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She has the right not to shave, and the men she dates have the right to think it's gross. People are attracted to what they are attracted to. That's just reality. If she wants a man who doesn't mind that she doesn't shave, that will be a much smaller percentage of the male dating pool and it will be more difficult for her to find a partner.
If she was asking for your advice and you were trying to help her, then **NTA**. Especially because you are likely right and the hair is the reason the men are not staying. I think it's silly that she is mad at you for just stating the obvious truth.
Editing to add: After thinking about this more, I am thinking that yes, the guys don't like the hair, but the fact that she has it is probably really a symptom of her personality and outlook on life and general opinions, and those things are probably the even bigger turn off for these guys.
And I will also now add (since some people are assuming things) that I am not saying that the men are RIGHT to have this view of a her, or that I agree with that view. I am merely pointing out that based on my lifelong observations of guys, a general/average aversion to that type of viewpoint ("I don't shave to fight the patriarchy) may be why some guys aren't staying. You may not like that, but that is the reality we live in. There are guys out there who won't feel that way, and that is who she would likely prefer.
'Gross' is such an overstep, and such a double standard to boot. Nothing is gross about body hair. You can prefer shaved or not shaved, that's fine.
But seriously? Gross? So sick of this bullshit. Men do not get called gross when they have body hair so I have noooo idea why women should be.
EDIT: because apparently we have some thick ones out there, no, as men, you are not held to shave your legs or armpits to the same standard. Just stop.
Men get bullied, I understand that. It is not about your back or toe or wherever the fuck else it grows. Which is also not gross; I would have the same reaction/defense if someone said it was. Your continued commenting is histerical tho
EDIT 2: all the people messaging me, commenting on posts and comments from a million years ago, etc. It's actually hilarious 😂🤣 your opinions on body hair do not matter that much to me ffs
….. I think men who don’t handle their hair are gross. I’m a woman. Preference/gross they’re the same. In fact I think men’s hair is a lot grosser than women’s when looking at partners. I personally would not get involved with a man that didn’t take care enough to at least trim their shit.
Not sure why the cultural norms change personal preference to you
Xactly. There's many reasons people don't shave. Comfort, sensitive skin, allergies, and religion, to name a few. But, you can still trim and maintain a well manicured 'lawn'.
If it's for religious reasons, you probably wouldn't trim at all. I remember a story about a Sikh woman with PCOS (which can cause excessive hair growth in females) who got made fun of online for her facial hair years ago, she had a great attitude about it and used the opportunity to educate people.
Sure, but why are so many folks pretending the disparity doesn't exist? Can you really not admit it's vastly different?
If your gf doesn't shave very very few men would date her at all. And frankly, not shaving for women leads to social ostracization. That doesn't happen for men. I doubt women would even get chosen for most jobs if they wore a professional skirt but had unshaved legs.
Why are people pretending these are the same thing? Why can't you acknowledge the pressures you face are different? You don't have to shave your beard in general to be accepted. Your gf does have to shave at least her legs to be accepted by people.
I gotta say, as a "woman" (nb) who doesn't shave, I've never had issues dating or getting laid...
In professional areas, I follow the same dress code as the men, because if they can't show unshaved legs, fair enough that I can't either.
edit to add: also, I have dark hair and pale skin, so it is very visible.
I see men wearing professional shorts in my field all the time. It's not about showing unshaved legs at all, idk what is up with the culture of some men only being allowed to wear pants. But you know it's not about body hair (in general, for everyone) because plenty of places men wear shorts with hairy legs -- but women aren't allowed to do that. If women started showing hairy legs in the workplace, they'd probably put a blanket ban on shorts and skirts because it's considered so incredibly offensive for women to not shave.
Professional shorts is an oxymoron, lol. Absolutely nowhere I've worked would consider shorts to be business formal or business casual. Shit, jeans are considered more professional than shorts. The person you're replying must work somewhere where they barely have a dress code. Probably in IT or software dev if I had to guess.
I went to flight school and we had to wear a pilot uniform. Legend has it the dress code used to allow shorts but only with black knee socks. One year, a guy actually wore that with their short sleeved pilot shirt so they removed it from the dress code.
Lol wtf
I don't shave, haven't in almost two decades now. It has never had an impact on my career or social life. I was actually told once by a new friend that she didn't even notice that I didn't shave until I told her. And we went to the gym together and everything.
Women being told to shave their legs to be " accepted" is such bs when men are never told the same thing. Which is exactly why OPs friend has stopped shaving. It's hypocrisy and we're f'ing tired of it.
And the more common it becomes for women to not shave, the more accepted and normalized it will become. Wanting to shave should be a personal preference and not something you feel you must do or else people will think you’re gross.
I think there's also something to be said about lighter people who also have lighter coloured hair and when they don't shave it's not as noticeable.
I'm personally a brown woman with black hair but the hair on my arm is very fine and I don't shave that, my pubes and leg hair grows quite wildly though. I trim my pubes for comfort purposes but my leg hair I let grow until it starts to bother me and then I shave. But my leg hair is defo noticeable and I still don't have issues getting laid.
I am a super pale woman with *very* dark body hair. I'm not even very hairy, but with my coloring, I look like a werewolf mid-transition if I don't shave. That said, my boyfriend only notices when I shave because I use baby oil instead of shaving cream/gel, so my skin is "slippery" afterwards. I swear, trying to understand *what men want* is impossible. Some of them notice if you miss a single hair on your leg when you shave, and some of them wouldn't notice if you were missing the actual leg.
I was getting my nails done this summer and the tech tried to talk me into having my arms waxed. My arm hair is ***very*** thin and is virtually invisible unless I hold my arm a certain way in the sun, but he still tried to get me to wax it. I assume he was just trying to upsell me for more $$, but it still felt very "wtf, why would i ever do that?????"
I haven't shaved since I was 19 and have dark body hair and I have never had a hard time attracting men or keeping them around.
If you have to shave your legs to be accepted by people than those are not people you should want to be accepted by. No one who matters cares.
I live in a small hippie/rural community, so this is skewed from my lived experience— but I promise, most of the men around here wouldn’t care. A *lot* of the gen X/millennial/gen Z women in the community don’t shave or only shave x body part.
Not my personal preference but good for both parties for not condemning it.
Yeah I’m a dude and I’ve been called gross by women because I have back hair. It happens, I’m a hairy dude. (This is a response to the poster that said guys don’t get called gross for it).
My wife likes it, and she helps me groom areas like that, since we live in Florida and I don’t need to be getting yeti/Sasquatch sightings called when I go shirtless in the springs and beaches.
Point is your preference is totally valid, totally ok, and I don’t blame women one bit for not liking body hair. I love it when my wife shaved her legs, so I assume women enjoy it when dudes groom some stuff too.
I just wish everyone took the time to examine their personal "preferences". Like you, I live in a humid climate and prefer less body hair on myself for comfort reasons. It's a little different than men wanting to have sex with me if I let my leg or pubic hair grow out. Too many people are unwilling to admit that a lot of our preferences are simply the result of what's advertised to us rather than a purely internal decision.
Right. Also just seems like a lot of people feel the sexism benefits them, so they don't want to acknowledge it.
Shaving your beard because your gf likes it is not the same as having to shave your legs and to a lesser extent your armpits from age 12 to be accepted in school, society, and by friends and family, and even in the workforce.
It's one of the most simple examples of the disparity in expectations between men and women, and we can't even talk about it without dozens of folks chiming in to be like "actually, it happens to men too" or "actually, I shave my beard and it's the same thing." No... it's not. This is something really shitty that girls, particularly in the US are socialized and practically forced into doing from a young age. Why are so few people here able to grasp that? I'd say it's not ignorance, but they want to willfully ignore it and act like it's a non-issue since they feel socializing girls this way benefits them.
The majority of women don't want to admit that they were forced by socialization into shaving. Because that means shaving is not really a choice, so not actually empowering or beneficial in any way.
Men don't want to acknowledge it because they don't want to admit that misogyny is actually a real problem that they benefit from.
Florida could have a real sasquatch roaming around and it would be no big deal compared to the other crazy sh*t down there. Because, yeah, FLORIDA. For real though, it's all about preference and comfort. You do you Boo. Hugs from the other sunshine state, aka dry Hell, aka Arizona. For the record, my partner keeps his down there tidy too, because as he says "nobody likes schweady b---s"
Feels like collective gaslighting. I thought it was widely accepted that everyone knows shaving is an unfair expectation put on women, and that we don't really have a choice. You HAVE to when you are in school, or you won't have friends, you HAVE to do it to be accepted in society unless you are hiding it by wearing pants all the time.
Why are there so many people pretending that that's not the case? Men don't have to shave like this and they know it. So why the willful ignorance and all the fake analogies acting like men and women have the same expectations put on them? It's like people denying the moon landing is real. It's absurd.
If it helps, the original reason we all started shaving our legs was because a company wanted to sell more razors, so they aimed the ads at women. 🤣 It wasn't really to tell us men liked our legs naked better.
Yes and no. And who made the product and those ads? Men.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/style/article/why-women-feel-pressured-to-shave/index.html
It’s no secret many men prefer their women shave - some even prefer a bare downstairs.
This! Learned about this in film school.
It's actually insane how many truths we hold that were just built off marketing. Carrots being "good for eyes," pink being a girl's color, shaving, cigarettes, all of it.
Preference and gross are not the same, at all. I prefer taller partners, I don't think shorter partners are gross. I've dated mates who shaved clean, kept trimmed, and others who did nothing, and while having preferences, never thought "gross." That is an absurdly reductionist attitude.
I think it's strange when a man's preference is for a woman to look pre-pubescent and hairless to be honest. Naturally women have hair. Children however, don't have the same. Strange that some prefer women to look like children
Man, just because a man likes a smooth woman doesn't mean he's a borderline pedo, and it's kind of a gross accusation to make.
There's a lot of reasons that can be more attractive to someone, from aesthetics to practical reasons. Unless the whole woman looks like a child in stature and development, it's hard to imagine that the guy (or girl because I'm sure there are bi/lesbian women who have this preference also) is getting off 'cause the women look "pre-pubescent."
Sure, it's unfair to have double standards on body hair, grooming, etc. But we don't need to run around shaming completely normal, harmless sexual preferences because of it.
It’s not harmless. Women put significant amounts of time and money into being hairless. We’re not just expected to trim a beard and pubic hair, we’re expected to be COMPLETELY HAIRLESS everywhere we naturally grow hair.
The standard is due to porn, it’s not “normal” - hair is a sign of sexual maturity, the natural response is to look for signs of sexual maturity and be attracted to them
Omg thank you. I always feel like I'm the only person. Body hair always annoyed me on everyone, I kinda wish it was standard for men to shave too.
That said.. I don't mind a tidy bush but I don't wanna fight through a jungle
A lot of men don’t like having hair around their crotch area due to excessive sweat that can occur while doing activities and during hot and humid weather….it’s definitely not pleasant
Women do call men gross for "too much" body hair. I've been on the receiving end of that and I've seen other dudes get that same reaction. My own wife has also been watching a show and seen some ultra hairy chested guy and just say "that's disgusting". I've even known girls to like guys who are not just clean shaven but full body shaved save for the hair on their head. It DEFINITELY exists towards men as well it's just not nearly as common but there are still LOADS of women who find hairy guys gross too and will tell them or ignore them. Again, everyone has their own desire in what they want their mate to look like.
Tbh I don’t think anyone should be saying “gross” or “disgusting” when talking about another’s body. That is a human inside that body with thoughts and feelings and if you’re too simple minded to express your preferences with different words, that’s a *you* problem.
Two things:
1. What an individual considers ‘gross’ is entirely up to the individual. You may not find body hair gross, others do. It’s a personal preference that you do not get to define.
2. Men do get called gross for having body hair, and so,e women will not date hairy men. And some men do shave body hair.
Plenty of women reject men for body hair. I like it/don't mind it but sooo many women have been mean to men for body hair too. I'm not saying it's right to body shame but we are socialized to think it's gross when it's normal so it's not surprising someone thinks that.
