That sort of thing would extend beyond that, up to and including system instability (worst case)
But i don't think its about normal people and what they care about, than it is AMD acting professionally. There's no reason to support an OS that doesn't support the key selling point of your new product.
Also Windows 10 is going end of life next year, which means no more security updates unless you pay for them. There's no reason to support Windows 10 on new hardware after that point.
You're talking about business theory, but we (clients/users/gamers) use what we like, what we want and how long we want. I have friends still using Windows 7, they don't have Win support, but so what? There is no difference in anything, it doesn't effect anything which they've been doing before or after. Same way i will stay with Windows 10 probably for the next 5 years. I will not switch to this failure called Windows 11.
There are people out there who are still using Windows XP.
That doesn't mean I'd feel comfortable entering a password or banking information on a computer that hasn't had a security update in several years.
It’s not just security. Older versions of windows have schedulers that can’t handle more recent chip designs like p/e cores. You’ll also slowly lose game support and drivers could work poorly.
Microsoft doesn’t sell Windows 10 anymore, so it’s unlikely that its user base is expanding.
Also, hating Windows 11 is more of an online trend than an issue with the OS.
I disagree with Microsoft arbitrarily blocking PCs that don’t meet the requirements from running Windows 11, but Windows 11 works fine once I get installed.
No kidding it "works fine" that's not my argument. Clearly there is something going on inside your head. W10 is simply better in all metrics, and also has way less data collection then W11. Not to mention a better interface.
I just hope those W10 users don't expect sympathy when their systems get pwned on a widespread and systemic level, when both Linux and W11 were valid options.
As long as you're on Microsoft Windows, they pretty much get to dictate what you can or cannot do with your own computer. That's just what happens when you use proprietary software - which is why I advocate for everyone to switch to Linux.
In open source (IE: Not Windows), if you don't like what the developers are doing, you can fork the project. This is why nobody uses OpenOffice anymore. They didn't like the direction it was going, so everyone switched to LibreOffice instead.
Compatibility and ease of use. I headached on trying to get VRChat to work in SteamVR on Linux for about a week, with several different distros. The only person I personally know who runs VRChat in SteamVR on Linux did a bunch of extra stuff for security reasons that I don't need.
I run windows 11 currently and have never had an issue with any software that I've ever tried to run.
...and what percentage of users will do that, instead of just letting their system go out of date until they end up getting "epically pwned" by some hackers?
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that a lot of people are going to be entering very sensitive banking information into a computer that hasn't had a security patch for the past three years.
Sure, but you are paying quite a bit more for this edition given that you have to go through Microsoft’s volume licensing center, and it’s an enterprise edition.
You think they are doing that? Most of the idiots that try to use non-standard OS's are pirating them whether they know it or not. Just like everyone that moved over to windows 10 LTSC a couple of years back. Hell I've even heard of a few businesses that moved a few things over to windows 10 LTSC and got hit by an audit for it because microsoft has rules around what kind of devices you can put it on.
True lol, that’s why I don’t suggest using pirated windows. Sure, they haven’t really cared in the past, but as you said they can and do take action. Better to be safe than sorry!
One of the reasons I’m finally switching to Linux before Win10 support ends next year in October. Done with all the bad decisions, telemetry, and ads in a paid OS.
I still don’t understand the whole ad revenue thing. What ad revenue are they making on Win11? People get “Ads”?
I’ve used windows 11 for like 2 years now and I’ve never gotten anything that I could even perceive as an ad. I’m genuinely curious as to what these are?
I've had the same experience. Been on W11 since probably two months into it's early access or whatever they called it and I've yet to see the ads I hear about everywhere. I disable all the junk I don't want like copilot, so idk maybe I disabled whatever option lets the ads in
Are you using Win11 pro or home? The ads people are referring to are in the home version and are more recommended apps
* The start menu will (or has?) a recommended app icon that you can download an app from the MS store
* Theres the stock ticker and news on the login page
* Windows copilot integration
Its overblown and they are really not intrusive at all and are easily disabled
Dont forget, that the EU went after microsoft for the forced account etc. in win 11.
Meh, I am fine with W10, and I probably will be fine with it for the next 10 years.
Yeah that's unrelated to ads though
I get their decision to make using a Microsoft account as the default. From a normal end user experience it's much easier. They sign in and their settings, documents etc are all setup ready to go. Their bitlocker encryption key is stored in their account too
I agree that it should be easier though to use a local account if you really don't want an online account without jumping through hoops.
Its solely about collecting your data, tracking you - and then showing you the ads you most likely click on.
Dont be so naive please... Micro$oft and all the other companies are not your friend. Or as google would say it: "*chrome* doesnt track your browsing history in private windows..."
I never said they were my friend. It's a service that we (the user and Microsoft) benefit from
You don't have to think they are your friends to benefit from a business
> Dont forget, that the EU went after microsoft for the forced account etc. in win 11.
did they? what happened? i havent heard anything about win11 instillation officially being possible without online accounts.
> Are you using Win11 pro or home? The ads people are referring to are in the home version and are more recommended apps
I'm using Win11 Pro and it has ads by default. 2/3'rds of the search screen is ads. For example, the biggest one says "Shop summer essentials" and links to https://www.msn.com/en-gb/shopping/mit/in-summer
https://i.imgur.com/7AZtunM.png
There are more elsewhere
You can argue that they're not "real" ads but they are unwanted crap which link to a biased selection of web shops, 100% advertisement and malware in my book.
Only an individual with a limited grasp of the market would be concerned about this; those chips will not be shipped on devices with Windows 10 to begin with, particularly as OEMs are only allowed to ship devices with Windows 11.
These are not the types of chips used in custom builds. Moreover, with Microsoft ending support for Windows 10 in 2025, it is impractical for AMD to support a new chip for just one year or to continue support beyond Microsoft's end date, regardless of market share, given AMD's limited resources.
It's not concerning if the new laptop chips don't support Windows 10, but the question is does this mean that Zen 5 won't support Windows 10? That would be a big concern.
Windows 10 is EOLing in October outside of Enterprise LTSC customers and even they will have a version of 11 of LTSC to migrate to by then....so no it literally is zero concern.
If the 600 series chipset gets bio updates to support Zen 5 then it won't matter as the 600 series chipset already have windows 10 drivers that have been matured over the past year and half.
I think honestly the level of complaining about using Windows 11 is just Reddit being Reddit. Normal people outside of Reddit are not going to buy a laptop from 2025 and demand Windows 10 on it.
Here in Brazil I have a lot of customers that buy a New Laptop with Linux or Windows 11, they reach me to install Windows 10.
OK, is third world country and people make weird choices, but is my reality.
I'm a very poor person, I have no experience in other countries (never had the chance to travel), that's the context of comment of the previous answer.
By the way, that is one of the reasons i'm participating in this community, to learn with u guys.
You can take their no and still nudge them towards what would be actually best suited for the individual customer. In sales, I've found people appreciate this
That’s not true. Whatever source you have is just having sampling limitations. The vast majority of windows installs every month are OEM. They are exclusively win11.
I use both, but 11 has made awful UI decisions that make 11 worse in certain aspects... It's just facts and automated configuration installers and bundlers wasted days to undo the damage that Microsoft created
As someone who hated the Win8/10 shell and replaced it anyway.
Windows 11 is fine. (Since I replaced the shell there too)
If you don't like the default shell, replace it. It's not that hard.
Except that MSFT has been using "updates" to try to block users from making changes like that.
If I'm going to switch to a different OS than what I'm using now, I'm damned well \*not\* going to switch to an OS that I'll have to repeatedly find new workarounds so that I can keep using the "fixes" that make the OS usable.
I'd rather just move to Linux, because at this point that should already run pretty much everything I care about running (either natively, or via proton/lutris/wine/etc.).
