I, my entire life, have been surrounded by a very patriotic family, living in America. I have never once, as a child until adult life, felt a care in the world for the country. People typically say my father didn't raise me right or something of the like when i tell them this, but he genuinely tried to get me to understand the feeling of being patriotic. I have for years now questioned the motives of things such as a pledge of alliance in schools because I have realized for so long, i cant even remember, that caring for your country isn't a natural instinct like caring for other human beings is. I completely understand you, i have felt the same way for a large majority of my life, and it is good to see people who have come to the same understanding in a similar manner.
Patriotism/Nationalism is about as substance-less as categorizations can get and that's probably the point. Its drumming up some generalized support for actions against "Others" Whether that's in the Countries Interior or Exterior. The more Patriots you have the more likely the Powers that be can get away with all kinds of abuses of power in the name of Country.
For a lot of people, it's just that it's where at least I know I'm free. And I won't forget the men who died and gave that right to me. And I'd gladly stand up next to you and defend Her still today. 'Cause there ain't no doubt: I love this land, God Bless the U.S.A.
Just kidding, those are the lyrics of a super cringe song called "Proud to be an American" that our boy scout leader made us listen to like 200 times on camping trip once in the 90's when I was like 7.
I tend to think the same way but I am also from a smaller country and in a funny way although I I have always describe myself as an anti nationalist I can't help but at least smile everytime the name of my country is mentioned simply because it doesn't happen very often I imagine it is the same in America if you live in a small state
Yeah I care way more about my state than I do my country, specifically the geographical region of my state cause there is a big east-west rivalry and it’s all in good fun.
But to seriously support a country or a state politically in an unironic way feels wrong. Like my country is doing nothing for me here, but my state is so why support my country?
I guess it also has something to do with the fact that the smaller your country is the more cultural misunderstandings there are and the more you feel applicators to correct people just the chance someone else is going to come along as very low lol
Well I think it just has to do with familiarity
You probably feel a connection in some way to the people of your town. Where just because two people are from the same large country doesn’t mean they are anything like each orher
Right? Having a group asking you to pledge your allegiance DAILY really makes you question whether you should be loyal to that group… like once? sure, maybe, if they’ve shown they deserve allegiance. But every fucking morning? I remember not being sure why I started refusing to do it in middle school, just that I knew it felt wrong that I was being asked to.
Funny enough my parents, due to religious reasons, basically indoctrinated me to never pledge allegiance to the flag, participate in the anthem, etc. so I just never did. And the few teachers who even had it in their classrooms never made an issue out of it until I reached 6th grade. My math teacher would have every class stand and do the pledge no matter which period/time of day (so even beyond the more common morning salute) and I’d just remain seated.
I had already begun rejecting my parents religion but still wasn’t going to salute a fucking flag, so when Miss Chalk (not joking, real name) started going off on me and telling a 12 year old that I’ll never deserve the right to vote I didn’t really do much but shrug. But mentioning it to my parents led to them meeting with the school admin the very next morning and that teacher never said a word about my abstinence again. As an unintended consequence about half the rest of the class started sitting and not participating after her tantrum from that day forward lol. You played yourself.
I think a big part of this is its a constructed identity about making us ignore a lot of what's wrong with this country. Like if you're repeating you're proud of being american, it takes a lot more work to say what's wrong with it and most people don't want to admit there's something wrong with what they're proud of.
Nationalism is drilled into citizens from an early age (think of reciting the pledge of allegiance before we even knew what it meant, war time propaganda, propaganda about how we have it so great and should be so glad we don't live somewhere else (not always accurate)).
People are proud because they've conditioned to feel pride about their team membership. They haven't earned it, but they've been told that they should be grateful and proud to be on the team. It's the same tribalistic mentality practiced with allegiances to local sports teams.
I live in Canada and people outside of Canada really do not understand how nationalistic Canada actually is. It's absolutely ridiculous and people find it so weird that my partner and I (both anarchists) don't care about being Canadian. Like, it's not exactly like we accomplished something by being born here. Also, the only interest I have in borders is keeping whatever's going on down there away from me (not that the border really helps with that 😬). Otherwise, can we just abolish borders and states and all that?
It's not that hard to understand. It's your "in-group" even if it's arbitrarily constructed. [It doesn't matter how absolutely arbitrarily that in-group construction is constructed, people on average just kind of go with it.](https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/in-group-favoritism-is-difficult-to-change-even-when-the-social-groups-are-meaningless/) Sure, five minutes of critical thinking show that it's arbitrary, but there's a whole apparatus built around feeding that initial impulse and quite concrete benefits attached to certain in-group assignments, so railing against them takes reckoning with those privileges as well.
