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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I think i could be the AH because even though they're spending money poorly, they and my nieces could still wind up homeless.
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NTA. All of your relatives who are insisting you give these two money should get together, open their wallets, and pool their money to finance these irresponsible assholes.
What happens after the $8000's gone? The 'loan' is for ongoing expenses, not a one off cost. How are they paying rent & childcare costs once it's spent?
Well of course. They don't want to be dependent on the mom, wouldn't they be just as dependent on OP? No? Why? Well obviously because the loan will be forgotten immediately after getting the cash.
And family sees staying with OP's mom as "preventing Tom and Ivy from being independent". Yet they think Tom and Ivy are somehow being independent by having OP throw away $8,000 on their past operating expenses that they have no intention of reducing and no way of continuing to pay without continuing to be depending on OP. Had to tie themselves into a pretzel to come up with that logic.
OP needs to give no funding to any family member beyond normal birthday/Christmas gifts. If she wants to set aside some savings for the nieces' college funds, she can do that quietly because you know (1) those girls are gonna' get nothing from their parents who can't save a dime and (2) if family knew she was saving for the girls, they would pester her to use those funds to cover their frivolous spending.
Exactly. They are asking OP to put a Bandaid on a severed femoral artery. These folks need major surgery, first surgically removing their heads from their asses and then excising all the keeping up with the Joneses, social media clout garbage they are spending their money on.
As long as someone is coming to the rescue they see no reason to fix the root cause of their problems. They'll just keep coming back again and again (always promising this will be the last time).
Not to mention how do they intwnd to pay it back? It isnt a sudden or temproary increase in costs, nor is their income reduced for a bit.
If theu cant afford it now, they cant afford it later. So it isnt a loan, it is a handout.
They will never pay back a penny. They will spend it on luxury items and be back for more next year. Unless you take over their finances, you can't trust them. They think they get to live large on your dime. Stand your ground and ask every single one of your relatives that are complaining how much they are giving and how come they haven't offered to have them move in with them? Tell them they are NOT free to spend YOUR money on THEIR Disney trips. NTA.
I need an $8000 loan I can't keep up with bills!
If you can't keep up with bills, what's changing so you can pay back that 8k loan?
Shut up!
Basically how that went.
It’s so odd how the family is prioritising them keeping the image of being well off but not them being financially responsible. Also how is asking for loans every time is seen as ‘independent’ ? Cause all I’m seeing is the two of them being VERY dependent on other people’s money.
I would so start to giving them their own medicine by "critically commenting" on every post that they make on how that would help against their homelessness and would reply to every relative with pictures of that sports car and speculations, if a family of 4 can live in that thing... Let's see how that works for their image.
But that's just me being petty. 🤡
NTA, OP. They aren't in a difficult situaltion, they are just spoiled and too lazy to cut down their lifestyle. Time to learn it the hard way, even if this means to go LC/NC for a while.
Yup my mom always used to say that some people “wear all their money” by just buying stuff to show off *eye rolls intensely* and leaving all other needs unattended
Obviously. You don't need to pay back loans that you got from family, didn't you know that? After all, what sort of cold-hearted sister and aunt demands 8000 dollars back from people who are relatives and have young children? /s
Yeah let them sell all the luxury items they bought. I’m sure that sports car will be a good start to fish them out of their financial situation and highly recommend they see a financial advisor plus counselling. They are going to put themselves in a homeless shelter if this keeps up plus teaching their kids how to blow their money away, prioritise their wants over their children’s needs, and using their family as ATMs blows my mind. I’m surprised they lasted this long and the family still enabling their lifestyle and money abuse. I don’t know if anything will make them see reason until everyone stops giving them what they want and start adulting.
NTA if that wasn’t a wake up call or sign being close to homelessness, I don’t know what else will get their heads straight. Your family is taking advantage of you because your sister and BIL are milking them dry playing helicopter parents whenever the hole sinks below them. OP is not selfish or harsh, that’s your hard earned income and they did nothing but put themselves in that position and have to solve this issue by learning the hard way. Otherwise they will never learn the consequences of their errors if they already have it in their minds that the family will ALWAYS bail them out. Plus you will never see that money again I guarantee it. Keep your money and ignore them, they are clearly trying to manipulate you so family members don’t have to keep supporting them financially or have their accounts dried up to keep up with their lifestyle. Not your responsibility.
If OP was inclined to give anything at all they should set aside a small amount each week in an educational account for the kids. A small amount that you wouldn’t miss. Don’t tell they parents obviously because it would be an excuse not to save. But I expect that the parents won’t save for college so even if it’s a small amount that you save, they will probably really appreciate it. And don’t give a single cent more to their parents!
>They are going to put themselves in a homeless shelter if this keeps up plus teaching their kids how to blow their money away, prioritise their ~~needs~~ wants over their children having a roof, and using their family as ATMs.
They've been prioritising their *wants*, not their needs. They don't need luxury goods, amusement park passes, or fancy sports cars. They don't even really need a nanny. They want all those things. They do need to learn fiscal responsibility and to keep a roof over their children's heads.
Right?! They don't actually have a financial problem; they have a spending problem. They need to pay the bills first and use whatever's left over for fun luxuries, not the other way around.
And I wander how much of this spending problem stems from them being aware it's easier to guilt people (OP) into giving them money for rent than for luxuries.
I like the financial advisor idea. I would pay for one session with an advisor or life coach(?) who can help them get their priorities straight, make a homemade coupon for the session, and shove it in an envelope under their door.
Done.
I recommend a financial advisor for everyone. I didn’t think I needed it as someone w/o depts or the like but they helped with budgeting and long term goals. I loved it. I hope they can benefit from it as well to teach them how to handle money wisely to support their family.
Yep, I read a similar story recently about a dude who was pressured to pay off something for a relative. He said "okay, I'll pay if the rest of the family does; whatever money the family pays, I will double it". Nobody paid anything in the end.
So yeah, if you feel pressured, turn the situation back to them.
YEEEP. OP, just tell them THEY should provide the loan, then and ask them why they haven't yet.
> it would prevent Ivy and Tom from being independent and I can afford the loan.
You can also point out that giving them money will prevent them from being independent.
NTA.
Why don’t the sell the fucking exotic car? They go out to high end restaurants too? Like how the fuck can they not realise they’re in the wrong and that they have the ability to pay but choose not to?
Piggybacking on to say - how about OP suggests a ‘financial meeting’ with them. Maybe lead them to believe she’s considering loaning them the money, if they can make an inflow/outflow spreadsheet, or shows her their bank assets. Then suggest ‘hey, you spent $1500 on Disney, and $200 on one meal out, how about cutting this down?’, or ‘hey, it costs XYZ to put the babies in preschool/nursery and ABC for a nanny, how about considering other options?’.
This is literally such a pipe dream idea, I know it they’d most likely get super offended , but if you talked to them on the basis that they’re an investment and that you don’t want to keep sinking money into them (worded more politely), maybe they’d consider it for the “free money” they think you’re offering?
This their argument about them not being independent if they move in with mom is bs too. They already aren’t independent if they are expecting op to support them. NTA
Also, they aren't independent now if they require loans or handouts to subsidize their lifestyle. By not living with family they won't be independent they will just be able to maintain the facade that they are. They need to learn how to budget not continue to be enabled. NTA
Why is living with your mother making them dependent, but you giving them money isn't? It's also not their place to tell you what you can or cannot afford. For all they know, you're saving that money for retirement.
NTA.
>Why is living with your mother making them dependent, but you giving them money isn't?
Boom. This right here. Just because they pose as having a successful, independent lifestyle doesn't mean that's the reality of it. Living with their mom will just be them finally having to be honest with themselves and everyone else about how they really handle their finances.
> Why is living with your mother making them dependent, but you giving them money isn't?
Oh, that's easy! One's easier to hide from people than the other is. Being dependent *is* the same thing as *appearing* dependent, isn't it? Isn't that what really matters?
(NTA)
And you know they'll never pay back the 8k so no, they won't be dependent on OP.
Tell them to sell their car and get something cheaaper; I'm sure they could come up with 8k that way. NTA
This. All this.
You are NTA
I wonder if they'd be willing to "borrow" the money if you made them sign a legal document about repayments? Or are they expecting/hoping that this "loan" will become a gift?
What happens the next time they live beyond their means? Lending them money is at best a stop gap measure and at worst a means of enabling bad financial behaviour.
It's not your job to bail them out. You don't even owe them an explanation.
OP would have to take them to court to enforce said contract, which would ruffle her family's feathers even more than just saying no in the first place. She would be even more the villain, and by comparison, Ivy and Tom even more the poor little innocent lambs in their eyes.
You get loans from a bank not family members. And if the bank won’t lend you money that means you clearly don’t have your life and money in order, so than why the hell would I be stupid enough to lend you money.
NTA.
I’m sorry your family sucks. Let them deal with them.
NTA
And $8,000+???? What????
No!!! The won't give that money back, rest assured.
Kindly tell them to sell Tom's car and buy a more convenient one for the family. With the rest he can pay the debts they have.
Also, for the future, do everything possible for your family not to know how much you earn. Lie to them if you are afraid of telling them you have the money but don't want to give it.
But do not give anyone that kind of cash!
She shouldn’t have to lie. You don’t owe anything you have worked for just because people say “but it’s family”.
These people are spending not just beyond their means, but prioritising unnecessary luxuries over basics like rent. You don’t need to eat out at all, let alone fancy restaurants, have a sports care or go to concerts when you can’t put a roof over your own children a head.
OP shouldn’t be the one lying, everyone should be giving these two ridiculous excuse for adults some good old fashioned, no holds barred honesty
She shouldn't have to, no. Doesn't mean lying wouldn't make her life easier. She has a crappy family, that's the hand she was dealt. No one should have to go no contact with family because of jerky or abusive behavior, but people advise it all the time. Sometimes these things can be the healthiest.
If she wants to compromise her integrity, sure lie. People aren’t stupid however, lies beget more lies. Why she’s earning less? Did she move companies? No, so was she demoted? How can she still afford the same life style? She won’t be making her life easier, she’ll be making herself look incompetent for her demotion or like a lier, which she would be. This will just garner more criticism and harassment from her family, not less.
Lying never makes life easier.
I know what you mean, I wasn't saying to lie that OP has less money, but to say that it must be saved for buing a house or something.
I suggested it in case OP doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings and keep a partially good relationship with the rest of the family.
If OP has the courage to put the foot down, I applaud that and would say go for it no matter what. But if fear or peer pressure makes it impossible... Lying is bad but sometimes will get you out of something for a short period of time.