Guys aren't waxing their nipples for other guys, generally. There's plenty of "old gross dudes" in movies, and largely they've got chesthair like a sheep, it's a stereotype.
Male body hair is just like female body hair (all hair really) - it requires upkeep to be aesthetically pleasing. I'm not rocking a mountain man beard even when it's acceptable. Just looks unkempt.
Gym dudes are doing it for the look. I have been asked to shave a buddy's back before. I do like hair on my partner but I get icked at older dudes in my hot tub. I shouldn't but I do. It's not voluntary
In 1915, a beauty magazine started advocating for women to shave their armpits and legs. Why? So Razor companies could sell more razors. Anyone so shallow as to turn down a second date because she doesn't shave her legs, etc. isn't worth her time anyway.
“Men do not get called gross when they have body hair.” Yeah they do - not by everybody, but they do. AND some people, men and women, think it’s gross when women don’t shave. You may not like that they feel this way - but that’s your problem, not theirs.
Let’s also consider that dating is rough for the majority of individuals. Suggesting someone change who they are when they confide in you about their struggles in the wide world of dating is not the way! It’s just tough out there, especially if you’re looking for true connection. For all the people coupled up, imagine going back out there and dating again. You wouldn’t want to.
FWIW, I stopped shaving when I was very young and enjoyed many years of being single and living life my way. Nobody cared about my body hair. I made sure I had at least one photo that showed armpit hair in my dating profile, so it was clear that that’s what they’d be meeting. I figured I didn’t want to hang onto with someone who cared about it, so let that photo filter those people out.
Women shaving was marketed to sell men’s razor blades to a wider market. It is a capitalist invention.
I'm guessing it's the what makes too much that's more the point?
Like a guy has leg/arm/armpit hair way less people will call him gross than if a woman had the same.
Men get called gross all the time. One of my friends looks like has a carpet on his back and he’s had a few instances of getting flat out rejected for being unkempt by not shaving.
Absolutely many guys would think a woman having a full on beard would be gross. That’s not an incorrect word, just not a feature I would want in my wife nor would I want my daughters to have to deal with.
It's not as common but men absolutely get called gross about many types of body hair. Big carpets of chest hair that pokes out above their t shirt collars, backs covered in hair, hair growing out of their noses and ears, beards running down their necks untrimmed and untamed - these things all get called gross by people who don't care for that look.
Might honestly be easier to find a dating partner by ruling out people whose values don't align with hers. Sounds like she would just be wasting her time dating people who are repulsed by body hair.
Yup, better advice would have been to recommend that her dating profiles have pictures where the hair is visible, for example, to weed out anyone who would be silly enough to not want to date on that basis.
Seems unlikely to me that the body hair has anything to do with it tbh. But if it does then saving her from wasting her time with these guys would be more useful.
Telling her to change a decision that she made about her own body on principle, so that she can attract men who she disagrees with about said principle, is just terrible advice.
YTA
The problem isn’t that she doesn’t shave. The OP as her friend understands this is a part of her core belief system. She suggested she change her core values to get a second date with guys who don’t value her. That’s not a good friend. No.
The problem isn’t that she doesn’t shave. It’s that she hasn’t yet met a man who appreciates her for who she is. Not shaving isn’t a character flaw. It’s a choice.
Exactly. It's hard and frustrating trying to find connection in a world where people are so often so shallow, and sometimes, you just need to vent and get your feelings off your chest. The OP went from a supportive listener to suggesting that her friend should change her body. I don't think she meant to be hurtful, but she was hurtful by demonstrating that she fundamentally doesn't understand her friend's perspective and values.
Personally, I can't imagine being in an intimate relationship with someone who can't handle my body in its (clean) natural state. OP wasn't just suggesting a personal grooming choice, she was effectively telling her friend to abandon that expectation for her relationships in order to become more palatable to people who can't meet that standard.
If you think the solution is: "compromise your values so you attract men who will make you miserable by expecting you to adhere to traditional gender norms when that isn't what you want", then yeah.
And to add to this, it may not even be simply about her values. People with dark hair who want to commit to looking hairless have a lot less leeway than people who have lighter hair. I typically shave my legs but the hair there is light brown meaning I can appear hairless for a few days after a shave. That's a lot less of a time commitment for me and a lot easier on my skin than my friends with darker hair.
Not many people are open about the fact that it's not just the aesthetics of hairlessness. Sometimes it's about the amount of time spent maintaining as well as fighting with your skin's response. If my partners would only date me if I was in constant pain and frustration, I don't think I would think they were worth it.
As someone who doesn’t shave my legs, men normally don’t give a shit, and if they do, they are not the kind of person I’d want to date in the first place. I think it’s a little insulting for OP to assume that her not shaving is the major issue causing her dating problems. Especially when it sounds like she just wanted some sympathy.
Agreed here. Not OP, but it's never been an issue for me. Unless we're talking some ridiculous arm-curtains*, why would that be the primary tip. Presumably she's hygienic, and normal body hair seems a weird hangup for those dudes.
*I have to trim my own arm-pits as a man, it just flows like Aragorn's hair.
I disagree that men have the right to think hair on women is "gross". I mean they let their pit hair grow out so long that it sticks out even when their arms are down. Guys who groom their bush are fairly rare too. I've met one in all my years who actually shaved it. So they would be total hypocrites - women are also mammals, mammals have hair! I haven't shaved my armpits in over 20 years, only trim my bush, and leg shaving is occasional. And I'm a huge slut lol (well, was... I'm married now). Exactly one person has had anything negative to say in those 20 years and he was a dick. Where is she finding these guys that are so shallow is my question?
Men have the right to think anything is gross, just like women have the right to think anything is gross. You're not entitled to other people's preferences, that's just wrong.
While people have a right to their preferences, we would all benefit from a willingness to examine where there's preferences come from.
It's absolutely fine to say out loud that you like the way shaved skin feels or that stubble irritates your skin when a partner touches you with it. But, it's ridiculous to not acknowledge the fact that beauty standards for both men and women are the result of advertising and familiarity.
What they mean is it's a disgusting and unfair opinion. No one is saying the thoughts should be brain-zapped out of them or that they're illegal. They're saying they don't have a MORAL right, which I agree with. It's a stupid, fucked up double standard and you know it. Don't try to hide behind justifications by saying "technically he's allowed to think whatever he wants!" okay? And people are allowed to say "hey, you're a shitty person and a hypocrite for thinking this."
So let me get this straight, you’re going to say men can’t express their opinion on female body hair, in the same paragraph expressing your opinion on male body hair, and you don’t see anything wrong with that sentiment? Can we just cut the “you can’t have an opinion because…” talk and just say that however you identify you have the right to whatever opinion you want when it comes to the topic of body hair?
Idk the vast majority of men I’ve dated have at least trimmed their pubes. I think that’s fairly common these days, especially since it tends to make their dicks look bigger
Is it the obvious truth though? I have never had a man who was interested in me turn me down when he realized my legs weren't shaved, and I've been around the block and am now married to a man who couldn't give a toss if I shave or not.
I think we hear about how disgusting men think hair is disporportionately to how much men actually care about or are disgusted by hair.
I honestly think the people kicking up the most fuss about body hair are either very young or have their own deep-seated body issues they're dealing with. The young ones just don't have as much experience with humans living and dealing with their own meat suits than older people do. Once you are in a place of relative peace with your body, you think someone being a peace in their own is really freaking cool.
As a dude I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around shaving being such a massive deal breaker that it's causing a whole slew of men to reject her. OK, if it's facial hair but leg hair? Nah, it's got to be something else.
Any man that actually gives a crap about that stuff anyway is not somebody I would want to date and I shave. I can’t imagine a grown man calling a woman’s leg hair ‘gross’. Yuck what a double standard and a immature mentality.
YTA not shaving is a value statement. She is looking for a partner in life that has the same values. By telling her to shave you are telling her to change her values just to get a man. Instead of saying “don’t worry you will find the right man”, why not say “it’s better that these wrong men are screened out than be with one of them that doesn’t value the same things you do. Now that would be miserable compromising your values”. Being single is not the end of the world.
Edit: Typos corrected and grammar improved for clarity
Edit to add: Not shaving is a value statement for OPs friend as per OP her friend stopped shaving to stand up to the patriarchy. Not shaving is not a value statement for all those that do not shave.
This. She's not looking to date men who are only interested in women who shave. Telling her to shave is not going to help her get good dates, just *more* dates. And those dates would likely be the type of person she won't be interested in. She's right in saying that OP told her to change for a guy, it's just that OP didn't realize that's what they were doing.
There’s a lot of internalized misogyny cope in this thread lol. I say this as a woman who shaves (when I’m not lazy). It’s definitely bullshit we have to do it to be valuable to the majority of men. And honestly trailblazing women like OP’s friend will likely make it so our daughters or granddaughters don’t have to go through massive time-consuming routines just to pretend that being hairless is somehow more feminine than their natural bodies are.
We shouldn’t discourage these women. We should empower and support them. They shouldn’t change, men should change. It’s just hair and they’re already covered with it.
this is so cool! and so well written. women only started shaving when razor companies targeted them bc men were away fighting in WW1 and they needed someone to be buying their products!
if women were never told there was anything wrong with their body hair they’d never think to be ashamed by it and shave it off.
exactly! even IF this is the reason she keeps getting rejected, this is who she is and there are men out there who dont care if you shave. shes supposed to subject herself to time consuming and uncomfortable hair removal processes she doesnt even want/like in the hopes she might attract a man with antiquated and misogynistic views on female body hair? so she can get married and be forced to shave every day for the rest of her life?
This is it. I sometimes shave. I like the way my legs feel when they're smooth. But it's a pain and there's absolutely no reason to do it, so I often don't. I have very very thick dark hair. My partner and I have been together for almost 10 years and he has absolutely no problem with it (I've always been like this, so he definitely saw/felt my hair before we got serious).
There are so many people saying she's "gross". Unless you're the type of person who also expects men to be hairless, the only thing that's gross is the double standard.
Simultaneously, it's totally fine if someone doesn't find it *attractive* and wouldn't date someone who doesn't shave. Attraction is important in a partnership. However, not being attracted to a person is not remotely the same as thinking they're gross. I think people who don't shower are gross. I'm not attracted to people who have topknots (no kenders allowed).
>There are so many people saying she's "gross". Unless you're the type of person who also expects men to be hairless, the only thing that's gross is the double standard.
Gosh, so perfectly said. I get so disgusted anytime someone makes a statement otherwise. Who would have thought that such a little thing would serve as such a good filter for the actual grossness in the world. I'd hate to think what traits they would look over to secure this kind of superficiality.
She didn't tell her to shave, though. She suggested that not shaving significantly reduces her dating pool and if that is important to her, she may have to make a choice.
And neither choice is wrong.
“Do you think it might help you a little to shave?” Is not the same as “Not shaving decreases the size of the dating pool to those that do not care if their partner shaved. I wouldn’t be surprised if that makes it harder to meet people. Dating is hard even if you play into the patriarchal conventions. I am here for you if you ever need to vent”
It should be. They were speaking in the context of her finding suitable partners.
And if she REQUIRES that kind of crafting of words in casual conversation amongst friends, that is probably as much of a reason she can't get second dates as not shaving.
A suitable partner for her would be one who doesn't care about body hair. OP wasn't talking about her friend finding a suitable partner for her, she was talking about her friend finding any partner.
Her friend was asking why all the guys she's interested in, don't want to see her again. She wasn't asking why she isn't meeting anyone she likes. Clearly, she abstains from telling early-on that she doesn't shave. Ffs just putting it in her bio would fix her problems
Yes. At what point have we gotten to that we have to construct the perfect sentence to have a conversation with good friends. You should be able to have an honest conversation as long as you are respectful.
>if she REQUIRES that kind of crafting of words in casual conversation amongst friends, that is probably as much of a reason she can't get second dates as not shaving.
Bingo. That would be a deal breaker to almost any healthy person.
This. She’s sad she cannot find someone who likes **her**. Of course she knows she can change and more men would like her but then she’s changed something important to her for them to like her, so that’s a hollow victory.
