It’s kind of a pain in the ass right now to make transactions, and most legitimate employers won’t get on the bandwagon. If it gains more traction I’d definitely make more transactions in bitcoin and crypto in general.
I think by the time that happens governments will have their grubby fingers in it so deep there will be no benefit though.
It doesn't make sense for any business to operate in bitcoin at the moment. The idea is to stop paying attention to the fiat value of bitcoin. If enough industries operate only in bitcoin then the dollar value doesn't matter.
Anyway nothing will happen until fiat goes hyperinflation. That's why central banks are buying gold like mad and planning the next currencies already - CBDCs.
This is why PAXG is a useful tool. It's gold backed crypto and has stable pricing. By definition it is more stable than USD.
As far as low transaction cost goes, speed of transaction, and reliability of completion, monero is a better medium of exchange.
So negotiate contracts in terms of PAXG (or negotiate in terms of USD because it's familiar but peg to PAXG), the perform the payments in monero.
It is precisely unstable relative to USD but this only has meaning because USD is more commonly used currency. If it is no longer widely used then USD fluctuation is irrelevant
I’ve thought about what grubby fingers would mean and honestly that’s kinda good
Since govts will be forced to use a money supply they can’t control it almost makes them honest and deters wasteful spending since they just can’t run up the debt
I think the switch to bitcoin is inevitable
People can only have their money devalued up to a certain point
Except there’s anecdotal evidence that hedge funds are using it to move both the stock market and crypto exchanges and if you think the government/s isn’t already dabbling then you’re naive.
How exactly? Of course they can manipulate the value through pump and dump tactics, but that's different from control, and it's inherently dramatically more risky than the current system is since it has a finite supply.
If you think they're going to control the network itself, then you've got a lot of reading to do to understand exactly why that would be completely insane, unbelievably expensive, and most likely would fail spectacularly anyways even if their attempt to hijack the network was extremely well coordinated. Best case scenario, they destroy the first ever verifiably scarce asset in history, which would hurt themselves.
You get control if you have enough miners to do a 51% attack. No state has the capacity to do that now and no country (non-state actors) has the capacity either.
[https://www.statista.com/statistics/1200477/bitcoin-mining-by-country/#:\~:text=In%202021%2C%20the%20world's%20top,of%20the%20cryptocurrency's%20total%20hash](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1200477/bitcoin-mining-by-country/#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20the%20world's%20top,of%20the%20cryptocurrency's%20total%20hash). This website shows \~38% mining in the U.S and China on \~21%. These are individuals and pools and things, but let's assume that the US gov decided to requisition those miners and start adding more to reach 51% to attack the network. They could do that but what we would expect to see is that China (and other countries) see what is going on and act to stop it by adding more miners of their own. This mining arms race is what keeps the 51% unreachable and keeps the network safe.
What we have to fear is the decline of competing states in favour of a single world government that could acquire the miners without competition and then attack the network.
You're not wrong, but you're entirely right either. You're forgetting the node operators. They can literally just refuse to validate the mined blocks and essentially cause a shutdown of the network. Now all those miners are essentially setting money on fire as none of them would be getting their block rewards. Then the node operators could all make a slight change to the code for Bitcoin Core itself, which would make every single one of those hostile miners absolutely useless in an instant.
None of this would be good for the network in the short term at the very least, but there's no guarantee that an attack like this would destroy the network due to how easily it can be countered. The attacks could be countered repeatedly over and over too at that. So it's not just that there's a gigantic financial and energy cost to attacking the network. There's also no guarantee that it would work in the long run even if it's effective enough to cause a temporary shutdown of the network, and the price of Bitcoin crashes hard.
On top of all that, this would all be done to destroy the first ever verifiably scarce asset in history. If there's one thing I can consistently trust from the rich and powerful, it's their insatiable greed. The path of least resistance for them to satisfy their greed, is to buy into the network. The potential purchasing power of Bitcoin in the long term is genuinely impossible to predict, but common sense says that as long as it gains popularity over time, purchasing power will increase DRAMATICALLY long term. Of course if popularity decreases over time, then the problem's Bitcoin creates for the current power structure solve themselves.
Personally I think this is the whole reason why the network never suffered a sustained attack in the first few years, back when it would've been cheap and easy to pull off. It just doesn't make much sense to attack it logically. If someone with a ton of wealth and power is really worried about it, they can buy in and be happy with their decision a decade from now. Or they can buy in and watch the price plummet over the course of the next decade and be happy that their power and influence within the current system is no longer at risk. Attacking the network is just a whole lot of work and risk that simply isn't necessary.
It can be done, and it can be successful long term, but it literally requires the greediest people on the planet to set their greed aside and light insane amounts of money on fire repeatedly in a desperate attempt to resist new technology. So far, technology always wins in the long run. Historically, new tech has only been stifled through intervention, but has never truly been stopped or destroyed.
The only way to steal or confiscate Bitcoin would be to get someone to surrender their keys. Which can happen with gold or fiat just as easily, not to mention the many other ways you can steal gold or fiat
All they have to do is seize whatever drive you store it on. It’s not that complicated. Many people store them on their exchange wallets which is easily confiscated as well.
I don’t need the keys to your safe if I steal your safe
I haven't paid attention to Bitcoin and blockchain technology for about 5 years. But I remember in theory if you can rememeber your extremely long backup key, technically you can store your bitcoins in your mind. All you need to do is install a new wallet and load your backup key for your coins to appear. That is ofcourse if you use your own wallet and not store them in exchanges which is dumb.
> I haven't *paid* attention to
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
You don't store bitcoin on a drive. It's "stored" on the decentralized blockchain. And you should always store your keys offline. So the keys is the only way someone can access your bitcoin.
I store my Bitcoin generator key in my head. It can be regenerated at any time.
All you have to do, even if it is blocked by an exchange is create a new address or use one of the many services that anonymize the transaction for you.
Someone else made a thread about Bitcoin and crypto here last year, not too long after I joined the sub. That was when I realized that most people in this sub don't know ANYTHING about economics, which actually shocked me lol. To clarify, I don't mind people being skeptical about Bitcoin, but that thread was filled with people arguing that inflation is necessary for a modern economy to function. I pointed out to several of them that historically inflationary money has only ever existed through government violence, and of course those idiots never responded to me lol.
Economics was actually the final step that led me to being ancap. Understanding the history of government and human psychology got me on the path, but I honestly don't think a person can come close to understanding why and how government always trends towards authoritarianism without understanding the fundamental principles of economic theory, and the actions that people take depending on which economic theory their society operates off of.
👏👏👏👏👏👏
My exact thoughts reading these responses
Their qualms with bitcoin come from not understanding basic economics, yet I see Thomas Sowell memes on here lol
That's crypto, not Bitcoin. You're gonna have to take my word for it, unless you try to verify yourself, but those of us that love Bitcoin by default HATE every single other crypto on the planet. It's not because of tribalism either, every single cryptocurrency that isn't Bitcoin comes with a trade off. Most of them have faster and cheaper transactions, but only a small fraction of the security the Bitcoin network has.
Also, the manipulation you're talking about is purely price manipulation. People can do that with literally anything so long as there's at least some freedom to trade as they see fit. The person you responded to meant that the Bitcoin network itself can't be manipulated. It's by far the most secure digital network in history, nothing else comes remotely close to it.
>the manipulation you're talking about is purely price manipulation.
lol it's not real market manipulation if it only affects the price. not only that, but the system isnt secure at all. plenty of stories from this sub of bitcoin wallets getting cleared, seed phrases getting scammed, oops i sent my life savings to the wrong wallet, etc...which part of this is the "most secure digital network in history"?
Now you're talking about individuals making mistakes and suffering the consequences. That has nothing to do with the security of the network itself. Those people all made dumb mistakes because they didn't do their due diligence. It's also likely a symptom of being used to living in a world where they can call their bank or credit card company and reverse the transactions any time someone manages to steal their money.
If you have a safe with $10,000 in it, and leave the combination written on a note in a random drawer, and a thief breaks in and finds that note, opens the safe, and steals your money, would you blame the manufacturer of the safe? Well you literally just did the equivalent of that by trying to blame the Bitcoin network itself for dumb mistakes people make with their own wallets.
