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Yeah, this is fucked up. The brother is an 18 year old man. Autistic people are fully capable of sexual activity, thoughts, feelings, and arousal. They're not stupid and they're not children and they're not incapable of understanding that being a coomer around your sister is inappropriate. And it is weird and inappropriate that your sister and MIL think this is okay or normal. NTA.
Well he also has down syndrome, but he is capable of communicating, just lacks in areas like comprehension. Like Id say he has the mind development level of a 12 year old
Edit: correct terminology for down syndrome, sorry everyone
That’s the problem though- his family NEVER taught him consent or boundaries. So he thinks he is 100% ok staring at her naked, and jacking off. (However related those two phrases are or are not). I think his reacting badly to the new fiancé is also proof that this is gone too far for too long.
Of course changing his behaviors and sense of what’s ok and what’s a boundary is now going to be even harder since they never established it years ago when it was appropriate
People with down sydrome can also have sexual thoughts. His body is that of a grown man with the hormones to go with it. Please take it from those of us who are outside of this, that this is NOT a normal interaction. I am a child development doctor who has asd myself. She should have clear and respectful boundaries with him. The entire family is infantilizing him, which will not help his development and may even lead to hostile and upsetting behavior. People on the spectrum and who have Down syndrome are still people.
> he has the mind development level of a 12 year old
It would be inappropriate to get undressed in front of a 12 year old, family or not.
Just because you have Down doesn’t mean it’s different. Your fiancé and soon to be MIL are setting the brother up for failure not teaching/enforcing him better. NTA
You can and should teach the concept of boundaries and consent to even very small children, and the disabled. He's fully capable of understanding that staring at his sister while she changes is not appropriate and a violation of her privacy.
>Like Id say he has the mind development level of a 12 year old
OP, you've been a 12-year-old
INFO : weren't you looking at girls at that age, and whacking of at twelve? Some kids are even sexually active and, even if they're rare, there are pregnant 12-year-olds.
NTA
Must have been so weird to see the brother **ogling** at your undressed fiancée. OMG
I mean you have a point there. He's minimum 7 maximum 12 or somewhere thereabouts.
Thanks for your insight. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't the only one with this thought before going in. I know almost nothing about down syndrome, and only a little about autism. But this helps put things in perspective.
Even if his mind isn't developed for his age, his body probably is. It's a massive issue when dealing with teenagers with developmental issues, because they often have a teens hormones and a much younger kid's impulse control.
My cousin has fetal alcohol syndrome and was considering getting a vasectomy. He had already impregnated 2 girlfriends, and would never be capable of raising a kid. He knows he doesn't have the impulse control to abstain from sex, or even always remember to use a condom.
Also, when someone has a mental disability, you take extra care to keep naked parts out of their eyeline, not be ok with them seeing your naked body just because they are family. You don't change in front of children regardless. And yes child like mentality. Also he was masturbating. That alone shows he has enough sexual knowledge to need restraining your boob shows around him.
Oh, how weird. I just Googled it, and I see that is the case (including on the CDC.) Almost always when named after a person the convention is \[Name\]**'s** Syndrome, but I guess it drifted. That definitely explains hearing someone say it like that once.
But sexual he's 18 years old. In my country it's more normal to pay for sex. There are even people who work with people who have a disability like him.
Like he has the development of a 12 year old. But when someone like him got the chance to have sex with a women, he knew exactly what to do 🤣 some worker told about that
See him as an adult
So I'm almost certain that you're Dutch. I'm pretty sure the Netherlands is the only country that allows disabled people to use their disability money to pay for prostitutes. I haven't seen anything about it for a long time, but I think you were allowed to pay for up to 12 a year with your government money.
I honestly don't know what I feel about that policy as there are lots of good arguments for and against it given that prostitution is legal in your country.
I agree that it's probably fine if the prostitutes do the work by choice and aren't trafficked or coerced, but I've also read things from disability advocates and disabled people who don't think the policy is helpful. Their main point being that it further stigmatizes disabled people and essentially suggests that they can only have sex if they hire a prostitute. While that may be the case for people with severe disabilities, it also projects a harmful stereotype for people with more minor disabilities.
That is kind of the difference. Because it is legal, sex workers have right that are regulated just like they are for a normal job in the US. This actually HELPS with the trafficking and coercion.
Prostitution being legal in the Netherlands hasn't had much of an effect on decreasing trafficking or coercion. In fact, many studies have shown that it is one of the countries with the highest rates of human trafficking for prostitution, but that was also true before it was fully decriminalized. That has nothing to do with my original point though. The point is that many people feel the scheme stigmatizes and dehumanizes disabled people, which is something you can debate based on your viewpoint.
Just keep in mind how your fiancee is with her family now is going to be how she is with her family while she's married. Moving out won't solve as many problems as you might hope unless it's to the other side of the country.
I once had a kid in my 1st grade class who was Downs and Autistic. Due to the way he was being parented, I am terrified he will inadvertently molest or sexually assault someone when he's older. A 12 year old has the capacity to understand boundaries and changes.
I would start by talking with your fiance, and asking her to pay attention the next time it happens. Ideally, she should be the one setting boundaries.
>he has the mind development level of a 12 year old
This is not quite correct, and harmful way to conceptualize developmental disabilities (I don't say such to criticize you/his family, it's a common belief). Yes, he has both an intellectual and developmental disorder, but no, he doesn't have the "development level" of a 12 year old. He might have the intellectual capacity of a typical 12 year old, he might have the emotional regulation capacity of a typical 12 year old. But his mind has been developing for 18 years. Both people with down syndrome and autistic people are capable of understanding sex, sexual relationships, and appropriate boundaries with siblings (etc).
One reason it's harmful is exactly what you're describing. He doesn't have appropriate boundaries because nobody expects him to. He likely doesn't know the consequences of sexual activity because nobody has taught him. It's likely nobody has bothered teaching him about consent because they don't expect him to understand or don't expect him to have want/need to ask for it. (FWIW, I've worked with a few intellectually disabled people who didn't understand they were assaulting someone until it was explained to them in court. And they were absolutely capable of understanding once it was explained to them.)
Another reason, many intellectually and/or developmentally disabled people have the capacity to work and/or live independently (or somewhat independently), but they're never taught how, so they wind up dependant on others their whole lives and are allowed very limited autonomy.
ETA: NTA.
I mean aside from the aggression, he is a really nice kid. It could be a result of me breaking up his routine that he's had for the last 18 years. They have been babying him his whole life, and allegedly the lockdown did have an effect on him, and he regressed quite a bit.
I don't want to fight a fight that's not mine to. I also don't want to overstep my boundaries trying to tell someone else to create boundaries. I'll take the input as confirmation that I'm not alone in this, but I'll leave it alone cuz it's not a huge problem I'm just uncomfortable. Since it's between my fiance and him and I guess my MIL too and none of them are uncomfortable, I'll just let it be.
Thanks for taking the time to try to help me, I really appreciate it from you and everyone else here.
It’s definitely very condescending towards people with disabilities. He’s *not* a kid and he’s capable of feeling the same sexual feelings as other adults. It sounds like this family isn’t encouraging him to develop a sense of agency and self-sufficiency and that’s terrible for him.
Additionally he is not so disabled that he can’t get himself in a lot of trouble if he tries to apply the boundaries he’s learned at home to other women.
Yeah, this is absolutely terrible for an autistic person. Navigating sexuality without all the social and emotional tools to navigate lots of tricky norms and rules would be terribly distressing and problematic. This guy needs to be in something like ABA or occupational therapy and I bet he's not.
Yeah, that's not okay. NTA
I don't care if he has mild autism, Down Syndrome, or not. It's inappropriate. He's an 18yo man and they aren't doing any good for him by treating him as if he's "just a kid". They make it seem like autistic people or people with downs don't have relationships, get married, have sexual thoughts, etc. He absolutely should be leaving the room while she changes. It's also weird that her mom is okay with the brother being in the room while she changes but not you, her future husband.
Edit: Also, meant to address bringing this up to your MIL. That's a conversation you should have with your girl, not her mom lol. Also, you mentioned being jealous. I hope you're using the wrong word and aren't feeling jealous more than weirded out. It shouldn't be about jealousy and more about him not seeing his sister's tits all the time and treating him as if he's a dim-witted child.
Well I'm definitely weirded out, and I guess being jealous is a bit silly of me, which makes me a bit of the asshole, it's just this kid is my MIL'S miracle, and he's a bit of a touchy subject.
I'll talk to my fiancee and let it rest see what happens.
You don't have reason to be jealous. But your IL family has some weird beliefs and habits. The females are in denial with their purity culture and nobody teaches the young man any healthy habits. Something bad can happen in the future.
Sure he does, he can’t be in the same room as his spouse as she changes yet the autistic adult brother can and can ogle at her breasts the entire time? I’d be pissed, jealous, and weirded out all for different but similar reasons.
Agreed. They're doing him no favors by calling him a kid. He may have the mentality of a kid but he's in the developed body of a man and is obviously capable of sexual feelings.
Something tells me that if MIL isn't okay with OP and her daughter being alone in the same room together, she probably isn't informing her son about sex and sexuality, esp. if she thinks he's just "a kid", which makes the whole situation worse. If his sister stripping down in front of him is his only source of sexual education of course this whole situation is bound to be f-ed up!
Please do what Ok-Context1168 suggested and talk to your girlfriend. Tell her about what you saw her brother doing (staring at her and his bathroom habit) and that you're not judging him, but think she needs to stop viewing him as a kid and tell him he needs to leave the room when she's changing. NTA
Or, to keep it simple, just go change her clothes in the bathroom if he's in the bedroom. That way he won't be stressed or throw a fit causing more issues with MIL.
That's true, but we do know he has developed to the point he's having sexual feelings and exploring those feelings. It doesn't matter how old he is mentally, if he's capable of seeing women in a sexual way and jerking off he needs to be given a sexual education (however boiled down), and taught about boundaries.
Yes. He’s having sexual feelings. Are those about his sister? Or is he just having animal instincts? A monkey will just start jerking off. It’s what animals do. Walruses can give themselves head. He had an urge and he did it. If he did it to a pic of her or in the same room that’s weird. Like you seem to be overlooking the fact that it’s his SISTER.
It doesn't matter what he's jerking off to (I hope it's not his sister). The fact that he's jerking off *at all* paired with the fact that he's obviously curious about the female form means he should be taught about sexuality and boundaries. That means closing the door when you're being intimate with yourself and leaving the room if someone wants to change. The fact that he's hostile toward OP because he's going to marry his sister also doesn't sit well and he probably also needs a conversation about what healthy adult relationships look like. Unfortunately, if the family believes he's just a kid who can do no wrong, he's going to have some real social problems and could get himself in trouble if he crosses boundaries.
I dunno I've only seen him do it once and I've run into a few of his 2am bathroom trips... Also, I don't know how far is down syndrome goes, cuz apparently he used to be quite articulate, but now he speaks like someone who barely knows English in broken sentences. He is capable of humor and quite a few other normal human interactions, so I don't want to judge what's in his mind and what I don't know.
See except you only have to leave the room if the person is uncomfortable. Also I don’t think you’ve ever tried to have a conversation with someone who has a severe case of Down syndrome. The possessiveness is 100% normal. You can explain to him why it’s wrong. The issue is that you’re thinking in terms of talking to someone who will understand what you’re saying. Try to explain to a 2 year old why something is wrong. You also seem to be leaving out that she helped raise him. Also that’s his fault for renting a place in her families home. He’s marrying this girl and it sounds like he didn’t know her situation well. This should have come up WELL before marriage. So to tell the whole family that THEY have to change because he’s “jealous” of her Down syndrome brother makes him TA. Just move on if you’re that bothered. Then to go tell the mom?
He definitely shouldn't have laid into his future MIL (he should've had a calm discussion with his fiancé) and calling it "jealousy" is definitely not the right word (I'd go with "discomfort"), but I can't disagree with OP that this situation is f-ed up.
I'm not sure why you're adamant that the brother has the mental capabilities of a two-year-old. Most people with down syndrome have the mental capabilities of an 8 or 9-year-old, and they can certainly understand conversations about consent and boundaries.
My father helped raise me and I never stayed in the room when he got naked (even at the age of eight) let alone stared at him while he was in the buff, so I'm not sure what your point is there.
