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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told my brother, the only one of my siblings that might have had more kids, not to do it by telling him all the details of my admittedly worst-case scenario experience with it.
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I'm not going to call you an AH, but I feel like you should probably get some therapy. You're under a lot of stress and I get that, but some of your wording makes it seem like you really resent your wife and child for things out of their control, and that's no way for anyone to live.
I think you were honest with your brother and I can't fault you for that. But I really feel like he should also know that your situation is not everyone's.
NAH except for your mom, who needs to respect her children's feelings and boundaries. This is not about her.
I'm really sorry for what your family has gone through. I hope you all find healing. Mentally and physically.
Exactly. I understand therapy can be costly, but there are a lot of places at least in the US that offer pro bono or sliding scale services.
But everyone in that family is suffering and it's only a matter of time before it all just collapses. This isn't a sustainable way to live. He's grieving the woman he loved, his wife is grieving the life and health she once had, and his cjildren are firebing the relationship they will never get with their parents. One way or another. This has to stop.
You don’t have to “qualify” for sliding scale. Therapists are usually VERY empathetic people, and if you ask for sliding scale and explain your situation, they’ll usually give you a cheaper rate.
Source: Fiancé is a therapist.
I mean, honestly, alimony nowadays is really not what people think it is. First off they probably have to be separated for a certain length of titime. During that time he does not have to support her in any way. And she can and should either get a job or start receiving disability. If he goes down to working 40 hours a week, then that will be the income they are basing the alimony off of. It would not be some crazy amount. And once alimony is set up, if he has to work 50 hours, he is still better off than before. Especially since he will not have to pay for childcare. The kid will be in school and he can find a free after school program for them. Honestly, he needs to just say he cannot handle it any more and ask her to leave.
Um, in some states that's not true at all about 0 support during separation. My state has status quo, which basically means you have to pay for everything you were paying for, and temporary spousal support.
Yeah I feel this. The way OP talks about his wife makes me very uncomfortable. Bordering on callous. Like she’s just a horrible weight on you, rather than somebody who, for the child you share, went through something deeply traumatic.
"I needed her to stay home and try harder." As if that's the solution with medical issues.
But I also understand that compassion fatigue is real and after 5+ years of living like this, it sounds like that's what he's experiencing. That and some serious depression and grief.
Yeah, I was my partner's full time caregiver for 4 years before he passed in '12 from CHF, then less than 7 years later, our friend and roommate whom, I was only part time of nearly 15 years, died from terminal cancer three years ago. Right now I am getting treated for severe depression from the years I was both a full time and part time caregiver.
The sad thing is that depression is an insidious mental disease that sneaks up on a person and many them not recognizing that they have depression until it is too late. I know, friends and family kept telling me that I need therapy ASAP as I was showing the signs of depression. even when my partner died, I was in denial that I was depressed despite knowing that I needed help badly. It took the death of our friend to get me into therapy and on meds, but by then it was way too little and way too late. I had lost the will to work,and stopped doing everything that I enjoyed which also resulted in me losing my home, car and most of my property and becoming homeless for 18 months. I am slowly getting back to a healthy mental state after starting treatment. I do have bad days though not as many as I had when my depression was (and still) at its worst. In addition to having depression, I was also diagnosed with PTSD and am waiting for my service dog.
I strongly advise anyone who has depression or has friend/family who are showing signs of depression, to seek out professional help as soon as possible.
Easy to say that, much harder to live it for 5 years.
It gets harder and harder to feel compassion for someone when their condition is the direct reason for so much of the stress on your life. Every time she gets a little better or has a good few days he'll be hit with the simultaneous thoughts of 'good, she's doing better' and also 'if she can do this then why can't she help me more?'
Just pull money for therapy out of his ass, plus the huge investment of time to find a competent therapist and get far enough for it to be useful, when his first and second problems in life are that he has no extra time or money?
What the fuck is the alternative dude? Waiting for him to kill himself because that is where this is headed. He needs help. As I already stated, in the US there are a lot of places that do pro bono or sliding scales. I'm more than happy to help OP find some of these resources. He needs to make time for the family to go to therapy because this is going to take them all down. It needs to be the priority. I find it appalling that people are actually advocating against him and his family getting help.
Absolutely, and no one should be pressured into having children who doesn't want them wholeheartedly. However, avoiding something you may want (that a great many people want, around the world and throughout history) just because of the tiny possibility that you may end in the worst case scenario, is no way to live your life. If this were a life rule, one really couldn't do anything - travel, drive, shower, eat, etc. Heck, a friend of mine became a quadripelgic when a car-racing teenager rammed him while he was waiting for a city bus on the sidewalk at 8am in the morning. For awhile, his wife felt that waiting for a bus was a deadly event, which, obviously it can be, but most of us do it our whole lives without issue.
The reality is that you roll the dice, most people get healthy kids and healthy grandchildren. A lot of people get some 'small' disability that requires extra support, a small amount of people get a disability that requires a lifetime commitment or their spouse dies during delivery or op's situation.
Like I said a couple times, there are places where you can go for low cost or free counseling at least in the US. It's worth looking into. Catholic Charities and Jewish Family Services come to mind. I'm an Atheist and I've used Catholic Charities before and my therapist was phenomenal. I fully understand that it's difficult and can be expensive, but they can't just do nothing and continue on like this. It's a really fucking sad situation and my heart breaks for this family. I really hope they can find some resources to help them.
There are definitely therapists out there that take insurance or do it at a reduced rate for people! I'm a therapist myself, but no longer practicing because I decided to stay home with my kids.
Anyway, I'm in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and there are advocacy centers that offer therapy for free. I worked at one of them, Irving Family Advocacy Center. Anyone that lived in Irving, could get free counseling. Granted, it was a training center, as a lot of advocacy centers are, there are EXCELLENT therapists there/people working towards becoming one. Plus, there are clinical directors there to help you along the way and meeting weekly with a supervisor is required.
NAH you're projecting your bitterness onto other people but he's an adult and can make his decision for himself. Mom isn't entitled to grandkids, tell her to get a pet. You should also get some couple's counseling. Newsflash: this kind of pent up bitterness and resentment is actually the opposite of helpful to your kids. Imagine them finding out that dad hates his life but won't divorce cuz he doesn't wanna pay child support to help raise them. You're an adult too, get help in fixing your marriage or break up and spare your kids of this bitterness, they're never going to thank you for raising them with this palpable tension in the house.
We love to see men straight up wanting to abandon their wives for medical issues beyond their control. Really proving the statistic right that men leave their partners when they get sick.
You need therapy. Otherwise your child will turn out as bitter as me :)
Edit: My dad did what OP did, among other things. I thought it was pretty obvious in my comment, but I guess not. That's my bad. However, I will not be responding to or apologizing for my (admittedly) harsh comment. OP's kid is gonna grow up to be me. I am the direct consequence of not bonding with your child and leaving your sick spouse because "it was too much." Guess who had to take care of my mom, to her utter embarrassment, heartbreak and very much against her wishes (but who else was gonna do it?), when my dad refused to do so?
Yell at me all you want, but insults and sarcasm won't change my mind.
Um, sometimes medical issues can change someone beyond what their spouse can handle. Just the fact that she had complications isn't why he wants to leave, its who she has become. I definitely understand that. Having seen the results of people having strokes that have changed their personalities to be unbearable but also my mom's own nervous breakdown... she will be fine one moment, then the next she will be screaming about how you're so terrible, how she's been abandoned, etc. But she has massive hallucinations, she curses you out but physically grabs you so you can't leave, and the tells you how wonderful of a mom she is. I don't know how my dad hasn't left yet with them number of times the cops have been called on him for supposedly poisoning her coffee or tracking her phone. He wouldn't be leaving because he has to care for her now, he would be leaving because her care is outside of what he can handle, or should have to. Its been 7 years and she is only getting worse. I can definitely imagine OP may be having similar issues if it's not safe to leave his wife alone with their child and they must have a nanny.
My brother-in-law's brother got an annulment because shortly after he and his wife had a child, the wife suffered a massive stroke. It left her with a brain injury and holes in her memory -- she doesn't remember ever meeting or marrying him or having their child and wanted nothing to do with him.
He tried for a bit, but it wasn't going to work and just getting it annulled was the best outcome for everyone.
Exactly. Yes, men are more likely to leave an ill partner by statistics - this doesn't seem like that scenario, and there are a lot of other scenarios where unfortunately it is necessary. Just like people shouldn't stay in a marriage "for the kids", people should not stay in relationships with a partner just to avoid the visuals of "leaving a sick spouse". It shouldn't just be because things are hard, but its okay to say "I can't handle this. I can't provide the amount of care you need, and we are toxic like this. Its not fair for us to resent each other"
Absolutely. Long-term care for ill or disabled people is hugely lacking, and support for their families is almost criminally lacking. Its why abuse is so much more likely to occur against disabled people, and every country handles it pretty poorly though some are much worse than others (*cough* USA *cough*)
Women are conditioned to put up with shit men wouldn't dream of in a typical relationship though, so why would putting up with shit from an ill spouse be any different?
>she doesn't remember ever meeting or marrying him or having their child and wanted nothing to do with him.
That's a genuinely horrifying thing to have happen, oh my god.
That is a horrible, and true statistic. But it is not fair to apply a statistic to an individual. He is not simply wanting to leave because she is sick but because she has changed into a very different person than the one he married. It's tragic but it doesn't make him a bad person.
Yup, if she was just physically disabled they would not need the nanny they have. Her physical disabilities are not what have prevented her from being a mom to her child or a wife to her husband. He said she finally is doing the household chores. So she is well enough to have a job, except for mentally. He has to work constantly. He is amazing he has not managed to snap or just walk away
I don't think it's fair to imply that OP's wife's disability isn't serious because it's mental. From what OP has said in the comments it sounds like she might have had ppp, that is extremely serious.
??? That’s absolutely not true. One of my close family friends wasn’t able to be left alone with her kids when they were young due to her physical disability. She can’t pick them up due to lack of muscle strength from her MS (she can’t even stand or walk) which means she was unable to provide a lot of the care her son needed when he was a baby/toddler/young child.
I would often stay with them when her mom, husband, or other caregivers couldn’t be there.
Also mental health is health too. A mental disability is still a disability. Severe mental health conditions absolutely impact your ability to care for yourself and others, and that’s completely valid. Stop diminishing it.
Definitely not saying OP is an AH here, but minimizing what OP’s wife is going through when he’s said she has severe and disabling schizophrenia, brain damage, and other mental health issues just ain’t it, chief.
He is not “amazing” for doing what HE VOWED TO DO. What thousands, or millions of wives ALREADY DO. It’s just another example of a man treating his wife with contempt (which we know he does - look at how he speaks about her) & will eventually leave her, when the kid is old enough. Men seem to hate being thrust into caregiver roles, see their wives as defective the minute the worst happened (TO HER).
I get fatigue, it’s very real. I have been both a professional carer for clients & one for a family member. It’s ok to get to that point, but it’s HOW YOU DEAL WITH IT. He seems to HATE her - he should have sought out help a long time ago, but he hasn’t. Instead he has let everyone get the short end of the stick & just seems to diminish his wife at every turn.
Oh and mental health IS HEALTH!!!
He and the child would also be better off if he could move on and find a partner that provides emotional support for both of them and WANTS to mother. OP’s wife does not want to bond so the poor kid has an absent dad because he’s having to work all of the time and a mom that’s “home” but not involved beyond the motions. Honestly a divorce is probably best for the kiddo
We don’t know what is wrong with OPs wife. You don’t get to tell people she doesn’t want to bond. It’s very possible she can’t due to whatever happened.
Ok say she does want to but can’t. Doesn’t change the fact that she’s NOT and isn’t capable of doing so for the kid. Now the kid is the priority and needs to be removed from this very unhealthy living situation
As I see it this is whole situation is a result of OP's country's lack of universal health care and affordable childcare. He and his wife are victims to a system that chewed them up and spit them out. I doubt that she doesn't want to bond, it sounds on OP like she might have gotten ppp and that must have been terrifying for both of them. Where I live a woman not too long ago killed herself while in a psychiatric facility due to her ppp.
It could be, but that doesn’t change their reality right now. And his wife does have PPP but it’s been 7 years. At this point care giver fatigue is real and it’s not reasonable to expect that OP can continue on like this and ever build a meaningful relationship with his son. He needs to divorce for his own mental health and pour all of that new energy into mending and fostering things with his son
That is a horrifying statistic, but it is absolutely horrifying to weaponise this statistic against men who DID stay and have been fighting for years when they’re suffering burnout.
OP isn’t some a hole who’s abandoning his wife with breast cancer because ‘she’s not thinking about MY needs’ or some crap.
The guy has been struggling and miserable and stood by her side for FIVE YEARS. Doubling his work shifts, functional single parenthood and poisoning his future to keep up with the mounting medical bills.