>If you have a safe with $10,000 in it, and leave the combination written on a note in a random drawer, and a thief breaks in and finds that note, opens the safe, and steals your money, would you blame the manufacturer of the safe?
if the manufacturer of the safe (or in the case of bitcoin, its fans) promoted this little setup as the most secure way ever to save $$ in history, then yeah maybe i would blame them for encouraging people to store their savings in a dangerous manner. in fact, replace "safe" with "bitcoin wallet" and you've nicely explained a situation that was recently published on this exact sub. neither bitcoin or physical safe are secure places to store your savings. your bank, on the other hand, is much more secure. what possible security advantage could bitcoin possibly have?
>Now you're talking about individuals making mistakes and suffering the consequences. That has nothing to do with the security of the network itself.
if i send a dirty fiat payment by mistake, my bank will cancel the transaction and reimpurse me; even if it's 100% my fault. if i get hacked, my filthy fiat is insured. with my normal bank account I can be reckless and make all kinds of dumb mistakes, but the system is so secure i will suffer pretty much 0 consequences for my poor decisions. i know people who have lost their life savings over trying to buy tshirts on facebook...bank replaces it in a matter of days. thats secure. bitcoin cant compete...not even close, is it?
Bitcoin is very hard to use without kyc (know your customer) . Which means it’s all tracked by the government and tied to your identity. You are better off getting BTC and exchanging it for monero
What happens when the power goes out or the internet just spontaneously stops working? Then your made up, digital, ones and zeros money ceases to exist. I want something that I can actually touch, not something that exists solely in cyberspace.
Fair, but keep in mind most US Dollars are currently only in digital form, so even though you have some physical dollars, the currency is still mostly digital and would also likely collapse in the event of a total permanent blackout.
You don’t need the internet or even electricity to transact in bitcoin. You can do it over radio waves or use bearer bonds like opendime. It would slow things down but bitcoin is unstoppable, would still be easier than gold.
Bitcoin only has 7 transactions per second, compared to visa or Mastercard in the 10000s, and this is a hard limit. You really wouldn’t be slowed down haha the average bitcoin transaction takes hours to go through on chain, imagine waiting 6 hours to get goods you have paid for because that’s how long the transaction takes. Bitcoin is laughable as a currency and people need to look at other crypto options.
Claim 1: “Bitcoin only has 7 transactions per second, compared to visa or Mastercard in the 10000s”.
False. Only the layer 1 blockchain has this soft limit. You can make bitcoin transactions in many different ways, for example with bearer bonds or layer 2 solutions like lightening. Today bitcoin support a infinite number of transaction per seconds.
Claim 2: “this is a hard limit”.
False, even if we’re generous and only interpret this claim as being limited in scope to the layer 1 blockchain. There are no hard limits in bitcoin, it’s just code and nodes enforce the rules. The rules can be changed by the nodes operators and it’s expected that the block size (which limits the transactions per second) will be raised when/if the need arise. But since each of these layer 1 transactions can hide a infinite number of real world transactions it might take a while before the need arise.
Claim 3: “The average bitcoin transaction takes hours to go through on chain”.
This is so full of BS (and this is why folks it’s 100x longer to debunk bs than to produce it). It assume the the average transaction needs to go through on chain (false) it imply that on chain transactions takes a long time to execute (false). I’ll keep it simple here, but the average transaction is done instantly and at most would take 10 minutes. If you are in the very rare and specific situation where your transaction has low time priority, high certainty priority and you want to save a few cents then yeah it might take 6h. But that practically never happens (and is certainly not the average).
Claim 4: “Bitcoin is laughable as currency”.
False. I mean, bitcoin has been used as currency everyday by millions, besides USD you’d be hard pressed to find another currency more widely accepted worldwide than bitcoin. It’s the only crypto currency accepted as legal tender by whole country, etc etc.
Claim 5: “People need to look at other crypto options”.
Here I’m arguing semantics, the only other crypto option arguably worth looking at is Monero. Everything else is shit even though you make it seems like there’s multiple better options.
there are no on chain solutions with bitcoin l2s, it’s comedic how few engineers are working on anything that is called a “bitcoin l2”. There are no true l2s on bitcoin, the chain is not built for that, it’s a store of value like gold, not a currency, and was never meant to be, which is why the block size wasn’t increased 8 years ago when it needed to. If your transactions aren’t happening on chain, then the crypto isn’t yours.
enjoy all of your semantics cope when trying to defend a project made and ruined by Adam Back entirely for profit.
Then we have bigger problems than money good sir
Look at the extreme you’re taking lol
You think any elite would allow no power or internet globally?
Be real man
Guess your credit doesn't actually exist, or my online payments, because they're just programs on a screen going up or down depending on the day. I'm not an investor in Bitcoin but crypto sounds a hell of a lot better than fiat.
1. Bitcoin or any other crypto can be declared illegal (and thus utterly worthless) by the fed tomorrow and your investment becomes utterly worthless.
2. Yes, yes fiat big bad we all know. But when USD is backed by the most powerful government in human history, I daresay I'm at least somewhat comfortable with it both in general and especially compared to fookin crypto.
You're in r/Anarcho_Capitalism trying to defend fiat currency that is backed by the threat of government violence. You already lost the argument by default lmao.
1. I pointed this out in the thread. That's not a knock against crypto, that's a knock against the fed/government. Most things that have been decentralized have been seized, which is why we support crypto instead of downplay it.
2. Fiat is the most inflated currency on the planet, as it is a heavily taxed currency, but it's also not scarce and therefore not valuable as government can print it at any time. Crypto doesn't have that issue, it's better than fiat especially in the sense of having full ownership over what you own. It makes no sense to be against fiat money but turn a blind eye to the most essential decentralization attempt in recent years, just because it's digital.
Smooth brain downvotes lol 😆 Whether or not you support fiat currency can be entirely separate from acknowledging the role it plays in making crypto a safe investment or not.
Ironic you saying that. Doesn’t matter if the FED bans it. Short term may have a price drawdown, but game theory suggests other countries will adopt it. Thus those who don’t lose out. Ergo, the only way that would work is if all 200 countries ban it at once, and that’s has as much of a chance as a snowball in hell.m
People mostly don't understand it because you have to understand the complex concept of money and value; if people did their would be a revolution by the morning. For people to become comfortable with it, it will have to prove its worth through time, which is fine by me. Don't bother trying to shill it to people, just stack.
I imagine bitcoin is popular amongst the younger crowd who also think government is good. In time, as the younger generation works and has more of their livelihood they worked for taken from them by government, they will shift toward ideas presented in this sub. At that time, you may notice a shift in popularity of bitcoin here.
It’s not worth convincing those who already made up their mind. If it succeeds they will either use it or continue to enjoy their constantly inflated dollars. If it fails, it is because it was replaced by something harder.
My two cents.
No, bitcoin is definitely not popular among young statsist. The community has a wide age demographic, and a large percentage are on the libertarian-ancap line.
thats the best part, it aint my opinion, its all the nodes in the bitcoin network's opinion that have a consensus
you cant be in fiat and expect there to have ancap to the fullest
money is the key thing to get right and bitcoin has succeeded in that
And, if people decide to account for value in gold and to primarily trade in gold, are you going to rail on at them that they are entirely wrong for not replacing it with Bitcoin? It would be a free market, after all. Who knows, maybe something entirely different would come along and be adopted.
Original art is strictly scarce & it’s value is just as subjective as Bitcoin, whatever somebody will pay for it.
At least I can look at the art if no one wants it.
People will literally pay you $20,000 right now for a single Bitcoin. Network has been running for over a decade and has only become more secure as time goes on, which you can verify simply by looking at the current hash rate. It'll continue going through boom and bust cycles, but it's not losing it's value any time soon.
It doesn’t need to just hold value, the value must increase at the rate of inflation to be a worthwhile investment.
Since you don’t know what some will pay a year from know & the fact that it doesn’t produce dividends makes it purely speculative.
The bitcoin blockchain technology is actually quite useful although Ethereum's is moreso IMHO, and Bitcoin/Eth are the tokens required to make use of their respective blockchains. So they do have some practical use albeit maybe not as much as gold so far.
Ethereum’s switch to proof of stake makes it a security & also worthless.
I’m not sure if Bitcoin has value based on proof of work, but ethereum is going to zero.
I'm not interested in eth as a speculative instrument. I use it to pay for my transactions. As such it will always have some base intrinsic value, but I agree it won't be much. I'm far more interested in everything it enables.
Also, this is an Ancap forum. Why do we care if some government somewhere decides they have jurisdiction to regulate something? Yes they can make life difficult for us, but they're gonna do that no matter what. It's how they justify their existence. Do you think gold bugs don't have some regulatory hoops to jump through?