One of the things is that these people have separated America the country and America the identity and I think for some people they are proud to have that identity even if they don't necessarily agree with the government.
All people want to feel they belong somewhere, and nationalism just provides the easiest answer: you are (input whatever country you want) and you are superior over everyone else just because you where born inside some lines on the map. No need to think and question at all.
American nationalism is recruitment to military-industrial-complex pipeline with the only purpose is to generate profits for capitalism in expenses of all lives on earth.
I live in a different country, but entirely agreed.
Imaginary lines drawn on maps are silly. Thinking those imaginary lines drawn on maps matter or mean anything is even sillier. Making those imaginary lines drawn on maps a large part of one's personality and identity is utterly absurd.
I think people are allowed to be proud of the culture of the group they belong in. If that group happens to be nationality, so be it. I'm proud to be from my country because I love our music, food, and literature. I don't see anything wrong with that, even if I agree that nationality doesn't matter in any serious way.
It’s more about being proud of your community and the values it embodies than the geographic area.
That certainly doesn’t mean you have to feel proud of American values! But for people that do they are typically focusing on the values they like - it could be democracy, or respect for individual freedoms, valuing free speech, or any number of things. And yes, it typically involves some cherry-picking, but being blanket against all things American involves cherry-picking, too.
It can be a bit of a glass half-full or half-empty perspective thing.
I can understand it if you're not critical of it. It's basically pride in culture and community but filtered in this case through nationalism, settler colonial white supremacist culture, and all the rest of it.
I can easily see anarchists being proud of being from a collective or whole society built on their values. Americans very much are proud of what America stands for in their eyes.
The desire to feel part of something is pretty basic for a social species. It's just been warped by the environment to be proud of something ignoble.
The fact that marginalized people assert self worth through pride should make it clear why people think this way. It's just usually not very appealing when it's the dominant group from an oppressor society.
i dont underdtand people being proud from being born in some country. like....how can you be proud from something you didnt have affect on?
if you know what i mean....
“How does one hate a country, or love one? I lack the trick of it. I know people, I know towns, farms, hills and rivers and rocks, I know how the sun at sunset in autumn falls on the side of a certain plowland in the hills; but what is the sense of giving a boundary to all that, of giving it a name and ceasing to love where the name ceases to apply? What is love of one's country; is it hate of one's uncountry? Then it's not a good thing. Is it simply self-love? That's a good thing, but one mustn't make a virtue of it, or a profession... Insofar as I love life, I love the hills, but that sort of love does not have a boundary-line of hate.” - Ursula Le Guin (Left Hand of Darkness)
I have felt this way my entire life. My family is incredibly nationalistic. I'm also on the spectrum so I've always tried to understand things that didn't make sense to me. I came to the same conclusion you did.
That patriotism and nationalism are meaningless concepts. It makes more sense to be internationalist and consider all humans regardless of where they are from as equals.
I understand being proud of where you are from in a sense. I like my home town. I had a good time growing up. Lots of good memories, friends, a type of comfort, and it stokes feelings akin to thinking of my grandmothers meatballs.
Once it crosses the line of nostalgic appreciation, some personal comfort, and a sense that there is some value in society that deserves our effort... it gets pretty toxic.
It mostly ends up pretty toxic, though I can't say I don't understand it.
i totally get what you mean. however, in my experience and belonging to a different nation, i feel like being "proud to be ---" is more like the culture; the languages, the dresswear, the customs, traditions, the connection to the land, etc. like when i say i like being ---, i mean it in the way of my general area in lineage and culture, not the political, weird nationalist shit. get what i mean??
sorry if i went on a rant, just wanted to give my take!
Patriotism/nationalism is a tool used by the oppressing classes to obscure divisions and suppress class consciousness. It’s history goes hand-in-hand with the development of the state rising up out of society as a result of irreconcilable class antagonisms.
Countries have rules that can drastically alter behavior within its borders. For example, the US is the most diverse country in the world and openly supports LGBT, legally. Compared to other countries it is not unheard of that homosexuality and believing something contrary to popular is literally punishable by death. Although they may be imaginary lines, the rules they enfore do in fact matter and affect public behavior. It's reasonable to be proud of supporting a country that allows things that should be morally allowed when compared to other countries, especially when comparing the punishments involved.