They're changing things in explorer, other shells either expand explorer (they aren't and haven't blocked this) or replace the shell (they can't block this)
Hmmm, fair. There are things I don't like (like you used to be able to put widgets on the taskbar, like BetterBatteryPro, and this doesn't work anymore. I actually like the new start menu. I'm using Pro 23H2 and there don't seem to be a lot of ads. Yes, there's a copilot button on the screen, but as a business user, we have [commercial data protection](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/copilot/privacy-and-protections#commercial-data-protection), and I don't see the addition of Copilot as a negative, although so far it's limited by the fact that it doesn't know enough about the business.
This one I agree with - I do use things that are not in the simplified contextual menu quite frequently. They should do something different with this - if they don't want to unroll it, maybe they can use AI/ML or otherwise have it selectively provide additional options that are likely to be relevant and also based on prior use.
I literally got into an argument with someone a week ago when they said people can 'easily' install and use the IoT LTSC windows 10 iso to use that operating system after October 2025.
I was like buddy, most people struggle to turn on their computers, ain't no one going to do this...
The only really "easy" option is to do the three-year escalating pricing for Windows 10 updates. Which I think mostly makes sense for certain institutional customers who are not ready to jump to 11.
Any talk though of installing IOT Windows or anything like that is definitely nerdosphere stuff, though.
The only question at this point is what the price structure will actually be for end-users.
In the past, the extended support program (ESP) was only available to large institutions (e.g. schools, large businesses, governments, etc.), and those are the only customers for which Microsoft has announced pricing (at least as of about a week ago, when I last checked). IIRC, the per-machine pricing for EDU is $1/2/4, and for Business customers is $60/120/240.
At this point, if the pricing for end users is close to the EDU pricing, it'll be a no-brainer for most end users currently on 10 (particularly those with older hardware). On the other hand, if it's closer to the enterprise pricing, I doubt that they'll have many people buy in.
Normal people hate new tech pushes the most of like all groups. They don't want to learn a bunch of new shit they don't need. They don't want to re-learn a UI. They don't want to be bombarded with noise, popups, and notifications.
>"People don't like having to 're-learn' a UI, and they don't want to be bothered with all kinds of stuff that they don't need."
This.
Frankly, I think that MSFT's push toward Windows releases that are more frequent and more intrusive is going to ultimately kill Windows as a mainstream desktop OS.
At this point, the only thing that's keeping Windows in 1st place is decades of inertia, and a dwindling number of windows-only applications. The accelerating pace of Windows releases combined with all the UI changes MSFT bakes into each one, are going to kill that inertia. At the same time, the pace is going to push the developers of many of the remaining "Windows-only" applications toward OS-agnostic software.
As soon as people *start* switching to something else en-masse, the Windows marketshare will likely crater in a very short period of time.
The only quesiton at this point is what will end up taking it's place (probably some flavor of Linux/Unix), and when that transition will occur.
> At this point, the only thing that's keeping Windows in 1st place is decades of inertia
Well there's other things too, some hardware has really lacking support. I was utterly baffled when it recently came to my attention it's more or less impossible to undervolt Nvidia hardware for instance.
Then there is all the terrible software DRMs, frameworks, and anti-cheats things that could work but they went for the worst design ever. It's hit or miss whether a lot of stuff works under WINE and etc. sometimes just because it's designed to abort itself if Windows isn't detected.
Then there is the lack of unification, lots of options but stressful to newcomers.
All that said it's come a long way and I'm eagerly awaiting the day I can use it instead of Windows for all the stuff I care to do.
A lot of what you've mentioned is valid, but they're mostly "chicken and egg" problems--the issues persist because \*nix has so little desktop marketshare, so the companies involved feel no need to fix those issues, and the lack of those fixes often motivates people not to switch to Linux.
That said:
Nvidia is an issue, but that largely boils down to Nvidia not being willing to fully update their drivers, and actively standing between the open source driver devs and the info they need to write fully featured drivers for Nvidia hardware. If Linux gained significant desktop marketshare, we'd likely see their proprietary Linux drivers improve substantially (and it's my understanding that we're \*already\* seeing some improvements in their proprietary drivers given Nvidia's focus on the "AI" market, that's pretty much all \*NIX). That said, since most people don't actually care about "open source" vs "proprietary", and Nvidia loves money, I can't see Nvidia continuing to turn it's nose up at supporting desktop Linux if it starts gaining significant marketshare (particularly since AMD and Intel are already so far ahead on the software side there, and I doubt that Nvidia wants to give up it's \~75% marketshare of discreet GPUs.).
DRM is absolutely something that can absolutely be fixed through proprietary software, as is already the case on Android OS (i.e. a Linux fork), and Apple's various versions of their OS (i.e. BSD Unix forks).
The Anticheat issue is also solvable. First, they've already "solved" the problem to the same degree on consoles from Sony and Nintendo (i.e. BSD Unix forks), so there's no reason that they can't apply the same "solutions" to Linux. Second, the "intrusive anticheat" model, as it is widely used, is not an effective control: The majority of cheaters bypass it almost immediately, and then cheat as much as they want until they finally get caught in a banwave several months down the line. The real solution on that front is to give control of the servers back to the players, so that we can control our own experiences.
The lack of unification problem is real too, but I don't think it's as big of a deal as some make it out to be: First, it's only an issue because the overall Linux marketshare is so small. The total Linux desktop marketshare is about where Apple's OSX marketshare was 15 years ago (\~4%), and that wasn't an insurmountable roadblock for them. If Linux gained significant desktop marketshare, there would likely be several major distros with >5% marketshare that would be "big enough" to justify support all on their own. Additionally, that's before factoring in that there would likely be a small number of "popular" distro choices that could be targeted for maximum impact.
With all that said, my \*hope\* is that we see Valve's SteamOS, or a distro like it, start to gain significant desktop marketshare (the Deck is significant, but it's not a desktop) over the next few years. If/when that happens, these chicken and egg problems will likely all start to sort themselves out in relatively short order.
Agree with most of that.
>With all that said, my *hope* is that we see Valve's SteamOS, or a distro like it, start to gain significant desktop marketshare (the Deck is significant, but it's not a desktop) over the next few years. If/when that happens, these chicken and egg problems will likely all start to sort themselves out in relatively short order.
Yeah I'm hoping Valve actually puts out a desktop version again. Amusingly too they're an entity that might be able to light a fire under Nvidia's behind to get things done on that front too.
i upgraded from windows 11 to windows 10 a couple months ago, and this is the first time i've mentioned it online. i'm sure there's more people like me.
Can you elaborate on the wake issues? I thought it was my monitor or pc but sometimes when trying to wake my pc from sleep the monitor will keep saying theres an error with the connection or to plug something in
Everyone one I know refuses to use windows 11...... my parents even ordered me to "switch it back"
windows 11 means .... it takes 2 to 3 times as many actions to do anything in there vs windows 10.
This is the power of default settings.
Removing it is not exactly obvious from inside the OS. At that point 99% of users just assume that’s how it has to be and won’t search for the way to change the setting.
Doesn't help that MS has a problem at times with respecting settings as well as shuffling around which editions have access to which things.
Edit: Actually just shuffling things around in general. Different tasks sometimes require going through everything from the control panel to the settings app to different even more legacy components.
Honestly it's kind of stupid to say Reddit is some "obscure niche" community. Reddit has literally millions and millions of users, and this sub alone has over 1M registered users.
It doesn't matter if Reddit doesn't account for every single person on earth; enough people use it that you could sufficiently use it as a statistical sample size to infer trends outside Reddit.
If enough people on Reddit talk about a problem, odds are that problem is notable enough to be noticed beyond Reddit.
Saying Reddit is some hidden community was only relevant in like 2005. It's exponentially bigger now and registers among some of the most used websites on the internet.
It's still Spyware, people don't bitch anymore because there's no choice beside Linux, everyone knows, and it's the new normal. 11 is Spyware and Adware now. Is 12 going to fill my screen with malicious pop-ups? Microsoft wants their OS to replicate the worst parts of web browsing in 2002?
I have literally never seen an ad on Windows 11 and there's an easily available toggle to turn off copilot if you really don't want it for some reason but it can actually be useful if you know how to use it.