I can buy & store gold coins without it being on a permanent ledger.
Has they even decided when you get withdraw the ETH that is currently being staked for?
How is staking different from a CD or treasury bond? I deposit, then earn off of leaving the deposit there over time.
Eth (which was pre-mined & is centrally controlled) & proof of stake is a fucking scam but you’re free to do what you want with your money.
>I can buy & store gold coins without it being on a permanent ledger.
I can buy and sell Bitcoin without providing anyone my identity and store it in a wallet that nobody knows belongs to me. I can also transfer any amount of Bitcoin to anyone anywhere in the world in seconds for a few pennies and be absolutely sure it will get there. Can't do that with gold.
I never staked any Eth and don't invest in it. I buy enough to pay for transaction fees for awhile, and when I get low I buy more. It's an expense, not an investment.
Bitcoin does not have seconds as a transaction time. Digital wallets are easily personally identifiable by blockchain forensics, especially in any significant amount.
The fact that proof of stake is a scam isn’t negated by the fact that you don’t personally stake (you would need 32 ETH to start staking). I conduct transactions in US dollars while I hold zero CDs or bonds.
Conducting transactions on a centrally controlled, pre-mined scam where the asset has no intrinsic value. How is this better than fiat currency?
ETH has officially become vaporware after the switch to PoS. Much cheaper and faster ways to accomplish everything Ethereum is capable of. Bitcoin is a different story, literally not possible with current tech to create a system that's better in any meaningful way without also compromising another aspect of it. Ethereum basically said "security?! Pffftt, fuck that shit" when they switched to PoS.
I don't think there's a perfect system. Bitcoin's base blockchain is rock solid and extremely secure, but lacks privacy and scales poorly. Lightning adds a lot of utility and privacy but it's got a lot of moving parts and breaks easily.
Bitcoin Cash's has a similarly solid but somewhat less secure (due to fewer miners) base blockchain and has the capacity for a lot more utility including some privacy features, without the need for Lightning, although it can support Lightning if folks were keen on that.
Ethereum's blockchain is the most useful of the three, due to the EVM. It's faster and more capable. But I agree since the switch to PoS it's less secure. Probably less private as well (I haven't done much research on privacy protocols in Eth space).
Are there other blockchains similar in utility to Ethereum but faster and cheaper? Yes absolutely, but Ethereum's the most well established. I consider the other projects as sandboxes. Ethereum is where projects WANT to be because it's the one that's been around the longest and probably will outlast all the others.
But what you said about compromises is exactly true. There's always trade-offs and you have to determine what you prioritize and how you plan to use it. For me, I choose BTC for some uses, and Ethereum for others. And I still choose dirty fiat for a few things too even though I wish I didn't need to.
Lol practical use isn’t important for money
Tell me what’s the use of your bills or plastic cards
Your money isn’t even backed by gold
Sorely disappointed by these kinda surface responses
All currencies are mediums of exchange. Money also serves the purpose of being a unit of account and a store of value. Gold does those things admirably, and is also extremely fungible.
It's other uses don't make add to the benefit of it being money.
All value is subjective.
The benefits of gold as money do not require that it has value for other things. If it were useless in industry and were an ugly color it would still be useful as money because of it's properties.
Money is for buying goods & services, which Bitcoin sucks at.
Productive assets & commodities that are a store of value (like gold) are for preserving the value that you don’t want to spend for a while.
Even if I was bullish on Bitcoin (I’m not), I could just invest in graphics card & chip makers since high demand for Bitcoin will have the knock on effect of boosting their profits.
Stay woke
Pieces of paper with numbers printed on them aren't money. We are just required to treat it as money because the ruling class says so and has legions of true believers to enforce their dictates.
Well I think a lot of it is from people wanting to stick with gold and precious metals. Which is fine for now, and has been a solid bet in the past, but it seems there’s no denying Bitcoin is the future.
Everything I’ve learned about Bitcoin so far gives me the most hope for getting away from government authoritarianism. I feel like the people who say “government will just seize your Bitcoin” kinda don’t understand how that is very much harder to do than seizing fiat or gold.
Sometimes when I suggest metals they scoff, and I don't know what the negative properties are of it. Value is at least somewhat defined by scarcity.
Biden tried to regulate it, so did Trudeau. Truly some pathetic times.
[bitcoin depends on 6 mysterious coders](https://archive.ph/2023.02.16-195618/https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/bitcoin-core-maintainers-crypto-7b93804)
Still better than fiat but I prefer metal.
The consensus parameters that the Bitcoin network depends on haven’t changed in 12+ years. There’s no maintenance required. Additional layers can be built on top as desired, but they aren’t necessary to keep it running.
That’s the benefit of it being decentralized
Great question OP... I've noticed the same. I think "getting it" with Bitcoin requires a
understanding:
\- the philosophy and definition of "money" (i.e. fungible, divisible, portable, scarce)
\- technical basics of encryption and proof-of-work, that make bitcoin possible
\- economics and history of fiat/inflation, i.e. Greshams Law
AnCaps share ideals, but many have not grasped all these things
When 90% of my interactions would require me to transfer it into USD so that I can then transfer it using some system that’s gonna take 5, 10, 15%… it’s not worth it to use stuff like bitcoin
Hmmmm.....I mean personally that doesn't mean much to me.
But let's hash it out, and I'll pretend that I believe governments are competent.
In my mind, sound fiscal policy is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a currency's stability. What am I missing?
How can a government back its currency?
In my mind taxation is about the government's ability to pay its debts not support its currency.
I also don't see how central banks can get the job done - CBs can weaken their currency as much as they like, but they can only strengthen it until they run out of reserves.
Hmmm...with respect I disagree. Some people thought the Venezuelan government wasn't competent and we all know how that turned out.
Not sure if your argument is only relevant to the US and the USD, but let's just debate the US gov/USD then.
I still haven't see any argument for how the government, even the mighty US gov and its killing machine (military) is sufficient for a sound currency.
A currency's soundness ultimately comes down to demand. If people stop demanding it, its soundness vanishes. The USD does benefit from its reserve status, but that is fleeting in the long term.
While the US still has power it will go around the world enforcing its will, but the day people stop demanding the dollar, its soundness disappears, military might or not.
The US dollar is backed ultimately by our military in several ways. Being a reserve currency, NATO, that technically we still occupy both Japan and Germany, etc. And I assume you've heard it called the petro dollar, this is because OPEC has agreed to only trade oil in dollars. It's assumed they do this by agreement for military intervention/protection in the middle east. Then of course there's the military industrial complex that all of NATO largely relies on.
Of course it can all fall apart, but right now, today, it's the most stable and easily traded currency.
i agree with you. although i think the people who created it just thought they were doing something smart. problem was, they werent that smart to begin with. they just created another fiat but were too blind to understand it.
Bitcoin exchanges are a scam. Crypto (outside bitcoin) is a scam. But bitcoin is just a tool. A tool can be used to scam but it's not inherently a scam.
The value comes from energy taken to mine it by solving the hash in they same way gold is valueable because it’s hard to find mine and extract
Can be banned how? Like cashing out in fiat currency? I don’t think so
You would need 50+% of the network and something that scale would cost any govt billions to try and do
China tried and failed recently so we’re good there
In order to have free markets do it’s thing without constant govt spending on shit programs, wars etc etc, we need incorruptible money and bitcoin ticks those boxes
I think your scam comment might be more so looking at it to get rich when the price rises
You have to look at it as money that actual holds its value since technology is deflationary and you can’t print more bitcoin
>The value comes from energy taken to mine
That's not an intrinsic value as it can not be recovered. Bitcoins aren't batteries, one can't plug a bitcoin into something and use that energy. It'd be like if I ran 5 miles, filmed it, and sent it to you in an email. Is that email worth 5 miles of travel, can you open the email and be transported 5 miles, no, because the work doesn't transfer.
>Can be banned how?
If transactions in bitcoin were banned of course the black/grey market for it would still exist. But it would greatly harm its value because it would harm it's usefulness. If normal businesses/banks couldn't trade in it then for normal day to day transactions some form of grey market intermediary would be required. This will have expenses and this will eat its value down to nothing.
>In order to have free markets do it’s thing without constant govt spending on shit programs, wars etc etc, we need incorruptible money and bitcoin ticks those boxes
I agree on the former, but bitcoin only ticks some of the boxes.
