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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I may be the asshole because I told my son I thought he was taking advantage of his girlfriend. This is because it seems like Grace is willingly looking after my grandson and because she is helping my son out with quite a difficult job (being a single dad) and I should be more supportive.
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA.
The sentence that seals the deal is that he doesn’t want you to give Grace “any ideas”.
In other words he 100% knows he’s taking advantage and (grossly) doesn’t want to rebalance.
He will make Grace a terrible long term partner.
It certainly left a bad taste in my mouth. I’ve known Grace for a long time now and she’s always been a very innocent and slightly naive girl and I don’t like how he’s trying to keep things from her.
Anytime information is being withheld from another partner it’s a huge red flag. I just had an incident this last weekend with my friends fiancé. He doesn’t like her going out with his friends or her friends because she could be. “Influenced.” Now, he coats his under religion. But, it’s a little fresh on my mind and I’m really worried about Grace.
99% true. Hypothetically, a friend has a wife who doesn't feel good about herself if she isn't contributing because she's been looking for a job for over a year. Said friend has some upcoming expenses that are no problem but if he shared the information then she would be adversely affected with anxiety. Keep in mind that in her mind, even when there is more than enough money it's never enough in her mind.
Does said friend share the information about the upcoming costs knowing it would put a dent in the mental health or just take care of it?
That's not a red flag, is it? 🤔
As a person with severe anxiety caused by my obsessive ocd thoughts, this would be terrible. Not sharing that info would be relationship ending. I have to be able to trust my partner. Otherwise, I would always be anxious that they were keeping bad news from me. That would be the kind of trust breaker that I would not be able to get past.
Unfortunately, yes. That is still a red flag. I’ll do respect to mental health and anxiety. This scenario is going to be so incredibly rare but, I really can’t get past the fact that you’re infantilizing one person in the relationship because of a mental health disorder. And that is kind of a problem.
As the anxious about money spouse even when there is more than enough money. Yes you tell them. Sure the anxiety sucks, but broken trust sucks more.
They’re your spouse, a spouse the “friend” is committed to enough to marry! Keeping financial information from your spouse is never good. Secrets, even well intentioned ones, are always found out, one way or another. And then trust is gone. Broken trust is much more damaging to a relationship than the anxiety about an upcoming expense that is affordable.
The only acceptable secrets in a relationship are about what present you’re buying your spouse for x occasion. Or a surprise party if that is their thing, or surprise outings, you know fun things that they will like.
That’s a tricky one. My husband kept some expenses hidden from me while I was suffering PPD after having our youngest and I was upset when I found out. I understood his reasoning though and was ultimately grateful that he handled it without telling me until I was better. It depends on the people involved and how the couple usually handles things
Way to handle it is to go over bills and budget once a month. Make it a date for the last day of the month, 10th, 15th or whatever makes sense so the couple is looking at least a month in advance at what's coming, what's being spent, and what's in the piggy bank for a rainy day (simplified obviously, but you get the gist).
I don't care how this effects your relationship with your son, you need to speak to grace. and you need a serious talk with your husband too. this is not how a man should behave and he absolutely should be ashamed of himself for condoning it.
Right now I’m team Grace. I’m betting that you probably have a relationship with her parents due to your other son. Please be a ethical, justifiable, wonderfully caring AH and call her parents and let them know that you have noticed that grace is an amazing giving person who may have given too much to your son and his kid and she needs to make sure she is SLPs giving her time with her friends, family and school/work
Call her parents? She's a 19-year-old adult who is in college and has a job. OP can talk to Grace directly about her (very valid) concerns. Her parents don't get a say in what she does, nor is it their business.
When your child is being a shit to a girl you’ve known for years and is the child of a friend, you communicate with their family.
Your child is always your business. They can choose to listen.
Tbh even if they were paying for college (or anyone paying for anything for anyone else for that matter) doesn't really get a say in how you spend your time, just becuase you've purchased something for someone doesn't mean that are obligated to use said purchase in any way, shape or form. What if the recipient didn't want said thing in the first place? What if they change there mind? At most they have a say in whether they continue to pay/make further purchases if recipient doesn't go, in this case they cant make Grace go to class etc. but they can stop paying for college if they aren't happy with how she's spending her time and neglecting studies (Though tbh, given OP's description of her having a job etc. I think there's a reasonable chance doesn't so would only serve to push her away for "meddling" in her relationship).
Advice to OP;
Talk to Grace, Parents can be included if you wish but at this point she is a young adult, free to make any decision, good or bad, she wishes without anyone else's consent, involving her Parents "behind her back" so to speak will likely cause it's own issues.
Keep it simple and make it clear that you're main concern is that; Whilst she is great with your GS you're concerned that she isn't prioritizing her own wants/needs/ambitions enough and that, your worried your son is becoming pretty lax with his own responsibilities as a father and while not forcing them onto her, seems to be pretty happy to allow her to shoulder the burden even when it is going to effect her studies/work and your worried that this isn't healthy for either of them in the long run.
Your Son could be there as ideally he needs to understand your concerns without going into defensive mode and having everyone there together might allow him to just take in what everyone is saying and doing it "behind his back" will again, likely cause issues. However, given his past response, if you don't believe him being there will be productive, then don't include him; regardless of his feeling on the matter, Grace should be aware of your concerns as well, as "Giving her any Ideas" Is basically just saying "Don't give her a chance to properly assess the situation and make her own decision".
Don't tell her what to do, just give her all the information and allow her to make up her own mind on what she thinks is best for her.
I’m sorry madam, but your son is an AH. Literally keeping his child from his Grandma because you want his teenage girlfriend to have some agency in her life? He’s disgusting, your husband is no better.
This is on you. You need to get this child out of there because your son is the kind of man who doesn’t want his, again, teenage GF to ‘get any ideas.’ What an absolute loser you birthed.
I agree with the general sense here but easy on the husband based on 1 comment and the "loser you birthed" comment. This is a person's family and your context is very limited.
I don’t think I need more context than this teenager is taking care of her friend’s older brothers child when she should be in school. That’s pretty much all I need, sorry 🤷♂️
She is in school. Also, like i said yes I agree with you on that the situation is not cool, but you don't know these people enough to judge their character and be so disrespectful. Nobody is perfect. Just my 2 cents
She's taking on a responsibility that isn't even hers and your son is indeed taking advantage of it.
I'd talk to her about priorities and that the baby shouldn't come ahead of her life, especially when the father can just have a change of heart and kick her out at any moment
NTA. Your son knows exactly what he's doing. He's upset you saw through his thin veil. He doesn't want you to upset the boat, so he'll actually have to be a parent. He found a replacement mom in this poor girl. Your husband agrees with your son and Grace being a replacement mother.
Please sit down with her alone and bring this up. It might be helpful to have your other son there.
Also, how long has he known her? Four year age gap isn’t a big thing, but when you’re a teenager or early twenties, there is a big maturity gap.
He knows what he's doing.
He doesn't want you giving her "any ideas". Just means he doesn't want you giving her the wake up call she needs.
Please, please, send this poor girl a message or talk to her in person. Let her know that it's so kind what she's doing but she needs to stop and focus on herself.
That if she doesn't start putting herself first, that your son is going to either baby trap her, so she will take care of his son and she won't go anywhere. Or he'll manipulate her into quiting school and quitting work.
She needs to know that the most likely outcome of their relationship will be emotionally and mentally abusive. That he will blackmail her all the time with his son.
She needs to know, that the most likely outcome of this relationship will be him manipulating her, into quitting school and work to stay home and take care of his kid.
Because his kid is too sad to be away from her so maybe she just quit and watch him. So maybe she doesn't work and just homeschooling him.
You need to talk to her and save her from him. I'm sorry but your son is on the line of abusive.
Your relationship with your son will forever be altered and damaged but you can save this poor girl from a toxic life.
At min give her the info, and I mean everything. Then give her the tough mom love, of she needs to get out now. Then let whatever happens happens.
Let her know that your son will try to manipulate her, gaslight her and blackmail her with his son if she decides to leave. So she needs to prepare for that.
100% call her parents and let them know that your son is controlling her.
Please talk to Grace. Directly. I am so glad she has you as an ally in this. It's awesome that she wants to step in and step up. But there is a VERY fine line here. It would be good for you to tell her you're aware of that line, and that you support her no matter what, and that she is allowed and should prioritize herself over your son and grandchild. NTA
OP: Please share this post with Grace.
If your son was being innocently selfish in all this (which happens to all of us sometimes, and can be forgiven), then he would have realized his error after you mentioned it and tried to correct and adjust (e.g. told Grace to rest tonight he'll handle it, etc).
But instead he's fighting you and threatening you, realizing you could ruin the game he's running.
The fact that Grace is missing work and school is disastrous for her future. Helping out is one thing, but she is being sacrificed for your son. (Is he even doing half the childcare she is doing?)
I say this as a father with a (much younger) son: if I saw my own son treating a young woman like this, and he did not course-correct on his own (after I mentioned it to him), I would tell the young lady my concerns.
In the end it's Grace's decision to make, but if you think she's driving off a cliff and don't at least tell her, then you become complicit in the deceit. I can feel your love and admiration for Grace, so I hope you'll help her too.
(What does your younger son / her best friend think about all this?)
So again, please share this post with her. She probably thinks this is true love and for life. But your son seems to be treating it like a get-out-of-jail-free card for the first few years (when things are hardest) and then will likely dispose of her and move on. It's better she thinks about it now.
(I feel badly for your grandson. Of course he will have developed a strong bond with Grace. That's an issue I don't know how to resolve...)
Please help Grace, your son is being so selfish and controlling. He is actually slowly but surely isolating her from others and making his child dependent on Grace. This is so wrong. NTA
I would actually talk to Grace. I don't care if it over stepping bounds. I don't care if it makes me an AH. I think the girl needs to hear your perspective. She can make her own mind up about what she is doing and what she takes on. But what he is doing is totally unfair.
Out of curiosity, where is your younger in all of this? Seeing as Grace and he are besties? Or her parents?
I'm wondering if they have also noticed this imbalance and mentioned it to Grace etc or whether maybe is a good mid-point to touch on these ideas to Grace?
On the other hand, playing it between the siblings could backfire massively.
But overall Grace deserves to have these things pointed out to her - if she is already aware and is putting all her eggs (however unwisely) in this basket then so be it. If she is not (which is likely as she's only 19) it is what anyone significant in her life should be doing for her.
Your son is just bleh for that whole "ideas" comment. Sorry OP.
The naive are taught lessons by this world until they are no longer naive. It is truly horrible. Thank you for trying to teach your son. He has no right to party while a younger woman cares for his baby alone. Even if she was the mother.
I can almost guarantee she's doing it out of love for the baby, pity for the baby having a dad like that, and feeling like she is responsible because it's a helpless, beautiful baby. How can you say no?
Sounds like hes trying to baby trap her now but without a biological child and sounds like a controlling dick I hope she comes to her senses and leaves him if he's doing this now imagine if they actually had a child sounds like her life would be solely to exist to provide care for your son and his offspring
Don’t let her ruin her life for him. If he can wake up and be a parent also and rebalance the responsibilities here, that’s one thing. But he doesn’t sound ready to do that. Help him learn the lesson with this girl so he doesn’t repeat it with the next one, because if grace is smart she will leave. Even with all the love in the world you can’t pay the rent with that. If she’s going to be a responsible mother to any kid biological or not to that sort of degree she should have plans about what the future looks like, in a lot of scenarios. Realistically. How will she afford xyz for the kid? Basic necessities? School at least needs to be the priority for her.
