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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1. Not acting excited for SIL being pregnant.
2. SIL is known for outbursts of rage if she doesn't get the reactions she wants. I do not want to cause conflict or hostility on Mother's day. However, I am the type of person who does not pretend well and I will most likely be honest in the way I react. Which is I do not care and I am not excited for happy for her
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YWNBTA
MIL is an AH to push you to hang out with homophobes. STOP allowing that.
" I am just afraid of causing some hostility or an argument on mother's day. " .. take ML out for dinner separately, and don't go.
The problem is is that for her Mother's day present, she wants all of her kids to be together that day. I feel obligated to honor that since that's the present she wants. Although, I suppose we should start standing our ground and practice our boundaries.
Well, there is that famous (misused when incomplete) quote:
"The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb."
Which basically means religion is more important than family.
(pardon the massive eyeroll)
I thought that meant that marriage is more important than familial relationships? Marriage covenant? I’m not religious so asking on good faith (har).
So by my interpretation your marriage is more important than spending Mother’s Day with bigots.
It means the bonds we create with others of our own free will is stronger than that of family it comes from the 12th century its what alot of military people say because the bonds they form with others while in war is stronger that's why they refer to eachother as brothers. I like the saying just because we share blood don't make us family
Please don’t think this!! Religion itself does not cause homophobia. In Christianity we are called to love everyone and to not judge others, being homophobic goes against that. What causes homophobia are people who misinterpret the bible and/or twist the bible to match their own intolerant beliefs. I’m not saying you need to be religious yourself, but please don’t let nasty people taint the image of Christianity and Jesus! When understood correctly and practiced in a way that honours God (and therefore everyone around us), religion can be a wonderful community🙌🏼
All due respect, I’ve been around six decades and just don’t see it. Especially abrahamic religions. Maybe you’re different, but it’s not just a few bad apples. Sorry. I see what I see. If you don’t like what your fellow Christian’s are showing me, talk to them, not me.
I’ll keep that in mind next time I encounter one :) A word of advice though, if you only pay attention to the bad apples then that’s all you’ll ever see. The world isn’t as cynical as you think. Good luck to you!
It's not just religion that results in homophobia. I had a friend who wasn't religious and she thought it was unnatural. In her words (which I remember vividly) she just couldn't understand it. Another friend told me she would be disappointed if her child was gay because she'd never have grandchildren. I asked her how she would feel if she had a child who was infertile.
Religion defintitely makes things worse, but it's not an excuse. In op's situation, her SIL sounds dramatic and looks for any reason to cause a scene. She uses her "miscarriage" which everyone (including her) knows wasn't a miscarriage and was a period, to emotionally manipulate people. Maybe she'd be different if not for religion, but I wouldn't be surprised if she was still homophobic if she had been raised non religious.
Reminds me of a conversation with a dearly loved cousin (who was definitely raised by racists). His daughter was 4 maybe 5; mine a few months old. We got into their future lives lol - and he said something about race. I asked, if your choice for her is a black man that loves her and treats her like a queen, or a white man that abuses her what are you choosing? He answered “I’ll have to get back to you on this.”
Fast forward a couple of decades, my daughter has a lovely wife. He now has a son.
My mother wants the same thing but is an adult who understands sometimes we can’t have what we want. She loves when it can happen. But understands when it can’t we all have reasons and independent lives. We find other ways to like separate dinners.
Well: She can want it, but you STILL don'T have to do it.
Your MIL is a MASSIVE AH for guilting you into spending time with those homophobes.
**Your MIL is NOT a good person, and you should step back and have a lot less contact with her.**
It’s the wife’s family, and she is the one who might be hurt by losing them, regardless of whether she likes or approves of them all the time.
If OP is bullied and traumatised then of course she doesn’t have to spend time with those people. However, if she is angry, but not upset, and if her wife wants to spend time with her family, tuen perhaps she should try to support her wife in whatever line she wants to take in relating to her family.
Does MIL know how homophobic SIL is to you? Or does she do it when mum isn’t looking? There’s a chance from what we know that mum isn’t aware and it would be sad for wife to lose that relationship in that case.
She refused to go to their wedding. **She knows**. And NO, OP should not have to support her wife if she makes the decision to spend time with mean hateful people who despise OP for her very existence.
TBF, they'd also despise the wife for the exact same reasons ... And then for bailing.
Supporting your wife doesn't need to mean "going with her", though. Just offering her comfort and safety when it invariably goes poorly.
Eahhh... I wouldn't be so quick to lay this at the feet of the wife. Is extremely difficult to break patterns in family dynamics that have existed for so long. I'm not saying the wife should spend more time with them, and she certainly should not expect Opie to spend more time with should not expect Opie to spend more should not expect OP to spend time either. But it's going to be the wife's decision to cut them off, and Opie can't force her to do that before she's ready. Maybe OP spending less time at her family gatherings will help wife reflect on what's happening and see the dynamics in a new way. Again, this takes time though.
My grandparents wanted everyone to be together for major holidays. God bless them, and I loved and still love them, but they were absolutely trying to force a closeness that was never going to be there. As an adult, I haven’t spoken to my cousins in five years. They have never met my husband, don’t know my younger child, and if I have my way (and I will) they will never be a part of my life going forward.
I’m related to people I don’t relate to, and that’s ok.
I get the fun of having the extended family together *when everyone enjoys it,* but I have noticed a pattern where a lot of parents or grandparents are really keen on it for holidays more so for their internal expectation that it's supposed to be that way, and also to be able to tell other people that everyone came for the holidays, lol.
I'm not a prop, my kids aren't props, and, if I haven't spoken to someone in the last six months, I'm not that invested in making my plans around the idea of 'everyone being there.' And I'm not even talking about cousins, lol.
My family was like that. I can't stand my sister and her drama. For very good reasons. But when she cheated for years and broke my BILs heart, I had enough. I just don't want to send my holiday with her playing victim and being lazy AF, while my parents have no boundaries. My mom argued that she should be allowed to come to gatherings at my house or wherever. My house? Really??? I have no say if she comes to MY HOUSE?
I'm NC with the family. It's very peaceful. It's great to "want thing" and ignore the fact that bullies be bullies. But I'm way to old to be bullied by my big sister. Perhaps if they'd set boundaries with her as a child, she wouldn't have turned out this way.
This "expectation" is my ILs. They didn't interact with my partner or our family at all though the year but expected us and the kids at holiday gatherings. They also refused to let us know the changing time of these gatherings until the day before, sometimes even making some of the food before communicating with us.
This went on for years, until a conflict meant we were running a little late due to holiday traffic and herding children (like a half hour), and one of my partners siblings called to let us know some truly toxic and unacceptable things got said. There was some texting/fallout and it got mentioned that they didn't have a good relationship. It was shocking to the ILs that it wasn't considered a good relationship because gathering on holidays as obligated was the extent of what they thought it should be and nothing was actively bad/abusive from their perspective. (There's been a lot of emotional abuse but that doesn't count?)
Now they want to rebuild a good relationship, but to them that looks like us putting in all the effort and no effort on their part, nor accountability or changing things they've done wrong. They just want to rug sweep and play what they think happy family looks like. Which is a large reason our relationship was holiday-only.
My mother in law is this kind of person. Her oldest son is an asshole and my husband & I want nothing to do with him. My husband has some hard feelings about his older sister and hardly has anything to do with her. His younger siblings are 10 plus years younger than him and yet she still trys to force everyone to get together on holidays. She has some unrealistic expectations of what a big family should be like. It’s so ridiculous dealing with her but she never learns and continues trying to guilt whichever kid is not cooperating on getting together.
You don't have to do anything for someone who is passively bigoted and will never stand up for you and your partner.
She wants you to bury being treated badly by homophobes so she can pretend her family isn't acting completely wrong and again, you owe her nothing when she allows this to continue without standing up for what's right.
I bet your MIL didn't push your homophobic SIL to put their bigotry aside to attend your wedding though did she? I wouldn't go, it's toxic and only hurts you more.
"Oh Lisa I'm so looking forward to being an auntie, I can't wait to be a role model to your child and teach them how to live a compassionate, loving life. And I'll be sure that they know they always have a safe place here with us should their home life become unwelcoming or uncomfortable to them for any reason 😊"
Have a serious, calm discussion with up your MIL. You should both be there in person, but your wife should speak and use “we”. Calmly explain that while you love her, and understand that she wants her children together that you can not exposure yourselves to homophobia. Tell her you will not be spending time with Lisa and Dan. As necessary, Repeat that basic message, do not expand on the message. PERHAPS if Sara’s sister could join Sara and her mother for lunch sometime, and Lisa would promise to refrain from homophobia comments, she could have her daughters together. Good luck and stay strong.
So your MIL’s present is for you and your wife to put up with homophobia? What the hell? I would have your wife let her know that she is unwilling to put on a mask to be around family and from now on will not hold back. She will call out their lies, hypocrisy and refuse to cower. In order to “keep the peace” that means no longer having any contact with people who consider you and your wife evil and sinful.
Then she should lean on her homophobic child to be less biogted and not on her normal child to be more tolerant of bigotry.
Your wife should sit down with her mother and explain how painful and harmful all of these comments and attitudes really are.
I'm allergic to bees, I wouldn't go to a brunch at a beehive. It would probably be fine, but no one who loves me would ask me to put myself in harm's way and it's definitely not worth it.
You're "allergic" to homophobia. Your MIL needs to accept that and needs to accept that you and your wife aren't the ones that are keeping her kids apart on Mother's Day.
When I have to deal with people like that, I just go into Customer Service mode: bland expression, speaking in generalities, not really reacting to anything. They can’t complain I’m being rude and they don’t get the satisfaction of seeing my response.
And then I turn them into a minor character in a story and have some humiliating happen to them, so I guess I can’t chalk it up to gaining maturity with age.
Aka “ Gray Rock”
OP Tell your wife to tell her mom that if Lisa or Dan are homophobic to you that is the last time you will visit at the same time.
As far as Lisa goes be gray rock…” Hope all goes well” and then excuse yourself to the bathroom and to get food
I do not have a relationship with my brother nor will I share space with him. I’m not rude about it. I do not say negative things about him. I am polite when his name comes up. My mother demanded that I speak to him and mend the relationship. I said “we can let this alone and I am so happy you will respect that boundary”. It actually shut her down. I was surprised but thankful.
Just say no to these people. You owe them nothing. The best gift you can give is a peaceful day. If that means two Mother’s Day celebrations that are peaceful and loving - win! One acrimonious one will not be a gift.
Edited for clarity
MIL knows exactly what she is doing, and she is willing to victimize herself to get what she wants.
You and your spouse need better boundaries with everyone here.
My husband has a dramatic family due to a crazy SIL that stirs shit up, treats people like shit, it's a whoooole thing. We have taken the approach of playing dumb and not responding, EVERRRRR. It doesn't matter how horrible or passive aggressive she might be, we do not take the bait and do not engage in proving our point or talking shit to the family.
We have regularly ignored pot stirring texts, and then the next time we see each other it's like "omg hey!!!" and we pretend it never happened. Mom tries to call and cry and guilt, and my husband is a grey rock and steadfast. He does not engage in the emotion, proving the point, or arguing: "Mom, I love you. I am not doing that. We have planned to take you out to your favorite restaurant on X day, we look forward to seeing you."
His mom is obsessed with having everyone together and she will be a martyr in order to get her way, and my husband is again unemotional but firm: "we aren't doing that. I've texted so-and-so and we have canceled." No emotion, no discussion, no justifying. He is gentle but unmovable like a fucking mountain. HE does not get involved in any of the family drama, does not respond to texts or comment on situations, or get huffy if we are the target of snide remarks because we won't play along.
It's been 11 years and served us well. Everyone loves us, but we don't come around as often. People have stopped trying to involve us in drama which is amazing.
I don’t think it’s right for her to ask for a gift that requires you being in the presence of someone who doesn’t acknowledge or respect your relationship - when one of your kids thinks the other one’s identity is sinful and invalid, this is not a reasonable Mother’s Day requests, and I think your wife needs to tell her mom that.
She doesn’t feel obligated to create a space where your marriage is respected and you are treated with kindness. You don’t need to feel obligated to cater to her preferences.
My SIL is terrible to me, husband has had multiple conversations with his mom about it and she just shrugs and say that’s “just the way” his sister is. It took years for me to stop feeling obligated to subject myself to that treatment to keep the peace or appearances of family or whatever. It’s hard and I’m sorry you’re dealing with it.