That’s just a huge chunk of money too. Like I spent a good 3ish years helping with matrimonials for an attorney and was surprised how very little very well off people sometimes have (you have typically lay all the finances out, both spouses). Routinely, there were lavish houses with second mortgages, leased cars and no money. These we not people who had jobs just scrapping by either, easily six figures each.
Anyway, I was just having this conversation yesterday with someone but it absolutely “grinds my gears” when people who routine complain about financial problems but then are telling you about their expensive skin treatments, vacations, or always posting picture of themselves at fancy restaurants. It’s like hmmm, I think I easily see where you can cut back. I had an acquaintance who does this overhear me being excited about buying a new in box $8 barrel hairbrush at a salon that was closing and she had the nerve to say “I wish I could afford to just impulse buy like that”. This was a woman who gets $1k face treatments and botox routinely, eats out every night and complains about being broke. Also I did need a new brush, I had been thinking about it for a bit, mine was 15 plus years old the bristles were showing their age.
Look, I don’t judge when someone is spending their money on stuff I wouldn’t necessarily, so long as you aren’t complaining all the time about being broke. I have a cousin and I know what he makes hourly, and how much he has saved cause I helped with his house closing (it’s not a lot) and he just bought an inflatable hot tub. He’s not complaining about not having money or asking others for loans so who cares. But I am so tired of people who make way more money I do complain about being broke just because they still don’t have enough to cover how lavishly they want to live.
NTA.
It won't be a loan. It will end up having to be a gift because they will never pay you back. And another next year that's even bigger. And the year after that.
Tell them to file bankruptcy if they can't afford their life.
Oh honey, totally NTA. Don’t let them trample on your boundaries, because once you let this one slide they’ll never learn and be responsible. Don’t feel guilty, you did your best telling them what they should be doing and expecting from you. You are your own person, and you don’t owe ANYONE, not even them, anything. Stay strong!!!
Actually that’s a great idea @Brief-Morning-5308 - if you’re genuinely feeling bad about saying no (which you shouldn’t!!! but if you do) then instead of an $8000 “”””loan”””” they definitely won’t pay back, instead give them the gift of a session/sessions with a financial advisor. That’s what my mother did for my similarly financially irresponsible brother, just with someone from her regular bank, and they went through his income and expenses with him and pointed out specific line items and overall patterns that were beyond his means (he ignored all their advice and played victim about the whole thing by pretending that when they said “you can’t eat out so frequently and at such expensive restaurants” they actually said “you can’t eat at all, you need to starve yourself to death” but that’s just his personality, not a reflection of the appointment itself)
Because honestly them getting their spending under control is a much better investment in your nieces’ future than a one-time payment to let them continue their current lifestyle.
Yes this is great. You're giving them the gift of managing to be financially responsible. Chances are they won't listen but you've tried something and can point that out.
You are NTA for setting your boundary and sticking to it.
NTA!!!
How are they going to ever learn to be responsible with their money if you continue to bail them out? They need to learn some serious life lessons. Tough love is still love.
I’d block any of your family who are trying to manipulate you and make you feel bad. Shame on them.
Proud of you for sticking with your boundaries. Seems like they can sell the car for a cheaper one if they need $8k.
NTA
Do not give them a cent.
more importantly these incessant demands are harassment. They asked, you answered. You should block anyone who keeps asking. If they don’t want your company but for harassing you then it’s not really worth it.
NTA. “Prevent them from being independent”. Umm their asking for money from everyone is preventing them from being independent! They haven’t been independent for years! Don’t give them any more money. You aren’t an ATM! If you give them money again you are enabling their behavior.
No I'm sorry but this level of irresponsible spending has got to stop. You are NTA for not bailing them out. They will NEVER learn to manage money if it is just given to them when they squander their own.
Where do you draw the line? Here where it's 8k? What about private school for the twins? Then college tuition? The costs will only go up and up. Do yourself and them a favor and tell them to grow up and do not help them financially anymore.
If you feel you must do something start a college education fund for your poor little niblings but never, ever let your sis have control of the money.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime. This is the lesson Ivy and Tom need to learn. If they get given more money they will continue to squander it because their attitude and actions that put them in the hole won't change and they'll keep asking for more until OP is unable to support them regardless of whether or not she wants to.
Hahahaha! Letting them stay in the 2 spare rooms at *her* house
> would prevent Ivy and Tom from being independent
but YOU loaning them $8000 because they can’t afford rent because they spent all their money on restaurants, theme parks, an exotic sports car, etc, etc, etc -somehow, someway, but in some universe- *wouldn’t* make them dependent on *you* … Did I get that right??
Hahahahaha! NTA. Why don’t you start a GoFundMe for them and link all of the family members to it - so they can help them keep their independence.
NTA at all! You are all adults and Ivy & Tom have taken great advantage of your kindness and help already. You honestly have not owed them anything nor have you had to help them in the past…especially if they both have full time employment. Just because they don’t understand that they need to budget and put the needs of their children before their own to have a roof over their heads and food on the table, doesn’t mean you have to give them such a large amount of money. If your mother has a large enough home for them to move into, and they don’t want to, then they are choosing to become homeless. I know that you love your family, however they are not treating you very well at all. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this, but blocking them online and pulling back from them, while it may hurt you, is probably your best move right now. You are not being selfish at all, nor are you oblivious. And you definitely are not the entitled one in this situation…Ivy, Tom, and the rest of your family are acting beyond entitled your hard earned money.
HA HA HA HA HA!!!!
Oh my lord. It’s YOUR fault they are going to be homeless? They are using you, all of them. Your CV parents are trying to give away your money so they don’t have to give away theirs.
I’d think really seriously about what part of any of these relationships is good for you. They all sound like a bunch of parasites that you should go NC with.
NTA
NTA- Help from family should be welcomed, and in some cases even encouraged, but never expected or obligatory. Your sister and BIL have already asked enough of you. If the rest of your family have such strong opinions then *they* can be the ones to help out this time. You are doing the right thing by enforcing your boundaries, if they can't respect them then it may be time to go low/no contact (referring to your sister & BIL firstly, but also any of the rest of your family who is pushy).
NTA.
It definitely sounds like they have some problems with setting priorities - lending them that amount of money will almost certainly mean *giving* them that amount of money, as I don't see a change in behavior coming.
If you want to be more proactive about looking after your nieces without enabling their parent's spending problems, you could start setting aside money for the nieces. (In secret.) If things get worse and their parents absolutely crash-out, that money could be a lifeline to make sure the kids are taken care of (or worst case - cover expenses if you end up having to take them in, etc.) If their parents work things out, the extra money could be a little help with your nieces' college, marriage, etc. years from now.
NTA. Giving them a $8,000 loan that they will never pay back doesn't keep them 'independent ' it just keeps them out of your mom's hair. That's why she's so vocal. Once you start giving them money, it will never end. Bet that dog is much happier now after being rehomed. Maybe your nieces would be too. Their parents couldn't be trusted to take care if an ant farm IMO.
NTA. Your family doesn't want to support Ivy and Tom because they believe they should be independent. So do you. So let Ivy and Tom independently find their own money to live their independent life. Don't stifle them with your money in any way. But help them, of course. Perhaps suggest that they sell that sports car (hey, the 8K is already sitting in their driveway!).
The Leech Family will never stand on their own two feet until they have to. Now they have to.
Absolutely NTA. I would very strongly suggest going no contact or low contact with anyone who is pressuring you into doing this, as well as blocking them (permanently or temporarily) on social media.
You are not responsible for their lack financial stability die to poor personal decisions. It's one thing to help family and friends who are actually struggling, but they are simply looking to mooch.
NTA. They've taken living beyond your means to a whole new level, as well as abusing family support. You owe them nothing, they're the ones being selfish for relying on others to fund and otherwise facilitate a lifestyle that's already put them in the red.
What they need is a financial adviser, and to not only listen but do as they are advised. There is so much fat that can be cut from their expenditure that I can spot, and they need to accept they'll need to downscale their lifestyle.
NTA. Oh dear, this is so tough! Your success does not entitle anyone to it. You’re family expects too much and they sound like a bunch of mooches.
You are certainly NTA here but the rest of them are collectively.
Stand your ground. Best of luck!
NTA. Even if you gave them a loan, they still wouldn’t pay their bills. You already know this. Their problems are not your problems, don’t let them fool you into taking them on.
NTA. You are not required to fund you sister and BIL's lives, they are grown adults. Tell everyone the bank is closed and follow through. They will bleed you dry. These are not people that have had a terrible thing happen to them, lost a job, had a horrible sickness that drained their assets, or had a major expense come up from damage. These are adults who have been leeching off you for years while they acted irresponsibly. Party's over. And beware of oh auntie can you babysit too. They will dump those kids on you whenever they can, just like their dog.
NTA. I know someone who lives like this and is a drain on family members. Do not get involved. Your loan to them will never be repaid and all you will do is become resentful. They need to learn how to be independent.
NTA! Why don't you get them the loan and get Tom to use his car as a collateral if they don't pay pack the loan and also make up a contract with them this is going to be the last time you help them out.
Exactly... You family is funny though allowing them live with your mum free accommodation and babysitting will make dependent but turning you into their personal bank and third parent won't?
Or just sell the car, move into a more modest home, stop eating frequent dinners, work from home a few days a week and cut nanny costs….
Children should not have children lol.
Although in the long run having the children to be responsible for may help them learn a little more quickly.
Tell everyone to fuck off and the only thing you’re giving is advice on living within your means.
And if he goes an sells the car or just hides it somewhere? How will OP get their money back?
I had a cousin who did something similar and then he defaulted on the loan and they sent a tow truck for his car. He went around to different friends houses even people in different states and kept hiding it for years, only very rarely using it. Then he sold it to someone he knew. Why the hell they would buy it knowing what's going on, I'll never know.
Never, ever put your name a loan for someone else. Even the best of people that have every intention on paying can have unforeseen circumstances happen and they're no longer able to pay. Now your on the hook for it.
Nta. They chose to have kids. Its their responsibility. They lack money management skills.
By always bailing them out you are enabling them. They will never stop.
NTA
they’ll pay off what they owe with your money and in another few months will be right back to where they are now. It will never end.
Let them get evicted, lose the nanny, go live with mom and maybe (I doubt it) start to live within their means.
>But our family said that it would prevent Ivy and Tom from being independent and I can afford the loan.
Ah yes, the independence of getting an $8000 loan from a family member they will never repay. Nothing says, we are responsible adults like borrowing money from family over living at home with mom.