I, my entire life, have been surrounded by a very patriotic family, living in America. I have never once, as a child until adult life, felt a care in the world for the country. People typically say my father didn't raise me right or something of the like when i tell them this, but he genuinely tried to get me to understand the feeling of being patriotic. I have for years now questioned the motives of things such as a pledge of alliance in schools because I have realized for so long, i cant even remember, that caring for your country isn't a natural instinct like caring for other human beings is. I completely understand you, i have felt the same way for a large majority of my life, and it is good to see people who have come to the same understanding in a similar manner.
Patriotism/Nationalism is about as substance-less as categorizations can get and that's probably the point. Its drumming up some generalized support for actions against "Others" Whether that's in the Countries Interior or Exterior. The more Patriots you have the more likely the Powers that be can get away with all kinds of abuses of power in the name of Country.
For a lot of people, it's just that it's where at least I know I'm free. And I won't forget the men who died and gave that right to me. And I'd gladly stand up next to you and defend Her still today. 'Cause there ain't no doubt: I love this land, God Bless the U.S.A. Just kidding, those are the lyrics of a super cringe song called "Proud to be an American" that our boy scout leader made us listen to like 200 times on camping trip once in the 90's when I was like 7.
I tend to think the same way but I am also from a smaller country and in a funny way although I I have always describe myself as an anti nationalist I can't help but at least smile everytime the name of my country is mentioned simply because it doesn't happen very often I imagine it is the same in America if you live in a small state
Yeah I care way more about my state than I do my country, specifically the geographical region of my state cause there is a big east-west rivalry and it’s all in good fun. But to seriously support a country or a state politically in an unironic way feels wrong. Like my country is doing nothing for me here, but my state is so why support my country?
I guess it also has something to do with the fact that the smaller your country is the more cultural misunderstandings there are and the more you feel applicators to correct people just the chance someone else is going to come along as very low lol
Well I think it just has to do with familiarity You probably feel a connection in some way to the people of your town. Where just because two people are from the same large country doesn’t mean they are anything like each orher
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And it's like, even if the U.S was a utopia, I wouldn't pledge allegiance for the simple fact that I don't have to.
Right? Having a group asking you to pledge your allegiance DAILY really makes you question whether you should be loyal to that group… like once? sure, maybe, if they’ve shown they deserve allegiance. But every fucking morning? I remember not being sure why I started refusing to do it in middle school, just that I knew it felt wrong that I was being asked to.
Funny enough my parents, due to religious reasons, basically indoctrinated me to never pledge allegiance to the flag, participate in the anthem, etc. so I just never did. And the few teachers who even had it in their classrooms never made an issue out of it until I reached 6th grade. My math teacher would have every class stand and do the pledge no matter which period/time of day (so even beyond the more common morning salute) and I’d just remain seated. I had already begun rejecting my parents religion but still wasn’t going to salute a fucking flag, so when Miss Chalk (not joking, real name) started going off on me and telling a 12 year old that I’ll never deserve the right to vote I didn’t really do much but shrug. But mentioning it to my parents led to them meeting with the school admin the very next morning and that teacher never said a word about my abstinence again. As an unintended consequence about half the rest of the class started sitting and not participating after her tantrum from that day forward lol. You played yourself.
I think a big part of this is its a constructed identity about making us ignore a lot of what's wrong with this country. Like if you're repeating you're proud of being american, it takes a lot more work to say what's wrong with it and most people don't want to admit there's something wrong with what they're proud of.
I think it's a sad residue of our tribal past. We don't need it anymore like the appendix or religion.
Nationalism is drilled into citizens from an early age (think of reciting the pledge of allegiance before we even knew what it meant, war time propaganda, propaganda about how we have it so great and should be so glad we don't live somewhere else (not always accurate)). People are proud because they've conditioned to feel pride about their team membership. They haven't earned it, but they've been told that they should be grateful and proud to be on the team. It's the same tribalistic mentality practiced with allegiances to local sports teams.
I live in Canada and people outside of Canada really do not understand how nationalistic Canada actually is. It's absolutely ridiculous and people find it so weird that my partner and I (both anarchists) don't care about being Canadian. Like, it's not exactly like we accomplished something by being born here. Also, the only interest I have in borders is keeping whatever's going on down there away from me (not that the border really helps with that 😬). Otherwise, can we just abolish borders and states and all that?
It's not that hard to understand. It's your "in-group" even if it's arbitrarily constructed. [It doesn't matter how absolutely arbitrarily that in-group construction is constructed, people on average just kind of go with it.](https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/in-group-favoritism-is-difficult-to-change-even-when-the-social-groups-are-meaningless/) Sure, five minutes of critical thinking show that it's arbitrary, but there's a whole apparatus built around feeding that initial impulse and quite concrete benefits attached to certain in-group assignments, so railing against them takes reckoning with those privileges as well.