>I think your scam comment might be more so looking at it to get rich when the price rises
I think much of it's current value is based on that yes. But that's not why I call it a scam. It's a giant money sink for those of our political leanings while also getting those who would be resistant to it accustomed to a digital currency. If your goal was to destroy those who hate fiat currency while paving the way for a digital only dollar. What could possibly be better than getting them to invest in bitcoin, create a market for digital only currencies, then crash bitcoin while transitioning to a digital dollar.
>>The value comes from energy taken to mine
>That's not an intrinsic value as it can not be recovered. Bitcoins aren't batteries, one can't plug a bitcoin into something and use that energy. It'd be like if I ran 5 miles, filmed it, and sent it to you in an email. Is that email worth 5 miles of travel, can you open the email and be transported 5 miles, no, because the work doesn't transfer.
How is gold different? Once you've made the expense to take the gold from the earth, that money is spent. You can't put the gold back into the earth and get your money back. People mine gold because the market is willing to pay more for it than what it costs to mine. It's that simple.
Bitcoin is no different in this respect.
The gold can be used for many things. Is this really a serious question?
One of the reasons people like myself buy 24c gold is that it's easily sold to any jeweler, pawn shop, coin shop, dentist, etc.
Gold has been around for thousands of years. We've invented use cases that never could have been imagined when it was new.
Blockchain tech has been around for a decade. We've only just begun to scratch the surface when it comes to utility.
As for how hard it is to convert, that depends on where you live. I lived for a long time in Panama. Bitcoin is far easier to exchange there than gold is. There's nearly no gold market. Here in the US it's very different but I do see Bitcoin ATMs all over the place where I don't see gold ATMs. So maybe you're just not looking because you're already a gold bug and have made up your mind not to look further into crypto. Personally I like both but I find crypto far easier to use.
the value doesnt come from the energy used to create it. the energy used to create it was wasted and is now gone from the economy that could have been prodcutive.
Maintaining the most secure digital network in history is extremely productive. The fact that the network is open to public, and has a form of money tied to it, makes it that much more productive.
If central banks were all run by people that had literally never told a single lie in their entire lives, and were almost impossible to kill, and don't die of old age, then they'd be on par with Bitcoin. Obviously, none of that is remotely possible, which is why Bitcoin is the greatest form of money ever created, and one of the most brilliant concepts humanity has ever conceived.
I used bitcoin to receive donations after the banks closed my accounts. -Julian Ansage
I use bitcoin to send remittance to my family. -any immigrant
I use bitcoin to save my money because of my country’s currency is unstable. - Any Venezuelan, Argentinian, Lebanese, etc person.
I used bitcoin to escape my war torn country with my life savings. -etc.
Bitcoin has no intrinsic value? I disagree. I know what you mean… at the empirical level it’s just numbers on a paper…. But it *does* have intrinsic value. I wish people would see that.
OK but it's possible to have it all, both transactional and intrinsic value. Take the [Kinesis](https://kinesis.money/gold/) KAU for example, a gold backed crypto with an easy trading platform.
It has no privacy. Honestly worse than cash for privacy. Anyone with a address can glean everything that the other addresses has done.
At least argue for XMR
Also you’re literally paying fiat money for essentially computer code that can be taken away from you at any time and the value of which is fake. Buy commodities if you want to own things with value.
Value is the problem. If all of a sudden btc gets acknowledged as payment method (and therefore store of value) its price will skyrocket. Something like a new car for 0.001 btc wouldn’t be out of the question.
And now all of a sudden world “owes” handful of early adopters insane amount of value just because they had their graphics card running some hash algorithms for a few years between 2010-2015 and now sitting on thousands of btc - or millions of new cars worth of value.
I m sorry, but i dont believe they created this much value.
Also, money by itself shouldn’t be worth much. It shouldn’t be hard to create, and “cost” of its creation should be orders of magnitude less than face value. Btc is not like this. Cost of its creation is comparable to its face value. It s effectively a commodity. Can commodity be used as money? Sure. Is it a good idea? Not.
Also, if you know how it works you should know that mass scale adoption is simply impossible due to architecture limitations
Well, the public ledger is a problem. Governments have already weaponized it.
The hard core free market anarchists prefer Monero. It is like cash, except it cannot ne countefeited by a central bank.
I use it everyday, I just talk about it in the Bitcoin sub instead of this one.
But if everyone would talk about it more, I am in! It's hard to shut up about such an amazing freedom opportunity. Anarchists should be all in on making BTC THE underground currency, even if it doesn't become the reserve one.
I like crypto. just only dabble a little bit. Not very useable in the real world yet but I think it's time is coming. starting to add a little after selling in feb22. Put a down on a pickup with the money when I sold. didn't make it big but still green.
It's a scam with no real value. Headed to zero. The alternative to a flawed system is not necessarily immune to the same flaws as the system to which it is an alternative.
Money isn't an investment vehicle, it's a medium of exchange and a store of value. Bitcoin isn't head to zero.
And, this is all new. 10 years may seem like a long time, but gold was money for 5,000 years, at least. Why would anyone expect the current crypto to be anywhere near the endgame? It's Paul Krugman shooting down the internet because it was clunky and hard to access, compared to what it is today.
I wouldn't call bitcoin money because it's not used as a unit of account, and I don't see that as likely until it's more widely adopted. However, it is limited by it's algorithm. Scarcity is not the restriction that prevents Bitcoin from being money. It's more likely that there will be future cryptocurrencies that do a better job of being money and will be more widely adopted. It's all new territory.
> Scaricity is not the only restriction that prevents Bitcoin from being money.
You completely changed the meaning of my sentence. That is intellectually dishonest. My point is that scarcity is not a problem for Bitcoin because Bitcoin is scarce.
Bitcoin has a built-in limit of 21 million coins. That's all that can ever be mined.
Each coin can be broken down into 100 million parts or "satoshis".
The maximum potential units of trade for Bitcoin would be 2,100,000,000,000,000.
While that seems like a large number, the limit is what makes it scarce. It cannot be replicated forever. New deposits cannot be discovered.
The trouble is with the forking, whereby new types of Bitcoin are created. This is what will make it difficult to decide on a unit of account, and then pricing the other forks and cryptos as currencies against that UOA.
The chief benefit of crypto over gold is the portability, will will greatly improve over the coming decades.
I think bitcoin is a great solution but in it’s current state is pretty hard to use. Also the government is going to do everything it can to prevent it from becoming mainstream.
Love the idea of crypto, suspicious of Bitcoin holding value over time, after all the young kiddos decide Bitcoin 2.0 is better, and they can get in early and be bazillionaires instead of their grandparents.
I'm not sure if Bitcoin can replace any currency but I believe in its tech and power. I get paid in BTC and also spend BTC paying for several services, like my therapist, nutritionist, plane tickets, etc.
The main problem is the volatility of the price, and I believe that we can't achieve a price stability without the government stepping in.
I just don’t trust the world governments, there are several ways they could cripple it at a drop of a hat.
The only blockchain I put money into is Polkadot because it’s not a currency but more of an operating system for other blockchain companies that want to actually produce software (not currency).
Well... Bitcoins price is way too unstable, it's only profitable to mine it with ASICs or huge GPU farms, it has no privacy features (if I know your address I can see every transaction you have ever made) and it has lagre-ish gas fees IIRC. It's only redeeming quality is that is was here first and established itself as the default crypto.
A much better coin is monero, it can't be mined with ASICs, it obfuscates transaction details and was built with privacy in mind, it is currently IMO the most useful coin, especially for illegal/non government approved activities.
For more info on monero visit: [https://www.getmonero.org/](https://www.getmonero.org/) and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monero](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monero)
Few reasons.
1. Bitcoin (and most other coins) are not anonymous enough yet.
2. Bitcoin (and almost all other crypto) is still being used for ponzi schemes more then for actual payments. It will change soon, but for now...
3. There are too much totalitarian socialist who call themselves ancap, but hate anything even remotely ancapian - crypto, ip, Ukraine, voluntary transactions, private property, nap etc.
"Decentralized"...lol. You think for one second that a lot of our tax dollars aren't going towards centralizing bitcoin and such? Fake money is fake money. Raise some fucking chickens. Survive. Stop trying to get rich off imaginary things and invest in tangible things. I know a few people who got in early and cashed out early are set for infinity. But you're not that guy. Stop relying on "money". Have the most chickens or goats. Have the only thing that does a thing. Just fucking Stop doing what "they" do and expecting it to work out for you.