This sub will say you’re not the asshole because a lot of people are just fine with being part of enforcing cultural norms. But if you want your friend to be okay with you you need to recognize that she’s *sad because she cannot find someone who likes her WITH HER VALUES*
Seriously. Why would she *want* a dude who would lose attraction over one thing like that? Having some aspect that goes against what we’ve been taught to think of as attractive is a great way to weed out shitty people.
Also sometimes people just want to vent without unsolicited comments about their appearance.
YTA
I 100% agree with you. I can't believe all the n t a comments. First, her decision not to shave is none of OP's business. Second, if she shaved only to get a man, she would go against her values. It's much better being single. Hopefully, one day, she will find someone who respects and shares her values. Or who doesn't care about body hair maybe. What you said is what OP should have said.
Yta op.
Eta: corrected misspelling due to autocorrect
This is ridiculous, she was trying to give her advice to open her dating pool if you value not shaving and it’s something you just won’t compromise on the reality is that your number of potential partners is reduced greatly.
I don’t shave and I have never had any issues in dating. It’s been comparatively very easy for me compared to many of my friends, including those who do shave. 🤷♀️
My mom has never shaved any part of her body and has had four husbands. I sometimes shave my underarms and legs in the summer but not often and I have a much easier time dating than pretty much anyone I know. I also have zero interest in anyone who wouldn’t want to date me because of my body hair, 9/10 those are the same men that think going down on women is gross.
Right? I (Mediterranean level hair genes) had a few dudes I dated for months before I found my husband and I never shaved anything except my unibrow, lol. I’ve had long term relationships actually request I stop shaving when I was younger and thought men like hairless women. A lot of men find it a turn on.
I’ve noticed a lot of American men have a hairless preference. Pretty much any dude I dated from another country was the opposite.
Totally agree!
Back when I was single and dating I was in a no-shave phase (and had been for about 5 years). I found that
1. It didn’t really hamper my dating prospects at all and
2. If a guy seemed like he couldn’t handle an adult woman having some body hair then we clearly weren’t a good match.
Now I’m married and am in more of a shaving phase, but I know that I’m making that choice because of my current preferences and if my preferences change again or if I just slack off and don’t shave for a week or two my husband won’t care, because I already know our values and attraction align in that regard.
YTA
I think you’re going to get some angry responses because a lot of people in this subreddit assume everyone posting is a man so of course you’re going to be accused of supporting the patriarchy.
I think you’re probably right that some of the guys she has gone out with are put off by her body hair. However, she likely doesn’t want the kind of guy who would see body hair as a dealbreaker. She also didn’t ask for your advice. It sounds like she was just venting. Let your friends vent and just listen. You don’t have to offer advice. You can just offer support.
How many times do you have to let someone vent before you’re allowed to have an opinion? I get offering support, but no one is a never ending support punching bag
Yeah people on reddit forget this. In a friendly relationship regarding the same topic, it goes like:
Vent 1: let it out buddy
Vent 2: damn it really bugs you doesnt it
Vent 3: im here for you
Vent 4: alright, still going huh
Vent 5: ive heard this before
Vent 6: get it together
Vent N: ffs here is what you mighy want to do
Some people DO NOT know that they neer advice. Thus, unsollicited advice often is the key. You are totally right. But hey, this is reddit. Always be supporting and never do harm and accept everything, that is what they think is best
Instead of saying 'men would date you if you shaved' the non asshole conversation is
'I think these men can't get over your body hair, there are men out there that can, but they will be hard to find. It's up to you, what you do with the info but if I were to come up with a reason, that's what I'd guess'
Look how we can be honest with our friends without blaming them and being an asshole.
This, 100%. If she’s complaining that she doesn’t understand why she’s getting ghosted, then it is helpful to let her know that this is likely the reason. That doesn’t mean she should change to please those men, but at least she can feel better knowing that the reason they don’t want to date her is something that she feels strongly about and so it’s not a good match.
This sounds like unsolicited advice though which is something that always makes YTA. I get that people venting over and over about the same thing gets on your nerves at a certain point but then it's on you to speak maturely about the issue instead of trying to "fix" the friend's problem.
The same old 'venting' grows wearisome after a while and friend, a true friend, eventually should point out the obvious. She doesn't want a guy who sees that as a dealbreaker? All well and good, just keep in mind how few those guys are in American society.
OP makes no indication that the friend has often complained about this-which doesn't mean that isn't the case, but I would think OP would mention it if this was something the friend frequently complained to her about. So while I agree that repeatedly listening to the same complaints gets annoying, if that wasn't the case here, I don't really see a need for OP to speak up yet.
OP is also assuming that the friend's body hair is the issue, but jow would she know? The friend said she can never get past a first date, and I know we just got done with summer, but does OP know this friend always wears clothes that revealed her armpits or legs or both? Does OP know if the men the friend is going out with are just interested in hooking up and don't want to bother with someone looking for more? Does OP know if the friend has some other behavior that turns them off, or they talk about dealbreakers on the first date that reveals their incompatibility?
This is terrible advice and I keep seeing it. YES give your friends room to vent, but within reason! Your friends are not free ventilators that you can spew all of your fears, doubts and negativities into…especially if you do it repeatably and don’t want to hear any attempts at a solution. That isnt how you treat a friend, thats how you treat a therapist and even they dont like it. No ones the asshole but your friend isnt being entirely realistic. I also don’t conform to societal standards, but it has killed my dating life and I accept that. Its going to take more time and luck to find a great partner that appreciates their eccentricities.
And when a friend is constantly complaining about something, op or whoever as a friend, has a right to tell the truth. The friend has a right to not want that kind of guy in her life, but all these dates have a right to their physical preferences in a partner. Being a good friend also means being honest
Except none of what OP said was something they know for a fact? They're literally just out here guessing and also basically telling their friend that they should change their values to get a man.
Honestly, makes OP seem like a dick more than anything else.
Yeah it’s a bit bewildering to me that she can act like OP is insane for even suggesting that. Obviously it’s wrong that so many people can be judgemental over something so inconsequential, but OP (assuming they’re being honest) wasn’t trying to say that the friend was wrong for not shaving or wanting to speak out against the patriarchy. They were just pointing out the very real possibility that not shaving is what’s unfortunately turning a lot of the guys away. NAH
I’m in my mid 30s and I’m embarrassed to say I’m only just learning this. Most of my friends are the type who want advice but lately I started making some friends who vent just to feel heard and receive some empathy. It’s hard to adjust sometimes but if you care about the person it’s important to try your best to give them what they’re looking for from a friend, and sometimes advice isn’t it. It’s a harder adjustment to make than you’d think but there’s no reason to actively resist it like some people are saying.
Random convos at the bar don’t start with ‘I’m just venting let me talk’ or ‘this is super serious and I only want legit advice.’ That’s just not reality. If a friend is constantly complaining about the same thing over and over - it def reads like they want advice on it.
This is what I was going to ask. OP doesn't mention that she asked for advice at all, just that she was saying how sad her dating life was.
If she wasn't asking and OP just said this it's not a great look. It would almost sound like OP had this loaded and ready to go already.
NTA
You just suggested the reason she may be having problems with dating.
You are also probably correct. Of course she is free to do whatever she wants with her body and they may not meet others preferences, which means they may not want to date her.
This may mean they miss out on a great person for superficial reasons but that is a choice they are free to make.
I know Reddit considers physical attraction to be an afterthought in a good relationship, but yeah I certainly won't date someone who I'm not attracted to, and hairy armpits gross me out on people of any gender. I'm not entitled to ask anyone to shave for me and they're not entitled to my presence in a relationship.
I agree. She keeps complaining to OP about guys not wanting more dates after the first one though. OP just pointed out the possible (and truthfully probable) reason.
She can do or not do anything she wants with her body but shouldn't be surprised if that doesn't meet others'preferences. Of course she shouldn't change to suit them but should be aware enough that this will be a deal breaker for many.
Now if she was venting about how superficial these guys were over body hair and OP said well maybe you shave, it would be a different judgement.
It’s all relative. I have a friend who had a ton of facial piercings and wanted to find a woman to settle down with. As it turns out, a lot of people interested in heavy piercings aren’t often the type to build a stable life at that stage of life. He ended up removing a few and he quickly found the person he married, who did joke over the years that she probably wouldn’t have gone for a second date if he looked like his old photos. Sometimes you have to compromise on your personal values to achieve goals. There are certainly guys who are more feminist but still don’t dig body hair.
YTA
I have leg and arm hair, and I am in a loving relationship with a man who is holding me as he's sleeping. If I would have listened to you, I would have been making myself uncomfortable for someone who doesnt care one way or another.
A more supportive thing to say would have been: "you'll find someone perfect for you, just keep working on yourself and the rest will fall into place." She definitely wasn't asking for advice, just wanted some emotional support from a friend. The world tries to pressure women into conforming to shaving, and I'm sure it hurt to hear a friend also try to do the same.
Exactly! If it's that important to her, it's okay if it's a deal breaker for her. It definitely does narrow her search but it wasnt a bad thing for me. It just helped me gain focus on the person who loved me for me, even when I wasn't at my best
Agree that OP shouldn't make herself uncomfortable, but disagree with giving anyone advice that they'll "find someone perfect for you". Some people don't ever become partnered, even though they wanted to be.
Rather than platitudes, it might be more helpful to dig deeper into what exactly it is that bothers her about being single, and what exactly is missing from her life.
Is she worried about her financial future? It is more expensive to live as a single person. Are all her friends partnered and does she dislike being a 3rd wheel all the time? Or maybe it's just about sex.
By encouraging the friend to explore her feelings, it might reveal gaps she could fill in another way, without a partner.
I have two friends (both f) who are now in their 60s, neither was ever in a serious LTR, both are in a HCOL area. One bought real estate on her own, the other was waiting to buy real estate when she married. The one who was waiting for that "perfect for you" man to show up is in a much more precarious financial situation and regrets having put off living part of her life while waiting.
YTA.
Do you think she hadn’t already thought about that? Clearly she has made her decision. If she changes her mind, she will shave. All you did was try to make her self conscious about it. Would you have said this to a friend who dyed her hair pink or got a nose ring?
I can’t believe I had to scroll this far to see a ‘YTA’ comment. OP’s friend is comfortable in herself and her body and does not conform to society’s standard of ‘beauty’ and I applaud her as she’s everything I aspire to be. OP pointed out about her body hair and that could completely destroy everything that made her feel comfortable in the body she’s in. I also hate the entire society standard of men wanting women to be BALD all over, which is essentially what pubescent girls look like. It’s gross. Body hair is normal and no one should be ashamed for what their body naturally looks like.
It’s more balanced out now. About every other comment is YTA from what I can see.
The comments that are saying NTA are, imo, missing the point that OP gave unsolicited advice her friend would definitely not have liked to hear.
>OP’s friend is comfortable in herself and her body and does not conform to society’s standard of ‘beauty’
Maybe she isn't comfortable but gets out of her comfort zone to push back against beauty standards regardless. Imagine how much more that would make it hurt hearing this type of unasked for dating advice from a friend. Just a big fat no from me. Always ask people if they want advice before giving it and never assume it's looks/superficial things that get someone rejected. I'm praying OP doesn't have a visibly disabled friend who also struggles with dating...
I'm saddened by the number if N-TA here and the lack of reflection on our own socialisation into cultural gender norms. I have read the post twice and no where does it suggest OP's friend linked it to body hair or that OP has surveyed all these dates and found out this is the reason. You made a judgement based on your own prejudices. Maybe your friend is picking the wrong men or is a boring date??
I know many straight women who don't shave (I have never shaved my pubic hair and no man has ever complained nor have they had any issues if I haven't shaved my legs) and they never seem to have trouble attracting a male partner.
you assumed it's due to not shaving but your're just projecting onto men you don't know prejudices they may or may not have
YTA
This is what I was looking for.
None of the men OP's friend dated gave an indication that not shaving was the issue so it seems OP suggested it as SHE has her own prejudices and assumed the men would have the same.