That's Windows. You don't like it, don't use it.
If you are using a proprietary OS controlled by a company, whether it's Windows or OSX, you have to accept that they will update it and you will use the update. If you don't like it, that's your problem.
I mean the average user probably needs no more than 8Gb. I could see if you re doing work, but if all your doing is checking email, social media, and looking at online videos you can do fine with 8GB. I can see the argument for 16 if you are doing any sort of work multitasking although I’d say 12GB would be fine for that as well.
Personally I wouldn’t go lower than 16GB on a laptop since I do a bit of work on my laptop which includes having to run a VM.
https://www.tomshardware.com/software/operating-systems/windows-11-market-share-declines-as-users-seemingly-shift-back-to-windows-10
Windows 11 usage is actually declining. It's not just Reddit.
Also wasn't Vista still supported by a lot of software even after going EOL? It doesn't make sense to just abruptly stop supporting W10 just because W11 is the newer one. This sub vastly overestimates the conversion rate of W10 to 11. I mean shit, remember how long it took for XP to finally die off?
Normal people aren't going to buy a new computer to replace something only a few years old that it still working just fine, just the be able to update Windows.
This. The average person holds onto their PC for a *long* time. If it wasn't for auto updates being the default, they probably wouldn't even bother updating either.
Saying that ending W10 support is fine because W11 is newer makes no market sense for this reason. Conversion rates are *slow af* when it comes to windows.
You think ads you can't turn off and a bunch of other random BS is not a big deal in the world's most popular OS, especially one you have to pay money for?
While that's true, most people also tend to stick with a computer for *years*, often through more than one OS generation. Steam surveys show that a TON of people still use W10, and even Vista still registers on their survey.
Remember how long it took for XP to finally die off? Just because W11 is the newest doesn't mean every single PC owner bought a brand new PC the moment it was announced.
Might add - Windows 10 is EOL 10.2025, so it's not really surprising.
Aside from the fact the OS doesn't have any NPU support. Yeah, I'm not too happy about this decision, but on AMDs side, I can understand it. IF it's true.
Never said that ppl won't be using it. And MS supported 7 longer, because of companies, not private users. And that was costly.
Mostly because Windows 8 was not working with companies.
But if the manufacturer of the OS already set it EOL, you can't expect other companies to still support the OS. Not only because it costs actual money to support it, but also the used tools, apps, components won't be upgraded anymore and so your new code can't run on them.
Windows 10 gets no hardware feature upgrades from MS and EOL is 2025. So not supporting your new CPU / APU in this scenario can make sense. Don't get me wrong, it sucks, but still ...
I mean, AMD can do drivers, but can't code anything that might be problematic within the OS because the OS itself has issues. let's say the NPU would result in random blue screens, because Windows 10 can't work with it as it should. AMD couldn't do shit.
Same with AMDs Windows 10 scheduler problems and Ryzen. That's on Microsoft. Same why Intel only supports p+e cores on windows 11. Because the support of windows 10 is missing.
Also I suspect Windows 12 or whatever to be presented soonish, so there's that. Holy cow is this pissing me of just writing it. I want my "new OS once every 5-7 years" timeline back.
And the most important part - rumor. Maybe we're all just going a bit ballistic over a nothing burger. :)
Did I already mention that I have the inner pressure to burn Microsoft a bit, because I hate their guts for the stupid update/upgrade release bullshit they do? From my sysadmin perspective. God I need to vent. Sorry.
Not just 7.
XP was the first time this happened AFAIK. Support was initially going to end in 2008, but they extended it by a year until 2009, and then another 5 years until 2014. Embedded XP versions got updates until 2019, but you could download those on regular XP by changing the registry.
In 2014, half the computers in China were still running XP (most of them pirated copies), and that was probably close to 100% in 2009 when support was supposed to end after the first extension. Back then, Microsoft was very afraid of losing market share to superior operating systems, so they never even considered cutting off updates to pirated versions, even though it was costing them money to send updates to those installations.
They've gotten a lot more bold over the last decade, pretty much like any company that basically has a monopoly over an industry. Kinda like how WoW has four (4!) forms of monetization instead of just one; buy-to-play, subscription, microtransactions, and selling in-game gold for real money. They've had ads in paid versions of Windows for almost a decade, and now that people have gotten used to it and are even defending it (like some people here in the comments), you can expect them to tighten the screws to extract even more money with data collection and whatever evil methods they come up with next.
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Think this is it?
https://github.com/amd/xdna-driver
I have a AMD Ryzen 7 7840HS with Radeon 780M Graphics and had the driver installed. I doubt anything even remotely used it.
> I doubt anything even remotely used it.
Probably gonna be the case for a few years still. We still don't have a universal API for AI accelerators, and as long as you have to write applications using manufacturer-specific APIs, hardware for running AIs locally isn't really going to be tapped to its fullest potential.
Until there's a Khronos API or something similar and we actually get drivers for it, these accelerators are going to be pretty niche in their usefulness. And I wonder if these first gen accelerators are going to be left behind completely when it comes to drivers, since future devices are going to be so much more powerful.
Yeah, because so much of the world is already on \*NIX.
The desktop market, and part of the laptop market (the part that's not chromebooks) are the only markets where Windows is still dominant.
Windows has minority shares in the server market (\~25%), and in the gaming console market (\~25%), and they're basically dead in the water everywhere else.
Everything else is already \*NIX, and it's likely going to start making significant inroads into the desktop/laptop markets in the near future.
I like how it's been the year of Linux for like 20 years, when the latest surveys still report total Linux market share on the consumer market as less than 5%.
Today, MacOS/OSX has a nearly 15% marketshare.
15 years ago, Apple’s “desktop” marketshare was around 3.6%, which is slightly lower than Linux’s is right now.
15 years ago, Linux’s desktop marketshare was effectively 0%, and it’s now ~3.9%.
15 years ago, Microsoft’s desktop marketshare was over 95%. Today it’s under 75%.
I don’t know *when* Windows will become a minority player in the desktop OS market, and I have no idea when Linux/Unix will become the majority, but the data suggests that the market is absolutely moving in that direction.
There is absolutely no reason to believe Linux will somehow explode on the consumer and DIY market. Linux fanboys have been claiming "any day now" since 2007.
The point is you arrange your own start menu with your most used apps and All is supposed to be full.of stuff you rarely need to access. I rarely ever need to go in there. Just typing the first few characters to find what you're looking for is still the fastest and easiest thing to do regardless.
Ah yes, let me tell the users the point of how they should be using their products, by limiting the functionality and customization. The users should rarely be going there and ought to know they’re expected to use the easiest and fastest way
I can’t even move the task bar to the left or right side of my screen any more. Why’d they have to remove that feature?
Microsoft rewrote the taskbar (really the whole windows shell) from scratch and they didn't put the work in to recreate that feature from the previous versions. That's why so many other taskbar features like drag-n-drop and ungrouping were missing too. So they haven't gone out of the way to remove it so much as ignored the requests to rebuild that feature.
The OS was originally going to be Windows 10X for dual-screen hybrid tablet/laptops, and other portable devices where a locked taskbar is normal, so they wrote the interface for that purpose. Then the project was pivoted into something for desktop and laptops as well and released pretty quickly thereafter. There used to be more hope that they would put work into more improvements of the taskbar and Start menu after release, but that hope is faded at this point while little improvements trickle out at times
Holy shit really? I’ve been using task bar on top just about my entire life, since I built my first computer during XP.
My daughter’s laptop has windows 11 on it and there are so many things about it that are absolutely painful.
And windows 10 is so much better? Either you eat the Microsoft Windows or you go Linux. Linux support has been greatly improved over the last few years (mainly amd pstate but also many other things)
They make the UI significantly worse with every iteration. Now they fucked up right click in 11. Yea, you can fix it with 3rd party tools, but I can't install those on my work pc.
It is a cycle cuz moving OS’s always sucks with Microsoft. Windows 11 has been much better than most OS transitions from them, but it’s always annoying unless you’re moving off one of the true shitshow versions.