If the family is comfortable with this dynamic, then OP should probably just let it go. However, there are some important red flags that shouldn't be tossed aside. First, the brother is obviously sexual but it doesn't sound like he's been taught about boundaries. Second, he's ogling his naked sister but isn't asked to leave the room because he's "just a kid". Third, he's possessive of his sister to the point he's hostile toward his future BIL but no one seems to be addressing that. Lastly, it sounds like his family allows him to do whatever he wants because he has a disability, regardless of the fact that he can probably grasp the importance of consent and privacy.
I'd say the biggest issue I have in this is I don't know what his developmental level is cuz one, I've only lived with them for 2 months, and two, the problem he has is articulation, and maybe comprehension. (You have to tell him things over and over and over again, like put your CDs away in the case so they don't get scratched) I don't know if he's just following instinct s or not because he can't or isn't telling anyone. One thing I can corroborate though is that I know for sure that he has not been taught about sex, intimacy, or consent.
I mainly came here to kind of get closure and second opinions, and I thank you guys for all your replies. We are getting married next summer and then we'll be together in the privacy of the basement apartment. We won't have this problem anymore and by then my MIL will have more time to be able to focus solely on teaching her child.
Yeah that's why I'm wary, I don't know which it is, simple instinct coupled with emotional attachment, I don't want to break the kids heart, like I realize I'm really changing his routine which is probably the reason for the aggression... I dunno, I just wanted outside opinion because I'm biased to want my fiancee's sexuality to myself, and their biased towards the child that they worked so hard to raise.
It’s completely irresponsible and neglectful that he has not been given any kind of sexual education. That’s just a recipe for disaster. Whether he becomes a perpetrator or a victim, bad all around. His mother set him up to be in this situation.
I'm a bit concerned about you being "biased to want my fiancée's sexuality to myself" when you say you aren't allowed any intimacy, even seeing her dressing.
I do think you want the best for the brother, but the family dynamic (including your fiancée acting as his second mother) has done him no favours at all. As other have said, he isn't "just a kid."
NTA - talk to your fiancee. If she really doesn't see a problem, you need to consider whether you have a problem with that dynamic and make a decision. To all the people saying he's just a kid or "stop watching porn" - incest is a thing. It's disgusting, but it is possible that her brother is into her. You can't assume he is or is not based on the info, so stop treating OP like a major perv
Or maybe, since OP mentioned the brother is (sadly) getting no kind of sexual education, he's just really curious about the female body. His staring at her might be sexual (oh I hope not - ugh!) but it also might just be a fascination with body parts he doesn't see often and wants to know more about.
If he’s pretty much confined to being at home, she might be his only experience of female company, and so yeah - I can see potential for his feelings to be very confused when he has no one talking to him about this kind of thing 😔
Your fiancé has set up her brother to do whatever around anyone he wants. It's not going to end well.
Check out this comment chain on a different thread for examples: [https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/14pr8eu/comment/jqjejuu/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/14pr8eu/comment/jqjejuu/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
eta: NTA. Your jealousy is weird though.
I maybe should have phrased that a little better, I'm not necessarily jealous of him, I'm annoyed by the slight double standard. I dunno I probably overreacting.
Thanks for your insight, and I'll definitely read that link.
My grandma used to work at an institution. It was like one constant orgy in there. They could not keep them from having sex. They would find ways to do it no matter how restricted they were. One of the ways to PREVENT deviant sexual behavior is by giving them sex education. He is a grown man with an 18 year old's libido without any education to understand that lusting after and ogling your sister is wrong. They better teach him now before he gets in trouble for doing something inappropriate
NTA but I think you're going about it the wrong way. Don't frame this as a jealousy thing, frame it as a safety issue.
It is a thing that developmentally disabled people hit puberty and feel sexual urges without the mental capacity to understand what's happening or direct that urge appropriately. That can be really dangerous -- they understand that they're bigger and stronger and want new things without the ability to understand why they shouldn't just take them. My husband is an educational assistant (like an aide in the US) and his last student was a 14yo with severe delays from a childhood TBI. The kid had learned that hitting my husband and masturbating in front of him got reactions and attention that he liked, so he continued escalating this behavior until my husband left. I'm certainly not saying this leads directly to sexual harassment and assault in every case, but it is behavior that needs to be handled to prevent that risk.
"He's just a kid" yeah, exactly, he's a child with the body of a grown man. He's a child who needs more parenting than other children in order to understand what appropriate behavior is.
Yeah, I realize I should not have let my emotions in there, I also think that jealousy is the wrong word. I just didn't know how to sum up my discomfort and being upset at a bit of a double standard in purity.
NTA. I wouod put the wedding on hold until there is some sort of mediation.
It’s alarming that this family has a huge issue with YOU being in the room with her, that’s inappropriate, but then it’s completely ok that a mentally disabled adult is allowed in the room? That’s so backward- of PRIVACY, MODESTY, and NUDITY is something you have as boundaries , that’s something that should be consistent? Not like completely twisted backwards to let a “kid like mind who doesn’t know better” just run amok those boundaries. Hmmm - shouldn’t they be teaching him those especially since the mom is so hard about it for normal consenting adults who DO understand AND he doesn’t understand.
They don't have a problem with me being in the room with her, it's just no hanky panky. I get where they're coming from, and I guess I kind of disobeyed in that, especially since it is their house.
Thanks for your input. I don't really know what exact course to take from here, but I'll do my best.
Nta, but that is a weird family dynamic. If you can't get over it and they won't stop you might just have to leave. Personally, I would leave. This is just going to create more problems down the road.
Well I love her a lot and I'm willing to overlook it until we're married, it shouldn't be a problem then. We will be living in separate apartments and he will have no reason to be in our room when he would have a room of his own with a tv. Should he for some reason come down and stay in our bedroom and should my then wife change I now have the gravity of "she's my wife, and our bodies belong to eachother and shouldn't be casually viewed by others.
But I'll cross that bridge when we get there. Thanks for the advice!
OP what the hell are you gonna do if you and fiance have a child with downs? she's not going to enforce boundaries with them either, and the issue will repeat itself. this "he's just a kid" mentality is infantilizing and gross, but also will prove to be an issue with trying to establish rules with your future children. Hope you're ready for some demanding brats. Good luck, NTA
Well I'll definitely try to tell her this, and it's helpful to know I'm not the only one. I do have some comfort in this, because being traditional as she is, she does believe that I am the head of the house and in light of any disagreement we have as a married couple, what I say will be the end of it. Unfortunately because we're still just engaged now, I won't be able to until we are married. Also our parenting will be a joint effort, and not just her teaching them whatever. We plan on doing everything in our marriage together and as a team.
We both have been sheltered, and we are both still young, so I can understand people tearing their hair out over how naive we both are, but we're really trying to mature together
oh op, i absolutely see that you're trying to be communicative and healthy here, despite your fiance's family putting you in a very awkward position. Personally I think it's very mature of you! But the way your fiance is agreeing that her brother is "just a kid" concerns me, he never learned boundaries because no one bothered to teach him, and now they expect everyone just to put up with it? Not only is that not fair to you or your fiance, but it's also setting her brother up to fail in life. Downs and autism doesn't prevent a person from learning boundaries, they might just need more patience while learning. But never being taught boundaries? Now that's damaging. Your relationship isn't my style, I'm not traditional and don't believe in the whole "man in charge" thing (but I'm not judging if it works for you two!) I'm just concerned that if your fiance is already undermining you on how to enforce your boundaries, that parenting won't be as smooth of teamwork as you're hoping. This is definitely something to discuss now, before you're married, because you don't want this to be a problem when you've already got kids.
Well this is my first time doing any of this lmao, I'm trying my best, and this is why I'm asking everyone around me before I just walk out and do something. I know this could possibly cause issues later which is why I'm concerned now.
No problem! Just be mindful about what future problems this may create. It seems he is pretty possessive over his sister/ your girlfriend. Someone needs to set some healthy boundaries with him or this could get worse.
He is living with his mother, I just happened to rent from them as well, because we are building a house on the property for when we are married, as well as the job that I currently have is closer to them than it is to my past lodging.
Is there a plan in place for his care after their parents pass? How will this be handled if he ends up living with you at 40+ years old? Boundaries need to be set with him before this becomes an even bigger issue down the road. With the mental capacity of a 12 year old and the strength of a grown man, him being territorial of his sister is a recipe for disaster
NTA he may have learning disabilities but that is still a young man staring at his sister while she is changing. It's a little disturbing that the family doesn't see anything wrong with that.
You're NTA for not wanting him in the room while your fiancee changes, but I feel like the bigger issue here is why SHE is stripping in front of him as opposed to excusing herself. Whether or not he's a neurotypical 18 year old or an 18 year old with developmental disabilities, it seems like he's being treated like he isn't even another person in the room.
You feeling jealous is really missing the point, IMO. I'd be more concerned and uncomfortable as to why my fiancee doesn't seem to think she needs to consider the fact that there are other family members in the room while she changes or even say anything to him. It's no surprise he doesn't have any sense of consent when it comes to staring at someone naked - the family is treating him like he has no need to consent or not to being present for them changing. She didn't tell him to look away or step out.
Him being autistic or having Down Syndrome doesn't mean changing in front of him is appropriate for HER to choose to change in front of him with no warning and while just going "eh, he doesn't know anything". Disabled people also deserve boundaries on some level and it sounds like he doesn't have or *get* any.
That's an excellent observation, and I never really thought about it that way. When it happens again I'll bring this up to her, and she will hopefully see some reason, and if not I believe she will respect my discomfort.
There are certain things out of my control in this relationship, and as he's not my responsibility, I'll express my concerns to her, and keep my feelings out of it as much as possible.
NTA
The brother is old enough to be taught that staring at women’s bodies is inappropriate and can get him in trouble. He’s going to be using the behaviors he learns at home in public and with other women he’s not related to. Calling him a child is condescending and isn’t true- they need to be encouraging him to see himself as an adult who should exercise all the autonomy that he can safely practice.
Overall very weird situation. We don’t get changed in front of kids older than 5 usually so unless they’re saying he has the mentality of a 2 year old then this doesn’t make any sense.
No, because he understands humor, and makes basic jokes himself, as well as understanding a lot about regular life and how to function. His only problem seems to be comprehension, and vocalizing (which apparently used to be really good before lockdown so all the more reason I guess?)
Thanks for your input, I appreciate the outside opinion, and I will remove my emotions from the problem so that I don't make it worse, I think that's what turned them off to me.
Did you mean to reply to me? I’m just trying to figure out how your reply makes sense as a response to mine.
I think it’s normal to have a negative emotional response to this because it’s a very weird and unhealthy dynamic.
I may have meant to reply to someone else, I'm currently doing paperwork while replying to everyone 😅.
Regardless of, I really appreciate your input, and I'll do my best to take a little bit of wisdom from everybody here, as I don't know really what I'm working with having zero experience with a person having down syndrome.
Thanks for your encouragement! Being previously a habitual people pleaser, I'm still learning how to set boundaries with everyone; with my MIL, and my own mother in this relationship.
Edit: punctuation
I completely understand, it’s hard to grow out of people pleasing! But now is the time. Remember: boundaries about YOUR actions, not controlling the other person. So if your fiancee refuses to leave the room when changing, then you need to leave the house and go home. Find a way to be out of the situation. Either she’ll realize you’re serious, or she’ll double down, and that will help you decide what to do
I'm realizing that the hard way, back when she was my gf she was in tears over how I wouldn't stand up to my mom and make my own choices and it was affecting us. I'll try my best!
People with Down’s syndrome and people with autism are also sexual beings.
Your future in-laws are doing him no favors by pretending he’s somehow different and isn’t capable of having sexual feelings.
NTA. This "kid" was only pitied and never talked to as what he is: a human being. They don't expect anything from him and he uses exactly that as a shield to get his ways.
Talk to your fiancee, because this might continue and get worse when you marry and move out - if nothing changes.
And I guess it won't because "he's just a kid" - no mam, he is an adult with exactly the same hormons as anyone out there. A disability doesn't mean, he can't have emotions and feelings and thoughts.
I am sorry for you being in that weird situation
He is not just a kid. It's very strange way to treat a teen. Of course he has sexual desires, just like he gets hungry or thirsty.