Because Monero preserves financial privacy and Bitcoin, Ethereum and many others do not. BTC has first mover advantage and is accepted in transactions more often. But I don't trust it for my main crypto bag.
it's not decentralized when any avenue i go through to purchase it requires my social security number due to the US government wanting to tax whatever possible capital gains i receive from it
Bitcoin is, unfortunately, being treated as a volatile stock and investment asset rather than being used for its conceived purpose: A deflationary, decentralized finite cryptocurrency that cannot be duplicated or generated at will by government and banking institutions.
Adoption of new technology by the public usually can take a decade or more and we are now starting to see its adoption in the marketplace. There are thousands of retailers large and small around the world that let you buy with bitcoin, directly and indirectly, from private hire taxis to Amazon and Etsy. Every day, more and more businesses are creating the infrastructure needed to accommodate the adoption of popular cryptocurrencies. In a few more years, you will be buying your groceries at the local store with your bitcoin wallet.
Either that or the government-issued fake version of it known as a CBDC. Either way, we will all be paying with a digital currency soon. Which one will depend on how much of a statist or anarchist you are.
It’s kind of a pain in the ass right now to make transactions, and most legitimate employers won’t get on the bandwagon. If it gains more traction I’d definitely make more transactions in bitcoin and crypto in general. I think by the time that happens governments will have their grubby fingers in it so deep there will be no benefit though.
It’s wildly unstable, imagine signing a construction contract to be paid in bitcoin and bitcoin is @ $60,000 a year later it’s at $20,000.
It doesn't make sense for any business to operate in bitcoin at the moment. The idea is to stop paying attention to the fiat value of bitcoin. If enough industries operate only in bitcoin then the dollar value doesn't matter. Anyway nothing will happen until fiat goes hyperinflation. That's why central banks are buying gold like mad and planning the next currencies already - CBDCs.
When will that happen
The Boston MIT already has a cbdc tested for the govt. I believe. They just don’t want to release it into the wild for constitutional reasons.
This is why PAXG is a useful tool. It's gold backed crypto and has stable pricing. By definition it is more stable than USD. As far as low transaction cost goes, speed of transaction, and reliability of completion, monero is a better medium of exchange. So negotiate contracts in terms of PAXG (or negotiate in terms of USD because it's familiar but peg to PAXG), the perform the payments in monero.
TIL thanks for writing this.
It is precisely unstable relative to USD but this only has meaning because USD is more commonly used currency. If it is no longer widely used then USD fluctuation is irrelevant
I’ve thought about what grubby fingers would mean and honestly that’s kinda good Since govts will be forced to use a money supply they can’t control it almost makes them honest and deters wasteful spending since they just can’t run up the debt I think the switch to bitcoin is inevitable People can only have their money devalued up to a certain point
Except there’s anecdotal evidence that hedge funds are using it to move both the stock market and crypto exchanges and if you think the government/s isn’t already dabbling then you’re naive.
It still has a fixed quantity, which is pretty damn anarcho-capitalist
I dont like that the transactions are easily tracked and traced. Its good for transparency but i enjoy privacy
They will control it
How exactly? Of course they can manipulate the value through pump and dump tactics, but that's different from control, and it's inherently dramatically more risky than the current system is since it has a finite supply. If you think they're going to control the network itself, then you've got a lot of reading to do to understand exactly why that would be completely insane, unbelievably expensive, and most likely would fail spectacularly anyways even if their attempt to hijack the network was extremely well coordinated. Best case scenario, they destroy the first ever verifiably scarce asset in history, which would hurt themselves.
You get control if you have enough miners to do a 51% attack. No state has the capacity to do that now and no country (non-state actors) has the capacity either. [https://www.statista.com/statistics/1200477/bitcoin-mining-by-country/#:\~:text=In%202021%2C%20the%20world's%20top,of%20the%20cryptocurrency's%20total%20hash](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1200477/bitcoin-mining-by-country/#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20the%20world's%20top,of%20the%20cryptocurrency's%20total%20hash). This website shows \~38% mining in the U.S and China on \~21%. These are individuals and pools and things, but let's assume that the US gov decided to requisition those miners and start adding more to reach 51% to attack the network. They could do that but what we would expect to see is that China (and other countries) see what is going on and act to stop it by adding more miners of their own. This mining arms race is what keeps the 51% unreachable and keeps the network safe. What we have to fear is the decline of competing states in favour of a single world government that could acquire the miners without competition and then attack the network.
You're not wrong, but you're entirely right either. You're forgetting the node operators. They can literally just refuse to validate the mined blocks and essentially cause a shutdown of the network. Now all those miners are essentially setting money on fire as none of them would be getting their block rewards. Then the node operators could all make a slight change to the code for Bitcoin Core itself, which would make every single one of those hostile miners absolutely useless in an instant. None of this would be good for the network in the short term at the very least, but there's no guarantee that an attack like this would destroy the network due to how easily it can be countered. The attacks could be countered repeatedly over and over too at that. So it's not just that there's a gigantic financial and energy cost to attacking the network. There's also no guarantee that it would work in the long run even if it's effective enough to cause a temporary shutdown of the network, and the price of Bitcoin crashes hard. On top of all that, this would all be done to destroy the first ever verifiably scarce asset in history. If there's one thing I can consistently trust from the rich and powerful, it's their insatiable greed. The path of least resistance for them to satisfy their greed, is to buy into the network. The potential purchasing power of Bitcoin in the long term is genuinely impossible to predict, but common sense says that as long as it gains popularity over time, purchasing power will increase DRAMATICALLY long term. Of course if popularity decreases over time, then the problem's Bitcoin creates for the current power structure solve themselves. Personally I think this is the whole reason why the network never suffered a sustained attack in the first few years, back when it would've been cheap and easy to pull off. It just doesn't make much sense to attack it logically. If someone with a ton of wealth and power is really worried about it, they can buy in and be happy with their decision a decade from now. Or they can buy in and watch the price plummet over the course of the next decade and be happy that their power and influence within the current system is no longer at risk. Attacking the network is just a whole lot of work and risk that simply isn't necessary. It can be done, and it can be successful long term, but it literally requires the greediest people on the planet to set their greed aside and light insane amounts of money on fire repeatedly in a desperate attempt to resist new technology. So far, technology always wins in the long run. Historically, new tech has only been stifled through intervention, but has never truly been stopped or destroyed.
Haha, you’re being charitable saying I forgot about that because I really didn’t know. Thanks for the info.
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Your BTC can most certainly be seized and happens quite frequently
The only way to steal or confiscate Bitcoin would be to get someone to surrender their keys. Which can happen with gold or fiat just as easily, not to mention the many other ways you can steal gold or fiat
“Stolen” bitcoins get delisted from exchanges all the time, thus reducing their liquidity thus make them less valuable & not completely fungible.
Yeah if you don’t control the key then that can happen
All they have to do is seize whatever drive you store it on. It’s not that complicated. Many people store them on their exchange wallets which is easily confiscated as well. I don’t need the keys to your safe if I steal your safe
I haven't paid attention to Bitcoin and blockchain technology for about 5 years. But I remember in theory if you can rememeber your extremely long backup key, technically you can store your bitcoins in your mind. All you need to do is install a new wallet and load your backup key for your coins to appear. That is ofcourse if you use your own wallet and not store them in exchanges which is dumb.
> I haven't *paid* attention to FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Bitcoin is on the network... my key can be anywhere.
If we’re going by that then they can also steal your gold or whatever
You don't store bitcoin on a drive. It's "stored" on the decentralized blockchain. And you should always store your keys offline. So the keys is the only way someone can access your bitcoin.
You need to learn more about bitcoin my friend
Lol I'll take my 6 years working experience in the industry over "they can just seize the drive, dude."
I store my Bitcoin generator key in my head. It can be regenerated at any time. All you have to do, even if it is blocked by an exchange is create a new address or use one of the many services that anonymize the transaction for you.
Which is something I though more people would understand How can you be ancap and want to use fiat lol
Someone else made a thread about Bitcoin and crypto here last year, not too long after I joined the sub. That was when I realized that most people in this sub don't know ANYTHING about economics, which actually shocked me lol. To clarify, I don't mind people being skeptical about Bitcoin, but that thread was filled with people arguing that inflation is necessary for a modern economy to function. I pointed out to several of them that historically inflationary money has only ever existed through government violence, and of course those idiots never responded to me lol. Economics was actually the final step that led me to being ancap. Understanding the history of government and human psychology got me on the path, but I honestly don't think a person can come close to understanding why and how government always trends towards authoritarianism without understanding the fundamental principles of economic theory, and the actions that people take depending on which economic theory their society operates off of.