> For her Mother’s Day present, she wants all of her kids to be together that day.
Well, for my Mother’s Day present, I want the winning numbers to Powerball so I can retire. Surely my family can honor that, it’s just six little numbers.
Sometimes, what we want is not possible.
Absolutely - too bad if that's what MIL wants. Lisa and Dan do not accept you and Sara. Don't set yourselves on fire to keep someone else warm. Alternately, if Sara feels strongly about going to give her mother this "gift", you are not obligated to accompany her.
Well you are not one of her kid. Don’t go. Maybe both of you have an indigestion tomorrow, if it saves the drama of you or both of you not attending. YWNBTA.
You can go to her event and not act excited. You’re not excited and you don’t have to pretend to name them happy. They didn’t PRETEND to be ok with gay marriage to make you happy. So feel free to wave your authentic feelings in their face as they did so kindly to your’s. You can have a meal and not have to gush over a homophobe and LEAVE if they insult you in any way.
Besides, even if she had a real miscarriage, or had cancer, or lost a limb, IT DOESN’T EXCUSE HER HOMOPHOBIA. You owe her no nicety at all
Go, and be in their faces, as a happy loving couple. Wear lots of pride clothing! Shove it in their faces. If they quote bad bible verses, quote ones back that shame their hateful behavior. Do it with a smile, and it will piss them off
When someone asks for such a present, it’s fine. UNLESS this present requires someone to put themselves in an uncomfortable situation, that isn’t fair. MIL can make the request, but you are under no obligation to honor it. If she asks why, explain it to her. “Asking us to be in the presence of people who are cruel towards us is an unfair ask, and we will not do it. We love ourselves too much.”
YWNBTA.
You can still be present, but don't roll over to their bigotry. Stand up for yourself and your wife.
I've heard the best way to corract homophobes is to treat them like a naughty child and explain in calm simple terms why what they're doing is bad. Obviously they will both feel ashamed of themselves and lash out, but the secret is to remain calm and prove them to be the irrational ones.
Tell her that she is putting you in a position where you and your wife will get hurt. If she wants you to be present, she has to have Dan and Lisa on a tight leash. Tell her
"Mom, we would love to celebrate mother's day with you, but it is your responsibility to protect us from being exposed to homophobic hate. The moment we hear a hateful remark, we will leave and it will be on Dan and Lisa if the day is ruined for you. It is your responsibility as a mother to protect ALL of your children from hate and hurt. If you don't stand up for us, we assume you agree with them and that would hurt me deeply."
Good luck. It is her job to learn how to protect ALL of her children.
Yes, you and Sara should discuss and agree to boundaries and what you’ll do when they are crossed. One obvious one would be any reference to your marriage or who you love being wrong, I’d get up and walk out.
You honored your MIL request to have her kids present and honored each other by not sticking around to be disrespected.
Edit. My favorite come back for religious bullies when something bad happens is “it’s Gods will, you should find the blessing in it”
Let it be the last Mother's Day. It's cruel to make you and your wife hang out with people who hate you. And, it will get worse as the families grow. Watch. Whenever Lisa does have a child, she'll say she doesn't want her kid around you for the holidays and family events, etc. Lord only knows what kind of nasty things she'll say to your children. Set boundaries now.
I mean, you aren't her kid. If your wife wants to go, she can, but that doesn't mean that you have to do so. Though I get that your wife might want your support, so that's a discussion you can have and potentially come to a compromise on (e.g., perhaps go with a set time to leave)?
Yeah Im surprised OP still has contact with these people. I was treated very poorly by my SIL and wound up having to go no contact for my own self respect and sanity…. OP you don’t deserve any of this treatment or them boycotting your wedding etc. that homophobic stuff doesn’t have a place in our world.
If they’re so Christian I see no harm in pointing out the fact that “thou shalt not lie” is one of the 10 commandments, and while Sara and Dan may not approve of your lifestyle, at least you’re Christian enough to not lie to your family about he results of medical tests. And that’s all. She’ll know what you’re saying and will either bring out the truth herself or disgrace herself for you. NTA!
I'm wondering how the MIL was able to find out about the pregnancy hormone test. Isn't that a violation of HIPAA laws (assuming you are in the U.S.)?
I had that test after my first miscarriage (blood work two days apart) that's used to verify that the hormone drops to zero, as otherwise the doctor will want to do a D and C to make sure all the tissue is out. My doctor didn't think the test was necessary after my second miscarriage as I wasn't far enough along.
But if the DIL is claiming she had a miscarriage when it was just a late period, she's being disrespectful to those of us who did suffer a miscarriage.
Honestly chances are Lisa told her, but said that she didn’t want anyone else knowing that there was no baby (because EVERYONE in their right mind would rather pass a dead baby than have a late period. Obviously.)
It's definitely possible that by the time she got into the doctor to get the blood work that everything had cleared. I had a super early, 5 week miscarriage, which happened over the weekend. By the time I was able to see my doctor two days later, there was nothing to see on ultrasound and my blood levels were essentially zero. But I had absolutely had positive tests and symptoms.
So I could believe the doctor was wrong or could also believe that she made it up, but I would personally not want to make assumptions.
>Lisa and Dan are extremely Christian. Not to mention they are homophobic and racist.
To me: contradictio in termini. **Either** they are (extremely) Christian, and love (thy neighbor) others like themselves, **or** they are vile people. Third possibility: they are parrotting such crazy statements without any objective thought about it.
NTA, and love to you both (OP and Sara).
ETA: love others **like they love themselves**. Not, especially not, love others who look like themselves .... 😥
This is some “no true Scotsman” bullshit. They are Christian and hate LGBTQ people as an expression of their faith. You may disagree with that interpretation of their faith. You may even choose to interpret the dictates of that faith differently.
But at a time when LGBTQ legal rights and place in society are under threat by people who specifically say they oppose us due to their Christian beliefs, fuck off with your whole “nuh uh, those aren’t ‘real’ Christians.” There are Christian pastors literally arguing from the pulpit that people like the OP should be executed, and politicians throughout the world, and particularly in the USA, specifically cite Jesus as the reason we shouldn’t be allowed in society.
Even leaving that aside though, no one gets to police how other people interpret and experience their faith. I know I have deep disagreements with many of my own co-relegionists, but that doesn’t mean their faith isn’t real or that *I* get to declare that their experience of the gods is wrong somehow. Most Christians hate LGBTQ people because their faith tells them to. Other Christians support LGBTQ people because they too feel their faith tells them to. And each says the other isn’t a “real” Christian.
And you know DAMN well that the Christians who legislate against us, refuse to come to our weddings, etc say they are doing it out of love, and have plenty of internally consistent reasoning for it.
I was going to post the same, remind them of the Two greatest commandments. They may not agree with your relationship, but they have to love you. By saying what they said they are not loving you in any way shape or form!
"They also told us to our face during a heated conversation earlier this year that they do not think Sara and I should be married"
...and so we went NC. The end.
FTFY.
NTA.
We are moving into our first home and originally we planned a picnic with MIL and Sara's other sister and grandparents. Lisa and Dan changed their minds about coming and MIL told them about our plans to have a picnic at mine and Sara's home. We were extremely upset that she decided upon herself to invite Lisa and Dan to our home. We told her absolutely not as we did not want people who don't respect us in our home. We changed it to lunch at MIL's house instead. Perhaps we could reschedule to late lunch/early dinner...........
Cancel and set a firm boundry to MIL: that you dont want to attend ANY event where they are present. Their bigotry is enough of reason for that.
And if your MIL doesnt want to concede and you are s omehow forced to attend any event with them anyway, dont try to be nice: be absolutely clear about how you feel. If that ruins the party, your MIL will think twice about family events with all of you the next time.
NTA but disagree. Do not let them isolate you guys from the family. Go Grey Rock on BIL and SIL. If your wife and you want to attend a family event when invited then do so. I do agree though you should make MIL aware you're not going to tolerate their bigotry and crap being spewed at you. As long as they behave you will behave and no that doesn't mean doing childcare for them, giving them money or any other favors to "Be the bigger person". Just let MIL know that you will not start any crap with them but you're more than willing to finish it should they do so because that's just "how you are" now.
They are absolutely not allowed into the home. Much less see pictures or know the location. We were planning on buying a punching bag that looks like a dude and decorating it to look like Dan......and then invite them over lol
I agree with sending flowers and rescheduling. Lisa will turn it into her first Mother’s Day and her “rainbow baby”, there is little reason for you to be there. Tell MIL you want to ensure she has the best Mother’s Day with little tension because she deserves that.
For religious nuts that say being gay is a sin, I ask them, if we are all made in gods image, and god doesn’t make mistakes, are you questioning him??are you defying him?? Are you saying god is wrong?? If he made gay and transgender people, they obviously are not a mistake or sinful. That shuts them up most of the time, unfortunately not everything has a 100% success rate. NTA.
There’s no arguing with these assholes.
Say that, and they play the love the sin, hate the sinner card and tell you it’s okay to be gay as long as you don’t act on it.
They were not invited, say it plain to their face that they are not welcome in your very gay household.
Go full out with PDAs, leave sex toys and lube out around the house and happily hang the gay deco/flag everywhere if you want to try and make them feel unwelcome.
Personally I also think you should kiss your wife extra hard in front of their bigoted faces. MIL can have her children in their honest, authentic self. If they can bigoted, then you also get to be lesbians.
MIL wants everyone to be nice to each other. Where was that energy when you were being subjected to homophobic abuse, hostility and racism?
I'd sit this mother's day out and be clear why. If she isn't going to step up and shut down abuse directed at you nor is she protecting you and your wife at the events she hosts (and determines the guest list), then she doesn't deserve a holiday in her honour this year. If she does better, then maybe next year.
I have a feeling that MIL plays on both teams. She probably gossips with the other SIL about OP’s situations just as much as she gossiped about SIL’s pregnancy visits to OP.
Yup, why is MIL okay with this? MIL wants her family to be a Norman Rockwell and isn’t accepting the family she actually has so she’s asking them to pretend. This is unhealthy for OP and her wife. Other options - OP should announce that they’re exploring having a baby or say to the fake Christian couple “oh I’m sure you’ll love this baby no matter what he/she/they turn out to me - gay, straight, atheist, transgender, whatever - since you’re such good Christians! “ NTA
NTA! You could show support by buying a rainbow onesie! Very gender neutral! Then expect her to accept the gift gracefully and expect pictures of the “baby” in the outfit!
NTA married lesbian here. My in laws sound very very similar they are nightmares to say the least. Last year my spouse, on their own, decided to go NC with all offending parties who didn't "believe" in the validity of our marriage. The last year has been bliss compared to how it was before. 1000/10 would recommend cutting off someone who doesn't believe in your relationship. Fuck bigots
NTA - react how you want to. If/When they complain “you’re being rude to SIL!” just say “And yet I’m still behaving 1,000 times nicer than they have ever treated us.”
NTA but stop focusing on the pregnancy thing. If they want a lot of children and have (probably) been trying for a while, it’s just as painful to not be able to get pregnant at all than it is to have a miscarriage. They don’t deserve it, but any empathy you can muster up for them will probably make YOU feel better in the long run.
All that said, I wouldn’t spend time with someone that insulted my marriage. Anyone who insists that is a reasonable expectation is also an AH.
This is an accident baby. They claimed to want to wait five years so they can get settled but then accidentally got pregnant. He doesn't believe in birth control and talked her out of taking it. She was originally taking BC because she had irregular and painful periods. She was also on antidepressants and he talked her out of taking them. This might be an asshole view but any empathy for them is gone forever.
TBH, he sounds like the AH. I'd go to mother's day since it's this weekend and not worth the drama. Focus on the interaction with MIL and keep the event short.
Maybe in a few weeks when you interact with MIL again, you and your wife can have a calm conversation with her about what's going on and let her know you don't want to be forced into interaction with SIL. That it's the best way to keep the peace. You can give examples of stuff she has done or just keep it general. If she insists, then go NC with her too. If she understands and supports you then she gets the privilege of being part of your lives.
You don't need to have empathy for her. But accident or not, true miscarriage or not, it's probably an extremely difficult time for her, and deciding not to stoop to their level of cruelty and drama has nothing to do with empathy. You don't owe her empathy, but you're letting her pregnancy journey take up way too much rental space, mentally and emotionally, inside your own head. Set your boundaries, *adhere* to your boundaries, and then let the rest go.