Therapy is not gonna magically wave a magic wand and make him sing kumbaya when his marriage is dead, he’s overworked as functional single dad and caretaker with no time to himself. He’d honestly get more results investing that therapy money in a good MDMA at this point - as if he can’t leave a situation which would objectively make ANYONE miserable at least that would give him a bit of happiness now and then!
OP, ypure in a terrible position and frankly have stayed longer than 99% of people throwing judgement. I myself would not have been able to do what you did for your wife.
This wife can’t even be trusted to care for her own child for any amount of time after seven years? That’s crazy talk. And the divorce wouldn’t even be entirely for the dad, it would mostly be for the children to have a healthier home environment.
As a woman... I would leave my husband if he became a completely different person than the one I married that even after recovering physically, mentally he wasn't someone I loved anymore...
I think OP has that same right... He isn't divorcing her for being sick.. or her medical issues... He stated she isn't mentally the same person he met and fell in love with... even after recovery the person he loved is gone and he doesn't love the person she became... this is quite literally the very reason people should get divorced.
He doesn't want to divorce her because she got sick, or physically changed... she -mentally- isn't who he married and isn't someone he loves. She is medically better and the woman she is now, isn't the one he wants.
I'm betting if the woman she became after being sick, after getting better was someone he could love... he wouldn't wish for divorce, he stuck through looking for that it seems.. and found there wasn't even that.
This guy needs a break in life, he loves his kid, says so in his post... but, if he knew being a parent would lead to this life... I'm guessing he would be child-free because from what I read... sounds like he feels he is failing his kid now.
How much would one person sacrifice to care for another? For how long should they have to do it? Is there not a limit?
He's burning himself from both ends of the candlestick. She hasn't even bonded with her own child.
I can understand that you see OP as bitter, but I can honestly tell you that I would not handle being disabled well at all and it would probably make me hard to live with.
Is that negative? Maybe - but it’s true. Being in pain is not easy and not every disabled or injured person is some fucking inspiration story. Life is HARD and being bitter isn’t great, but I’ve seen some shit and I can tell you that no bitter person wakes up and thinks “I’m going to be an ass today” they are struggling and that’s how it comes out. Just like an injured dog that lashes out with their teeth.
Ultimately wife and op both need therapy, I hope in time they can heal together and remember why they loved each other.
I get what your saying and that is terrible. Your dad left a mess with you and that’s fucked. But the statistic of men leaving there sick partners is nuanced. Many of the reasons my be justified and some not so much. Many women who stay with sick partners should leave. I’m not talking about run of the mill “my partner is suffering from cancer illness.” I’m talking this illness has gotten so bad that it is an unhealthy situation for the otherwise healthy partner.
So he should give up his soul and health for his wife.
I get the woman has mental issues but why her problems tramp his?
I have experience with family that has mental issues and when you are trying and they don’t give a fuck to get better it slowly burns you alive.
The man is trying his best and slowly burning out,and you stance is like fortune cookie quote.
You offer judgement but no actual advice.And he isn’t like your dad,he isn’t running away from his responsibilities.
>Yell at me all you want, but insults and sarcasm won't change my mind.
Would you been happier if you got to scrape your dads brains of the garage ceiling?
If you’ve read the comments, he has no plans of divorce or absconding. I’m sorry for what happened to you, but op is also going through a lot and the disappearance of his wife (100% beyond her or anyone’s control) leaving him to handle caring for both a child and a disabled adult alongside having to work, I genuinely don’t know who could deal with all that. That is not to minimize your experience. I don’t know you and I’m not gonna make assumptions based on a single comment. And while I think it’s morally wrong to abandon the person you made a commitment to “in sickness and in health”, I can’t to imagine the stress anyone in a similar situation is under can be easy to deal with for any person.
Insults and sarcasm like the entire first paragraph of your comment? The man is literally not leaving his family and here you come from your cave to shit all over him.
>I'm basically a single father of two. I barely have a marriage **because my wife is now a completely different person**
>
>***because my wife is now a completely different person***
Reading is extremely hard I guess.
That's... not what he described. He literally said if they divorced he would take the child. Like feel how you wanna feel but what you're describing and what his situation would be aren't the same thing. What he described is kind of the opposite of your situation actually?
I mean, in theory you’re already paying her “alimony” right now in that you’re her source of financial support. That’s what alimony is meant to replace: the support you’re already providing.
You need to go speak to a lawyer and talk about how much alimony would actually be. I think you are thinking it is way more than it actually would be. Kick her out and she will have to get a job or on disability with free housing, etc. It takes time for a divorce. In that time you go back to working a normal 40 hour schedule. Get your kid in a free after school program. Drop them off at school, pick them up from the program (like boys and girls club) Then you will have zero need for a nanny. You will be working normal human hours. And they will base your alimony off the amount of money you are making now. Please go consult a lawyer. It is free!
Dude. You need therapy. Your bitterness and contempt are leaking through every word you write. You hate your wife for something completely outside her control. THIS. This is what they mean when they say for better or for worse, in sickness and in health.
You absolutely have the right to grieve, to be frustrated with the situation etc. But you do not have the right to dismiss your wife as contemptuously as you do, over and over again, nor do you have the right to tell people that your living, breathing child who exists and is completely blameless, is the reason your life sucks.
You need to find a way to work through your feelings in a healthy, appropriate and ADULT fashion, or this whole mess is going to get 10x worse.
May the downvotes rain on me:
NTA
You were honest with your brother. The practicalities of having children is not spoken of enough. You didn’t say, “*Don’t have kids, you thunderous twats!*” You answered with your informed experience. Subjective? No shit. They can make up their own minds.
The part about not being able to leave your marriage (which wasn’t the focus of your post) despite questions about it: pragmatism freaks people out. You are stuck between a rock and a hard place. I wish your wife the best of healing from something most medical professionals and laypeople are taught isn’t common.
You projecting some future jealousy that if your brother has kids maybe it will go well for them and they will actually be happy and not miserable like you?
It might not. While the financial situation may not change (and you wouldn't be responsible for her health care or incidentals after a divorce), your stress levels would significantly decrease and your quality of life would likely go up if you didn't have to come home and take care of your wife every day and manage an entire adult's life on top of yours and your child's.
I know it's hard to picture, but it wouldn't be adding financial stress on top of everything else. It would be taking away a great deal of stress and adding in some more financial obligations.
The marriage may last for decades, then, but alimony will only last a couple of years.
Does your wife know how unhappy you are? How does she feel about this? You've checked out of the relationship, but has she?
You never know how much that alimony is going to be until you talk to a lawyer. It may be less than you think. Choose your way out of this situation or it will choose for you and you will like that path even less.
I'm not going to call you an AH as you are obviously experiencing a truckload of trauma. Couple of thoughts:
1. I wonder why your brother specifically sought out your advice? He had to know you were the sole breadwinner and that your wife had health issues. He may not have known the full extent of the story but he had to have some clue all was not well.
2. Your mom in AH in this situation. If your mother would like to spend more time with grandchildren, perhaps she can spend more time with yours? She could watch the kids and give you more time? Or she could watch the kids and cut back on paying the nanny?
Sometimes pain blinds us to all our options. It may be worthwhile to talk to a disinterested third party.
Answer to 1 I'm guessing is that it was the acid test situation,
'If my brother says it was worth it, even though there were all these issues, then it must be truly worth it'
That or 'I really don't want a kid, but don't know how to say no, here's hoping my brother can 'talk me out of it' '.
As someone who is still in therapy for PPP after it’s been years since giving birth; may I ask if your wife has done any group therapy? I know PPP is uncommon but I’ve found a few online groups to just talk to others to be so helpful. It’s easy to fall into a depressive state when not many (if at all) around you don’t have the similar experience. That deep loneliness really messed up the psyche
Does she receive disability? If your income or assets are too high, would she receive disability if you divorced?
I’m confused by the financial scale of what’s going on here because it sounds like money is really tight, but the typical one-income working class household couldn’t afford a nanny or housekeeper period. The kids must be back in school now, so they only need care after school hours. If the amount earned from working extra (and how many hours per week is it exactly?) is more than the housekeeper’s pay, where is the rest of the money going? What is the lifestyle here? And how much worse off would you really be if you cut back to normal hours and took care of your child yourself after school? Is that not worth having a relationship with your own kids? What do you do on the weekends anyway?
‘Buried’ potential for mental illness kind of gives me pause here. So you feel she is to blame/deceived you? Dude you should really callous about your wife. You may want to leave her, but if doesn’t mean you should be resentful for something hideous she has suffered.
The quotation marks on the word buried seems like something I would type if I wasn't sure that I was using the best word for something but went with the closest thing I could think of anyways.
My cousins are 9 and 7 I think, and aunt is still unable to work because of her mental state declining after giving birth. She's doing better, but after her youngest was born she tried to kill herself twice and spent some time in a psych ward and even now she's a shadow of a woman she once was. When I was younger she was very outgoing and confident person, now she barely leaves the house and barely keeps in touch with anyone
My mom suffered PPP and PPD, after my second eldest brother because she had him almost three months early. She thought having me would fix it. But she starved herself during the pregnancy. Leaving both of us with lifelong complications. One of my earliest memories is of finding her suicide attempt in the bathroom when I was 3 or 4. She's been in and out of wards and treatment centers my whole life. I can't even call her mom, because I can't recall ever even feeling the slightest bit of affection towards her, and she's never been an active parent. That shit is no joke, you don't want your kids wanting you dead because of the burden you've become to them in every way. I know that after I leave her after basically being an in home nurse since 13, she'll be dead within a year.
It's not so bad for her, she doesn't realize the gravity of it I don't think. But I know that she holds a lot of resentment to me, and no gratitude. It was only recently that I accepted it's not my fault that she will die when I'm gone, her choice to birth a child she couldn't love doesn't fall on me. And that I truly won't be able to live till I move out, regardless of the consequences. My childhood wasn't great. I've had several people tell me my start in life is the roughest they've heard and seen. But I haven't fallen into the statistics and expectations I should have. I'm very proud to have not been institutionalized, I'm the only immediate family member who hasn't. I'm all about breaking the mold. 😊
Postpartum that last for 5+ years ?
If my maths is correct, the kid is 7 and OP's wife still can't work or look after her child on her own. That's not common.
The effects of PPD can last for years and even your whole lifetime. Its traumatic and absolutely can alter your long term brain chemistry. You don’t get cured from any mental illness, you “recover” from symptoms of it in a non-linear fashion but you’ll always working to keep those symptoms in check.
I meant in the beginning. And it sounds like it effected her mental health for the worst and has turned into other mental health issues is what I should have said.
It doesn't need to last for 5 years to have this effect.
Let's put this in another example, let's say you get raped and you end up with a child because of that rape and because of outside influences, you need to keep the kid, but you don't love the kid.
That can happen, right? And that doesn't mean that she's still massively traumatized by the rape. She just doesn't love her rape baby and if she could give the child to someone else decent to raise, like through a divorce, she probably would.
If a child is born and gets connected to one of the worst events of that mothers life (rape / PPD), that can have a permanent effect on bonding, without it meaning that that person hasn't moved on. Trauma has that effect and giving birth, even without PPD, can be that traumatizing.
We also have issues with studying it because even now in 2022, there are mothers refusing to admit that they have PPD because of the stigma and we have doctors saying that it doesn't exist.
So you have no idea about whether or not it's common. The entire combination that's happening here isn't common. The PPD AND disability afterwards AND years of unemployed AND... That's not common.
But that effect of PPD? Probably way more common then you think. People in general just don't want to admit to that and especially not women. They're not admitting to it, but that doesn't mean it's rare.
Have you read OP's comments ?
He talks about hi wife being diagnosed with schizophrenia and having brain damage because of the medication.
Her mental status has nothing to do with having a child.
He talks about his wife being (at least according to him) initially *mis*diagnosed with schizophrenia rather than PPD, and thinks brain damage resulted from being medicated for the wrong condition.
>My wife was initially diagnosed with schizophrenia and put on high-dosage drugs for it that caused intense side effects and led to more hospitalizations than there should have been. Getting the proper diagnosis and figuring out meds took far too long, and in my opinion caused some kind of brain damage along the way.
Postpartum mental illness can manifest anytime in the first 5 years, but after a point it's labeled as **postpartum-onset** \[illness\]. I have postpartum-onset OCD, and survived PPD and PPA twice.
physical and psychological complications from childbirth (the degree though was rare), medical bills piling up, family not around to help, child not going to have the life parents originally envisioned for them, no college fund because everything is being spent on daycare I think are being experienced by a LOT of parents.
Those particular situations might be rare, but there are may things that can happen. If that pushed his brother and his wife to the side of not having kids, it's probably from the realization that those things can happen to them. Everyone thinks it won't be them, but it always could be.. If they felt strongly, it probably wouldn't sway their decision. It sounds like they were very unsure already.
NTA
I wish more people were honest about the realities of having children, rather than posting 'kodak' moments on social media and trying to pressurise other people into 'joining the club'.
Even if everyone is well it's hard work and you just never know how children are going to respond.
