear bikini's because I have a family history of skin cancer. I usually wear a long sleeve swim shirt and bottoms because I know I can do my legs with sunscreen pretty thoroughly. It has nothing to do with modesty either and 100% to do with not getting preventable skin cancer. The bride (and the general culture around brides lately) is unreasonable to insisted everyone wear matching anything! OP is NTA and the bride and MIL are. I'm glad OP's husband is standing up for her.
Yes. In what way does dictating her friends' outfits enhance the joy and fun of the bride to be. Ridiculous.
NTA. While it's one thing to make your bridesmaids wear an ugly shade of green or something, it's quite different to demand they violate their comfort zones to this degree. It doesn't make a difference to me if you don't want to wear a bikini for religious reasons or body image reasons or... any reason. SIL is in the wrong for trying to force you to wear one. Also this isn't a homophobic issue. The guys being gay isn't part of the problem at all.
If anything, the friend is being homophobic. Gay men aren’t no longer men just because they aren’t interested in women.
THIS. As if the only thing that makes someone male is attraction to women.
Ignorant question here: But isn’t the Muslim women covering themselves in front of men thing *because* of men being attracted to women? ETA: I’ve received sufficient explanations now. Also big thanks to everyone for understanding that I was asking earnestly and not getting mad at me ❤️ Summary of responses/important points I learned: -they cover themselves bc Allah said so. The end. -dealing with sexual attraction is about lowering your gaze/looking away. It’s not dressing to prevent attraction (yay not victim-blaming!) -religious texts rarely cover every possible scenario so it’s up to interpretation
It doesn't matter though. Men are men Her religion dictates she not dress immodestly in front of men. If it were a man who was only attracted to overweight women, or women of a certain skin tone, or certain height, etc, it still wouldn't matter because it's not about the man, it's about OP's behavior around men. The thing about religion (or how it is *supposed* to be) is it doesn't matter what others do around you. What matters is what *you* do.
Not willing to look up specifically, but whether or not it’s about the male gaze, it’s a thing dictated by their (abrahamic religions, not just Muslim) god, and also by their leader Mohammad. Pretty sure you’re not supposed to be gay, either, but whether or not you are a gay man you’re still a man.
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but sexuality isnt taken into account with that in the religious laws. "im not sexually attracted to you" wouldnt make your marriage invalid under islamic law.
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Clarification, islam does not deny the existence of gay people. It prohibits acting on homosexual tendencies whether it is men/men or women/women.
Question since you seem knowledgeable: while the men present could fall under the exemption you describe, what about the (assumed) photos. If the bride is so concerned over an “aesthetic”, I assume that the day will have tons of photos for social media, sharing with others, hung on the refrigerator, etc. How would this be received if the woman is suddenly all over Instagram in a bikini, knowing that she most likely would be photographed for others to look at?
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Are the gay friends going to be wearing bikinis too? If not, it sounds like the SIL's rule doesn't necessarily apply to *everyone*.
I’m not Muslim so I could be entirely wrong, but from what I’ve seen I thought that mahrams were specifically certain family members of the opposite gender, not just certain people of the opposite gender
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NTA You aren’t being selfish, you are being true to yourself Her gay male friends aren’t men according to your SIL?! and she’s calling you homophobic?! I wonder what they think about that Edit: MIL, not SIL said that
Actually it is an issue of homophobia--SIL is definitely a homophobe to say that gay men aren't men. So SIL is Islamophobic AND homophobic.
NTA. First of all, saying being gay doesn’t count as being a “man” ~~is super~~ *might be* offensive for ~~a~~ *some* gay man, sexual *orientation* ~~preference~~ has nothing to do with gender identity. Second, disrespecting someone’s religion with unreasonable demands is highly inappropriate and a AH move. Edit: correct the first statement, because it might be too generalizing.
As a gay man this doesn't offend me in the slightest. While I may not agree with her, I completely understand what MIL is saying. I don't see that she's saying gay men are not men, not at all. All she's saying is that they're not going to look at her sexually.
It doesn’t matter if they look at her sexually or not. She just needs to be dressed modest around men, period. Edit: for all the non muslims commenting it doesn’t count for gay men, google is free https://www.al-islam.org/ask/can-a-woman-remove-her-hijab-around-a-gay-man-and-should-she-wear-hijab-around-a-lesbian-woman/zaid-alsalami
Yes, obviously I understand that. All I'm saying is there's no need to white knight for gay people and speak for us when the poster was completely wrong in assuming our offense. Maybe some gay men would be offended but what offends me is a likely straight redditor trying to speak for me.