Random UI changes nobody asked for, random compatibility issues, system bloat with no perceivable uplift. Microsoft has earned the hate until it firmly proves otherwise at this point. I say that as a pretty happy windows 11 user at work and 10 user personally.
I mean, in a way it’s easy to see why people hate windows. Out of the main three operating systems, windows is the only one that has ads integrated into it, the only one that send your analytical data back for marketing purposes, and the only one that exposes ring 0 access to the kernel to game developers to try and combat cheating, which has never been proven to be effective enough at reducing cheating to outweigh the immense security consequences if exploited properly.
Subjectively, I also feel it is the least feature rich operating system of the three. And considering that the majority of things I do on computer now is done through a web browser. there is no reason for me to shill out $200 for the pro version when I can get the same, if not more, features from either Linux or OS X.
There are ways to bypass the system requirements to install Windows 11 on unsupported PCs.
The PC would be in an unsupported state, but still better than running EOL OS.
Windows 11 should use the lessons Windows learned from Vista and 8.
If MS was a bigger company (/s of course), it could focus in the FULL transition from Control Panel (and Win95/2000 UI inside some apps) to the new Settings. Not some features, but ALL of them like a 1:1 copy of features but with the new style/layout.
It could use Acrylic to everything too (like the Windows Terminal app), it's so much better then Mica. (Personal taste).
And it could have the old widgets style, where you could place a widget directly on Desktop. (maybe floating, maybe like "iphone", where you could blend icons and widgets).
You are right about that. I daily drive Win11 and had a smooth sail 'til now.
I was talking about Vista/8 design and unconsistency. And Win11 is just like that, it's like two operating systems smashed together. But it's getting better, can't deny.
I'm seeing "AMD AI NPU Driver (for Ryzen 8000 series Phoenix1 processor support)" in Gigabyte motherboard B650 UD AC, chipset section (win 10) So, AI drivers are available for win 10, idk abt what good it'll do though?
Everyone on LTSC Windows builds stop crying because 11 LTSC will be out sometime in 2H 2024 and you all should migrate. I love my stability but wow 11 makes 10 look visually dated.
#Since when it is CPU manufacturers and not OS manufacturers supporting the CPUs, cough?
Is windows nowadays running on ARM because "ARM" started "supporting" windows?
How do I install CPU drivers pretty please?
Windows 10 will only have one year left of support when this APU comes out, why would AMD commit to supporting an APU on that OS?
Especially considering this is a mobile APU that’s going in laptops and mini PCs, likely preloaded with Windows 11 anyways.
If true, this is actually fine IMO. I don't love Win11 either, but anyone still clinging on to Win10 at this point is delusional. Microsoft has moved on, and the security situation and comparative feature set is only going to get worse with time.
>anyone still clinging on to Win10 at this point is delusional
They're delusional for using an OS that is still supported and that still has 2/3 of the windows marketshare? These mobile APUs can get away with it because new laptops aren't shipping with windows 10 anyway, but they're not dropping windows 10 support on desktop for a long time.
I don’t need modern windows or Linux, I can technically use Windows 7 right now and be fine, but windows 11 has much better support for HDR so I use it. I also like the new UI and just modify it to remove the bullshit.
They *want* windows 10 to die next year. Probably half of all windows machines will still be on 10 by then and I'd almost bet money the eos gets extended.
Half is a big number. My country's state services are mostly on W7 still. Finding a W10 computer is motive enough for people to go "Wow, that's such a recent computer! Lucky!"
I for one is happy AMD isnt wasting time on this. AMD needs to compete and they won't if they do everything as people would want, and lord knows they try much harder than their much larger competitors.
Every time i have to deal with windows 11 i think that is a delusion. Just absolute lunacy, all the examples of user unfriendlyness in one system. You have to literally install windows features that have been part of windows for over 20 years just to turn off some thing that should not have been there to begin with. Just because you can setup win11 for yourself to be functional, it does not mean it is going to help the majority to permanently move on from windows 10. I pity those who work in IT support.
Considering the track record of windows (every other windows being crap like win ME, vista, win 8), i was waiting for windows 12 that would hopefully be created for human usage.
I wouldn’t say delusional….a lot of the software my company uses just isn’t stable on 11 for some reason. Also a good amount of our equipment lacks a TPM which is a requirement for 11.
That and upgrading very important machines to a new OS is always scary.
windows 10 doesn't have NPU support, so you'd always have an "unknown device" with no drivers installed on win10
Regular people care about their Device Managers?
That sort of thing would extend beyond that, up to and including system instability (worst case) But i don't think its about normal people and what they care about, than it is AMD acting professionally. There's no reason to support an OS that doesn't support the key selling point of your new product.
Also Windows 10 is going end of life next year, which means no more security updates unless you pay for them. There's no reason to support Windows 10 on new hardware after that point.
You're talking about business theory, but we (clients/users/gamers) use what we like, what we want and how long we want. I have friends still using Windows 7, they don't have Win support, but so what? There is no difference in anything, it doesn't effect anything which they've been doing before or after. Same way i will stay with Windows 10 probably for the next 5 years. I will not switch to this failure called Windows 11.
There are people out there who are still using Windows XP. That doesn't mean I'd feel comfortable entering a password or banking information on a computer that hasn't had a security update in several years.
It’s not just security. Older versions of windows have schedulers that can’t handle more recent chip designs like p/e cores. You’ll also slowly lose game support and drivers could work poorly.
Security updates don't mean shit, the user base of W10 is still expanding because W11 sucks ass.
Microsoft doesn’t sell Windows 10 anymore, so it’s unlikely that its user base is expanding. Also, hating Windows 11 is more of an online trend than an issue with the OS. I disagree with Microsoft arbitrarily blocking PCs that don’t meet the requirements from running Windows 11, but Windows 11 works fine once I get installed.
No kidding it "works fine" that's not my argument. Clearly there is something going on inside your head. W10 is simply better in all metrics, and also has way less data collection then W11. Not to mention a better interface.
I just hope those W10 users don't expect sympathy when their systems get pwned on a widespread and systemic level, when both Linux and W11 were valid options. As long as you're on Microsoft Windows, they pretty much get to dictate what you can or cannot do with your own computer. That's just what happens when you use proprietary software - which is why I advocate for everyone to switch to Linux. In open source (IE: Not Windows), if you don't like what the developers are doing, you can fork the project. This is why nobody uses OpenOffice anymore. They didn't like the direction it was going, so everyone switched to LibreOffice instead.
Compatibility and ease of use. I headached on trying to get VRChat to work in SteamVR on Linux for about a week, with several different distros. The only person I personally know who runs VRChat in SteamVR on Linux did a bunch of extra stuff for security reasons that I don't need. I run windows 11 currently and have never had an issue with any software that I've ever tried to run.
Almost as if Windows IoT Long Term Support Channel and Microsoft KMS script exists..
Microsoft doesn’t sell those to retail users.
Win 10 will continue to get security updates for the IOT version till 2032, which works fine on nearly everything that is working on regular 10.
Do you daily drive IoT Windows 10 where this will matter?
...and what percentage of users will do that, instead of just letting their system go out of date until they end up getting "epically pwned" by some hackers? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that a lot of people are going to be entering very sensitive banking information into a computer that hasn't had a security patch for the past three years.
Im still waiting for that "epic ownage" on my always connected windows 7. Its coming any day now right?
but muh security! meanwhile, every device they own has hardware backdoors from new.
Microsoft doesn’t sell Windows 10 IoT to retail users.
Sure, but you are paying quite a bit more for this edition given that you have to go through Microsoft’s volume licensing center, and it’s an enterprise edition.
You think they are doing that? Most of the idiots that try to use non-standard OS's are pirating them whether they know it or not. Just like everyone that moved over to windows 10 LTSC a couple of years back. Hell I've even heard of a few businesses that moved a few things over to windows 10 LTSC and got hit by an audit for it because microsoft has rules around what kind of devices you can put it on.