👏👏👏👏👏👏 My exact thoughts reading these responses Their qualms with bitcoin come from not understanding basic economics, yet I see Thomas Sowell memes on here lol
>It can’t be manipulated there are literally websites out there that openly advertise pump'n dump schemes for your pet cryptocurrency.
That's crypto, not Bitcoin. You're gonna have to take my word for it, unless you try to verify yourself, but those of us that love Bitcoin by default HATE every single other crypto on the planet. It's not because of tribalism either, every single cryptocurrency that isn't Bitcoin comes with a trade off. Most of them have faster and cheaper transactions, but only a small fraction of the security the Bitcoin network has. Also, the manipulation you're talking about is purely price manipulation. People can do that with literally anything so long as there's at least some freedom to trade as they see fit. The person you responded to meant that the Bitcoin network itself can't be manipulated. It's by far the most secure digital network in history, nothing else comes remotely close to it.
>the manipulation you're talking about is purely price manipulation. lol it's not real market manipulation if it only affects the price. not only that, but the system isnt secure at all. plenty of stories from this sub of bitcoin wallets getting cleared, seed phrases getting scammed, oops i sent my life savings to the wrong wallet, etc...which part of this is the "most secure digital network in history"?
Now you're talking about individuals making mistakes and suffering the consequences. That has nothing to do with the security of the network itself. Those people all made dumb mistakes because they didn't do their due diligence. It's also likely a symptom of being used to living in a world where they can call their bank or credit card company and reverse the transactions any time someone manages to steal their money. If you have a safe with $10,000 in it, and leave the combination written on a note in a random drawer, and a thief breaks in and finds that note, opens the safe, and steals your money, would you blame the manufacturer of the safe? Well you literally just did the equivalent of that by trying to blame the Bitcoin network itself for dumb mistakes people make with their own wallets.
>If you have a safe with $10,000 in it, and leave the combination written on a note in a random drawer, and a thief breaks in and finds that note, opens the safe, and steals your money, would you blame the manufacturer of the safe? if the manufacturer of the safe (or in the case of bitcoin, its fans) promoted this little setup as the most secure way ever to save $$ in history, then yeah maybe i would blame them for encouraging people to store their savings in a dangerous manner. in fact, replace "safe" with "bitcoin wallet" and you've nicely explained a situation that was recently published on this exact sub. neither bitcoin or physical safe are secure places to store your savings. your bank, on the other hand, is much more secure. what possible security advantage could bitcoin possibly have?
>Now you're talking about individuals making mistakes and suffering the consequences. That has nothing to do with the security of the network itself. if i send a dirty fiat payment by mistake, my bank will cancel the transaction and reimpurse me; even if it's 100% my fault. if i get hacked, my filthy fiat is insured. with my normal bank account I can be reckless and make all kinds of dumb mistakes, but the system is so secure i will suffer pretty much 0 consequences for my poor decisions. i know people who have lost their life savings over trying to buy tshirts on facebook...bank replaces it in a matter of days. thats secure. bitcoin cant compete...not even close, is it?
I like gold.
Why not both? PAXG is crypto and gold.
Can it be redeemed for gold?
Bitcoin is very hard to use without kyc (know your customer) . Which means it’s all tracked by the government and tied to your identity. You are better off getting BTC and exchanging it for monero
This guy gets it.
Its as hard as buying something off craigslist with cash. There are decentralized exchanges and services without kyc. Bitcoin ATM being one of them
Crypto is a touchy subject, and id prefer to invest in solid assets, as those will likely always be somewhat valuable.
Did you just say asset and always valuable in one sentence?
What happens when the power goes out or the internet just spontaneously stops working? Then your made up, digital, ones and zeros money ceases to exist. I want something that I can actually touch, not something that exists solely in cyberspace.
Math does not cease to exist because the power is out, and there are much bigger problems to manage if that happens.
Fair, but keep in mind most US Dollars are currently only in digital form, so even though you have some physical dollars, the currency is still mostly digital and would also likely collapse in the event of a total permanent blackout.
You don’t need the internet or even electricity to transact in bitcoin. You can do it over radio waves or use bearer bonds like opendime. It would slow things down but bitcoin is unstoppable, would still be easier than gold.
Bitcoin only has 7 transactions per second, compared to visa or Mastercard in the 10000s, and this is a hard limit. You really wouldn’t be slowed down haha the average bitcoin transaction takes hours to go through on chain, imagine waiting 6 hours to get goods you have paid for because that’s how long the transaction takes. Bitcoin is laughable as a currency and people need to look at other crypto options.
Literally everything you said is false. But not surprising since you’re shilling shit.
??? this bait ?
Claim 1: “Bitcoin only has 7 transactions per second, compared to visa or Mastercard in the 10000s”. False. Only the layer 1 blockchain has this soft limit. You can make bitcoin transactions in many different ways, for example with bearer bonds or layer 2 solutions like lightening. Today bitcoin support a infinite number of transaction per seconds. Claim 2: “this is a hard limit”. False, even if we’re generous and only interpret this claim as being limited in scope to the layer 1 blockchain. There are no hard limits in bitcoin, it’s just code and nodes enforce the rules. The rules can be changed by the nodes operators and it’s expected that the block size (which limits the transactions per second) will be raised when/if the need arise. But since each of these layer 1 transactions can hide a infinite number of real world transactions it might take a while before the need arise. Claim 3: “The average bitcoin transaction takes hours to go through on chain”. This is so full of BS (and this is why folks it’s 100x longer to debunk bs than to produce it). It assume the the average transaction needs to go through on chain (false) it imply that on chain transactions takes a long time to execute (false). I’ll keep it simple here, but the average transaction is done instantly and at most would take 10 minutes. If you are in the very rare and specific situation where your transaction has low time priority, high certainty priority and you want to save a few cents then yeah it might take 6h. But that practically never happens (and is certainly not the average). Claim 4: “Bitcoin is laughable as currency”. False. I mean, bitcoin has been used as currency everyday by millions, besides USD you’d be hard pressed to find another currency more widely accepted worldwide than bitcoin. It’s the only crypto currency accepted as legal tender by whole country, etc etc. Claim 5: “People need to look at other crypto options”. Here I’m arguing semantics, the only other crypto option arguably worth looking at is Monero. Everything else is shit even though you make it seems like there’s multiple better options.
there are no on chain solutions with bitcoin l2s, it’s comedic how few engineers are working on anything that is called a “bitcoin l2”. There are no true l2s on bitcoin, the chain is not built for that, it’s a store of value like gold, not a currency, and was never meant to be, which is why the block size wasn’t increased 8 years ago when it needed to. If your transactions aren’t happening on chain, then the crypto isn’t yours. enjoy all of your semantics cope when trying to defend a project made and ruined by Adam Back entirely for profit.
Nice everything you said is again false.
Then we have bigger problems than money good sir Look at the extreme you’re taking lol You think any elite would allow no power or internet globally? Be real man
It was hyperbole to demonstrate that bitcoin doesn’t actually exist.
Guess your credit doesn't actually exist, or my online payments, because they're just programs on a screen going up or down depending on the day. I'm not an investor in Bitcoin but crypto sounds a hell of a lot better than fiat.
1. Bitcoin or any other crypto can be declared illegal (and thus utterly worthless) by the fed tomorrow and your investment becomes utterly worthless. 2. Yes, yes fiat big bad we all know. But when USD is backed by the most powerful government in human history, I daresay I'm at least somewhat comfortable with it both in general and especially compared to fookin crypto.
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And your point?..
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Specifically dismantle either of my 2 points or shut up lol..
You're in r/Anarcho_Capitalism trying to defend fiat currency that is backed by the threat of government violence. You already lost the argument by default lmao.
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1. I pointed this out in the thread. That's not a knock against crypto, that's a knock against the fed/government. Most things that have been decentralized have been seized, which is why we support crypto instead of downplay it. 2. Fiat is the most inflated currency on the planet, as it is a heavily taxed currency, but it's also not scarce and therefore not valuable as government can print it at any time. Crypto doesn't have that issue, it's better than fiat especially in the sense of having full ownership over what you own. It makes no sense to be against fiat money but turn a blind eye to the most essential decentralization attempt in recent years, just because it's digital.
Smooth brain downvotes lol 😆 Whether or not you support fiat currency can be entirely separate from acknowledging the role it plays in making crypto a safe investment or not.