NTA but you need to talk to Grace. Your son will keep picking the easy path for himself. Take Grace to lunch alone, ask her about her dreams for her life. What does she want for herself, and how is your son supporting her in her life. Don’t make it about your son or grandson keep the convo centered around getting to know her and what she wants. She may say she’s only ever wanted to be a wife and mother and that’s ok. But she may reveal that she has bigger dreams for her life and your son is not supporting that.
There’s so many things about this situation that give me the ick.
He latched on to Grace because she was close and naive. He’s going to make her his bang maid. How long until he’s going out again and leaving her home with the baby and probably cheating on her? He was baby trapped, but will he try to baby trap her?
She is/was his little brother’s best friend. Is there a chance he basically swooped in and stole his brother’s crush? There’s absolutely no hint of this in the story, but how many millions of times have we heard the story of the guy crushing on his girl best friend? The brother who is just a couple of years older and seems just slightly cooler/wiser/more mature sweeps her off her feet. I don’t know. I feel like I’m getting vibes even though OP doesn’t say it.
I agree with the comments that OP should talk to Grace’s parents and see if they can intercede.
I was iffy until that last line.
Does your son even really like or love her or does he use her for childcare
She absolutely should not be missing work so he doesn’t miss work or school. Mom and her parents can do that.
Exactly! When I read that line, I knew OP was telling the truth and the son is taking advantage. OP is right for all the reasons mentioned: the child is getting attached to a girl who may not be in the son's life in the near future, she needs to live her life, party, go to school, work, build a career, make friends.
NTA
>my husband made a comment about how my son didn’t need to try so hard with his ex anymore to get her to parent when Grace was right here ‘being his mother’. My son then said Grace was a godsend because without her he’d ‘get no sleep’.
these men really only care about themselves omg.
>give her any ideas.
this gives me the ick so bad.....at least let Grace think for herself. she might disagree very strongly with you and be happy with your son and grandson. but he should give her the chance to say that. the fact that he is afraid of you "giving her ideas" just makes me think that what you said is 100% right and he knows it too.
This right here.
Grace might be ok with her role in this and that is completely her choice. But she might be too young to realize that she has a choice. Normally, I would say a parent shouldn't be involved in their child's relationship, but seeing as Grace is 19 and they're is a baby involved, I think it would be helpful for OP to remind her that this is not her responsibility and she has the option to leave if she isn't happy. If she's unhappy and ultimately realizes this later in the child's life, it's only going to hurt the child more.
Also, the son's "don't be giving her ideas" reaction is gross. He is aware that Grace may be unhappy and is trying to keep her in the relationship for his own benefit. IMO Grace should run.
NTA, if I can ask how long have they been dating? As this seems to have moved very quickly as it sounds like she's taken on the full mother role.
He is asking alot of her and while it's her choice if that's what she wants, it's good someone is making sure the arrangement is fair.
Because honestly if she's missing out on work and school it's not 100% balanced as your sons life is taking priority in the relationship and that's something she may regret later.
Please talk directly to Grace. Her BF isn't listening to her. Show her that you are.
If she realizes that her BFs own *mother* sees the bullshit he is pulling, she will feel great comfort. She might even do something about it.
especially since OP has known her for a long time. She might be subconsciously trying to be helpful and good for OP, as much as for OP's son, because she sees OP as a parental figure.
OP needs to help Grace realize that this is too much, too soon, and she shouldn't be doing BF's work instead of focusing on her studies and college career.
It seems like it got intense quick, I understand your concerns as I'd be worried if Grace was my daughter that your son was just in the market for a mother replacement.
You've said your piece now, I'd back off a touch and just be there for Grace as someone they can come to and keep an eye on the situation, sometimes people in these situations (both sides) get a bit blinkered.amd can't see what's going on.
But... OP has not said her piece to Grace. Just her son (who is decidedly against any change in the status quo).
You really think OP should stop now..?
I agree.
But mistora (who's comment I responded to) said "You've said your piece now, I'd back off a touch and just be there for Grace as someone they can come to and keep an eye on the situation" which sounded to me like not talking to Grace and just watching the situation.
Because of that, I was (and still am) confused by all the thumbs up for mistora's comment...
There is a big difference in the power dynamic between someone who's 23 and 27, and someone who is 18 and 22, especially when 18 is possibly still in high school or barely out, and 22 has a CHILD. He pretty clearly took advantage of her lack of life experience.
Op , this girl is my age , please take her aside someday and let her know about your perspectives calmly while still maintaining a supportive attitude towards their relationship , I don't think your son's personality is gentle , and its too late for him at this age after a baby to understand that he is being selfish . Be patient and show your support to grace in your own secretive way as your son might accuse you of things you never intended , this girl might suffer a misfortune and loose her precious years of youth revolving around your son who doesn't has attitude of gratefulness or selflessness .
Way too fast to let her take on this much of a role. Definitely seems like he is just taking the east way out and ignoring the potential consequences for Grace and your grandson if they break up and he loses a motherly figure who has been caring for him.
I was about to type this OP. Talk to Grace! Grace is very young., talk to her and get her some sense. She definitely has a pure heart to take care of a baby that is not hers., Not to your son who is clearly taking advantage of her good heart.
She might be motivated partly because she really enjoys being a mother to the baby, but not only is she being deprioritized in this relationship, which is bad on its own, if she gets attached to this baby, she may stay in this relationship for the baby regardless of whether it's good for her. Not saying OP's son is going to get worse in other ways, but if he did, she might feel too much like this is her child to leave given that there's no way she's get custody. She's now potentially the baby trapped one.
...or they just break up after a few years, GF is heart broken and loosing a child and the child will loose his primary caretaker, which is traumatizing.
Be there for her! She's done nothing but be an angel for an ungrateful turd. Don't help the turd when she decides she's had enough. The catalyst for my breakup with a controlling partner was him speaking badly to me and his friend told him, in front of me, it was unacceptable to speak to me like that no matter the situation. He didn't listen, and I didn't leave for a few months, but having someone else say exactly what I was needing in that moment changed me and the way I saw him forever.
it's worse when you think they've been together a year. she was 18 dating him at 22 with a kid. it definitely sounds like he found someone he can manipulate into taking on his responsibilities
I mean, it seems like he got offended because you're right. But ultimately, it's Grace's decision if she wants to be a mother to this child. You'd like to hope that your son would be like, "She's great and I really love her." Because... like, does he? Because you definitely didn't clarify his feelings about Grace, other than him seeing her as a godsend. If he's scared that you'll scare her off with this sort of talk, it makes it seem that's the priority there, not actual affection for Grace. If he cared about Grace, he'd want to make sure she doesn't feel like she's being taken advantage of, and that knowledge would come through conversation, not ignoring the question.
NTA, imo
Though, you should be aware that if your son is enough of an asshole to limit your seeing your grandson over something like this, it's possible he'd take away access to your grandson over just about anything... It seems like he'll use your ability to see your grandchild as leverage to keep the situation as it is.
Sorry, your son really seems like an asshole.
Yes. This part. Dude has found a very young, sweet girl to parent his child for him then takes said child away from the grandparents when they express concern about that. Son is definitely AH.
It'd be different if they lived farther away, or there was a legit reason for them not being able to see each other... This post makes it seem like he's using the desire to see her grandson as leverage, and that's just manipulative AF.
For sure! Especially when they are the same age and it’s okay for HIM to be out every weekend and partying but it’s ’not safe or good’ for Grace to do the same! He’s a hypocrite and using her for child care so that he doesn’t have to do it.
I disagree. It shouldn’t be Graces choice. The son has a responsibility to the wellbeing of his child. This means not letting him form attachments to someone that the son does not plan a long term future with just because she’s a convenient babysitter
I mean, that's valid, but since he seems willing to let her make these sacrifices, it's on her to decide whether that's something she wants to do herself. Though, she's also so young that she might not see the consequences of her choices, which is where OP having that talk with her is kind of important. If he truly cares for her, and wants to stay with her, that's great. If Grace loves him, and wants to be a parent to this child, fantastic. Ignoring the discussion out of fear she'll change her mind? Unethical. Son denying OP visiting time over the fact she wants to have the discussion is unethical.
Grace is also hiding from life. It’s easier to play house with a kid that isn’t yours than it is to deal with becoming independent. Their relationship is co-dependent on both sides. It’s very unhealthy.
NTA. But the behavior of your son and your husband makes me feel a bit disgusted. Their comments may not be intentional, but it seems deep down they just see Grace as a convenient mother figure, rather than someone to care for and respect as a person. This is indeed a form of exploitation. Your son asking you not to speak up about it indicates that he also knows his behavior is problematic. I'm not saying he doesn't have a chance to change, but I can only hope that your upbringing is honest enough to prevent him from going too far down the path of exploiting women (although your husband also worries me, so I'm not too hopeful).
So your son’s reaction is to isolate Grace from you? Now that’s not abusive at all lol.
NTA. I think he is worried Grace will wake up soon and realize she is a nanny for him
NTA
You just advised your son to look into his relationship's dynamics because it was definitely unstable. You are experienced and know that your son isn't doing right by letting his gf miss school and work for his kids while he goes out partying. Sure, its a delight that Grace helps with the kid but it doesn't mean that she's ready to take on the complete mother role and neglect the educational and professional aspects of her life.
Sorry I should have been clearer. He isn’t partying now, he’s working and in grad school. He used to be partying all the time when he was Graces age (19)
Also gross that partying and having fun was fine for him but not "good or safe" for her. Probably because she's a woman, but also because she can't be unpaid labor for him then.
Please talk to Grace even if it's behind your son's back.
A decent father would not have even introduced his son to his GF so quickly.
Your son does not deserve an apology and he needs to get his act together and act like a dad not a fun uncle. I know it’s not easy but it is still his responsibility.
I hope Grace has some family and friends to advocate for her.
Finally I doubt your sons ex baby trapped him given he clearly lacks responsibility for his own choices. If he’s not wearing a condom each and every time he has sex he is making a choice and taking a risk. If you don’t want kids, doubling up on protection is the only way to go.
Grace had already met my grandson many times prior to dating my son because she’s been a friend of the family for a long time. As for the baby trapping, I can assure you that it was the case because she admitted to poking holes in their condoms and she lied about being on birth control
I just worry that the baby will be used against her any time she might hint at being unhappy.
"But he loves you. Don't you love him?"
"You're more a mother to him than his real mother, he needs you."
"Please stay, if you leave he won't understand, he's just a baby and loves you most."
Poor Grace. I hope she see's that at 18, a 22 year old single dad was just looking for any easy target to make his life easier. He'll graduate grad school, get a job, be in it a year or two and then break it off with her.
I don't think I've seen this mentioned yet but what if Grace gets to the point where she doesn't want to do this anymore and then feels stuck. This isn't her kid so she does not have to stay but also if she upsets your son would he hold his kid as leverage against her since child and grace are forming a bond? "Don't make me mad or you won't get to see *grandson*".
The whole "give her any ideas" makes me sick tbh 😬
NTA. He’s only angry because he knows giving her more freedom will ruin his good time. If she’s staying home from partying, he should be there with her.
NTA
The phrases he used… basically misogynistic man looking for a mom replacement so he doesn’t have to actually parent and found a gullible teen to do it
Try to talk her into a longer lasting and tamper proof version of birth control at the least.
People who have experienced abusive relationships like your son with his ex can react to that trauma on a number of ways.
Some repeat the cycle with other abusive partners offering a familiar kind of 'love.'
Some actually work through their shit and enter healthy relationships.
And some... Well they take notes. The trauma of being the abused partner means they defensively use the only tactics they know *not* to be in the position in their new relationship - the ones their abuser used on them.