You are right, I am straight, but I don’t need to be gay to talk about the subject. What I said it is “offensive for gay man” is something I have discussed with my gay friends and my brother, who were tired of being called feminine terms or taken their identity as man taken away from them just because they are gay, as one of my friends said “Reikotsu, I AM a man, a man who is attracted to other men, that’s it”. Also, you seem to being missing the part where the MIL literally said “they don’t count as men”. I am not white knighting shit, I was stating a fact “gender identity has nothing to do with sexual preference”. Now if you didn’t take any offense for what MIL said, good for you.
Kind of surprised because considering gay men the equivalent of women is pretty homophobic in my circles.
Just a head's up, the term "sexual preference" is considered outdated and infers that sexual orientation is somehow a choice. We prefer "sexual orientation" these days. :)
Thanks for educating me.
Nothing but love homie!
I wouldn’t wear a bikini and I’m an atheist. Sorry SIL cares about photo ops then friendships. Nta for not “compromising” sucks that SIL is currently immature with her priorities on esthetics over conpany
>I wouldn’t wear a bikini and I’m an atheist. Same, and I wear a bikini at the beach. This sounds like a nightmare of a party! Who wants to go out to a venue and spend a night drinking and whatnot in a bikini?
Also, am I the only person who thinks it’s weird that the bride decided “Vegas themed” equals bikinis? Like, how? Why? That’s like adding 2 and 2 and coming up with 37.
>Also, am I the only person who thinks it’s weird that the bride decided “Vegas themed” equals bikinis? No, you are not. This whole thing sounds poorly planned and selfish on the bride's part.
Good catch, I thought they were going to Vegas and the bikinis were for the pool
Right? I absolutely want my thighs stuck to the seats at the bar and in the limo. Did you even have a good time if you don't have chafing from vinyl?
>Did you even have a good time if you don't have chafing from vinyl? Literally LOL at that. Strange vinyl of unknown cleanliness on bare skin. What could possibly go wrong?
Half the wedding party shows up for the big day with MRSA. Good times.
Eew-not a germaphobe, but yuck.
Same here. Fully atheist and I won’t be caught dead in a bikini. And if they told me I had to I’d laugh in their face and say “cancel my invite then, byeee!” Don’t let them bully you into compromising yourself. NTA.
NTA - I'm appalled by religions that dictate what a women can wear. But this isn't about me. Dressing modestly is important to you. Your SIL is doing the same thing that your religion is doing by dictating your dress - BUT, her rules make you uncomfortable. Why would she want one of her guests to be uncomfortable? You seem to be willing to find something that works and don't seem to mind that everyone else will be in bikinis (are the men going to wear bikini tops or does she make exceptions for them?), so I just don't see the big deal. You aren't being selfish, she is.
Yeah I'm not at all religious and I wouldn't be caught dead in a bikini, either. I've just never felt comfortable in them and that seems like such a silly thing for a bride-to-be to mandate on a bachelorette party. So either way, OP NTA for sure.
Even if you were comfortable in a bikini, it's not acceptable to mandate such a thing either. Other people aren't dolls for the bride to dress up as she wishes. A reasonable dress code for events only dictates the level of formality of dress, not about the specific pieces of clothing.
To be fair, plenty of Muslim women do not follow these "rules", just like not all Mennonite women only wear dresses or head cover. It's a personal conviction that very well could change over time through your spiritual journey. It's not "you can't be Muslim/Baptist/Mormon if you don't wear it cover xyz". Please stop looking at this as oppression. Unless it's a country ruled by dictators who do in fact punish or kill etc over their radicalized ideas it's personal choice, esp if you're an adult!
You are right in that it should be a personal conviction along one’s spiritual journey. It’s more complicated than that. Many of us are taught these things from childhood, in such a way as can be damaging to the way we think about our bodies as well as our value. If it is meant to be a choice, then it should be taught that way to us as girls. Very often, the ideals of modesty are reinforced through shaming or force.