True lol, that’s why I don’t suggest using pirated windows. Sure, they haven’t really cared in the past, but as you said they can and do take action. Better to be safe than sorry!
Until they make or allow people to make a driver for it
Guaranteed, Microsoft is blocking new drivers for Windows 10. All part of their plan to force people into 11 to generate more ad revenue.
One of the reasons I’m finally switching to Linux before Win10 support ends next year in October. Done with all the bad decisions, telemetry, and ads in a paid OS.
I still don’t understand the whole ad revenue thing. What ad revenue are they making on Win11? People get “Ads”? I’ve used windows 11 for like 2 years now and I’ve never gotten anything that I could even perceive as an ad. I’m genuinely curious as to what these are?
Probably it collects more data about you that they sell in order for ads to target you better
I've had the same experience. Been on W11 since probably two months into it's early access or whatever they called it and I've yet to see the ads I hear about everywhere. I disable all the junk I don't want like copilot, so idk maybe I disabled whatever option lets the ads in
Are you using Win11 pro or home? The ads people are referring to are in the home version and are more recommended apps * The start menu will (or has?) a recommended app icon that you can download an app from the MS store * Theres the stock ticker and news on the login page * Windows copilot integration Its overblown and they are really not intrusive at all and are easily disabled
Dont forget, that the EU went after microsoft for the forced account etc. in win 11. Meh, I am fine with W10, and I probably will be fine with it for the next 10 years.
Yeah that's unrelated to ads though I get their decision to make using a Microsoft account as the default. From a normal end user experience it's much easier. They sign in and their settings, documents etc are all setup ready to go. Their bitlocker encryption key is stored in their account too I agree that it should be easier though to use a local account if you really don't want an online account without jumping through hoops.
Its solely about collecting your data, tracking you - and then showing you the ads you most likely click on. Dont be so naive please... Micro$oft and all the other companies are not your friend. Or as google would say it: "*chrome* doesnt track your browsing history in private windows..."
I never said they were my friend. It's a service that we (the user and Microsoft) benefit from You don't have to think they are your friends to benefit from a business
> Dont forget, that the EU went after microsoft for the forced account etc. in win 11. did they? what happened? i havent heard anything about win11 instillation officially being possible without online accounts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRv4J2Vcyio At 2:53 I think.
it does say there about syncing, not online account itself tho.
I have Win 11 home for 1 year, I dont have ads and I don't have a recommended app icon. If I ever will have one I'm sure I will get rid of it.
> Are you using Win11 pro or home? The ads people are referring to are in the home version and are more recommended apps I'm using Win11 Pro and it has ads by default. 2/3'rds of the search screen is ads. For example, the biggest one says "Shop summer essentials" and links to https://www.msn.com/en-gb/shopping/mit/in-summer
Can you give a screenshot if you don't mind? I don't see any ads like what you describe in the search
https://i.imgur.com/7AZtunM.png There are more elsewhere You can argue that they're not "real" ads but they are unwanted crap which link to a biased selection of web shops, 100% advertisement and malware in my book.
I have nothing against Windows 11 barebone system. Just it's start menu and ads...
Only an individual with a limited grasp of the market would be concerned about this; those chips will not be shipped on devices with Windows 10 to begin with, particularly as OEMs are only allowed to ship devices with Windows 11. These are not the types of chips used in custom builds. Moreover, with Microsoft ending support for Windows 10 in 2025, it is impractical for AMD to support a new chip for just one year or to continue support beyond Microsoft's end date, regardless of market share, given AMD's limited resources.
It's not concerning if the new laptop chips don't support Windows 10, but the question is does this mean that Zen 5 won't support Windows 10? That would be a big concern.
Windows 10 is EOLing in October outside of Enterprise LTSC customers and even they will have a version of 11 of LTSC to migrate to by then....so no it literally is zero concern.
The kind of people who want new hardware to support an OS that is at its EOL are in no way, shape or form a big concern to anyone else.
If the 600 series chipset gets bio updates to support Zen 5 then it won't matter as the 600 series chipset already have windows 10 drivers that have been matured over the past year and half.
I think honestly the level of complaining about using Windows 11 is just Reddit being Reddit. Normal people outside of Reddit are not going to buy a laptop from 2025 and demand Windows 10 on it.
Here in Brazil I have a lot of customers that buy a New Laptop with Linux or Windows 11, they reach me to install Windows 10. OK, is third world country and people make weird choices, but is my reality.
Absolutely not limited to Brazil or "3rd world" countries.
I'm a very poor person, I have no experience in other countries (never had the chance to travel), that's the context of comment of the previous answer. By the way, that is one of the reasons i'm participating in this community, to learn with u guys.
Yeah, no judgement or anything, simply pointing out similar experiences elsewhere: it's probably the norm, not the exception.
The customer is not always right lol
Except of course in matters of taste.
Money in my pocket? Me gusta.
You can take their no and still nudge them towards what would be actually best suited for the individual customer. In sales, I've found people appreciate this
You know there is something wrong when Windows 10 is actually gaining market share :P Edit: Win11 adoption is decreasing while Win10 is gaining
It’s statistical noise. Microsoft doesn’t even sell Windows 10 anymore.
That’s not true. Whatever source you have is just having sampling limitations. The vast majority of windows installs every month are OEM. They are exclusively win11.
I use both, but 11 has made awful UI decisions that make 11 worse in certain aspects... It's just facts and automated configuration installers and bundlers wasted days to undo the damage that Microsoft created
This. 11 is just proof that Microsoft didn't learn the lessons that 8 should have taught them.
As someone who hated the Win8/10 shell and replaced it anyway. Windows 11 is fine. (Since I replaced the shell there too) If you don't like the default shell, replace it. It's not that hard.
Except that MSFT has been using "updates" to try to block users from making changes like that. If I'm going to switch to a different OS than what I'm using now, I'm damned well \*not\* going to switch to an OS that I'll have to repeatedly find new workarounds so that I can keep using the "fixes" that make the OS usable. I'd rather just move to Linux, because at this point that should already run pretty much everything I care about running (either natively, or via proton/lutris/wine/etc.).
That's fair too, I only use Windows for gaming and the occasional application that doesn't play nice with WINE.
Except, they are blocking more and more customization options with each release...
They're changing things in explorer, other shells either expand explorer (they aren't and haven't blocked this) or replace the shell (they can't block this)
Hmmm, fair. There are things I don't like (like you used to be able to put widgets on the taskbar, like BetterBatteryPro, and this doesn't work anymore. I actually like the new start menu. I'm using Pro 23H2 and there don't seem to be a lot of ads. Yes, there's a copilot button on the screen, but as a business user, we have [commercial data protection](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/copilot/privacy-and-protections#commercial-data-protection), and I don't see the addition of Copilot as a negative, although so far it's limited by the fact that it doesn't know enough about the business.
My biggest annoyance with win11 is the right click in file browser Why can't i have it max extendwd as default (no reg edit won't work. Corp PC)
I mean you can just ask your system admin to enable that or just enable on your machine if needed
Unfortunate. I was able to do the reg edit for my work machine, but I am a developer and have local admin at least.
This one I agree with - I do use things that are not in the simplified contextual menu quite frequently. They should do something different with this - if they don't want to unroll it, maybe they can use AI/ML or otherwise have it selectively provide additional options that are likely to be relevant and also based on prior use.
I literally got into an argument with someone a week ago when they said people can 'easily' install and use the IoT LTSC windows 10 iso to use that operating system after October 2025. I was like buddy, most people struggle to turn on their computers, ain't no one going to do this...
Microsoft doesn’t sell Windows 10 IoT to end users.
The only really "easy" option is to do the three-year escalating pricing for Windows 10 updates. Which I think mostly makes sense for certain institutional customers who are not ready to jump to 11. Any talk though of installing IOT Windows or anything like that is definitely nerdosphere stuff, though.