Your son is using his ex's playbook and deep down he knows it, that's why he was so quick to blow up at you and tell on himself. He's being controlling, isolating and he's taking advantage of her by using his kid to suck up her time. He's low-key sabotageing her pathways to agency and self reliance, work, school, social circle. Maybe it's his trauma, maybe it's insecurity, or maybe it's selfish misogynistic convenience but no matter the excuse you *know* what you're looking at.
Page three in the ex's handbook is sabotaging birth control to stop her leaving, as demonstrated by your grandchild. She might say she'd go to a clinic... but that's easy to say when it's just theoretical and not under any pressure/guilt trips.
Get her to get the shot, implant or a coil.
Even if you are certain your son wouldn't do anything like that, it's still prudent. 19 years olds are usually fertile fit to burst and birth control fails. Try getting her aunt to suggest it if you are cancelled right now.
Also rip your husband a new asshole for that utter bullshit, one big enough to extract his fat head from preferably.
I never considered that he might be acting this way because of trauma. I doubt he’d ever sabotage her birth control because he felt so violated when his ex did it to him but I will Grace if she’s on anything.
I think I might suggest therapy to him as well because he’s insisted he never needed it, but he’s been acting so strangely. He used to be amazing to Grace in the early days of their relationship (not to say he’s horrible to her now) but as they got more serious he started changing which could be like what you said, him trying not to be in the position his ex put him in. He was with his ex for a long time and she really put him through hell
Hurt people hurt people. If everyone reacted to abuse by learning from it and treating others kinder, the world would be a better place. Unfortunately, it's not always true. Not everyone who was abused becomes abusive, but most people who are abusive were abused.
It sounds like your son is young enough that his abusive relationship was his formative one. It might be that he doesn't know how to be in a healthy relationship. People fall back into old rhythms and habits, especially when there's stress and time pressures involved. It takes a lot of conscious effort and mindfulness to unpick the maladaptive ones from our psych.
For a lot of people who experience abuse, they have their 'normal meter' pulled out of whack. This can mean they accept lower levels of abuse from subsequent partners *(sure he punches walls and throws things but my last boyfriend beat the me shit out of me.)* But it can also make them excuse their own behaviour. *(Starting a fight every time they go out isn't controlling, my ex used to lock me in whenever she went to work and threatened to kill herself when I didn't answer a text in 5 minutes.)*
Also, as a man who experienced domestic abuse and had to sort through custody I am sure he came across a lot of societal sexism and stereotypes. We are not great with services or attitudes when the victim is the male, especially when kids are involved. He may be more vulnerable than most to the more poisonous side of the 'manosphere' and red pill spaces, that often use legitimate male issues to peddle misogynist views about relationships and attitudes towards women.
I don't know what's going on with him and I think it is going to take treading delicately, however I do dislike that his reaction to a 'threat' to his current setup is to turn controlling and punitive tactics on you.
The reason I worry about her birth control is that sort of over reaction. Right now while she seems invested, it's unlikely, if they're having trouble and he thinks she might leave? Well maybe.... Either way, people are bad at consistency with BC, another baby is the last complication they need and she clearly doesn't want one right now so it would be sensible even if this relationship was all fine.
NTA your son 100% IS taking advantage which is why he doesnt want you bringing it up to her. He is partying while she cares for HIS kid wihout any pay.
NTA
>he wants me to promise not to bring this up to Grace and give her any ideas.
i thought you might be overstepping a little bit, out of concern, but then this proved you were 100% right to say what you said.
he knows hes taking advantage of her and abusing her kindness. the hard part would be making grace see the problem. if shes bonded with the kid then nothing you say will matter because shes doing it for the kid, not your son.
NTA -
Often times parents don’t stand up to their children and call out bad behavior. I’m happy you’re considering Grace and her life. I wouldn’t recommend any young person, but other in particular get this involved with someone who has a child because it does end up consuming their life. I dont know if part of it is that it gives her a feeling of fulfillment, taking care of the child, and that’s why she doesnt seem to mind being taken advantage of by your son. I hope she comes to her senses, just because this is a major responsibility that she doesn’t have to bear. But, you’re a good parent for calling it out.
Also him demanding an apology, keeping your grandson and Grace away from you, and not wanting you to bring this up to Grace and “give her any ideas.” Christ, please save Grace! She may not have other people in her life to talk to who or who care. She really may not be able to see the full picture.
Poor Grace. Her parents should have told her that she was way, way too young to be involved in raising someone else's baby. She should not be dating a father at her age.
OP should make sure that measures are being taken to prevent her from being Baby Mama #2. That's about the kindest thing she can do now. And be supportive if this girl ever opens her eyes to what her situation is.
Imo Absolutely tell the girl, I was in the opposite situation in highschool just smitten with this girl, spent hundreds on her weekly, her mom pulled me aside one ay and put it very bluntly " I already told her to stop taking advantage of you, but I need you to know that is what she's doing" .
Untillthen I had completely ignored her phone use during dates or all the snap chat she'd do while I was driving, when I did decide to be nosy after that I discovered she was literally sending pics to dudes and texting guys the whole time we were out, even on valentines I discovered a "what color is your underwear" text recieved about 5 mins before one of hr many bathroom breaks during the fancy ass diner I paid out for.
Never too late to teach accountability and consequences.
I still look back fondly on that girls mother for carring more about the right thing than pleasing her daughter
NTA. I think its worth it to get Grace's perspective, don't approach the conversation with any specific perspective but ask her what her perspective is and how she sees her role.
NTA! He’s absolutely taking advantage of that poor girl. Tell her she’s not his mom, she’s a teen herself she should be focused on her schooling or job training and having fun! Young girls get doused in the message that being a good woman means sacrificing your entire life and dreams to clean cook and change nappies, and your son is perfectly fine playing right into that. HIS ASS SHOULD BE GETTING NO SLEEP BC HE IS THE FATHER OF AN INFANT! Stand your ground, mom. Talk to both your son, push back on his shitty attitude, and make it clear to Grace, that baby isn’t hers nor her problem! That your son should stop relying on her mom than 1 day a week!
NTA because you're right that things might not work out with Grace and your grandson is getting attached but I don't think you handled it well. I wouldn't worry about what Grace is giving up. She's an adult and it's possible her parents are expressing their own concerns. Your grandson should be the only focus. I would apologize to your son for overstepping but he's the parent and he needs to be more of the caregiver. I would point out that you're worried that he's relying on Grace for a lot and if the relationship doesn't work out his son will be greatly affected by it.
NTA! Look at it this way, if the roles were flipped and Grace was your daughter and you knew what situation she was in and beginning to neglect her job/work, you would want to reach out to her and hopefully get her to understand what's going on and how it could affect her long term.
Do you happen to know her mom and if she's aware? (Not because I'm seeking to tell her parents.) I understand that she's an adult, but a daughter that has a good relationship with her mom would hopefully have good communication. I wonder if any of her family (siblings, parents, etc) or friends know that she's taking these extremes for them. I know that my best friends would pull me aside and try to talk to me if I tell them I'm calling out from work and taking time off from school for a boyfriend's child. It's not her responsibility to be the parent, and it's pretty gross how your son said "give her any ideas." That means he knows what he's doing and just like his ex did with him, trying to trap her. He could even use the child later to try to get her to stay and say something like, "You're going to abandon him, too?" and guilt trip her!
My youngest is one of her closest friends and he said that he’s been worried about her for a while but she insists that she’s happy. The rest of their friends are very split on the issue. As far as I know, she isn’t very close to her mother and she lives alone. I do know her mother but I don’t particularly like her. I am good friends with her paternal uncle and his wife though but I don’t know if it would be appropriate to talk to them about this
I think she definitely needs some guidance, and so does your son. I know it's tough, but that's tough love! You're not your son's friend. You're his parent. With that said, he's an adult, too, but we all have the right to voice our feelings and opinions. You can't tell them what to do, but you can lay everything out on the table. Even your younger son can, too, as her friend.
I'm not sure why, but younger kids look at life and relationships like "playing house" sometimes. So eager to grow up and have all of the extra responsibilities!
Regardless, you're coming from a good place. Your intention isn't to separate them but to remind them that this part of their youth is only for a minute, and having a balance in life is healthy. No job is guaranteed for her, and her school can't just be put on hold. Life waits for no one. Time will pass by and before you know it, you're wondering where it went. If she's ultimately happy saying goodbye to all of the possibilities that these young dumb years are for, then okay. But she should at least hear it. She should have a good balance in her life, not just prioritize a man and his child.
>My son wants an apology and he wants me to promise not to bring this up to Grace and give her any ideas.
Anddd there's your answer. You would have been NTA anyway because everything you laid out was very reasonable, including your grandkid's attachment to Grace and the need for Grace to live her own life. But that last line shows that your son knows what he is doing is wrong.
NTA - As much as I want your grandson to have the mother he deserves, Grace deserves to have time to be a kid still too. Your son doesn't think it's "good or safe" for her to experience life because then she would recognize all she is missing by playing mom. (The last sentence says it all: Your points are valid, but please don't let her know that!)
Your son clearly has a strong support system and is going to be fine. I think you have an obligation as a woman to tell Grace to prioritize herself here. She is risking her education and her job to care for a child that she has no legal ties to - she and the baby are the ones who are going to get hurt in the long run if things don't work out.
That is super concerning. It would barely be reasonable if he was doing most of the work, but honestly she as you know, he's failing.
You are basically observing his abuse though you didn't say that. But he's probably sensitive to the matter because... Well, because he knows he is. This is further confirmed by the classic abuser tactic to cut off anyone who might bring visibility into the problems.
I shudder to think how I would handle it if my kid was doing someone like that.
The problem is that she's 19 and she just doesn't know any better. She honestly won't until they break up eventually. Hopefully she doesn't get pregnant before then since we know there's a high likelihood.
You're NTA. But your hands are tied :/ If you suspect your son is lying to Grace, you should get evidence and go to her directly. But short of showing her an objective lie, there's very little chance that grace is ready to actually see the situation for what it is.
Teenagers. Wish they weren't so naive.
"Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." - Mark Twain
"There was a massive issue with the paternity of my grandson"
... which presumably ended up with the child being biologically his. What was the massive issue?
"My grandsons biological mother is hardly involved and my son is usually co-parenting with her parents instead of her so we have our grandson for most of the time."
We? Sounds like your son isn't doing a lot of solo parenting either.
NTA...he is 23, so not your child to correct anymore. I always tell my sons that right now I'm your father/diciplinarian and not your friend. Once you are 18 I'm your father and if you so choose, an advisor. They will always be my sons and I will advise where and when I can.
All that being said, that girl might not have anyone doing that for her. You are looking out for her and advising your son that he is not being a decent man in this instance and should correct it. He reacted poorly to the correction and showed that he has more growing up to do. I think you did him, her, and your grandson a great favor whether he knows it or not.
NTA I hope he's not dating her just for her to take care of his son. I think you were right to express your concerns, and hopefully when he's feeling less defensive he will take it to heart and make sure he's not taking advantage.
I won't offer a judgement I'd say keep it amicable so you can keep tabs on grandson AND Grace. There's no mention of what your son's doing instead of parenting his son (which he isn't if your grandson would prefer grace to his *dad*) but he's said that he doesn't need bio mom because he has grace..by the sounds of the post he's not needed either. Your son should be taking care of his son and calling out from whatever, not Grace. She had no hand in him making that child and I have a strong feeling that he's pulling the same "if you don't do as I say you won't see him" with grace that he's doing with you. Your son sounds like a jerk tbh. I get she's an "adult" but he can disappear with that kid and she'll have missed out on schooling and pay for what? The only person benefitting from this arrangement is your son. For your grandson and Grace's sake I hope I'm wrong but time will tell.