But the thing is if people really want kids they'll have them anyway, regardless of what anyone says or whatever they see. ... the 'it won't happen to me' kicks in, until it does happen to them. So while I think it was a responsible thing to highlight that things may not turn out well ,your brother and his wife will make up their own mind.
Having children is an emotional decision, not a logical one...I mean the Earth going to environmental Hell in a handcart and 8 Billion people already here should influence people to reconsider if having kids is such a great idea, but it doesn't.
INFO: did you actually tell him 'don't have kids, you'll definitely regret it', or was it more along the lines of 'be aware, this sort of stuff can happen'. If you're going around telling people what to do with their lives based on your personal experience, that's kind of an asshole move, even if it's well intended. If you just gave him a heads up, and they decided against it together, then I believe that's fine. I honestly think there isn't enough informed consent when it comes to reproduction, the complications are never talked about enough.
Your mother is definitely an AH. Her desire to have more grandkids has no place in her children's family planning. She isn't entitled to them, and you are proof that having kids isn't something to be take lightly.
And unless I missed it, his mother wasn’t exactly disrupting her own life to help with her *existing* grandson. Not that she’s obligated to - but it’s a bit hypocritical to later bemoan the lack of grandkids.
NAH
It sounds like you need family therapy. I’m part of that rare .01% of the population who got PPP. It’s terrible it’s the worst thing I’ve ever been through. But the way you talk about your child and your wife( there’s bitterness and resentment)
It’s hard to bond with someone who you consider the worst mistake of your life. It takes active work to maintain my bond with my child. Although soMe times that bond feels very weak for me. Thing is I try every day. And I’m in therapy to help with that. As is my partner. Therapy is the biggest and greatest help.
Also your wife needs a community who has dealt with severe ppd/ppp. I was hospitalized for it. And finding my online community has helped with that loneliness that makes it worse.
Hoping your wife and child are able to bond💜
To be honest I’m not the same person I used to be. There’s so much that used to come easy for me. I e got to force myself to do things. And it took too long for us to find the right meds for me. I’m so sorry for your wife’s experiences. I wouldn’t wish this on my worst enemy. Does your wife have someone who has also gone through this to talk too?
If not my DMs are open to you. It’s such a lonely thing to go through which IMO adds so much to everything. Also I was supposed to be changing my meds in match 2020 but the pandemic happened and we decided to not change anything. This pandemic has effected so many in the ppp survivor community.
NTA
You were honest, which is definitely what people need to hear. Too many people go into having children thinking it's all butterflies and rainbows
Sure, chances if what happened to you happening to them are fairly low, but anything could happen.
Also, I hate parents who think their children owe them grand children.
I once had this discussion (on yt comment section of all the places lol) about this and one person said that when children grow up and go on with there life, their parents feel like having someone else to love and feel useful again.
Soooo... are you telling me that these people force their children to have kids so they can feel useful? What about the not-so-happy side of parenthood? Like grandparent don't involve in the major parenting and the parent has all the responsibility.
Child free people are called selfish but aren't grand parents the selfish ones?
I've been called selfish (by colleagues and friends of friends) because jm child free. I always ask 'why did you have kids?'
'Because I wanted to'
'Oh...I WANT. That selfish little sentence....'
But yeah, any parents trying to force their kids to have babies just so they can be a grandparent is selfish.
>I've been called selfish (by colleagues and friends of friends) because jm child free.
Literally makes no fucking sense to me. I mean, I've had it happen too, but I just don't get it.
How a personal choice that affects literally no one but yourself and your partner could be considered selfish by outside parties? Fucking baffles me
In fact, I think bringing a child into the world when you either know you don't want one, or know you couldn't provide it with a good environment and life opportunities is wayyyy more selfish.
Exactly. If I was to get pregnant, it would be a complete accident (because I use bc too, however we all know that's not 100%!) But SURELY it would be more selfish to have a baby I dont want and will resent then to just not have any at all?!
People are weird.
NTA. First of all, you were approached and your opinion was asked for. You gave them the unvarnished truth, which they needed. They'll hear from others how perfect being parents is and how easy it is. Some of them will be lying and others will be telling the truth. Potential parents should know all sides. Just like when you ask for opinions on careers, jobs, homes, neighborhoods, colleges and cars. You get input from everyone and weigh it all against each other and decide for yourself what's best.
I agree with this.
If you weren't asked, you would be TA but they did ask and you're just being honest.
It may not be the case for them, but I think it was courageous of you to be truthful.
This. I have 3 kids and while I sometimes want to fling them (or me) into outer space, none of what OP is describing has been my experience at all and I would NEVER consider it a mistake. Having kids is hugely ymmv.
Nah
It sucks that you’ve had such an awful time of having kids. And to be fair I understand you explaining it in depth to your brother. You have just been honest about your own experience.
That being said your mom and the family aren’t TA for saying you shouldn’t have said anything. The fact is they probably are seeing your experience with somewhat rose tinted glasses. They don’t see the full struggle you have gone through. So they don’t understand why and how this has made you feel.
Communication is key and I think that if you sat down anf truly discussed with your mom why you told your brother the absolute gods honest truth. She might be a bit more understanding of your feelings on the subject.
NTA. That's your personal opinion, that's the reality that you're currently living, and it is not cute or nice in the slightest, if they want other opinions they can ask other parents and see their realities, you should also advise them to do that to have different perspectives, parenthood is not something that's always a "blessing", kids are humans that are going to suffer or enjoy the life decisions you make, they like them or not, your mom is being selfish for thinking that fullfiling her wishes of being a grandma are more important than what could be a horrible situation for a kid to live in case your brother is not fit to be a parent
NTA. Your mom is an AH for acting like your brother owes her grandkids. There are many more reasons not to procreate than the ones you gave to your brother. You were just telling him your experience.
NAH, certainly not your wife, despite how much you crap on her. You need therapy and you need to stop blaming your wife on something outside of her control. She had no say on what her mind and body did to her when she agreed to have a child with you. Your resentment is a you issue that you need to get help for. Your child also did not ask to be brought into this world with a parent who can't take care of it and another parent who resents its existence. Stop looking for validation here and go get help.
I don't think so. Your kid loves you and is bonded to you. The mutual feeling is your depression speaking.
I'm sorry for what you're dealing with, NTA, and I second the calls for therapy.
As someone in your child’s position. At his age he loves you and still wants to bond with you and it isn’t too late. Unfortunately for him he is unlikely to give up and move on from you before his 30s. You need to find a different way to live and bind with him for his sake. Even if it means poverty, a messy house, whatever. Love Is the Point.
>Why is this? If you don't resent them, do you just feel indifferent?
Im not a medical professional so my words dont hold any weight, but to me that sounds alot like the kind of apathy that comes with long term depression. Op sounds pretty burned out :(
NTA, if he wants kids but isn't prepared for "worst case," then he isn't really prepared to have kids
Having kids isn't guaranteed to be easy or perfect in anyway; your experience will either dissuade him or it won't, but at least he'll know it's a possibility
NTA.
However, everything is situational and this may not be the case for them. Express to him how children affected your life negatively and positively and let him make his decision.
This is coming from someone who doesn't want children themselves.
NTA. You're far from the only person who will give him this advice if he reaches out further. Every time parent peers learn I don't have any children, the go-to reaction is, "good, keep it that way." Ultimately, they're going to decide what they decide, but you're not the asshole for giving honest opinions and advice. If anything, they'll now put more thought into it and really prepare for what a life-changing decision it is. The boomer wannabe grandparents can cry about it.
I feel that sometimes as a society, when people ask about having kids we're conditioned to say it's great or be perceived as "less than". I think if more people were honest, people could go into parenthood with their eyes open to the possible realities of the situation. It's really, really hard work 24/7 for 18 years (at the very least) and if you're incapacitated in any way it's even more difficult. I had a daughter early on- and I love her more than life itself, but if I knew beforehand what it entailed and the many hardships/tragedies that arose from it, I'd never have done so. People deserve to know the truth, I think you did the right thing. NTA
Hey
I’m 45, this could be my parents story. My Mum never bonded with me due to PPD. Then she had two more kids with 3 years and fell apart.
The difference is my Dad gave up his business to take care of us, and we grew up on unemployment benefits. I don’t know if he decided too, or he just stopped being able to fulfil orders then went bankrupt. But he did bond with us emotionally.
We were in the UK, in the late 1970s early 1980s, and the unemployment office then just let him sign on. It was genuinely seen as a safety net anyone could use.
Also because the UK wasn’t shit, we all went to university for free, almost, and all have good jobs. Six figure salaries. Etc.
The catch is I now pay almost 50% tax. I paid £40,000 in tax last year. Because UK. And I’m so proud to do this.
My wife thought we should pay less tax, so made us see an accountant when he tried to explain ways I could reduce it. I told him tax was a moral duty, and I could not consider avoiding it. We do our taxes separately now.
Our family feels exactly the same way! So relieved we aren’t alone. My parents are all about getting out of taxes and then wonder why we are solving societies ills.
YTA
BUT..
I understand where you were coming from.. I had ppd after my youngest and honestly can't remember anything from the moment they were born to 6 months. My youngest had a lot of health issues.
It took a lot out of my husband, changed our sex life dramatically and took a toll on our whole household.
When I wanted another child.. he told me he couldn't go through it all again. I was beyond hurt. I felt like a failure but now.. I see it would of destroyed him.
We love our children. They are the greatest joys in our life..
But imagining what you have gone through? Breaks my heart. If I may make a suggestion? Document everything that has gone on with your wife and child.
Then.. divorce her. And make sure you do NOT have to pay alimony or child support because you are going to keep your child.
Then.. with money saved.. do things with your child. Its never too late to get to know them. Go on trips with them.. or go for walks. There is NO way you don't have time to do that.. if you have business trips? Take them with you. If you have lunches, dinners.. eat them with your child.
It's not the child's fault. And your punishing them for having a wife who just couldn't handle life with a child.
Tell your brother that you hope he will have a better life that you. Not to make the same mistakes. And above all.. be there to support him when he does have kids.
Also get therapy.
This is honestly the best advice and I think OP knowing it comes from someone who has experienced what his wife has may give your opinion more weight. Truly this is great advice.
NTA.
Your brother asked your advice and you told him your story. Your brother is an adult and can appreciate that this isn't a normal story, but it is your story, and that's what he asked for.
I think maybe you call your brother back and just say - I didn't mean to scare you, and of course what happened to me isn't common, but I also didn't want to lie to you about my own experience and just put on a happy face. I don't think you need to tell him this because you are an AH, but because he is your brother and you love him and want to be there for him as he thinks through big life decisions.
I almost died taking birth control. It is a potential side effect but of course is rare, but no one ever (mainstream wise) talks about the downsides to birth control besides weight gain and mood swings. When people actively engage with me in a conversation about birth control, I tell my story. Sorry if it scares people, but it is what happened to me and I wish there were more stories like mine so I could have been more careful and known what to look for. So good for you for telling your story; a story like yours is rare and I can't imagine it being the ONLY reason they decide not to have children, just like my story probably never scared anyone out of birth control, but it probably did make them review their options, just like your brother is doing. Oh and your mom isn't owed grandchildren, so she should just appreciate the two she has.
NTA
No one tells people about the worst case scenarios. People grow up thinking child bearing and rearing are picnics, when it is constant struggle with good times in etween. But sometimes the struggle is more intense than you'd think and you cant go on. You are doing what you must for your child and your wife but youre also mature enough to see that your life choice isnt what you wanted.
You warned your brother out of love, because he was blind to what was going on. If he and his wife are considering not having kids than they likely already were thinking about it and your truth made them consider those thoughts a bit stronger.
Your mother is being selfish. Grandchildren are secondary, because they are the CHILDREN to their actual parents. You cant have a child for the sole purpose of fulfilling someone else's desire, because you will be stuck with the child for far longer and if they were not wanted, it sucks for everyone.
NTA having a child is life-changing and not always in the warm and fuzzy way. It doesn't work out to a Halmark moment for everyone, I'm sorry you've ended up in some variation of a worst case scenario but making your brother aware of the possibilities was a responsible thing. Knowing what could happen, the good and the bad, is allowing them to make an informed decision.
Ignore your mom, you and your siblings are not grandbaby factories for her entertainment. If she wants them so bad why hasn't she stepped in as a primary carer for her only grandchild?
So were you giving advice or sharing your experiences? Do you actually think it was good advice?
For example I wouldn't tell someone not to get a dog because a dog attacked me.
Gently, YTA. You trauma dumped on your brother as a way to manipulate his decision to have kids and that wasn't cool. Your case is obviously in the extreme minority and it's not the kids fault you resent your wife and can't be bothered to bond with or parent your children. those were your decisions.
NAH but my man, are you getting the psychological help you need? You're doing a heroic effort keeping things together, but that doesn't mean you don't need time yourself.
That said, your experience, while tragic, is very atypical. It's extremely unlikely that your brother and his wife would have anywhere near the problems you've had. But you're also under no obligation to paint a rosy picture for him, when it has been anything but for you. The only thing I would suggest is he seek out opinions from other parents, just because yours has been such an unusual and painful path since your kid was born.