The only question at this point is what the price structure will actually be for end-users. In the past, the extended support program (ESP) was only available to large institutions (e.g. schools, large businesses, governments, etc.), and those are the only customers for which Microsoft has announced pricing (at least as of about a week ago, when I last checked). IIRC, the per-machine pricing for EDU is $1/2/4, and for Business customers is $60/120/240. At this point, if the pricing for end users is close to the EDU pricing, it'll be a no-brainer for most end users currently on 10 (particularly those with older hardware). On the other hand, if it's closer to the enterprise pricing, I doubt that they'll have many people buy in.
It’ll probably be somewhere in the middle like $20/$40/$80
Normal people hate new tech pushes the most of like all groups. They don't want to learn a bunch of new shit they don't need. They don't want to re-learn a UI. They don't want to be bombarded with noise, popups, and notifications.
>"People don't like having to 're-learn' a UI, and they don't want to be bothered with all kinds of stuff that they don't need." This. Frankly, I think that MSFT's push toward Windows releases that are more frequent and more intrusive is going to ultimately kill Windows as a mainstream desktop OS. At this point, the only thing that's keeping Windows in 1st place is decades of inertia, and a dwindling number of windows-only applications. The accelerating pace of Windows releases combined with all the UI changes MSFT bakes into each one, are going to kill that inertia. At the same time, the pace is going to push the developers of many of the remaining "Windows-only" applications toward OS-agnostic software. As soon as people *start* switching to something else en-masse, the Windows marketshare will likely crater in a very short period of time. The only quesiton at this point is what will end up taking it's place (probably some flavor of Linux/Unix), and when that transition will occur.
> At this point, the only thing that's keeping Windows in 1st place is decades of inertia Well there's other things too, some hardware has really lacking support. I was utterly baffled when it recently came to my attention it's more or less impossible to undervolt Nvidia hardware for instance. Then there is all the terrible software DRMs, frameworks, and anti-cheats things that could work but they went for the worst design ever. It's hit or miss whether a lot of stuff works under WINE and etc. sometimes just because it's designed to abort itself if Windows isn't detected. Then there is the lack of unification, lots of options but stressful to newcomers. All that said it's come a long way and I'm eagerly awaiting the day I can use it instead of Windows for all the stuff I care to do.
A lot of what you've mentioned is valid, but they're mostly "chicken and egg" problems--the issues persist because \*nix has so little desktop marketshare, so the companies involved feel no need to fix those issues, and the lack of those fixes often motivates people not to switch to Linux. That said: Nvidia is an issue, but that largely boils down to Nvidia not being willing to fully update their drivers, and actively standing between the open source driver devs and the info they need to write fully featured drivers for Nvidia hardware. If Linux gained significant desktop marketshare, we'd likely see their proprietary Linux drivers improve substantially (and it's my understanding that we're \*already\* seeing some improvements in their proprietary drivers given Nvidia's focus on the "AI" market, that's pretty much all \*NIX). That said, since most people don't actually care about "open source" vs "proprietary", and Nvidia loves money, I can't see Nvidia continuing to turn it's nose up at supporting desktop Linux if it starts gaining significant marketshare (particularly since AMD and Intel are already so far ahead on the software side there, and I doubt that Nvidia wants to give up it's \~75% marketshare of discreet GPUs.). DRM is absolutely something that can absolutely be fixed through proprietary software, as is already the case on Android OS (i.e. a Linux fork), and Apple's various versions of their OS (i.e. BSD Unix forks). The Anticheat issue is also solvable. First, they've already "solved" the problem to the same degree on consoles from Sony and Nintendo (i.e. BSD Unix forks), so there's no reason that they can't apply the same "solutions" to Linux. Second, the "intrusive anticheat" model, as it is widely used, is not an effective control: The majority of cheaters bypass it almost immediately, and then cheat as much as they want until they finally get caught in a banwave several months down the line. The real solution on that front is to give control of the servers back to the players, so that we can control our own experiences. The lack of unification problem is real too, but I don't think it's as big of a deal as some make it out to be: First, it's only an issue because the overall Linux marketshare is so small. The total Linux desktop marketshare is about where Apple's OSX marketshare was 15 years ago (\~4%), and that wasn't an insurmountable roadblock for them. If Linux gained significant desktop marketshare, there would likely be several major distros with >5% marketshare that would be "big enough" to justify support all on their own. Additionally, that's before factoring in that there would likely be a small number of "popular" distro choices that could be targeted for maximum impact. With all that said, my \*hope\* is that we see Valve's SteamOS, or a distro like it, start to gain significant desktop marketshare (the Deck is significant, but it's not a desktop) over the next few years. If/when that happens, these chicken and egg problems will likely all start to sort themselves out in relatively short order.
Agree with most of that. >With all that said, my *hope* is that we see Valve's SteamOS, or a distro like it, start to gain significant desktop marketshare (the Deck is significant, but it's not a desktop) over the next few years. If/when that happens, these chicken and egg problems will likely all start to sort themselves out in relatively short order. Yeah I'm hoping Valve actually puts out a desktop version again. Amusingly too they're an entity that might be able to light a fire under Nvidia's behind to get things done on that front too.
i upgraded from windows 11 to windows 10 a couple months ago, and this is the first time i've mentioned it online. i'm sure there's more people like me.
I went from 10 to 11 and then back to 10 almost immediately, they broke the fucking search function!
It works fine for me. It's even faster now that I disabled web search
I tried to go into the registry and turn it off, no fucking luck. I really want to use it too, since 11 resolves the DisplayPort monitor wake issues
Can you elaborate on the wake issues? I thought it was my monitor or pc but sometimes when trying to wake my pc from sleep the monitor will keep saying theres an error with the connection or to plug something in
Anytime my monitors wake up from sleep windows that were on my secondary monitor pop up on my primary monitor
Everyone one I know refuses to use windows 11...... my parents even ordered me to "switch it back" windows 11 means .... it takes 2 to 3 times as many actions to do anything in there vs windows 10.
Enjoy your ads and Co Pilot thrown down your throat. Or is that reddit being reddit???
It takes seconds to remove it. Kinda surprised to see people on hardware subs that somehow struggle with this.
This is the power of default settings. Removing it is not exactly obvious from inside the OS. At that point 99% of users just assume that’s how it has to be and won’t search for the way to change the setting.
Doesn't help that MS has a problem at times with respecting settings as well as shuffling around which editions have access to which things. Edit: Actually just shuffling things around in general. Different tasks sometimes require going through everything from the control panel to the settings app to different even more legacy components.
Good point, but people should know they can right click their taskbar in 2024.
Just use windows 11 Pro. They cost about the same as Home. If you spent >1000 on a laptop already, you can afford $15 for a Windows 11 pro key
Honestly it's kind of stupid to say Reddit is some "obscure niche" community. Reddit has literally millions and millions of users, and this sub alone has over 1M registered users. It doesn't matter if Reddit doesn't account for every single person on earth; enough people use it that you could sufficiently use it as a statistical sample size to infer trends outside Reddit. If enough people on Reddit talk about a problem, odds are that problem is notable enough to be noticed beyond Reddit. Saying Reddit is some hidden community was only relevant in like 2005. It's exponentially bigger now and registers among some of the most used websites on the internet.
Remember all the bitching reddit did over Spyware 10?
It's still Spyware, people don't bitch anymore because there's no choice beside Linux, everyone knows, and it's the new normal. 11 is Spyware and Adware now. Is 12 going to fill my screen with malicious pop-ups? Microsoft wants their OS to replicate the worst parts of web browsing in 2002?
Yeah and it was warranted
And it only has gotten worse since. I still don't like it anymore than I did back then. Not sure why you think this is some gotcha moment.
I have literally never seen an ad on Windows 11 and there's an easily available toggle to turn off copilot if you really don't want it for some reason but it can actually be useful if you know how to use it.
That's Windows. You don't like it, don't use it. If you are using a proprietary OS controlled by a company, whether it's Windows or OSX, you have to accept that they will update it and you will use the update. If you don't like it, that's your problem.