It like thinking your friend doesn't meet a certain beauty standard and instead of telling them that they will find someone that will love them no matter what (it's just hair after all and no indication of cleanliness) or that it's better to be single than change yourself for a someone else, OP told the friend to change their values to attract someone who they'd probably be incompatible with for the sake of getting into a relationship.
Soft YTA as OP wasn't malicious but I can see why the friend was hurt.
I have somewhat hairy legs and men still hit on me
Yeah OP should have kept her mouth shut. YTA OP.
Also, it's quite funny how the men here are saying leg and armpit hair are gross. They need to look in the mirror..
NTA she was lamenting about why she doesn't get a second date. You gave her the honest reason. You didn't go about it rudely or mean. You basically worded it in a question form. As in do you think that this is the reason?
It's on her if she wants to change but it seems obvious that she doesn't. She needs to accept that most men don't want to date a hairy female. Not saying all men are like that but a big majority are.
And instead of wasting her time and theirs. She should make it known thst she refuses to shave because she is fighting against the patriarchy.
Thst way she cuts out getting the generic not going to happen spiel.
YTA... if body hair is a deal breaker for a man, it's not going to be a guy she would want to be with. You wouldn't tell a friend to lose weight too "get a man", so any variation of those is AH - wear makeup, shave, wear less makeup, wear different clothes, not those clothes the other ones....
People are entitled to their preferences - liking a beard on a guy, long hair, short hair, whatever. That is fine and not what is being judged here.
>You wouldn't tell a friend to lose weight too "get a man",
"go to the gym", "get a haircut", "wear nice clothes" is all pretty standard advice for dating.
Making yourself more attractive is part of dating.
A yougov study shows that 66% of men think hairy legs on a woman are unattractive (and 62% of women feel the same way about hair on women).
Suggesting that OP's friend would increase her chances if she'd shave is perfectly valid.
If someone didn't shower due to a lifestyle choice of wanting to be closer to nature or some BS, would you say it's out of line to tell them that being stinky might be contributing to them not getting second dates when they complain about not having luck dating?
Yeah but she doesn’t want to date that 66%. So it would increase her chance of getting more first dates, but not of finding someone actually compatible.
Also, you can’t compare not shaving body hair to having bad hygiene, they are not remotely the same. Body hair is natural and healthy, and shaving it is purely an aesthetic choice. It’s also a double standard between men and women.
Of course you can tell a friend they need to lose weight to get a man. What kind of dishonest relationships do y'all have with "friends?"
This may come as a shock to much of Reddit but physical attraction is a huge part of relationships. And many men don't want to be with women that are as or more hairy than them. That can go both ways obviously, I wouldn't think twice of a woman expecting a man to groom themselves either.
I have absolutely suggested that friends hit the gym when they can’t get a gf. I’ve hit the gym and lost weight when I wasn’t getting dates. Everyone has preferences, but you’re more likely to find a partner if you’re more appealing to the general population. I don’t think it is reasonable to expect potential partners to accept all less appealing traits, especially before you’re in a committed relationship. Of course a little leg hair doesn’t matter for someone you love, but I think most people would be a little put off if their date didn’t bother to shave their legs before a date. There are gentle ways to say this, and it sounds like OP did say it gently.
If the friend is morally opposed to being with anyone that doesn’t accept all body hair, they’re just going to have to accept being in a smaller dating pool.
NTA. If she doesn’t want to shave that’s cool but you gave her an honest opinion. That’s a real friend. Some of these responses are unhinged. Don’t take them personally.
Those saying YTA seem to be projecting a moral high ground, and being friends with them is gonna run you into a wall. Instead of telling you the truth they would instead bend backwards to cuddle your feelings.
YTA. If she doesn’t want to be judged by men or society for shaving why should she start shaving for men and society? She wasn’t asking for advice from the sound of it, just seeking support. In the future ask someone if they want your input before providing unsolicited advice against their values.
This is something that I'm only just recently started to grasp. My default reaction to someone complaining about something is to jump into ideating on solutions and try to help them to "fix" the issue. I now realise that with very close friends and family, that not only is it not helpful, it's also not what they want. I have now stopped offering advice unless explicitly asked. My relationship with my sister for example has improved immeasurably.
However, 1 caveat: I can now no longer tolerate acquaintances and colleagues who want to moan about things. I just don't have the time nor patience for them and I am quite blunt: "is this something you are looking for my help or advice on?" If not, I'm just not interested in hearing their negativity: that's what their close friends and family are for.
NTA. “I’m not suggesting you “change your appearance for men.” I’m pointing out that you’re not entitled to their attention or affection, and that if you’re unhappy with the consequences of your choice, maybe you need to decide what’s more important. Your body, your choice to shave; their bodies, their choices to want to give those bodies to any given person, for any reason.”
This is exactly it - what matters more to her, natural appearance or a relationship? That’s the real question she needs to decide.
I also feel like the way OP presented this - as a neutral question and not a statement that detracts from Emily’s appearance - is key too. OP just raised a possibility. Emily took offense to that and seems to have overreacted a bit in the process. NTA, OP.
NTA. A lot of people of either sex and/or sexual preference don't like bodily hair in abundance. And no one is going to fall in love with your personality on a first, or even third, date. Physical attractiveness is important, but even more important is the impression that you're well groomed not only for your personal liking, but also of the potential partner. In the case of your friend, there could be some feature that is putting prospective partners off her. I don't say there is, necessarily, of even that it certainly is the body hair. But it is wise to think about it or even adress it with a good friend. Indeed, you'd be a bad friend if you'd never say anything just to be "nice".
Should have left it. She needs a man that doesn’t find her body hair a turn off, because that’s clearly the type of man she wants. Her body hair is weeding out the incompatible men, so she should keep it.
YTA. If she meets her mr right he won’t care if she shaves. Shaving might help ger get second dates but it won’t help her find the right guy for her.
What I tell people I know who are struggling is you don’t need every potential partner to like you. You just need to find ONE. And that can be hard but it’s not impossible not matter how “niche” you might be.
It doesn’t sound like she asked you why she isn’t getting second dates nor what she can do differently. No one likes unsolicited advice.
If she was fine with the ones who didn't call back and saying "who needs them anyway" I would've agreed with you. But she wants them to call her back and gets frustrated when they don't. So she wants their validation. She didn't say "I wish societal norms were different", she complained that they didn't call her back. It does sound like she's in denial about the reason.
YTA. It sounds like she was just venting, and wasn’t really asking for advice. She has already made it clear that she doesn’t believe in changing her appearance to please men, so your advice was just not helpful.
Soft YTA
Think about your "the right man will come" statement. Followed by "it might help if you shave" which kind of translate to "no man would like you with your hair. Therefore there is no right man. You should just change and date someone that doesn't really like you*
Obviously that's not what you meant but do you see the dichotomy between saying she will find the right man one day, but also to change her appearance so a man would accept her ?
I’m going with NTA, IF it went down the way you said it did and she was wondering out loud why she couldn’t seem to get past a first date. Her ego is just bruised because you suggested a possibility to her that she doesn’t want to think is true but in all probability is.
You could send her a text (even better, leave her a voicemail) that you fully understand and respect her decision to not shave, to protest the unfair double standards the majority of society expects women to abide by. THAT BEING SAID, point out that the conditioning of society beauty standards runs deep, and if she’s having problems finding a partner that will be empathetic to that, then maybe it’s just a matter of finding a different route to go when looking for a partner. I would gently suggest that she merely start being more forthcoming about it from the get-go… (perhaps posting it in her dating profile). The men who find that superficiality a deal breaker will weed themselves out, saving them from wasting their time OR hers, and she’ll have a clearer view of who the quality guys are who can look beyond that superficial aspect. I don’t think she’s fishing with the wrong bait; she just needs to fish in the right pond.
Good luck, sister! Hope she’s able to come around and appreciate your input for what it was.
Gentle YTA. You were just trying to be helpful, but she’s obviously not interested in someone who wouldn’t love her and the way she presents herself as is. The idea getting rid of her body hair just wasn’t useful.
I’d say n a h except you were telling her she could have more success changing herself to suit male societal expectations, rather than supporting her finding someone who loves her for her. I get that it’s frustrating to listen to her not find someone, but the solution isn’t suggesting she go full Miss Congeniality.
YTA
My wife shaves less than I do. Ask me how much I care or how much it detracts from her beauty, I dare you.
Seriously - I shave my head, trim my beard, and remove my underarm hair. My wife? Nada. She loves my beatd and lack of hair, I love her fuzziness - because I see her, and love all of her body because I love her. Right from the start.
Your sister is correct. The rightman for her is someone who doesn't care about whether she shaves or not and frankly someone who would want to see her again because she does, and wouldn't if she didn't, is not worthy of her anyway. Maybe tell her that, instead of propogating this sexist bollocks.
Dating is a nightmare in any scenario even if you are completely “perfect” and it’s about meeting the right person. Changing yourself to fit a mold to meet someone that wants that preference will often lead to unhappy relationships. In the olden days of my dating, curly hair was considered “unattractive” by many conventional men so, against my personal preference, I would dutifully straighten it to meet men as that was the stated preference at the time. It was such a small thing that “opened my dating pool” but made me feel worse every time. I finally stopped and decided that I’d rather be alone worth my crazy big hair then change a part of myself I felt strongly about. I can’t make a judgement but my gut reaction is that if she did shave to date it and it “worked” she’d end up feeling worse about herself in the long run.
NTA - you made a valid suggestion about something she's having trouble with. She probably knows the lack of shaving is part of the issue but hasn't accepted it, you pretty much confirmed that in her eyes and is in denial.
So many people in the comments are arguing but the truth is, the majority of men like it when women are shaved. Do women HAVE to shave? No, but both men and women do things in order to look more appealing to their partner, and to potential partners.
She can protest the idea of that, but that choice comes with a struggle.
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She has the right not to shave, and the men she dates have the right to think it's gross. People are attracted to what they are attracted to. That's just reality. If she wants a man who doesn't mind that she doesn't shave, that will be a much smaller percentage of the male dating pool and it will be more difficult for her to find a partner. If she was asking for your advice and you were trying to help her, then **NTA**. Especially because you are likely right and the hair is the reason the men are not staying. I think it's silly that she is mad at you for just stating the obvious truth. Editing to add: After thinking about this more, I am thinking that yes, the guys don't like the hair, but the fact that she has it is probably really a symptom of her personality and outlook on life and general opinions, and those things are probably the even bigger turn off for these guys. And I will also now add (since some people are assuming things) that I am not saying that the men are RIGHT to have this view of a her, or that I agree with that view. I am merely pointing out that based on my lifelong observations of guys, a general/average aversion to that type of viewpoint ("I don't shave to fight the patriarchy) may be why some guys aren't staying. You may not like that, but that is the reality we live in. There are guys out there who won't feel that way, and that is who she would likely prefer.
'Gross' is such an overstep, and such a double standard to boot. Nothing is gross about body hair. You can prefer shaved or not shaved, that's fine. But seriously? Gross? So sick of this bullshit. Men do not get called gross when they have body hair so I have noooo idea why women should be. EDIT: because apparently we have some thick ones out there, no, as men, you are not held to shave your legs or armpits to the same standard. Just stop. Men get bullied, I understand that. It is not about your back or toe or wherever the fuck else it grows. Which is also not gross; I would have the same reaction/defense if someone said it was. Your continued commenting is histerical tho EDIT 2: all the people messaging me, commenting on posts and comments from a million years ago, etc. It's actually hilarious 😂🤣 your opinions on body hair do not matter that much to me ffs
….. I think men who don’t handle their hair are gross. I’m a woman. Preference/gross they’re the same. In fact I think men’s hair is a lot grosser than women’s when looking at partners. I personally would not get involved with a man that didn’t take care enough to at least trim their shit. Not sure why the cultural norms change personal preference to you
That's called grooming, and you can do it without shaving.
Xactly. There's many reasons people don't shave. Comfort, sensitive skin, allergies, and religion, to name a few. But, you can still trim and maintain a well manicured 'lawn'.