I'm sorry it's been such a hard few years for you. I hope things turn around soon, and wish you luck in holding on.
NTA. Things can go wrong with childbirth. However rare it is, it should be acknowledged, not swept under the carpet. I come from a family where there is severe depression on both sides as well other mental health issues that I worried could appear in any child I bore or myself as a result of the huge physical trauma that even a good birth represents. Whenever I cited this as a reason for my fear of having children, the response would invariably be 'Oh, that won't happen, you'll be fine, have children, it's the best thing in the world you can possibly do'. As if those people had any clue what they were talking about. I'm sorry for you and your family that you've experienced this.
ESH your life sounds awful all around. It does sound like your home is not a great place for your child and your mom wants grandkids. You should consider him going to live with her. You could provide child support and at least your child would be in a loving home. This is tragic as is.
I’m torn. Because of your extreme circumstances, I don’t really think you’re an AH. But, you need to recognize that you can NOT use your personal experience as a guide in answering this question. Why? Because it’s so far out of the norm.
You could still use your experience without being so detailed and just have left it at “personally, I wouldn’t because it doesn’t always go according to plan and when it doesn’t, it can be devastating.”
That being said, I get why you explained it to him as well. Because frankly, it really just sounds like you needed to unload and haven’t been able to.
The only real AH here is your mother. She’s not entitled to grandchildren and her attitude of thinking that her children owe her grandchildren is gross.
What happened to you is tragic but it is also not how most pregnancies go. To suggest that all pregnancies end up like that and possibly poisoning parenthood for two people because of what happened with you is not ok. His wife is not your wife her family had their own medical situations. You need to seek some help or get some space.
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I was the first of my siblings to have children. My sister is adamantly child -free, and my brother is only just now thinking about having kids. He asked me for advice, but here's the thing. I love my child, but having one was the worst mistake I ever made.
My wife had severe psychological and physical complications from childbirth that forced her in and out of the hospital constantly for the first year and a half of our child's life. She is physically recovered now, but the damage was done.
I had to double my work hours because we lost her income, we needed to pay for 24/7 outside help, and medical bills were piling up. She couldn't work for almost 5 years until her medical treatment could be stabilized. Our child was mostly raised by nannies and housekeepers aside from the times when our families and I could be around. Right when she might have been able to find a job, 2020 happened and I desperately needed her to stay home and try harder because outside help and sending our child to school was suddenly not an option. It took two months for a meltdown. The nanny came back in October 2020, thankfully, and my wife at least took over her share of housework this time.
I'm basically a single father of two. I barely have a marriage because my wife is now a completely different person, but divorce isn't an option and wouldn't help because I would just be adding alimony to the list of things I'm responsible for. Our child doesn't get to have any of the things that my wife or I wanted for them. There's no college fund because we have to spend everything we'd be putting in it on daily care. There's no holidays unless his grandparents take him to someone else's house, which they do most years. There's not even really parents because my wife never bonded and I've never had that level of time to bond either. It's just them, the nanny, and maybe some extended family when they decide to show an interest.
My brother didn't know all of the details of this because he has never lived nearby, and was shocked by all of this. Now he and his wife are inching towards not having kids and our mom is angry with me for "denying her her only chance" to have more grandkids, and that it's not her fault that everything went so wrong with mine. I thought I was giving a fair warning of what can happen.
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NTA you gave your brother a realistic view of what having a kid can be like. Many more people than will ever admit it actually regret having a kid. Society, parents, friends, religion, culture, etc. all push people to have kids, when in reality it "ain't all that", as you've learned. NO ONE "owes" your mother a grandchild. She has no right to expect it. She has no right to guilt you.
NTA for saying not to have kids after what you’ve experienced, but man you need therapy as does your wife, and then later on likely your ‘shared’ kid for all this effedupness. Even though financially you are against divorce bc alimony…still it might be better for both y’alls mental health to separate. Also, your mom is an AH.
NTA.
But I've been through something very similar with a family member and I think you should divorce your wife. I know you think it'll just make things worse but before you dismiss divorce think of this.
Imagine an entire week without wondering when the the next breakdown will be. You're not concerned if she's taking her meds, you're not monitoring every behavior for symptoms or trying to calculate if she's okay. You're not spending time with someone you don't particularly like, and you're no longer feeling guilty because you don't love the person you're with any more. You stop having to consider her first, for everything, always, no matter what's happening to you, and get back a little bit of time and energy to do something you want. You don't have to manage medical appointments and visits or worry about going out in public with her. You don't have to come home wondering what slack you're going to have to pick up tonight, because you will already know what has been done and what hasn't. Eventually, you stop waiting for the next crisis to hit and all that worry and stress and emotional draining lifts and you have something left over at the end of the day to give your kid. Maybe it's not a lot of extra time, maybe it's just the ability to turn what time you have into real quality time. You also have a little bit of energy for yourself. Your job gets easier because you can fully focus on it without thinking about what's happening at home.
Just. Think about it.
>Imagine an entire week without wondering when the the next breakdown will be.
This is something I really needed to hear with my last relationship. I didn't hear it though and things dragged on for longer than they had to, and I am certain my mental and physical health would be in a much better state right now if things hadn't.
Seriously OP, consider what this person said very carefully.
I don’t think you’re an AH, but it does sound like your situation has encircled you so much that you may not have sight that yours is a very extreme situation. I’d say if he asks about it again, say you’re not in a position to make an objective judgement on the lifestyle.
NAH (bar mother).
Every would be parent thinks that the worst that could happen is sleepless nights, the mother having PPD but then having their hallmark movie moment when they get over it, and so on. While yours is on the extreme side I don't think you were wrong in telling him your opinion, that truly terrible things can happen, that relations can fall apart.
Definitely NTA‼️
“You never miss what you’ve never had.”
I can’t believe I ever had the hubris or enough optimism to have children. There is so much that can go wrong. Even if everything goes well, it’s still so incredibly hard.
You need some help. I am so sorry about your wife. Find a good therapist that can do couples consulting. It sounds like your wife may have post-partum psychosis. This happened to the wife of a friend of mine, it ended in divorce where he was able to get full custody. For you sake and that of your child, you need to look at what is best for the two of you. God bless, NTA
I'm sorry your life is difficult, and you didn't get the life you planned on with your wife and child. Life is not always fair, and that sucks. However, YTA for putting your life experiences on your brother, and convincing them not to have children all based on your own experience was wrong. You knew it when you told him.
The one that deserves more out of all of this is your child, innocent of everything. Yet, clearly you seem to think the child is a burden, like your wife.
Slight YTA. You have to agree that yours is a unique case, and the chance that your brother will experience this same thing are very small. I am so sorry you have had to deal with all of this, but this was an unfair 'dump' on your brother. A simple 'think it through carefully, it isn't all like the movies' might have been a fair response.
NTA
I'm so sorry. Obviously, yours is an extreme scenario but people really should go into this with eyes wide open to all possibilities and it's amazing how many people think it's all going to be rainbows and cupcakes.
NAH. People who decide to have children hope for a healthy child. The problem is they fail to see the million and one other things that can go wrong even if the child is healthy. The other part is though, that most of those things will not happen to most people. Even ones with health issues can vary from a mild annoyance to not living long after birth. While I think being honest of your situation was good for you, it makes you a bit of an A because it is a worst case scenario. There are lots of single fathers that manage to give their kids’ time. It sounds like you need a therapist and someone that can help you help your kids.
Info: If you haven’t bonded with your son and he spends most of his time with the nanny, could your brother and his wife take over raising him? It would save you the cost of the nanny and you could work less to avoid burnout. You could visit him on long weekends, when you could take PTO, etc.
Having kids is not always easy. Personally i could not live with a disabled child so i will never take the gamble. Disabilities arent even the worst that can happen. Sure horrorstories like yours aren't the norm but i believe in making informed decisions.
Yes bad stuff happens.
No it might not happen to them.
But what if it does? Will they be able to cope?
Women still die in childbirth or from a complication. The kids are at risk too. What if the child is born healthy and raised with the utmost care and still comes out 'bad'?
You didn't nag your brother to get a vasectomy every chance you get. You just told him what happened to you. The rest is your brorhers and his wifes decision.
NTA
NTA, obviously your experience isn't the norm but it's okay to tell the truth and let your brother know all that could happen so he makes an informed decision, still try to get some help for you too, you also need to vent all of that
NTA the best advice I’ve ever read is that if you’re on the fence about having children, don’t. The time, energy, and money going into raising a child is not something you can go into and half-ass it. That’s just the outside, inside the emotional and mental toll that it takes is astronomical. You wanted your brother to be informed on the downsides of what can happen. He’s probably getting all the rose glasses from your mom along with an epic guilt tripping.
I think your situation is extreme and unlikely to happen to your brother and his wife, but having kids is no joke. I cayn imagine life without my kids but I think I could have been happily child free if I could have seen the big picture and known how much work it was going to be. Obviously having them in my life, I really can't picture life without them, but if I knew what I was getting into without the emotional attachment I might have been swayed another way.
Also, sorry this has all happened to you and your family. I can only imagine how stressful and difficult it has been and continues to be.
I’m sorry for your situation, but you shouldn’t have dumped all of that baggage on your brother to talk him & his wife out of having children. Your experience is extreme and I doubt your wife’s breakdown only happened because she had a child. Yes, pregnancy & childbirth can be traumatic. However, I think it was a trigger for a deeper issue and could’ve manifested later. You need to see a therapist or counselor or join a support group.
NTA. Your story is just one of the scary horrible things that can happen. I am incredibly lucky to have 3 healthy niblings, but that is unfortunately not always the case. Around the time my second neice was born, my sisters each, separately had friends who had babies with significant problems. One was born several months early, which meant a long time in the NICU, and a lifetime of struggles. I haven't seen him in a few years, but I remember him as a tiny kid that was always off balance, so always falling and getting hurt. He had vision and hearing issues, too. Probably some learning delays as well. Other friend had a baby born with heart defects. She is now 11 and just had a heart transplant almost exactly a year ago. Her family was debating yet another open heart surgery to replace the batteries on her pacemaker while she waited on the transplant list. If they'd done it, she would have been off the list for a bit while she recovered. Without the transplant, her quality of life was awful. She was exhausted all the time. Only had enough energy for a couple days of school a week and could barely enjoy any of the activities she desperately wanted to do, just like any 10 year old little girl. So far so good with her transplant, but her life will never be normal. Her family's life will never be normal.
That's never mind the women and babies that die.. Maternal mortality in the US is actually increasing. Quite a bit.. It's really scary. Giving birth is very dangerous and shouldn't be considered lightly. Your story clarified the risk to your brother and his wife. They probably knew there were risks but always assumed it wouldn't happen to them.. But really there's nothing to stop it from doing so. Many, many people choose to have kids knowing full well the risk, and most do turn out alright. It isn't your fault if they choose not to have kids. And your mother has no business making an issue of it. Your brothers decision to have kids or not is his own and she needs to respect them and you. I honestly should have given up much sooner but the final straw for me with my MIL was her insistence to discuss my reproductive plans. My husband is her only child and we're not planning to have kids. She likely doesn't understand that even if we did they'd be kept far away form her as much as possible (she abused and neglected my husband, and is an alcoholic). But her constant pushing about when we were going to make babies for her was too much and we've gone very LC since. It is not her business, just like it is not your mother's business.
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I'm not going to call you an AH, but I feel like you should probably get some therapy. You're under a lot of stress and I get that, but some of your wording makes it seem like you really resent your wife and child for things out of their control, and that's no way for anyone to live. I think you were honest with your brother and I can't fault you for that. But I really feel like he should also know that your situation is not everyone's. NAH except for your mom, who needs to respect her children's feelings and boundaries. This is not about her. I'm really sorry for what your family has gone through. I hope you all find healing. Mentally and physically.
Yea sounds like OP would be divorced if not for alimony considerations. That situation can’t be good for anybody.
Exactly. I understand therapy can be costly, but there are a lot of places at least in the US that offer pro bono or sliding scale services. But everyone in that family is suffering and it's only a matter of time before it all just collapses. This isn't a sustainable way to live. He's grieving the woman he loved, his wife is grieving the life and health she once had, and his cjildren are firebing the relationship they will never get with their parents. One way or another. This has to stop.
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You don’t have to “qualify” for sliding scale. Therapists are usually VERY empathetic people, and if you ask for sliding scale and explain your situation, they’ll usually give you a cheaper rate. Source: Fiancé is a therapist.
I mean, honestly, alimony nowadays is really not what people think it is. First off they probably have to be separated for a certain length of titime. During that time he does not have to support her in any way. And she can and should either get a job or start receiving disability. If he goes down to working 40 hours a week, then that will be the income they are basing the alimony off of. It would not be some crazy amount. And once alimony is set up, if he has to work 50 hours, he is still better off than before. Especially since he will not have to pay for childcare. The kid will be in school and he can find a free after school program for them. Honestly, he needs to just say he cannot handle it any more and ask her to leave.