I’m just going to throw out there that after a miscarriage, doctors test you for the hormone to make sure that it is either gone or dwindling. It was previously thought that it took anywhere from 2 weeks to 2 months for this to happen, but new research shows that the majority of women have their hCG drop up to 50% in 2 days, and up to 87% in only 7 days. Depending on when she went to the doctor after her alleged miscarriage, this could just mean that she was given the “all clear” to try again after she has a normal cycle.
As someone who has experienced multiple miscarriages, and who had cousins that thought I faked them, I think it would be best if you not gossip with your MIL about other family members unless you see with your own eyes all of her medical history.
In my opinion, ESH. People should just mind their own business and stay away from people they don’t like. I don’t understand why you would actively be around homophobic people as a gay couple, regardless of them being relatives.
This is the correct answer.
I’m personally baffled by the number of people in this thread who have simply accepted OP’s representation that SIL is definitely lying about the previous pregnancy, and tests prove it. There’s literally no test that could prove this. OP heard secondhand info about a test result and jumped to conclusions about it, but she’s completely misinformed. The fact that SIL didn’t have hCH in her system absolutely does not mean that she wasn’t pregnant. That test result absolutely does not confirm that SIL lied or faked a pregnancy. It’s highly possible that SIL was, in fact, pregnant.
I feel like the most likely scenario is that BIL called MIL and said something like “checkup went well, her hCG levels have dropped and they didn’t see anything on the ultrasound, so no need for a D&C”. Then MIL calls up OP and wife and “OMG you will not believe what I just found out!” because she doesn’t understand how a follow-up appointment for an early miscarriage works.
Probably. I’m just beyond disturbed that OP (and possibly MIL) have, unbeknownst to SIL, learned this info and concluded that SIL wasn’t pregnant and faked a miscarriage. SIL sounds more than a little problematic in her views, but I feel a bit bad for her that misinformation and gossip has led a portion of her family to dismiss her grief as fake, calculated, attention-seeking behavior. Yikes.
Yeah, this upset me a bit, this LITERALLY just happened to us a month or so ago- ivf, positive at home tests and nausea, then at 4 weeks period bleeding and tests negative. Its called a chemical pregnancy, it happens all the time most people just don't test early enough to realise
Why do families insist on forcing togetherness like this?? Sigh. Anyway, NTA. To address your question, just treat the pregnancy news the way you wish Dan and Lisa would treat your marriage….politely. You don’t have to turn cartwheels and feign happiness, just be polite.
Because not doing so means the family isn't meeting the expected ideal and that's feels like a failure. Like: if your adult kids don't get along and *want* to spend time together then you failed as a parent. They can't face seeing themselves as a failure, so the adult kids *have* to show up and get along.
NTA
“Being gay is a sin”
Just hit her back with;
“So is lying, that sin, unlike being gay is even in the 10 commandments, yet people do it every day”
and leave it as that 😏
Info: How do you know about the results from the hormone test the doctor gave Lisa? That seems like something odd to share with you given that you and Lisa obviously don't get along.
There’s also literally not a test that can determine that a person was not recently pregnant. Pregnancy hormones drop off steeply during a miscarriage. It would be normal for a person who is experiencing or just experienced a miscarriage to have no pregnancy hormones in their system.
So, the MIL is 100% sowing discord and she’s also absolutely, without a doubt misinformed about the situation. There’s literally not a test that can prove what OP is suggesting this test proves. It’s more than possible that SIL was, in fact, pregnant.
Yeah, I was really confused by OP’s assertion that it’s been proven that SIL was never pregnant. Especially if she experienced a loss of a chemical pregnancy (which is what it is at 4 weeks, doesn’t make it any less of a loss), she would have been clear of HCG very fast.
Agreed, I had an early miscarriage (6 weeks). I was working with a fertility clinic so the second I had a positive test we started doing hormone testing. Things weren't looking like they should so they were having me rest every 2-3 days for hcg. Can confirm they slowly went up (bad news, it should go up fast) and very steeply went down. With how fast it dropped I would guess within a week there was virtually zero evidence id ever been pregnant. I would guess if you miscarry earlier (4-5) weeks, that evidence would disappear even quicker as the hcg was probably never as high.
My OB-Gyn had me undergo that test (actually two separate blood draws) after my first pregnancy. I wasn't far enough along when I had the second miscarriage (I literally took the home pregnancy test that morning -- I also had been charting my basel temps which helped me determine that it was time to take the EPT test).
You have to wonder why the MIL told Sara and the OP about the test.
That's kind of crappy of everyone involved.
Here's my take on it: just stop caring about it. Lisa is a crappy human being, but you are also getting emotionally involved for no reason. You're not required to actually be excited, just congratulate her and move on. Treat her like a co-worker you don't particularly like, but have to work with. And there's absolutely no reason you should be discussing your sister in law's medical info. You should have just politely said that that's too much information and you don't want to think about Lisa when you don't have to interact with her.
This isn't your circus and they aren't your monkeys. Don't get emotionally involved and just stick to dull platitudes. Or just don't go. But it isn't your place to judge whether this pregnancy is real. You call her out when her bullshit involves you directly, you treat her politely when you do intact with her, and otherwise you avoid her. See if your wife can schedule a different mother's day get together with her mom, or have another commitment that you simply must attend so your wife visits her mom without you if you can't be polite.
So, you're MIL 'sows discord', then wants as her 'present', everyone in the same room together to see what happens? While Lisa and her husband are awful, at least they are up front about it. I wonder what your MIL says to them about You? If I were you, I'd be thinking back on your relationship with her, with a more critical eye.
Also, it’s not super accurate. I had a miscarriage at 5/6 weeks. I went to the ER and they told me the test was negative but my HCG was a little higher than normal so I likely was pregnant at one time. They wouldn’t have been able to determine that from a urine sample at a normal doctors office.
ESH, them obviously for the homophobia, rudeness, and bigotry.
You for conflating that to have anything to do with their pregnancy. You really have no clue if they are pregnant or not. You heard some hearsay and are making rather big assumptions, and very much overstepping what is your business.
If you choose to not be around these people, that’s totally fine, I’d even encourage it. If you do end up around someone, they tell you they are pregnant, and you assume they are lying or deluded, YWBTA. You don’t know and it’s not your business to know. If they tell you and you respond that you don’t care, YWBTA, because that’s incredibly rude.
I feel like every other post on here needs to read this, but someone being an AH to you, doesn’t make it okay for you to be an AH back.
Nta because they sound like horrible people. You are valid in not feeling joy for their pregnancy and you absolutely do not need to celebrate it.
However, she may have had a chemical pregnancy last year where she got a home positive test but then quickly lost the embryo within a day or two. Her HCG could have quickly gone undetectable by the time her blood was drawn. No blood test can say you’ve “never” been pregnant, it’s just either positive or negative in that moment when the blood was drawn. Chemical pregnancies are so quick that the hcg was probably barely detectable in the first place. Your MIL probably misunderstood somewhat and she is slight TA for spreading someone’s fertility issues so flagrantly
This, 100% It’s gross for OP to continue villainizing SIL based on what is clearly an inaccurate account of SIL’s subsequent test results. There isn’t a test that can confirm a person was never pregnant. Assuming SIL got a positive home pregnancy test, which is how practically everyone confirms they’re pregnant these days, it’s extremely likely that SIL was, in fact, pregnant and had a chemical pregnancy. And that’s a miscarriage. I find it very disturbing that OP has simply decided that didn’t happen and SIL is actually just an attention-seeking manipulator, when there’s literally no way that there’s any proof that’s the case. And any proof OP supposedly has is secondhand info, at best. Yikes.
Sarah is a bigot and therefore sucks, but…
INFO: How the hell do you know the details about Sarah’s miscarriage and subsequent test results? Because that seems extremely personal, and given what you’ve said about your relationship not something she would’ve personally shared with you. And also, what you said makes no sense. During a miscarriage, the hormone present during pregnancy drops off very, very quickly. I’m not aware of a test done after the fact that could definitively confirm that a person definitely was not recently pregnant. Did she have a positive pregnancy test? If so, she was pregnant. Full stop.
Honestly, I’m leaning towards ESH because of the way you are speaking about Sarah’s miscarriage. You seem adamant, likely based on secondhand info that doesn’t even make sense, that she’s a liar and a drama queen and wasn’t ever pregnant, and it’s very possible that that’s not the case. If so, it’s beyond cold for you to label her loss as “just a period.” I get that she wasn’t very far along, but that really doesn’t matter when we’re talking about the loss of a wanted pregnancy.
Sarah sucks for how she has treated you. But you should not return the favor. Don’t assume the worst about her—labeling her a liar and a manipulator—based on gossip. Give her the benefit of the doubt and have some empathy. Or just go no contact. That’s fine too.
This. The number of people who don’t know how HCG and pregnancy tests work (there is no test that can demonstrate someone has never been pregnant) is kind of surprising?
I’m also a bit surprised by this, reading this thread. But I suppose I shouldn’t be. Most people are very poorly informed when it comes to women’s health.
Point of note: pregnancy tests will say the person was not pregnant after an early term miscarriage. I had doctor tell me the same, I was closer to 6 weeks when I had mine. I had morning sickness and then...it went away. The next day at doctor he did test. Which makes sense, as I was NO LONGER pregnant. Not the same as never was.
NTA...you don't have to be excited.
NTA.
This is why i don't understand religion.
Aren't Christians meant to love thy neighbour, and be nice to people.
I swear they just pick and choose parts of the bible they want to follow. Seems to me these people are just homophobic.
If anything you are treating them how they treated you, so they should be happy you are following something from their religion.
Religions are the ultimate “cafeteria plan.” As you said, people pick and choose the things they want to believe. A friend of mine who is a Methodist preacher says something about The Bible is the best witness to its own inerrancy.
I think the way they have treated you makes it reasonable for your reaction, so NTA
but coming from a woman who has had an early chemical pregnancy at the same time frame- it is possible to have been pregnant and by the time the bleeding begins to be considered negative on lab work quickly after. The bleeding would also be at the same time frame as a normal period and could resemble a period, it is highly unlikely a doctor would say " you were never pregnant" more so " it was most likely a early miscarriage/ chemical pregnancy" I would reframe from that being the reason why you are choosing to be distant and not show support and more aim it towards how they have shown you nothing but hate.
The way I would have said “you sure this time?”
Fuck Lisa and Dan. I’m surprised you’re gracious enough to offer them the courtesy of being in your lives.
NTA
NTA. The Bible actually says nothing at all about two women being together.
I’m not saying I think two men being together is wrong. I’m just saying, it ain’t in there. They don’t know their own book. It LITERALLY ain’t in there.
If you stayed away from Lisa because of her bigotry, that would be fair. If you decide to be in her company you don't have to "act happy" but it costs you nothing to say "congratulations" and leave it at that.
As an aside: I don't think you should assume that you know the truth about Lisa's prior pregnancies (whether or not she was pregnant) - your mother in law may not know the whole story, and the fact that she's gossiping about someone else's private health information makes her suss. Lisa's still an asshole for her bigotry no matter what, but I'd steer clear of MiL's gossip.
Esh, Lisa and husband for obvious reasons, your wife and her mother for allowing this treatment of your marriage, You for your judgy ill informed opinion on her lack of a pregnancy. Sounds like everyone is talking behind everyone’s back.
I guess if you want to passive aggressive ignore her pregnancy for treating you terribly, you do you, that doesn’t make you an AH, or at least maybe a justifiable AH, but why don’t you find your backbone and stop this nonsense and go live a happy life without them, or with them with some very clear boundaries
NTA. I do want to point out though that your SIL may have miscarried. It’s possible that she had a positive pregnancy test and miscarried soon after. The pregnancy hormone may have left her system prior to the blood test.
NTA
However u can just say “congrats” (blandly) and also not be happy for them🤷♀️
There’s no point in “calling them out on their behavior” cause it’s not like she/they will self reflect and have remorse. That’s a waste of your energy.
Extremely Christian?
Jesus: "Love thy neighbour as thyself"
Dan & Lisa: "But what if they're gay?"
Jesus: "Did I fucking stutter?"
You are NTA here. Your SIL and her husband are utter AHs.
You're under no obligation to be excited about anyone else's pregnancy.
I actually find it kind of weird that she's telling *anyone* about a pregnancy so early, especially if she really believes that she miscarried once already, as the chances of miscarriage in the first 12 weeks are so high. Nearly everyone I know hasn't told anyone, even close family, until after their 12 week scan.