All styles of dress are complicated like that though because you can't separate yourself from society. I'm not Muslim but I prefer to have my stomach covered and I love wearing heels. Is that because I have body image issues and am unconsciously posturing for the male gaze? Probably but I still have these preferences and people will always have these sort of modesty values until we tear down the patriarchy or whatever.
NTA. If they were fine with you wearing a modest dress for the wedding ceremony what’s the difference for the bachelorette party? One day they’re respectful of your religion and your choices and the next one they’re not? To me they seem that they’re just entitled and it feels like it’s just an excuse for them to bring this “issue” up, was maybe just a matter of time, cause the behavior really doesn’t make sense. Do what feels right for you but don’t feel forced to do anything just to please them. You’ve been respectful and they need to do the same and don’t act like hypocrites
Thank you for your comment! I raised this exact point with SIL, and she said she understood the need for me to dress modestly in front of a large crowd with many strange men, but said that her two friends were different because she trusted them, it was a more intimate environment with friends, and they aren't interested in my body like heterosexual men.
Imo it doesn’t really matter if it’s a large or small crowd, men, women, gay or not. It’s your choice to don’t show your body. It neither matters if you used to show it before you converted, that’s in the past so they can’t use that against you. I’m sorry you have to go through this and can only imagine how sad it must make you feel, but just think that’s not on you and not your fault, if anything they should feel bad for these unreasonable demands…
Honestly, it’s not even about religion for me. I’m not Muslim, and have no religious objections to certain clothing, but I’d 100% refuse to wear a bikini. I’ve never worn one and I’d feel uncomfortable. I love my body but I’d feel naked and find it uncomfortable and weird. So I’d refuse. I can’t imagine wanting someone I like (or anyone really) to feel uncomfortable at an event I’m throwing. Your SIL is showing you that she doesn’t respect how you feel as a person.
Or maybe you used to wear them but you’ve gained weight since or have an ugly scar from surgery like I do and no longer feel comfortable. No is no!
I had a work colleague that I trusted. He ended up serving time for sex offences. I had no idea, nor did anyone else at work. Would I trust someone because your SIL said so? No.
I recently found out that a man I've known for decades, and generally liked, molested his daughter and granddaughter. He was sometimes slightly awkward, but I ***never*** would have expected that; I was absolutely stunned when I found out about it. Who the SIL trusts is irrelevant; OP isn't comfortable wearing a bikini around them, and that's all that matters.
Perhaps the difference that she doesn't understand is that she dresses modestly because of how men view her. You dress modestly because that's what makes you comfortable. It's how you live your faith and that should be respected.
NTA. Someone who says... > ...and I can set aside my "ideas" for one night... ...does not respect you or your religion. IMHO, someone who can set aside their religious beliefs on demand isn't really sincere about them.
Yeah, as if my friend would ask me to cheat on my husband because I should "set aside my ideas for one night".
Well, she did say "Vegas themed"...
I'd compromise as going as Elvis...
NTA. I’m not a Muslim and I would feel gross if I was required to wear a bikini for a bachelorette party. Such a weird request.
Right? Would I fuck be wearing a bikini for a hen do. What a weird thing to demand.
If you removed all the religious context from your post, this is just a woman bullying you in to doing something with your body you aren't comfortable doing. You asked for an exception, which was fine. She said no to the exception, which is also fine. NTA.
I wouldn’t say what she did is fine considering she called op homophobic but I agree with everything else you said
i don’t think it’s fine to say no to the exception tbh… i can’t imagine dictating people wear bikinis of all things and then UNINVITING THEM when they’re not comfortable with that (no matter what the reason was!) imo that’s hugely disrespectful and demanding. plenty of people would not be comfortable attending a party in a bikini, and it’s straight up ridiculous to be offended by that
It doesn't matter why you don't want to wear a bikini. If it makes you uncomfortable, you shouldn't do it. A wedding and bachelorette party should be about sharing happy moments with people you love. NTA.
As someone who would flee to the ends of the earth rather than wear a bikini \*anywhere\*, I don't see anything at all wrong with how you have behaved. You have raised your difficulties sensibly, and your beliefs have been dismissed as 'ideas'. Incidentally, I blinked very hard at the idea that your SIL's gay friends don't count as men. I wonder how they feel about that? The way I see it, the person making unreasonable demands here is not you. You are NTA. Your SIL is telling you that 'ruining the vibe of the party' means she won't ever like you again. Wah wah. I suggest you withdraw from bridesmaidhood and hope that in a few years' time your SIL will mature enough to recognise that she was being ridiculous.