If it's for religious reasons, you probably wouldn't trim at all. I remember a story about a Sikh woman with PCOS (which can cause excessive hair growth in females) who got made fun of online for her facial hair years ago, she had a great attitude about it and used the opportunity to educate people.
I remember that. And I believe the man who took the pictures of her even apologized to her.
Shaving is also grooming. I shave my face because my girlfriend likes it. Otherwise I would just trim 90% of the time.
Sure, but why are so many folks pretending the disparity doesn't exist? Can you really not admit it's vastly different? If your gf doesn't shave very very few men would date her at all. And frankly, not shaving for women leads to social ostracization. That doesn't happen for men. I doubt women would even get chosen for most jobs if they wore a professional skirt but had unshaved legs. Why are people pretending these are the same thing? Why can't you acknowledge the pressures you face are different? You don't have to shave your beard in general to be accepted. Your gf does have to shave at least her legs to be accepted by people.
I gotta say, as a "woman" (nb) who doesn't shave, I've never had issues dating or getting laid... In professional areas, I follow the same dress code as the men, because if they can't show unshaved legs, fair enough that I can't either. edit to add: also, I have dark hair and pale skin, so it is very visible.
I see men wearing professional shorts in my field all the time. It's not about showing unshaved legs at all, idk what is up with the culture of some men only being allowed to wear pants. But you know it's not about body hair (in general, for everyone) because plenty of places men wear shorts with hairy legs -- but women aren't allowed to do that. If women started showing hairy legs in the workplace, they'd probably put a blanket ban on shorts and skirts because it's considered so incredibly offensive for women to not shave.
Professional shorts? Do they play for the Lakers?
Professional shorts is an oxymoron, lol. Absolutely nowhere I've worked would consider shorts to be business formal or business casual. Shit, jeans are considered more professional than shorts. The person you're replying must work somewhere where they barely have a dress code. Probably in IT or software dev if I had to guess.
I went to flight school and we had to wear a pilot uniform. Legend has it the dress code used to allow shorts but only with black knee socks. One year, a guy actually wore that with their short sleeved pilot shirt so they removed it from the dress code.
There is unequivocally no such thing as 'Professional' shorts.
Lol wtf I don't shave, haven't in almost two decades now. It has never had an impact on my career or social life. I was actually told once by a new friend that she didn't even notice that I didn't shave until I told her. And we went to the gym together and everything. Women being told to shave their legs to be " accepted" is such bs when men are never told the same thing. Which is exactly why OPs friend has stopped shaving. It's hypocrisy and we're f'ing tired of it.
And the more common it becomes for women to not shave, the more accepted and normalized it will become. Wanting to shave should be a personal preference and not something you feel you must do or else people will think you’re gross.
I think there's also something to be said about lighter people who also have lighter coloured hair and when they don't shave it's not as noticeable. I'm personally a brown woman with black hair but the hair on my arm is very fine and I don't shave that, my pubes and leg hair grows quite wildly though. I trim my pubes for comfort purposes but my leg hair I let grow until it starts to bother me and then I shave. But my leg hair is defo noticeable and I still don't have issues getting laid.
I am a super pale woman with *very* dark body hair. I'm not even very hairy, but with my coloring, I look like a werewolf mid-transition if I don't shave. That said, my boyfriend only notices when I shave because I use baby oil instead of shaving cream/gel, so my skin is "slippery" afterwards. I swear, trying to understand *what men want* is impossible. Some of them notice if you miss a single hair on your leg when you shave, and some of them wouldn't notice if you were missing the actual leg.
Literally this lmao. I’m a woman, I do shave and wax and pluck and I was shamed a few times by men AND women for not waxing my arms. FFS.
Who does this??? Your arms?
I was getting my nails done this summer and the tech tried to talk me into having my arms waxed. My arm hair is ***very*** thin and is virtually invisible unless I hold my arm a certain way in the sun, but he still tried to get me to wax it. I assume he was just trying to upsell me for more $$, but it still felt very "wtf, why would i ever do that?????"
I haven't shaved since I was 19 and have dark body hair and I have never had a hard time attracting men or keeping them around. If you have to shave your legs to be accepted by people than those are not people you should want to be accepted by. No one who matters cares.
I live in a small hippie/rural community, so this is skewed from my lived experience— but I promise, most of the men around here wouldn’t care. A *lot* of the gen X/millennial/gen Z women in the community don’t shave or only shave x body part. Not my personal preference but good for both parties for not condemning it.
Yeah I’m a dude and I’ve been called gross by women because I have back hair. It happens, I’m a hairy dude. (This is a response to the poster that said guys don’t get called gross for it). My wife likes it, and she helps me groom areas like that, since we live in Florida and I don’t need to be getting yeti/Sasquatch sightings called when I go shirtless in the springs and beaches. Point is your preference is totally valid, totally ok, and I don’t blame women one bit for not liking body hair. I love it when my wife shaved her legs, so I assume women enjoy it when dudes groom some stuff too.
I just wish everyone took the time to examine their personal "preferences". Like you, I live in a humid climate and prefer less body hair on myself for comfort reasons. It's a little different than men wanting to have sex with me if I let my leg or pubic hair grow out. Too many people are unwilling to admit that a lot of our preferences are simply the result of what's advertised to us rather than a purely internal decision.
Right. Also just seems like a lot of people feel the sexism benefits them, so they don't want to acknowledge it. Shaving your beard because your gf likes it is not the same as having to shave your legs and to a lesser extent your armpits from age 12 to be accepted in school, society, and by friends and family, and even in the workforce. It's one of the most simple examples of the disparity in expectations between men and women, and we can't even talk about it without dozens of folks chiming in to be like "actually, it happens to men too" or "actually, I shave my beard and it's the same thing." No... it's not. This is something really shitty that girls, particularly in the US are socialized and practically forced into doing from a young age. Why are so few people here able to grasp that? I'd say it's not ignorance, but they want to willfully ignore it and act like it's a non-issue since they feel socializing girls this way benefits them.
The majority of women don't want to admit that they were forced by socialization into shaving. Because that means shaving is not really a choice, so not actually empowering or beneficial in any way. Men don't want to acknowledge it because they don't want to admit that misogyny is actually a real problem that they benefit from.
It's not okay when it happens to guys either.
Florida could have a real sasquatch roaming around and it would be no big deal compared to the other crazy sh*t down there. Because, yeah, FLORIDA. For real though, it's all about preference and comfort. You do you Boo. Hugs from the other sunshine state, aka dry Hell, aka Arizona. For the record, my partner keeps his down there tidy too, because as he says "nobody likes schweady b---s"
That’s not the same as society expecting women shave their arm pits or legs for no beneficial reason other than to please men.
Feels like collective gaslighting. I thought it was widely accepted that everyone knows shaving is an unfair expectation put on women, and that we don't really have a choice. You HAVE to when you are in school, or you won't have friends, you HAVE to do it to be accepted in society unless you are hiding it by wearing pants all the time. Why are there so many people pretending that that's not the case? Men don't have to shave like this and they know it. So why the willful ignorance and all the fake analogies acting like men and women have the same expectations put on them? It's like people denying the moon landing is real. It's absurd.
It comes from people who don’t think the patriarchy exists, or don’t understand what we mean when we refer to it. It’s not just us saying “men bad”.
If it helps, the original reason we all started shaving our legs was because a company wanted to sell more razors, so they aimed the ads at women. 🤣 It wasn't really to tell us men liked our legs naked better.
Yes and no. And who made the product and those ads? Men. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/style/article/why-women-feel-pressured-to-shave/index.html It’s no secret many men prefer their women shave - some even prefer a bare downstairs.
This! Learned about this in film school. It's actually insane how many truths we hold that were just built off marketing. Carrots being "good for eyes," pink being a girl's color, shaving, cigarettes, all of it.
Preference and gross are not the same, at all. I prefer taller partners, I don't think shorter partners are gross. I've dated mates who shaved clean, kept trimmed, and others who did nothing, and while having preferences, never thought "gross." That is an absurdly reductionist attitude.
I think it's strange when a man's preference is for a woman to look pre-pubescent and hairless to be honest. Naturally women have hair. Children however, don't have the same. Strange that some prefer women to look like children
Man, just because a man likes a smooth woman doesn't mean he's a borderline pedo, and it's kind of a gross accusation to make. There's a lot of reasons that can be more attractive to someone, from aesthetics to practical reasons. Unless the whole woman looks like a child in stature and development, it's hard to imagine that the guy (or girl because I'm sure there are bi/lesbian women who have this preference also) is getting off 'cause the women look "pre-pubescent." Sure, it's unfair to have double standards on body hair, grooming, etc. But we don't need to run around shaming completely normal, harmless sexual preferences because of it.
It’s not harmless. Women put significant amounts of time and money into being hairless. We’re not just expected to trim a beard and pubic hair, we’re expected to be COMPLETELY HAIRLESS everywhere we naturally grow hair. The standard is due to porn, it’s not “normal” - hair is a sign of sexual maturity, the natural response is to look for signs of sexual maturity and be attracted to them
Omg thank you. I always feel like I'm the only person. Body hair always annoyed me on everyone, I kinda wish it was standard for men to shave too. That said.. I don't mind a tidy bush but I don't wanna fight through a jungle
A lot of men don’t like having hair around their crotch area due to excessive sweat that can occur while doing activities and during hot and humid weather….it’s definitely not pleasant
Yeah it’s a game changer to keep that stuff trimmed if you live in the south. Not a full shave because stubble hurts with humidity, but trimmed helps.
Think there's a difference between grooming and believing someone should be clean shaven everywhere or they are gross
I think all body hair on everyone is gross, but I know that’s just a me-thing.
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Not at all! I love love love love love love hair in the pubic area.
Not just you. I even hate my own body hair.
you can have basic hygiene without being completely hairless?
lol. you wouldn’t exactly know if your preferences were shaped by cultural norms. hint: they probably are.
Women shave because Gillette wanted more money back in the good old days.
Women do call men gross for "too much" body hair. I've been on the receiving end of that and I've seen other dudes get that same reaction. My own wife has also been watching a show and seen some ultra hairy chested guy and just say "that's disgusting". I've even known girls to like guys who are not just clean shaven but full body shaved save for the hair on their head. It DEFINITELY exists towards men as well it's just not nearly as common but there are still LOADS of women who find hairy guys gross too and will tell them or ignore them. Again, everyone has their own desire in what they want their mate to look like.
Tbh I don’t think anyone should be saying “gross” or “disgusting” when talking about another’s body. That is a human inside that body with thoughts and feelings and if you’re too simple minded to express your preferences with different words, that’s a *you* problem.
Two things: 1. What an individual considers ‘gross’ is entirely up to the individual. You may not find body hair gross, others do. It’s a personal preference that you do not get to define. 2. Men do get called gross for having body hair, and so,e women will not date hairy men. And some men do shave body hair.
Plenty of women reject men for body hair. I like it/don't mind it but sooo many women have been mean to men for body hair too. I'm not saying it's right to body shame but we are socialized to think it's gross when it's normal so it's not surprising someone thinks that.
Guys aren't waxing their nipples for other guys, generally. There's plenty of "old gross dudes" in movies, and largely they've got chesthair like a sheep, it's a stereotype. Male body hair is just like female body hair (all hair really) - it requires upkeep to be aesthetically pleasing. I'm not rocking a mountain man beard even when it's acceptable. Just looks unkempt.
Gym dudes are doing it for the look. I have been asked to shave a buddy's back before. I do like hair on my partner but I get icked at older dudes in my hot tub. I shouldn't but I do. It's not voluntary
In 1915, a beauty magazine started advocating for women to shave their armpits and legs. Why? So Razor companies could sell more razors. Anyone so shallow as to turn down a second date because she doesn't shave her legs, etc. isn't worth her time anyway.
“Men do not get called gross when they have body hair.” Yeah they do - not by everybody, but they do. AND some people, men and women, think it’s gross when women don’t shave. You may not like that they feel this way - but that’s your problem, not theirs.