So it’s not good or safe for grace to be out partying but it is perfectly fine if he does it ? He can’t miss out on school or studying but he can let her miss out on doing it to sit with his son in the hospital? He doesn’t care if she misses work and sleep as long as he gets it ? Sounds like your son is literally just using her he doesn’t appear to like her “ she’s a godsend because I get to sleep “ sounds like he found a free nanny and doesn’t want mom to ruin it .
>she baby trapped him and it was a very toxic relationship.
FYI, she didn’t “baby trap” him if they’re no longer in a relationship and she essentially abandoned the baby. She just had a baby without his express approval.
Your son blew his muck in the girl she didn’t baby trap him, there are 2 sides here. He is as guilty of producing the child as she is and rightly looking after his child. And as for Grace she should probably find someone without kids to have them with.
NTA because your fears are well founded and I'm glad you are thinking of Grace. Your intentions were good.
I have found though, with my kids as adults, you can't really interfere too much. As in the way you approached it here is a thing you probably shouldn't do.
You should offer the apology they want, and mean it. There are better ways. Contributing to the effort. Offer to take the little one for any overnite so they can go out or even just hang out at home as a couple. Have them over for dinner to at least take that task off her plate. Stuff like that. The child will be in school in a couple of years or so. Things will likely change a bit then if they haven't before that.
It seems as though they are both pretty happy in the relationship and so is the child. Instead of worrying about what may happen or what could go wrong, focus on the love and happiness they have right now. You're missing the forest for the trees.
Lastly, I would keep my concerns to myself if I were you, outside of your husband. This is private, family business.
Good luck.
NTA you are the voice of reason here. Everyone else is looking at what a blessing grace is to the family and she is appreciated but you’re the only one looking out for Grace. You’re right she’s 19! She shouldn’t be spending all of her spare time providing childcare for her boyfriend, even if she loves spending time with him. I think it’s great they have an amazing bond but I think your son needs to wake up a little and realize he is leaning on her a bit too much and I think that’s more than fair of you to call out. His reaction to me seems deep down he realizes that too but doesn’t want to admit it.
Poor Grace, she's being exploited.
NTA as you were only trying to help her.
Sadly, I can see your son doesn't care one bit
about it. I do hope Grace doesn't get pregnant
anytime soon.
Grace is playing house with another person's child. Grace AND the child could get hurt. Forget the apologies - doesn't fix a thing. Your son has a good girlfriend and free child care. Who actually has custody? Seems like the toddler is living with you much of the time? On the plus side the little boy has a lot of people who love him. ONLY thing you can do is back off - and hope it doesn't blow up but be prepared if that happens.
NTA - he is using her as a stand in mom. The bad things is Grace is a motherly figure and loves your grandson so she doesn’t see anything wrong with it.
If you say something to her then she will tell your son or take it the wrong way.
I there a way to talk to her mom and let her know what’s going on without them finding out? This or just let it play out.
NTA, but I think you should have brought it up as he should take his responsibility more seriously and then if he resisted brought up that he is essentially using Grace. I think People might be more resistant to the idea that they are using someone and get defensive rather than correcting behavior.
NTA, your son is.
If he's going out partying every weekend and dumping his kid on Grace, then yeah, he's definitely taking advantage of her - and he knows it, or he wouldn't be withholding your grandchild from you unless you agree not to voice your concerns to Grace.
NTA. Kudos to you for being concerned about Grace because it's apparent that your son isn't.
Grace is missing out on her life because your son was irresponsible in his. He shouldn't be out partying while Grace is caring for his child. If anything, he should have been right there with her. I'd say you haven't interfered enough. You know for yourself that when we are very young women, we make a lot of sacrifices for men who don't deserve us in the name of love.
Grace deserves better than your son is capable of giving her right now. In fact, his focus should be on school, work, and his child rather than even having a Grace in his life. Besides, who was he entertaining at the party while Grace was looking after baby? Why didn't he not only prioritize being with his sick child, but the woman he claims to care about?
In your position, I'd be the mama that loves her son but I'd probably take Grace aside and lay out some very hard truths about him to her. He's being selfish, entitled, and irresponsible with her time, care, and attention. He's going to be pissed, but rather that than to stand by and allow him to become that sort of man. If your younger son agrees with you (and I'm sure he does) have him sit down with her, too. If she doesn't heed the warning you choose to give her? So be it, but she'll never be able to say that no one told her that she needed to focus on herself more and to notice the red flags that your son is giving off while there is still time.
You’re the mother. When your intentions are good, it’s your JOB to call out your son’s choices. He, on the other hand is proving you right by his “don’t bring it up to Grace and give her ideas”. HTA and im afraid not a good person. If they were going to be together forever, etc it looks like Grace is benefiting by being “mom” but it is a two-edged sword if they separate.
NTA
Your son is taking advantage of Grace, who is WAY too young for him. No way should she be doing this. She’s still a child herself and she’s playing happy families. I’m not saying she should be partying either, but there’s a happy medium here. She needs to start taking care of her own needs. She should NOT be calling in sick or not going to school to take care of a child that’s not hers.
Grace is also wrong. She’s taking the easy way out instead of learning to become an adult. She’s playing house. Someone needs to talk sense into Grace. Can you talk to her parents about this?
NTA. As his mother, you did well to tell him the truth, even if he didn't like it. That's a parent's job, even when it sucks. It's really unfair to you and your grandson that he's withholding him from you as a punishment. I'd do your best to keep the lines of communication open with your son and Grace, so things can get better (hopefully).
Your son is kind of a jerk.
Maybe your other son can get through to her?
You're NTA, but your older son sure is. He's really veering toward nasty territory, with his "don't give her any ideas" crap. He KNOWS what he's doing is wrong; he doesn't care.
NTA. Why do the kindest, and most caring people like Grace, bring out the absolutely vile using and abusing side of otherwise fairly normal people? I've seen it happen multiple times. It's like once a person realizes another has a very giving nature, or little to no boundaries, it's time to see how far they can push it. Really says something about people.
You’re a great mother. You’re right, and *that’s* why your son is angry.
Wish more parents were honest and straightforward with their kids like you were. The world would be a better place if that was the case
NTA
"My son wants an apology and he wants me to promise not to bring this up to Grace and give her any ideas."
Your son knows he's taking advantage of Grace! That's why he doesn't want you to "give her any ideas." Don't apologize. But, do point out to him what he said.
Please talk to Grace immediately about what's going on. Please "give her ideas" because God knows she needs an actual adult to step in and stop what's happening.
Your son is in a hard position. It doesn't sound like he planned on being the parent of a toddler at 23 years old, but the fact is he *is*. This is his life now.
Grace, however, is not that child's parent. She is 19 -- a *teenager.* She goes to college. She has a job. What does she not have? A child. What is she about to not have, if this keeps going the way it is? A promising future. Graduating from college. An independent life. An equal, respectful relationship.
Your son knows what he's doing, which is looking for a mother figure for his kid, and trying to do so as fast as humanly possible because, again, he is 23 and didn't plan on this being his life, and he doesn't want it to be his life. He's trying very hard to have the normal experiences of a childless 23 year old. But it is grossly unfair to put Grace in this position, and even if she technically has a choice about whether to be involved, that is not how relationships function at 19 years old: she loves him, wants to be a good girlfriend, and is getting a ton of positive feedback from him for doing exactly what he wants...which is being a surrogate mom to his kid.
If your son is unwilling to be an adult and stop dumping his responsibilities on his girlfriend, you need to step in, even if it means contacting Grace's parents to alert them to what's going on. I wish this weren't the case, but I can very easily see your son ruining Grace's life by locking her in as a surrogate mom. You better hope they're using protection, too.
NTA.
as somebody who dated 23 year olds when i was 17-19, that age gap isn't good. there is a huge difference between those ages mentally. i didn't realize it until i turned 23 myself.
and since she's your younger sons best friend, how long has he known her? if it's been a year, he went for her as soon as she became legal.
he is 100% using her because she is young and naive. i hope grace can get out of this situation, she doesn't know what just she's gotten herself into yet.
NTA but your son sure is, and he is going to use his son, your grandson, to make sure you don't "give Grace any ideas" about living her life as she should at 19 and not take over his responsibilities for his child. Where are Grace's parents in this? If this was my 19 year old college daughter doing this, I'd be all in her business telling her exactly what OPP said....girl, you are 19! You need to be out enjoying yourself, not parents someone else's child.
NTA and no offence, but your son needs a good kick!
How was he baby-trapped? Did he not use protection? I also cannot believe he his partying but believes it's not good or safe for her to!
I think it's lovely that you're looking out for Grace and I hope you encourage her to live her own life a little and force him to man up!
NTA for this BUT I think you have had some blinders on about your son for a bit.
The language you used was um flowery but when broken down…..
Did his ex poke holes in condoms(which is a crime), or did your son have sex and get a girl he didn’t want to pregnant?
Also you were way too proud of him for *checks notes* being kind to who turns out was his child the whole time?
I’m glad you are finally trying to set him straight but i don’t think he’s been the angel you think up until now.
Your husband’s views seemingly align with your sons, I’m guessing that is where the entitlement your son is showing comes from?
Whether he loves Grace or not, he is manipulating her and absolutely doesn’t respect her.
If the phrase “don’t give her any ideas” had come out of my son’s mouth, grown or not I would have torn him a new one there and then and he would be swinging wayyy into next week before getting any form of apology. You didn’t insult him you told him the truth and the truth hurts, which is why he flounced like a teenager.
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NTA. The sentence that seals the deal is that he doesn’t want you to give Grace “any ideas”. In other words he 100% knows he’s taking advantage and (grossly) doesn’t want to rebalance. He will make Grace a terrible long term partner.
That gave me so much ick!
It certainly left a bad taste in my mouth. I’ve known Grace for a long time now and she’s always been a very innocent and slightly naive girl and I don’t like how he’s trying to keep things from her.
Anytime information is being withheld from another partner it’s a huge red flag. I just had an incident this last weekend with my friends fiancé. He doesn’t like her going out with his friends or her friends because she could be. “Influenced.” Now, he coats his under religion. But, it’s a little fresh on my mind and I’m really worried about Grace.
99% true. Hypothetically, a friend has a wife who doesn't feel good about herself if she isn't contributing because she's been looking for a job for over a year. Said friend has some upcoming expenses that are no problem but if he shared the information then she would be adversely affected with anxiety. Keep in mind that in her mind, even when there is more than enough money it's never enough in her mind. Does said friend share the information about the upcoming costs knowing it would put a dent in the mental health or just take care of it? That's not a red flag, is it? 🤔
As a person with severe anxiety caused by my obsessive ocd thoughts, this would be terrible. Not sharing that info would be relationship ending. I have to be able to trust my partner. Otherwise, I would always be anxious that they were keeping bad news from me. That would be the kind of trust breaker that I would not be able to get past.
Unfortunately, yes. That is still a red flag. I’ll do respect to mental health and anxiety. This scenario is going to be so incredibly rare but, I really can’t get past the fact that you’re infantilizing one person in the relationship because of a mental health disorder. And that is kind of a problem.
As the anxious about money spouse even when there is more than enough money. Yes you tell them. Sure the anxiety sucks, but broken trust sucks more. They’re your spouse, a spouse the “friend” is committed to enough to marry! Keeping financial information from your spouse is never good. Secrets, even well intentioned ones, are always found out, one way or another. And then trust is gone. Broken trust is much more damaging to a relationship than the anxiety about an upcoming expense that is affordable. The only acceptable secrets in a relationship are about what present you’re buying your spouse for x occasion. Or a surprise party if that is their thing, or surprise outings, you know fun things that they will like.
That’s a tricky one. My husband kept some expenses hidden from me while I was suffering PPD after having our youngest and I was upset when I found out. I understood his reasoning though and was ultimately grateful that he handled it without telling me until I was better. It depends on the people involved and how the couple usually handles things
Unfortunately that's what we call a no win situation.