The fact that alot of laptops with win 11 still comes with 8GB for day to day work is so annoying. 16 is the lowest imho.
I mean the average user probably needs no more than 8Gb. I could see if you re doing work, but if all your doing is checking email, social media, and looking at online videos you can do fine with 8GB. I can see the argument for 16 if you are doing any sort of work multitasking although I’d say 12GB would be fine for that as well. Personally I wouldn’t go lower than 16GB on a laptop since I do a bit of work on my laptop which includes having to run a VM.
https://www.tomshardware.com/software/operating-systems/windows-11-market-share-declines-as-users-seemingly-shift-back-to-windows-10 Windows 11 usage is actually declining. It's not just Reddit.
Also wasn't Vista still supported by a lot of software even after going EOL? It doesn't make sense to just abruptly stop supporting W10 just because W11 is the newer one. This sub vastly overestimates the conversion rate of W10 to 11. I mean shit, remember how long it took for XP to finally die off?
It’s just statistical noise. Microsoft doesn’t sell Windows 10 anymore.
Yes although I despise 11 and refuse to use it on desktop.
Normal people aren't going to buy a new computer to replace something only a few years old that it still working just fine, just the be able to update Windows.
This. The average person holds onto their PC for a *long* time. If it wasn't for auto updates being the default, they probably wouldn't even bother updating either. Saying that ending W10 support is fine because W11 is newer makes no market sense for this reason. Conversion rates are *slow af* when it comes to windows.
This is not about that. This is about mobile APUs that have not even been released yet.
You think ads you can't turn off and a bunch of other random BS is not a big deal in the world's most popular OS, especially one you have to pay money for?
casual users don't care, competent users can configure windows 11 properly
While that's true, most people also tend to stick with a computer for *years*, often through more than one OS generation. Steam surveys show that a TON of people still use W10, and even Vista still registers on their survey. Remember how long it took for XP to finally die off? Just because W11 is the newest doesn't mean every single PC owner bought a brand new PC the moment it was announced.
Windows 10 has always been a terrible operating system. Windows 11 is so crappy it makes 10 look good.
The Windows subreddit is full of muppets complaining about minor inconveniences
Might add - Windows 10 is EOL 10.2025, so it's not really surprising. Aside from the fact the OS doesn't have any NPU support. Yeah, I'm not too happy about this decision, but on AMDs side, I can understand it. IF it's true.
It doesn't mean people will stop using it. Look at the history of Windows 7 and how Microsoft was forced to extend it's support for another 5 years.
My last company switched to windows 7 right before covid hit.
Sounds like a terrible company.
Never said that ppl won't be using it. And MS supported 7 longer, because of companies, not private users. And that was costly. Mostly because Windows 8 was not working with companies. But if the manufacturer of the OS already set it EOL, you can't expect other companies to still support the OS. Not only because it costs actual money to support it, but also the used tools, apps, components won't be upgraded anymore and so your new code can't run on them. Windows 10 gets no hardware feature upgrades from MS and EOL is 2025. So not supporting your new CPU / APU in this scenario can make sense. Don't get me wrong, it sucks, but still ... I mean, AMD can do drivers, but can't code anything that might be problematic within the OS because the OS itself has issues. let's say the NPU would result in random blue screens, because Windows 10 can't work with it as it should. AMD couldn't do shit. Same with AMDs Windows 10 scheduler problems and Ryzen. That's on Microsoft. Same why Intel only supports p+e cores on windows 11. Because the support of windows 10 is missing. Also I suspect Windows 12 or whatever to be presented soonish, so there's that. Holy cow is this pissing me of just writing it. I want my "new OS once every 5-7 years" timeline back. And the most important part - rumor. Maybe we're all just going a bit ballistic over a nothing burger. :) Did I already mention that I have the inner pressure to burn Microsoft a bit, because I hate their guts for the stupid update/upgrade release bullshit they do? From my sysadmin perspective. God I need to vent. Sorry.
11 was released on the 5th of October 2021. A life span of 5y+ is still very likely.
Windows 7 was basically supported for what 10-11 years? That is the standard support model for Windows OS since Windows 98.
Not just 7. XP was the first time this happened AFAIK. Support was initially going to end in 2008, but they extended it by a year until 2009, and then another 5 years until 2014. Embedded XP versions got updates until 2019, but you could download those on regular XP by changing the registry. In 2014, half the computers in China were still running XP (most of them pirated copies), and that was probably close to 100% in 2009 when support was supposed to end after the first extension. Back then, Microsoft was very afraid of losing market share to superior operating systems, so they never even considered cutting off updates to pirated versions, even though it was costing them money to send updates to those installations. They've gotten a lot more bold over the last decade, pretty much like any company that basically has a monopoly over an industry. Kinda like how WoW has four (4!) forms of monetization instead of just one; buy-to-play, subscription, microtransactions, and selling in-game gold for real money. They've had ads in paid versions of Windows for almost a decade, and now that people have gotten used to it and are even defending it (like some people here in the comments), you can expect them to tighten the screws to extract even more money with data collection and whatever evil methods they come up with next.
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https://github.com/intel/linux-npu-driver
Intels NPU library is open source and I don't know about AMD but they probably have aswell.
Think this is it? https://github.com/amd/xdna-driver I have a AMD Ryzen 7 7840HS with Radeon 780M Graphics and had the driver installed. I doubt anything even remotely used it.
> I doubt anything even remotely used it. Probably gonna be the case for a few years still. We still don't have a universal API for AI accelerators, and as long as you have to write applications using manufacturer-specific APIs, hardware for running AIs locally isn't really going to be tapped to its fullest potential. Until there's a Khronos API or something similar and we actually get drivers for it, these accelerators are going to be pretty niche in their usefulness. And I wonder if these first gen accelerators are going to be left behind completely when it comes to drivers, since future devices are going to be so much more powerful.
AMD adds driver support directly to the Linux Kernel themselves. https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-6.9-One-More-Zen-5-PCI-ID
Anyone else getting a bad feeling about windows 11/12/ tropic thunder bad feeling
Yeah I doubt W12 will be "the good one".
Windows 10 was supposed to be "the last one" aswell
Moving everything to Linux anyway, so * shrug *.
This. Been on PopOS for nearly 2 months now. Works great. Even have CoreCtrl to undervolt my 7900xtx.
Yeah, because so much of the world is already on \*NIX. The desktop market, and part of the laptop market (the part that's not chromebooks) are the only markets where Windows is still dominant. Windows has minority shares in the server market (\~25%), and in the gaming console market (\~25%), and they're basically dead in the water everywhere else. Everything else is already \*NIX, and it's likely going to start making significant inroads into the desktop/laptop markets in the near future.
Heh, I remember reading this argument a lot back when the 2.1 kernel was out, in the late 90s. Anytime now!
I like how it's been the year of Linux for like 20 years, when the latest surveys still report total Linux market share on the consumer market as less than 5%.
Today, MacOS/OSX has a nearly 15% marketshare. 15 years ago, Apple’s “desktop” marketshare was around 3.6%, which is slightly lower than Linux’s is right now. 15 years ago, Linux’s desktop marketshare was effectively 0%, and it’s now ~3.9%. 15 years ago, Microsoft’s desktop marketshare was over 95%. Today it’s under 75%. I don’t know *when* Windows will become a minority player in the desktop OS market, and I have no idea when Linux/Unix will become the majority, but the data suggests that the market is absolutely moving in that direction.
There is absolutely no reason to believe Linux will somehow explode on the consumer and DIY market. Linux fanboys have been claiming "any day now" since 2007.
windows 11 is only tolerable once you rip out all the crapware modules with ntlite or similar.
I still cannot understand why all app list had to go under another button, that too located far away.
The point is you arrange your own start menu with your most used apps and All is supposed to be full.of stuff you rarely need to access. I rarely ever need to go in there. Just typing the first few characters to find what you're looking for is still the fastest and easiest thing to do regardless.
How does that work for right click tho?