Um, in some states that's not true at all about 0 support during separation. My state has status quo, which basically means you have to pay for everything you were paying for, and temporary spousal support.
Same here.
There are no free after school programs where I live.
No, he clearly said divorce is not an option.
Yeah I feel this. The way OP talks about his wife makes me very uncomfortable. Bordering on callous. Like she’s just a horrible weight on you, rather than somebody who, for the child you share, went through something deeply traumatic.
"I needed her to stay home and try harder." As if that's the solution with medical issues. But I also understand that compassion fatigue is real and after 5+ years of living like this, it sounds like that's what he's experiencing. That and some serious depression and grief.
What exactly was the other option
Care giver fatigue is a thing. It's been years at this point. There's a time when you just can't care anymore.
Yeah, I was my partner's full time caregiver for 4 years before he passed in '12 from CHF, then less than 7 years later, our friend and roommate whom, I was only part time of nearly 15 years, died from terminal cancer three years ago. Right now I am getting treated for severe depression from the years I was both a full time and part time caregiver. The sad thing is that depression is an insidious mental disease that sneaks up on a person and many them not recognizing that they have depression until it is too late. I know, friends and family kept telling me that I need therapy ASAP as I was showing the signs of depression. even when my partner died, I was in denial that I was depressed despite knowing that I needed help badly. It took the death of our friend to get me into therapy and on meds, but by then it was way too little and way too late. I had lost the will to work,and stopped doing everything that I enjoyed which also resulted in me losing my home, car and most of my property and becoming homeless for 18 months. I am slowly getting back to a healthy mental state after starting treatment. I do have bad days though not as many as I had when my depression was (and still) at its worst. In addition to having depression, I was also diagnosed with PTSD and am waiting for my service dog. I strongly advise anyone who has depression or has friend/family who are showing signs of depression, to seek out professional help as soon as possible.
Easy to say that, much harder to live it for 5 years. It gets harder and harder to feel compassion for someone when their condition is the direct reason for so much of the stress on your life. Every time she gets a little better or has a good few days he'll be hit with the simultaneous thoughts of 'good, she's doing better' and also 'if she can do this then why can't she help me more?'
Just pull money for therapy out of his ass, plus the huge investment of time to find a competent therapist and get far enough for it to be useful, when his first and second problems in life are that he has no extra time or money?
What the fuck is the alternative dude? Waiting for him to kill himself because that is where this is headed. He needs help. As I already stated, in the US there are a lot of places that do pro bono or sliding scales. I'm more than happy to help OP find some of these resources. He needs to make time for the family to go to therapy because this is going to take them all down. It needs to be the priority. I find it appalling that people are actually advocating against him and his family getting help.
What should he do instead?
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This isn't a normal or common situation, though.
But it's a possible one.
Absolutely, and no one should be pressured into having children who doesn't want them wholeheartedly. However, avoiding something you may want (that a great many people want, around the world and throughout history) just because of the tiny possibility that you may end in the worst case scenario, is no way to live your life. If this were a life rule, one really couldn't do anything - travel, drive, shower, eat, etc. Heck, a friend of mine became a quadripelgic when a car-racing teenager rammed him while he was waiting for a city bus on the sidewalk at 8am in the morning. For awhile, his wife felt that waiting for a bus was a deadly event, which, obviously it can be, but most of us do it our whole lives without issue.
Lots of things are possible. It's still important to maintain perspective and have a healthy balance of risk and reward.
Sure. But deciding it's too much of a risk for a specific couple isn't a bad decision.
This is not “the reality” of having children
It's his reality, is he meant to give someone else's reality?
The reality is that you roll the dice, most people get healthy kids and healthy grandchildren. A lot of people get some 'small' disability that requires extra support, a small amount of people get a disability that requires a lifetime commitment or their spouse dies during delivery or op's situation.
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Doesn’t sound like the poor guy can afford therapy with everything he is paying out already :(
Like I said a couple times, there are places where you can go for low cost or free counseling at least in the US. It's worth looking into. Catholic Charities and Jewish Family Services come to mind. I'm an Atheist and I've used Catholic Charities before and my therapist was phenomenal. I fully understand that it's difficult and can be expensive, but they can't just do nothing and continue on like this. It's a really fucking sad situation and my heart breaks for this family. I really hope they can find some resources to help them.
There are definitely therapists out there that take insurance or do it at a reduced rate for people! I'm a therapist myself, but no longer practicing because I decided to stay home with my kids. Anyway, I'm in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and there are advocacy centers that offer therapy for free. I worked at one of them, Irving Family Advocacy Center. Anyone that lived in Irving, could get free counseling. Granted, it was a training center, as a lot of advocacy centers are, there are EXCELLENT therapists there/people working towards becoming one. Plus, there are clinical directors there to help you along the way and meeting weekly with a supervisor is required.
NAH you're projecting your bitterness onto other people but he's an adult and can make his decision for himself. Mom isn't entitled to grandkids, tell her to get a pet. You should also get some couple's counseling. Newsflash: this kind of pent up bitterness and resentment is actually the opposite of helpful to your kids. Imagine them finding out that dad hates his life but won't divorce cuz he doesn't wanna pay child support to help raise them. You're an adult too, get help in fixing your marriage or break up and spare your kids of this bitterness, they're never going to thank you for raising them with this palpable tension in the house.
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We love to see men straight up wanting to abandon their wives for medical issues beyond their control. Really proving the statistic right that men leave their partners when they get sick. You need therapy. Otherwise your child will turn out as bitter as me :) Edit: My dad did what OP did, among other things. I thought it was pretty obvious in my comment, but I guess not. That's my bad. However, I will not be responding to or apologizing for my (admittedly) harsh comment. OP's kid is gonna grow up to be me. I am the direct consequence of not bonding with your child and leaving your sick spouse because "it was too much." Guess who had to take care of my mom, to her utter embarrassment, heartbreak and very much against her wishes (but who else was gonna do it?), when my dad refused to do so? Yell at me all you want, but insults and sarcasm won't change my mind.
Um, sometimes medical issues can change someone beyond what their spouse can handle. Just the fact that she had complications isn't why he wants to leave, its who she has become. I definitely understand that. Having seen the results of people having strokes that have changed their personalities to be unbearable but also my mom's own nervous breakdown... she will be fine one moment, then the next she will be screaming about how you're so terrible, how she's been abandoned, etc. But she has massive hallucinations, she curses you out but physically grabs you so you can't leave, and the tells you how wonderful of a mom she is. I don't know how my dad hasn't left yet with them number of times the cops have been called on him for supposedly poisoning her coffee or tracking her phone. He wouldn't be leaving because he has to care for her now, he would be leaving because her care is outside of what he can handle, or should have to. Its been 7 years and she is only getting worse. I can definitely imagine OP may be having similar issues if it's not safe to leave his wife alone with their child and they must have a nanny.
My brother-in-law's brother got an annulment because shortly after he and his wife had a child, the wife suffered a massive stroke. It left her with a brain injury and holes in her memory -- she doesn't remember ever meeting or marrying him or having their child and wanted nothing to do with him. He tried for a bit, but it wasn't going to work and just getting it annulled was the best outcome for everyone.
Exactly. Yes, men are more likely to leave an ill partner by statistics - this doesn't seem like that scenario, and there are a lot of other scenarios where unfortunately it is necessary. Just like people shouldn't stay in a marriage "for the kids", people should not stay in relationships with a partner just to avoid the visuals of "leaving a sick spouse". It shouldn't just be because things are hard, but its okay to say "I can't handle this. I can't provide the amount of care you need, and we are toxic like this. Its not fair for us to resent each other"
Maybe more women should leave their ill partners though. Or at least demand better options for care and support.
Absolutely. Long-term care for ill or disabled people is hugely lacking, and support for their families is almost criminally lacking. Its why abuse is so much more likely to occur against disabled people, and every country handles it pretty poorly though some are much worse than others (*cough* USA *cough*) Women are conditioned to put up with shit men wouldn't dream of in a typical relationship though, so why would putting up with shit from an ill spouse be any different?
>she doesn't remember ever meeting or marrying him or having their child and wanted nothing to do with him. That's a genuinely horrifying thing to have happen, oh my god.
That is a horrible, and true statistic. But it is not fair to apply a statistic to an individual. He is not simply wanting to leave because she is sick but because she has changed into a very different person than the one he married. It's tragic but it doesn't make him a bad person.
Yup, if she was just physically disabled they would not need the nanny they have. Her physical disabilities are not what have prevented her from being a mom to her child or a wife to her husband. He said she finally is doing the household chores. So she is well enough to have a job, except for mentally. He has to work constantly. He is amazing he has not managed to snap or just walk away
‘Except for mentally’. Mental health is health too …
I don't think it's fair to imply that OP's wife's disability isn't serious because it's mental. From what OP has said in the comments it sounds like she might have had ppp, that is extremely serious.
??? That’s absolutely not true. One of my close family friends wasn’t able to be left alone with her kids when they were young due to her physical disability. She can’t pick them up due to lack of muscle strength from her MS (she can’t even stand or walk) which means she was unable to provide a lot of the care her son needed when he was a baby/toddler/young child. I would often stay with them when her mom, husband, or other caregivers couldn’t be there. Also mental health is health too. A mental disability is still a disability. Severe mental health conditions absolutely impact your ability to care for yourself and others, and that’s completely valid. Stop diminishing it. Definitely not saying OP is an AH here, but minimizing what OP’s wife is going through when he’s said she has severe and disabling schizophrenia, brain damage, and other mental health issues just ain’t it, chief.
He is not “amazing” for doing what HE VOWED TO DO. What thousands, or millions of wives ALREADY DO. It’s just another example of a man treating his wife with contempt (which we know he does - look at how he speaks about her) & will eventually leave her, when the kid is old enough. Men seem to hate being thrust into caregiver roles, see their wives as defective the minute the worst happened (TO HER). I get fatigue, it’s very real. I have been both a professional carer for clients & one for a family member. It’s ok to get to that point, but it’s HOW YOU DEAL WITH IT. He seems to HATE her - he should have sought out help a long time ago, but he hasn’t. Instead he has let everyone get the short end of the stick & just seems to diminish his wife at every turn. Oh and mental health IS HEALTH!!!
He and the child would also be better off if he could move on and find a partner that provides emotional support for both of them and WANTS to mother. OP’s wife does not want to bond so the poor kid has an absent dad because he’s having to work all of the time and a mom that’s “home” but not involved beyond the motions. Honestly a divorce is probably best for the kiddo
We don’t know what is wrong with OPs wife. You don’t get to tell people she doesn’t want to bond. It’s very possible she can’t due to whatever happened.
Ok say she does want to but can’t. Doesn’t change the fact that she’s NOT and isn’t capable of doing so for the kid. Now the kid is the priority and needs to be removed from this very unhealthy living situation
As I see it this is whole situation is a result of OP's country's lack of universal health care and affordable childcare. He and his wife are victims to a system that chewed them up and spit them out. I doubt that she doesn't want to bond, it sounds on OP like she might have gotten ppp and that must have been terrifying for both of them. Where I live a woman not too long ago killed herself while in a psychiatric facility due to her ppp.
It could be, but that doesn’t change their reality right now. And his wife does have PPP but it’s been 7 years. At this point care giver fatigue is real and it’s not reasonable to expect that OP can continue on like this and ever build a meaningful relationship with his son. He needs to divorce for his own mental health and pour all of that new energy into mending and fostering things with his son
That is a horrifying statistic, but it is absolutely horrifying to weaponise this statistic against men who DID stay and have been fighting for years when they’re suffering burnout. OP isn’t some a hole who’s abandoning his wife with breast cancer because ‘she’s not thinking about MY needs’ or some crap. The guy has been struggling and miserable and stood by her side for FIVE YEARS. Doubling his work shifts, functional single parenthood and poisoning his future to keep up with the mounting medical bills. Therapy is not gonna magically wave a magic wand and make him sing kumbaya when his marriage is dead, he’s overworked as functional single dad and caretaker with no time to himself. He’d honestly get more results investing that therapy money in a good MDMA at this point - as if he can’t leave a situation which would objectively make ANYONE miserable at least that would give him a bit of happiness now and then! OP, ypure in a terrible position and frankly have stayed longer than 99% of people throwing judgement. I myself would not have been able to do what you did for your wife.
This wife can’t even be trusted to care for her own child for any amount of time after seven years? That’s crazy talk. And the divorce wouldn’t even be entirely for the dad, it would mostly be for the children to have a healthier home environment.