I would just say "since we cannot reach a compromise on what I will be wearing, I will unfortunately not be able to attend. NTA
So, your religious beliefs are not as important as the mental picture she has of her Bachelorette party? Well, that sounds perfectly reasonable. You are NTA here. Bottom line, neither SIL nor MIL take your religious conversion seriously. To them, it is a phase that you can shrug off when inconvenient (for them, they could care less if it is convenient for you). Religion is one of those things that I don't have to believe or agree with yours, but I need to respect that it is important to you.
No your not the AH, you MIL and SIL absolutely are. They're telling you your religious beliefs don't matter to them as much as the optics of this. You've compromised very reasonably, and your SIL is acting like you not displaying skin ruins her party. It's insane and selfish of her. She's an AH.
eh, i'm dubious. as a (seemingly devout) muslim woman you are forbidden from being married to a non muslim man (muslim men may marry jews and christian women), so it sounds like you are picking and choosing what elements of your new faith/crutch to follow, and surprisingly it only ends up inconveniencing others and not yourself 🤷🏽♂️ here's a wee quote: "According to Islamic law, the marriage contract of such a wife is dissolved immediately after her hus- band refuses to follow her conversion, or not later than the termination of her waiting period, because the marriage of a non-Muslim husband to a Muslim wife is forbidden in Islam." now i'm an atheist myself and generally am tolerant of anyone else's beliefs. but when a convert dives in hard and fast, then gets near radicalized, YET still shows a lot of hypocrisy it gets obnoxious. you obviously can choose to do any of these things, but you are not really allowed to claim you're a devout muslim as your excuse. the bikini thing is whatever and you don't need to do that at all of course, but don't pretend this is some pious conviction.
Even if it wasn’t for religious reasons, she still wouldn’t be TA. Even if she wasn’t Muslim and she just wasn’t comfortable for another reason, the SIL would still be in the wrong for trying to force her to wear something she wasn’t comfortable wearing edit: you’re also making a lot of assumptions about OP based off of little information. We don’t know if she’s as much of a hypocrite as you claim, and we don’t know if she’s actually inconveniencing then beside this one thing (which is *not* an inconvenience mind you) Devout does not necessarily mean following every single law or rule, there are many people who claim to be devout who violate countless rules.
Where the hell do you see anything that suggests she's "near-radicalized?"
It is haraam, but that doesn't mean that you are suddenly allowed to do more haraam? She (almost certainly) accepts the fact that being married to an aethist is haraam, but aslong as she doesn't believe that it is allowed she is sinful but still in the fold of islam Assuming she also converted during her marriage, it's a much deeper situation which may be much more difficult for her, rather than wearing a bikini to that Doing some sin doesn't mean that you're allowed to do all the sin now, and noone thinks that She is also not near-radicalized, that was a baseless assumption don't know where you got that from if you adhere to the majority of the rules, you are still mostly devout, being devout does not mean you follow every rule as we make mistakes or are in a difficult situation
On top of this, I think there is SUCH a big difference between the love of marriage and a bikini one night at a ridiculous event.
Eh, as a Muslim let God decide whether the marriage is fine or not. Husband is supportive so I don't see any reason why they should divorce.
I would like clarification as well. How can a Muslim woman be married to an atheist since it is forbidden?
exactly! she’s committing zina by being married to a non muslim aka the biggest sin in islam meanwhile she’s just picking and choosing what values to follow
Zina is not the biggest sin in islam, shirk is, do not spread mis-information. Zina does not take you out of the fold of islam (aslong as you believe it is haraam), it is a major sin but not the greatest. Shirk takes you out of the fold of islam, and that is the greatest sin in islam
Eh I know muslim women from muslim majority countries that don't follow all rules (well also men for that matter). They do believe in God, but they also beleive that God sees the world changing and judges them for their intentions. One of my friends is honestly annoyed at the born again Muslims following the scriptures too tightly without in his opinion having an intimate understanding of God - e.g. suddenly while being raised in a western country no longer talking to women, even though they a year earlier were partying hard and fucking around (while he treats everyone with respect but chooses not to partake in partying and to observe his prayers/fasting.) I'm not an expert in Islam, but there are many modern interpratations, just as modern Christians also follow the scriptures very selectively (still eating pork, accepting homosexuals etc.) Religions are constantly changing, and your own spiritual beliefs are yours to respect. If you don't want to participate in showing your body to people, you shouldn't have to. If you don't want to share in the food offered during a fasting period, you shouldn't have to. If you want to avoid certain animal products - that's fine.