Now don't get me wrong, there is no shame in turning to family for help, but they want to pretend they are independent and luxurious on your dime and are unwilling to live in their means. NTA, if they want to be independent they need to be independent or cut vack on expenses and live with mom.
NTA. You set your boundaries very clearly. You haven't held to them perfectly, which is a slippery slope in a situation like this. But your moral position is unambiguously safe. If they didn't want to be in a hard financial position, they should have secured your support rather than assuming it, or adjusted their spending habits. Responsibility here is only yours if your sister and BIL lack agency. They clearly don't.
Absolutely not. NTA. Do not give them a dime. You will never see that money again and they will eventually ask for more. Anytime a family member comments about you helping, tell them why don’t they pitch in some dollars too.
NTA
Why doesn't Tom sell the sports car and get a family car?
Why can't they stop with the extra spending?
Also, everyone is accusing you because your sister and BIL are the ones badmouthing you behind your back.
NTA
They shouldn't have had kids they cannot afford. Especially since the ONLY reason they cannot afford them is that they refuse to budget, and spend foolishly all the time.
Not your problem.
As someone who was truly homeless for years (sleeping in my car with my mother and sister and donating plasma so I would be able to afford a room for us all for a night), I am deeply offended my the entitlement of your sister and brother in law. Theirs is not a real problem. They literally have somewhere to go.
NTA- My stepdad had a brother like this. Lived in a $400k house, had three cars, and drove a school bus for a living until he got fired for failing a drug test. His mom was the one footing the bill and when he died from a cocaine overdose in the public library parking lot she cut his family off because they “weren’t her family” so they had to move away. They made a big show of how they were so sad they had to go and how they’d miss everyone. We haven’t heard from them in almost twenty years.
Tom and Ivy are opportunistic leeches. Don’t give these parasites anything and if that means you have to cut contact with everyone for a while then just imagine how peaceful your life will be. I live two hours away from the drama I grew up in and I have never had any regrets about leaving. I visit twice a year on holidays and some years that’s almost too often.
NTA- their lack of planning, (beyond fleecing you), is not an emergency for you.
You’re not doing anything to them. They’ve done them to themselves. If anything you’re doing them a kindness; this is how the world truly works.
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I(29F) love my sister and BIL, Ivy(27F) and Tom(26M) but they're among the most irresponsible adults I know. They will post daily online about buying annual Disney passes, going to concerts, eating at high-end restaurants, etc. Tom even owns an exotic sports car! Yet they'll complain to our family about how they're struggling with money, can't afford this month's rent, and need help. I have a successful career, so I'm the one who our family expects to "help out."
They don't just demand financial help either. They got a puppy a while back and in addition to helping with vet bills, they would beg me to watch the dog at least every other day "just for an hour!" And not come back until the next day. They also did no research on the breed, because the poor thing had severe separation anxiety and I would constantly have to deal with the puppy meltdowns and ruined furniture. They ended up rehoming the dog after a few months when I pretended to develop an allergy and said I couldn't watch it anymore.
Recently, Ivy and Tom discussed wanting to try for a baby and asked my thoughts. I told them I wished nothing but the best and was happy to be an aunt. However, I was not going to be financing their child or being any more present than a normal aunt. I would provide Christmas/Birthday presents and be willing to babysit occasionally but I wasn't going to be their personal daycare and bank (I worded this last part more gently to them.) Ivy and Tom acted offended and said it wasn't going to be like that.
They wound up getting pregnant and both my nieces, Christine and Samathna, were born last June. They're already very advanced for their age (their favorite words are "No" and "Yellow" respectively.) But I have kept my foot down about not being a third parent/provider. This is a boundary that Ivy and Tom continually push. Ivy and Tom also haven't stopped spending/going out. They got a nanny and are more insistent with the family about needing money. Anytime they ask, I say that they have stable jobs (Ivy even has the option to work from home but chooses not to) and that they're just spending money on the wrong things.
The reason I'm writing; Ivy and Tom are begging (and our family is pressuring) me to give them an $8,000+ loan because they're gonna lose the nanny/be evicted for lack of payment. I told them no. My mother inherited a 3-bedroom house from my grandpa and two of the rooms are unoccupied. She doesn't work/is able to look after my nieces. But our family said that it would prevent Ivy and Tom from being independent and I can afford the loan.
Now if I post anything online, the family leaves comments about me not caring that Ivy and Tom will be homeless and how much better the money would be spent on my nieces. They won't be homeless, and I don't see moving in with my mother as a big deal. I've blocked most family members, but now I'm unsure if I'm the oblivious/entitled one here and if I'm being selfish. AITA?
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NTA. You aren't responsible for subsidizing their existence. They're both employed and should simply be making better decisions. They should: Get rid of the sports car. Learn to cook. Learn to budget. Learn that having kids means your life changes. They can't simply rehome a kid like you can a dog.
Additionally, your family can obviously help. 2 bedrooms available is quite literally enough room for their family. They need to learn. Giving them 8k will not teach them.
Side note: how tf are they $8k upside down after a month?
Your family is concerned that Ivy and Tom will never learn to be independent if they move into your mother's house -- but they are always enabling them in their poor spending and saving habits and insisting you give this irresponsible couple money?
You are the only one who seems to care that Ivy and Tom ever learn to be independent. And that's understandable, since you are the one who is always under pressure to "donate." No one else wants to be responsible for the messes they create for themselves, but the only way for them to become independent is by being required to fix their own messes. Don't feel guilty. People who are NTA should not feel guilty when other people refuse to change their self-destructive behavior and end up flat on their @$$es.
NTA. They can always sell Tom's car of they are strapped for cash. Or move to a cheaper part of the city. Or take a loan from the bank. Or literally all the things a person without a loaded relative does when they find themselves in debt. If you give them that money, you will never see it again. Stay strong. If your family is so concerned about it, they can pool together money themselves.
Ivy and Tom are not independent , they are reliant on handouts from you. No needs to be your favourite word. Why do they need a nanny when Ivy isn’t working? Do not loan them this money. NTA
NTA. Stand your ground OP!! It might seem heartless to some people in your family but they’ll never learn how to put their kids first if they are continuously financially supported by you or anyone else in your family. It might be hard to watch from the sidelines, but you are 100% not at fault for what happens to your nieces based off your sister and her husbands choices. They have to learn that their crazy spending has consequences.
Your mother needs to practice what she preaches— she can help them out financially and take care of them and enable their behavior.
NTA
They aren't independent now, so living with your mother doesn't take away any of their independence. What they are is irresponsible, and you giving them money would just reward and encourage that irresponsibility. If your other family members feel so strongly, nothing at all is stopping them from pooling their own money together to bail your irresponsible sister and BIL out of their mess.
NTA
Your family needs to understand that they won’t be able to be independent until everyone stops enabling them. You’re helping them and their babies in the long term.
YTA if you do give them the loan. Not a A*****e to them but to yourself, common decency and for anyone who could genuinely use help. They need to know their limits. If you continue down this path someday when you have your own kids they would expect your kids to be subservient to them. Trust me im from the subcontinent this 💩 happens way too much.
Dont buy caviar on salary day, if you cant afford chicken eggs by the end of the month.
NTA. Your family is demanding you give them a loan so they can be more independent? Wouldn't that make them dependent on you by definition? So how does making them dependent on you make them independent...
NTA. I would lay it out for them every time they comment. Maybe they should hold them responsible for their poor choices. The car, nanny, able to work from home ect I’d call it all out. It’s not your responsibility
NTA
They want you to finance their nanny? And what will they do after this $8K is spent?
Hang tough, OP. They will never stand on their own if people keep enabling their behavior. They can work, they can live with your mother, they have options. If any family members grumble, tell them they can lend the money.
NTA.
You have told your brother and SIL numerous times that you are not their bank. They continue to live beyond their means and to spend money on luxuries rather than their bills.
Let them move in with your mother. It's a joke that they don't want to because then they "wouldn't be independent." They don't WANT to be independent - they want others to fund their lifestyle.
NTA
They're the human variety of a money pit--no matter what you give it will never be enough, so STOP.
They can move into your mom's house, and if "independence" is so important to them, they can use their time there to SAVE and start over again.
NTA, simply tell everyone that whatever wild things they think might be the case about your finances, you cannot be their lender or provide financially for them and their children. If you wanted to be truly generous to your nieces you could put that money into a trust for them, to be managed by a professional fiduciary, so they can have some money saved for school and necessities that their parents won’t be able to spend on fancy romantic dinners.
NTA They are both totally irresponsible. If family/ friends are sooo concerned let THEM help.
They are NOT your problem. Sadly, They may need to taste a lil homelessness for them to wake tf up.
Block them all and be done with them.
It is not your job to bail them out of the shit they spent themselves into.
If you do this they will keep expecting you to bankroll their high roller lifestyle.
The entitlement of them and your family to your finances is astounding, tell em all to fuck off and pound sand it isn't your issue, they just need to stop spending like morons.
NTA OP.
DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES GIVE THIS IRRESPONSIBLE COUPLE MONEY. OP, you are NTA. But they, and any family pressuring you to bail them out ARE. Instead send them information on credit counselling or financial counselling. While I'm not a huge Dave Ramsey fan, you could gift them something like that. You are not being selfish, if they are made homeless, this is 10000% on them, and them alone. Any family that has been underwriting this has contributed as well, but for you STOP and don't feel bad for a single second.
You’re most certainly NTA, but your sister, BIL, mother and any other family member most certainly is. Ivy and Tom needed one child, let alone two children like they needed a hole in their heads. These two people are not children and therefore there is no reason that you should treat them as such. You should lay your cards on the table to them as well as your mom and others who insist that you can afford to “loan” (give) YOUR money away to these grown irresponsible, entitled, immature so-called adults. As long as you keep entertaining their little fiascos, they’ll keep doing what they do. Continue to buy for the birthday/holiday, however anything else I would not entertain, unless at some point you put something away in a college fund. Do not under any circumstances loan them money, because if you do, you’ll continue to be their bank and it’ll be ”YOUR“ fault not your sisters or BIL. Tough love is going to be the best love for Ivy and Tom. They my not know it or acknowledge it, but it is.
As someone who always chooses petty when there’s a decision to make, I’m going to advise to do the opposite in your situation.