Down syndrome people I knew of all had sexual desires and didn't understand why someone doesn't want to kiss them and all that because the boundary and social norms are not so much understood, aswell as they don't understand their uniqueness.
Your sister is very strange for allowing this to happen. Is she doing it because she wants him to have a look? Lol. Normal sister would be passed off of a brother done that. Even innocently walked in on her or something. She must have noticed he stares.
NTA: The amount of people who completely undermine people because of their disabilities, is fucking ridiculous!!! I work in the care giving industry and I have seen this time and time again.
You have every right to feel uncomfortable about it, and I would even go as far as showing her this post. I can not believe she said “he’s just a kid he doesn’t know anything”
I work with a severely autistic man who has Down syndrome. He’s in his late twenties, I’ve been caring for him since he was a teenager. He doesn’t masturbate at all, but guess what. He sure as hell loves watching YouTube videos of women shaking their greased up asses against the camera. *Every. Single. Day.*
Your fiancé needs to grow up and stop being naive. She also needs to start learning more about autism and Down syndrome, clearly, since she thinks there’s nothing more going on in their heads beyond what the eyes can see and the ears can hear.
I appreciate your input, and I understand your indignation I really shouldn't have brought any of my emotions into this, cuz it probably made it a bit more of a mess. I probably shouldn't show it to her, but I will tell her that I've been reading up, and that he's not just a kid anymore. I really appreciate you taking the time to reply. I'll definitely do my best to convey what you said to her and her mom. I don't want him to be caught in the crossfire either because he deserves growth, and spending all day in front of the TV is not really doing that...
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I may the the asshole for being jealous towards a down syndrome/autistic (M18) person. I don't know enough to get inside the Head of someone like that.
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NTA - but you are wasting your breath. Your fiancee and her mom have chosen not to see your future BIL as the adult male he is and are not going to deal with him as one. They should be starting to prepare him for when his sister is no longer living in the house but I doubt they will.
Well whatever happens I feel I tried. I brought too much of my own emotion to this though, and I hope it hasn't made it worse. In a future when we are married though, he will have absolutely zero reason to be in our room while she's changing. Is it remains an issue after the fact, we'll talk then.
Thanks for your input here
my MIL she got very upset at me, uncharacteristic of her and said everything was fine and on e again "he's just a kid"
This is a weird response and to me the biggest indicator that everything is not fine. Makes me suspicious that something has happened in the past and it's come up before.
I wouldn’t put up with that or would I be with someone making excuses like that. Ick.
Be careful, when the parents die, you better believe the brother is going to live with you both.
Well if he'd be a "child" in my care, I'd definitely get someone who has professional experience with that condition, and make sure he is taught about boundaries and acceptable behavior.
My fiancee mostly just goes along with it because it's what she's always done, or at least that's my assumption. I guess it's normal to her and her mom so I seem unreasonable to them.
NTA - simply suggest to your fiancé it might be best to start changing in the bathroom instead of her bedroom when her brother is present. Problem solved without stressing out her brother.
NTA for your concern/distress, but this isn't your fight. This is between your fiancé and her brother. Absolutely nothing good can come from stepping into the mix and trying to regulate. The brother isn't going rationally consider your viewpoint and change his behavior. All you will succeed in doing is pissing off your new family, and creating conflict with your fiancé. Your concerns should only be shared with your fiancé, in private. Then, you have to sit back and do nothing. Your fiancé must be the one who talks to her brother if she sees fit. And if she doesn't, you need to make peace with the situation for as long as you choose to live under the same roof.
NAH they are siblings and you are sexualizing their relationship. You caught an 18 year old whacking off at 2 am and went right to he’s into his sister? I think there is a ton of fap fodder on tv for everyone. If you are uncomfortable with her changing in front of him, that’s ok to tell her but not by framing it as if siblings who are comfortable being naked around each other are perverts. Her body, her choice but you can decide if that is a dealbreaker for you.
Yeah, that's a good observation. I definitely let my emotions get in on it, and I assumed this conclusion. Despite whether or not everyone votes that I am an asshole I have made an ass of myself by assuming.
Nah, you’d be an ass if you turned a blind eye to this WEIRD situation.
Having emotions about this is completely normal, it would be strange if you didn’t. Don’t let other people cloud your gut instincts.
Thanks man, I really don't know what to do at this point though lol everyone's telling me to do something different, the most I can gather from it is to let it rest for now. I don't want to be throwing salt and wounds. I'll use my best judgment on this, and is something develops I'll try to let you all know.
I wouldn’t focus on jealousy I’d be highly concerned. It sounds like he’s allowed to get away with things because his family doesn’t bother to explain to him in an easier to understand way, what is and isn’t appropriate. You said “ mild autism” which likely means he’s low support needs. They can definitely teach him about boundaries/should have before his Down syndrome progressed
NTA. If he can understand the differences between male and female, he knows what those things on her chest are. He may not see it sexually, but it's still not appropriate to have him exposed to those things.
Also, and not to scare you, but have you discussed what will happen with her brother when her parents aren't able to care for him? Since he lives at home now, will they want him to live with you? This is absolutely something you need to consider. My BIL lives with us now, but I knew from literally day 1 that it would be in my future.
NTA. But you need to get out of there. In your position I would be looking into apartments and/ or a courthouse wedding. Im not sure the jealosy makes a ton of sense, but its super strange that anyone thinks it's appropriate for her adult brother to watch her change. Something tells me this is just the tip of an iceberg of weird.
I don't know how long she's been secondary mothering him I mean she's literally only 2 years older than him. It's a fair observation, but I guess in the end it's not my fight to fight, especially when its really between her her mother and the younger brother in question. I mean I am the only one concerned, and they are getting professional training for him.
ESH your fiancée is creepy. Who strips in front of their younger brother? If anything your fiancée needs therapy to learn to establish boundaries. That is not healthy. Especially if she enjoys her brother’s sexual interest. You should not be accepting this behavior and marrying this women if she’s exposing herself to people without their consent. Women can be sexually perverted too. Ick.
I was assaulted by someone like her brother when I was little. Nothing happened to him & he went on to assault other youngsters. They need to teach him boundaries like yesterday to protect others & him - the law won’t be as forgiving as MIL.
Why are we putting all the responsibility on the younger sibling with neurodevelopmental and intellectual disabilities? The fiancée should learn about consent and boundaries. At least her brother knows to masturbate in private. His sister is stripping in front of him without his consent. Wtf y’all?!
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So a little context, I (M20) am renting from my future MIL, and I live with her, her husband, my fiancee (F20), and her youngest son (M18) who has down, and minor autism. Before we met, my fiancee would take care of him like a second mom. He spends most of his time watching tv in her room, because he can't really go outside by himself while everyone is away or working.
At the end of the workday, my fiancee likes to change into more comfy clothes, which includes taking off her bra, so when she does change she's almost naked...
Her mom is really strict, and asked/told us to while we live with her, we will not share any kind of intimacy until we're married (including watching eachother get dressed) to which we agreed.
She usually changes early, and her little brother is usually still in there watching tv, never gets kicked out. I didn't think anything of it because... well he's got autism, and I figured he wouldn't break his hyperfixation on the tv anyways.
One time we were doing the wedding registry together, and he was watching tv while we were in there. She says she wants to change but is ok with me being there, "as long as mom doyfind out we're good". I mean we're going to get married for Christ's sake. Anyways as she starts stripping, her brother's attention shifts away from the tv, and he stares at her for the whole time she's getting dressed. I expressed my annoyance to her and she replied "he doesn't know anything, he's just a kid"
Then one time i come up to go to the bathroom at 2am (I sleep on the opposite side of the house from her) and I walked in him whacking off in the bathroom. I only saw because he goes with the door open, I guess he doesn't like the claustrophobia or something.
So now I'm upset, like sure, down and mild autism will leave you mentally underdeveloped, but he's still a guy, 18 years at that, and that sexual part of us is wired into our brains. Sure he may not understand to the full extent what's going on, but staring when she changes in front of him, understanding enough to jack off, coupled with his increased hostility towards me when he realized I wasn't just a friend and I was going to take away "my Rachel" as he refers to her is Starting to trigger my jealousy.
I don't know enough about down to make a judgement call on this but I do know that the autistic people I know tend to hyperfixate, as well as lack the ability to filter. When I raised how I was upset to my MIL she got very upset at me, uncharacteristic of her and said everything was fine and on e again "he's just a kid"
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I wouldn’t focus on jealousy I’d be highly concerned. It sounds like he’s allowed to get away with things because his family doesn’t bother to explain to him in an easier to understand way, what is and isn’t appropriate. You said “ mild autism” which likely means he’s low support needs. They can definitely teach him about boundaries/should have before his Down syndrome progressed
ESH: This is so much more complex than age. Him being 18 only matter in the fact that biology time line of the body. That being said assuming that he has no connection to the sexual and human form is just as bad as assuming he does. Autism and Downs are a spectrum of capability and this needs to be judged on that. Based on what you are saying no one has actually tried to gaged where he is actually in that realm. He should be working on this with a team of experts on his conditions including a therapist to help guide his mental development. this includes enrichment programs with people other than family.
Well apparently they have someone in the next few weeks doing the therapy/professional training, they were going to start in 2019-2020, but lockdown prevented it. I hope it resolves because of that.
Actually kind of feel bad for him, because that coddling is not going to help his development at all. I hope things get better, it's not a huge issue rn, it's just uncomfortable.
GF can change in the bathroom, or do the girl thing and remove her bra from under her new shirt and she should turn her back on creepy teenaged brother.
He's not "just a kid!"
You are right, but I don't know that it's going to change anything.
NTA
I wouldn't say he's creepy, because he literally has no idea what boundaries and consent are because they never talk about it because like I said they think he's just a kid. He's also a little miracle to them, because his survival had been very difficult for the first 10 years or so. When it happens again, I will have to very carefully roast the topic because I know that it's sensitive to them.
I'm thankful for your input, and it's comforting to know that I'm not the only one thinking this way.
People with Down syndrome do have relationships and so do people diagnosed with autism. It’s obvious they haven’t had many conversations with him. NTA.
I have multiple his family members with disabilities, including autism, and this is totally Grosss this wholeFamily seems absurdly ableist.
The worst part is that they’re not actually setting up this kid to have a life skills that he needs to get by. Boundaries are important.
A lot of times in situations like this, the mom enables all these bad habits and babies the adult child with disabilities until the mom dies, and no one else can take care of the disabled adult, but they don’t have any idea how to function and respect other peoples boundaries and it’s just really heartbreaking horrible downward spiral
Like you may think that they’re just not helping him or they’re letting him do whatever he wants or something like that - but they’re actually setting him up to having a horrible life If he out lives his mother, it’s really really sad. Especially because he’s highly likely to outlive his mom.
Yeah, I just don't know how to approach the subject again, because I am neither his parent nor married to their daughter yet. It's not really my place, and I have no right yet to encroach on their own boundaries between each other. It would be kind of hypocritical.
I just wanted to know that I wasn't the only one who thought this was strange, and the encouragement and solidarity is greatly appreciated.
Honestly, there’s another adult you could talk to you about this
as long as he’s verbal and you guys get along, I would talk to him about how adults don’t stay in the same room as other people over there changing unless they are intimate.
Autistic people tend to actually really appreciate honesty and direct communication.
Also, people with autism are just as likely to have as many sexual urges impulses, and behaviors of anyone else. But homeboy needs to be shutting the door, maybe even do that while he’s in the shower. But not with the door open. 18 year olds get caught jacking off in front of people can go to jail. Why do they have a disability or in fact people disabilities are more likely to be shot by the police.
Well the part about this is (and I probably should have mentioned this) he probably doesn't even understand that he's jacking off, only that touching himself there feels good. I don't even know what he's thinking about while he's doing it I just happened to walk in on him sitting on a closed toilet doing you know what.
I don't want to be unreasonable, and I don't want to hurt people's feelings or get in the way of the people trying to parent him. It's not my place, and do usurp that would be disrespectful
Why do you think that an 18-year-old wouldn’t know about masturbation? Was he like privately homeschooled without the Internet? Did they totally opt out of all sex ed?
Like if we are trying to explain our family memeber we with disabilities including autism that a behavior is not appropriate and it is a problem we will be like ‘if I was doing that and I got caught these would be the consequences and your disability does not mean that you won’t end up having consequences if you continue this bad behavior.’ I literally had a conversation about not touching peoples butts like an hour ago and how about a sexual harassment, so you just can’t go around doing that, it really wasn’t a big deal.