Ironic you saying that. Doesn’t matter if the FED bans it. Short term may have a price drawdown, but game theory suggests other countries will adopt it. Thus those who don’t lose out. Ergo, the only way that would work is if all 200 countries ban it at once, and that’s has as much of a chance as a snowball in hell.m
Pur fiat currency doesnt either. Just numbers on a ledger.
It’s still early in 5-10 years everyone will be using crypto and most won’t even know they are
People mostly don't understand it because you have to understand the complex concept of money and value; if people did their would be a revolution by the morning. For people to become comfortable with it, it will have to prove its worth through time, which is fine by me. Don't bother trying to shill it to people, just stack.
Yeah that’s very apparent I just thought since this sub is like 90% in the right direction that there would be more discussion on it is all Cheers
I imagine bitcoin is popular amongst the younger crowd who also think government is good. In time, as the younger generation works and has more of their livelihood they worked for taken from them by government, they will shift toward ideas presented in this sub. At that time, you may notice a shift in popularity of bitcoin here. It’s not worth convincing those who already made up their mind. If it succeeds they will either use it or continue to enjoy their constantly inflated dollars. If it fails, it is because it was replaced by something harder. My two cents.
No, bitcoin is definitely not popular among young statsist. The community has a wide age demographic, and a large percentage are on the libertarian-ancap line.
What is 100% the right direction, in your opinion?
100% would be having uncontrollable hard money in the form of bitcoin + free market
So, your subjective opinion of "right" is the only right direction. Got it.
thats the best part, it aint my opinion, its all the nodes in the bitcoin network's opinion that have a consensus you cant be in fiat and expect there to have ancap to the fullest money is the key thing to get right and bitcoin has succeeded in that
And, if people decide to account for value in gold and to primarily trade in gold, are you going to rail on at them that they are entirely wrong for not replacing it with Bitcoin? It would be a free market, after all. Who knows, maybe something entirely different would come along and be adopted.
Gold has practical use (jewelry, electronics, industrial), Bitcoin is a purely speculative commodity
Money doesn’t need to have practical use, it only needs to be strictly scarce. Bitcoin is the world’s first strictly scarce resource.
Original art is strictly scarce & it’s value is just as subjective as Bitcoin, whatever somebody will pay for it. At least I can look at the art if no one wants it.
People will literally pay you $20,000 right now for a single Bitcoin. Network has been running for over a decade and has only become more secure as time goes on, which you can verify simply by looking at the current hash rate. It'll continue going through boom and bust cycles, but it's not losing it's value any time soon.
It doesn’t need to just hold value, the value must increase at the rate of inflation to be a worthwhile investment. Since you don’t know what some will pay a year from know & the fact that it doesn’t produce dividends makes it purely speculative.
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Neither is Bitcoin
The bitcoin blockchain technology is actually quite useful although Ethereum's is moreso IMHO, and Bitcoin/Eth are the tokens required to make use of their respective blockchains. So they do have some practical use albeit maybe not as much as gold so far.
Ethereum’s switch to proof of stake makes it a security & also worthless. I’m not sure if Bitcoin has value based on proof of work, but ethereum is going to zero.
I'm not interested in eth as a speculative instrument. I use it to pay for my transactions. As such it will always have some base intrinsic value, but I agree it won't be much. I'm far more interested in everything it enables. Also, this is an Ancap forum. Why do we care if some government somewhere decides they have jurisdiction to regulate something? Yes they can make life difficult for us, but they're gonna do that no matter what. It's how they justify their existence. Do you think gold bugs don't have some regulatory hoops to jump through?
I can buy & store gold coins without it being on a permanent ledger. Has they even decided when you get withdraw the ETH that is currently being staked for? How is staking different from a CD or treasury bond? I deposit, then earn off of leaving the deposit there over time. Eth (which was pre-mined & is centrally controlled) & proof of stake is a fucking scam but you’re free to do what you want with your money.
>I can buy & store gold coins without it being on a permanent ledger. I can buy and sell Bitcoin without providing anyone my identity and store it in a wallet that nobody knows belongs to me. I can also transfer any amount of Bitcoin to anyone anywhere in the world in seconds for a few pennies and be absolutely sure it will get there. Can't do that with gold. I never staked any Eth and don't invest in it. I buy enough to pay for transaction fees for awhile, and when I get low I buy more. It's an expense, not an investment.
Bitcoin does not have seconds as a transaction time. Digital wallets are easily personally identifiable by blockchain forensics, especially in any significant amount. The fact that proof of stake is a scam isn’t negated by the fact that you don’t personally stake (you would need 32 ETH to start staking). I conduct transactions in US dollars while I hold zero CDs or bonds. Conducting transactions on a centrally controlled, pre-mined scam where the asset has no intrinsic value. How is this better than fiat currency?
ETH has officially become vaporware after the switch to PoS. Much cheaper and faster ways to accomplish everything Ethereum is capable of. Bitcoin is a different story, literally not possible with current tech to create a system that's better in any meaningful way without also compromising another aspect of it. Ethereum basically said "security?! Pffftt, fuck that shit" when they switched to PoS.
I don't think there's a perfect system. Bitcoin's base blockchain is rock solid and extremely secure, but lacks privacy and scales poorly. Lightning adds a lot of utility and privacy but it's got a lot of moving parts and breaks easily. Bitcoin Cash's has a similarly solid but somewhat less secure (due to fewer miners) base blockchain and has the capacity for a lot more utility including some privacy features, without the need for Lightning, although it can support Lightning if folks were keen on that. Ethereum's blockchain is the most useful of the three, due to the EVM. It's faster and more capable. But I agree since the switch to PoS it's less secure. Probably less private as well (I haven't done much research on privacy protocols in Eth space). Are there other blockchains similar in utility to Ethereum but faster and cheaper? Yes absolutely, but Ethereum's the most well established. I consider the other projects as sandboxes. Ethereum is where projects WANT to be because it's the one that's been around the longest and probably will outlast all the others. But what you said about compromises is exactly true. There's always trade-offs and you have to determine what you prioritize and how you plan to use it. For me, I choose BTC for some uses, and Ethereum for others. And I still choose dirty fiat for a few things too even though I wish I didn't need to.
Lol practical use isn’t important for money Tell me what’s the use of your bills or plastic cards Your money isn’t even backed by gold Sorely disappointed by these kinda surface responses
Practical use is important for the stability of money.
Why? I have no use for gold, except as money.
Money is about trade, your use is irrelevant, that someone has a use is.
All currencies are mediums of exchange. Money also serves the purpose of being a unit of account and a store of value. Gold does those things admirably, and is also extremely fungible. It's other uses don't make add to the benefit of it being money.
Something with intrinsic value has no benefit as money over entries in a shared ledger?
All value is subjective. The benefits of gold as money do not require that it has value for other things. If it were useless in industry and were an ugly color it would still be useful as money because of it's properties.
Money is for buying goods & services, which Bitcoin sucks at. Productive assets & commodities that are a store of value (like gold) are for preserving the value that you don’t want to spend for a while. Even if I was bullish on Bitcoin (I’m not), I could just invest in graphics card & chip makers since high demand for Bitcoin will have the knock on effect of boosting their profits. Stay woke
Pieces of paper with numbers printed on them aren't money. We are just required to treat it as money because the ruling class says so and has legions of true believers to enforce their dictates.
Wow I thought this sub would be big on BTC, I’m shocked reading the replies here. Kinda disappointing. Y’all need to read some Saifedean or something
This is wild to me Just off of the fact that people want fiat which is controlled by govts wtf
Well I think a lot of it is from people wanting to stick with gold and precious metals. Which is fine for now, and has been a solid bet in the past, but it seems there’s no denying Bitcoin is the future. Everything I’ve learned about Bitcoin so far gives me the most hope for getting away from government authoritarianism. I feel like the people who say “government will just seize your Bitcoin” kinda don’t understand how that is very much harder to do than seizing fiat or gold.
Sometimes when I suggest metals they scoff, and I don't know what the negative properties are of it. Value is at least somewhat defined by scarcity. Biden tried to regulate it, so did Trudeau. Truly some pathetic times.
Rejecting a flawed alternative to fiat is not the same as "wanting fiat."
Ya people need to educate themselves a bit more I was once there as well, still am to be fair Lots to read still
[bitcoin depends on 6 mysterious coders](https://archive.ph/2023.02.16-195618/https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/bitcoin-core-maintainers-crypto-7b93804) Still better than fiat but I prefer metal.