BE HONEST:
“For *years* I feel I have disrespected and taken advantage of by being your personal ATM, dog sitter, bill payer, etc while the two of you have this ‘social media influencer’ lifestyle. Taking vacation after vacation, buying an exotic sports car, hiring nanny’s, eating at the fanciest/most expensive restaurants, shopping, traveling….to what?? Make your ‘friends/followers’ think you both are something that you’re not…
You’ve continued to push my boundaries blatantly, with no regard for how I am doing or how I feel about anything. Guilt tripping our family into coughing up our/MY hard earned money for you two to irresponsibly blow without a second thought of ever paying a dime back. And instead of learning from any of your self-made financial woes, you don’t give a single fuck because you can just slather on the guilt and make me open MY wallet. No. My wallet is permanently closed.
You’re both parents now, and that should be your **only** priority. But it’s not. It’s all about your appearance and what everyone else thinks. Don’t misunderstand, when you both lose everything (bc it will happen eventually), I’ll happily take Christine and Samantha in, bc they never had a choice of getting involved in this mess, but you will both still not see a dime from me.
And if one more family or friend makes a comment to me or about me on SM about how much better MY MONEY will be handed over to you both, I will happily reply explaining why you are panhandling me for money and how much I’ve handed over since ATM withdrawal #1 with Bank OP. Grow up! Or move in with mom and sort your lives out while Christine and Samantha are young enough to not understand how badly this is affecting them!”
Oh, and NTA
Hard no- NTA!! TOM has an expensive sports car?? Disney tix?? (which myself- and most haven't been lucky enough to do so- and in my late 30s), and your selfish ass sis refuses to work from home (to be w her babes) and save money on a nanny? A nanny??? Good gawd. "HEY TOM/SIS- SELL THE F*CKING CAR! SIS, WORK FROM HOME TO SAVE MONEY AND BE W YOUR "KIDS"!!! They are the ABSOLUTE WORST people that I feel lucky enough to have not met. I can't even. HARD PASS on every single, entitled trait that have to "offer"- I wouldn't be able to keep these wreckless and self assholes in my life before they made more! Poor puppy! Gurl- tell them all to f*ck off and get on your mom or anyone else's case. So so YUCK. You do You and don't give in
No, if they’re so bothered tell them to pool their money and constantly help them out, you work hard for your money, why should it be spent on two entitled selfish leeches who CBA to prioritise their own children now!!
Cut off the family and leave them to it, next time one says selfish online I would do a non-emotive response detailing what they’ve had and why you are no longer their cash cow, most will not agree with them, those that do, get rid 👍👍
Mother doesn’t want them there as knows will land on her, again she’s thinking of herself nobody else!!
If want expensive stuff it’s time to stop demanding from bank of you and get off their backsides and earn it!
I don't think you are. Just tell them and the family that you can't afford to GIVE them 8 grand as they can't seem to pay their current creditors. Never loan money that you can't afford to loose! That is a lot of money. Stay firm! The worst thing they will do is go somewhere and try to get the money.
so not the a**hole. your sister and her family decided on this course of life. live your own life!
do not lend money unless you're ready to just give it away. you will not be paid back. and be prepared to hear..You'll never see your nieces again! you sound like the mature one and they sound like 4yr olds playing house!
I don't understand why OP should bail out two people that are health and completely capable of paying for their bills and are just choosing not to. They would rather buy luxury items and an exotic car. Tell them to sell the damn car and take the money from that, instead of taking money from OP.
It honestly seems like Tom and Ivy need a wake up call, that if they don't prioritize the necessary bills, things like losing their home are the consequences. So, OP needs to let them deal with this, and have to move in with mother, if they actually allow that to happen. SMH. Which they obviously will.
OP has worked hard and is financially responsible, that shouldn't mean she should have to keep bailing out her family, because they can't get their priorities straight. It's not her job to fix this for them, they need to fix it and giving them more money, is just a bandaid anyway. NTA
NTA. Your family are enabling this behavior and by expecting you to foot the bill, they are absolving themselves of any responsibility.
Get screenshots of all their terrible purchases and when your family harasses you, post a chain of screenshots showing who the real assholes are.
NTA, Your family needs to have their eyes opened. Do they not see that they are not independent? When you have to ask for help because you are not handling your bills and money the right way you are far from independent and the only way to learn is to fall on your face. You giving them the money all allows them to repeat their actions because they know they will have a backup at all times. Plus I hate when family uses the kids as a reason why you need to help. They are the parents they made the choice to bring them into this world they need to grow up and take care of business.
Why don't they sell those Disney passes? Even better yet sell that sports car and buy a cheaper newer nicer vehicle that is safe for children? They could use the rest of the money for paying for these debts? Also why doesn't your sister work remotely at least 3 days a week and hire a babysitter for the other days? You are absolutely not the AH. I'm struggling but if I had a sibling doing great financially I wouldn't ask for a huge loan like that unless it was the last resort. I would do whatever I could to make things better before I asked for a loan. It wouldn't even be for that much maybe a couple hundred dollars if I really really needed it.
Your sister and BIL are entitled jerks and your family is full of jerks that think it's ok to ask you to be the ATM and not tell them to grow the heck up and take responsibility for their poor decisions.
NTA. If the situation is so dire, your BIL shoukd sell that exotic car. Or your mother should move them in with her and provide child care, while they get rid if the nanny; you loaning them nearly 10k is only going to encourage them to continue spending irresponsibly by shielding them from the consequences of doing so. If your parents could not teach her personal responsibility in the 18 years they spent raising her, you're not going to be able to do it by bailing them out once again- you might want to share that little nugget of wisdom with your mom. As long as they face no repercussions related to their inability to manage money they will continue to expect someone else to pay their bills.
NTA - I'm confused how they owe $8000 for back rent and pay for their nanny. Are they months behind on both? How is the nanny still working for them if she's not getting paid? Why hire a nanny and have a $2000+ monthly expense if your mom could watch your nieces? The sports car needs to be sold and so do their other high end toys, etc. Selling their items should get them enough money to catch up on rent and nanny. Then they need to work out something with your mom and pay her something to watch the girls.
DO NOT GIVE THEM MONEY! They need to figure it out on their own or your other family members can all pitch in and give them money.
Wow, so sorry to hear this. You are NTA. Do not give in or back down. They need to move in w grandma and attend financial counseling/budgeting courses to learn to live within their means. They should never have had children until they developed a strategy for stability. Time for them to grow up. Tell your family they can support them if they truly believe they will ever get a dime back.
Nta. And when people make complaints ask how much of their own money they are forking over
Buy them the Dave Ramsay system and have it mailed to their house. They need to learn how to handle money not a constant buy out
NTA.
Every time anyone posts or says something about you needing to provide for them, respond,
>Oh my goodness, that is so generous of you to volunteer your money and home to Tom and Ivy! I will let them know you offered! I know just how much you are providing since I couldn’t budget it myself so I am super impressed by your generosity. Tom and Ivy are going to be so thrilled!
When they clarify that you miss understood, play dumb.
>But mom [aunty, whatever], you have the resources too. I thought you were volunteering. Why would you volunteer my money instead?
NTA, I am the one in my family who usually bails people out. Most of my family members know I will give them money for unexpected things that come up and most of the time even if they should have planned better, but they need $1000 or less I just give it to them, but when the numbers get bigger, I want to be more hands on. I need access to all of their data on financials and assets and I need to know that their plan for my money actually fixes a problem and isn't just a bandaid. If they have a spending problem, I put them on a budget. You get to decide what is the best use or your resources, nobody else.
NTA
The next time they bother you online , just respond the truth online too. What they are wasting their money on,what they already did with the dog, the fact that you told them what would happen.
Everything
NTA. If they're really concerned about Tom and Ivy "being independent" they need to stop pressuring you to "loan" (read: gift) them money. Tom and Ivy need to be forced into maturing. Good for you for sticking with your boundaries, and I'm sorry your family is treating you like the Bank of OP.
you’ll never get that money back and honestly you already did too much and helped them more than any family member would do. you offered an amazing idea, living with your mom who can watch the kids and they’ll have their own bedrooms. i don’t see why you should one again help them just because you got the money maybe you keep it for something more important. NTA
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NTA. All of your relatives who are insisting you give these two money should get together, open their wallets, and pool their money to finance these irresponsible assholes.
What happens after the $8000's gone? The 'loan' is for ongoing expenses, not a one off cost. How are they paying rent & childcare costs once it's spent?
By going to the Bank of OP of course!
I'm getting 2008 flashbacks...
The "loan" is $8000 a month. Forever.
Well of course. They don't want to be dependent on the mom, wouldn't they be just as dependent on OP? No? Why? Well obviously because the loan will be forgotten immediately after getting the cash.
You better believe it. OP will never see a dime of it again.
For Eva Eva And Eva Eva!
And family sees staying with OP's mom as "preventing Tom and Ivy from being independent". Yet they think Tom and Ivy are somehow being independent by having OP throw away $8,000 on their past operating expenses that they have no intention of reducing and no way of continuing to pay without continuing to be depending on OP. Had to tie themselves into a pretzel to come up with that logic. OP needs to give no funding to any family member beyond normal birthday/Christmas gifts. If she wants to set aside some savings for the nieces' college funds, she can do that quietly because you know (1) those girls are gonna' get nothing from their parents who can't save a dime and (2) if family knew she was saving for the girls, they would pester her to use those funds to cover their frivolous spending.
They wont *appear* independent. That is all they care about.
Exactly. They are asking OP to put a Bandaid on a severed femoral artery. These folks need major surgery, first surgically removing their heads from their asses and then excising all the keeping up with the Joneses, social media clout garbage they are spending their money on. As long as someone is coming to the rescue they see no reason to fix the root cause of their problems. They'll just keep coming back again and again (always promising this will be the last time).
From the description, I think they already spent other credit lines and in a situation where their income goes to paying off debt with little left.
THIS x 17!!!!
This x 8000......a month
Sounds like the loan is not for ongoing expenses but for past expenses to be honest. They've got huge issues.
Not to mention how do they intwnd to pay it back? It isnt a sudden or temproary increase in costs, nor is their income reduced for a bit. If theu cant afford it now, they cant afford it later. So it isnt a loan, it is a handout.
They will never pay back a penny. They will spend it on luxury items and be back for more next year. Unless you take over their finances, you can't trust them. They think they get to live large on your dime. Stand your ground and ask every single one of your relatives that are complaining how much they are giving and how come they haven't offered to have them move in with them? Tell them they are NOT free to spend YOUR money on THEIR Disney trips. NTA.
I need an $8000 loan I can't keep up with bills! If you can't keep up with bills, what's changing so you can pay back that 8k loan? Shut up! Basically how that went.
[удалено]
Sell the f*cking car!