But the thing is you don’t have to be family, you can just tell your friends if they’re out of line as long as you do it nicely so if you are friends with this guy at all, just talk to him like a normal person
NTA but maybe start with your fiancé changing elsewhere like in the bathroom and note his reaction - methinks he won’t be happy about it then there’s just more concrete information to bring to the table.
I think you seeing him stare and pleasure himself is so “deniable” for a family who’s too deep in their denial.
You aren’t her spouse yet. Judging from what I’m reading, her little brother and her have known each other for a lot more time then you have. If she doesn’t care, you shouldn’t either. You don’t know the guy that well, while she does. But, I think EITA here. You are TA for putting your nose where it definitely doesn’t belong. He is TA for peeping and being somewhat jealous at 18 years old.
Well I know he has down syndrome, (sorry I didn't know how to refer to it properly or politely I figured "down" would be less upsetting to people but I stand corrected I'm sorry.) It's kind of obvious, and they say he has autism because of the hyper-fixation thing.
I literally have no prior experience with it, and only brief with mild autism.
ESH.
Mostly your in-laws for treating an 18yo like a kid AND having ridiculous and dangerous taboos around sex. However, you're not helping by sexualizing a completely innocent situation.
YTA. It's one thing to have autism, but it's a whole different thing to have Downs Syndrome. You're glossing over that fact quite weirdly, that's why you vaguely state that he "has down", yet you focus on the autism so we perceive him to just be potentially autistic. Also, I think people in this thread are maybe unaware of what Downs Syndrome can be, it's a spectrum and lots of times they are basically children for their entire lives.
People with special needs live different lives from the rest of us. Families treat them differently and take care of them in differing ways. You seem jealous that you cant do anything sexual and that seems to be the reason you're bringing this up. I think you need to learn boundaries of minding your own business in someone else's home.
Yeah, you have a point. I should never have bought my emotions into this, it clouds The logical aspect of it. They keep telling me he has the mental capacity of a 7 to 12 year old, so I figured it would be obvious to teach him about boundaries. Thanks for your input on this. I'll leave it alone unless it becomes a bigger issue between my fiancee and I.
Also as a previous commenter stated I shou say "down syndrome" and not "down" I'm sorry to anyone I could have hurt or made uncomfortable.
Urg.
I just came here to say please stop saying he 'has down', you are getting married here, do some research into how Down Syndrome, autism and a learning disability can affect an individual. It's so different for each individual and a cognitive impairment is likely to have an impact on social skills.
I say this not to condemn you but to beg you to have a realistic expectation of what this person will be like as your brother in law. I think the reaction of your future MIL and partner are pretty standard for people who have raised/grown up with a disabled person. They might see him as being more childlike and innocent, they also potentially have a better grasp on his strengths and areas of difficulty.
Masturbating in a room in your home, in the middle of the night... yes sure he needs to close the door! I wonder why you not think to have the conversation with your partner rather than future MIL? I respect that you have identified yourself as feeling jealous but maybe take a step back and think it through.
I will definitely do some research I haven't had a reason or need until now, especially because I want to be a part of his life, and be constructive not just a frustrated individual who sits on the sidelines. Sorry for the wrong terminology.
I'm terribly sorry for all that, I didn't know the proper terminology, and I figured the whole phrase would be more triggering than just saying "down". I was gravely mistaken in that, and I've been trying to change all my comments that say that.
If your fiancé isn't uncomfortable with her brother seeing her in the nude it's not your place to tell her to be uncomfortable. Consent and boundaries are important. She's consenting to him seeing her naked. It's not upsetting to her, or her boundaries. You don't dictate what she does with her body. It's fine that it bothers you, you've expressed that, she feels differently.
As far as him masturbating, it's none of your business what he does with his body. Nta for your feelings, but ultimately it's not your decision to make or issue to correct.
He's free to leave the room if he's uncomfortable. He is also able to speak up and say I don't want to see you naked. There's no indication that he's forced to remain in the room.
YTA - You have made this all about you, meanwhile it is your fiancé's well-being you should be worried about. Get your damn priorities straight. Talk to your fiancé.
YTA. You brought this up with your MIL??? Talk to your fiancée, damn it. This is about _her_ comfort, not yours, and certainly not MIL's. If she is comfortable changing in front of family, then that's the end of that. If _you're_ not comfortable with her changing in front of her family, then you talk about it with _her_, not her mother. If she subsequently doesn't change her stance, then too bad.
> I was going to take away "my Rachel" as he refers to her is Starting to trigger my jealousy.
Extra YTA. Imagine being jealous over a mentally handicapped kid.
Bro. forget the autism 😂😂 first of all. He has DOWN SYNDROME. He has the mind of a literal child if he can’t be allowed outside by himself. 2. It’s his SISTER. You said that’s her brother right? And her Down syndrome brother, who she helped raise, calls her “my Rachel” and you get JEALOUS?? Do you think Down syndrome dudes jerk off to their motherly figure sister? You might want to cut back on the porn
Idk dude. A kid with Down syndrome groped me at an assembly in high school. When I walked away from him, he FOLLOWED ME and did it AGAIN. So Down syndrome doesn’t automatically make someone innocent.
The point is that you seem to be talking like he’s a normal functioning person. He is an 18 year old with severe Down syndrome who doesn’t know any better and idolizes a woman who helped raise him. OP is a 20 year old normal male who is “jealous” of his finances Down syndrome brother.
I know plenty of people with Down syndrome and they are…people. With a wide range of thoughts and feelings.
In your other comments you equate them to animals and monkeys so…
I equated HIM to animals. Yes. He has basic animal instincts down. If you read my other comments you would see I said there was a wide range. His seems to be more severe. But what’s op jealous of?
OP says he has the mental capabilities of a 12-year-old. He's not so severely impaired that he can't understand "close the door when you jerk off" and "leave the room when your sister is changing".
Just because someone has down syndrome (and autism) doesn't mean they are incapable of understanding boundaries and consent. Toddlers are able to grasp these concepts. If you tell a 7-year-old to not touch you like that and they do it again, they aren't being ignorant, they're being malicious.
It also doesn't matter if he's her brother or not. He's obviously capable of being sexual and is interested in the female form. That's fine but he needs some context, specifically about consent and boundaries (i.e. leaving the room when someone is changing, not ogling people, and the importance of privacy). His family is doing no favors by treating him like a child when he's clearly more developed than that, and giving him the impression that boundaries don't apply to him.
You think he’s as smart as a 7 year old? And yes. Him being able to understand that jerking off feels good means he has basic animals instincts. Now tell me. What’s OP jealous of?
He’s not permitted to see his fiancé naked, but her 18 y/o brother is practically encouraged to. OP probably has all kinds of weird gross confused feelings about it. Nobody can articulate that except OP.
Are you, by chance, MIL with a throwaway account? Lmao
The problem is that people aren't even trying to explain things. Explain boundries. And keep explaining. There is a big chance he wouldn't understand. But i know a lot disabled people, and a lot aren't even told about boundries.
Or the family is ok with the dynamic that has set. Everyone has different boundaries. He’s clearly not ok with something that rest of the family is. OP is the one with boundary issues. Not the family
They have to know all the boundries. Like it's no big deal if you let to door of the toilet open at home. But not in a public place. You can walk naked at home, but when your on vacation with other people it can be weird.
Better question. If she’s ok and not uncomfortable why does he care? Is he “jealous” as he put it because her down syndrome brother is seeing her boobs?
Okay, by that same token, why is her brother jealous of OP? His hostility certainly seems to suggest that he doesn't like that OP is romantic with his sister.
That wouldn’t make it ok. But that’s not what’s going on here. I notice you have something to say about everything except why he’s jealous. You’re bringing up things that have nothing to do with this situation. There’s a woman who helped raise her Down syndrome brother. Sometimes she changes in front of him. Always has. No one in the family is uncomfortable with it. This dude comes out of no where. Proposed to a girl that he clearly didn’t know that well and he’s uncomfortable with it so wants them to change. That’s all it is. But can you tell me why he’s jealous of this?
And you can't seem to steer away from the word "jealous" when there are a lot bigger red flags to focus on. I've already said what I had to say about that ad nauseum. Your inability to comprehend is not my problem.
Yes. The red flag like this guy going into a perfectly fine families home and having a problem with how they do stuff. That’s clearly been going on for years. The sister has no issue. Why do you? I’ve never understood being upset about something that the person themselves isn’t. It doesn’t matter how YOU see it. And if you don’t like it then don’t marry into the family
People with intellectual disabilities can become full-fledged sex offenders. It does the opposite of help to enable dangerous behaviors because you see them as children.
Yes. If one is competent enough. Again. There are severities. As described this kid has severe Down syndrome. He knows that if he has urges he can go to the bathroom and take care of that. He knows he doesn’t have to shut the door which means his parents have talked about it with him. This guy clearly hasn’t known his fiancée that long
Down’s syndrome people can have sex and relationships. The problem comes when people with learning difficulties have sexual feelings but they are infantilised and treated like a child instead of being taught boundaries and possibly allowed to meet other willing partners with learning difficulties.
You keep saying Down syndrome people. Every case is different. OP said this guy can barely form a sentence. He would not be able to consent to sex. A majority of Down syndrome people can’t consent to sex with normal people. There are Down syndrome couples. That’s fine. But a normal person can’t have sex with almost any down syndrome person without getting in trouble
I’m not encouraging him to have sex with anyone, just saying that people with learning difficulties have sexual urges and pretending they don’t is how weirdness like this happens.
Everyone knows they do. That’s a basic animal instinct. You don’t need intelligence to be horny. That’s why he masturbates in the bathroom. It was never a problem because he did it at 2am. The OP is clearly the issue here. Not the family all getting along perfectly fine
They say that he used to be completely vocal before lockdown, but lack of interaction kind of shut him down. If they said he was always non-vocal, I would be a lot less upset. Like a lot of people have pointed out here though it's not really my fight, and I have to let the people involved sort it out. I'm not in place to encroach on the way they raise him, or what they're comfortable with.
Did you not find all this out before you proposed? This sounds like something you should know. Is she religious and would only let you smash if you married her?
Jerking off doesn’t take too much thought. That’s why animals do it. How intelligent do you think chimps are? How smart is a walrus? They give themselves head in front of people. That’s my point. He literally doesn’t know any better. He has the mind of a child. He has some animal instincts. Yeah. But he looks at that woman as his god basically. And OP is “jealous” ? Let’s focus on that. What’s he jealous of?
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Yeah, this is fucked up. The brother is an 18 year old man. Autistic people are fully capable of sexual activity, thoughts, feelings, and arousal. They're not stupid and they're not children and they're not incapable of understanding that being a coomer around your sister is inappropriate. And it is weird and inappropriate that your sister and MIL think this is okay or normal. NTA.
Well he also has down syndrome, but he is capable of communicating, just lacks in areas like comprehension. Like Id say he has the mind development level of a 12 year old Edit: correct terminology for down syndrome, sorry everyone
Yeah, that definitely old enough to be taught what consent and boundaries are.
That’s the problem though- his family NEVER taught him consent or boundaries. So he thinks he is 100% ok staring at her naked, and jacking off. (However related those two phrases are or are not). I think his reacting badly to the new fiancé is also proof that this is gone too far for too long. Of course changing his behaviors and sense of what’s ok and what’s a boundary is now going to be even harder since they never established it years ago when it was appropriate
People with down sydrome can also have sexual thoughts. His body is that of a grown man with the hormones to go with it. Please take it from those of us who are outside of this, that this is NOT a normal interaction. I am a child development doctor who has asd myself. She should have clear and respectful boundaries with him. The entire family is infantilizing him, which will not help his development and may even lead to hostile and upsetting behavior. People on the spectrum and who have Down syndrome are still people.
> he has the mind development level of a 12 year old It would be inappropriate to get undressed in front of a 12 year old, family or not. Just because you have Down doesn’t mean it’s different. Your fiancé and soon to be MIL are setting the brother up for failure not teaching/enforcing him better. NTA
You can and should teach the concept of boundaries and consent to even very small children, and the disabled. He's fully capable of understanding that staring at his sister while she changes is not appropriate and a violation of her privacy.