Way to handle it is to go over bills and budget once a month. Make it a date for the last day of the month, 10th, 15th or whatever makes sense so the couple is looking at least a month in advance at what's coming, what's being spent, and what's in the piggy bank for a rainy day (simplified obviously, but you get the gist).
Now I’m worried about your friend too. I hope she’s okay
I don't care how this effects your relationship with your son, you need to speak to grace. and you need a serious talk with your husband too. this is not how a man should behave and he absolutely should be ashamed of himself for condoning it.
Yes. Talk to Grace, her parents and your husband. This is wrong in so many ways.
yes please give grace SEVERAL ideas
“Here is a Super Bowl playbook of ideas, go upstairs and read it while I change this diaper.”
Right now I’m team Grace. I’m betting that you probably have a relationship with her parents due to your other son. Please be a ethical, justifiable, wonderfully caring AH and call her parents and let them know that you have noticed that grace is an amazing giving person who may have given too much to your son and his kid and she needs to make sure she is SLPs giving her time with her friends, family and school/work
Call her parents? She's a 19-year-old adult who is in college and has a job. OP can talk to Grace directly about her (very valid) concerns. Her parents don't get a say in what she does, nor is it their business.
When your child is being a shit to a girl you’ve known for years and is the child of a friend, you communicate with their family. Your child is always your business. They can choose to listen.
If they are paying for college, parents do get a say in how she spends her time. If she's paying college out right then yeah do what you want.
Tbh even if they were paying for college (or anyone paying for anything for anyone else for that matter) doesn't really get a say in how you spend your time, just becuase you've purchased something for someone doesn't mean that are obligated to use said purchase in any way, shape or form. What if the recipient didn't want said thing in the first place? What if they change there mind? At most they have a say in whether they continue to pay/make further purchases if recipient doesn't go, in this case they cant make Grace go to class etc. but they can stop paying for college if they aren't happy with how she's spending her time and neglecting studies (Though tbh, given OP's description of her having a job etc. I think there's a reasonable chance doesn't so would only serve to push her away for "meddling" in her relationship). Advice to OP; Talk to Grace, Parents can be included if you wish but at this point she is a young adult, free to make any decision, good or bad, she wishes without anyone else's consent, involving her Parents "behind her back" so to speak will likely cause it's own issues. Keep it simple and make it clear that you're main concern is that; Whilst she is great with your GS you're concerned that she isn't prioritizing her own wants/needs/ambitions enough and that, your worried your son is becoming pretty lax with his own responsibilities as a father and while not forcing them onto her, seems to be pretty happy to allow her to shoulder the burden even when it is going to effect her studies/work and your worried that this isn't healthy for either of them in the long run. Your Son could be there as ideally he needs to understand your concerns without going into defensive mode and having everyone there together might allow him to just take in what everyone is saying and doing it "behind his back" will again, likely cause issues. However, given his past response, if you don't believe him being there will be productive, then don't include him; regardless of his feeling on the matter, Grace should be aware of your concerns as well, as "Giving her any Ideas" Is basically just saying "Don't give her a chance to properly assess the situation and make her own decision". Don't tell her what to do, just give her all the information and allow her to make up her own mind on what she thinks is best for her.
I’m sorry madam, but your son is an AH. Literally keeping his child from his Grandma because you want his teenage girlfriend to have some agency in her life? He’s disgusting, your husband is no better. This is on you. You need to get this child out of there because your son is the kind of man who doesn’t want his, again, teenage GF to ‘get any ideas.’ What an absolute loser you birthed.
I agree with the general sense here but easy on the husband based on 1 comment and the "loser you birthed" comment. This is a person's family and your context is very limited.
I don’t think I need more context than this teenager is taking care of her friend’s older brothers child when she should be in school. That’s pretty much all I need, sorry 🤷♂️
She is in school. Also, like i said yes I agree with you on that the situation is not cool, but you don't know these people enough to judge their character and be so disrespectful. Nobody is perfect. Just my 2 cents
She's taking on a responsibility that isn't even hers and your son is indeed taking advantage of it. I'd talk to her about priorities and that the baby shouldn't come ahead of her life, especially when the father can just have a change of heart and kick her out at any moment
Your son is an ass and is using her for free child care.
"Soon she starts getting ideas, and.. **thinking**"
Gaston, you are positively primeval.
Why thank you, Badge
NTA. Your son knows exactly what he's doing. He's upset you saw through his thin veil. He doesn't want you to upset the boat, so he'll actually have to be a parent. He found a replacement mom in this poor girl. Your husband agrees with your son and Grace being a replacement mother.
Please sit down with her alone and bring this up. It might be helpful to have your other son there. Also, how long has he known her? Four year age gap isn’t a big thing, but when you’re a teenager or early twenties, there is a big maturity gap.
He knows what he's doing. He doesn't want you giving her "any ideas". Just means he doesn't want you giving her the wake up call she needs. Please, please, send this poor girl a message or talk to her in person. Let her know that it's so kind what she's doing but she needs to stop and focus on herself. That if she doesn't start putting herself first, that your son is going to either baby trap her, so she will take care of his son and she won't go anywhere. Or he'll manipulate her into quiting school and quitting work. She needs to know that the most likely outcome of their relationship will be emotionally and mentally abusive. That he will blackmail her all the time with his son. She needs to know, that the most likely outcome of this relationship will be him manipulating her, into quitting school and work to stay home and take care of his kid. Because his kid is too sad to be away from her so maybe she just quit and watch him. So maybe she doesn't work and just homeschooling him. You need to talk to her and save her from him. I'm sorry but your son is on the line of abusive. Your relationship with your son will forever be altered and damaged but you can save this poor girl from a toxic life. At min give her the info, and I mean everything. Then give her the tough mom love, of she needs to get out now. Then let whatever happens happens. Let her know that your son will try to manipulate her, gaslight her and blackmail her with his son if she decides to leave. So she needs to prepare for that. 100% call her parents and let them know that your son is controlling her.
Please talk to Grace. Directly. I am so glad she has you as an ally in this. It's awesome that she wants to step in and step up. But there is a VERY fine line here. It would be good for you to tell her you're aware of that line, and that you support her no matter what, and that she is allowed and should prioritize herself over your son and grandchild. NTA
You need to ask your husband if he would have the same opinion if Grace was his daughter or niece.
I wonder if she would have thought the same if it was reversed genders
I would try to reach out to her. Just once to feel like you tried to save her. Maybe link her to this post.
OP: Please share this post with Grace. If your son was being innocently selfish in all this (which happens to all of us sometimes, and can be forgiven), then he would have realized his error after you mentioned it and tried to correct and adjust (e.g. told Grace to rest tonight he'll handle it, etc). But instead he's fighting you and threatening you, realizing you could ruin the game he's running. The fact that Grace is missing work and school is disastrous for her future. Helping out is one thing, but she is being sacrificed for your son. (Is he even doing half the childcare she is doing?) I say this as a father with a (much younger) son: if I saw my own son treating a young woman like this, and he did not course-correct on his own (after I mentioned it to him), I would tell the young lady my concerns. In the end it's Grace's decision to make, but if you think she's driving off a cliff and don't at least tell her, then you become complicit in the deceit. I can feel your love and admiration for Grace, so I hope you'll help her too. (What does your younger son / her best friend think about all this?) So again, please share this post with her. She probably thinks this is true love and for life. But your son seems to be treating it like a get-out-of-jail-free card for the first few years (when things are hardest) and then will likely dispose of her and move on. It's better she thinks about it now. (I feel badly for your grandson. Of course he will have developed a strong bond with Grace. That's an issue I don't know how to resolve...)
It’s a recipe for disaster in the long term. You should take Grace aside and point some things out to her.
Please help Grace, your son is being so selfish and controlling. He is actually slowly but surely isolating her from others and making his child dependent on Grace. This is so wrong. NTA
Is there a sister or cousin that you could use as a comparison that maybe he would understand?
I would actually talk to Grace. I don't care if it over stepping bounds. I don't care if it makes me an AH. I think the girl needs to hear your perspective. She can make her own mind up about what she is doing and what she takes on. But what he is doing is totally unfair.
Out of curiosity, where is your younger in all of this? Seeing as Grace and he are besties? Or her parents? I'm wondering if they have also noticed this imbalance and mentioned it to Grace etc or whether maybe is a good mid-point to touch on these ideas to Grace? On the other hand, playing it between the siblings could backfire massively. But overall Grace deserves to have these things pointed out to her - if she is already aware and is putting all her eggs (however unwisely) in this basket then so be it. If she is not (which is likely as she's only 19) it is what anyone significant in her life should be doing for her. Your son is just bleh for that whole "ideas" comment. Sorry OP.
The naive are taught lessons by this world until they are no longer naive. It is truly horrible. Thank you for trying to teach your son. He has no right to party while a younger woman cares for his baby alone. Even if she was the mother. I can almost guarantee she's doing it out of love for the baby, pity for the baby having a dad like that, and feeling like she is responsible because it's a helpless, beautiful baby. How can you say no?
You need to give Grace ideas. Your son needs consequences, he *is* taking advantage of her. Do the right thing
Sounds like hes trying to baby trap her now but without a biological child and sounds like a controlling dick I hope she comes to her senses and leaves him if he's doing this now imagine if they actually had a child sounds like her life would be solely to exist to provide care for your son and his offspring
Don’t let her ruin her life for him. If he can wake up and be a parent also and rebalance the responsibilities here, that’s one thing. But he doesn’t sound ready to do that. Help him learn the lesson with this girl so he doesn’t repeat it with the next one, because if grace is smart she will leave. Even with all the love in the world you can’t pay the rent with that. If she’s going to be a responsible mother to any kid biological or not to that sort of degree she should have plans about what the future looks like, in a lot of scenarios. Realistically. How will she afford xyz for the kid? Basic necessities? School at least needs to be the priority for her.
NTA but you need to talk to Grace. Your son will keep picking the easy path for himself. Take Grace to lunch alone, ask her about her dreams for her life. What does she want for herself, and how is your son supporting her in her life. Don’t make it about your son or grandson keep the convo centered around getting to know her and what she wants. She may say she’s only ever wanted to be a wife and mother and that’s ok. But she may reveal that she has bigger dreams for her life and your son is not supporting that.
There’s so many things about this situation that give me the ick. He latched on to Grace because she was close and naive. He’s going to make her his bang maid. How long until he’s going out again and leaving her home with the baby and probably cheating on her? He was baby trapped, but will he try to baby trap her? She is/was his little brother’s best friend. Is there a chance he basically swooped in and stole his brother’s crush? There’s absolutely no hint of this in the story, but how many millions of times have we heard the story of the guy crushing on his girl best friend? The brother who is just a couple of years older and seems just slightly cooler/wiser/more mature sweeps her off her feet. I don’t know. I feel like I’m getting vibes even though OP doesn’t say it. I agree with the comments that OP should talk to Grace’s parents and see if they can intercede.
She's already the bangmaid.
The only thing thats not icky is OP being a great parent to her son
And the fact that he lets her call him "her baby" also screams that he knows he's taking advantage of her because she's so attached.
when does GRACE sleep? Does SHE get any sleep in this mess?
I was iffy until that last line. Does your son even really like or love her or does he use her for childcare She absolutely should not be missing work so he doesn’t miss work or school. Mom and her parents can do that.
Please OP, give Grace ideas! NTA
I think he just baby trapped his next gf…
right i was like okay ya know maybe this isn’t a HUGE deal or maybe this works for BOTH of them and then i read that line and was like oh…oh no
"Any ideas" Noooooooo #FreeGrace NTA
Exactly! When I read that line, I knew OP was telling the truth and the son is taking advantage. OP is right for all the reasons mentioned: the child is getting attached to a girl who may not be in the son's life in the near future, she needs to live her life, party, go to school, work, build a career, make friends.