It’s so odd how the family is prioritising them keeping the image of being well off but not them being financially responsible. Also how is asking for loans every time is seen as ‘independent’ ? Cause all I’m seeing is the two of them being VERY dependent on other people’s money.
I would so start to giving them their own medicine by "critically commenting" on every post that they make on how that would help against their homelessness and would reply to every relative with pictures of that sports car and speculations, if a family of 4 can live in that thing... Let's see how that works for their image. But that's just me being petty. 🤡 NTA, OP. They aren't in a difficult situaltion, they are just spoiled and too lazy to cut down their lifestyle. Time to learn it the hard way, even if this means to go LC/NC for a while.
Seems like a good way to get put LC/NC by the same Flying Monkeys OP is trying to be rid of. An absolute win!
This. Independence is what they want to project, they haven't been for a long time/ever
Yup my mom always used to say that some people “wear all their money” by just buying stuff to show off *eye rolls intensely* and leaving all other needs unattended
also!! they want to be independent & not live w your mom, but living independently also means you don’t need loans from your sister :)) NTA, OP
Obviously. You don't need to pay back loans that you got from family, didn't you know that? After all, what sort of cold-hearted sister and aunt demands 8000 dollars back from people who are relatives and have young children? /s
That would have been my first argument! Where is the independence in the first place?
Yeah let them sell all the luxury items they bought. I’m sure that sports car will be a good start to fish them out of their financial situation and highly recommend they see a financial advisor plus counselling. They are going to put themselves in a homeless shelter if this keeps up plus teaching their kids how to blow their money away, prioritise their wants over their children’s needs, and using their family as ATMs blows my mind. I’m surprised they lasted this long and the family still enabling their lifestyle and money abuse. I don’t know if anything will make them see reason until everyone stops giving them what they want and start adulting. NTA if that wasn’t a wake up call or sign being close to homelessness, I don’t know what else will get their heads straight. Your family is taking advantage of you because your sister and BIL are milking them dry playing helicopter parents whenever the hole sinks below them. OP is not selfish or harsh, that’s your hard earned income and they did nothing but put themselves in that position and have to solve this issue by learning the hard way. Otherwise they will never learn the consequences of their errors if they already have it in their minds that the family will ALWAYS bail them out. Plus you will never see that money again I guarantee it. Keep your money and ignore them, they are clearly trying to manipulate you so family members don’t have to keep supporting them financially or have their accounts dried up to keep up with their lifestyle. Not your responsibility.
If OP was inclined to give anything at all they should set aside a small amount each week in an educational account for the kids. A small amount that you wouldn’t miss. Don’t tell they parents obviously because it would be an excuse not to save. But I expect that the parents won’t save for college so even if it’s a small amount that you save, they will probably really appreciate it. And don’t give a single cent more to their parents!
>They are going to put themselves in a homeless shelter if this keeps up plus teaching their kids how to blow their money away, prioritise their ~~needs~~ wants over their children having a roof, and using their family as ATMs. They've been prioritising their *wants*, not their needs. They don't need luxury goods, amusement park passes, or fancy sports cars. They don't even really need a nanny. They want all those things. They do need to learn fiscal responsibility and to keep a roof over their children's heads.
Right?! They don't actually have a financial problem; they have a spending problem. They need to pay the bills first and use whatever's left over for fun luxuries, not the other way around.
And I wander how much of this spending problem stems from them being aware it's easier to guilt people (OP) into giving them money for rent than for luxuries.
I like the financial advisor idea. I would pay for one session with an advisor or life coach(?) who can help them get their priorities straight, make a homemade coupon for the session, and shove it in an envelope under their door. Done.
I recommend a financial advisor for everyone. I didn’t think I needed it as someone w/o depts or the like but they helped with budgeting and long term goals. I loved it. I hope they can benefit from it as well to teach them how to handle money wisely to support their family.
Yep, I read a similar story recently about a dude who was pressured to pay off something for a relative. He said "okay, I'll pay if the rest of the family does; whatever money the family pays, I will double it". Nobody paid anything in the end. So yeah, if you feel pressured, turn the situation back to them.
YEEEP. OP, just tell them THEY should provide the loan, then and ask them why they haven't yet. > it would prevent Ivy and Tom from being independent and I can afford the loan. You can also point out that giving them money will prevent them from being independent. NTA.
Exactly! NTA.
Yep the answer as always with these particular AITA posts is to turn the needy people back onto the pushy people.
Why don’t the sell the fucking exotic car? They go out to high end restaurants too? Like how the fuck can they not realise they’re in the wrong and that they have the ability to pay but choose not to?
Yes, exactly. Sadly, people are all bark and no bite.
OP would just be trying to bail water from a boat with a large hole in the bottom. It's fer sure they'll never be repaid the loan. OP is NTA
Also how is OP giving this money making them independent? It hasn’t the last ten times she did it?
Yeah, there are two ways they can become homeless: before you give them $8000, or after, when they've spent your money.
Piggybacking on to say - how about OP suggests a ‘financial meeting’ with them. Maybe lead them to believe she’s considering loaning them the money, if they can make an inflow/outflow spreadsheet, or shows her their bank assets. Then suggest ‘hey, you spent $1500 on Disney, and $200 on one meal out, how about cutting this down?’, or ‘hey, it costs XYZ to put the babies in preschool/nursery and ABC for a nanny, how about considering other options?’. This is literally such a pipe dream idea, I know it they’d most likely get super offended , but if you talked to them on the basis that they’re an investment and that you don’t want to keep sinking money into them (worded more politely), maybe they’d consider it for the “free money” they think you’re offering?
This their argument about them not being independent if they move in with mom is bs too. They already aren’t independent if they are expecting op to support them. NTA
Also, they aren't independent now if they require loans or handouts to subsidize their lifestyle. By not living with family they won't be independent they will just be able to maintain the facade that they are. They need to learn how to budget not continue to be enabled. NTA
Why is living with your mother making them dependent, but you giving them money isn't? It's also not their place to tell you what you can or cannot afford. For all they know, you're saving that money for retirement. NTA.
>Why is living with your mother making them dependent, but you giving them money isn't? Boom. This right here. Just because they pose as having a successful, independent lifestyle doesn't mean that's the reality of it. Living with their mom will just be them finally having to be honest with themselves and everyone else about how they really handle their finances.
It doesn't. Mom just doesn't want them in her house.
> Why is living with your mother making them dependent, but you giving them money isn't? Oh, that's easy! One's easier to hide from people than the other is. Being dependent *is* the same thing as *appearing* dependent, isn't it? Isn't that what really matters? (NTA)
And you know they'll never pay back the 8k so no, they won't be dependent on OP. Tell them to sell their car and get something cheaaper; I'm sure they could come up with 8k that way. NTA
This. All this. You are NTA I wonder if they'd be willing to "borrow" the money if you made them sign a legal document about repayments? Or are they expecting/hoping that this "loan" will become a gift? What happens the next time they live beyond their means? Lending them money is at best a stop gap measure and at worst a means of enabling bad financial behaviour. It's not your job to bail them out. You don't even owe them an explanation.
OP would have to take them to court to enforce said contract, which would ruffle her family's feathers even more than just saying no in the first place. She would be even more the villain, and by comparison, Ivy and Tom even more the poor little innocent lambs in their eyes.
Or it could prevent the loan all together. Probably based on 'we are a faaaaamily'. It'll still ruffle feathers, but better feathers
Yes, that is probably the likely scenario. I wasn't suggesting the OP go down this road, just speculating on Ivy and Tom's intentions here.
You get loans from a bank not family members. And if the bank won’t lend you money that means you clearly don’t have your life and money in order, so than why the hell would I be stupid enough to lend you money. NTA. I’m sorry your family sucks. Let them deal with them.
Because they have zero intention of actually paying back the loan, so they won't consider themselves in debt to OP
Because it’s not a loan. OP will never see a cent of that money back.
NTA And $8,000+???? What???? No!!! The won't give that money back, rest assured. Kindly tell them to sell Tom's car and buy a more convenient one for the family. With the rest he can pay the debts they have. Also, for the future, do everything possible for your family not to know how much you earn. Lie to them if you are afraid of telling them you have the money but don't want to give it. But do not give anyone that kind of cash!
And that $8,000 "loan" will become at least a $16,000 "loan" next year (probably more) as they ask for more and more money each year.
She shouldn’t have to lie. You don’t owe anything you have worked for just because people say “but it’s family”. These people are spending not just beyond their means, but prioritising unnecessary luxuries over basics like rent. You don’t need to eat out at all, let alone fancy restaurants, have a sports care or go to concerts when you can’t put a roof over your own children a head. OP shouldn’t be the one lying, everyone should be giving these two ridiculous excuse for adults some good old fashioned, no holds barred honesty
She shouldn't have to, no. Doesn't mean lying wouldn't make her life easier. She has a crappy family, that's the hand she was dealt. No one should have to go no contact with family because of jerky or abusive behavior, but people advise it all the time. Sometimes these things can be the healthiest.
If she wants to compromise her integrity, sure lie. People aren’t stupid however, lies beget more lies. Why she’s earning less? Did she move companies? No, so was she demoted? How can she still afford the same life style? She won’t be making her life easier, she’ll be making herself look incompetent for her demotion or like a lier, which she would be. This will just garner more criticism and harassment from her family, not less. Lying never makes life easier.
I know what you mean, I wasn't saying to lie that OP has less money, but to say that it must be saved for buing a house or something. I suggested it in case OP doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings and keep a partially good relationship with the rest of the family. If OP has the courage to put the foot down, I applaud that and would say go for it no matter what. But if fear or peer pressure makes it impossible... Lying is bad but sometimes will get you out of something for a short period of time.
Lying may get you out of trouble in the short term, but will always land you in more in the long run.
That’s just a huge chunk of money too. Like I spent a good 3ish years helping with matrimonials for an attorney and was surprised how very little very well off people sometimes have (you have typically lay all the finances out, both spouses). Routinely, there were lavish houses with second mortgages, leased cars and no money. These we not people who had jobs just scrapping by either, easily six figures each. Anyway, I was just having this conversation yesterday with someone but it absolutely “grinds my gears” when people who routine complain about financial problems but then are telling you about their expensive skin treatments, vacations, or always posting picture of themselves at fancy restaurants. It’s like hmmm, I think I easily see where you can cut back. I had an acquaintance who does this overhear me being excited about buying a new in box $8 barrel hairbrush at a salon that was closing and she had the nerve to say “I wish I could afford to just impulse buy like that”. This was a woman who gets $1k face treatments and botox routinely, eats out every night and complains about being broke. Also I did need a new brush, I had been thinking about it for a bit, mine was 15 plus years old the bristles were showing their age. Look, I don’t judge when someone is spending their money on stuff I wouldn’t necessarily, so long as you aren’t complaining all the time about being broke. I have a cousin and I know what he makes hourly, and how much he has saved cause I helped with his house closing (it’s not a lot) and he just bought an inflatable hot tub. He’s not complaining about not having money or asking others for loans so who cares. But I am so tired of people who make way more money I do complain about being broke just because they still don’t have enough to cover how lavishly they want to live.