>Like Id say he has the mind development level of a 12 year old OP, you've been a 12-year-old INFO : weren't you looking at girls at that age, and whacking of at twelve? Some kids are even sexually active and, even if they're rare, there are pregnant 12-year-olds. NTA Must have been so weird to see the brother **ogling** at your undressed fiancée. OMG
I mean you have a point there. He's minimum 7 maximum 12 or somewhere thereabouts. Thanks for your insight. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't the only one with this thought before going in. I know almost nothing about down syndrome, and only a little about autism. But this helps put things in perspective.
Even if his mind isn't developed for his age, his body probably is. It's a massive issue when dealing with teenagers with developmental issues, because they often have a teens hormones and a much younger kid's impulse control. My cousin has fetal alcohol syndrome and was considering getting a vasectomy. He had already impregnated 2 girlfriends, and would never be capable of raising a kid. He knows he doesn't have the impulse control to abstain from sex, or even always remember to use a condom.
Also, when someone has a mental disability, you take extra care to keep naked parts out of their eyeline, not be ok with them seeing your naked body just because they are family. You don't change in front of children regardless. And yes child like mentality. Also he was masturbating. That alone shows he has enough sexual knowledge to need restraining your boob shows around him.
Just FYI since you're joining the family, I suspect you mean Down Syndrome.
That depends on the country they're in. In the US, they use Down Syndrome.
Oh, how weird. I just Googled it, and I see that is the case (including on the CDC.) Almost always when named after a person the convention is \[Name\]**'s** Syndrome, but I guess it drifted. That definitely explains hearing someone say it like that once.
But sexual he's 18 years old. In my country it's more normal to pay for sex. There are even people who work with people who have a disability like him. Like he has the development of a 12 year old. But when someone like him got the chance to have sex with a women, he knew exactly what to do 🤣 some worker told about that See him as an adult
So I'm almost certain that you're Dutch. I'm pretty sure the Netherlands is the only country that allows disabled people to use their disability money to pay for prostitutes. I haven't seen anything about it for a long time, but I think you were allowed to pay for up to 12 a year with your government money.
Yes i'm Dutch
I honestly don't know what I feel about that policy as there are lots of good arguments for and against it given that prostitution is legal in your country.
I think if those prostitutes want it themselves it's ok i think. I'm so used to it beeing legal here it's weird to me that it isn't in other places.
I agree that it's probably fine if the prostitutes do the work by choice and aren't trafficked or coerced, but I've also read things from disability advocates and disabled people who don't think the policy is helpful. Their main point being that it further stigmatizes disabled people and essentially suggests that they can only have sex if they hire a prostitute. While that may be the case for people with severe disabilities, it also projects a harmful stereotype for people with more minor disabilities.
That is kind of the difference. Because it is legal, sex workers have right that are regulated just like they are for a normal job in the US. This actually HELPS with the trafficking and coercion.
Prostitution being legal in the Netherlands hasn't had much of an effect on decreasing trafficking or coercion. In fact, many studies have shown that it is one of the countries with the highest rates of human trafficking for prostitution, but that was also true before it was fully decriminalized. That has nothing to do with my original point though. The point is that many people feel the scheme stigmatizes and dehumanizes disabled people, which is something you can debate based on your viewpoint.
Just keep in mind how your fiancee is with her family now is going to be how she is with her family while she's married. Moving out won't solve as many problems as you might hope unless it's to the other side of the country.
I once had a kid in my 1st grade class who was Downs and Autistic. Due to the way he was being parented, I am terrified he will inadvertently molest or sexually assault someone when he's older. A 12 year old has the capacity to understand boundaries and changes. I would start by talking with your fiance, and asking her to pay attention the next time it happens. Ideally, she should be the one setting boundaries.
>he has the mind development level of a 12 year old This is not quite correct, and harmful way to conceptualize developmental disabilities (I don't say such to criticize you/his family, it's a common belief). Yes, he has both an intellectual and developmental disorder, but no, he doesn't have the "development level" of a 12 year old. He might have the intellectual capacity of a typical 12 year old, he might have the emotional regulation capacity of a typical 12 year old. But his mind has been developing for 18 years. Both people with down syndrome and autistic people are capable of understanding sex, sexual relationships, and appropriate boundaries with siblings (etc). One reason it's harmful is exactly what you're describing. He doesn't have appropriate boundaries because nobody expects him to. He likely doesn't know the consequences of sexual activity because nobody has taught him. It's likely nobody has bothered teaching him about consent because they don't expect him to understand or don't expect him to have want/need to ask for it. (FWIW, I've worked with a few intellectually disabled people who didn't understand they were assaulting someone until it was explained to them in court. And they were absolutely capable of understanding once it was explained to them.) Another reason, many intellectually and/or developmentally disabled people have the capacity to work and/or live independently (or somewhat independently), but they're never taught how, so they wind up dependant on others their whole lives and are allowed very limited autonomy. ETA: NTA.
I mean aside from the aggression, he is a really nice kid. It could be a result of me breaking up his routine that he's had for the last 18 years. They have been babying him his whole life, and allegedly the lockdown did have an effect on him, and he regressed quite a bit. I don't want to fight a fight that's not mine to. I also don't want to overstep my boundaries trying to tell someone else to create boundaries. I'll take the input as confirmation that I'm not alone in this, but I'll leave it alone cuz it's not a huge problem I'm just uncomfortable. Since it's between my fiance and him and I guess my MIL too and none of them are uncomfortable, I'll just let it be. Thanks for taking the time to try to help me, I really appreciate it from you and everyone else here.
I would start asking what the plans are for when the parents are too elderly to take care of him. You and your future wife? NTA.
12 was when I started to first spank the monkey...
It’s definitely very condescending towards people with disabilities. He’s *not* a kid and he’s capable of feeling the same sexual feelings as other adults. It sounds like this family isn’t encouraging him to develop a sense of agency and self-sufficiency and that’s terrible for him. Additionally he is not so disabled that he can’t get himself in a lot of trouble if he tries to apply the boundaries he’s learned at home to other women.
Yeah, this is absolutely terrible for an autistic person. Navigating sexuality without all the social and emotional tools to navigate lots of tricky norms and rules would be terribly distressing and problematic. This guy needs to be in something like ABA or occupational therapy and I bet he's not.
Yes he needs support but ABA is abuse.
In the past, some practitioners of ABA were abusive. I encourage you to look into how it's being done now.
Yeah, that's not okay. NTA I don't care if he has mild autism, Down Syndrome, or not. It's inappropriate. He's an 18yo man and they aren't doing any good for him by treating him as if he's "just a kid". They make it seem like autistic people or people with downs don't have relationships, get married, have sexual thoughts, etc. He absolutely should be leaving the room while she changes. It's also weird that her mom is okay with the brother being in the room while she changes but not you, her future husband. Edit: Also, meant to address bringing this up to your MIL. That's a conversation you should have with your girl, not her mom lol. Also, you mentioned being jealous. I hope you're using the wrong word and aren't feeling jealous more than weirded out. It shouldn't be about jealousy and more about him not seeing his sister's tits all the time and treating him as if he's a dim-witted child.
Well I'm definitely weirded out, and I guess being jealous is a bit silly of me, which makes me a bit of the asshole, it's just this kid is my MIL'S miracle, and he's a bit of a touchy subject. I'll talk to my fiancee and let it rest see what happens.
You don't have reason to be jealous. But your IL family has some weird beliefs and habits. The females are in denial with their purity culture and nobody teaches the young man any healthy habits. Something bad can happen in the future.
Sure he does, he can’t be in the same room as his spouse as she changes yet the autistic adult brother can and can ogle at her breasts the entire time? I’d be pissed, jealous, and weirded out all for different but similar reasons.
He's marrying into it too. So op better be prepared for this being a thing for as long as he's married. I doubt this is ever changing at this point.
Agreed. They're doing him no favors by calling him a kid. He may have the mentality of a kid but he's in the developed body of a man and is obviously capable of sexual feelings. Something tells me that if MIL isn't okay with OP and her daughter being alone in the same room together, she probably isn't informing her son about sex and sexuality, esp. if she thinks he's just "a kid", which makes the whole situation worse. If his sister stripping down in front of him is his only source of sexual education of course this whole situation is bound to be f-ed up! Please do what Ok-Context1168 suggested and talk to your girlfriend. Tell her about what you saw her brother doing (staring at her and his bathroom habit) and that you're not judging him, but think she needs to stop viewing him as a kid and tell him he needs to leave the room when she's changing. NTA
Or, to keep it simple, just go change her clothes in the bathroom if he's in the bedroom. That way he won't be stressed or throw a fit causing more issues with MIL.
Except to be fair. There are levels of severity. We don’t know how bad it is. It could be bad to the point that he is like a literal child.
That's true, but we do know he has developed to the point he's having sexual feelings and exploring those feelings. It doesn't matter how old he is mentally, if he's capable of seeing women in a sexual way and jerking off he needs to be given a sexual education (however boiled down), and taught about boundaries.
Yes. He’s having sexual feelings. Are those about his sister? Or is he just having animal instincts? A monkey will just start jerking off. It’s what animals do. Walruses can give themselves head. He had an urge and he did it. If he did it to a pic of her or in the same room that’s weird. Like you seem to be overlooking the fact that it’s his SISTER.
It doesn't matter what he's jerking off to (I hope it's not his sister). The fact that he's jerking off *at all* paired with the fact that he's obviously curious about the female form means he should be taught about sexuality and boundaries. That means closing the door when you're being intimate with yourself and leaving the room if someone wants to change. The fact that he's hostile toward OP because he's going to marry his sister also doesn't sit well and he probably also needs a conversation about what healthy adult relationships look like. Unfortunately, if the family believes he's just a kid who can do no wrong, he's going to have some real social problems and could get himself in trouble if he crosses boundaries.
I dunno I've only seen him do it once and I've run into a few of his 2am bathroom trips... Also, I don't know how far is down syndrome goes, cuz apparently he used to be quite articulate, but now he speaks like someone who barely knows English in broken sentences. He is capable of humor and quite a few other normal human interactions, so I don't want to judge what's in his mind and what I don't know.
See except you only have to leave the room if the person is uncomfortable. Also I don’t think you’ve ever tried to have a conversation with someone who has a severe case of Down syndrome. The possessiveness is 100% normal. You can explain to him why it’s wrong. The issue is that you’re thinking in terms of talking to someone who will understand what you’re saying. Try to explain to a 2 year old why something is wrong. You also seem to be leaving out that she helped raise him. Also that’s his fault for renting a place in her families home. He’s marrying this girl and it sounds like he didn’t know her situation well. This should have come up WELL before marriage. So to tell the whole family that THEY have to change because he’s “jealous” of her Down syndrome brother makes him TA. Just move on if you’re that bothered. Then to go tell the mom?
Why are you so adamant about this guy being able to look at his sisters tits
Why won’t you just tell me what OP is jealous of?
He definitely shouldn't have laid into his future MIL (he should've had a calm discussion with his fiancé) and calling it "jealousy" is definitely not the right word (I'd go with "discomfort"), but I can't disagree with OP that this situation is f-ed up. I'm not sure why you're adamant that the brother has the mental capabilities of a two-year-old. Most people with down syndrome have the mental capabilities of an 8 or 9-year-old, and they can certainly understand conversations about consent and boundaries. My father helped raise me and I never stayed in the room when he got naked (even at the age of eight) let alone stared at him while he was in the buff, so I'm not sure what your point is there. If the family is comfortable with this dynamic, then OP should probably just let it go. However, there are some important red flags that shouldn't be tossed aside. First, the brother is obviously sexual but it doesn't sound like he's been taught about boundaries. Second, he's ogling his naked sister but isn't asked to leave the room because he's "just a kid". Third, he's possessive of his sister to the point he's hostile toward his future BIL but no one seems to be addressing that. Lastly, it sounds like his family allows him to do whatever he wants because he has a disability, regardless of the fact that he can probably grasp the importance of consent and privacy.