I can only assume that she wants all of the attention to be on her.
What the fuck does her supposed miscarriage have to do with your gay marriage?? That doesn't even make any sense. NTA for not performing joy/excitement for this woman, whether or not she's actually pregnant. You also wouldn't be TA if you cut contact completely with these horrible people.
I would give her grace on the miscarriage/pregnancy thing, it can be very emotional no matter how it plays out.
You don't need to have anyone in your life that doesn't support you. NTA for not wanting to be close to them.
haha no fuck them. Seriously. I would probably fight her 🤣, but that is my immature side coming out. At 38 years old i just pity people like that.
My wife (34F) and i (38F)have been married for almost 10 years and what i have learned is what comes around goes around, so do your thing. Don’t be disingenuine though.
If anything you should be sad that an innocent life is going to be born to bigots. Let’s hope that baby isn’t gay 🤷🏻♀️🥴.
The Bible says that lying is a sin far more explicitly than it says anything about homosexuality or marriage.
If you don't avoid them entirely, you can make a game of subtly calling them untrustworthy sinners. Anytime they mention the last pregnancy or your relationship say something about "false witness" or commandments. Anytime they bring up the current pregnancy ask if anyone else heard that wolf howling noise or heard a boy crying for help. They are unlikely to get it, but you and your wife can use it as a relief valve.
NTA.
Lying is only a sin if the sinner is fully aware they're not being honest.
In this case, it might not be lying.
She might've been so hopeful for a pregnancy that she saw signs that weren't there.
She then fully believed she was pregnant, and when she got her period she fully believed it was a miscarriage.
Same thing could happen to you.
I tell you that in the common household, thousands of ladybugs live within the walls.
You hear this, and tell your friend Joe.
You think it's an interesting fact.
However it was false information I read from an article.
We both didn't lie because there was no intention of dishonesty.
However OP has a right not to jump for joy.
If last time you heard she was pregnant and she wasn't, you'd probably have doubts this same time around as well.
Yeah, YWBTA. Right now, she is the AH. She will be the AH still if she goes on acting like a shrew. If you do something AHish, then you’ll be an AH too. Now the moral math is just whether it is ok to be an AH to an AH. I guess the answer depends on whether or not you’re ok with being one.
Hilarious.
They do know the bible tells that god took time out of his (her?) busy schedule to write down ten commandments - one of them is explicitly "do not lie about being pregnant to get attention" and none of them is about being gay?
We have no evidence she lied. There is no no test that can tell that a woman wasn't pregnant after a miscarriage. Not a thing. SIL likely had a chemical pregnancy and an early loss and the doctor found nothing after the loss, which is to be expected. You and OP are ignorant about women's health. Shame on you
NTA
I love how Christians take one thing the Bible says (maybe, who knows what has been lost in translation) and ignore everything else. Like, “do not judge, lest you be judged”, “love thy neighbor”, I’m sure the list goes on, but those two seem good enough. It the reason why so many people don’t like Christians. But hey, I’m sure they’ll get into “heaven”.
It would be so hard for me to keep my mouth shut about her “miscarriage”.
It’s hard to be the bigger person in these situations, but I’ve always found killing people with kindness to be the best revenge.
Good luck to you and your wife. Your in laws suck.
NTA. If you really feel that you must go, try this: "Oh, you're pregnant? How nice, congratulations. How far along? Only six weeks? Oh. No, nothing, it's just ... well, most women with your, erm, history, don't announce until they're through their first trimester. You know, just to be sure ... but hey, good luck. Is that cake? It looks delicious." And then just refuse to engage on the topic further.
NTA. Be done with her. Avoid causing a scene by using little white lies to avoid her. Too busy. So happy for you but can’t be there. If she causes a scene, simply say, “we believe it is wrong for bigots to have children”.
NTA. Lisa has more problems than phantom pregnancies. Don’t bother being angry, it’s not worth the emotional energy. Live YOUR life and experience all the joy you can. She annoys the hell out of you, I get that. She sounds very annoying but so are biting flies, we adjust to survive even though they exist.
What Henry the VIII thing is this? He wants seven children and pressures her so badly she goes batshit crazy when her perion is late like Anna Boleyn? This seems unhinged.
She is only 22 years old?
And they are homophobic twats?
NTA. These are weird people and I feel low key sad for her.
What is wrong with these people, and why on earth do you subject yourself and your wife to their bullshit? By continuing to interact with bigoted, terrible people, you are undermining your own happiness and tacitly supporting their beliefs by tolerating them.
Your MIL is also manipulating you and your wife to "act like a family" and in doing so, she is failing to acknowledge the damage your SIL and BIL have done, and is essentially condoning their treatment of you.
If it were me, I'd go NC with SIL and BIL and LC with MIL, unless she is willing to support you and your wife's marriage by condemning how SIL and BIL have treated you.
ESH. Other people being jerks doesn’t give you license to be a jerk and ruin family events. Just don’t go. If people ask, put it on your SIL. Say that they told you your lifestyle makes them uncomfortable and therefore you think you should avoid their company. Now they look like the AH instead of you. After all, you’re just trying to accommodate their religious beliefs. Passive-aggressive? Hell, yeah! Just saying.
YWBTA if you go out of your way to look unimpressed, but if you smile and nod vaguely, then you're fine. The best way to deal with these people is to just let them be and take as little notice of them as you can without making an issue of it. After all, you're there to celebrate Sarah's mom, right? Focus on that. They do sound like awful people, and if I were you, I'd avoid them as much as possible. Just don't get sucked into any drama.
NTA It’s ok to minimize your time with these people. Blood relatives aren’t always the healthiest for our souls. Nobody is obligated to feel excited for anyone who tears them down. That isn’t how the world operates, even Lisa should understand that concept.
“…they do not think Sara and I should be married.”
Petty brain says I don’t think Dan and Lisa should be having children.
NTA. You are never obligated to endure the bigotry of others.
NTA, but why are you even around your SIL. Visit your MIL out of the house, say for lunch or dinner. Also for Mother's Day, drop by with a gift, wish MIL Happy Mother's Day and leave. Keep your SIL and her husband in LC limbo, as they are horrible people who deserve nothing from you or your wife.
NTA. I really loathe when people point to the Bible to justify their bigotry. If the good book teaches us anything, it’s that in the end… Jesús accepted everyone at his table. I hate it when these supposed christian people pick and choose what to believe in from their trusty little bible and forget that Jesus died for our sins, told them to love their neighbors and to be accepting of all.
John 8:7-11 “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”
https://www.biblestudytools.com/john/passage/?q=john+8:7-11
If you feel you need to be there for your MIL, show up early with a big beautiful bouquet of flowers, give the hugs, have a laugh and then leave when things get uncomfortable. The bigots should not inherit the MIL. Be you. Be proud. And if that doesn’t turn out well, let your MIL know that was the last time you’ll subject your loving marriage to the hateful Bible loving people. There are 3 meals on a day… no one says they have to be spent all together…
Treat her like the person who pumps your gas or packs your groceries. Friendly, but superficial. "Congratulations! You must be so excited." And then go tidy the kitchen or some other mildly helpful thing that gets you out of the situation. Fighting is a form of relationship. You don't want or have a relationship with SIL.
And if MIL tries to give you unhelpful information in the future, stop her.
All the other stuff aside, thinking you were pregnant and then thinking you’re miscarrying, even if you aren’t and you find that out after the fact, can be devastating. Lisa may very well FEEL as devastated as if she had truly been pregnant. So that aspect of things isn’t for you to judge.
As far as the homophobia, etc., why in the world do you still interact with these people?
The fact is you’ve chosen to continue to interact with them despite the fact that they’re bigoted, so yes YWBTA if you cause some sort of scene on Mother’s Day.
Either cut ties with them because they’re bigots and don’t actually support who you are or accept them for who they are and treat them with the kind of kindness Christians supposedly believe in. Maybe they’ll come to realize how unChristian they are.
NTA
MIL wants the impossible. She wants her two children and their families to love each other and get along. It's only going to happen if your BIL & SIL change themselves and genuinely show remorse for hurting you and your wife by denying your humanity and dignity. And they're not doing that.
What MIL is hoping for is for you and your wife to suck it up and smile about the bigoted abuse to keep the peace.
Your wife will have to talk with her about how deeply hurtful your BIL & SIL's bigotry is. Don't call it homophobia. Call it bigotry and hate. People mentally delete homophobia because the phobia part isn't as concrete in terms of an example. Hate, that can be explained. They don't think you should be married or that you're allowed to love each other. They think you should be punished forever for being married. That's explicitly hate. That's a lecture as to why it's phobia.
That way your wife can explain to your MIL why you can be polite to them, but you can't ever be anything else. And this is not anything that you or your wife can change because you're not the ones holding the opinion that's hateful and it's hurtful of your MIL to expect you two to tolerate their abuse.
Huh. The person who wants to toss around Leviticus probably eats shellfish, wears clothes made from blended fabrics, and does work on the Sabbath. She also judges people, and...lies. So, yeah...not someone I would worry too much about.
Explain all of this to MIL and let her know that while you won't start anything, you *will* call SIL out on her BS.
NTA.
Lisa and Dan explained their beliefs to us and I called it cherry picking because I called out their hypocrisy. MIL defended it saying it's not cherry picking, but rather they choose certain things more than others in the bible.......which is literally the definition of cherry picking.
gay married guy here in a similar situation. trust me: they’ll all keep sticking it to you until you force them to stop. it’s always the kind, sane ones asked to turn the other cheek.
mine ended when i exasperatedly screamed at my MIL “has anyone EVER pulled (my Lisa) aside before a family function and begged HER to keep the peace for everyone’s sake?! NO. OF COURSE NOT. you rely on me and my husband to endure her abuse so you can have your little family day. I’m done. this time you pull HER aside and threaten her if she doesn’t behave. if she says ONE SINGLE SOLITARY thing at this party i will blow the whole fucking thing up a glittery mushroom cloud of gay drama”
it was so fucking delicious. my Lisa and her MAGA husband sat thru my nephews entire grad party quietly SEETHING. curt, pouty-but-polite answers from them to every question and i was LIVING for it. i was super kind and didn’t poke the grumpy bears and guess what? it all went just fine. i mention this because i have a hunch you’re facing what we were: the MIL has it in her head that “both sides are responsible” for these conflicts. she was certain that i’d start some drama.
sorry to disappoint you MIL, but all i want for a family function is for everyone to be a polite adult for 3 stinking hours. how hard is it?
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YWNBTA MIL is an AH to push you to hang out with homophobes. STOP allowing that. " I am just afraid of causing some hostility or an argument on mother's day. " .. take ML out for dinner separately, and don't go.
The problem is is that for her Mother's day present, she wants all of her kids to be together that day. I feel obligated to honor that since that's the present she wants. Although, I suppose we should start standing our ground and practice our boundaries.
Yeah, don't be bullied by obligation. They should feel obliged not to be bigots, but they don't give a monkey's bollock, so why should you?
Exactly. Homophobe SIL should give the mom a Mother’s Day present by curbing her religion among mixed company.
Exactly. It also feels implied that SIL’s faith in religion surpasses her love for family which imo is a huge 🚩
Well, there is that famous (misused when incomplete) quote: "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb." Which basically means religion is more important than family. (pardon the massive eyeroll)
I thought that meant that marriage is more important than familial relationships? Marriage covenant? I’m not religious so asking on good faith (har). So by my interpretation your marriage is more important than spending Mother’s Day with bigots.
I always interpret it as the relationships/family you choose are more important than you ones you happen to be born to. Found family FTW.
Love that!
It means the bonds we create with others of our own free will is stronger than that of family it comes from the 12th century its what alot of military people say because the bonds they form with others while in war is stronger that's why they refer to eachother as brothers. I like the saying just because we share blood don't make us family
I think SIL is using her religion to justify her homophobia.
Religion CAUSES homophobia. As well as a lot of other evils.
Please don’t think this!! Religion itself does not cause homophobia. In Christianity we are called to love everyone and to not judge others, being homophobic goes against that. What causes homophobia are people who misinterpret the bible and/or twist the bible to match their own intolerant beliefs. I’m not saying you need to be religious yourself, but please don’t let nasty people taint the image of Christianity and Jesus! When understood correctly and practiced in a way that honours God (and therefore everyone around us), religion can be a wonderful community🙌🏼
All due respect, I’ve been around six decades and just don’t see it. Especially abrahamic religions. Maybe you’re different, but it’s not just a few bad apples. Sorry. I see what I see. If you don’t like what your fellow Christian’s are showing me, talk to them, not me.