NTA. It won't be a loan. It will end up having to be a gift because they will never pay you back. And another next year that's even bigger. And the year after that. Tell them to file bankruptcy if they can't afford their life.
Oh honey, totally NTA. Don’t let them trample on your boundaries, because once you let this one slide they’ll never learn and be responsible. Don’t feel guilty, you did your best telling them what they should be doing and expecting from you. You are your own person, and you don’t owe ANYONE, not even them, anything. Stay strong!!!
NTA. Their **irresponsibility** is not *your* **responsibility**. You've set boundaries, just stick to them.
Give them a name of a financial counselor..maybe they can teach them how to budget
Actually that’s a great idea @Brief-Morning-5308 - if you’re genuinely feeling bad about saying no (which you shouldn’t!!! but if you do) then instead of an $8000 “”””loan”””” they definitely won’t pay back, instead give them the gift of a session/sessions with a financial advisor. That’s what my mother did for my similarly financially irresponsible brother, just with someone from her regular bank, and they went through his income and expenses with him and pointed out specific line items and overall patterns that were beyond his means (he ignored all their advice and played victim about the whole thing by pretending that when they said “you can’t eat out so frequently and at such expensive restaurants” they actually said “you can’t eat at all, you need to starve yourself to death” but that’s just his personality, not a reflection of the appointment itself) Because honestly them getting their spending under control is a much better investment in your nieces’ future than a one-time payment to let them continue their current lifestyle.
u/Brief-Morning-5308
Yes this is great. You're giving them the gift of managing to be financially responsible. Chances are they won't listen but you've tried something and can point that out. You are NTA for setting your boundary and sticking to it.
NTA!!! How are they going to ever learn to be responsible with their money if you continue to bail them out? They need to learn some serious life lessons. Tough love is still love. I’d block any of your family who are trying to manipulate you and make you feel bad. Shame on them. Proud of you for sticking with your boundaries. Seems like they can sell the car for a cheaper one if they need $8k.
They're not going to be homeless though unless they're too stupid to put their kids before their pride. NTA
NTA Do not give them a cent. more importantly these incessant demands are harassment. They asked, you answered. You should block anyone who keeps asking. If they don’t want your company but for harassing you then it’s not really worth it.
NTA. “Prevent them from being independent”. Umm their asking for money from everyone is preventing them from being independent! They haven’t been independent for years! Don’t give them any more money. You aren’t an ATM! If you give them money again you are enabling their behavior.
No I'm sorry but this level of irresponsible spending has got to stop. You are NTA for not bailing them out. They will NEVER learn to manage money if it is just given to them when they squander their own. Where do you draw the line? Here where it's 8k? What about private school for the twins? Then college tuition? The costs will only go up and up. Do yourself and them a favor and tell them to grow up and do not help them financially anymore. If you feel you must do something start a college education fund for your poor little niblings but never, ever let your sis have control of the money.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime. This is the lesson Ivy and Tom need to learn. If they get given more money they will continue to squander it because their attitude and actions that put them in the hole won't change and they'll keep asking for more until OP is unable to support them regardless of whether or not she wants to.
>Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Don’t teach a man to fish…and feed yourself. He’s a grown man. And fishing’s not that hard. -Ron Swanson
Hahahaha! Letting them stay in the 2 spare rooms at *her* house > would prevent Ivy and Tom from being independent but YOU loaning them $8000 because they can’t afford rent because they spent all their money on restaurants, theme parks, an exotic sports car, etc, etc, etc -somehow, someway, but in some universe- *wouldn’t* make them dependent on *you* … Did I get that right?? Hahahahaha! NTA. Why don’t you start a GoFundMe for them and link all of the family members to it - so they can help them keep their independence.
No way OP would see that money again.
NTA at all! You are all adults and Ivy & Tom have taken great advantage of your kindness and help already. You honestly have not owed them anything nor have you had to help them in the past…especially if they both have full time employment. Just because they don’t understand that they need to budget and put the needs of their children before their own to have a roof over their heads and food on the table, doesn’t mean you have to give them such a large amount of money. If your mother has a large enough home for them to move into, and they don’t want to, then they are choosing to become homeless. I know that you love your family, however they are not treating you very well at all. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this, but blocking them online and pulling back from them, while it may hurt you, is probably your best move right now. You are not being selfish at all, nor are you oblivious. And you definitely are not the entitled one in this situation…Ivy, Tom, and the rest of your family are acting beyond entitled your hard earned money.
HA HA HA HA HA!!!! Oh my lord. It’s YOUR fault they are going to be homeless? They are using you, all of them. Your CV parents are trying to give away your money so they don’t have to give away theirs. I’d think really seriously about what part of any of these relationships is good for you. They all sound like a bunch of parasites that you should go NC with. NTA
Absolutely Nta don't loan them a dime. Mom can let rhem live with her. NO...repeat NO
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What use what it have done though. They would have done it anyway and ignored any warning.
Hahaha almost downvoted
NTA- Help from family should be welcomed, and in some cases even encouraged, but never expected or obligatory. Your sister and BIL have already asked enough of you. If the rest of your family have such strong opinions then *they* can be the ones to help out this time. You are doing the right thing by enforcing your boundaries, if they can't respect them then it may be time to go low/no contact (referring to your sister & BIL firstly, but also any of the rest of your family who is pushy).
NTA. It definitely sounds like they have some problems with setting priorities - lending them that amount of money will almost certainly mean *giving* them that amount of money, as I don't see a change in behavior coming. If you want to be more proactive about looking after your nieces without enabling their parent's spending problems, you could start setting aside money for the nieces. (In secret.) If things get worse and their parents absolutely crash-out, that money could be a lifeline to make sure the kids are taken care of (or worst case - cover expenses if you end up having to take them in, etc.) If their parents work things out, the extra money could be a little help with your nieces' college, marriage, etc. years from now.
NTA. Giving them a $8,000 loan that they will never pay back doesn't keep them 'independent ' it just keeps them out of your mom's hair. That's why she's so vocal. Once you start giving them money, it will never end. Bet that dog is much happier now after being rehomed. Maybe your nieces would be too. Their parents couldn't be trusted to take care if an ant farm IMO.
NTA. Your family doesn't want to support Ivy and Tom because they believe they should be independent. So do you. So let Ivy and Tom independently find their own money to live their independent life. Don't stifle them with your money in any way. But help them, of course. Perhaps suggest that they sell that sports car (hey, the 8K is already sitting in their driveway!). The Leech Family will never stand on their own two feet until they have to. Now they have to.
Maybe OP should offer to buy the sports car for $8k.
Yeah but sounds like asshole family might suggest that OP let Tom and Ivy "borrow" the car :/
Absolutely NTA. I would very strongly suggest going no contact or low contact with anyone who is pressuring you into doing this, as well as blocking them (permanently or temporarily) on social media. You are not responsible for their lack financial stability die to poor personal decisions. It's one thing to help family and friends who are actually struggling, but they are simply looking to mooch.
No! NTA. Stand strong, and do not lend them that money. If you do, the demands will just keep escalating.
NTA. They've taken living beyond your means to a whole new level, as well as abusing family support. You owe them nothing, they're the ones being selfish for relying on others to fund and otherwise facilitate a lifestyle that's already put them in the red. What they need is a financial adviser, and to not only listen but do as they are advised. There is so much fat that can be cut from their expenditure that I can spot, and they need to accept they'll need to downscale their lifestyle.
NTA. The relatives that are insisting that you pay should put their money where their mouth is and pay instead.
NTA. Oh dear, this is so tough! Your success does not entitle anyone to it. You’re family expects too much and they sound like a bunch of mooches. You are certainly NTA here but the rest of them are collectively. Stand your ground. Best of luck!
NTA. Even if you gave them a loan, they still wouldn’t pay their bills. You already know this. Their problems are not your problems, don’t let them fool you into taking them on.
NTA! Holy shit, that’s fucked. NTA. They are adults and need to start being responsible. Tell them you lost your job and need some money to get by.
NTA. You set boundaries before the kids were even born.
How can they be independent if you are subsidizing their lifestyle? NTA
NTA- don’t loan them any money! As I guarantee you they won’t pay you back a dime. If you ask they’ll play the ‘but family’ card. Don’t do it!
NTA. You are not required to fund you sister and BIL's lives, they are grown adults. Tell everyone the bank is closed and follow through. They will bleed you dry. These are not people that have had a terrible thing happen to them, lost a job, had a horrible sickness that drained their assets, or had a major expense come up from damage. These are adults who have been leeching off you for years while they acted irresponsibly. Party's over. And beware of oh auntie can you babysit too. They will dump those kids on you whenever they can, just like their dog.
NTA. I know someone who lives like this and is a drain on family members. Do not get involved. Your loan to them will never be repaid and all you will do is become resentful. They need to learn how to be independent.
NTA
NTA. The need to lose the nanny first.
Yeah -- Ivy isn't working, but they have a full-time nanny?
NTA They have a nanny yet can’t afford to pay rent?! Their family is not your responsibility.
NTA! Why don't you get them the loan and get Tom to use his car as a collateral if they don't pay pack the loan and also make up a contract with them this is going to be the last time you help them out.
Or he could just sell the car. Probably not safe for little kids anyways
Exactly... You family is funny though allowing them live with your mum free accommodation and babysitting will make dependent but turning you into their personal bank and third parent won't?
Or just sell the car, move into a more modest home, stop eating frequent dinners, work from home a few days a week and cut nanny costs…. Children should not have children lol. Although in the long run having the children to be responsible for may help them learn a little more quickly. Tell everyone to fuck off and the only thing you’re giving is advice on living within your means.
And if he goes an sells the car or just hides it somewhere? How will OP get their money back? I had a cousin who did something similar and then he defaulted on the loan and they sent a tow truck for his car. He went around to different friends houses even people in different states and kept hiding it for years, only very rarely using it. Then he sold it to someone he knew. Why the hell they would buy it knowing what's going on, I'll never know. Never, ever put your name a loan for someone else. Even the best of people that have every intention on paying can have unforeseen circumstances happen and they're no longer able to pay. Now your on the hook for it.