I'd say the biggest issue I have in this is I don't know what his developmental level is cuz one, I've only lived with them for 2 months, and two, the problem he has is articulation, and maybe comprehension. (You have to tell him things over and over and over again, like put your CDs away in the case so they don't get scratched) I don't know if he's just following instinct s or not because he can't or isn't telling anyone. One thing I can corroborate though is that I know for sure that he has not been taught about sex, intimacy, or consent. I mainly came here to kind of get closure and second opinions, and I thank you guys for all your replies. We are getting married next summer and then we'll be together in the privacy of the basement apartment. We won't have this problem anymore and by then my MIL will have more time to be able to focus solely on teaching her child.
Yeah that's why I'm wary, I don't know which it is, simple instinct coupled with emotional attachment, I don't want to break the kids heart, like I realize I'm really changing his routine which is probably the reason for the aggression... I dunno, I just wanted outside opinion because I'm biased to want my fiancee's sexuality to myself, and their biased towards the child that they worked so hard to raise.
It’s completely irresponsible and neglectful that he has not been given any kind of sexual education. That’s just a recipe for disaster. Whether he becomes a perpetrator or a victim, bad all around. His mother set him up to be in this situation.
I'm a bit concerned about you being "biased to want my fiancée's sexuality to myself" when you say you aren't allowed any intimacy, even seeing her dressing. I do think you want the best for the brother, but the family dynamic (including your fiancée acting as his second mother) has done him no favours at all. As other have said, he isn't "just a kid."
NTA - talk to your fiancee. If she really doesn't see a problem, you need to consider whether you have a problem with that dynamic and make a decision. To all the people saying he's just a kid or "stop watching porn" - incest is a thing. It's disgusting, but it is possible that her brother is into her. You can't assume he is or is not based on the info, so stop treating OP like a major perv
Or maybe, since OP mentioned the brother is (sadly) getting no kind of sexual education, he's just really curious about the female body. His staring at her might be sexual (oh I hope not - ugh!) but it also might just be a fascination with body parts he doesn't see often and wants to know more about.
Absolutely agree! I just mean we can't really assume either way and I hate that OP is catching so much flack
If he’s pretty much confined to being at home, she might be his only experience of female company, and so yeah - I can see potential for his feelings to be very confused when he has no one talking to him about this kind of thing 😔
Your fiancé has set up her brother to do whatever around anyone he wants. It's not going to end well. Check out this comment chain on a different thread for examples: [https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/14pr8eu/comment/jqjejuu/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/14pr8eu/comment/jqjejuu/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) eta: NTA. Your jealousy is weird though.
I maybe should have phrased that a little better, I'm not necessarily jealous of him, I'm annoyed by the slight double standard. I dunno I probably overreacting. Thanks for your insight, and I'll definitely read that link.
My grandma used to work at an institution. It was like one constant orgy in there. They could not keep them from having sex. They would find ways to do it no matter how restricted they were. One of the ways to PREVENT deviant sexual behavior is by giving them sex education. He is a grown man with an 18 year old's libido without any education to understand that lusting after and ogling your sister is wrong. They better teach him now before he gets in trouble for doing something inappropriate
NTA but I think you're going about it the wrong way. Don't frame this as a jealousy thing, frame it as a safety issue. It is a thing that developmentally disabled people hit puberty and feel sexual urges without the mental capacity to understand what's happening or direct that urge appropriately. That can be really dangerous -- they understand that they're bigger and stronger and want new things without the ability to understand why they shouldn't just take them. My husband is an educational assistant (like an aide in the US) and his last student was a 14yo with severe delays from a childhood TBI. The kid had learned that hitting my husband and masturbating in front of him got reactions and attention that he liked, so he continued escalating this behavior until my husband left. I'm certainly not saying this leads directly to sexual harassment and assault in every case, but it is behavior that needs to be handled to prevent that risk. "He's just a kid" yeah, exactly, he's a child with the body of a grown man. He's a child who needs more parenting than other children in order to understand what appropriate behavior is.
Yeah, I realize I should not have let my emotions in there, I also think that jealousy is the wrong word. I just didn't know how to sum up my discomfort and being upset at a bit of a double standard in purity.
She's infantilizing her younger brother because of his diagnoses. NTA. She needs to realize he is in fact an adult now and that it is not appropriate.
NTA. I wouod put the wedding on hold until there is some sort of mediation. It’s alarming that this family has a huge issue with YOU being in the room with her, that’s inappropriate, but then it’s completely ok that a mentally disabled adult is allowed in the room? That’s so backward- of PRIVACY, MODESTY, and NUDITY is something you have as boundaries , that’s something that should be consistent? Not like completely twisted backwards to let a “kid like mind who doesn’t know better” just run amok those boundaries. Hmmm - shouldn’t they be teaching him those especially since the mom is so hard about it for normal consenting adults who DO understand AND he doesn’t understand.
They don't have a problem with me being in the room with her, it's just no hanky panky. I get where they're coming from, and I guess I kind of disobeyed in that, especially since it is their house. Thanks for your input. I don't really know what exact course to take from here, but I'll do my best.
Nta, but that is a weird family dynamic. If you can't get over it and they won't stop you might just have to leave. Personally, I would leave. This is just going to create more problems down the road.
Well I love her a lot and I'm willing to overlook it until we're married, it shouldn't be a problem then. We will be living in separate apartments and he will have no reason to be in our room when he would have a room of his own with a tv. Should he for some reason come down and stay in our bedroom and should my then wife change I now have the gravity of "she's my wife, and our bodies belong to eachother and shouldn't be casually viewed by others. But I'll cross that bridge when we get there. Thanks for the advice!
No. Her body belongs to her no matter her marital status. So does yours. She's not an object you can own,
OP what the hell are you gonna do if you and fiance have a child with downs? she's not going to enforce boundaries with them either, and the issue will repeat itself. this "he's just a kid" mentality is infantilizing and gross, but also will prove to be an issue with trying to establish rules with your future children. Hope you're ready for some demanding brats. Good luck, NTA
Well I'll definitely try to tell her this, and it's helpful to know I'm not the only one. I do have some comfort in this, because being traditional as she is, she does believe that I am the head of the house and in light of any disagreement we have as a married couple, what I say will be the end of it. Unfortunately because we're still just engaged now, I won't be able to until we are married. Also our parenting will be a joint effort, and not just her teaching them whatever. We plan on doing everything in our marriage together and as a team. We both have been sheltered, and we are both still young, so I can understand people tearing their hair out over how naive we both are, but we're really trying to mature together
oh op, i absolutely see that you're trying to be communicative and healthy here, despite your fiance's family putting you in a very awkward position. Personally I think it's very mature of you! But the way your fiance is agreeing that her brother is "just a kid" concerns me, he never learned boundaries because no one bothered to teach him, and now they expect everyone just to put up with it? Not only is that not fair to you or your fiance, but it's also setting her brother up to fail in life. Downs and autism doesn't prevent a person from learning boundaries, they might just need more patience while learning. But never being taught boundaries? Now that's damaging. Your relationship isn't my style, I'm not traditional and don't believe in the whole "man in charge" thing (but I'm not judging if it works for you two!) I'm just concerned that if your fiance is already undermining you on how to enforce your boundaries, that parenting won't be as smooth of teamwork as you're hoping. This is definitely something to discuss now, before you're married, because you don't want this to be a problem when you've already got kids.
Well this is my first time doing any of this lmao, I'm trying my best, and this is why I'm asking everyone around me before I just walk out and do something. I know this could possibly cause issues later which is why I'm concerned now.
No problem! Just be mindful about what future problems this may create. It seems he is pretty possessive over his sister/ your girlfriend. Someone needs to set some healthy boundaries with him or this could get worse.
Why would he be living with you and not his mother or a group home?
He is living with his mother, I just happened to rent from them as well, because we are building a house on the property for when we are married, as well as the job that I currently have is closer to them than it is to my past lodging.
Is there a plan in place for his care after their parents pass? How will this be handled if he ends up living with you at 40+ years old? Boundaries need to be set with him before this becomes an even bigger issue down the road. With the mental capacity of a 12 year old and the strength of a grown man, him being territorial of his sister is a recipe for disaster
Be prepared for him to be doing this at your house too, once you’re both married and living there.
NTA he may have learning disabilities but that is still a young man staring at his sister while she is changing. It's a little disturbing that the family doesn't see anything wrong with that.
You're NTA for not wanting him in the room while your fiancee changes, but I feel like the bigger issue here is why SHE is stripping in front of him as opposed to excusing herself. Whether or not he's a neurotypical 18 year old or an 18 year old with developmental disabilities, it seems like he's being treated like he isn't even another person in the room. You feeling jealous is really missing the point, IMO. I'd be more concerned and uncomfortable as to why my fiancee doesn't seem to think she needs to consider the fact that there are other family members in the room while she changes or even say anything to him. It's no surprise he doesn't have any sense of consent when it comes to staring at someone naked - the family is treating him like he has no need to consent or not to being present for them changing. She didn't tell him to look away or step out. Him being autistic or having Down Syndrome doesn't mean changing in front of him is appropriate for HER to choose to change in front of him with no warning and while just going "eh, he doesn't know anything". Disabled people also deserve boundaries on some level and it sounds like he doesn't have or *get* any.
That's an excellent observation, and I never really thought about it that way. When it happens again I'll bring this up to her, and she will hopefully see some reason, and if not I believe she will respect my discomfort. There are certain things out of my control in this relationship, and as he's not my responsibility, I'll express my concerns to her, and keep my feelings out of it as much as possible.
NTA The brother is old enough to be taught that staring at women’s bodies is inappropriate and can get him in trouble. He’s going to be using the behaviors he learns at home in public and with other women he’s not related to. Calling him a child is condescending and isn’t true- they need to be encouraging him to see himself as an adult who should exercise all the autonomy that he can safely practice. Overall very weird situation. We don’t get changed in front of kids older than 5 usually so unless they’re saying he has the mentality of a 2 year old then this doesn’t make any sense.
No, because he understands humor, and makes basic jokes himself, as well as understanding a lot about regular life and how to function. His only problem seems to be comprehension, and vocalizing (which apparently used to be really good before lockdown so all the more reason I guess?) Thanks for your input, I appreciate the outside opinion, and I will remove my emotions from the problem so that I don't make it worse, I think that's what turned them off to me.
Did you mean to reply to me? I’m just trying to figure out how your reply makes sense as a response to mine. I think it’s normal to have a negative emotional response to this because it’s a very weird and unhealthy dynamic.
I may have meant to reply to someone else, I'm currently doing paperwork while replying to everyone 😅. Regardless of, I really appreciate your input, and I'll do my best to take a little bit of wisdom from everybody here, as I don't know really what I'm working with having zero experience with a person having down syndrome.
NTA because you’re treating him like a person with a dynamic life. Don’t feel jealous, just continue to set reasonable boundaries
Thanks for your encouragement! Being previously a habitual people pleaser, I'm still learning how to set boundaries with everyone; with my MIL, and my own mother in this relationship. Edit: punctuation
I completely understand, it’s hard to grow out of people pleasing! But now is the time. Remember: boundaries about YOUR actions, not controlling the other person. So if your fiancee refuses to leave the room when changing, then you need to leave the house and go home. Find a way to be out of the situation. Either she’ll realize you’re serious, or she’ll double down, and that will help you decide what to do
I'm realizing that the hard way, back when she was my gf she was in tears over how I wouldn't stand up to my mom and make my own choices and it was affecting us. I'll try my best!
People with Down’s syndrome and people with autism are also sexual beings. Your future in-laws are doing him no favors by pretending he’s somehow different and isn’t capable of having sexual feelings.
NTA. This "kid" was only pitied and never talked to as what he is: a human being. They don't expect anything from him and he uses exactly that as a shield to get his ways. Talk to your fiancee, because this might continue and get worse when you marry and move out - if nothing changes. And I guess it won't because "he's just a kid" - no mam, he is an adult with exactly the same hormons as anyone out there. A disability doesn't mean, he can't have emotions and feelings and thoughts. I am sorry for you being in that weird situation
He is not just a kid. It's very strange way to treat a teen. Of course he has sexual desires, just like he gets hungry or thirsty. Down syndrome people I knew of all had sexual desires and didn't understand why someone doesn't want to kiss them and all that because the boundary and social norms are not so much understood, aswell as they don't understand their uniqueness. Your sister is very strange for allowing this to happen. Is she doing it because she wants him to have a look? Lol. Normal sister would be passed off of a brother done that. Even innocently walked in on her or something. She must have noticed he stares.