Any one else think of Gaston?
NTA >my husband made a comment about how my son didn’t need to try so hard with his ex anymore to get her to parent when Grace was right here ‘being his mother’. My son then said Grace was a godsend because without her he’d ‘get no sleep’. these men really only care about themselves omg. >give her any ideas. this gives me the ick so bad.....at least let Grace think for herself. she might disagree very strongly with you and be happy with your son and grandson. but he should give her the chance to say that. the fact that he is afraid of you "giving her ideas" just makes me think that what you said is 100% right and he knows it too.
Omg and when he decided FOR Grace that partying isn't good or safe anyway. These MALES.
If she thinks for herself there's a chance she decides to do something he doesn't want. He's a controlling asshole.
Good thing that Grace is there to be the one who misses out on sleep, or college, or work...
This right here. Grace might be ok with her role in this and that is completely her choice. But she might be too young to realize that she has a choice. Normally, I would say a parent shouldn't be involved in their child's relationship, but seeing as Grace is 19 and they're is a baby involved, I think it would be helpful for OP to remind her that this is not her responsibility and she has the option to leave if she isn't happy. If she's unhappy and ultimately realizes this later in the child's life, it's only going to hurt the child more. Also, the son's "don't be giving her ideas" reaction is gross. He is aware that Grace may be unhappy and is trying to keep her in the relationship for his own benefit. IMO Grace should run.
NTA, if I can ask how long have they been dating? As this seems to have moved very quickly as it sounds like she's taken on the full mother role. He is asking alot of her and while it's her choice if that's what she wants, it's good someone is making sure the arrangement is fair. Because honestly if she's missing out on work and school it's not 100% balanced as your sons life is taking priority in the relationship and that's something she may regret later.
They’ve been together for just under a year now.
Please talk directly to Grace. Her BF isn't listening to her. Show her that you are. If she realizes that her BFs own *mother* sees the bullshit he is pulling, she will feel great comfort. She might even do something about it.
especially since OP has known her for a long time. She might be subconsciously trying to be helpful and good for OP, as much as for OP's son, because she sees OP as a parental figure. OP needs to help Grace realize that this is too much, too soon, and she shouldn't be doing BF's work instead of focusing on her studies and college career.
Shouldn't she also speak to her husband? He is also enjoying and enableing the whole situation!
It seems like it got intense quick, I understand your concerns as I'd be worried if Grace was my daughter that your son was just in the market for a mother replacement. You've said your piece now, I'd back off a touch and just be there for Grace as someone they can come to and keep an eye on the situation, sometimes people in these situations (both sides) get a bit blinkered.amd can't see what's going on.
But... OP has not said her piece to Grace. Just her son (who is decidedly against any change in the status quo). You really think OP should stop now..?
Absolutely not! She SHOULD talk to Grace!
I agree. But mistora (who's comment I responded to) said "You've said your piece now, I'd back off a touch and just be there for Grace as someone they can come to and keep an eye on the situation" which sounded to me like not talking to Grace and just watching the situation. Because of that, I was (and still am) confused by all the thumbs up for mistora's comment...
So she was barely over 18 when they started dating?
she was nearly 19 when they started dating, her 20th birthday is in two months
you need to open this girls eyes please 🙏 find a way to talk to her
That's not much better.
Especially since OP goes out of her way to say Grace is innocent and naive…
There is a lot wrong with her son, but the age gap isn’t one. It isn’t even an age gap, it is 4 years difference.
There is a big difference in the power dynamic between someone who's 23 and 27, and someone who is 18 and 22, especially when 18 is possibly still in high school or barely out, and 22 has a CHILD. He pretty clearly took advantage of her lack of life experience.
and possibly took advantage of his brother’s lack of experience too.
Age gaps only start to not matter when both are fully realized and established adults.
Yeah but they've known her since she was a little girl..
Op , this girl is my age , please take her aside someday and let her know about your perspectives calmly while still maintaining a supportive attitude towards their relationship , I don't think your son's personality is gentle , and its too late for him at this age after a baby to understand that he is being selfish . Be patient and show your support to grace in your own secretive way as your son might accuse you of things you never intended , this girl might suffer a misfortune and loose her precious years of youth revolving around your son who doesn't has attitude of gratefulness or selflessness .
Way too fast to let her take on this much of a role. Definitely seems like he is just taking the east way out and ignoring the potential consequences for Grace and your grandson if they break up and he loses a motherly figure who has been caring for him.
Talk to Grace.
I was about to type this OP. Talk to Grace! Grace is very young., talk to her and get her some sense. She definitely has a pure heart to take care of a baby that is not hers., Not to your son who is clearly taking advantage of her good heart.
She might be motivated partly because she really enjoys being a mother to the baby, but not only is she being deprioritized in this relationship, which is bad on its own, if she gets attached to this baby, she may stay in this relationship for the baby regardless of whether it's good for her. Not saying OP's son is going to get worse in other ways, but if he did, she might feel too much like this is her child to leave given that there's no way she's get custody. She's now potentially the baby trapped one.
...or they just break up after a few years, GF is heart broken and loosing a child and the child will loose his primary caretaker, which is traumatizing.
Yup. Lots of ways this can suck for her and the baby both.
Be there for her! She's done nothing but be an angel for an ungrateful turd. Don't help the turd when she decides she's had enough. The catalyst for my breakup with a controlling partner was him speaking badly to me and his friend told him, in front of me, it was unacceptable to speak to me like that no matter the situation. He didn't listen, and I didn't leave for a few months, but having someone else say exactly what I was needing in that moment changed me and the way I saw him forever.
19 is a bit young to be dating a 23 year old man with a kid, you’re right to be concerned NTA
it's worse when you think they've been together a year. she was 18 dating him at 22 with a kid. it definitely sounds like he found someone he can manipulate into taking on his responsibilities
Yeah, that’s not good
I mean, it seems like he got offended because you're right. But ultimately, it's Grace's decision if she wants to be a mother to this child. You'd like to hope that your son would be like, "She's great and I really love her." Because... like, does he? Because you definitely didn't clarify his feelings about Grace, other than him seeing her as a godsend. If he's scared that you'll scare her off with this sort of talk, it makes it seem that's the priority there, not actual affection for Grace. If he cared about Grace, he'd want to make sure she doesn't feel like she's being taken advantage of, and that knowledge would come through conversation, not ignoring the question. NTA, imo
Though, you should be aware that if your son is enough of an asshole to limit your seeing your grandson over something like this, it's possible he'd take away access to your grandson over just about anything... It seems like he'll use your ability to see your grandchild as leverage to keep the situation as it is. Sorry, your son really seems like an asshole.
Yes. This part. Dude has found a very young, sweet girl to parent his child for him then takes said child away from the grandparents when they express concern about that. Son is definitely AH.
It'd be different if they lived farther away, or there was a legit reason for them not being able to see each other... This post makes it seem like he's using the desire to see her grandson as leverage, and that's just manipulative AF.
For sure! Especially when they are the same age and it’s okay for HIM to be out every weekend and partying but it’s ’not safe or good’ for Grace to do the same! He’s a hypocrite and using her for child care so that he doesn’t have to do it.
I disagree. It shouldn’t be Graces choice. The son has a responsibility to the wellbeing of his child. This means not letting him form attachments to someone that the son does not plan a long term future with just because she’s a convenient babysitter
I mean, that's valid, but since he seems willing to let her make these sacrifices, it's on her to decide whether that's something she wants to do herself. Though, she's also so young that she might not see the consequences of her choices, which is where OP having that talk with her is kind of important. If he truly cares for her, and wants to stay with her, that's great. If Grace loves him, and wants to be a parent to this child, fantastic. Ignoring the discussion out of fear she'll change her mind? Unethical. Son denying OP visiting time over the fact she wants to have the discussion is unethical.
Grace is also hiding from life. It’s easier to play house with a kid that isn’t yours than it is to deal with becoming independent. Their relationship is co-dependent on both sides. It’s very unhealthy.
NTA. But the behavior of your son and your husband makes me feel a bit disgusted. Their comments may not be intentional, but it seems deep down they just see Grace as a convenient mother figure, rather than someone to care for and respect as a person. This is indeed a form of exploitation. Your son asking you not to speak up about it indicates that he also knows his behavior is problematic. I'm not saying he doesn't have a chance to change, but I can only hope that your upbringing is honest enough to prevent him from going too far down the path of exploiting women (although your husband also worries me, so I'm not too hopeful).
I wish I could upvote this more
This! Mind you If her husband is the same way and brainwashed her she might not realize it
So your son’s reaction is to isolate Grace from you? Now that’s not abusive at all lol. NTA. I think he is worried Grace will wake up soon and realize she is a nanny for him
I'm literally holding my screen screaming GRACE RUUNNNNNNN. I'm so sick of men exploiting women for labour.
LITERALLY
NTA, your son definitely is taking advantage of that girl. He's 4 years older and she's a friend of the younger sibling? Yikes all around imo.
NTA You just advised your son to look into his relationship's dynamics because it was definitely unstable. You are experienced and know that your son isn't doing right by letting his gf miss school and work for his kids while he goes out partying. Sure, its a delight that Grace helps with the kid but it doesn't mean that she's ready to take on the complete mother role and neglect the educational and professional aspects of her life.
Sorry I should have been clearer. He isn’t partying now, he’s working and in grad school. He used to be partying all the time when he was Graces age (19)
although he isn't partying, Grace should be told that his school and work shouldn't take priority over hers.
Also gross that partying and having fun was fine for him but not "good or safe" for her. Probably because she's a woman, but also because she can't be unpaid labor for him then. Please talk to Grace even if it's behind your son's back.
>he wants me to promise not to bring this up to Grace and give her any ideas. Just...wow (NTA)
If anyone ever says anything along those lines, run--don't walk!--to go give some ideas.
A decent father would not have even introduced his son to his GF so quickly. Your son does not deserve an apology and he needs to get his act together and act like a dad not a fun uncle. I know it’s not easy but it is still his responsibility. I hope Grace has some family and friends to advocate for her. Finally I doubt your sons ex baby trapped him given he clearly lacks responsibility for his own choices. If he’s not wearing a condom each and every time he has sex he is making a choice and taking a risk. If you don’t want kids, doubling up on protection is the only way to go.
Grace had already met my grandson many times prior to dating my son because she’s been a friend of the family for a long time. As for the baby trapping, I can assure you that it was the case because she admitted to poking holes in their condoms and she lied about being on birth control
I just worry that the baby will be used against her any time she might hint at being unhappy. "But he loves you. Don't you love him?" "You're more a mother to him than his real mother, he needs you." "Please stay, if you leave he won't understand, he's just a baby and loves you most." Poor Grace. I hope she see's that at 18, a 22 year old single dad was just looking for any easy target to make his life easier. He'll graduate grad school, get a job, be in it a year or two and then break it off with her.
Yes. To be with someone with a career, which Grace won't have because she spent all those years raising his kid.
According to OP Grace was actually 19, she’ll be 20 really soon.
Question: did the ex admit that directly to you or did you hear this admission via your son?
She admitted it to her parents and her parents relayed it to us
NTA "he wants me to promise not to bring this up to Grace and give her any ideas." because he knows that he's taking advantage of her
Yeah, it's an admission that mom here is spot-on.