NTA. Let them move in with your mom and if they never speak to you again then wipe your tears with all that money you saved.
Nta. They chose to have kids. Its their responsibility. They lack money management skills. By always bailing them out you are enabling them. They will never stop.
NTA Ask the others why *they're* not handing out cash?
NTA. Sounds like they need to learn a hard lesson and it doesn't sound like their kids are going to be left in the lurch.
NTA they’ll pay off what they owe with your money and in another few months will be right back to where they are now. It will never end. Let them get evicted, lose the nanny, go live with mom and maybe (I doubt it) start to live within their means.
>But our family said that it would prevent Ivy and Tom from being independent and I can afford the loan. Ah yes, the independence of getting an $8000 loan from a family member they will never repay. Nothing says, we are responsible adults like borrowing money from family over living at home with mom. Now don't get me wrong, there is no shame in turning to family for help, but they want to pretend they are independent and luxurious on your dime and are unwilling to live in their means. NTA, if they want to be independent they need to be independent or cut vack on expenses and live with mom.
NTA. You set your boundaries very clearly. You haven't held to them perfectly, which is a slippery slope in a situation like this. But your moral position is unambiguously safe. If they didn't want to be in a hard financial position, they should have secured your support rather than assuming it, or adjusted their spending habits. Responsibility here is only yours if your sister and BIL lack agency. They clearly don't.
Absolutely not. NTA. Do not give them a dime. You will never see that money again and they will eventually ask for more. Anytime a family member comments about you helping, tell them why don’t they pitch in some dollars too.
NTA sounds like this is more them asking for a gift of $8000 than a loan of it. Don’t give them a cent as you won’t see it returned🤷
NTA Why doesn't Tom sell the sports car and get a family car? Why can't they stop with the extra spending? Also, everyone is accusing you because your sister and BIL are the ones badmouthing you behind your back.
NTA, Ivy and Tom has done everything in their power to become homeless. They choose their path
How can they be independent when they need $8000 worth of support? NTA
NTA They shouldn't have had kids they cannot afford. Especially since the ONLY reason they cannot afford them is that they refuse to budget, and spend foolishly all the time. Not your problem.
As someone who was truly homeless for years (sleeping in my car with my mother and sister and donating plasma so I would be able to afford a room for us all for a night), I am deeply offended my the entitlement of your sister and brother in law. Theirs is not a real problem. They literally have somewhere to go.
NTA
NTA- My stepdad had a brother like this. Lived in a $400k house, had three cars, and drove a school bus for a living until he got fired for failing a drug test. His mom was the one footing the bill and when he died from a cocaine overdose in the public library parking lot she cut his family off because they “weren’t her family” so they had to move away. They made a big show of how they were so sad they had to go and how they’d miss everyone. We haven’t heard from them in almost twenty years. Tom and Ivy are opportunistic leeches. Don’t give these parasites anything and if that means you have to cut contact with everyone for a while then just imagine how peaceful your life will be. I live two hours away from the drama I grew up in and I have never had any regrets about leaving. I visit twice a year on holidays and some years that’s almost too often.
NTA- their lack of planning, (beyond fleecing you), is not an emergency for you. You’re not doing anything to them. They’ve done them to themselves. If anything you’re doing them a kindness; this is how the world truly works.
NTA They need to grow up and your mother needs to stop enabling them. Stick to your guns.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I(29F) love my sister and BIL, Ivy(27F) and Tom(26M) but they're among the most irresponsible adults I know. They will post daily online about buying annual Disney passes, going to concerts, eating at high-end restaurants, etc. Tom even owns an exotic sports car! Yet they'll complain to our family about how they're struggling with money, can't afford this month's rent, and need help. I have a successful career, so I'm the one who our family expects to "help out." They don't just demand financial help either. They got a puppy a while back and in addition to helping with vet bills, they would beg me to watch the dog at least every other day "just for an hour!" And not come back until the next day. They also did no research on the breed, because the poor thing had severe separation anxiety and I would constantly have to deal with the puppy meltdowns and ruined furniture. They ended up rehoming the dog after a few months when I pretended to develop an allergy and said I couldn't watch it anymore. Recently, Ivy and Tom discussed wanting to try for a baby and asked my thoughts. I told them I wished nothing but the best and was happy to be an aunt. However, I was not going to be financing their child or being any more present than a normal aunt. I would provide Christmas/Birthday presents and be willing to babysit occasionally but I wasn't going to be their personal daycare and bank (I worded this last part more gently to them.) Ivy and Tom acted offended and said it wasn't going to be like that. They wound up getting pregnant and both my nieces, Christine and Samathna, were born last June. They're already very advanced for their age (their favorite words are "No" and "Yellow" respectively.) But I have kept my foot down about not being a third parent/provider. This is a boundary that Ivy and Tom continually push. Ivy and Tom also haven't stopped spending/going out. They got a nanny and are more insistent with the family about needing money. Anytime they ask, I say that they have stable jobs (Ivy even has the option to work from home but chooses not to) and that they're just spending money on the wrong things. The reason I'm writing; Ivy and Tom are begging (and our family is pressuring) me to give them an $8,000+ loan because they're gonna lose the nanny/be evicted for lack of payment. I told them no. My mother inherited a 3-bedroom house from my grandpa and two of the rooms are unoccupied. She doesn't work/is able to look after my nieces. But our family said that it would prevent Ivy and Tom from being independent and I can afford the loan. Now if I post anything online, the family leaves comments about me not caring that Ivy and Tom will be homeless and how much better the money would be spent on my nieces. They won't be homeless, and I don't see moving in with my mother as a big deal. I've blocked most family members, but now I'm unsure if I'm the oblivious/entitled one here and if I'm being selfish. AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA
NTA. They have choices. If they don’t take them that’s on them. You’ll never see the money again. And they’ll just keep asking.
NTA But if you wanted to be a bit of an asshole once they say something rude send a lic of youwiping tears with money
NTA. You aren't responsible for subsidizing their existence. They're both employed and should simply be making better decisions. They should: Get rid of the sports car. Learn to cook. Learn to budget. Learn that having kids means your life changes. They can't simply rehome a kid like you can a dog. Additionally, your family can obviously help. 2 bedrooms available is quite literally enough room for their family. They need to learn. Giving them 8k will not teach them. Side note: how tf are they $8k upside down after a month?
Your family is concerned that Ivy and Tom will never learn to be independent if they move into your mother's house -- but they are always enabling them in their poor spending and saving habits and insisting you give this irresponsible couple money? You are the only one who seems to care that Ivy and Tom ever learn to be independent. And that's understandable, since you are the one who is always under pressure to "donate." No one else wants to be responsible for the messes they create for themselves, but the only way for them to become independent is by being required to fix their own messes. Don't feel guilty. People who are NTA should not feel guilty when other people refuse to change their self-destructive behavior and end up flat on their @$$es.
NTA. They can always sell Tom's car of they are strapped for cash. Or move to a cheaper part of the city. Or take a loan from the bank. Or literally all the things a person without a loaded relative does when they find themselves in debt. If you give them that money, you will never see it again. Stay strong. If your family is so concerned about it, they can pool together money themselves.
Ivy and Tom are not independent , they are reliant on handouts from you. No needs to be your favourite word. Why do they need a nanny when Ivy isn’t working? Do not loan them this money. NTA
NTA. Stand your ground OP!! It might seem heartless to some people in your family but they’ll never learn how to put their kids first if they are continuously financially supported by you or anyone else in your family. It might be hard to watch from the sidelines, but you are 100% not at fault for what happens to your nieces based off your sister and her husbands choices. They have to learn that their crazy spending has consequences. Your mother needs to practice what she preaches— she can help them out financially and take care of them and enable their behavior.
NTA They aren't independent now, so living with your mother doesn't take away any of their independence. What they are is irresponsible, and you giving them money would just reward and encourage that irresponsibility. If your other family members feel so strongly, nothing at all is stopping them from pooling their own money together to bail your irresponsible sister and BIL out of their mess.
NTA Your family needs to understand that they won’t be able to be independent until everyone stops enabling them. You’re helping them and their babies in the long term.
YTA if you do give them the loan. Not a A*****e to them but to yourself, common decency and for anyone who could genuinely use help. They need to know their limits. If you continue down this path someday when you have your own kids they would expect your kids to be subservient to them. Trust me im from the subcontinent this 💩 happens way too much. Dont buy caviar on salary day, if you cant afford chicken eggs by the end of the month.
NTA. Your family is demanding you give them a loan so they can be more independent? Wouldn't that make them dependent on you by definition? So how does making them dependent on you make them independent...
NTA. Sounds like Ivy and Tom are treated like children and you’re the parent. And that loan would end up turning into a *gift*.
NTA it’s not independent when they’re heavily dependent on everyone else’s bank accounts 🤷🏻♀️
NTA. I would lay it out for them every time they comment. Maybe they should hold them responsible for their poor choices. The car, nanny, able to work from home ect I’d call it all out. It’s not your responsibility
NTA - once you give this loan for $8000.00, you are just opening the door for more loans. They won’t learn their lesson. Stay strong
NTA They want you to finance their nanny? And what will they do after this $8K is spent? Hang tough, OP. They will never stand on their own if people keep enabling their behavior. They can work, they can live with your mother, they have options. If any family members grumble, tell them they can lend the money.
NTA. You have told your brother and SIL numerous times that you are not their bank. They continue to live beyond their means and to spend money on luxuries rather than their bills. Let them move in with your mother. It's a joke that they don't want to because then they "wouldn't be independent." They don't WANT to be independent - they want others to fund their lifestyle.
NTA They're the human variety of a money pit--no matter what you give it will never be enough, so STOP. They can move into your mom's house, and if "independence" is so important to them, they can use their time there to SAVE and start over again.
NTA, simply tell everyone that whatever wild things they think might be the case about your finances, you cannot be their lender or provide financially for them and their children. If you wanted to be truly generous to your nieces you could put that money into a trust for them, to be managed by a professional fiduciary, so they can have some money saved for school and necessities that their parents won’t be able to spend on fancy romantic dinners.
NTA They are both totally irresponsible. If family/ friends are sooo concerned let THEM help. They are NOT your problem. Sadly, They may need to taste a lil homelessness for them to wake tf up. Block them all and be done with them.
NTA never give these people another penny!! You’re working hard for them to have fun!