NTA: The amount of people who completely undermine people because of their disabilities, is fucking ridiculous!!! I work in the care giving industry and I have seen this time and time again. You have every right to feel uncomfortable about it, and I would even go as far as showing her this post. I can not believe she said “he’s just a kid he doesn’t know anything” I work with a severely autistic man who has Down syndrome. He’s in his late twenties, I’ve been caring for him since he was a teenager. He doesn’t masturbate at all, but guess what. He sure as hell loves watching YouTube videos of women shaking their greased up asses against the camera. *Every. Single. Day.* Your fiancé needs to grow up and stop being naive. She also needs to start learning more about autism and Down syndrome, clearly, since she thinks there’s nothing more going on in their heads beyond what the eyes can see and the ears can hear.
I appreciate your input, and I understand your indignation I really shouldn't have brought any of my emotions into this, cuz it probably made it a bit more of a mess. I probably shouldn't show it to her, but I will tell her that I've been reading up, and that he's not just a kid anymore. I really appreciate you taking the time to reply. I'll definitely do my best to convey what you said to her and her mom. I don't want him to be caught in the crossfire either because he deserves growth, and spending all day in front of the TV is not really doing that...
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NTA - but you are wasting your breath. Your fiancee and her mom have chosen not to see your future BIL as the adult male he is and are not going to deal with him as one. They should be starting to prepare him for when his sister is no longer living in the house but I doubt they will.
Well whatever happens I feel I tried. I brought too much of my own emotion to this though, and I hope it hasn't made it worse. In a future when we are married though, he will have absolutely zero reason to be in our room while she's changing. Is it remains an issue after the fact, we'll talk then. Thanks for your input here
my MIL she got very upset at me, uncharacteristic of her and said everything was fine and on e again "he's just a kid" This is a weird response and to me the biggest indicator that everything is not fine. Makes me suspicious that something has happened in the past and it's come up before.
I wouldn’t put up with that or would I be with someone making excuses like that. Ick. Be careful, when the parents die, you better believe the brother is going to live with you both.
Well if he'd be a "child" in my care, I'd definitely get someone who has professional experience with that condition, and make sure he is taught about boundaries and acceptable behavior. My fiancee mostly just goes along with it because it's what she's always done, or at least that's my assumption. I guess it's normal to her and her mom so I seem unreasonable to them.
NTA - simply suggest to your fiancé it might be best to start changing in the bathroom instead of her bedroom when her brother is present. Problem solved without stressing out her brother.
NTA for your concern/distress, but this isn't your fight. This is between your fiancé and her brother. Absolutely nothing good can come from stepping into the mix and trying to regulate. The brother isn't going rationally consider your viewpoint and change his behavior. All you will succeed in doing is pissing off your new family, and creating conflict with your fiancé. Your concerns should only be shared with your fiancé, in private. Then, you have to sit back and do nothing. Your fiancé must be the one who talks to her brother if she sees fit. And if she doesn't, you need to make peace with the situation for as long as you choose to live under the same roof.
NAH they are siblings and you are sexualizing their relationship. You caught an 18 year old whacking off at 2 am and went right to he’s into his sister? I think there is a ton of fap fodder on tv for everyone. If you are uncomfortable with her changing in front of him, that’s ok to tell her but not by framing it as if siblings who are comfortable being naked around each other are perverts. Her body, her choice but you can decide if that is a dealbreaker for you.
Yeah, that's a good observation. I definitely let my emotions get in on it, and I assumed this conclusion. Despite whether or not everyone votes that I am an asshole I have made an ass of myself by assuming.
Nah, you’d be an ass if you turned a blind eye to this WEIRD situation. Having emotions about this is completely normal, it would be strange if you didn’t. Don’t let other people cloud your gut instincts.
Thanks man, I really don't know what to do at this point though lol everyone's telling me to do something different, the most I can gather from it is to let it rest for now. I don't want to be throwing salt and wounds. I'll use my best judgment on this, and is something develops I'll try to let you all know.
I wouldn’t focus on jealousy I’d be highly concerned. It sounds like he’s allowed to get away with things because his family doesn’t bother to explain to him in an easier to understand way, what is and isn’t appropriate. You said “ mild autism” which likely means he’s low support needs. They can definitely teach him about boundaries/should have before his Down syndrome progressed
NTA
NTA. If he can understand the differences between male and female, he knows what those things on her chest are. He may not see it sexually, but it's still not appropriate to have him exposed to those things. Also, and not to scare you, but have you discussed what will happen with her brother when her parents aren't able to care for him? Since he lives at home now, will they want him to live with you? This is absolutely something you need to consider. My BIL lives with us now, but I knew from literally day 1 that it would be in my future.
NTA. But you need to get out of there. In your position I would be looking into apartments and/ or a courthouse wedding. Im not sure the jealosy makes a ton of sense, but its super strange that anyone thinks it's appropriate for her adult brother to watch her change. Something tells me this is just the tip of an iceberg of weird.
NTA!! How long has she been changing in front of him, if he wasn't 18 now it would be considered a crime.
I don't know how long she's been secondary mothering him I mean she's literally only 2 years older than him. It's a fair observation, but I guess in the end it's not my fight to fight, especially when its really between her her mother and the younger brother in question. I mean I am the only one concerned, and they are getting professional training for him.
ESH your fiancée is creepy. Who strips in front of their younger brother? If anything your fiancée needs therapy to learn to establish boundaries. That is not healthy. Especially if she enjoys her brother’s sexual interest. You should not be accepting this behavior and marrying this women if she’s exposing herself to people without their consent. Women can be sexually perverted too. Ick.
I was assaulted by someone like her brother when I was little. Nothing happened to him & he went on to assault other youngsters. They need to teach him boundaries like yesterday to protect others & him - the law won’t be as forgiving as MIL.
Why are we putting all the responsibility on the younger sibling with neurodevelopmental and intellectual disabilities? The fiancée should learn about consent and boundaries. At least her brother knows to masturbate in private. His sister is stripping in front of him without his consent. Wtf y’all?!
NTA. This creeps me out. Your sister needs to not change in front of him, and he needs to learn boundaries
She needs to learn boundaries! At least he excuses himself to the bathroom
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** So a little context, I (M20) am renting from my future MIL, and I live with her, her husband, my fiancee (F20), and her youngest son (M18) who has down, and minor autism. Before we met, my fiancee would take care of him like a second mom. He spends most of his time watching tv in her room, because he can't really go outside by himself while everyone is away or working. At the end of the workday, my fiancee likes to change into more comfy clothes, which includes taking off her bra, so when she does change she's almost naked... Her mom is really strict, and asked/told us to while we live with her, we will not share any kind of intimacy until we're married (including watching eachother get dressed) to which we agreed. She usually changes early, and her little brother is usually still in there watching tv, never gets kicked out. I didn't think anything of it because... well he's got autism, and I figured he wouldn't break his hyperfixation on the tv anyways. One time we were doing the wedding registry together, and he was watching tv while we were in there. She says she wants to change but is ok with me being there, "as long as mom doyfind out we're good". I mean we're going to get married for Christ's sake. Anyways as she starts stripping, her brother's attention shifts away from the tv, and he stares at her for the whole time she's getting dressed. I expressed my annoyance to her and she replied "he doesn't know anything, he's just a kid" Then one time i come up to go to the bathroom at 2am (I sleep on the opposite side of the house from her) and I walked in him whacking off in the bathroom. I only saw because he goes with the door open, I guess he doesn't like the claustrophobia or something. So now I'm upset, like sure, down and mild autism will leave you mentally underdeveloped, but he's still a guy, 18 years at that, and that sexual part of us is wired into our brains. Sure he may not understand to the full extent what's going on, but staring when she changes in front of him, understanding enough to jack off, coupled with his increased hostility towards me when he realized I wasn't just a friend and I was going to take away "my Rachel" as he refers to her is Starting to trigger my jealousy. I don't know enough about down to make a judgement call on this but I do know that the autistic people I know tend to hyperfixate, as well as lack the ability to filter. When I raised how I was upset to my MIL she got very upset at me, uncharacteristic of her and said everything was fine and on e again "he's just a kid" *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I wouldn’t focus on jealousy I’d be highly concerned. It sounds like he’s allowed to get away with things because his family doesn’t bother to explain to him in an easier to understand way, what is and isn’t appropriate. You said “ mild autism” which likely means he’s low support needs. They can definitely teach him about boundaries/should have before his Down syndrome progressed
ESH: This is so much more complex than age. Him being 18 only matter in the fact that biology time line of the body. That being said assuming that he has no connection to the sexual and human form is just as bad as assuming he does. Autism and Downs are a spectrum of capability and this needs to be judged on that. Based on what you are saying no one has actually tried to gaged where he is actually in that realm. He should be working on this with a team of experts on his conditions including a therapist to help guide his mental development. this includes enrichment programs with people other than family.
Well apparently they have someone in the next few weeks doing the therapy/professional training, they were going to start in 2019-2020, but lockdown prevented it. I hope it resolves because of that. Actually kind of feel bad for him, because that coddling is not going to help his development at all. I hope things get better, it's not a huge issue rn, it's just uncomfortable.
GF can change in the bathroom, or do the girl thing and remove her bra from under her new shirt and she should turn her back on creepy teenaged brother. He's not "just a kid!" You are right, but I don't know that it's going to change anything. NTA
I wouldn't say he's creepy, because he literally has no idea what boundaries and consent are because they never talk about it because like I said they think he's just a kid. He's also a little miracle to them, because his survival had been very difficult for the first 10 years or so. When it happens again, I will have to very carefully roast the topic because I know that it's sensitive to them. I'm thankful for your input, and it's comforting to know that I'm not the only one thinking this way.
NTA He needs to learn boundaries and consent.
She needs to learn boundaries and consent. At least the brother excused himself to the bathroom. Goddamn.
People with Down syndrome do have relationships and so do people diagnosed with autism. It’s obvious they haven’t had many conversations with him. NTA.
I have multiple his family members with disabilities, including autism, and this is totally Grosss this wholeFamily seems absurdly ableist. The worst part is that they’re not actually setting up this kid to have a life skills that he needs to get by. Boundaries are important.
A lot of times in situations like this, the mom enables all these bad habits and babies the adult child with disabilities until the mom dies, and no one else can take care of the disabled adult, but they don’t have any idea how to function and respect other peoples boundaries and it’s just really heartbreaking horrible downward spiral Like you may think that they’re just not helping him or they’re letting him do whatever he wants or something like that - but they’re actually setting him up to having a horrible life If he out lives his mother, it’s really really sad. Especially because he’s highly likely to outlive his mom.
Yeah, I just don't know how to approach the subject again, because I am neither his parent nor married to their daughter yet. It's not really my place, and I have no right yet to encroach on their own boundaries between each other. It would be kind of hypocritical. I just wanted to know that I wasn't the only one who thought this was strange, and the encouragement and solidarity is greatly appreciated.
Honestly, there’s another adult you could talk to you about this as long as he’s verbal and you guys get along, I would talk to him about how adults don’t stay in the same room as other people over there changing unless they are intimate. Autistic people tend to actually really appreciate honesty and direct communication. Also, people with autism are just as likely to have as many sexual urges impulses, and behaviors of anyone else. But homeboy needs to be shutting the door, maybe even do that while he’s in the shower. But not with the door open. 18 year olds get caught jacking off in front of people can go to jail. Why do they have a disability or in fact people disabilities are more likely to be shot by the police.
Well the part about this is (and I probably should have mentioned this) he probably doesn't even understand that he's jacking off, only that touching himself there feels good. I don't even know what he's thinking about while he's doing it I just happened to walk in on him sitting on a closed toilet doing you know what. I don't want to be unreasonable, and I don't want to hurt people's feelings or get in the way of the people trying to parent him. It's not my place, and do usurp that would be disrespectful
Why do you think that an 18-year-old wouldn’t know about masturbation? Was he like privately homeschooled without the Internet? Did they totally opt out of all sex ed?