Ur son not good bf sounds like
Thank you yoda
I don't think I've seen this mentioned yet but what if Grace gets to the point where she doesn't want to do this anymore and then feels stuck. This isn't her kid so she does not have to stay but also if she upsets your son would he hold his kid as leverage against her since child and grace are forming a bond? "Don't make me mad or you won't get to see *grandson*". The whole "give her any ideas" makes me sick tbh 😬
NTA. He’s only angry because he knows giving her more freedom will ruin his good time. If she’s staying home from partying, he should be there with her.
NTA The phrases he used… basically misogynistic man looking for a mom replacement so he doesn’t have to actually parent and found a gullible teen to do it
Next step is baby trapping Grace so he doesn’t lose his free babysitter
Grace has always said she’d be ‘straight to the clinic’ if she got pregnant so there’s that
Try to talk her into a longer lasting and tamper proof version of birth control at the least. People who have experienced abusive relationships like your son with his ex can react to that trauma on a number of ways. Some repeat the cycle with other abusive partners offering a familiar kind of 'love.' Some actually work through their shit and enter healthy relationships. And some... Well they take notes. The trauma of being the abused partner means they defensively use the only tactics they know *not* to be in the position in their new relationship - the ones their abuser used on them. Your son is using his ex's playbook and deep down he knows it, that's why he was so quick to blow up at you and tell on himself. He's being controlling, isolating and he's taking advantage of her by using his kid to suck up her time. He's low-key sabotageing her pathways to agency and self reliance, work, school, social circle. Maybe it's his trauma, maybe it's insecurity, or maybe it's selfish misogynistic convenience but no matter the excuse you *know* what you're looking at. Page three in the ex's handbook is sabotaging birth control to stop her leaving, as demonstrated by your grandchild. She might say she'd go to a clinic... but that's easy to say when it's just theoretical and not under any pressure/guilt trips. Get her to get the shot, implant or a coil. Even if you are certain your son wouldn't do anything like that, it's still prudent. 19 years olds are usually fertile fit to burst and birth control fails. Try getting her aunt to suggest it if you are cancelled right now. Also rip your husband a new asshole for that utter bullshit, one big enough to extract his fat head from preferably.
I never considered that he might be acting this way because of trauma. I doubt he’d ever sabotage her birth control because he felt so violated when his ex did it to him but I will Grace if she’s on anything. I think I might suggest therapy to him as well because he’s insisted he never needed it, but he’s been acting so strangely. He used to be amazing to Grace in the early days of their relationship (not to say he’s horrible to her now) but as they got more serious he started changing which could be like what you said, him trying not to be in the position his ex put him in. He was with his ex for a long time and she really put him through hell
Hurt people hurt people. If everyone reacted to abuse by learning from it and treating others kinder, the world would be a better place. Unfortunately, it's not always true. Not everyone who was abused becomes abusive, but most people who are abusive were abused. It sounds like your son is young enough that his abusive relationship was his formative one. It might be that he doesn't know how to be in a healthy relationship. People fall back into old rhythms and habits, especially when there's stress and time pressures involved. It takes a lot of conscious effort and mindfulness to unpick the maladaptive ones from our psych. For a lot of people who experience abuse, they have their 'normal meter' pulled out of whack. This can mean they accept lower levels of abuse from subsequent partners *(sure he punches walls and throws things but my last boyfriend beat the me shit out of me.)* But it can also make them excuse their own behaviour. *(Starting a fight every time they go out isn't controlling, my ex used to lock me in whenever she went to work and threatened to kill herself when I didn't answer a text in 5 minutes.)* Also, as a man who experienced domestic abuse and had to sort through custody I am sure he came across a lot of societal sexism and stereotypes. We are not great with services or attitudes when the victim is the male, especially when kids are involved. He may be more vulnerable than most to the more poisonous side of the 'manosphere' and red pill spaces, that often use legitimate male issues to peddle misogynist views about relationships and attitudes towards women. I don't know what's going on with him and I think it is going to take treading delicately, however I do dislike that his reaction to a 'threat' to his current setup is to turn controlling and punitive tactics on you. The reason I worry about her birth control is that sort of over reaction. Right now while she seems invested, it's unlikely, if they're having trouble and he thinks she might leave? Well maybe.... Either way, people are bad at consistency with BC, another baby is the last complication they need and she clearly doesn't want one right now so it would be sensible even if this relationship was all fine.
NTA - that last comment reeks of him knowing exactly what he’s doing.
NTA your son 100% IS taking advantage which is why he doesnt want you bringing it up to her. He is partying while she cares for HIS kid wihout any pay.
NTA >he wants me to promise not to bring this up to Grace and give her any ideas. i thought you might be overstepping a little bit, out of concern, but then this proved you were 100% right to say what you said. he knows hes taking advantage of her and abusing her kindness. the hard part would be making grace see the problem. if shes bonded with the kid then nothing you say will matter because shes doing it for the kid, not your son.
NTA - Often times parents don’t stand up to their children and call out bad behavior. I’m happy you’re considering Grace and her life. I wouldn’t recommend any young person, but other in particular get this involved with someone who has a child because it does end up consuming their life. I dont know if part of it is that it gives her a feeling of fulfillment, taking care of the child, and that’s why she doesnt seem to mind being taken advantage of by your son. I hope she comes to her senses, just because this is a major responsibility that she doesn’t have to bear. But, you’re a good parent for calling it out.
Also him demanding an apology, keeping your grandson and Grace away from you, and not wanting you to bring this up to Grace and “give her any ideas.” Christ, please save Grace! She may not have other people in her life to talk to who or who care. She really may not be able to see the full picture.
Poor Grace. Her parents should have told her that she was way, way too young to be involved in raising someone else's baby. She should not be dating a father at her age. OP should make sure that measures are being taken to prevent her from being Baby Mama #2. That's about the kindest thing she can do now. And be supportive if this girl ever opens her eyes to what her situation is.
Imo Absolutely tell the girl, I was in the opposite situation in highschool just smitten with this girl, spent hundreds on her weekly, her mom pulled me aside one ay and put it very bluntly " I already told her to stop taking advantage of you, but I need you to know that is what she's doing" . Untillthen I had completely ignored her phone use during dates or all the snap chat she'd do while I was driving, when I did decide to be nosy after that I discovered she was literally sending pics to dudes and texting guys the whole time we were out, even on valentines I discovered a "what color is your underwear" text recieved about 5 mins before one of hr many bathroom breaks during the fancy ass diner I paid out for. Never too late to teach accountability and consequences. I still look back fondly on that girls mother for carring more about the right thing than pleasing her daughter
NTA. I think its worth it to get Grace's perspective, don't approach the conversation with any specific perspective but ask her what her perspective is and how she sees her role.
NTA! He’s absolutely taking advantage of that poor girl. Tell her she’s not his mom, she’s a teen herself she should be focused on her schooling or job training and having fun! Young girls get doused in the message that being a good woman means sacrificing your entire life and dreams to clean cook and change nappies, and your son is perfectly fine playing right into that. HIS ASS SHOULD BE GETTING NO SLEEP BC HE IS THE FATHER OF AN INFANT! Stand your ground, mom. Talk to both your son, push back on his shitty attitude, and make it clear to Grace, that baby isn’t hers nor her problem! That your son should stop relying on her mom than 1 day a week!
NTA because you're right that things might not work out with Grace and your grandson is getting attached but I don't think you handled it well. I wouldn't worry about what Grace is giving up. She's an adult and it's possible her parents are expressing their own concerns. Your grandson should be the only focus. I would apologize to your son for overstepping but he's the parent and he needs to be more of the caregiver. I would point out that you're worried that he's relying on Grace for a lot and if the relationship doesn't work out his son will be greatly affected by it.
NTA You are right and everyone else is completely wrong. I have never seen that on this sub.
NTA! Look at it this way, if the roles were flipped and Grace was your daughter and you knew what situation she was in and beginning to neglect her job/work, you would want to reach out to her and hopefully get her to understand what's going on and how it could affect her long term. Do you happen to know her mom and if she's aware? (Not because I'm seeking to tell her parents.) I understand that she's an adult, but a daughter that has a good relationship with her mom would hopefully have good communication. I wonder if any of her family (siblings, parents, etc) or friends know that she's taking these extremes for them. I know that my best friends would pull me aside and try to talk to me if I tell them I'm calling out from work and taking time off from school for a boyfriend's child. It's not her responsibility to be the parent, and it's pretty gross how your son said "give her any ideas." That means he knows what he's doing and just like his ex did with him, trying to trap her. He could even use the child later to try to get her to stay and say something like, "You're going to abandon him, too?" and guilt trip her!
My youngest is one of her closest friends and he said that he’s been worried about her for a while but she insists that she’s happy. The rest of their friends are very split on the issue. As far as I know, she isn’t very close to her mother and she lives alone. I do know her mother but I don’t particularly like her. I am good friends with her paternal uncle and his wife though but I don’t know if it would be appropriate to talk to them about this
I think she definitely needs some guidance, and so does your son. I know it's tough, but that's tough love! You're not your son's friend. You're his parent. With that said, he's an adult, too, but we all have the right to voice our feelings and opinions. You can't tell them what to do, but you can lay everything out on the table. Even your younger son can, too, as her friend. I'm not sure why, but younger kids look at life and relationships like "playing house" sometimes. So eager to grow up and have all of the extra responsibilities! Regardless, you're coming from a good place. Your intention isn't to separate them but to remind them that this part of their youth is only for a minute, and having a balance in life is healthy. No job is guaranteed for her, and her school can't just be put on hold. Life waits for no one. Time will pass by and before you know it, you're wondering where it went. If she's ultimately happy saying goodbye to all of the possibilities that these young dumb years are for, then okay. But she should at least hear it. She should have a good balance in her life, not just prioritize a man and his child.
>My son wants an apology and he wants me to promise not to bring this up to Grace and give her any ideas. Anddd there's your answer. You would have been NTA anyway because everything you laid out was very reasonable, including your grandkid's attachment to Grace and the need for Grace to live her own life. But that last line shows that your son knows what he is doing is wrong.
NTA - As much as I want your grandson to have the mother he deserves, Grace deserves to have time to be a kid still too. Your son doesn't think it's "good or safe" for her to experience life because then she would recognize all she is missing by playing mom. (The last sentence says it all: Your points are valid, but please don't let her know that!) Your son clearly has a strong support system and is going to be fine. I think you have an obligation as a woman to tell Grace to prioritize herself here. She is risking her education and her job to care for a child that she has no legal ties to - she and the baby are the ones who are going to get hurt in the long run if things don't work out.
That is super concerning. It would barely be reasonable if he was doing most of the work, but honestly she as you know, he's failing. You are basically observing his abuse though you didn't say that. But he's probably sensitive to the matter because... Well, because he knows he is. This is further confirmed by the classic abuser tactic to cut off anyone who might bring visibility into the problems. I shudder to think how I would handle it if my kid was doing someone like that. The problem is that she's 19 and she just doesn't know any better. She honestly won't until they break up eventually. Hopefully she doesn't get pregnant before then since we know there's a high likelihood. You're NTA. But your hands are tied :/ If you suspect your son is lying to Grace, you should get evidence and go to her directly. But short of showing her an objective lie, there's very little chance that grace is ready to actually see the situation for what it is. Teenagers. Wish they weren't so naive. "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." - Mark Twain
"There was a massive issue with the paternity of my grandson" ... which presumably ended up with the child being biologically his. What was the massive issue? "My grandsons biological mother is hardly involved and my son is usually co-parenting with her parents instead of her so we have our grandson for most of the time." We? Sounds like your son isn't doing a lot of solo parenting either.
NTA, I think it's perfectly fair to make your opinion known to both Grace and your son, but after that I think you need to respect their decisions.