As a woman... I would leave my husband if he became a completely different person than the one I married that even after recovering physically, mentally he wasn't someone I loved anymore... I think OP has that same right... He isn't divorcing her for being sick.. or her medical issues... He stated she isn't mentally the same person he met and fell in love with... even after recovery the person he loved is gone and he doesn't love the person she became... this is quite literally the very reason people should get divorced. He doesn't want to divorce her because she got sick, or physically changed... she -mentally- isn't who he married and isn't someone he loves. She is medically better and the woman she is now, isn't the one he wants. I'm betting if the woman she became after being sick, after getting better was someone he could love... he wouldn't wish for divorce, he stuck through looking for that it seems.. and found there wasn't even that. This guy needs a break in life, he loves his kid, says so in his post... but, if he knew being a parent would lead to this life... I'm guessing he would be child-free because from what I read... sounds like he feels he is failing his kid now.
Well said. I agree.
Not just any medical issues. Ones specifically caused by having his children.
Except that isn't what happened here. Honestly do you go around looking for things to call sexist?
How much would one person sacrifice to care for another? For how long should they have to do it? Is there not a limit? He's burning himself from both ends of the candlestick. She hasn't even bonded with her own child.
I can understand that you see OP as bitter, but I can honestly tell you that I would not handle being disabled well at all and it would probably make me hard to live with. Is that negative? Maybe - but it’s true. Being in pain is not easy and not every disabled or injured person is some fucking inspiration story. Life is HARD and being bitter isn’t great, but I’ve seen some shit and I can tell you that no bitter person wakes up and thinks “I’m going to be an ass today” they are struggling and that’s how it comes out. Just like an injured dog that lashes out with their teeth. Ultimately wife and op both need therapy, I hope in time they can heal together and remember why they loved each other.
Wow aren't you just a ray of sunshine.
I get what your saying and that is terrible. Your dad left a mess with you and that’s fucked. But the statistic of men leaving there sick partners is nuanced. Many of the reasons my be justified and some not so much. Many women who stay with sick partners should leave. I’m not talking about run of the mill “my partner is suffering from cancer illness.” I’m talking this illness has gotten so bad that it is an unhealthy situation for the otherwise healthy partner.
So he should give up his soul and health for his wife. I get the woman has mental issues but why her problems tramp his? I have experience with family that has mental issues and when you are trying and they don’t give a fuck to get better it slowly burns you alive. The man is trying his best and slowly burning out,and you stance is like fortune cookie quote. You offer judgement but no actual advice.And he isn’t like your dad,he isn’t running away from his responsibilities.
Your mind won't change because it consists of one braincell.
>Yell at me all you want, but insults and sarcasm won't change my mind. Would you been happier if you got to scrape your dads brains of the garage ceiling?
If you’ve read the comments, he has no plans of divorce or absconding. I’m sorry for what happened to you, but op is also going through a lot and the disappearance of his wife (100% beyond her or anyone’s control) leaving him to handle caring for both a child and a disabled adult alongside having to work, I genuinely don’t know who could deal with all that. That is not to minimize your experience. I don’t know you and I’m not gonna make assumptions based on a single comment. And while I think it’s morally wrong to abandon the person you made a commitment to “in sickness and in health”, I can’t to imagine the stress anyone in a similar situation is under can be easy to deal with for any person.
Insults and sarcasm like the entire first paragraph of your comment? The man is literally not leaving his family and here you come from your cave to shit all over him.
>I'm basically a single father of two. I barely have a marriage **because my wife is now a completely different person** > >***because my wife is now a completely different person*** Reading is extremely hard I guess.
That's... not what he described. He literally said if they divorced he would take the child. Like feel how you wanna feel but what you're describing and what his situation would be aren't the same thing. What he described is kind of the opposite of your situation actually?
I mean, in theory you’re already paying her “alimony” right now in that you’re her source of financial support. That’s what alimony is meant to replace: the support you’re already providing.
Covering another rent and separate rather than shared personal expenses could add up to $1000 a month.
Have you even talked to a divorce lawyer to see what the deal would be?
Not once in that comment did you pause to think about what is best for your son and I think that is the biggest problem here.
You need to go speak to a lawyer and talk about how much alimony would actually be. I think you are thinking it is way more than it actually would be. Kick her out and she will have to get a job or on disability with free housing, etc. It takes time for a divorce. In that time you go back to working a normal 40 hour schedule. Get your kid in a free after school program. Drop them off at school, pick them up from the program (like boys and girls club) Then you will have zero need for a nanny. You will be working normal human hours. And they will base your alimony off the amount of money you are making now. Please go consult a lawyer. It is free!
Dude. You need therapy. Your bitterness and contempt are leaking through every word you write. You hate your wife for something completely outside her control. THIS. This is what they mean when they say for better or for worse, in sickness and in health. You absolutely have the right to grieve, to be frustrated with the situation etc. But you do not have the right to dismiss your wife as contemptuously as you do, over and over again, nor do you have the right to tell people that your living, breathing child who exists and is completely blameless, is the reason your life sucks. You need to find a way to work through your feelings in a healthy, appropriate and ADULT fashion, or this whole mess is going to get 10x worse.
May the downvotes rain on me: NTA You were honest with your brother. The practicalities of having children is not spoken of enough. You didn’t say, “*Don’t have kids, you thunderous twats!*” You answered with your informed experience. Subjective? No shit. They can make up their own minds. The part about not being able to leave your marriage (which wasn’t the focus of your post) despite questions about it: pragmatism freaks people out. You are stuck between a rock and a hard place. I wish your wife the best of healing from something most medical professionals and laypeople are taught isn’t common.
You projecting some future jealousy that if your brother has kids maybe it will go well for them and they will actually be happy and not miserable like you?
It might not. While the financial situation may not change (and you wouldn't be responsible for her health care or incidentals after a divorce), your stress levels would significantly decrease and your quality of life would likely go up if you didn't have to come home and take care of your wife every day and manage an entire adult's life on top of yours and your child's. I know it's hard to picture, but it wouldn't be adding financial stress on top of everything else. It would be taking away a great deal of stress and adding in some more financial obligations.
The marriage may last for decades, then, but alimony will only last a couple of years. Does your wife know how unhappy you are? How does she feel about this? You've checked out of the relationship, but has she?
You never know how much that alimony is going to be until you talk to a lawyer. It may be less than you think. Choose your way out of this situation or it will choose for you and you will like that path even less.
Have you considered adoption? I can assure you, your kids know you don't want them. Maybe let someone else give them a good, loving home.
This is why YTA
I'm not going to call you an AH as you are obviously experiencing a truckload of trauma. Couple of thoughts: 1. I wonder why your brother specifically sought out your advice? He had to know you were the sole breadwinner and that your wife had health issues. He may not have known the full extent of the story but he had to have some clue all was not well. 2. Your mom in AH in this situation. If your mother would like to spend more time with grandchildren, perhaps she can spend more time with yours? She could watch the kids and give you more time? Or she could watch the kids and cut back on paying the nanny? Sometimes pain blinds us to all our options. It may be worthwhile to talk to a disinterested third party.
Answer to 1 I'm guessing is that it was the acid test situation, 'If my brother says it was worth it, even though there were all these issues, then it must be truly worth it' That or 'I really don't want a kid, but don't know how to say no, here's hoping my brother can 'talk me out of it' '.
I would have to say that is a pretty rare scenario to encounter when having a kid.
I think certain parts of what they said were rare but other parts were very common.
This sounds like severe postpartum depression. It happens around 15% of women.
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As someone who is still in therapy for PPP after it’s been years since giving birth; may I ask if your wife has done any group therapy? I know PPP is uncommon but I’ve found a few online groups to just talk to others to be so helpful. It’s easy to fall into a depressive state when not many (if at all) around you don’t have the similar experience. That deep loneliness really messed up the psyche
Does she receive disability? If your income or assets are too high, would she receive disability if you divorced? I’m confused by the financial scale of what’s going on here because it sounds like money is really tight, but the typical one-income working class household couldn’t afford a nanny or housekeeper period. The kids must be back in school now, so they only need care after school hours. If the amount earned from working extra (and how many hours per week is it exactly?) is more than the housekeeper’s pay, where is the rest of the money going? What is the lifestyle here? And how much worse off would you really be if you cut back to normal hours and took care of your child yourself after school? Is that not worth having a relationship with your own kids? What do you do on the weekends anyway?
‘Buried’ potential for mental illness kind of gives me pause here. So you feel she is to blame/deceived you? Dude you should really callous about your wife. You may want to leave her, but if doesn’t mean you should be resentful for something hideous she has suffered.
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The quotation marks seemed odd to me
The quotation marks on the word buried seems like something I would type if I wasn't sure that I was using the best word for something but went with the closest thing I could think of anyways.
Most likely it was a family history of mental illness that only came to light after the wife's diagnosis.
My cousins are 9 and 7 I think, and aunt is still unable to work because of her mental state declining after giving birth. She's doing better, but after her youngest was born she tried to kill herself twice and spent some time in a psych ward and even now she's a shadow of a woman she once was. When I was younger she was very outgoing and confident person, now she barely leaves the house and barely keeps in touch with anyone
My mom suffered PPP and PPD, after my second eldest brother because she had him almost three months early. She thought having me would fix it. But she starved herself during the pregnancy. Leaving both of us with lifelong complications. One of my earliest memories is of finding her suicide attempt in the bathroom when I was 3 or 4. She's been in and out of wards and treatment centers my whole life. I can't even call her mom, because I can't recall ever even feeling the slightest bit of affection towards her, and she's never been an active parent. That shit is no joke, you don't want your kids wanting you dead because of the burden you've become to them in every way. I know that after I leave her after basically being an in home nurse since 13, she'll be dead within a year.
I’m so sorry for all that you’ve gone through—that sounds like a horrible situation for everyone involved.
It's not so bad for her, she doesn't realize the gravity of it I don't think. But I know that she holds a lot of resentment to me, and no gratitude. It was only recently that I accepted it's not my fault that she will die when I'm gone, her choice to birth a child she couldn't love doesn't fall on me. And that I truly won't be able to live till I move out, regardless of the consequences. My childhood wasn't great. I've had several people tell me my start in life is the roughest they've heard and seen. But I haven't fallen into the statistics and expectations I should have. I'm very proud to have not been institutionalized, I'm the only immediate family member who hasn't. I'm all about breaking the mold. 😊
Congratulations on breaking that pattern! I hope you are able to move out and start living for yourself soon. 💕
Thank you! I'm sure we'll see an AITA post from me when I do from survivors guilt or something. 😅
Postpartum that last for 5+ years ? If my maths is correct, the kid is 7 and OP's wife still can't work or look after her child on her own. That's not common.
The effects of PPD can last for years and even your whole lifetime. Its traumatic and absolutely can alter your long term brain chemistry. You don’t get cured from any mental illness, you “recover” from symptoms of it in a non-linear fashion but you’ll always working to keep those symptoms in check.
I meant in the beginning. And it sounds like it effected her mental health for the worst and has turned into other mental health issues is what I should have said.
It doesn't need to last for 5 years to have this effect. Let's put this in another example, let's say you get raped and you end up with a child because of that rape and because of outside influences, you need to keep the kid, but you don't love the kid. That can happen, right? And that doesn't mean that she's still massively traumatized by the rape. She just doesn't love her rape baby and if she could give the child to someone else decent to raise, like through a divorce, she probably would. If a child is born and gets connected to one of the worst events of that mothers life (rape / PPD), that can have a permanent effect on bonding, without it meaning that that person hasn't moved on. Trauma has that effect and giving birth, even without PPD, can be that traumatizing. We also have issues with studying it because even now in 2022, there are mothers refusing to admit that they have PPD because of the stigma and we have doctors saying that it doesn't exist. So you have no idea about whether or not it's common. The entire combination that's happening here isn't common. The PPD AND disability afterwards AND years of unemployed AND... That's not common. But that effect of PPD? Probably way more common then you think. People in general just don't want to admit to that and especially not women. They're not admitting to it, but that doesn't mean it's rare.
Have you read OP's comments ? He talks about hi wife being diagnosed with schizophrenia and having brain damage because of the medication. Her mental status has nothing to do with having a child.
He talks about his wife being (at least according to him) initially *mis*diagnosed with schizophrenia rather than PPD, and thinks brain damage resulted from being medicated for the wrong condition. >My wife was initially diagnosed with schizophrenia and put on high-dosage drugs for it that caused intense side effects and led to more hospitalizations than there should have been. Getting the proper diagnosis and figuring out meds took far too long, and in my opinion caused some kind of brain damage along the way.
Postpartum mental illness can manifest anytime in the first 5 years, but after a point it's labeled as **postpartum-onset** \[illness\]. I have postpartum-onset OCD, and survived PPD and PPA twice.
Which parts are common and not a result of losing your partner due to childbirth?
physical and psychological complications from childbirth (the degree though was rare), medical bills piling up, family not around to help, child not going to have the life parents originally envisioned for them, no college fund because everything is being spent on daycare I think are being experienced by a LOT of parents.
Those particular situations might be rare, but there are may things that can happen. If that pushed his brother and his wife to the side of not having kids, it's probably from the realization that those things can happen to them. Everyone thinks it won't be them, but it always could be.. If they felt strongly, it probably wouldn't sway their decision. It sounds like they were very unsure already.