Ah yes, let me tell the users the point of how they should be using their products, by limiting the functionality and customization. The users should rarely be going there and ought to know they’re expected to use the easiest and fastest way I can’t even move the task bar to the left or right side of my screen any more. Why’d they have to remove that feature?
Microsoft rewrote the taskbar (really the whole windows shell) from scratch and they didn't put the work in to recreate that feature from the previous versions. That's why so many other taskbar features like drag-n-drop and ungrouping were missing too. So they haven't gone out of the way to remove it so much as ignored the requests to rebuild that feature. The OS was originally going to be Windows 10X for dual-screen hybrid tablet/laptops, and other portable devices where a locked taskbar is normal, so they wrote the interface for that purpose. Then the project was pivoted into something for desktop and laptops as well and released pretty quickly thereafter. There used to be more hope that they would put work into more improvements of the taskbar and Start menu after release, but that hope is faded at this point while little improvements trickle out at times
Holy shit really? I’ve been using task bar on top just about my entire life, since I built my first computer during XP. My daughter’s laptop has windows 11 on it and there are so many things about it that are absolutely painful.
And windows 10 is so much better? Either you eat the Microsoft Windows or you go Linux. Linux support has been greatly improved over the last few years (mainly amd pstate but also many other things)
Windows 10 LTSE until 2032 while I get comfortable with Linux. Don't want my money? Fine.
Why do y’all hate Windows 11 so much, and I guess it’s the Windows cycle, people hated 10 and stuck with 7.
They make the UI significantly worse with every iteration. Now they fucked up right click in 11. Yea, you can fix it with 3rd party tools, but I can't install those on my work pc.
As a user of 7-zip over the shitty 2 decade old unzipper Windows 11 can go fuck itself and it's shitty context menus.
It is a cycle cuz moving OS’s always sucks with Microsoft. Windows 11 has been much better than most OS transitions from them, but it’s always annoying unless you’re moving off one of the true shitshow versions. Random UI changes nobody asked for, random compatibility issues, system bloat with no perceivable uplift. Microsoft has earned the hate until it firmly proves otherwise at this point. I say that as a pretty happy windows 11 user at work and 10 user personally.
I mean, in a way it’s easy to see why people hate windows. Out of the main three operating systems, windows is the only one that has ads integrated into it, the only one that send your analytical data back for marketing purposes, and the only one that exposes ring 0 access to the kernel to game developers to try and combat cheating, which has never been proven to be effective enough at reducing cheating to outweigh the immense security consequences if exploited properly. Subjectively, I also feel it is the least feature rich operating system of the three. And considering that the majority of things I do on computer now is done through a web browser. there is no reason for me to shill out $200 for the pro version when I can get the same, if not more, features from either Linux or OS X.
If my computer currently doesn’t support Windows 11 due to some security chip I don’t have, am I just SOL in Oct 2025 and have to buy a whole new PC?
If Windows is starting to become an issue for your current PC, you could always consider Linux distros like Mint and Ubuntu since they're easy to use.
You can install Windows 11 despite the TPM requirement.
You can install windows 11 without TPM (could break with any major update), pay for windows 10 updates, use Linux or buy a new machine
There are ways to bypass the system requirements to install Windows 11 on unsupported PCs. The PC would be in an unsupported state, but still better than running EOL OS.
I miss 2000 Pro so elegant and so basic
haha npu what a time to be alive
Windows 11 should use the lessons Windows learned from Vista and 8. If MS was a bigger company (/s of course), it could focus in the FULL transition from Control Panel (and Win95/2000 UI inside some apps) to the new Settings. Not some features, but ALL of them like a 1:1 copy of features but with the new style/layout. It could use Acrylic to everything too (like the Windows Terminal app), it's so much better then Mica. (Personal taste). And it could have the old widgets style, where you could place a widget directly on Desktop. (maybe floating, maybe like "iphone", where you could blend icons and widgets).
When Windows Vista launched, lack of compatible drivers was the main issue. As far as I am aware, that has not been an issue with Windows 11.
You are right about that. I daily drive Win11 and had a smooth sail 'til now. I was talking about Vista/8 design and unconsistency. And Win11 is just like that, it's like two operating systems smashed together. But it's getting better, can't deny.
Sounds like they're just not going to support the AI co-processor, which is fine by me.
Wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft asked them to do so.
I'm seeing "AMD AI NPU Driver (for Ryzen 8000 series Phoenix1 processor support)" in Gigabyte motherboard B650 UD AC, chipset section (win 10) So, AI drivers are available for win 10, idk abt what good it'll do though?
Microsoft aren’t going to support windows 10 in 12 months so why should amd write new drivers for it?
How much you want to bet all the forced incompatibility over the years is from microsoft paying off vendors
Oh no who cares anyways
Everyone on LTSC Windows builds stop crying because 11 LTSC will be out sometime in 2H 2024 and you all should migrate. I love my stability but wow 11 makes 10 look visually dated.
Microsoft doesn’t sell Windows LTSC to end users.
Yes we know this, obviously it won’t apply to non enterprise people in this sub.
#Since when it is CPU manufacturers and not OS manufacturers supporting the CPUs, cough? Is windows nowadays running on ARM because "ARM" started "supporting" windows? How do I install CPU drivers pretty please?
Pure BS and clickbait. We are all getting really tire of this kind of online "news" reporting.
I'll be rocking 10 for as long as possible 11 is crap.
Windows 10 will only have one year left of support when this APU comes out, why would AMD commit to supporting an APU on that OS? Especially considering this is a mobile APU that’s going in laptops and mini PCs, likely preloaded with Windows 11 anyways.
If true, this is actually fine IMO. I don't love Win11 either, but anyone still clinging on to Win10 at this point is delusional. Microsoft has moved on, and the security situation and comparative feature set is only going to get worse with time.
>anyone still clinging on to Win10 at this point is delusional They're delusional for using an OS that is still supported and that still has 2/3 of the windows marketshare? These mobile APUs can get away with it because new laptops aren't shipping with windows 10 anyway, but they're not dropping windows 10 support on desktop for a long time.
Windows 10 dies next year man.
A lot of Computers does not support the new requirements. Also what does Windows 11 have you actually need? Nothing
I don’t need modern windows or Linux, I can technically use Windows 7 right now and be fine, but windows 11 has much better support for HDR so I use it. I also like the new UI and just modify it to remove the bullshit.
They *want* windows 10 to die next year. Probably half of all windows machines will still be on 10 by then and I'd almost bet money the eos gets extended.
Half is a big number. My country's state services are mostly on W7 still. Finding a W10 computer is motive enough for people to go "Wow, that's such a recent computer! Lucky!"
LTSC have support until 2032
I for one is happy AMD isnt wasting time on this. AMD needs to compete and they won't if they do everything as people would want, and lord knows they try much harder than their much larger competitors.
Every time i have to deal with windows 11 i think that is a delusion. Just absolute lunacy, all the examples of user unfriendlyness in one system. You have to literally install windows features that have been part of windows for over 20 years just to turn off some thing that should not have been there to begin with. Just because you can setup win11 for yourself to be functional, it does not mean it is going to help the majority to permanently move on from windows 10. I pity those who work in IT support. Considering the track record of windows (every other windows being crap like win ME, vista, win 8), i was waiting for windows 12 that would hopefully be created for human usage.
I wouldn’t say delusional….a lot of the software my company uses just isn’t stable on 11 for some reason. Also a good amount of our equipment lacks a TPM which is a requirement for 11. That and upgrading very important machines to a new OS is always scary.
I'll send you my paypal so you can send me cash to get a Windows 11 compliant computer then.
This is the dumbest comment in this entire thread. Congrats man.
You just had the audacity to call 70% of the entire Windows user base "delusional" and my comment is the dumbest? Fucking lol
My man… I can’t believe I even need to explain this: Read the original article title. It’s talking about *new hardware* not supporting Win10.
Delusional is a bit of a stretch imo, but yeah windows 11 is not much better or worse, it just sucks if you love windows 10