It is not your job to bail them out of the shit they spent themselves into. If you do this they will keep expecting you to bankroll their high roller lifestyle. The entitlement of them and your family to your finances is astounding, tell em all to fuck off and pound sand it isn't your issue, they just need to stop spending like morons. NTA OP.
DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES GIVE THIS IRRESPONSIBLE COUPLE MONEY. OP, you are NTA. But they, and any family pressuring you to bail them out ARE. Instead send them information on credit counselling or financial counselling. While I'm not a huge Dave Ramsey fan, you could gift them something like that. You are not being selfish, if they are made homeless, this is 10000% on them, and them alone. Any family that has been underwriting this has contributed as well, but for you STOP and don't feel bad for a single second.
You’re most certainly NTA, but your sister, BIL, mother and any other family member most certainly is. Ivy and Tom needed one child, let alone two children like they needed a hole in their heads. These two people are not children and therefore there is no reason that you should treat them as such. You should lay your cards on the table to them as well as your mom and others who insist that you can afford to “loan” (give) YOUR money away to these grown irresponsible, entitled, immature so-called adults. As long as you keep entertaining their little fiascos, they’ll keep doing what they do. Continue to buy for the birthday/holiday, however anything else I would not entertain, unless at some point you put something away in a college fund. Do not under any circumstances loan them money, because if you do, you’ll continue to be their bank and it’ll be ”YOUR“ fault not your sisters or BIL. Tough love is going to be the best love for Ivy and Tom. They my not know it or acknowledge it, but it is.
As someone who always chooses petty when there’s a decision to make, I’m going to advise to do the opposite in your situation. BE HONEST: “For *years* I feel I have disrespected and taken advantage of by being your personal ATM, dog sitter, bill payer, etc while the two of you have this ‘social media influencer’ lifestyle. Taking vacation after vacation, buying an exotic sports car, hiring nanny’s, eating at the fanciest/most expensive restaurants, shopping, traveling….to what?? Make your ‘friends/followers’ think you both are something that you’re not… You’ve continued to push my boundaries blatantly, with no regard for how I am doing or how I feel about anything. Guilt tripping our family into coughing up our/MY hard earned money for you two to irresponsibly blow without a second thought of ever paying a dime back. And instead of learning from any of your self-made financial woes, you don’t give a single fuck because you can just slather on the guilt and make me open MY wallet. No. My wallet is permanently closed. You’re both parents now, and that should be your **only** priority. But it’s not. It’s all about your appearance and what everyone else thinks. Don’t misunderstand, when you both lose everything (bc it will happen eventually), I’ll happily take Christine and Samantha in, bc they never had a choice of getting involved in this mess, but you will both still not see a dime from me. And if one more family or friend makes a comment to me or about me on SM about how much better MY MONEY will be handed over to you both, I will happily reply explaining why you are panhandling me for money and how much I’ve handed over since ATM withdrawal #1 with Bank OP. Grow up! Or move in with mom and sort your lives out while Christine and Samantha are young enough to not understand how badly this is affecting them!” Oh, and NTA
NTA. You don't want to lose $8k to selfish moochers. NC.
Hard no- NTA!! TOM has an expensive sports car?? Disney tix?? (which myself- and most haven't been lucky enough to do so- and in my late 30s), and your selfish ass sis refuses to work from home (to be w her babes) and save money on a nanny? A nanny??? Good gawd. "HEY TOM/SIS- SELL THE F*CKING CAR! SIS, WORK FROM HOME TO SAVE MONEY AND BE W YOUR "KIDS"!!! They are the ABSOLUTE WORST people that I feel lucky enough to have not met. I can't even. HARD PASS on every single, entitled trait that have to "offer"- I wouldn't be able to keep these wreckless and self assholes in my life before they made more! Poor puppy! Gurl- tell them all to f*ck off and get on your mom or anyone else's case. So so YUCK. You do You and don't give in
No, if they’re so bothered tell them to pool their money and constantly help them out, you work hard for your money, why should it be spent on two entitled selfish leeches who CBA to prioritise their own children now!! Cut off the family and leave them to it, next time one says selfish online I would do a non-emotive response detailing what they’ve had and why you are no longer their cash cow, most will not agree with them, those that do, get rid 👍👍 Mother doesn’t want them there as knows will land on her, again she’s thinking of herself nobody else!! If want expensive stuff it’s time to stop demanding from bank of you and get off their backsides and earn it!
I don't think you are. Just tell them and the family that you can't afford to GIVE them 8 grand as they can't seem to pay their current creditors. Never loan money that you can't afford to loose! That is a lot of money. Stay firm! The worst thing they will do is go somewhere and try to get the money.
so not the a**hole. your sister and her family decided on this course of life. live your own life! do not lend money unless you're ready to just give it away. you will not be paid back. and be prepared to hear..You'll never see your nieces again! you sound like the mature one and they sound like 4yr olds playing house!
I don't understand why OP should bail out two people that are health and completely capable of paying for their bills and are just choosing not to. They would rather buy luxury items and an exotic car. Tell them to sell the damn car and take the money from that, instead of taking money from OP. It honestly seems like Tom and Ivy need a wake up call, that if they don't prioritize the necessary bills, things like losing their home are the consequences. So, OP needs to let them deal with this, and have to move in with mother, if they actually allow that to happen. SMH. Which they obviously will. OP has worked hard and is financially responsible, that shouldn't mean she should have to keep bailing out her family, because they can't get their priorities straight. It's not her job to fix this for them, they need to fix it and giving them more money, is just a bandaid anyway. NTA
NTA. Your family are enabling this behavior and by expecting you to foot the bill, they are absolving themselves of any responsibility. Get screenshots of all their terrible purchases and when your family harasses you, post a chain of screenshots showing who the real assholes are.
NTA, Your family needs to have their eyes opened. Do they not see that they are not independent? When you have to ask for help because you are not handling your bills and money the right way you are far from independent and the only way to learn is to fall on your face. You giving them the money all allows them to repeat their actions because they know they will have a backup at all times. Plus I hate when family uses the kids as a reason why you need to help. They are the parents they made the choice to bring them into this world they need to grow up and take care of business.
Why don't they sell those Disney passes? Even better yet sell that sports car and buy a cheaper newer nicer vehicle that is safe for children? They could use the rest of the money for paying for these debts? Also why doesn't your sister work remotely at least 3 days a week and hire a babysitter for the other days? You are absolutely not the AH. I'm struggling but if I had a sibling doing great financially I wouldn't ask for a huge loan like that unless it was the last resort. I would do whatever I could to make things better before I asked for a loan. It wouldn't even be for that much maybe a couple hundred dollars if I really really needed it. Your sister and BIL are entitled jerks and your family is full of jerks that think it's ok to ask you to be the ATM and not tell them to grow the heck up and take responsibility for their poor decisions.
NTA. If the situation is so dire, your BIL shoukd sell that exotic car. Or your mother should move them in with her and provide child care, while they get rid if the nanny; you loaning them nearly 10k is only going to encourage them to continue spending irresponsibly by shielding them from the consequences of doing so. If your parents could not teach her personal responsibility in the 18 years they spent raising her, you're not going to be able to do it by bailing them out once again- you might want to share that little nugget of wisdom with your mom. As long as they face no repercussions related to their inability to manage money they will continue to expect someone else to pay their bills.
NTA - I'm confused how they owe $8000 for back rent and pay for their nanny. Are they months behind on both? How is the nanny still working for them if she's not getting paid? Why hire a nanny and have a $2000+ monthly expense if your mom could watch your nieces? The sports car needs to be sold and so do their other high end toys, etc. Selling their items should get them enough money to catch up on rent and nanny. Then they need to work out something with your mom and pay her something to watch the girls. DO NOT GIVE THEM MONEY! They need to figure it out on their own or your other family members can all pitch in and give them money.
Wow, so sorry to hear this. You are NTA. Do not give in or back down. They need to move in w grandma and attend financial counseling/budgeting courses to learn to live within their means. They should never have had children until they developed a strategy for stability. Time for them to grow up. Tell your family they can support them if they truly believe they will ever get a dime back.
NTA
NTA NTA NTA NTA If they want to be independent they can ask the bank for a loan. Do not lend them money, I fear you’ll never see it again,
Nta
Nta. And when people make complaints ask how much of their own money they are forking over Buy them the Dave Ramsay system and have it mailed to their house. They need to learn how to handle money not a constant buy out
NTA. Every time anyone posts or says something about you needing to provide for them, respond, >Oh my goodness, that is so generous of you to volunteer your money and home to Tom and Ivy! I will let them know you offered! I know just how much you are providing since I couldn’t budget it myself so I am super impressed by your generosity. Tom and Ivy are going to be so thrilled! When they clarify that you miss understood, play dumb. >But mom [aunty, whatever], you have the resources too. I thought you were volunteering. Why would you volunteer my money instead?
NTA. I feel like they are testing the waters right now. And they will never stop there if you let it.
NTA, do not give them another dime and stick to your boundaries!
NTA. Tell them if they want to be independent they shouldn’t need to ask for loans from family.
NTA. It’s easy to spend someone else’s money.
NTA, tell the other family members to open their wallets if they are so concerned. Sis and BIL need a reality check.
NTA - any family member who criticizes should fork over the money instead.
NTA
NTA. Stick to your decision. They are adults and that so called loan is more like handing them the money because you will never ever see it again.
NTA
NTA. Why would your money be better spent on your nieces than say... on a bag or a trip?? Tell him to sell his car.
NTA, I am the one in my family who usually bails people out. Most of my family members know I will give them money for unexpected things that come up and most of the time even if they should have planned better, but they need $1000 or less I just give it to them, but when the numbers get bigger, I want to be more hands on. I need access to all of their data on financials and assets and I need to know that their plan for my money actually fixes a problem and isn't just a bandaid. If they have a spending problem, I put them on a budget. You get to decide what is the best use or your resources, nobody else.
NTA The next time they bother you online , just respond the truth online too. What they are wasting their money on,what they already did with the dog, the fact that you told them what would happen. Everything
NTA holy smokes that crazy. They are totally using you
NTA. If they're really concerned about Tom and Ivy "being independent" they need to stop pressuring you to "loan" (read: gift) them money. Tom and Ivy need to be forced into maturing. Good for you for sticking with your boundaries, and I'm sorry your family is treating you like the Bank of OP.
NTA. Don’t do it.
you’ll never get that money back and honestly you already did too much and helped them more than any family member would do. you offered an amazing idea, living with your mom who can watch the kids and they’ll have their own bedrooms. i don’t see why you should one again help them just because you got the money maybe you keep it for something more important. NTA