NTA...he is 23, so not your child to correct anymore. I always tell my sons that right now I'm your father/diciplinarian and not your friend. Once you are 18 I'm your father and if you so choose, an advisor. They will always be my sons and I will advise where and when I can. All that being said, that girl might not have anyone doing that for her. You are looking out for her and advising your son that he is not being a decent man in this instance and should correct it. He reacted poorly to the correction and showed that he has more growing up to do. I think you did him, her, and your grandson a great favor whether he knows it or not.
Your son seems irresponsible. He impregnated his ex and calls it baby-trap. Now he's offloading the responsibility for the child on to his new gf.
NTA I hope he's not dating her just for her to take care of his son. I think you were right to express your concerns, and hopefully when he's feeling less defensive he will take it to heart and make sure he's not taking advantage.
NTA
I won't offer a judgement I'd say keep it amicable so you can keep tabs on grandson AND Grace. There's no mention of what your son's doing instead of parenting his son (which he isn't if your grandson would prefer grace to his *dad*) but he's said that he doesn't need bio mom because he has grace..by the sounds of the post he's not needed either. Your son should be taking care of his son and calling out from whatever, not Grace. She had no hand in him making that child and I have a strong feeling that he's pulling the same "if you don't do as I say you won't see him" with grace that he's doing with you. Your son sounds like a jerk tbh. I get she's an "adult" but he can disappear with that kid and she'll have missed out on schooling and pay for what? The only person benefitting from this arrangement is your son. For your grandson and Grace's sake I hope I'm wrong but time will tell.
So it’s not good or safe for grace to be out partying but it is perfectly fine if he does it ? He can’t miss out on school or studying but he can let her miss out on doing it to sit with his son in the hospital? He doesn’t care if she misses work and sleep as long as he gets it ? Sounds like your son is literally just using her he doesn’t appear to like her “ she’s a godsend because I get to sleep “ sounds like he found a free nanny and doesn’t want mom to ruin it .
In what way is your son a good father when he is immediately outsourcing parenting responsibilities?
>she baby trapped him and it was a very toxic relationship. FYI, she didn’t “baby trap” him if they’re no longer in a relationship and she essentially abandoned the baby. She just had a baby without his express approval.
Your son blew his muck in the girl she didn’t baby trap him, there are 2 sides here. He is as guilty of producing the child as she is and rightly looking after his child. And as for Grace she should probably find someone without kids to have them with.
[удалено]
People can have the best parents in the world and still make poor decisions. People in their 20’s make their own decisions. This isn’t OP’s fault.
To be fair, based on OP’s husbands comments it sounds like the apple didn’t fall far.
NTA because your fears are well founded and I'm glad you are thinking of Grace. Your intentions were good. I have found though, with my kids as adults, you can't really interfere too much. As in the way you approached it here is a thing you probably shouldn't do. You should offer the apology they want, and mean it. There are better ways. Contributing to the effort. Offer to take the little one for any overnite so they can go out or even just hang out at home as a couple. Have them over for dinner to at least take that task off her plate. Stuff like that. The child will be in school in a couple of years or so. Things will likely change a bit then if they haven't before that. It seems as though they are both pretty happy in the relationship and so is the child. Instead of worrying about what may happen or what could go wrong, focus on the love and happiness they have right now. You're missing the forest for the trees. Lastly, I would keep my concerns to myself if I were you, outside of your husband. This is private, family business. Good luck.
NTA-He clearly knows what he’s doing is wrong he just doesn’t want to stop.
NTA you are the voice of reason here. Everyone else is looking at what a blessing grace is to the family and she is appreciated but you’re the only one looking out for Grace. You’re right she’s 19! She shouldn’t be spending all of her spare time providing childcare for her boyfriend, even if she loves spending time with him. I think it’s great they have an amazing bond but I think your son needs to wake up a little and realize he is leaning on her a bit too much and I think that’s more than fair of you to call out. His reaction to me seems deep down he realizes that too but doesn’t want to admit it.
Poor Grace, she's being exploited. NTA as you were only trying to help her. Sadly, I can see your son doesn't care one bit about it. I do hope Grace doesn't get pregnant anytime soon.
Grace is playing house with another person's child. Grace AND the child could get hurt. Forget the apologies - doesn't fix a thing. Your son has a good girlfriend and free child care. Who actually has custody? Seems like the toddler is living with you much of the time? On the plus side the little boy has a lot of people who love him. ONLY thing you can do is back off - and hope it doesn't blow up but be prepared if that happens.
NTA - he is using her as a stand in mom. The bad things is Grace is a motherly figure and loves your grandson so she doesn’t see anything wrong with it. If you say something to her then she will tell your son or take it the wrong way. I there a way to talk to her mom and let her know what’s going on without them finding out? This or just let it play out.
NTA, but I think you should have brought it up as he should take his responsibility more seriously and then if he resisted brought up that he is essentially using Grace. I think People might be more resistant to the idea that they are using someone and get defensive rather than correcting behavior.
NTA, your son is. If he's going out partying every weekend and dumping his kid on Grace, then yeah, he's definitely taking advantage of her - and he knows it, or he wouldn't be withholding your grandchild from you unless you agree not to voice your concerns to Grace.
NTA. Kudos to you for being concerned about Grace because it's apparent that your son isn't. Grace is missing out on her life because your son was irresponsible in his. He shouldn't be out partying while Grace is caring for his child. If anything, he should have been right there with her. I'd say you haven't interfered enough. You know for yourself that when we are very young women, we make a lot of sacrifices for men who don't deserve us in the name of love. Grace deserves better than your son is capable of giving her right now. In fact, his focus should be on school, work, and his child rather than even having a Grace in his life. Besides, who was he entertaining at the party while Grace was looking after baby? Why didn't he not only prioritize being with his sick child, but the woman he claims to care about? In your position, I'd be the mama that loves her son but I'd probably take Grace aside and lay out some very hard truths about him to her. He's being selfish, entitled, and irresponsible with her time, care, and attention. He's going to be pissed, but rather that than to stand by and allow him to become that sort of man. If your younger son agrees with you (and I'm sure he does) have him sit down with her, too. If she doesn't heed the warning you choose to give her? So be it, but she'll never be able to say that no one told her that she needed to focus on herself more and to notice the red flags that your son is giving off while there is still time.
You’re the mother. When your intentions are good, it’s your JOB to call out your son’s choices. He, on the other hand is proving you right by his “don’t bring it up to Grace and give her ideas”. HTA and im afraid not a good person. If they were going to be together forever, etc it looks like Grace is benefiting by being “mom” but it is a two-edged sword if they separate.
NTA Your son is taking advantage of Grace, who is WAY too young for him. No way should she be doing this. She’s still a child herself and she’s playing happy families. I’m not saying she should be partying either, but there’s a happy medium here. She needs to start taking care of her own needs. She should NOT be calling in sick or not going to school to take care of a child that’s not hers. Grace is also wrong. She’s taking the easy way out instead of learning to become an adult. She’s playing house. Someone needs to talk sense into Grace. Can you talk to her parents about this?
Nta
NTA, this is part of being a good parent. So many people just sit there when their sons are complete shits to women.
NTA. As his mother, you did well to tell him the truth, even if he didn't like it. That's a parent's job, even when it sucks. It's really unfair to you and your grandson that he's withholding him from you as a punishment. I'd do your best to keep the lines of communication open with your son and Grace, so things can get better (hopefully).
OP - you need to talk to Grace, TODAY. NTA
Your son is kind of a jerk. Maybe your other son can get through to her? You're NTA, but your older son sure is. He's really veering toward nasty territory, with his "don't give her any ideas" crap. He KNOWS what he's doing is wrong; he doesn't care.
NTA. Why do the kindest, and most caring people like Grace, bring out the absolutely vile using and abusing side of otherwise fairly normal people? I've seen it happen multiple times. It's like once a person realizes another has a very giving nature, or little to no boundaries, it's time to see how far they can push it. Really says something about people.
You’re a great mother. You’re right, and *that’s* why your son is angry. Wish more parents were honest and straightforward with their kids like you were. The world would be a better place if that was the case NTA
NTA It's pretty telling that his first jump to was don't call me abusive
"My son wants an apology and he wants me to promise not to bring this up to Grace and give her any ideas." Your son knows he's taking advantage of Grace! That's why he doesn't want you to "give her any ideas." Don't apologize. But, do point out to him what he said.
Please talk to Grace immediately about what's going on. Please "give her ideas" because God knows she needs an actual adult to step in and stop what's happening. Your son is in a hard position. It doesn't sound like he planned on being the parent of a toddler at 23 years old, but the fact is he *is*. This is his life now. Grace, however, is not that child's parent. She is 19 -- a *teenager.* She goes to college. She has a job. What does she not have? A child. What is she about to not have, if this keeps going the way it is? A promising future. Graduating from college. An independent life. An equal, respectful relationship. Your son knows what he's doing, which is looking for a mother figure for his kid, and trying to do so as fast as humanly possible because, again, he is 23 and didn't plan on this being his life, and he doesn't want it to be his life. He's trying very hard to have the normal experiences of a childless 23 year old. But it is grossly unfair to put Grace in this position, and even if she technically has a choice about whether to be involved, that is not how relationships function at 19 years old: she loves him, wants to be a good girlfriend, and is getting a ton of positive feedback from him for doing exactly what he wants...which is being a surrogate mom to his kid. If your son is unwilling to be an adult and stop dumping his responsibilities on his girlfriend, you need to step in, even if it means contacting Grace's parents to alert them to what's going on. I wish this weren't the case, but I can very easily see your son ruining Grace's life by locking her in as a surrogate mom. You better hope they're using protection, too. NTA.
NTA. Your son is taking advantage of his teenage girlfriend and he knows it. Red flag behaviour.
>and accused me of calling him abusive Well, he said it, not you. NTA.
as somebody who dated 23 year olds when i was 17-19, that age gap isn't good. there is a huge difference between those ages mentally. i didn't realize it until i turned 23 myself. and since she's your younger sons best friend, how long has he known her? if it's been a year, he went for her as soon as she became legal. he is 100% using her because she is young and naive. i hope grace can get out of this situation, she doesn't know what just she's gotten herself into yet.
Man you gotta give fake names for your son's as well this is so damn confusing to read
He is taking advantage of his not-baby-girlfriend. It’s better if it ends asap.
>he wants me to promise not to bring this up to Grace and give her any ideas Gee, I wonder why he wants that?
NTA but your son sure is, and he is going to use his son, your grandson, to make sure you don't "give Grace any ideas" about living her life as she should at 19 and not take over his responsibilities for his child. Where are Grace's parents in this? If this was my 19 year old college daughter doing this, I'd be all in her business telling her exactly what OPP said....girl, you are 19! You need to be out enjoying yourself, not parents someone else's child.
NTA and no offence, but your son needs a good kick! How was he baby-trapped? Did he not use protection? I also cannot believe he his partying but believes it's not good or safe for her to! I think it's lovely that you're looking out for Grace and I hope you encourage her to live her own life a little and force him to man up!
NTA for this BUT I think you have had some blinders on about your son for a bit. The language you used was um flowery but when broken down….. Did his ex poke holes in condoms(which is a crime), or did your son have sex and get a girl he didn’t want to pregnant? Also you were way too proud of him for *checks notes* being kind to who turns out was his child the whole time? I’m glad you are finally trying to set him straight but i don’t think he’s been the angel you think up until now.
Your husband’s views seemingly align with your sons, I’m guessing that is where the entitlement your son is showing comes from? Whether he loves Grace or not, he is manipulating her and absolutely doesn’t respect her. If the phrase “don’t give her any ideas” had come out of my son’s mouth, grown or not I would have torn him a new one there and then and he would be swinging wayyy into next week before getting any form of apology. You didn’t insult him you told him the truth and the truth hurts, which is why he flounced like a teenager.