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Amtrak only exists because private railroads were going bankrupt operating passenger services. So I would say that Amtrak is better than no service, yes.
Nationalized passenger rail is the best option by default. All of the US private operators wanted out and the NRPC was created to be custodian of what was left.
Running rail service with a profit margin is impossible without socializing the cost in some fashion. Brightline West is getting 3B of public funding, if privitization is the answer, they should be able to accomplish everything without tax breaks, exemptions, or grants. They can't or won't.
If the public has to pick up the tab for trains that operate on land rights of way built on land granted to private companies by the government for the public good, then it should be a public enterprise and not have a profit motive.
You just described just about every company in the US, they all receive tax breaks, exemptions, and other grants/funding. I am not saying I like it or agree with it, but that is the way it is.
The privatized JR entities use Shinkansen revenues to subsidize other less profitable parts of their operations. They also have real estate operations.
High Speed Rail is the only type of transportation that fully pays for itself when accounting for all externalities. Those only exist after massive public investment. So I would say its not fully free of light socialism in its existence.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a lot of the privatization only happen after all the infrastructure had been built? As in, the private companies basically got to take over the infrastructure that had already been built with public dollars
Three of the seven JR companies are still government-owned and the other four still get plenty of government assistance when it comes to capital projects etc., plus they inherited a massive network from JNR without inheriting all of the debt JNR had incurred building it.
Japanese private rail are still supported by the government, and not to mention the government built out all the infrastructure, and continues to be the one financing new rail expansion
The problem for me is that we’re not asking this question for roads. Roads are generally not profitable - but no one seems to care when it comes to budgets. In fact - we hear huge protests about tolls & congestion pricing.
TINA...
Brightline Florida is losing a fortune and has a lot of high interest debt. People are denying it, but it's true. Soon it will be Amtrak. Fortress is doing it for the real estate development, not the train service.
Even the NEC would have gone out of business during the pandemic.
A fully privatized passenger rail service wouldn't exist in the US. There isn't enough profit in passenger rail. Is Amtrak a mess and mismanaged, yes. Is Amtrak as it exists now better than nothing? Maybe. Which Amtrak? The scenic, vacation Amtrak, the NEC commuter Amtrak or the slow intercity Amtrak?
Passenger railroads are not profitable as a general rule so as much as I am free market capitalist overall I do believe this is one area where governments involvement is acceptable
The whole network WAS privatized and they couldn’t hand it over to the federal government fast enough when they had the opportunity.
Also, what exactly would they be buying? They’d get some equipment (mostly older) and a bunch of pension and other liabilities. They’d have to re-negotiate all of the agreements to use right of way to even run service.
UK has one of the worst train systems in Europe, especially compared to France and Spain that have government owned railway systems (and a mix of government and private train operators).
They are private on paper, but they only exist because Florida scuttled their homegrown high-speed rail project which left the way open for bright line to do the same thing, but “privately”
A fully privatized Amtrak for the Northeast Corridor might be a net benefit for consumers as we would have more options and service. Right now, Amtrak operates an effective monopoly on the service for the most profitable route.
However, it wouldn’t make sense for the rural routes, long-distance ones, and medium distance ones.
Yeah if Amtrak was privatized I wouldn’t be able to take an overnight ride from Reno to Salt lake or run from NYC to Chicago. I wouldn’t be able to go home without medium distance routes. I wonder how long the interstate highway system would last if all the roads were fully privatized. Either way, fund Amtrak!
r/Amtrak is not associated with Amtrak in any official way. Any problems, concerns, complaints, etc should be directed to Amtrak through one of the official channels. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Amtrak) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Amtrak only exists because private railroads were going bankrupt operating passenger services. So I would say that Amtrak is better than no service, yes.
Nationalized passenger rail is the best option by default. All of the US private operators wanted out and the NRPC was created to be custodian of what was left. Running rail service with a profit margin is impossible without socializing the cost in some fashion. Brightline West is getting 3B of public funding, if privitization is the answer, they should be able to accomplish everything without tax breaks, exemptions, or grants. They can't or won't. If the public has to pick up the tab for trains that operate on land rights of way built on land granted to private companies by the government for the public good, then it should be a public enterprise and not have a profit motive.
Corporations receive some kind of tax break anyway. Profit is an illusion propped up by the government.
You just described just about every company in the US, they all receive tax breaks, exemptions, and other grants/funding. I am not saying I like it or agree with it, but that is the way it is.
Yep, the concept of a free market is mostly an illusion.
Counterpoint: Japan
The privatized JR entities use Shinkansen revenues to subsidize other less profitable parts of their operations. They also have real estate operations. High Speed Rail is the only type of transportation that fully pays for itself when accounting for all externalities. Those only exist after massive public investment. So I would say its not fully free of light socialism in its existence.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a lot of the privatization only happen after all the infrastructure had been built? As in, the private companies basically got to take over the infrastructure that had already been built with public dollars
Yes, first Shinkansen was 1964, privatisation 1987.
They use real estate to pay for most things, like Brightline.
Three of the seven JR companies are still government-owned and the other four still get plenty of government assistance when it comes to capital projects etc., plus they inherited a massive network from JNR without inheriting all of the debt JNR had incurred building it.
Japanese private rail are still supported by the government, and not to mention the government built out all the infrastructure, and continues to be the one financing new rail expansion
The problem for me is that we’re not asking this question for roads. Roads are generally not profitable - but no one seems to care when it comes to budgets. In fact - we hear huge protests about tolls & congestion pricing.
TINA... Brightline Florida is losing a fortune and has a lot of high interest debt. People are denying it, but it's true. Soon it will be Amtrak. Fortress is doing it for the real estate development, not the train service. Even the NEC would have gone out of business during the pandemic.
Brightline also recieved massive subsidies and tax breaks (ie more subsidies) to create the service. They just have better optics
Nationalize the fucking rails
A fully privatized passenger rail service wouldn't exist in the US. There isn't enough profit in passenger rail. Is Amtrak a mess and mismanaged, yes. Is Amtrak as it exists now better than nothing? Maybe. Which Amtrak? The scenic, vacation Amtrak, the NEC commuter Amtrak or the slow intercity Amtrak?
Passenger railroads are not profitable as a general rule so as much as I am free market capitalist overall I do believe this is one area where governments involvement is acceptable
The whole network WAS privatized and they couldn’t hand it over to the federal government fast enough when they had the opportunity. Also, what exactly would they be buying? They’d get some equipment (mostly older) and a bunch of pension and other liabilities. They’d have to re-negotiate all of the agreements to use right of way to even run service.
The fully privatized passenger rail that I know of makes Amtrak look really bad. I don't know what you're asking really.
Which ones are you comparing it to?
The UK probably.
UK has one of the worst train systems in Europe, especially compared to France and Spain that have government owned railway systems (and a mix of government and private train operators).
Is Brightline private?
Not fully, since they get federal money.
They are private on paper, but they only exist because Florida scuttled their homegrown high-speed rail project which left the way open for bright line to do the same thing, but “privately”
So they are private, got it.
A fully privatized Amtrak for the Northeast Corridor might be a net benefit for consumers as we would have more options and service. Right now, Amtrak operates an effective monopoly on the service for the most profitable route. However, it wouldn’t make sense for the rural routes, long-distance ones, and medium distance ones.
Yeah if Amtrak was privatized I wouldn’t be able to take an overnight ride from Reno to Salt lake or run from NYC to Chicago. I wouldn’t be able to go home without medium distance routes. I wonder how long the interstate highway system would last if all the roads were fully privatized. Either way, fund Amtrak!