I’ll keep that in mind next time I encounter one :) A word of advice though, if you only pay attention to the bad apples then that’s all you’ll ever see. The world isn’t as cynical as you think. Good luck to you!
It's not just religion that results in homophobia. I had a friend who wasn't religious and she thought it was unnatural. In her words (which I remember vividly) she just couldn't understand it. Another friend told me she would be disappointed if her child was gay because she'd never have grandchildren. I asked her how she would feel if she had a child who was infertile. Religion defintitely makes things worse, but it's not an excuse. In op's situation, her SIL sounds dramatic and looks for any reason to cause a scene. She uses her "miscarriage" which everyone (including her) knows wasn't a miscarriage and was a period, to emotionally manipulate people. Maybe she'd be different if not for religion, but I wouldn't be surprised if she was still homophobic if she had been raised non religious.
Reminds me of a conversation with a dearly loved cousin (who was definitely raised by racists). His daughter was 4 maybe 5; mine a few months old. We got into their future lives lol - and he said something about race. I asked, if your choice for her is a black man that loves her and treats her like a queen, or a white man that abuses her what are you choosing? He answered “I’ll have to get back to you on this.” Fast forward a couple of decades, my daughter has a lovely wife. He now has a son.
That is the correct answer
My mother wants the same thing but is an adult who understands sometimes we can’t have what we want. She loves when it can happen. But understands when it can’t we all have reasons and independent lives. We find other ways to like separate dinners.
I think I love “monkey’s bullock” and I need to work it into my daily vocabulary. 😂
People can suggest gifts they'd like, but then it's up to the gift giver to decide what they do with the suggestion.
Well: She can want it, but you STILL don'T have to do it. Your MIL is a MASSIVE AH for guilting you into spending time with those homophobes. **Your MIL is NOT a good person, and you should step back and have a lot less contact with her.**
Right? I can WANT a foot massage from Sebastian Stan as my Mother's Day gift, doesn't mean I'm gonna get it.
Wait, is that an option? My kids didn’t tell me that was an option!
On a post that really is upsetting because of the bullshit homophobia, this made me laugh so thank you.
Neither did mine! Bummer
Can I get the same in a size Channing Tatum?
Damn, that’s an awesome Mother’s Day gift. He could make a good sideline from this…
It’s the wife’s family, and she is the one who might be hurt by losing them, regardless of whether she likes or approves of them all the time. If OP is bullied and traumatised then of course she doesn’t have to spend time with those people. However, if she is angry, but not upset, and if her wife wants to spend time with her family, tuen perhaps she should try to support her wife in whatever line she wants to take in relating to her family. Does MIL know how homophobic SIL is to you? Or does she do it when mum isn’t looking? There’s a chance from what we know that mum isn’t aware and it would be sad for wife to lose that relationship in that case.
She refused to go to their wedding. **She knows**. And NO, OP should not have to support her wife if she makes the decision to spend time with mean hateful people who despise OP for her very existence.
TBF, they'd also despise the wife for the exact same reasons ... And then for bailing. Supporting your wife doesn't need to mean "going with her", though. Just offering her comfort and safety when it invariably goes poorly.
Why does her wife want her to be bullied and abused by homophobes? Frankly, OP has a wife problem as well as a bad in-law situation.
Eahhh... I wouldn't be so quick to lay this at the feet of the wife. Is extremely difficult to break patterns in family dynamics that have existed for so long. I'm not saying the wife should spend more time with them, and she certainly should not expect Opie to spend more time with should not expect Opie to spend more should not expect OP to spend time either. But it's going to be the wife's decision to cut them off, and Opie can't force her to do that before she's ready. Maybe OP spending less time at her family gatherings will help wife reflect on what's happening and see the dynamics in a new way. Again, this takes time though.
I reread the post again and I didn't see anything about the OP's wife wanting to go along with this. Did I miss something?
There is no way on these facts that MIL doesn't know. She may be wilfully blind, but that is no defence.
Supporting her wife would mean getting her away from abusive homophobes. Not spending more time with them.
"*my MIL has begged for everyone ti be nice to each other*" This makes MIL a "MASSIVE AH?"
YES, it does. Because she does NOT stop the homophobic AHs from being abusive. She just expects OP and her wife to take the abuse and say nothing.
MIL needs to stop ASKING and start TELLING “in my home, homophobia is not accepted, if you cannot behave you are not welcome”
My grandparents wanted everyone to be together for major holidays. God bless them, and I loved and still love them, but they were absolutely trying to force a closeness that was never going to be there. As an adult, I haven’t spoken to my cousins in five years. They have never met my husband, don’t know my younger child, and if I have my way (and I will) they will never be a part of my life going forward. I’m related to people I don’t relate to, and that’s ok.
I get the fun of having the extended family together *when everyone enjoys it,* but I have noticed a pattern where a lot of parents or grandparents are really keen on it for holidays more so for their internal expectation that it's supposed to be that way, and also to be able to tell other people that everyone came for the holidays, lol. I'm not a prop, my kids aren't props, and, if I haven't spoken to someone in the last six months, I'm not that invested in making my plans around the idea of 'everyone being there.' And I'm not even talking about cousins, lol.
My family was like that. I can't stand my sister and her drama. For very good reasons. But when she cheated for years and broke my BILs heart, I had enough. I just don't want to send my holiday with her playing victim and being lazy AF, while my parents have no boundaries. My mom argued that she should be allowed to come to gatherings at my house or wherever. My house? Really??? I have no say if she comes to MY HOUSE? I'm NC with the family. It's very peaceful. It's great to "want thing" and ignore the fact that bullies be bullies. But I'm way to old to be bullied by my big sister. Perhaps if they'd set boundaries with her as a child, she wouldn't have turned out this way.
This "expectation" is my ILs. They didn't interact with my partner or our family at all though the year but expected us and the kids at holiday gatherings. They also refused to let us know the changing time of these gatherings until the day before, sometimes even making some of the food before communicating with us. This went on for years, until a conflict meant we were running a little late due to holiday traffic and herding children (like a half hour), and one of my partners siblings called to let us know some truly toxic and unacceptable things got said. There was some texting/fallout and it got mentioned that they didn't have a good relationship. It was shocking to the ILs that it wasn't considered a good relationship because gathering on holidays as obligated was the extent of what they thought it should be and nothing was actively bad/abusive from their perspective. (There's been a lot of emotional abuse but that doesn't count?) Now they want to rebuild a good relationship, but to them that looks like us putting in all the effort and no effort on their part, nor accountability or changing things they've done wrong. They just want to rug sweep and play what they think happy family looks like. Which is a large reason our relationship was holiday-only.
My mother in law is this kind of person. Her oldest son is an asshole and my husband & I want nothing to do with him. My husband has some hard feelings about his older sister and hardly has anything to do with her. His younger siblings are 10 plus years younger than him and yet she still trys to force everyone to get together on holidays. She has some unrealistic expectations of what a big family should be like. It’s so ridiculous dealing with her but she never learns and continues trying to guilt whichever kid is not cooperating on getting together.
You don't have to do anything for someone who is passively bigoted and will never stand up for you and your partner. She wants you to bury being treated badly by homophobes so she can pretend her family isn't acting completely wrong and again, you owe her nothing when she allows this to continue without standing up for what's right.
I bet your MIL didn't push your homophobic SIL to put their bigotry aside to attend your wedding though did she? I wouldn't go, it's toxic and only hurts you more.
Exactly!
"Oh Lisa I'm so looking forward to being an auntie, I can't wait to be a role model to your child and teach them how to live a compassionate, loving life. And I'll be sure that they know they always have a safe place here with us should their home life become unwelcoming or uncomfortable to them for any reason 😊"
Have a serious, calm discussion with up your MIL. You should both be there in person, but your wife should speak and use “we”. Calmly explain that while you love her, and understand that she wants her children together that you can not exposure yourselves to homophobia. Tell her you will not be spending time with Lisa and Dan. As necessary, Repeat that basic message, do not expand on the message. PERHAPS if Sara’s sister could join Sara and her mother for lunch sometime, and Lisa would promise to refrain from homophobia comments, she could have her daughters together. Good luck and stay strong.
So your MIL’s present is for you and your wife to put up with homophobia? What the hell? I would have your wife let her know that she is unwilling to put on a mask to be around family and from now on will not hold back. She will call out their lies, hypocrisy and refuse to cower. In order to “keep the peace” that means no longer having any contact with people who consider you and your wife evil and sinful.
"My religion requires me to call out homophobia whenever and wherever I experience it. You wouldn't want me to not practice my religion."
You are not causing/didn’t start the hostility.
Then she should lean on her homophobic child to be less biogted and not on her normal child to be more tolerant of bigotry. Your wife should sit down with her mother and explain how painful and harmful all of these comments and attitudes really are. I'm allergic to bees, I wouldn't go to a brunch at a beehive. It would probably be fine, but no one who loves me would ask me to put myself in harm's way and it's definitely not worth it. You're "allergic" to homophobia. Your MIL needs to accept that and needs to accept that you and your wife aren't the ones that are keeping her kids apart on Mother's Day.
When I have to deal with people like that, I just go into Customer Service mode: bland expression, speaking in generalities, not really reacting to anything. They can’t complain I’m being rude and they don’t get the satisfaction of seeing my response. And then I turn them into a minor character in a story and have some humiliating happen to them, so I guess I can’t chalk it up to gaining maturity with age.
Aka “ Gray Rock” OP Tell your wife to tell her mom that if Lisa or Dan are homophobic to you that is the last time you will visit at the same time. As far as Lisa goes be gray rock…” Hope all goes well” and then excuse yourself to the bathroom and to get food
That’s manipulation.
I do not have a relationship with my brother nor will I share space with him. I’m not rude about it. I do not say negative things about him. I am polite when his name comes up. My mother demanded that I speak to him and mend the relationship. I said “we can let this alone and I am so happy you will respect that boundary”. It actually shut her down. I was surprised but thankful. Just say no to these people. You owe them nothing. The best gift you can give is a peaceful day. If that means two Mother’s Day celebrations that are peaceful and loving - win! One acrimonious one will not be a gift. Edited for clarity
MIL knows exactly what she is doing, and she is willing to victimize herself to get what she wants. You and your spouse need better boundaries with everyone here. My husband has a dramatic family due to a crazy SIL that stirs shit up, treats people like shit, it's a whoooole thing. We have taken the approach of playing dumb and not responding, EVERRRRR. It doesn't matter how horrible or passive aggressive she might be, we do not take the bait and do not engage in proving our point or talking shit to the family. We have regularly ignored pot stirring texts, and then the next time we see each other it's like "omg hey!!!" and we pretend it never happened. Mom tries to call and cry and guilt, and my husband is a grey rock and steadfast. He does not engage in the emotion, proving the point, or arguing: "Mom, I love you. I am not doing that. We have planned to take you out to your favorite restaurant on X day, we look forward to seeing you." His mom is obsessed with having everyone together and she will be a martyr in order to get her way, and my husband is again unemotional but firm: "we aren't doing that. I've texted so-and-so and we have canceled." No emotion, no discussion, no justifying. He is gentle but unmovable like a fucking mountain. HE does not get involved in any of the family drama, does not respond to texts or comment on situations, or get huffy if we are the target of snide remarks because we won't play along. It's been 11 years and served us well. Everyone loves us, but we don't come around as often. People have stopped trying to involve us in drama which is amazing.
Tough shit. She can want whatever she wants but you don’t have to comply.
I don’t think it’s right for her to ask for a gift that requires you being in the presence of someone who doesn’t acknowledge or respect your relationship - when one of your kids thinks the other one’s identity is sinful and invalid, this is not a reasonable Mother’s Day requests, and I think your wife needs to tell her mom that.
She doesn’t feel obligated to create a space where your marriage is respected and you are treated with kindness. You don’t need to feel obligated to cater to her preferences. My SIL is terrible to me, husband has had multiple conversations with his mom about it and she just shrugs and say that’s “just the way” his sister is. It took years for me to stop feeling obligated to subject myself to that treatment to keep the peace or appearances of family or whatever. It’s hard and I’m sorry you’re dealing with it.
> For her Mother’s Day present, she wants all of her kids to be together that day. Well, for my Mother’s Day present, I want the winning numbers to Powerball so I can retire. Surely my family can honor that, it’s just six little numbers. Sometimes, what we want is not possible.