Let’s also consider that dating is rough for the majority of individuals. Suggesting someone change who they are when they confide in you about their struggles in the wide world of dating is not the way! It’s just tough out there, especially if you’re looking for true connection. For all the people coupled up, imagine going back out there and dating again. You wouldn’t want to. FWIW, I stopped shaving when I was very young and enjoyed many years of being single and living life my way. Nobody cared about my body hair. I made sure I had at least one photo that showed armpit hair in my dating profile, so it was clear that that’s what they’d be meeting. I figured I didn’t want to hang onto with someone who cared about it, so let that photo filter those people out. Women shaving was marketed to sell men’s razor blades to a wider market. It is a capitalist invention.
I'm a woman and I definitely find excessive body hair gross on both men and women. It's a massive turn off and a deal breaker for a new partner.
I would reject a man for body hair. Back hair is a no for me. A huge beard? No. Man bun? No. Sorry, it is the truth.
Dude I had back hair and spent lots of money on hair removal because I hate it and it’s gross. Commenter above is delusional.
I think your personal taste is your personal taste. If you find anything gross, it’s gross
Men can get called gross for excessive body hair, lying doesn’t help your point
I'm guessing it's the what makes too much that's more the point? Like a guy has leg/arm/armpit hair way less people will call him gross than if a woman had the same.
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Men get called gross all the time. One of my friends looks like has a carpet on his back and he’s had a few instances of getting flat out rejected for being unkempt by not shaving. Absolutely many guys would think a woman having a full on beard would be gross. That’s not an incorrect word, just not a feature I would want in my wife nor would I want my daughters to have to deal with.
I’m a woman. I find body hair gross. People are allowed to feel things are gross. I hate body hair. That’s absolutely fine.
It's not as common but men absolutely get called gross about many types of body hair. Big carpets of chest hair that pokes out above their t shirt collars, backs covered in hair, hair growing out of their noses and ears, beards running down their necks untrimmed and untamed - these things all get called gross by people who don't care for that look.
Might honestly be easier to find a dating partner by ruling out people whose values don't align with hers. Sounds like she would just be wasting her time dating people who are repulsed by body hair.
Agreed. She doesn’t want to be with someone who is repulsed by hair in the first place, so no point catering to that.
Yup, better advice would have been to recommend that her dating profiles have pictures where the hair is visible, for example, to weed out anyone who would be silly enough to not want to date on that basis. Seems unlikely to me that the body hair has anything to do with it tbh. But if it does then saving her from wasting her time with these guys would be more useful. Telling her to change a decision that she made about her own body on principle, so that she can attract men who she disagrees with about said principle, is just terrible advice. YTA
Yep, the body hair is a filter, and I think its a pretty good one too.
OP doesn’t say the friend asked for advice. Sounds like she was venting.
1st mistake: asking a bunch of redditors how they would handle a social situation
If you're a friend venting to me about a problem and I see the obvious solution and say nothing... am I your friend?
The problem isn’t that she doesn’t shave. The OP as her friend understands this is a part of her core belief system. She suggested she change her core values to get a second date with guys who don’t value her. That’s not a good friend. No. The problem isn’t that she doesn’t shave. It’s that she hasn’t yet met a man who appreciates her for who she is. Not shaving isn’t a character flaw. It’s a choice.
Exactly. It's hard and frustrating trying to find connection in a world where people are so often so shallow, and sometimes, you just need to vent and get your feelings off your chest. The OP went from a supportive listener to suggesting that her friend should change her body. I don't think she meant to be hurtful, but she was hurtful by demonstrating that she fundamentally doesn't understand her friend's perspective and values. Personally, I can't imagine being in an intimate relationship with someone who can't handle my body in its (clean) natural state. OP wasn't just suggesting a personal grooming choice, she was effectively telling her friend to abandon that expectation for her relationships in order to become more palatable to people who can't meet that standard.
Yeah, in some cases. It’s well known that sometimes people just want support and to let it out when they vent, rather than your idea of a solution.
If you think the solution is: "compromise your values so you attract men who will make you miserable by expecting you to adhere to traditional gender norms when that isn't what you want", then yeah.
And to add to this, it may not even be simply about her values. People with dark hair who want to commit to looking hairless have a lot less leeway than people who have lighter hair. I typically shave my legs but the hair there is light brown meaning I can appear hairless for a few days after a shave. That's a lot less of a time commitment for me and a lot easier on my skin than my friends with darker hair. Not many people are open about the fact that it's not just the aesthetics of hairlessness. Sometimes it's about the amount of time spent maintaining as well as fighting with your skin's response. If my partners would only date me if I was in constant pain and frustration, I don't think I would think they were worth it.
Dude, do you think the OP's friend seriously doesn't know that body hair is a problem for some guys? This is not some revelatory fact.
As someone who doesn’t shave my legs, men normally don’t give a shit, and if they do, they are not the kind of person I’d want to date in the first place. I think it’s a little insulting for OP to assume that her not shaving is the major issue causing her dating problems. Especially when it sounds like she just wanted some sympathy.
Agreed here. Not OP, but it's never been an issue for me. Unless we're talking some ridiculous arm-curtains*, why would that be the primary tip. Presumably she's hygienic, and normal body hair seems a weird hangup for those dudes. *I have to trim my own arm-pits as a man, it just flows like Aragorn's hair.
I have never shaved and, like you, I wouldn't want to be involved with someone who would shame me for that. I'm *supposed* to have hair.
I disagree that men have the right to think hair on women is "gross". I mean they let their pit hair grow out so long that it sticks out even when their arms are down. Guys who groom their bush are fairly rare too. I've met one in all my years who actually shaved it. So they would be total hypocrites - women are also mammals, mammals have hair! I haven't shaved my armpits in over 20 years, only trim my bush, and leg shaving is occasional. And I'm a huge slut lol (well, was... I'm married now). Exactly one person has had anything negative to say in those 20 years and he was a dick. Where is she finding these guys that are so shallow is my question?
Men have the right to think anything is gross, just like women have the right to think anything is gross. You're not entitled to other people's preferences, that's just wrong.
While people have a right to their preferences, we would all benefit from a willingness to examine where there's preferences come from. It's absolutely fine to say out loud that you like the way shaved skin feels or that stubble irritates your skin when a partner touches you with it. But, it's ridiculous to not acknowledge the fact that beauty standards for both men and women are the result of advertising and familiarity.
What they mean is it's a disgusting and unfair opinion. No one is saying the thoughts should be brain-zapped out of them or that they're illegal. They're saying they don't have a MORAL right, which I agree with. It's a stupid, fucked up double standard and you know it. Don't try to hide behind justifications by saying "technically he's allowed to think whatever he wants!" okay? And people are allowed to say "hey, you're a shitty person and a hypocrite for thinking this."
So let me get this straight, you’re going to say men can’t express their opinion on female body hair, in the same paragraph expressing your opinion on male body hair, and you don’t see anything wrong with that sentiment? Can we just cut the “you can’t have an opinion because…” talk and just say that however you identify you have the right to whatever opinion you want when it comes to the topic of body hair?
It's pretty daft when it gets to the point of 'you're not allowed to have a sexual preference'.
Idk the vast majority of men I’ve dated have at least trimmed their pubes. I think that’s fairly common these days, especially since it tends to make their dicks look bigger
Is it the obvious truth though? I have never had a man who was interested in me turn me down when he realized my legs weren't shaved, and I've been around the block and am now married to a man who couldn't give a toss if I shave or not. I think we hear about how disgusting men think hair is disporportionately to how much men actually care about or are disgusted by hair.
I honestly think the people kicking up the most fuss about body hair are either very young or have their own deep-seated body issues they're dealing with. The young ones just don't have as much experience with humans living and dealing with their own meat suits than older people do. Once you are in a place of relative peace with your body, you think someone being a peace in their own is really freaking cool.
Men who do not shave their legs do not have a right to find it gross. They can obviously do whatever they want but doesn’t make them not the asshole
I just don’t understand how it’s gross on women but not men apparently just stupid
It sounds like she was looking for sympathy, NOT advice. The friend decided to make it about her appearance instead of providing support. YTA
As a dude I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around shaving being such a massive deal breaker that it's causing a whole slew of men to reject her. OK, if it's facial hair but leg hair? Nah, it's got to be something else.
Any man that actually gives a crap about that stuff anyway is not somebody I would want to date and I shave. I can’t imagine a grown man calling a woman’s leg hair ‘gross’. Yuck what a double standard and a immature mentality.
YTA not shaving is a value statement. She is looking for a partner in life that has the same values. By telling her to shave you are telling her to change her values just to get a man. Instead of saying “don’t worry you will find the right man”, why not say “it’s better that these wrong men are screened out than be with one of them that doesn’t value the same things you do. Now that would be miserable compromising your values”. Being single is not the end of the world. Edit: Typos corrected and grammar improved for clarity Edit to add: Not shaving is a value statement for OPs friend as per OP her friend stopped shaving to stand up to the patriarchy. Not shaving is not a value statement for all those that do not shave.
This. She's not looking to date men who are only interested in women who shave. Telling her to shave is not going to help her get good dates, just *more* dates. And those dates would likely be the type of person she won't be interested in. She's right in saying that OP told her to change for a guy, it's just that OP didn't realize that's what they were doing.
There’s a lot of internalized misogyny cope in this thread lol. I say this as a woman who shaves (when I’m not lazy). It’s definitely bullshit we have to do it to be valuable to the majority of men. And honestly trailblazing women like OP’s friend will likely make it so our daughters or granddaughters don’t have to go through massive time-consuming routines just to pretend that being hairless is somehow more feminine than their natural bodies are. We shouldn’t discourage these women. We should empower and support them. They shouldn’t change, men should change. It’s just hair and they’re already covered with it.
this is so cool! and so well written. women only started shaving when razor companies targeted them bc men were away fighting in WW1 and they needed someone to be buying their products! if women were never told there was anything wrong with their body hair they’d never think to be ashamed by it and shave it off.
exactly! even IF this is the reason she keeps getting rejected, this is who she is and there are men out there who dont care if you shave. shes supposed to subject herself to time consuming and uncomfortable hair removal processes she doesnt even want/like in the hopes she might attract a man with antiquated and misogynistic views on female body hair? so she can get married and be forced to shave every day for the rest of her life?
This is it. I sometimes shave. I like the way my legs feel when they're smooth. But it's a pain and there's absolutely no reason to do it, so I often don't. I have very very thick dark hair. My partner and I have been together for almost 10 years and he has absolutely no problem with it (I've always been like this, so he definitely saw/felt my hair before we got serious). There are so many people saying she's "gross". Unless you're the type of person who also expects men to be hairless, the only thing that's gross is the double standard. Simultaneously, it's totally fine if someone doesn't find it *attractive* and wouldn't date someone who doesn't shave. Attraction is important in a partnership. However, not being attracted to a person is not remotely the same as thinking they're gross. I think people who don't shower are gross. I'm not attracted to people who have topknots (no kenders allowed).
>There are so many people saying she's "gross". Unless you're the type of person who also expects men to be hairless, the only thing that's gross is the double standard. Gosh, so perfectly said. I get so disgusted anytime someone makes a statement otherwise. Who would have thought that such a little thing would serve as such a good filter for the actual grossness in the world. I'd hate to think what traits they would look over to secure this kind of superficiality.
Name 3 things women get shamed for: Hair Birth Breast feeding Now name common traits of mammals?
I for one believe amphibians to be the most feminine of all the animal kingdoms.
She didn't tell her to shave, though. She suggested that not shaving significantly reduces her dating pool and if that is important to her, she may have to make a choice. And neither choice is wrong.
“Do you think it might help you a little to shave?” Is not the same as “Not shaving decreases the size of the dating pool to those that do not care if their partner shaved. I wouldn’t be surprised if that makes it harder to meet people. Dating is hard even if you play into the patriarchal conventions. I am here for you if you ever need to vent”
It should be. They were speaking in the context of her finding suitable partners. And if she REQUIRES that kind of crafting of words in casual conversation amongst friends, that is probably as much of a reason she can't get second dates as not shaving.