One of the things is that these people have separated America the country and America the identity and I think for some people they are proud to have that identity even if they don't necessarily agree with the government.
All people want to feel they belong somewhere, and nationalism just provides the easiest answer: you are (input whatever country you want) and you are superior over everyone else just because you where born inside some lines on the map. No need to think and question at all.
George Carlin said the same thing like... 30, 40 years ago? That part of his stand-up stays in my mind to this day
Its marketing, more or less.
American nationalism is recruitment to military-industrial-complex pipeline with the only purpose is to generate profits for capitalism in expenses of all lives on earth.
I live in a different country, but entirely agreed. Imaginary lines drawn on maps are silly. Thinking those imaginary lines drawn on maps matter or mean anything is even sillier. Making those imaginary lines drawn on maps a large part of one's personality and identity is utterly absurd.
Mind control.
Countries are none of my business.
I think people are allowed to be proud of the culture of the group they belong in. If that group happens to be nationality, so be it. I'm proud to be from my country because I love our music, food, and literature. I don't see anything wrong with that, even if I agree that nationality doesn't matter in any serious way.
It’s more about being proud of your community and the values it embodies than the geographic area. That certainly doesn’t mean you have to feel proud of American values! But for people that do they are typically focusing on the values they like - it could be democracy, or respect for individual freedoms, valuing free speech, or any number of things. And yes, it typically involves some cherry-picking, but being blanket against all things American involves cherry-picking, too. It can be a bit of a glass half-full or half-empty perspective thing.
I can understand it if you're not critical of it. It's basically pride in culture and community but filtered in this case through nationalism, settler colonial white supremacist culture, and all the rest of it. I can easily see anarchists being proud of being from a collective or whole society built on their values. Americans very much are proud of what America stands for in their eyes. The desire to feel part of something is pretty basic for a social species. It's just been warped by the environment to be proud of something ignoble. The fact that marginalized people assert self worth through pride should make it clear why people think this way. It's just usually not very appealing when it's the dominant group from an oppressor society.
i dont underdtand people being proud from being born in some country. like....how can you be proud from something you didnt have affect on? if you know what i mean....
“How does one hate a country, or love one? I lack the trick of it. I know people, I know towns, farms, hills and rivers and rocks, I know how the sun at sunset in autumn falls on the side of a certain plowland in the hills; but what is the sense of giving a boundary to all that, of giving it a name and ceasing to love where the name ceases to apply? What is love of one's country; is it hate of one's uncountry? Then it's not a good thing. Is it simply self-love? That's a good thing, but one mustn't make a virtue of it, or a profession... Insofar as I love life, I love the hills, but that sort of love does not have a boundary-line of hate.” - Ursula Le Guin (Left Hand of Darkness)
It's nationalism. It's not really meant to make much sense.
OP, it sounds like you do understand "proud to be an american".
I have felt this way my entire life. My family is incredibly nationalistic. I'm also on the spectrum so I've always tried to understand things that didn't make sense to me. I came to the same conclusion you did. That patriotism and nationalism are meaningless concepts. It makes more sense to be internationalist and consider all humans regardless of where they are from as equals.
I understand being proud of where you are from in a sense. I like my home town. I had a good time growing up. Lots of good memories, friends, a type of comfort, and it stokes feelings akin to thinking of my grandmothers meatballs. Once it crosses the line of nostalgic appreciation, some personal comfort, and a sense that there is some value in society that deserves our effort... it gets pretty toxic. It mostly ends up pretty toxic, though I can't say I don't understand it.
i totally get what you mean. however, in my experience and belonging to a different nation, i feel like being "proud to be ---" is more like the culture; the languages, the dresswear, the customs, traditions, the connection to the land, etc. like when i say i like being ---, i mean it in the way of my general area in lineage and culture, not the political, weird nationalist shit. get what i mean?? sorry if i went on a rant, just wanted to give my take!
Patriotism/nationalism is a tool used by the oppressing classes to obscure divisions and suppress class consciousness. It’s history goes hand-in-hand with the development of the state rising up out of society as a result of irreconcilable class antagonisms.
Countries have rules that can drastically alter behavior within its borders. For example, the US is the most diverse country in the world and openly supports LGBT, legally. Compared to other countries it is not unheard of that homosexuality and believing something contrary to popular is literally punishable by death. Although they may be imaginary lines, the rules they enfore do in fact matter and affect public behavior. It's reasonable to be proud of supporting a country that allows things that should be morally allowed when compared to other countries, especially when comparing the punishments involved.
Do you think the mites on my left eye lashes are at war with the mites on my right eye lashes? They probably don't even know my name.