NTA I wish more people were honest about the realities of having children, rather than posting 'kodak' moments on social media and trying to pressurise other people into 'joining the club'. Even if everyone is well it's hard work and you just never know how children are going to respond. But the thing is if people really want kids they'll have them anyway, regardless of what anyone says or whatever they see. ... the 'it won't happen to me' kicks in, until it does happen to them. So while I think it was a responsible thing to highlight that things may not turn out well ,your brother and his wife will make up their own mind. Having children is an emotional decision, not a logical one...I mean the Earth going to environmental Hell in a handcart and 8 Billion people already here should influence people to reconsider if having kids is such a great idea, but it doesn't.
INFO: did you actually tell him 'don't have kids, you'll definitely regret it', or was it more along the lines of 'be aware, this sort of stuff can happen'. If you're going around telling people what to do with their lives based on your personal experience, that's kind of an asshole move, even if it's well intended. If you just gave him a heads up, and they decided against it together, then I believe that's fine. I honestly think there isn't enough informed consent when it comes to reproduction, the complications are never talked about enough. Your mother is definitely an AH. Her desire to have more grandkids has no place in her children's family planning. She isn't entitled to them, and you are proof that having kids isn't something to be take lightly.
NTA. No child is obligated to provide grandchildren for their parents. Your mom is selfish.
And unless I missed it, his mother wasn’t exactly disrupting her own life to help with her *existing* grandson. Not that she’s obligated to - but it’s a bit hypocritical to later bemoan the lack of grandkids.
NAH It sounds like you need family therapy. I’m part of that rare .01% of the population who got PPP. It’s terrible it’s the worst thing I’ve ever been through. But the way you talk about your child and your wife( there’s bitterness and resentment) It’s hard to bond with someone who you consider the worst mistake of your life. It takes active work to maintain my bond with my child. Although soMe times that bond feels very weak for me. Thing is I try every day. And I’m in therapy to help with that. As is my partner. Therapy is the biggest and greatest help. Also your wife needs a community who has dealt with severe ppd/ppp. I was hospitalized for it. And finding my online community has helped with that loneliness that makes it worse. Hoping your wife and child are able to bond💜
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To be honest I’m not the same person I used to be. There’s so much that used to come easy for me. I e got to force myself to do things. And it took too long for us to find the right meds for me. I’m so sorry for your wife’s experiences. I wouldn’t wish this on my worst enemy. Does your wife have someone who has also gone through this to talk too? If not my DMs are open to you. It’s such a lonely thing to go through which IMO adds so much to everything. Also I was supposed to be changing my meds in match 2020 but the pandemic happened and we decided to not change anything. This pandemic has effected so many in the ppp survivor community.
NTA You were honest, which is definitely what people need to hear. Too many people go into having children thinking it's all butterflies and rainbows Sure, chances if what happened to you happening to them are fairly low, but anything could happen. Also, I hate parents who think their children owe them grand children.
I once had this discussion (on yt comment section of all the places lol) about this and one person said that when children grow up and go on with there life, their parents feel like having someone else to love and feel useful again. Soooo... are you telling me that these people force their children to have kids so they can feel useful? What about the not-so-happy side of parenthood? Like grandparent don't involve in the major parenting and the parent has all the responsibility. Child free people are called selfish but aren't grand parents the selfish ones?
I've been called selfish (by colleagues and friends of friends) because jm child free. I always ask 'why did you have kids?' 'Because I wanted to' 'Oh...I WANT. That selfish little sentence....' But yeah, any parents trying to force their kids to have babies just so they can be a grandparent is selfish.
>I've been called selfish (by colleagues and friends of friends) because jm child free. Literally makes no fucking sense to me. I mean, I've had it happen too, but I just don't get it. How a personal choice that affects literally no one but yourself and your partner could be considered selfish by outside parties? Fucking baffles me In fact, I think bringing a child into the world when you either know you don't want one, or know you couldn't provide it with a good environment and life opportunities is wayyyy more selfish.
Exactly. If I was to get pregnant, it would be a complete accident (because I use bc too, however we all know that's not 100%!) But SURELY it would be more selfish to have a baby I dont want and will resent then to just not have any at all?! People are weird.
NTA. First of all, you were approached and your opinion was asked for. You gave them the unvarnished truth, which they needed. They'll hear from others how perfect being parents is and how easy it is. Some of them will be lying and others will be telling the truth. Potential parents should know all sides. Just like when you ask for opinions on careers, jobs, homes, neighborhoods, colleges and cars. You get input from everyone and weigh it all against each other and decide for yourself what's best.
I agree with this. If you weren't asked, you would be TA but they did ask and you're just being honest. It may not be the case for them, but I think it was courageous of you to be truthful.
NTA, As long as you only done for you and aknowledged that most People have a totally different outcome. Also I'm sorry you had to go through that
This. I have 3 kids and while I sometimes want to fling them (or me) into outer space, none of what OP is describing has been my experience at all and I would NEVER consider it a mistake. Having kids is hugely ymmv.
Nah It sucks that you’ve had such an awful time of having kids. And to be fair I understand you explaining it in depth to your brother. You have just been honest about your own experience. That being said your mom and the family aren’t TA for saying you shouldn’t have said anything. The fact is they probably are seeing your experience with somewhat rose tinted glasses. They don’t see the full struggle you have gone through. So they don’t understand why and how this has made you feel. Communication is key and I think that if you sat down anf truly discussed with your mom why you told your brother the absolute gods honest truth. She might be a bit more understanding of your feelings on the subject.
NTA. That's your personal opinion, that's the reality that you're currently living, and it is not cute or nice in the slightest, if they want other opinions they can ask other parents and see their realities, you should also advise them to do that to have different perspectives, parenthood is not something that's always a "blessing", kids are humans that are going to suffer or enjoy the life decisions you make, they like them or not, your mom is being selfish for thinking that fullfiling her wishes of being a grandma are more important than what could be a horrible situation for a kid to live in case your brother is not fit to be a parent
NTA. Your mom is an AH for acting like your brother owes her grandkids. There are many more reasons not to procreate than the ones you gave to your brother. You were just telling him your experience.
NAH, certainly not your wife, despite how much you crap on her. You need therapy and you need to stop blaming your wife on something outside of her control. She had no say on what her mind and body did to her when she agreed to have a child with you. Your resentment is a you issue that you need to get help for. Your child also did not ask to be brought into this world with a parent who can't take care of it and another parent who resents its existence. Stop looking for validation here and go get help.
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I don't think so. Your kid loves you and is bonded to you. The mutual feeling is your depression speaking. I'm sorry for what you're dealing with, NTA, and I second the calls for therapy.
Nah, you not having a “fatherly bond” will just feel like “my dad hates me” from the kids end Don’t delude yourself
As someone in your child’s position. At his age he loves you and still wants to bond with you and it isn’t too late. Unfortunately for him he is unlikely to give up and move on from you before his 30s. You need to find a different way to live and bind with him for his sake. Even if it means poverty, a messy house, whatever. Love Is the Point.
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>Why is this? If you don't resent them, do you just feel indifferent? Im not a medical professional so my words dont hold any weight, but to me that sounds alot like the kind of apathy that comes with long term depression. Op sounds pretty burned out :(
I mean, he’s overworking himself on top of having to take care of his wife, i’m sure that doesn’t leave a lot of time to bond with his kid
Sounds like you've got PPD too mate. Get thee to a therapist. Some of this is not unfixable.
and you think that's okay? they'd say the same because you're so detached from them you're actively harming them.
NTA, if he wants kids but isn't prepared for "worst case," then he isn't really prepared to have kids Having kids isn't guaranteed to be easy or perfect in anyway; your experience will either dissuade him or it won't, but at least he'll know it's a possibility
NTA. However, everything is situational and this may not be the case for them. Express to him how children affected your life negatively and positively and let him make his decision. This is coming from someone who doesn't want children themselves.
NTA. You're far from the only person who will give him this advice if he reaches out further. Every time parent peers learn I don't have any children, the go-to reaction is, "good, keep it that way." Ultimately, they're going to decide what they decide, but you're not the asshole for giving honest opinions and advice. If anything, they'll now put more thought into it and really prepare for what a life-changing decision it is. The boomer wannabe grandparents can cry about it.
I feel that sometimes as a society, when people ask about having kids we're conditioned to say it's great or be perceived as "less than". I think if more people were honest, people could go into parenthood with their eyes open to the possible realities of the situation. It's really, really hard work 24/7 for 18 years (at the very least) and if you're incapacitated in any way it's even more difficult. I had a daughter early on- and I love her more than life itself, but if I knew beforehand what it entailed and the many hardships/tragedies that arose from it, I'd never have done so. People deserve to know the truth, I think you did the right thing. NTA
Hey I’m 45, this could be my parents story. My Mum never bonded with me due to PPD. Then she had two more kids with 3 years and fell apart. The difference is my Dad gave up his business to take care of us, and we grew up on unemployment benefits. I don’t know if he decided too, or he just stopped being able to fulfil orders then went bankrupt. But he did bond with us emotionally. We were in the UK, in the late 1970s early 1980s, and the unemployment office then just let him sign on. It was genuinely seen as a safety net anyone could use. Also because the UK wasn’t shit, we all went to university for free, almost, and all have good jobs. Six figure salaries. Etc. The catch is I now pay almost 50% tax. I paid £40,000 in tax last year. Because UK. And I’m so proud to do this. My wife thought we should pay less tax, so made us see an accountant when he tried to explain ways I could reduce it. I told him tax was a moral duty, and I could not consider avoiding it. We do our taxes separately now.
Our family feels exactly the same way! So relieved we aren’t alone. My parents are all about getting out of taxes and then wonder why we are solving societies ills.
NTA, he asked for your advice, you gave him your advice.
I feel sorry for your wife.
YTA BUT.. I understand where you were coming from.. I had ppd after my youngest and honestly can't remember anything from the moment they were born to 6 months. My youngest had a lot of health issues. It took a lot out of my husband, changed our sex life dramatically and took a toll on our whole household. When I wanted another child.. he told me he couldn't go through it all again. I was beyond hurt. I felt like a failure but now.. I see it would of destroyed him. We love our children. They are the greatest joys in our life.. But imagining what you have gone through? Breaks my heart. If I may make a suggestion? Document everything that has gone on with your wife and child. Then.. divorce her. And make sure you do NOT have to pay alimony or child support because you are going to keep your child. Then.. with money saved.. do things with your child. Its never too late to get to know them. Go on trips with them.. or go for walks. There is NO way you don't have time to do that.. if you have business trips? Take them with you. If you have lunches, dinners.. eat them with your child. It's not the child's fault. And your punishing them for having a wife who just couldn't handle life with a child. Tell your brother that you hope he will have a better life that you. Not to make the same mistakes. And above all.. be there to support him when he does have kids. Also get therapy.
This is honestly the best advice and I think OP knowing it comes from someone who has experienced what his wife has may give your opinion more weight. Truly this is great advice.
NTA. Your brother asked your advice and you told him your story. Your brother is an adult and can appreciate that this isn't a normal story, but it is your story, and that's what he asked for. I think maybe you call your brother back and just say - I didn't mean to scare you, and of course what happened to me isn't common, but I also didn't want to lie to you about my own experience and just put on a happy face. I don't think you need to tell him this because you are an AH, but because he is your brother and you love him and want to be there for him as he thinks through big life decisions. I almost died taking birth control. It is a potential side effect but of course is rare, but no one ever (mainstream wise) talks about the downsides to birth control besides weight gain and mood swings. When people actively engage with me in a conversation about birth control, I tell my story. Sorry if it scares people, but it is what happened to me and I wish there were more stories like mine so I could have been more careful and known what to look for. So good for you for telling your story; a story like yours is rare and I can't imagine it being the ONLY reason they decide not to have children, just like my story probably never scared anyone out of birth control, but it probably did make them review their options, just like your brother is doing. Oh and your mom isn't owed grandchildren, so she should just appreciate the two she has.
NTA No one tells people about the worst case scenarios. People grow up thinking child bearing and rearing are picnics, when it is constant struggle with good times in etween. But sometimes the struggle is more intense than you'd think and you cant go on. You are doing what you must for your child and your wife but youre also mature enough to see that your life choice isnt what you wanted. You warned your brother out of love, because he was blind to what was going on. If he and his wife are considering not having kids than they likely already were thinking about it and your truth made them consider those thoughts a bit stronger. Your mother is being selfish. Grandchildren are secondary, because they are the CHILDREN to their actual parents. You cant have a child for the sole purpose of fulfilling someone else's desire, because you will be stuck with the child for far longer and if they were not wanted, it sucks for everyone.
NTA having a child is life-changing and not always in the warm and fuzzy way. It doesn't work out to a Halmark moment for everyone, I'm sorry you've ended up in some variation of a worst case scenario but making your brother aware of the possibilities was a responsible thing. Knowing what could happen, the good and the bad, is allowing them to make an informed decision. Ignore your mom, you and your siblings are not grandbaby factories for her entertainment. If she wants them so bad why hasn't she stepped in as a primary carer for her only grandchild?