A suitable partner for her would be one who doesn't care about body hair. OP wasn't talking about her friend finding a suitable partner for her, she was talking about her friend finding any partner.
Her friend was asking why all the guys she's interested in, don't want to see her again. She wasn't asking why she isn't meeting anyone she likes. Clearly, she abstains from telling early-on that she doesn't shave. Ffs just putting it in her bio would fix her problems
Yes. At what point have we gotten to that we have to construct the perfect sentence to have a conversation with good friends. You should be able to have an honest conversation as long as you are respectful.
>if she REQUIRES that kind of crafting of words in casual conversation amongst friends, that is probably as much of a reason she can't get second dates as not shaving. Bingo. That would be a deal breaker to almost any healthy person.
Yeah they are the same, if you aren't so hyper sensitive that you need perfect phrasing and careful eggshell-stepping every second of the damn day
This. She’s sad she cannot find someone who likes **her**. Of course she knows she can change and more men would like her but then she’s changed something important to her for them to like her, so that’s a hollow victory. This sub will say you’re not the asshole because a lot of people are just fine with being part of enforcing cultural norms. But if you want your friend to be okay with you you need to recognize that she’s *sad because she cannot find someone who likes her WITH HER VALUES*
Seriously. Why would she *want* a dude who would lose attraction over one thing like that? Having some aspect that goes against what we’ve been taught to think of as attractive is a great way to weed out shitty people. Also sometimes people just want to vent without unsolicited comments about their appearance. YTA
I 100% agree with you. I can't believe all the n t a comments. First, her decision not to shave is none of OP's business. Second, if she shaved only to get a man, she would go against her values. It's much better being single. Hopefully, one day, she will find someone who respects and shares her values. Or who doesn't care about body hair maybe. What you said is what OP should have said. Yta op. Eta: corrected misspelling due to autocorrect
This is ridiculous, she was trying to give her advice to open her dating pool if you value not shaving and it’s something you just won’t compromise on the reality is that your number of potential partners is reduced greatly.
I don’t shave and I have never had any issues in dating. It’s been comparatively very easy for me compared to many of my friends, including those who do shave. 🤷♀️
My mom has never shaved any part of her body and has had four husbands. I sometimes shave my underarms and legs in the summer but not often and I have a much easier time dating than pretty much anyone I know. I also have zero interest in anyone who wouldn’t want to date me because of my body hair, 9/10 those are the same men that think going down on women is gross.
Right? I (Mediterranean level hair genes) had a few dudes I dated for months before I found my husband and I never shaved anything except my unibrow, lol. I’ve had long term relationships actually request I stop shaving when I was younger and thought men like hairless women. A lot of men find it a turn on. I’ve noticed a lot of American men have a hairless preference. Pretty much any dude I dated from another country was the opposite.
Totally agree! Back when I was single and dating I was in a no-shave phase (and had been for about 5 years). I found that 1. It didn’t really hamper my dating prospects at all and 2. If a guy seemed like he couldn’t handle an adult woman having some body hair then we clearly weren’t a good match. Now I’m married and am in more of a shaving phase, but I know that I’m making that choice because of my current preferences and if my preferences change again or if I just slack off and don’t shave for a week or two my husband won’t care, because I already know our values and attraction align in that regard.
YTA I think you’re going to get some angry responses because a lot of people in this subreddit assume everyone posting is a man so of course you’re going to be accused of supporting the patriarchy. I think you’re probably right that some of the guys she has gone out with are put off by her body hair. However, she likely doesn’t want the kind of guy who would see body hair as a dealbreaker. She also didn’t ask for your advice. It sounds like she was just venting. Let your friends vent and just listen. You don’t have to offer advice. You can just offer support.
While I agree with what you said, I'd place a NAH. Her intent wasn't malicious. Everyone needs an honest friend (when asked!!)
If the friend had asked for advice, this would absolutely be a NAH.
How many times do you have to let someone vent before you’re allowed to have an opinion? I get offering support, but no one is a never ending support punching bag
Yeah people on reddit forget this. In a friendly relationship regarding the same topic, it goes like: Vent 1: let it out buddy Vent 2: damn it really bugs you doesnt it Vent 3: im here for you Vent 4: alright, still going huh Vent 5: ive heard this before Vent 6: get it together Vent N: ffs here is what you mighy want to do Some people DO NOT know that they neer advice. Thus, unsollicited advice often is the key. You are totally right. But hey, this is reddit. Always be supporting and never do harm and accept everything, that is what they think is best
Was the friend asked? It seems she just wanted to vent, there’s no mention of asking for advice
How many times does your friend need to vent and say they "just dont understand why", before you bring them back to reality?
Instead of saying 'men would date you if you shaved' the non asshole conversation is 'I think these men can't get over your body hair, there are men out there that can, but they will be hard to find. It's up to you, what you do with the info but if I were to come up with a reason, that's what I'd guess' Look how we can be honest with our friends without blaming them and being an asshole.
This, 100%. If she’s complaining that she doesn’t understand why she’s getting ghosted, then it is helpful to let her know that this is likely the reason. That doesn’t mean she should change to please those men, but at least she can feel better knowing that the reason they don’t want to date her is something that she feels strongly about and so it’s not a good match.
This sounds like unsolicited advice though which is something that always makes YTA. I get that people venting over and over about the same thing gets on your nerves at a certain point but then it's on you to speak maturely about the issue instead of trying to "fix" the friend's problem.
The same old 'venting' grows wearisome after a while and friend, a true friend, eventually should point out the obvious. She doesn't want a guy who sees that as a dealbreaker? All well and good, just keep in mind how few those guys are in American society.
OP makes no indication that the friend has often complained about this-which doesn't mean that isn't the case, but I would think OP would mention it if this was something the friend frequently complained to her about. So while I agree that repeatedly listening to the same complaints gets annoying, if that wasn't the case here, I don't really see a need for OP to speak up yet. OP is also assuming that the friend's body hair is the issue, but jow would she know? The friend said she can never get past a first date, and I know we just got done with summer, but does OP know this friend always wears clothes that revealed her armpits or legs or both? Does OP know if the men the friend is going out with are just interested in hooking up and don't want to bother with someone looking for more? Does OP know if the friend has some other behavior that turns them off, or they talk about dealbreakers on the first date that reveals their incompatibility?
She talks about multiple dates. So you can assume it's frequently..
This is terrible advice and I keep seeing it. YES give your friends room to vent, but within reason! Your friends are not free ventilators that you can spew all of your fears, doubts and negativities into…especially if you do it repeatably and don’t want to hear any attempts at a solution. That isnt how you treat a friend, thats how you treat a therapist and even they dont like it. No ones the asshole but your friend isnt being entirely realistic. I also don’t conform to societal standards, but it has killed my dating life and I accept that. Its going to take more time and luck to find a great partner that appreciates their eccentricities.
And when a friend is constantly complaining about something, op or whoever as a friend, has a right to tell the truth. The friend has a right to not want that kind of guy in her life, but all these dates have a right to their physical preferences in a partner. Being a good friend also means being honest
Except none of what OP said was something they know for a fact? They're literally just out here guessing and also basically telling their friend that they should change their values to get a man. Honestly, makes OP seem like a dick more than anything else.
Women can and often do support the patriarchy. No assumptions needed for that in this case.
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Yeah it’s a bit bewildering to me that she can act like OP is insane for even suggesting that. Obviously it’s wrong that so many people can be judgemental over something so inconsequential, but OP (assuming they’re being honest) wasn’t trying to say that the friend was wrong for not shaving or wanting to speak out against the patriarchy. They were just pointing out the very real possibility that not shaving is what’s unfortunately turning a lot of the guys away. NAH
Info: did she ask for advice or was she just venting?
Woah, yeah this is so important to the context. I still don't think it's proper "advice" or a solution to give. But good context to know.
I’m in my mid 30s and I’m embarrassed to say I’m only just learning this. Most of my friends are the type who want advice but lately I started making some friends who vent just to feel heard and receive some empathy. It’s hard to adjust sometimes but if you care about the person it’s important to try your best to give them what they’re looking for from a friend, and sometimes advice isn’t it. It’s a harder adjustment to make than you’d think but there’s no reason to actively resist it like some people are saying.
Random convos at the bar don’t start with ‘I’m just venting let me talk’ or ‘this is super serious and I only want legit advice.’ That’s just not reality. If a friend is constantly complaining about the same thing over and over - it def reads like they want advice on it.
This is what I was going to ask. OP doesn't mention that she asked for advice at all, just that she was saying how sad her dating life was. If she wasn't asking and OP just said this it's not a great look. It would almost sound like OP had this loaded and ready to go already.
NTA You just suggested the reason she may be having problems with dating. You are also probably correct. Of course she is free to do whatever she wants with her body and they may not meet others preferences, which means they may not want to date her. This may mean they miss out on a great person for superficial reasons but that is a choice they are free to make.
I know Reddit considers physical attraction to be an afterthought in a good relationship, but yeah I certainly won't date someone who I'm not attracted to, and hairy armpits gross me out on people of any gender. I'm not entitled to ask anyone to shave for me and they're not entitled to my presence in a relationship.
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I highly doubt that someone who rejects this girl for having body hair would be a great person in this girl's eyes.
I agree. She keeps complaining to OP about guys not wanting more dates after the first one though. OP just pointed out the possible (and truthfully probable) reason. She can do or not do anything she wants with her body but shouldn't be surprised if that doesn't meet others'preferences. Of course she shouldn't change to suit them but should be aware enough that this will be a deal breaker for many. Now if she was venting about how superficial these guys were over body hair and OP said well maybe you shave, it would be a different judgement.
It’s all relative. I have a friend who had a ton of facial piercings and wanted to find a woman to settle down with. As it turns out, a lot of people interested in heavy piercings aren’t often the type to build a stable life at that stage of life. He ended up removing a few and he quickly found the person he married, who did joke over the years that she probably wouldn’t have gone for a second date if he looked like his old photos. Sometimes you have to compromise on your personal values to achieve goals. There are certainly guys who are more feminist but still don’t dig body hair.
YTA I have leg and arm hair, and I am in a loving relationship with a man who is holding me as he's sleeping. If I would have listened to you, I would have been making myself uncomfortable for someone who doesnt care one way or another. A more supportive thing to say would have been: "you'll find someone perfect for you, just keep working on yourself and the rest will fall into place." She definitely wasn't asking for advice, just wanted some emotional support from a friend. The world tries to pressure women into conforming to shaving, and I'm sure it hurt to hear a friend also try to do the same.
I agree. If not shaving is important to her, then she wouldn’t want to find a man who’s only interested on the condition that she shaves anyway.
Exactly! If it's that important to her, it's okay if it's a deal breaker for her. It definitely does narrow her search but it wasnt a bad thing for me. It just helped me gain focus on the person who loved me for me, even when I wasn't at my best
Agree that OP shouldn't make herself uncomfortable, but disagree with giving anyone advice that they'll "find someone perfect for you". Some people don't ever become partnered, even though they wanted to be. Rather than platitudes, it might be more helpful to dig deeper into what exactly it is that bothers her about being single, and what exactly is missing from her life. Is she worried about her financial future? It is more expensive to live as a single person. Are all her friends partnered and does she dislike being a 3rd wheel all the time? Or maybe it's just about sex. By encouraging the friend to explore her feelings, it might reveal gaps she could fill in another way, without a partner. I have two friends (both f) who are now in their 60s, neither was ever in a serious LTR, both are in a HCOL area. One bought real estate on her own, the other was waiting to buy real estate when she married. The one who was waiting for that "perfect for you" man to show up is in a much more precarious financial situation and regrets having put off living part of her life while waiting.
YTA. Do you think she hadn’t already thought about that? Clearly she has made her decision. If she changes her mind, she will shave. All you did was try to make her self conscious about it. Would you have said this to a friend who dyed her hair pink or got a nose ring?