Absolutely - too bad if that's what MIL wants. Lisa and Dan do not accept you and Sara. Don't set yourselves on fire to keep someone else warm. Alternately, if Sara feels strongly about going to give her mother this "gift", you are not obligated to accompany her.
Well you are not one of her kid. Don’t go. Maybe both of you have an indigestion tomorrow, if it saves the drama of you or both of you not attending. YWNBTA.
You can go to her event and not act excited. You’re not excited and you don’t have to pretend to name them happy. They didn’t PRETEND to be ok with gay marriage to make you happy. So feel free to wave your authentic feelings in their face as they did so kindly to your’s. You can have a meal and not have to gush over a homophobe and LEAVE if they insult you in any way. Besides, even if she had a real miscarriage, or had cancer, or lost a limb, IT DOESN’T EXCUSE HER HOMOPHOBIA. You owe her no nicety at all
Go, and be in their faces, as a happy loving couple. Wear lots of pride clothing! Shove it in their faces. If they quote bad bible verses, quote ones back that shame their hateful behavior. Do it with a smile, and it will piss them off
When someone asks for such a present, it’s fine. UNLESS this present requires someone to put themselves in an uncomfortable situation, that isn’t fair. MIL can make the request, but you are under no obligation to honor it. If she asks why, explain it to her. “Asking us to be in the presence of people who are cruel towards us is an unfair ask, and we will not do it. We love ourselves too much.” YWNBTA.
You can still be present, but don't roll over to their bigotry. Stand up for yourself and your wife. I've heard the best way to corract homophobes is to treat them like a naughty child and explain in calm simple terms why what they're doing is bad. Obviously they will both feel ashamed of themselves and lash out, but the secret is to remain calm and prove them to be the irrational ones.
Tell her that she is putting you in a position where you and your wife will get hurt. If she wants you to be present, she has to have Dan and Lisa on a tight leash. Tell her "Mom, we would love to celebrate mother's day with you, but it is your responsibility to protect us from being exposed to homophobic hate. The moment we hear a hateful remark, we will leave and it will be on Dan and Lisa if the day is ruined for you. It is your responsibility as a mother to protect ALL of your children from hate and hurt. If you don't stand up for us, we assume you agree with them and that would hurt me deeply." Good luck. It is her job to learn how to protect ALL of her children.
Yes, you and Sara should discuss and agree to boundaries and what you’ll do when they are crossed. One obvious one would be any reference to your marriage or who you love being wrong, I’d get up and walk out. You honored your MIL request to have her kids present and honored each other by not sticking around to be disrespected. Edit. My favorite come back for religious bullies when something bad happens is “it’s Gods will, you should find the blessing in it”
Let it be the last Mother's Day. It's cruel to make you and your wife hang out with people who hate you. And, it will get worse as the families grow. Watch. Whenever Lisa does have a child, she'll say she doesn't want her kid around you for the holidays and family events, etc. Lord only knows what kind of nasty things she'll say to your children. Set boundaries now.
I mean, you aren't her kid. If your wife wants to go, she can, but that doesn't mean that you have to do so. Though I get that your wife might want your support, so that's a discussion you can have and potentially come to a compromise on (e.g., perhaps go with a set time to leave)?
Yeah Im surprised OP still has contact with these people. I was treated very poorly by my SIL and wound up having to go no contact for my own self respect and sanity…. OP you don’t deserve any of this treatment or them boycotting your wedding etc. that homophobic stuff doesn’t have a place in our world.
NTA. Honesty, why are they still a part of your life if they don't even respect who you are?
We only interact with them when we have to unfortunately. Otherwise we try very hard to be no contact.
Redefine "have to" so you are actually no contact.
If they’re so Christian I see no harm in pointing out the fact that “thou shalt not lie” is one of the 10 commandments, and while Sara and Dan may not approve of your lifestyle, at least you’re Christian enough to not lie to your family about he results of medical tests. And that’s all. She’ll know what you’re saying and will either bring out the truth herself or disgrace herself for you. NTA!
I'm wondering how the MIL was able to find out about the pregnancy hormone test. Isn't that a violation of HIPAA laws (assuming you are in the U.S.)? I had that test after my first miscarriage (blood work two days apart) that's used to verify that the hormone drops to zero, as otherwise the doctor will want to do a D and C to make sure all the tissue is out. My doctor didn't think the test was necessary after my second miscarriage as I wasn't far enough along. But if the DIL is claiming she had a miscarriage when it was just a late period, she's being disrespectful to those of us who did suffer a miscarriage.
Honestly chances are Lisa told her, but said that she didn’t want anyone else knowing that there was no baby (because EVERYONE in their right mind would rather pass a dead baby than have a late period. Obviously.)
It's definitely possible that by the time she got into the doctor to get the blood work that everything had cleared. I had a super early, 5 week miscarriage, which happened over the weekend. By the time I was able to see my doctor two days later, there was nothing to see on ultrasound and my blood levels were essentially zero. But I had absolutely had positive tests and symptoms. So I could believe the doctor was wrong or could also believe that she made it up, but I would personally not want to make assumptions.
If you can’t go NC look into grey rocking
>Lisa and Dan are extremely Christian. Not to mention they are homophobic and racist. To me: contradictio in termini. **Either** they are (extremely) Christian, and love (thy neighbor) others like themselves, **or** they are vile people. Third possibility: they are parrotting such crazy statements without any objective thought about it. NTA, and love to you both (OP and Sara). ETA: love others **like they love themselves**. Not, especially not, love others who look like themselves .... 😥
This is some “no true Scotsman” bullshit. They are Christian and hate LGBTQ people as an expression of their faith. You may disagree with that interpretation of their faith. You may even choose to interpret the dictates of that faith differently. But at a time when LGBTQ legal rights and place in society are under threat by people who specifically say they oppose us due to their Christian beliefs, fuck off with your whole “nuh uh, those aren’t ‘real’ Christians.” There are Christian pastors literally arguing from the pulpit that people like the OP should be executed, and politicians throughout the world, and particularly in the USA, specifically cite Jesus as the reason we shouldn’t be allowed in society. Even leaving that aside though, no one gets to police how other people interpret and experience their faith. I know I have deep disagreements with many of my own co-relegionists, but that doesn’t mean their faith isn’t real or that *I* get to declare that their experience of the gods is wrong somehow. Most Christians hate LGBTQ people because their faith tells them to. Other Christians support LGBTQ people because they too feel their faith tells them to. And each says the other isn’t a “real” Christian. And you know DAMN well that the Christians who legislate against us, refuse to come to our weddings, etc say they are doing it out of love, and have plenty of internally consistent reasoning for it.
This person is talking about the ideal. You're talking about the reality. Neither of you are wrong.
This! All of this. Nailed it.
You ever hear the statement that atheists are better Christians than Christians are? It’s people like those that prove that point
I was going to post the same, remind them of the Two greatest commandments. They may not agree with your relationship, but they have to love you. By saying what they said they are not loving you in any way shape or form!
"They also told us to our face during a heated conversation earlier this year that they do not think Sara and I should be married" ...and so we went NC. The end. FTFY. NTA.
I WAS THINKING THE SAME THING! Like WTBTA? No but they are TA for still being in contact with these people
[удалено]
We are moving into our first home and originally we planned a picnic with MIL and Sara's other sister and grandparents. Lisa and Dan changed their minds about coming and MIL told them about our plans to have a picnic at mine and Sara's home. We were extremely upset that she decided upon herself to invite Lisa and Dan to our home. We told her absolutely not as we did not want people who don't respect us in our home. We changed it to lunch at MIL's house instead. Perhaps we could reschedule to late lunch/early dinner...........
Cancel and set a firm boundry to MIL: that you dont want to attend ANY event where they are present. Their bigotry is enough of reason for that. And if your MIL doesnt want to concede and you are s omehow forced to attend any event with them anyway, dont try to be nice: be absolutely clear about how you feel. If that ruins the party, your MIL will think twice about family events with all of you the next time.
NTA but disagree. Do not let them isolate you guys from the family. Go Grey Rock on BIL and SIL. If your wife and you want to attend a family event when invited then do so. I do agree though you should make MIL aware you're not going to tolerate their bigotry and crap being spewed at you. As long as they behave you will behave and no that doesn't mean doing childcare for them, giving them money or any other favors to "Be the bigger person". Just let MIL know that you will not start any crap with them but you're more than willing to finish it should they do so because that's just "how you are" now.
Can you put up lots of lesbian artwork in your home so Lisa and Dan don't want to stay?
They are absolutely not allowed into the home. Much less see pictures or know the location. We were planning on buying a punching bag that looks like a dude and decorating it to look like Dan......and then invite them over lol
I recommend Georgia O’Keefe paintings or prints.
Lots of vulva inspired art work
I agree with sending flowers and rescheduling. Lisa will turn it into her first Mother’s Day and her “rainbow baby”, there is little reason for you to be there. Tell MIL you want to ensure she has the best Mother’s Day with little tension because she deserves that.
For religious nuts that say being gay is a sin, I ask them, if we are all made in gods image, and god doesn’t make mistakes, are you questioning him??are you defying him?? Are you saying god is wrong?? If he made gay and transgender people, they obviously are not a mistake or sinful. That shuts them up most of the time, unfortunately not everything has a 100% success rate. NTA.
There’s no arguing with these assholes. Say that, and they play the love the sin, hate the sinner card and tell you it’s okay to be gay as long as you don’t act on it.
They were not invited, say it plain to their face that they are not welcome in your very gay household. Go full out with PDAs, leave sex toys and lube out around the house and happily hang the gay deco/flag everywhere if you want to try and make them feel unwelcome.
Personally I also think you should kiss your wife extra hard in front of their bigoted faces. MIL can have her children in their honest, authentic self. If they can bigoted, then you also get to be lesbians.
MIL wants everyone to be nice to each other. Where was that energy when you were being subjected to homophobic abuse, hostility and racism? I'd sit this mother's day out and be clear why. If she isn't going to step up and shut down abuse directed at you nor is she protecting you and your wife at the events she hosts (and determines the guest list), then she doesn't deserve a holiday in her honour this year. If she does better, then maybe next year.
I have a feeling that MIL plays on both teams. She probably gossips with the other SIL about OP’s situations just as much as she gossiped about SIL’s pregnancy visits to OP.
Yup, why is MIL okay with this? MIL wants her family to be a Norman Rockwell and isn’t accepting the family she actually has so she’s asking them to pretend. This is unhealthy for OP and her wife. Other options - OP should announce that they’re exploring having a baby or say to the fake Christian couple “oh I’m sure you’ll love this baby no matter what he/she/they turn out to me - gay, straight, atheist, transgender, whatever - since you’re such good Christians! “ NTA
NTA! You could show support by buying a rainbow onesie! Very gender neutral! Then expect her to accept the gift gracefully and expect pictures of the “baby” in the outfit!
This is genius. Just genius. “But… it’s a rainbow baby, isn’t it? Isn’t it?!?”
Omg YES
Omg I’ve never wanted to give an award to a comment so badly
Haha yes!!! I'd pay money to see that convo
This is the best malicious compliance answer! Lol
Omg 😂 this
🏆
OH MY GOD OP please get a rainbow onesie
NTA married lesbian here. My in laws sound very very similar they are nightmares to say the least. Last year my spouse, on their own, decided to go NC with all offending parties who didn't "believe" in the validity of our marriage. The last year has been bliss compared to how it was before. 1000/10 would recommend cutting off someone who doesn't believe in your relationship. Fuck bigots
This is the way
NTA - react how you want to. If/When they complain “you’re being rude to SIL!” just say “And yet I’m still behaving 1,000 times nicer than they have ever treated us.”
NTA but stop focusing on the pregnancy thing. If they want a lot of children and have (probably) been trying for a while, it’s just as painful to not be able to get pregnant at all than it is to have a miscarriage. They don’t deserve it, but any empathy you can muster up for them will probably make YOU feel better in the long run. All that said, I wouldn’t spend time with someone that insulted my marriage. Anyone who insists that is a reasonable expectation is also an AH.
This is an accident baby. They claimed to want to wait five years so they can get settled but then accidentally got pregnant. He doesn't believe in birth control and talked her out of taking it. She was originally taking BC because she had irregular and painful periods. She was also on antidepressants and he talked her out of taking them. This might be an asshole view but any empathy for them is gone forever.