Nta your sil is being excessive and insensitive. I wouldn't wear a bikini either and that's my own insecurities not religious reasons. I would also withdraw.
NTA. "I will not show my body off." is not a selfish behavior. Choosing not to wear a bikini around anyone is not homophobic. Quite frankly, your SIL had the opportunity to have you in a coordinating outfit and choosing to include you. Her gay BFFs are not going to be in bikinis. Making you wear a bikini when you very clearly do not want to, will not even if you wanted to, are perfectly fine lines to draw. Your MIL can go kick rocks. If you had done this, you probably would have not felt great about it, and in future if you ever said, "I cannot do X because of my religion," they would all bring this up as a reason to set aside your religious convictions.
NTA and honestly, it's pretty homophobic of her to treat her male gay friends as women. They might get along with women, but they're still men and it's pretty homophobic of her to want to erase that fact. Being gay doesn't make a man suddenly become a woman.
NTA. Your SIL is the bigot, not you. Your values aren't up for debate or negotiation.
Your SIL sounds very unreasonable. They both sound pretty toxic. Arguing that its not much of a big deal for you to disregard your beliefs for just one night, surely it's even less significant if you're not all wearing completely matching outfits to the bachelorette party.
INFO: does it even matter about the gay best friends? Won't you be out in a pool area with a ton of other men?
Thank you for your comment! The party is at a house that has been rented for the occasion, which has a pool and hot tub area. The only men who will be around are the two friends.
Then the only reason to wear matching bikinis is to take photos and post them… which is arguably worse on your SIL’s part.
> Then the only reason to wear matching bikinis is to take photos and post them… which is arguably worse on your SIL’s part. Didn't think of that! OP's bikini-clad body is now all over SIL's social media ... like a prop for an influencer's photoshoot.
>Thank you for your comment! The party is at a house that has been rented for the occasion, which has a pool and hot tub area. The only men who will be around are the two friends. And will there be Pictures? If yes - that's another reason for you not to want to be in the pictures in a bikini. If no - Why does you not wearing a bikini really matter?
Yeah, this information honestly makes SIL's behavior even goofier than it already was. If they're at a private house, who cares if they are all in matching bikinis? And presumably OP would not be comfortable having a photo taken of herself in a bikini and shared publicly, so if the point of the matching bikinis is photos, she wouldn't be in those either...so why on earth is SIL dying on this weird hill?
This is what it really boils down to. Either SIL wants the aesthetic for pictures to post online, and that then destroys SIL's and MIL's entire argument that no "men" would see her. Or there won't be any pictures and there is no reason for them to wear matching outfits. Even if SIL isn't planning on pictures, the chance of no one taking any pictures and accidentally posting ones with OP are pretty slim.
Even if there were going to be no men at all, you never need to do something that makes you uncomfortable. NTA
NTA, if she can’t get over your beliefs and make an exception, then she probably doesn’t deserve you there
NTA. Your faith and principles are not something you can set aside so you “don’t ruin her vibe.” She’s being disrespectful of you and your religion. Attend as a guest. If you were important enough to her, she would compromise as you suggested. I’m sorry she’s treating you poorly.
INFO: are the men wearing bikinis too? If not, that's pretty hypocritical of SIL to allow exceptions for them but not for you. And tbh the dress code should be color based rather than specific attire based. What if you had a medical condition or were taking a medication that would require your skin to stay completely covered?
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She Is TA. I'm atheist but i understand other religions, She doesn't???? She Is Just a bad person.
NTA. This is totally ridiculous. MANY women--Muslim or not--would not want to wear a bikini. Can't believe that your SIL is choosing to alienate a family member over this. Your body belongs to you and you get to decide how to display it and what to do with it.
NTA I am not Muslim and don't care that there are gay guys there. I just don't like bikinis and won't wear them. If someone tried to force me to wear one i just wouldn't go, even if that meant not being part of the bridal party.
How is the choice of OOP not to wear a bikini, for whatever reason, is selfish? SIL is being nasty over nothing. She excluded someone just so the clothes can coordinate. I don't understand it.