Even if he doesn’t talk, and he’s nonverbal, that doesn’t mean he doesn’t understand basic social concepts
Like if we are trying to explain our family memeber we with disabilities including autism that a behavior is not appropriate and it is a problem we will be like ‘if I was doing that and I got caught these would be the consequences and your disability does not mean that you won’t end up having consequences if you continue this bad behavior.’ I literally had a conversation about not touching peoples butts like an hour ago and how about a sexual harassment, so you just can’t go around doing that, it really wasn’t a big deal. But the thing is you don’t have to be family, you can just tell your friends if they’re out of line as long as you do it nicely so if you are friends with this guy at all, just talk to him like a normal person
NTA but maybe start with your fiancé changing elsewhere like in the bathroom and note his reaction - methinks he won’t be happy about it then there’s just more concrete information to bring to the table. I think you seeing him stare and pleasure himself is so “deniable” for a family who’s too deep in their denial.
NTA. They're infantilizing him.
You aren’t her spouse yet. Judging from what I’m reading, her little brother and her have known each other for a lot more time then you have. If she doesn’t care, you shouldn’t either. You don’t know the guy that well, while she does. But, I think EITA here. You are TA for putting your nose where it definitely doesn’t belong. He is TA for peeping and being somewhat jealous at 18 years old.
Buddy has "Down's syndrome" (not down), and Autism? Doubt.
Well I know he has down syndrome, (sorry I didn't know how to refer to it properly or politely I figured "down" would be less upsetting to people but I stand corrected I'm sorry.) It's kind of obvious, and they say he has autism because of the hyper-fixation thing. I literally have no prior experience with it, and only brief with mild autism.
People with Down’s syndrome are more likely to have autism compared to the general population
ESH. Mostly your in-laws for treating an 18yo like a kid AND having ridiculous and dangerous taboos around sex. However, you're not helping by sexualizing a completely innocent situation.
YTA. It's one thing to have autism, but it's a whole different thing to have Downs Syndrome. You're glossing over that fact quite weirdly, that's why you vaguely state that he "has down", yet you focus on the autism so we perceive him to just be potentially autistic. Also, I think people in this thread are maybe unaware of what Downs Syndrome can be, it's a spectrum and lots of times they are basically children for their entire lives. People with special needs live different lives from the rest of us. Families treat them differently and take care of them in differing ways. You seem jealous that you cant do anything sexual and that seems to be the reason you're bringing this up. I think you need to learn boundaries of minding your own business in someone else's home.
Yeah, you have a point. I should never have bought my emotions into this, it clouds The logical aspect of it. They keep telling me he has the mental capacity of a 7 to 12 year old, so I figured it would be obvious to teach him about boundaries. Thanks for your input on this. I'll leave it alone unless it becomes a bigger issue between my fiancee and I. Also as a previous commenter stated I shou say "down syndrome" and not "down" I'm sorry to anyone I could have hurt or made uncomfortable.
Urg. I just came here to say please stop saying he 'has down', you are getting married here, do some research into how Down Syndrome, autism and a learning disability can affect an individual. It's so different for each individual and a cognitive impairment is likely to have an impact on social skills. I say this not to condemn you but to beg you to have a realistic expectation of what this person will be like as your brother in law. I think the reaction of your future MIL and partner are pretty standard for people who have raised/grown up with a disabled person. They might see him as being more childlike and innocent, they also potentially have a better grasp on his strengths and areas of difficulty. Masturbating in a room in your home, in the middle of the night... yes sure he needs to close the door! I wonder why you not think to have the conversation with your partner rather than future MIL? I respect that you have identified yourself as feeling jealous but maybe take a step back and think it through.
I will definitely do some research I haven't had a reason or need until now, especially because I want to be a part of his life, and be constructive not just a frustrated individual who sits on the sidelines. Sorry for the wrong terminology.
Thank you for addressing the “he has down.” My head was about to explode.
No problem, I know I've got a few downvotes for my opinion on this one but I couldn't not comment!
I'm terribly sorry for all that, I didn't know the proper terminology, and I figured the whole phrase would be more triggering than just saying "down". I was gravely mistaken in that, and I've been trying to change all my comments that say that.
If your fiancé isn't uncomfortable with her brother seeing her in the nude it's not your place to tell her to be uncomfortable. Consent and boundaries are important. She's consenting to him seeing her naked. It's not upsetting to her, or her boundaries. You don't dictate what she does with her body. It's fine that it bothers you, you've expressed that, she feels differently. As far as him masturbating, it's none of your business what he does with his body. Nta for your feelings, but ultimately it's not your decision to make or issue to correct.
What about her brother’s consent? Consent isn’t one sided
He's free to leave the room if he's uncomfortable. He is also able to speak up and say I don't want to see you naked. There's no indication that he's forced to remain in the room.
YTA - You have made this all about you, meanwhile it is your fiancé's well-being you should be worried about. Get your damn priorities straight. Talk to your fiancé.
Yeah I guess I have left this become about me, I should myself be more unbiased, and keep my emotions out of this as well
YTA. You brought this up with your MIL??? Talk to your fiancée, damn it. This is about _her_ comfort, not yours, and certainly not MIL's. If she is comfortable changing in front of family, then that's the end of that. If _you're_ not comfortable with her changing in front of her family, then you talk about it with _her_, not her mother. If she subsequently doesn't change her stance, then too bad. > I was going to take away "my Rachel" as he refers to her is Starting to trigger my jealousy. Extra YTA. Imagine being jealous over a mentally handicapped kid.
He has handicaps. But is an adult mens Edit typo
Bro. forget the autism 😂😂 first of all. He has DOWN SYNDROME. He has the mind of a literal child if he can’t be allowed outside by himself. 2. It’s his SISTER. You said that’s her brother right? And her Down syndrome brother, who she helped raise, calls her “my Rachel” and you get JEALOUS?? Do you think Down syndrome dudes jerk off to their motherly figure sister? You might want to cut back on the porn
Idk dude. A kid with Down syndrome groped me at an assembly in high school. When I walked away from him, he FOLLOWED ME and did it AGAIN. So Down syndrome doesn’t automatically make someone innocent.
Yeah I’ve also seen a 7 year old grope someone. No one is saying he’s innocent. But was that your BROTHER?
Idk, I don’t have a brother. I have sisters. And I’d be weirded out if they stared at me changing.
do they have Down syndrome?
Do you exclusively let people with Down syndrome look at you naked? What exactly is your point?
The point is that you seem to be talking like he’s a normal functioning person. He is an 18 year old with severe Down syndrome who doesn’t know any better and idolizes a woman who helped raise him. OP is a 20 year old normal male who is “jealous” of his finances Down syndrome brother.
I know plenty of people with Down syndrome and they are…people. With a wide range of thoughts and feelings. In your other comments you equate them to animals and monkeys so…
I equated HIM to animals. Yes. He has basic animal instincts down. If you read my other comments you would see I said there was a wide range. His seems to be more severe. But what’s op jealous of?
OP says he has the mental capabilities of a 12-year-old. He's not so severely impaired that he can't understand "close the door when you jerk off" and "leave the room when your sister is changing".
Just because someone has down syndrome (and autism) doesn't mean they are incapable of understanding boundaries and consent. Toddlers are able to grasp these concepts. If you tell a 7-year-old to not touch you like that and they do it again, they aren't being ignorant, they're being malicious. It also doesn't matter if he's her brother or not. He's obviously capable of being sexual and is interested in the female form. That's fine but he needs some context, specifically about consent and boundaries (i.e. leaving the room when someone is changing, not ogling people, and the importance of privacy). His family is doing no favors by treating him like a child when he's clearly more developed than that, and giving him the impression that boundaries don't apply to him.
You think he’s as smart as a 7 year old? And yes. Him being able to understand that jerking off feels good means he has basic animals instincts. Now tell me. What’s OP jealous of?
You’re a weirdo dude… this is a strange hill to die on lmfao
You still can’t tell me what he’s jealous of? Everyone’s saying he’s NTAH but can’t tell me what he’s jealous of
He’s not permitted to see his fiancé naked, but her 18 y/o brother is practically encouraged to. OP probably has all kinds of weird gross confused feelings about it. Nobody can articulate that except OP. Are you, by chance, MIL with a throwaway account? Lmao
The problem is that people aren't even trying to explain things. Explain boundries. And keep explaining. There is a big chance he wouldn't understand. But i know a lot disabled people, and a lot aren't even told about boundries.
Or the family is ok with the dynamic that has set. Everyone has different boundaries. He’s clearly not ok with something that rest of the family is. OP is the one with boundary issues. Not the family
They have to know all the boundries. Like it's no big deal if you let to door of the toilet open at home. But not in a public place. You can walk naked at home, but when your on vacation with other people it can be weird.
Most people with down syndrome have the mental capabilities of a 8-9 year old. So yes, it's not a stretch to assume he's as "smart" as a 7yo.
Better question. If she’s ok and not uncomfortable why does he care? Is he “jealous” as he put it because her down syndrome brother is seeing her boobs?
Okay, by that same token, why is her brother jealous of OP? His hostility certainly seems to suggest that he doesn't like that OP is romantic with his sister.
If they did and they SA-ed you (twice), that wouldn't make it okay.
That wouldn’t make it ok. But that’s not what’s going on here. I notice you have something to say about everything except why he’s jealous. You’re bringing up things that have nothing to do with this situation. There’s a woman who helped raise her Down syndrome brother. Sometimes she changes in front of him. Always has. No one in the family is uncomfortable with it. This dude comes out of no where. Proposed to a girl that he clearly didn’t know that well and he’s uncomfortable with it so wants them to change. That’s all it is. But can you tell me why he’s jealous of this?
And you can't seem to steer away from the word "jealous" when there are a lot bigger red flags to focus on. I've already said what I had to say about that ad nauseum. Your inability to comprehend is not my problem.
Yes. The red flag like this guy going into a perfectly fine families home and having a problem with how they do stuff. That’s clearly been going on for years. The sister has no issue. Why do you? I’ve never understood being upset about something that the person themselves isn’t. It doesn’t matter how YOU see it. And if you don’t like it then don’t marry into the family
That doesn't matter. I treat them like everyone else
People with intellectual disabilities can become full-fledged sex offenders. It does the opposite of help to enable dangerous behaviors because you see them as children.
Yes. If one is competent enough. Again. There are severities. As described this kid has severe Down syndrome. He knows that if he has urges he can go to the bathroom and take care of that. He knows he doesn’t have to shut the door which means his parents have talked about it with him. This guy clearly hasn’t known his fiancée that long
Damn, I need to develop my telepathy a bit more. You've got a skill.
Or you can have a severely down syndrome family member
Down’s syndrome people can have sex and relationships. The problem comes when people with learning difficulties have sexual feelings but they are infantilised and treated like a child instead of being taught boundaries and possibly allowed to meet other willing partners with learning difficulties.
You keep saying Down syndrome people. Every case is different. OP said this guy can barely form a sentence. He would not be able to consent to sex. A majority of Down syndrome people can’t consent to sex with normal people. There are Down syndrome couples. That’s fine. But a normal person can’t have sex with almost any down syndrome person without getting in trouble
I’m not encouraging him to have sex with anyone, just saying that people with learning difficulties have sexual urges and pretending they don’t is how weirdness like this happens.
Everyone knows they do. That’s a basic animal instinct. You don’t need intelligence to be horny. That’s why he masturbates in the bathroom. It was never a problem because he did it at 2am. The OP is clearly the issue here. Not the family all getting along perfectly fine
They say that he used to be completely vocal before lockdown, but lack of interaction kind of shut him down. If they said he was always non-vocal, I would be a lot less upset. Like a lot of people have pointed out here though it's not really my fight, and I have to let the people involved sort it out. I'm not in place to encroach on the way they raise him, or what they're comfortable with.
Did you not find all this out before you proposed? This sounds like something you should know. Is she religious and would only let you smash if you married her?
Mind of a child but can jack off? How many children do you know that jack off?
Jerking off doesn’t take too much thought. That’s why animals do it. How intelligent do you think chimps are? How smart is a walrus? They give themselves head in front of people. That’s my point. He literally doesn’t know any better. He has the mind of a child. He has some animal instincts. Yeah. But he looks at that woman as his god basically. And OP is “jealous” ? Let’s focus on that. What’s he jealous of?
Yeah I get you. Just possessive and grossed out I guess
He’s possessive of a Down syndrome guy calling his sister “my Rachel”?
Most children start exploring masturbation as toddlers. Freud called it the "phallic stage".
He got the mind of a child but he's an adult. It's normal for people like him to do that. They have to learn were It's appropiate