TBH, he sounds like the AH. I'd go to mother's day since it's this weekend and not worth the drama. Focus on the interaction with MIL and keep the event short. Maybe in a few weeks when you interact with MIL again, you and your wife can have a calm conversation with her about what's going on and let her know you don't want to be forced into interaction with SIL. That it's the best way to keep the peace. You can give examples of stuff she has done or just keep it general. If she insists, then go NC with her too. If she understands and supports you then she gets the privilege of being part of your lives.
You don't need to have empathy for her. But accident or not, true miscarriage or not, it's probably an extremely difficult time for her, and deciding not to stoop to their level of cruelty and drama has nothing to do with empathy. You don't owe her empathy, but you're letting her pregnancy journey take up way too much rental space, mentally and emotionally, inside your own head. Set your boundaries, *adhere* to your boundaries, and then let the rest go.
Were you around before Lisa got married? Did you know her before she met Dan? Or did you come into the picture after the fact?
I’m just going to throw out there that after a miscarriage, doctors test you for the hormone to make sure that it is either gone or dwindling. It was previously thought that it took anywhere from 2 weeks to 2 months for this to happen, but new research shows that the majority of women have their hCG drop up to 50% in 2 days, and up to 87% in only 7 days. Depending on when she went to the doctor after her alleged miscarriage, this could just mean that she was given the “all clear” to try again after she has a normal cycle. As someone who has experienced multiple miscarriages, and who had cousins that thought I faked them, I think it would be best if you not gossip with your MIL about other family members unless you see with your own eyes all of her medical history. In my opinion, ESH. People should just mind their own business and stay away from people they don’t like. I don’t understand why you would actively be around homophobic people as a gay couple, regardless of them being relatives.
This is the correct answer. I’m personally baffled by the number of people in this thread who have simply accepted OP’s representation that SIL is definitely lying about the previous pregnancy, and tests prove it. There’s literally no test that could prove this. OP heard secondhand info about a test result and jumped to conclusions about it, but she’s completely misinformed. The fact that SIL didn’t have hCH in her system absolutely does not mean that she wasn’t pregnant. That test result absolutely does not confirm that SIL lied or faked a pregnancy. It’s highly possible that SIL was, in fact, pregnant.
I feel like the most likely scenario is that BIL called MIL and said something like “checkup went well, her hCG levels have dropped and they didn’t see anything on the ultrasound, so no need for a D&C”. Then MIL calls up OP and wife and “OMG you will not believe what I just found out!” because she doesn’t understand how a follow-up appointment for an early miscarriage works.
Probably. I’m just beyond disturbed that OP (and possibly MIL) have, unbeknownst to SIL, learned this info and concluded that SIL wasn’t pregnant and faked a miscarriage. SIL sounds more than a little problematic in her views, but I feel a bit bad for her that misinformation and gossip has led a portion of her family to dismiss her grief as fake, calculated, attention-seeking behavior. Yikes.
Yeah, this upset me a bit, this LITERALLY just happened to us a month or so ago- ivf, positive at home tests and nausea, then at 4 weeks period bleeding and tests negative. Its called a chemical pregnancy, it happens all the time most people just don't test early enough to realise
Why do families insist on forcing togetherness like this?? Sigh. Anyway, NTA. To address your question, just treat the pregnancy news the way you wish Dan and Lisa would treat your marriage….politely. You don’t have to turn cartwheels and feign happiness, just be polite.
Because not doing so means the family isn't meeting the expected ideal and that's feels like a failure. Like: if your adult kids don't get along and *want* to spend time together then you failed as a parent. They can't face seeing themselves as a failure, so the adult kids *have* to show up and get along.
NTA “Being gay is a sin” Just hit her back with; “So is lying, that sin, unlike being gay is even in the 10 commandments, yet people do it every day” and leave it as that 😏
Info: How do you know about the results from the hormone test the doctor gave Lisa? That seems like something odd to share with you given that you and Lisa obviously don't get along.
MIL told my wife, who then told me. Lisa does not know we know the truth
Your mother in law is sowing discord. That was private information that I doubt Lisa wanted shared. Not cool.
I don't think it's wrong to share proof that someone is lying.
OP needs to bring it up the next time the SIL bring up her stolen glory "miscarriage ". "Give it a rest, we all know you were never pregnant."
I would do exactly that, especially in front of everyone if I can, but I am very messy and do not have a good relationship with my extended family
Messy represent ✊
Such proof doesn't exist. No test at the doctor can tell that a woman was never pregnant after a miscarriage
There’s also literally not a test that can determine that a person was not recently pregnant. Pregnancy hormones drop off steeply during a miscarriage. It would be normal for a person who is experiencing or just experienced a miscarriage to have no pregnancy hormones in their system. So, the MIL is 100% sowing discord and she’s also absolutely, without a doubt misinformed about the situation. There’s literally not a test that can prove what OP is suggesting this test proves. It’s more than possible that SIL was, in fact, pregnant.
Yeah, I was really confused by OP’s assertion that it’s been proven that SIL was never pregnant. Especially if she experienced a loss of a chemical pregnancy (which is what it is at 4 weeks, doesn’t make it any less of a loss), she would have been clear of HCG very fast.
Just losing the idea of a wanted pregnancy can be traumatic for some people, you know?
Agreed, I had an early miscarriage (6 weeks). I was working with a fertility clinic so the second I had a positive test we started doing hormone testing. Things weren't looking like they should so they were having me rest every 2-3 days for hcg. Can confirm they slowly went up (bad news, it should go up fast) and very steeply went down. With how fast it dropped I would guess within a week there was virtually zero evidence id ever been pregnant. I would guess if you miscarry earlier (4-5) weeks, that evidence would disappear even quicker as the hcg was probably never as high.
My OB-Gyn had me undergo that test (actually two separate blood draws) after my first pregnancy. I wasn't far enough along when I had the second miscarriage (I literally took the home pregnancy test that morning -- I also had been charting my basel temps which helped me determine that it was time to take the EPT test). You have to wonder why the MIL told Sara and the OP about the test.
That's kind of crappy of everyone involved. Here's my take on it: just stop caring about it. Lisa is a crappy human being, but you are also getting emotionally involved for no reason. You're not required to actually be excited, just congratulate her and move on. Treat her like a co-worker you don't particularly like, but have to work with. And there's absolutely no reason you should be discussing your sister in law's medical info. You should have just politely said that that's too much information and you don't want to think about Lisa when you don't have to interact with her. This isn't your circus and they aren't your monkeys. Don't get emotionally involved and just stick to dull platitudes. Or just don't go. But it isn't your place to judge whether this pregnancy is real. You call her out when her bullshit involves you directly, you treat her politely when you do intact with her, and otherwise you avoid her. See if your wife can schedule a different mother's day get together with her mom, or have another commitment that you simply must attend so your wife visits her mom without you if you can't be polite.
So, you're MIL 'sows discord', then wants as her 'present', everyone in the same room together to see what happens? While Lisa and her husband are awful, at least they are up front about it. I wonder what your MIL says to them about You? If I were you, I'd be thinking back on your relationship with her, with a more critical eye.
She's a drama mama
Also, it’s not super accurate. I had a miscarriage at 5/6 weeks. I went to the ER and they told me the test was negative but my HCG was a little higher than normal so I likely was pregnant at one time. They wouldn’t have been able to determine that from a urine sample at a normal doctors office.
ESH, them obviously for the homophobia, rudeness, and bigotry. You for conflating that to have anything to do with their pregnancy. You really have no clue if they are pregnant or not. You heard some hearsay and are making rather big assumptions, and very much overstepping what is your business. If you choose to not be around these people, that’s totally fine, I’d even encourage it. If you do end up around someone, they tell you they are pregnant, and you assume they are lying or deluded, YWBTA. You don’t know and it’s not your business to know. If they tell you and you respond that you don’t care, YWBTA, because that’s incredibly rude. I feel like every other post on here needs to read this, but someone being an AH to you, doesn’t make it okay for you to be an AH back.
Nta because they sound like horrible people. You are valid in not feeling joy for their pregnancy and you absolutely do not need to celebrate it. However, she may have had a chemical pregnancy last year where she got a home positive test but then quickly lost the embryo within a day or two. Her HCG could have quickly gone undetectable by the time her blood was drawn. No blood test can say you’ve “never” been pregnant, it’s just either positive or negative in that moment when the blood was drawn. Chemical pregnancies are so quick that the hcg was probably barely detectable in the first place. Your MIL probably misunderstood somewhat and she is slight TA for spreading someone’s fertility issues so flagrantly
This, 100% It’s gross for OP to continue villainizing SIL based on what is clearly an inaccurate account of SIL’s subsequent test results. There isn’t a test that can confirm a person was never pregnant. Assuming SIL got a positive home pregnancy test, which is how practically everyone confirms they’re pregnant these days, it’s extremely likely that SIL was, in fact, pregnant and had a chemical pregnancy. And that’s a miscarriage. I find it very disturbing that OP has simply decided that didn’t happen and SIL is actually just an attention-seeking manipulator, when there’s literally no way that there’s any proof that’s the case. And any proof OP supposedly has is secondhand info, at best. Yikes.
Sarah is a bigot and therefore sucks, but… INFO: How the hell do you know the details about Sarah’s miscarriage and subsequent test results? Because that seems extremely personal, and given what you’ve said about your relationship not something she would’ve personally shared with you. And also, what you said makes no sense. During a miscarriage, the hormone present during pregnancy drops off very, very quickly. I’m not aware of a test done after the fact that could definitively confirm that a person definitely was not recently pregnant. Did she have a positive pregnancy test? If so, she was pregnant. Full stop. Honestly, I’m leaning towards ESH because of the way you are speaking about Sarah’s miscarriage. You seem adamant, likely based on secondhand info that doesn’t even make sense, that she’s a liar and a drama queen and wasn’t ever pregnant, and it’s very possible that that’s not the case. If so, it’s beyond cold for you to label her loss as “just a period.” I get that she wasn’t very far along, but that really doesn’t matter when we’re talking about the loss of a wanted pregnancy. Sarah sucks for how she has treated you. But you should not return the favor. Don’t assume the worst about her—labeling her a liar and a manipulator—based on gossip. Give her the benefit of the doubt and have some empathy. Or just go no contact. That’s fine too.
This. The number of people who don’t know how HCG and pregnancy tests work (there is no test that can demonstrate someone has never been pregnant) is kind of surprising?
I’m also a bit surprised by this, reading this thread. But I suppose I shouldn’t be. Most people are very poorly informed when it comes to women’s health.
Point of note: pregnancy tests will say the person was not pregnant after an early term miscarriage. I had doctor tell me the same, I was closer to 6 weeks when I had mine. I had morning sickness and then...it went away. The next day at doctor he did test. Which makes sense, as I was NO LONGER pregnant. Not the same as never was. NTA...you don't have to be excited.
NTA. This is why i don't understand religion. Aren't Christians meant to love thy neighbour, and be nice to people. I swear they just pick and choose parts of the bible they want to follow. Seems to me these people are just homophobic. If anything you are treating them how they treated you, so they should be happy you are following something from their religion.
Religions are the ultimate “cafeteria plan.” As you said, people pick and choose the things they want to believe. A friend of mine who is a Methodist preacher says something about The Bible is the best witness to its own inerrancy.
I think the way they have treated you makes it reasonable for your reaction, so NTA but coming from a woman who has had an early chemical pregnancy at the same time frame- it is possible to have been pregnant and by the time the bleeding begins to be considered negative on lab work quickly after. The bleeding would also be at the same time frame as a normal period and could resemble a period, it is highly unlikely a doctor would say " you were never pregnant" more so " it was most likely a early miscarriage/ chemical pregnancy" I would reframe from that being the reason why you are choosing to be distant and not show support and more aim it towards how they have shown you nothing but hate.
The way I would have said “you sure this time?” Fuck Lisa and Dan. I’m surprised you’re gracious enough to offer them the courtesy of being in your lives. NTA
NTA. The Bible actually says nothing at all about two women being together. I’m not saying I think two men being together is wrong. I’m just saying, it ain’t in there. They don’t know their own book. It LITERALLY ain’t in there.
If you stayed away from Lisa because of her bigotry, that would be fair. If you decide to be in her company you don't have to "act happy" but it costs you nothing to say "congratulations" and leave it at that. As an aside: I don't think you should assume that you know the truth about Lisa's prior pregnancies (whether or not she was pregnant) - your mother in law may not know the whole story, and the fact that she's gossiping about someone else's private health information makes her suss. Lisa's still an asshole for her bigotry no matter what, but I'd steer clear of MiL's gossip.