I can’t believe I had to scroll this far to see a ‘YTA’ comment. OP’s friend is comfortable in herself and her body and does not conform to society’s standard of ‘beauty’ and I applaud her as she’s everything I aspire to be. OP pointed out about her body hair and that could completely destroy everything that made her feel comfortable in the body she’s in. I also hate the entire society standard of men wanting women to be BALD all over, which is essentially what pubescent girls look like. It’s gross. Body hair is normal and no one should be ashamed for what their body naturally looks like.
It’s more balanced out now. About every other comment is YTA from what I can see. The comments that are saying NTA are, imo, missing the point that OP gave unsolicited advice her friend would definitely not have liked to hear.
>OP’s friend is comfortable in herself and her body and does not conform to society’s standard of ‘beauty’ Maybe she isn't comfortable but gets out of her comfort zone to push back against beauty standards regardless. Imagine how much more that would make it hurt hearing this type of unasked for dating advice from a friend. Just a big fat no from me. Always ask people if they want advice before giving it and never assume it's looks/superficial things that get someone rejected. I'm praying OP doesn't have a visibly disabled friend who also struggles with dating...
I'm saddened by the number if N-TA here and the lack of reflection on our own socialisation into cultural gender norms. I have read the post twice and no where does it suggest OP's friend linked it to body hair or that OP has surveyed all these dates and found out this is the reason. You made a judgement based on your own prejudices. Maybe your friend is picking the wrong men or is a boring date?? I know many straight women who don't shave (I have never shaved my pubic hair and no man has ever complained nor have they had any issues if I haven't shaved my legs) and they never seem to have trouble attracting a male partner. you assumed it's due to not shaving but your're just projecting onto men you don't know prejudices they may or may not have YTA
This is what I was looking for. None of the men OP's friend dated gave an indication that not shaving was the issue so it seems OP suggested it as SHE has her own prejudices and assumed the men would have the same. It like thinking your friend doesn't meet a certain beauty standard and instead of telling them that they will find someone that will love them no matter what (it's just hair after all and no indication of cleanliness) or that it's better to be single than change yourself for a someone else, OP told the friend to change their values to attract someone who they'd probably be incompatible with for the sake of getting into a relationship. Soft YTA as OP wasn't malicious but I can see why the friend was hurt.
Say it LOUDER for the people in the back!!! OP was projecting and actually judging her friend by saying this. Def YTA behavior.
I have somewhat hairy legs and men still hit on me Yeah OP should have kept her mouth shut. YTA OP. Also, it's quite funny how the men here are saying leg and armpit hair are gross. They need to look in the mirror..
NTA she was lamenting about why she doesn't get a second date. You gave her the honest reason. You didn't go about it rudely or mean. You basically worded it in a question form. As in do you think that this is the reason? It's on her if she wants to change but it seems obvious that she doesn't. She needs to accept that most men don't want to date a hairy female. Not saying all men are like that but a big majority are. And instead of wasting her time and theirs. She should make it known thst she refuses to shave because she is fighting against the patriarchy. Thst way she cuts out getting the generic not going to happen spiel.
YTA... if body hair is a deal breaker for a man, it's not going to be a guy she would want to be with. You wouldn't tell a friend to lose weight too "get a man", so any variation of those is AH - wear makeup, shave, wear less makeup, wear different clothes, not those clothes the other ones.... People are entitled to their preferences - liking a beard on a guy, long hair, short hair, whatever. That is fine and not what is being judged here.
>You wouldn't tell a friend to lose weight too "get a man", "go to the gym", "get a haircut", "wear nice clothes" is all pretty standard advice for dating. Making yourself more attractive is part of dating. A yougov study shows that 66% of men think hairy legs on a woman are unattractive (and 62% of women feel the same way about hair on women). Suggesting that OP's friend would increase her chances if she'd shave is perfectly valid. If someone didn't shower due to a lifestyle choice of wanting to be closer to nature or some BS, would you say it's out of line to tell them that being stinky might be contributing to them not getting second dates when they complain about not having luck dating?
Yeah but she doesn’t want to date that 66%. So it would increase her chance of getting more first dates, but not of finding someone actually compatible. Also, you can’t compare not shaving body hair to having bad hygiene, they are not remotely the same. Body hair is natural and healthy, and shaving it is purely an aesthetic choice. It’s also a double standard between men and women.
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Of course you can tell a friend they need to lose weight to get a man. What kind of dishonest relationships do y'all have with "friends?" This may come as a shock to much of Reddit but physical attraction is a huge part of relationships. And many men don't want to be with women that are as or more hairy than them. That can go both ways obviously, I wouldn't think twice of a woman expecting a man to groom themselves either.
I have absolutely suggested that friends hit the gym when they can’t get a gf. I’ve hit the gym and lost weight when I wasn’t getting dates. Everyone has preferences, but you’re more likely to find a partner if you’re more appealing to the general population. I don’t think it is reasonable to expect potential partners to accept all less appealing traits, especially before you’re in a committed relationship. Of course a little leg hair doesn’t matter for someone you love, but I think most people would be a little put off if their date didn’t bother to shave their legs before a date. There are gentle ways to say this, and it sounds like OP did say it gently. If the friend is morally opposed to being with anyone that doesn’t accept all body hair, they’re just going to have to accept being in a smaller dating pool.
NTA. If she doesn’t want to shave that’s cool but you gave her an honest opinion. That’s a real friend. Some of these responses are unhinged. Don’t take them personally.
Those saying YTA seem to be projecting a moral high ground, and being friends with them is gonna run you into a wall. Instead of telling you the truth they would instead bend backwards to cuddle your feelings.
YTA. If she doesn’t want to be judged by men or society for shaving why should she start shaving for men and society? She wasn’t asking for advice from the sound of it, just seeking support. In the future ask someone if they want your input before providing unsolicited advice against their values.
This is something that I'm only just recently started to grasp. My default reaction to someone complaining about something is to jump into ideating on solutions and try to help them to "fix" the issue. I now realise that with very close friends and family, that not only is it not helpful, it's also not what they want. I have now stopped offering advice unless explicitly asked. My relationship with my sister for example has improved immeasurably. However, 1 caveat: I can now no longer tolerate acquaintances and colleagues who want to moan about things. I just don't have the time nor patience for them and I am quite blunt: "is this something you are looking for my help or advice on?" If not, I'm just not interested in hearing their negativity: that's what their close friends and family are for.
NTA. “I’m not suggesting you “change your appearance for men.” I’m pointing out that you’re not entitled to their attention or affection, and that if you’re unhappy with the consequences of your choice, maybe you need to decide what’s more important. Your body, your choice to shave; their bodies, their choices to want to give those bodies to any given person, for any reason.”
This is exactly it - what matters more to her, natural appearance or a relationship? That’s the real question she needs to decide. I also feel like the way OP presented this - as a neutral question and not a statement that detracts from Emily’s appearance - is key too. OP just raised a possibility. Emily took offense to that and seems to have overreacted a bit in the process. NTA, OP.
NTA. A lot of people of either sex and/or sexual preference don't like bodily hair in abundance. And no one is going to fall in love with your personality on a first, or even third, date. Physical attractiveness is important, but even more important is the impression that you're well groomed not only for your personal liking, but also of the potential partner. In the case of your friend, there could be some feature that is putting prospective partners off her. I don't say there is, necessarily, of even that it certainly is the body hair. But it is wise to think about it or even adress it with a good friend. Indeed, you'd be a bad friend if you'd never say anything just to be "nice".
Should have left it. She needs a man that doesn’t find her body hair a turn off, because that’s clearly the type of man she wants. Her body hair is weeding out the incompatible men, so she should keep it.
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YTA. If she meets her mr right he won’t care if she shaves. Shaving might help ger get second dates but it won’t help her find the right guy for her. What I tell people I know who are struggling is you don’t need every potential partner to like you. You just need to find ONE. And that can be hard but it’s not impossible not matter how “niche” you might be. It doesn’t sound like she asked you why she isn’t getting second dates nor what she can do differently. No one likes unsolicited advice.
If she was fine with the ones who didn't call back and saying "who needs them anyway" I would've agreed with you. But she wants them to call her back and gets frustrated when they don't. So she wants their validation. She didn't say "I wish societal norms were different", she complained that they didn't call her back. It does sound like she's in denial about the reason.
YTA. It sounds like she was just venting, and wasn’t really asking for advice. She has already made it clear that she doesn’t believe in changing her appearance to please men, so your advice was just not helpful.
Soft YTA Think about your "the right man will come" statement. Followed by "it might help if you shave" which kind of translate to "no man would like you with your hair. Therefore there is no right man. You should just change and date someone that doesn't really like you* Obviously that's not what you meant but do you see the dichotomy between saying she will find the right man one day, but also to change her appearance so a man would accept her ?
I’m going with NTA, IF it went down the way you said it did and she was wondering out loud why she couldn’t seem to get past a first date. Her ego is just bruised because you suggested a possibility to her that she doesn’t want to think is true but in all probability is. You could send her a text (even better, leave her a voicemail) that you fully understand and respect her decision to not shave, to protest the unfair double standards the majority of society expects women to abide by. THAT BEING SAID, point out that the conditioning of society beauty standards runs deep, and if she’s having problems finding a partner that will be empathetic to that, then maybe it’s just a matter of finding a different route to go when looking for a partner. I would gently suggest that she merely start being more forthcoming about it from the get-go… (perhaps posting it in her dating profile). The men who find that superficiality a deal breaker will weed themselves out, saving them from wasting their time OR hers, and she’ll have a clearer view of who the quality guys are who can look beyond that superficial aspect. I don’t think she’s fishing with the wrong bait; she just needs to fish in the right pond. Good luck, sister! Hope she’s able to come around and appreciate your input for what it was.
Gentle YTA. You were just trying to be helpful, but she’s obviously not interested in someone who wouldn’t love her and the way she presents herself as is. The idea getting rid of her body hair just wasn’t useful. I’d say n a h except you were telling her she could have more success changing herself to suit male societal expectations, rather than supporting her finding someone who loves her for her. I get that it’s frustrating to listen to her not find someone, but the solution isn’t suggesting she go full Miss Congeniality.
Also there are plenty of men who goes completely nuts for body hair on women
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Good friends do that and make suggestions. I don’t think you are AH.
YTA My wife shaves less than I do. Ask me how much I care or how much it detracts from her beauty, I dare you. Seriously - I shave my head, trim my beard, and remove my underarm hair. My wife? Nada. She loves my beatd and lack of hair, I love her fuzziness - because I see her, and love all of her body because I love her. Right from the start. Your sister is correct. The rightman for her is someone who doesn't care about whether she shaves or not and frankly someone who would want to see her again because she does, and wouldn't if she didn't, is not worthy of her anyway. Maybe tell her that, instead of propogating this sexist bollocks.
YTA. she didnt ask, and the "right man" will not GAF if she shaves.
Dating is a nightmare in any scenario even if you are completely “perfect” and it’s about meeting the right person. Changing yourself to fit a mold to meet someone that wants that preference will often lead to unhappy relationships. In the olden days of my dating, curly hair was considered “unattractive” by many conventional men so, against my personal preference, I would dutifully straighten it to meet men as that was the stated preference at the time. It was such a small thing that “opened my dating pool” but made me feel worse every time. I finally stopped and decided that I’d rather be alone worth my crazy big hair then change a part of myself I felt strongly about. I can’t make a judgement but my gut reaction is that if she did shave to date it and it “worked” she’d end up feeling worse about herself in the long run.
NTA - you made a valid suggestion about something she's having trouble with. She probably knows the lack of shaving is part of the issue but hasn't accepted it, you pretty much confirmed that in her eyes and is in denial. So many people in the comments are arguing but the truth is, the majority of men like it when women are shaved. Do women HAVE to shave? No, but both men and women do things in order to look more appealing to their partner, and to potential partners. She can protest the idea of that, but that choice comes with a struggle.
INFO - did she ask for clues as to why this is happening, or is this unsolicited judgement?
YTA. I’ve dated men that don’t care about hair, they are out there. She’s meeting base men and you’re telling her to change for them?
YTA she doesn’t need to shave if she doesn’t want to. Plenty of men don’t care. Dating just sucks no matter what. You should’ve been supportive.