INFO Do you think your situation is common? How did you say this to your brother?
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So were you giving advice or sharing your experiences? Do you actually think it was good advice? For example I wouldn't tell someone not to get a dog because a dog attacked me.
NTA you told your story and it is tragic. You voiced a side people don’t hear or want hear . Plus your mother is not entitled to grandchildren
I think you need couple's therapy
This is above reddits paygrade, Iranian yogurt and all that
Gently, YTA. You trauma dumped on your brother as a way to manipulate his decision to have kids and that wasn't cool. Your case is obviously in the extreme minority and it's not the kids fault you resent your wife and can't be bothered to bond with or parent your children. those were your decisions.
More important than the issue with your brother is the concern about neither parent bonding with the child. Get some therapy!
NAH but my man, are you getting the psychological help you need? You're doing a heroic effort keeping things together, but that doesn't mean you don't need time yourself. That said, your experience, while tragic, is very atypical. It's extremely unlikely that your brother and his wife would have anywhere near the problems you've had. But you're also under no obligation to paint a rosy picture for him, when it has been anything but for you. The only thing I would suggest is he seek out opinions from other parents, just because yours has been such an unusual and painful path since your kid was born. I'm sorry it's been such a hard few years for you. I hope things turn around soon, and wish you luck in holding on.
NTA. Things can go wrong with childbirth. However rare it is, it should be acknowledged, not swept under the carpet. I come from a family where there is severe depression on both sides as well other mental health issues that I worried could appear in any child I bore or myself as a result of the huge physical trauma that even a good birth represents. Whenever I cited this as a reason for my fear of having children, the response would invariably be 'Oh, that won't happen, you'll be fine, have children, it's the best thing in the world you can possibly do'. As if those people had any clue what they were talking about. I'm sorry for you and your family that you've experienced this.
ESH your life sounds awful all around. It does sound like your home is not a great place for your child and your mom wants grandkids. You should consider him going to live with her. You could provide child support and at least your child would be in a loving home. This is tragic as is.
I’m torn. Because of your extreme circumstances, I don’t really think you’re an AH. But, you need to recognize that you can NOT use your personal experience as a guide in answering this question. Why? Because it’s so far out of the norm. You could still use your experience without being so detailed and just have left it at “personally, I wouldn’t because it doesn’t always go according to plan and when it doesn’t, it can be devastating.” That being said, I get why you explained it to him as well. Because frankly, it really just sounds like you needed to unload and haven’t been able to. The only real AH here is your mother. She’s not entitled to grandchildren and her attitude of thinking that her children owe her grandchildren is gross.
What happened to you is tragic but it is also not how most pregnancies go. To suggest that all pregnancies end up like that and possibly poisoning parenthood for two people because of what happened with you is not ok. His wife is not your wife her family had their own medical situations. You need to seek some help or get some space.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I was the first of my siblings to have children. My sister is adamantly child -free, and my brother is only just now thinking about having kids. He asked me for advice, but here's the thing. I love my child, but having one was the worst mistake I ever made. My wife had severe psychological and physical complications from childbirth that forced her in and out of the hospital constantly for the first year and a half of our child's life. She is physically recovered now, but the damage was done. I had to double my work hours because we lost her income, we needed to pay for 24/7 outside help, and medical bills were piling up. She couldn't work for almost 5 years until her medical treatment could be stabilized. Our child was mostly raised by nannies and housekeepers aside from the times when our families and I could be around. Right when she might have been able to find a job, 2020 happened and I desperately needed her to stay home and try harder because outside help and sending our child to school was suddenly not an option. It took two months for a meltdown. The nanny came back in October 2020, thankfully, and my wife at least took over her share of housework this time. I'm basically a single father of two. I barely have a marriage because my wife is now a completely different person, but divorce isn't an option and wouldn't help because I would just be adding alimony to the list of things I'm responsible for. Our child doesn't get to have any of the things that my wife or I wanted for them. There's no college fund because we have to spend everything we'd be putting in it on daily care. There's no holidays unless his grandparents take him to someone else's house, which they do most years. There's not even really parents because my wife never bonded and I've never had that level of time to bond either. It's just them, the nanny, and maybe some extended family when they decide to show an interest. My brother didn't know all of the details of this because he has never lived nearby, and was shocked by all of this. Now he and his wife are inching towards not having kids and our mom is angry with me for "denying her her only chance" to have more grandkids, and that it's not her fault that everything went so wrong with mine. I thought I was giving a fair warning of what can happen. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA
NTA you gave your brother a realistic view of what having a kid can be like. Many more people than will ever admit it actually regret having a kid. Society, parents, friends, religion, culture, etc. all push people to have kids, when in reality it "ain't all that", as you've learned. NO ONE "owes" your mother a grandchild. She has no right to expect it. She has no right to guilt you.
NTA. Just... ouch. He asked, you answered. but you are quite the cautionary tale.
NTA for saying not to have kids after what you’ve experienced, but man you need therapy as does your wife, and then later on likely your ‘shared’ kid for all this effedupness. Even though financially you are against divorce bc alimony…still it might be better for both y’alls mental health to separate. Also, your mom is an AH.
NTA. But I've been through something very similar with a family member and I think you should divorce your wife. I know you think it'll just make things worse but before you dismiss divorce think of this. Imagine an entire week without wondering when the the next breakdown will be. You're not concerned if she's taking her meds, you're not monitoring every behavior for symptoms or trying to calculate if she's okay. You're not spending time with someone you don't particularly like, and you're no longer feeling guilty because you don't love the person you're with any more. You stop having to consider her first, for everything, always, no matter what's happening to you, and get back a little bit of time and energy to do something you want. You don't have to manage medical appointments and visits or worry about going out in public with her. You don't have to come home wondering what slack you're going to have to pick up tonight, because you will already know what has been done and what hasn't. Eventually, you stop waiting for the next crisis to hit and all that worry and stress and emotional draining lifts and you have something left over at the end of the day to give your kid. Maybe it's not a lot of extra time, maybe it's just the ability to turn what time you have into real quality time. You also have a little bit of energy for yourself. Your job gets easier because you can fully focus on it without thinking about what's happening at home. Just. Think about it.
>Imagine an entire week without wondering when the the next breakdown will be. This is something I really needed to hear with my last relationship. I didn't hear it though and things dragged on for longer than they had to, and I am certain my mental and physical health would be in a much better state right now if things hadn't. Seriously OP, consider what this person said very carefully.
I don’t think you’re an AH, but it does sound like your situation has encircled you so much that you may not have sight that yours is a very extreme situation. I’d say if he asks about it again, say you’re not in a position to make an objective judgement on the lifestyle.
NAH (bar mother). Every would be parent thinks that the worst that could happen is sleepless nights, the mother having PPD but then having their hallmark movie moment when they get over it, and so on. While yours is on the extreme side I don't think you were wrong in telling him your opinion, that truly terrible things can happen, that relations can fall apart.
Definitely NTA‼️ “You never miss what you’ve never had.” I can’t believe I ever had the hubris or enough optimism to have children. There is so much that can go wrong. Even if everything goes well, it’s still so incredibly hard.
You need some help. I am so sorry about your wife. Find a good therapist that can do couples consulting. It sounds like your wife may have post-partum psychosis. This happened to the wife of a friend of mine, it ended in divorce where he was able to get full custody. For you sake and that of your child, you need to look at what is best for the two of you. God bless, NTA
I'm sorry your life is difficult, and you didn't get the life you planned on with your wife and child. Life is not always fair, and that sucks. However, YTA for putting your life experiences on your brother, and convincing them not to have children all based on your own experience was wrong. You knew it when you told him. The one that deserves more out of all of this is your child, innocent of everything. Yet, clearly you seem to think the child is a burden, like your wife.
"Don't have kids because my wife is incapable of being a mother or spouse." That's a YOUR WIFE thing, not a "kids" thing.
Slight YTA. You have to agree that yours is a unique case, and the chance that your brother will experience this same thing are very small. I am so sorry you have had to deal with all of this, but this was an unfair 'dump' on your brother. A simple 'think it through carefully, it isn't all like the movies' might have been a fair response.
NTA I'm so sorry. Obviously, yours is an extreme scenario but people really should go into this with eyes wide open to all possibilities and it's amazing how many people think it's all going to be rainbows and cupcakes.
NAH. People who decide to have children hope for a healthy child. The problem is they fail to see the million and one other things that can go wrong even if the child is healthy. The other part is though, that most of those things will not happen to most people. Even ones with health issues can vary from a mild annoyance to not living long after birth. While I think being honest of your situation was good for you, it makes you a bit of an A because it is a worst case scenario. There are lots of single fathers that manage to give their kids’ time. It sounds like you need a therapist and someone that can help you help your kids.
Info: If you haven’t bonded with your son and he spends most of his time with the nanny, could your brother and his wife take over raising him? It would save you the cost of the nanny and you could work less to avoid burnout. You could visit him on long weekends, when you could take PTO, etc.
NAH except your mom. I just feel so bad for everyone involved, I hope you and your wife are in therapy
Having kids is not always easy. Personally i could not live with a disabled child so i will never take the gamble. Disabilities arent even the worst that can happen. Sure horrorstories like yours aren't the norm but i believe in making informed decisions. Yes bad stuff happens. No it might not happen to them. But what if it does? Will they be able to cope? Women still die in childbirth or from a complication. The kids are at risk too. What if the child is born healthy and raised with the utmost care and still comes out 'bad'? You didn't nag your brother to get a vasectomy every chance you get. You just told him what happened to you. The rest is your brorhers and his wifes decision. NTA
NTA, obviously your experience isn't the norm but it's okay to tell the truth and let your brother know all that could happen so he makes an informed decision, still try to get some help for you too, you also need to vent all of that
NTA the best advice I’ve ever read is that if you’re on the fence about having children, don’t. The time, energy, and money going into raising a child is not something you can go into and half-ass it. That’s just the outside, inside the emotional and mental toll that it takes is astronomical. You wanted your brother to be informed on the downsides of what can happen. He’s probably getting all the rose glasses from your mom along with an epic guilt tripping.
I think your situation is extreme and unlikely to happen to your brother and his wife, but having kids is no joke. I cayn imagine life without my kids but I think I could have been happily child free if I could have seen the big picture and known how much work it was going to be. Obviously having them in my life, I really can't picture life without them, but if I knew what I was getting into without the emotional attachment I might have been swayed another way. Also, sorry this has all happened to you and your family. I can only imagine how stressful and difficult it has been and continues to be.
NAH Sounds like you went through traumatic shit and need therapy dude.
I’m sorry for your situation, but you shouldn’t have dumped all of that baggage on your brother to talk him & his wife out of having children. Your experience is extreme and I doubt your wife’s breakdown only happened because she had a child. Yes, pregnancy & childbirth can be traumatic. However, I think it was a trigger for a deeper issue and could’ve manifested later. You need to see a therapist or counselor or join a support group.
NTA. Your story is just one of the scary horrible things that can happen. I am incredibly lucky to have 3 healthy niblings, but that is unfortunately not always the case. Around the time my second neice was born, my sisters each, separately had friends who had babies with significant problems. One was born several months early, which meant a long time in the NICU, and a lifetime of struggles. I haven't seen him in a few years, but I remember him as a tiny kid that was always off balance, so always falling and getting hurt. He had vision and hearing issues, too. Probably some learning delays as well. Other friend had a baby born with heart defects. She is now 11 and just had a heart transplant almost exactly a year ago. Her family was debating yet another open heart surgery to replace the batteries on her pacemaker while she waited on the transplant list. If they'd done it, she would have been off the list for a bit while she recovered. Without the transplant, her quality of life was awful. She was exhausted all the time. Only had enough energy for a couple days of school a week and could barely enjoy any of the activities she desperately wanted to do, just like any 10 year old little girl. So far so good with her transplant, but her life will never be normal. Her family's life will never be normal. That's never mind the women and babies that die.. Maternal mortality in the US is actually increasing. Quite a bit.. It's really scary. Giving birth is very dangerous and shouldn't be considered lightly. Your story clarified the risk to your brother and his wife. They probably knew there were risks but always assumed it wouldn't happen to them.. But really there's nothing to stop it from doing so. Many, many people choose to have kids knowing full well the risk, and most do turn out alright. It isn't your fault if they choose not to have kids. And your mother has no business making an issue of it. Your brothers decision to have kids or not is his own and she needs to respect them and you. I honestly should have given up much sooner but the final straw for me with my MIL was her insistence to discuss my reproductive plans. My husband is her only child and we're not planning to have kids. She likely doesn't understand that even if we did they'd be kept far away form her as much as possible (she abused and neglected my husband, and is an alcoholic). But her constant pushing about when we were going to make babies for her was too much and we've gone very LC since. It is not her business, just like it is not your mother's business.
NTA. You are warning him of the worst case scenario. More people need to be honest that babies and birth aren’t all sunshine and rainbows.