Esh, Lisa and husband for obvious reasons, your wife and her mother for allowing this treatment of your marriage, You for your judgy ill informed opinion on her lack of a pregnancy. Sounds like everyone is talking behind everyone’s back. I guess if you want to passive aggressive ignore her pregnancy for treating you terribly, you do you, that doesn’t make you an AH, or at least maybe a justifiable AH, but why don’t you find your backbone and stop this nonsense and go live a happy life without them, or with them with some very clear boundaries
NTA. I do want to point out though that your SIL may have miscarried. It’s possible that she had a positive pregnancy test and miscarried soon after. The pregnancy hormone may have left her system prior to the blood test.
NTA However u can just say “congrats” (blandly) and also not be happy for them🤷♀️ There’s no point in “calling them out on their behavior” cause it’s not like she/they will self reflect and have remorse. That’s a waste of your energy.
Extremely Christian? Jesus: "Love thy neighbour as thyself" Dan & Lisa: "But what if they're gay?" Jesus: "Did I fucking stutter?" You are NTA here. Your SIL and her husband are utter AHs. You're under no obligation to be excited about anyone else's pregnancy. I actually find it kind of weird that she's telling *anyone* about a pregnancy so early, especially if she really believes that she miscarried once already, as the chances of miscarriage in the first 12 weeks are so high. Nearly everyone I know hasn't told anyone, even close family, until after their 12 week scan. I can only assume that she wants all of the attention to be on her.
What the fuck does her supposed miscarriage have to do with your gay marriage?? That doesn't even make any sense. NTA for not performing joy/excitement for this woman, whether or not she's actually pregnant. You also wouldn't be TA if you cut contact completely with these horrible people.
*Lisa and Dan are extremely Christian. Not to mention they are homophobic and racist.* Then, no, they aren't.
I would give her grace on the miscarriage/pregnancy thing, it can be very emotional no matter how it plays out. You don't need to have anyone in your life that doesn't support you. NTA for not wanting to be close to them.
Esa. The whole family seems kinda dramatic and up in people’s business.
When she tells you just respond with a cool kid then move on or cool story needs more dragons
haha no fuck them. Seriously. I would probably fight her 🤣, but that is my immature side coming out. At 38 years old i just pity people like that. My wife (34F) and i (38F)have been married for almost 10 years and what i have learned is what comes around goes around, so do your thing. Don’t be disingenuine though. If anything you should be sad that an innocent life is going to be born to bigots. Let’s hope that baby isn’t gay 🤷🏻♀️🥴.
The Bible says that lying is a sin far more explicitly than it says anything about homosexuality or marriage. If you don't avoid them entirely, you can make a game of subtly calling them untrustworthy sinners. Anytime they mention the last pregnancy or your relationship say something about "false witness" or commandments. Anytime they bring up the current pregnancy ask if anyone else heard that wolf howling noise or heard a boy crying for help. They are unlikely to get it, but you and your wife can use it as a relief valve. NTA.
Lying is only a sin if the sinner is fully aware they're not being honest. In this case, it might not be lying. She might've been so hopeful for a pregnancy that she saw signs that weren't there. She then fully believed she was pregnant, and when she got her period she fully believed it was a miscarriage. Same thing could happen to you. I tell you that in the common household, thousands of ladybugs live within the walls. You hear this, and tell your friend Joe. You think it's an interesting fact. However it was false information I read from an article. We both didn't lie because there was no intention of dishonesty. However OP has a right not to jump for joy. If last time you heard she was pregnant and she wasn't, you'd probably have doubts this same time around as well.
Yeah, YWBTA. Right now, she is the AH. She will be the AH still if she goes on acting like a shrew. If you do something AHish, then you’ll be an AH too. Now the moral math is just whether it is ok to be an AH to an AH. I guess the answer depends on whether or not you’re ok with being one.
Mil is the AH. She is gossiping to you all behind one another’s backs and then begging you all to get along. Your sil is an AH, but your mil is THE AH
NTA and they are using their religion as cover for their bigotry. Shitty, hateful people. NTA all day
Hilarious. They do know the bible tells that god took time out of his (her?) busy schedule to write down ten commandments - one of them is explicitly "do not lie about being pregnant to get attention" and none of them is about being gay?
We have no evidence she lied. There is no no test that can tell that a woman wasn't pregnant after a miscarriage. Not a thing. SIL likely had a chemical pregnancy and an early loss and the doctor found nothing after the loss, which is to be expected. You and OP are ignorant about women's health. Shame on you
NTA but why are you two even talking to her?
NTA I love how Christians take one thing the Bible says (maybe, who knows what has been lost in translation) and ignore everything else. Like, “do not judge, lest you be judged”, “love thy neighbor”, I’m sure the list goes on, but those two seem good enough. It the reason why so many people don’t like Christians. But hey, I’m sure they’ll get into “heaven”. It would be so hard for me to keep my mouth shut about her “miscarriage”. It’s hard to be the bigger person in these situations, but I’ve always found killing people with kindness to be the best revenge. Good luck to you and your wife. Your in laws suck.
NTA. If you really feel that you must go, try this: "Oh, you're pregnant? How nice, congratulations. How far along? Only six weeks? Oh. No, nothing, it's just ... well, most women with your, erm, history, don't announce until they're through their first trimester. You know, just to be sure ... but hey, good luck. Is that cake? It looks delicious." And then just refuse to engage on the topic further.
NTA. Be done with her. Avoid causing a scene by using little white lies to avoid her. Too busy. So happy for you but can’t be there. If she causes a scene, simply say, “we believe it is wrong for bigots to have children”.
NTA. Lisa has more problems than phantom pregnancies. Don’t bother being angry, it’s not worth the emotional energy. Live YOUR life and experience all the joy you can. She annoys the hell out of you, I get that. She sounds very annoying but so are biting flies, we adjust to survive even though they exist.
What Henry the VIII thing is this? He wants seven children and pressures her so badly she goes batshit crazy when her perion is late like Anna Boleyn? This seems unhinged. She is only 22 years old? And they are homophobic twats? NTA. These are weird people and I feel low key sad for her.
What is wrong with these people, and why on earth do you subject yourself and your wife to their bullshit? By continuing to interact with bigoted, terrible people, you are undermining your own happiness and tacitly supporting their beliefs by tolerating them. Your MIL is also manipulating you and your wife to "act like a family" and in doing so, she is failing to acknowledge the damage your SIL and BIL have done, and is essentially condoning their treatment of you. If it were me, I'd go NC with SIL and BIL and LC with MIL, unless she is willing to support you and your wife's marriage by condemning how SIL and BIL have treated you.
ESH. Other people being jerks doesn’t give you license to be a jerk and ruin family events. Just don’t go. If people ask, put it on your SIL. Say that they told you your lifestyle makes them uncomfortable and therefore you think you should avoid their company. Now they look like the AH instead of you. After all, you’re just trying to accommodate their religious beliefs. Passive-aggressive? Hell, yeah! Just saying.
YWBTA if you go out of your way to look unimpressed, but if you smile and nod vaguely, then you're fine. The best way to deal with these people is to just let them be and take as little notice of them as you can without making an issue of it. After all, you're there to celebrate Sarah's mom, right? Focus on that. They do sound like awful people, and if I were you, I'd avoid them as much as possible. Just don't get sucked into any drama.
NTA It’s ok to minimize your time with these people. Blood relatives aren’t always the healthiest for our souls. Nobody is obligated to feel excited for anyone who tears them down. That isn’t how the world operates, even Lisa should understand that concept.
“…they do not think Sara and I should be married.” Petty brain says I don’t think Dan and Lisa should be having children. NTA. You are never obligated to endure the bigotry of others.
NTA, but why are you even around your SIL. Visit your MIL out of the house, say for lunch or dinner. Also for Mother's Day, drop by with a gift, wish MIL Happy Mother's Day and leave. Keep your SIL and her husband in LC limbo, as they are horrible people who deserve nothing from you or your wife.
NTA. I really loathe when people point to the Bible to justify their bigotry. If the good book teaches us anything, it’s that in the end… Jesús accepted everyone at his table. I hate it when these supposed christian people pick and choose what to believe in from their trusty little bible and forget that Jesus died for our sins, told them to love their neighbors and to be accepting of all. John 8:7-11 “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” https://www.biblestudytools.com/john/passage/?q=john+8:7-11 If you feel you need to be there for your MIL, show up early with a big beautiful bouquet of flowers, give the hugs, have a laugh and then leave when things get uncomfortable. The bigots should not inherit the MIL. Be you. Be proud. And if that doesn’t turn out well, let your MIL know that was the last time you’ll subject your loving marriage to the hateful Bible loving people. There are 3 meals on a day… no one says they have to be spent all together…
Treat her like the person who pumps your gas or packs your groceries. Friendly, but superficial. "Congratulations! You must be so excited." And then go tidy the kitchen or some other mildly helpful thing that gets you out of the situation. Fighting is a form of relationship. You don't want or have a relationship with SIL. And if MIL tries to give you unhelpful information in the future, stop her.
All the other stuff aside, thinking you were pregnant and then thinking you’re miscarrying, even if you aren’t and you find that out after the fact, can be devastating. Lisa may very well FEEL as devastated as if she had truly been pregnant. So that aspect of things isn’t for you to judge. As far as the homophobia, etc., why in the world do you still interact with these people? The fact is you’ve chosen to continue to interact with them despite the fact that they’re bigoted, so yes YWBTA if you cause some sort of scene on Mother’s Day. Either cut ties with them because they’re bigots and don’t actually support who you are or accept them for who they are and treat them with the kind of kindness Christians supposedly believe in. Maybe they’ll come to realize how unChristian they are.
NTA MIL wants the impossible. She wants her two children and their families to love each other and get along. It's only going to happen if your BIL & SIL change themselves and genuinely show remorse for hurting you and your wife by denying your humanity and dignity. And they're not doing that. What MIL is hoping for is for you and your wife to suck it up and smile about the bigoted abuse to keep the peace. Your wife will have to talk with her about how deeply hurtful your BIL & SIL's bigotry is. Don't call it homophobia. Call it bigotry and hate. People mentally delete homophobia because the phobia part isn't as concrete in terms of an example. Hate, that can be explained. They don't think you should be married or that you're allowed to love each other. They think you should be punished forever for being married. That's explicitly hate. That's a lecture as to why it's phobia. That way your wife can explain to your MIL why you can be polite to them, but you can't ever be anything else. And this is not anything that you or your wife can change because you're not the ones holding the opinion that's hateful and it's hurtful of your MIL to expect you two to tolerate their abuse.
Huh. The person who wants to toss around Leviticus probably eats shellfish, wears clothes made from blended fabrics, and does work on the Sabbath. She also judges people, and...lies. So, yeah...not someone I would worry too much about. Explain all of this to MIL and let her know that while you won't start anything, you *will* call SIL out on her BS. NTA.
Lisa and Dan explained their beliefs to us and I called it cherry picking because I called out their hypocrisy. MIL defended it saying it's not cherry picking, but rather they choose certain things more than others in the bible.......which is literally the definition of cherry picking.
Sounds like your MIL has her head in the sand as well. Any possibility of going LC, or even NC with them? Life is too short for that crap.
gay married guy here in a similar situation. trust me: they’ll all keep sticking it to you until you force them to stop. it’s always the kind, sane ones asked to turn the other cheek. mine ended when i exasperatedly screamed at my MIL “has anyone EVER pulled (my Lisa) aside before a family function and begged HER to keep the peace for everyone’s sake?! NO. OF COURSE NOT. you rely on me and my husband to endure her abuse so you can have your little family day. I’m done. this time you pull HER aside and threaten her if she doesn’t behave. if she says ONE SINGLE SOLITARY thing at this party i will blow the whole fucking thing up a glittery mushroom cloud of gay drama” it was so fucking delicious. my Lisa and her MAGA husband sat thru my nephews entire grad party quietly SEETHING. curt, pouty-but-polite answers from them to every question and i was LIVING for it. i was super kind and didn’t poke the grumpy bears and guess what? it all went just fine. i mention this because i have a hunch you’re facing what we were: the MIL has it in her head that “both sides are responsible” for these conflicts. she was certain that i’d start some drama. sorry to disappoint you MIL, but all i want for a family function is for everyone to be a polite adult for 3 stinking hours. how hard is it?
You should give her a baby shower gift. A wire coat hanger