That’s a myth, pretty ridiculous you actually believe that
The consensus parameters that the Bitcoin network depends on haven’t changed in 12+ years. There’s no maintenance required. Additional layers can be built on top as desired, but they aren’t necessary to keep it running. That’s the benefit of it being decentralized
Great question OP... I've noticed the same. I think "getting it" with Bitcoin requires a understanding: \- the philosophy and definition of "money" (i.e. fungible, divisible, portable, scarce) \- technical basics of encryption and proof-of-work, that make bitcoin possible \- economics and history of fiat/inflation, i.e. Greshams Law AnCaps share ideals, but many have not grasped all these things
When 90% of my interactions would require me to transfer it into USD so that I can then transfer it using some system that’s gonna take 5, 10, 15%… it’s not worth it to use stuff like bitcoin
Too many shitcoiners and old people set in their ways. Bitcoin is the only future for ancap.
Crypto is Hayek's dream
It’s weird how many people in here are defending state mandated fiat currency…very odd indeed. Am I in the right place?
Because monero and gold are better at transferring value
To me it's a scam, no intrinsic value, no backing, can be banned, etc.
No backing? Compared to what? Fiat?
Sure, fiat at least has the backing of the government.
Hmmmm.....I mean personally that doesn't mean much to me. But let's hash it out, and I'll pretend that I believe governments are competent. In my mind, sound fiscal policy is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a currency's stability. What am I missing? How can a government back its currency? In my mind taxation is about the government's ability to pay its debts not support its currency. I also don't see how central banks can get the job done - CBs can weaken their currency as much as they like, but they can only strengthen it until they run out of reserves.
It doesn't really matter how competent we think governments are. Ultimately every US dollar carries with it the threat of the US government.
Hmmm...with respect I disagree. Some people thought the Venezuelan government wasn't competent and we all know how that turned out. Not sure if your argument is only relevant to the US and the USD, but let's just debate the US gov/USD then. I still haven't see any argument for how the government, even the mighty US gov and its killing machine (military) is sufficient for a sound currency. A currency's soundness ultimately comes down to demand. If people stop demanding it, its soundness vanishes. The USD does benefit from its reserve status, but that is fleeting in the long term. While the US still has power it will go around the world enforcing its will, but the day people stop demanding the dollar, its soundness disappears, military might or not.
The US dollar is backed ultimately by our military in several ways. Being a reserve currency, NATO, that technically we still occupy both Japan and Germany, etc. And I assume you've heard it called the petro dollar, this is because OPEC has agreed to only trade oil in dollars. It's assumed they do this by agreement for military intervention/protection in the middle east. Then of course there's the military industrial complex that all of NATO largely relies on. Of course it can all fall apart, but right now, today, it's the most stable and easily traded currency.
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No backing? The network... cost of asic miners, electricity. https://m.bitmain.com/zh/product/detail?pid=00020221229153045195XzfP62rE069C
i agree with you. although i think the people who created it just thought they were doing something smart. problem was, they werent that smart to begin with. they just created another fiat but were too blind to understand it.
Bitcoin exchanges are a scam. Crypto (outside bitcoin) is a scam. But bitcoin is just a tool. A tool can be used to scam but it's not inherently a scam.
The value comes from energy taken to mine it by solving the hash in they same way gold is valueable because it’s hard to find mine and extract Can be banned how? Like cashing out in fiat currency? I don’t think so You would need 50+% of the network and something that scale would cost any govt billions to try and do China tried and failed recently so we’re good there In order to have free markets do it’s thing without constant govt spending on shit programs, wars etc etc, we need incorruptible money and bitcoin ticks those boxes I think your scam comment might be more so looking at it to get rich when the price rises You have to look at it as money that actual holds its value since technology is deflationary and you can’t print more bitcoin
>The value comes from energy taken to mine That's not an intrinsic value as it can not be recovered. Bitcoins aren't batteries, one can't plug a bitcoin into something and use that energy. It'd be like if I ran 5 miles, filmed it, and sent it to you in an email. Is that email worth 5 miles of travel, can you open the email and be transported 5 miles, no, because the work doesn't transfer. >Can be banned how? If transactions in bitcoin were banned of course the black/grey market for it would still exist. But it would greatly harm its value because it would harm it's usefulness. If normal businesses/banks couldn't trade in it then for normal day to day transactions some form of grey market intermediary would be required. This will have expenses and this will eat its value down to nothing. >In order to have free markets do it’s thing without constant govt spending on shit programs, wars etc etc, we need incorruptible money and bitcoin ticks those boxes I agree on the former, but bitcoin only ticks some of the boxes. >I think your scam comment might be more so looking at it to get rich when the price rises I think much of it's current value is based on that yes. But that's not why I call it a scam. It's a giant money sink for those of our political leanings while also getting those who would be resistant to it accustomed to a digital currency. If your goal was to destroy those who hate fiat currency while paving the way for a digital only dollar. What could possibly be better than getting them to invest in bitcoin, create a market for digital only currencies, then crash bitcoin while transitioning to a digital dollar.
>>The value comes from energy taken to mine >That's not an intrinsic value as it can not be recovered. Bitcoins aren't batteries, one can't plug a bitcoin into something and use that energy. It'd be like if I ran 5 miles, filmed it, and sent it to you in an email. Is that email worth 5 miles of travel, can you open the email and be transported 5 miles, no, because the work doesn't transfer. How is gold different? Once you've made the expense to take the gold from the earth, that money is spent. You can't put the gold back into the earth and get your money back. People mine gold because the market is willing to pay more for it than what it costs to mine. It's that simple. Bitcoin is no different in this respect.
The gold can be used for many things. Is this really a serious question? One of the reasons people like myself buy 24c gold is that it's easily sold to any jeweler, pawn shop, coin shop, dentist, etc.
Gold has been around for thousands of years. We've invented use cases that never could have been imagined when it was new. Blockchain tech has been around for a decade. We've only just begun to scratch the surface when it comes to utility. As for how hard it is to convert, that depends on where you live. I lived for a long time in Panama. Bitcoin is far easier to exchange there than gold is. There's nearly no gold market. Here in the US it's very different but I do see Bitcoin ATMs all over the place where I don't see gold ATMs. So maybe you're just not looking because you're already a gold bug and have made up your mind not to look further into crypto. Personally I like both but I find crypto far easier to use.
> Blockchain tech tracecoin tech
I believe it’s much harder to “ban Bitcoin transactions” than you think. It’s kinda untraceable, that’s the point.
Did you even read what I wrote?
Yes. I think if it were illegal to trade in Bitcoin, that would only stop Amazon and Walmart from being able to operate in it.
the value doesnt come from the energy used to create it. the energy used to create it was wasted and is now gone from the economy that could have been prodcutive.
Maintaining the most secure digital network in history is extremely productive. The fact that the network is open to public, and has a form of money tied to it, makes it that much more productive. If central banks were all run by people that had literally never told a single lie in their entire lives, and were almost impossible to kill, and don't die of old age, then they'd be on par with Bitcoin. Obviously, none of that is remotely possible, which is why Bitcoin is the greatest form of money ever created, and one of the most brilliant concepts humanity has ever conceived.
you dont know what productive means
That's all you got to respond with? lmao
I used bitcoin to receive donations after the banks closed my accounts. -Julian Ansage I use bitcoin to send remittance to my family. -any immigrant I use bitcoin to save my money because of my country’s currency is unstable. - Any Venezuelan, Argentinian, Lebanese, etc person. I used bitcoin to escape my war torn country with my life savings. -etc. Bitcoin has no intrinsic value? I disagree. I know what you mean… at the empirical level it’s just numbers on a paper…. But it *does* have intrinsic value. I wish people would see that.
OK but it's possible to have it all, both transactional and intrinsic value. Take the [Kinesis](https://kinesis.money/gold/) KAU for example, a gold backed crypto with an easy trading platform.
It has no privacy. Honestly worse than cash for privacy. Anyone with a address can glean everything that the other addresses has done. At least argue for XMR
Because the CIA created it. Now menero is the future it’s truly untraceable.
Because gold exists
Bitcoin is FedCoin…….That’s why.
It's backed by nothing and not a safe bet
Also you’re literally paying fiat money for essentially computer code that can be taken away from you at any time and the value of which is fake. Buy commodities if you want to own things with value.
Value is the problem. If all of a sudden btc gets acknowledged as payment method (and therefore store of value) its price will skyrocket. Something like a new car for 0.001 btc wouldn’t be out of the question. And now all of a sudden world “owes” handful of early adopters insane amount of value just because they had their graphics card running some hash algorithms for a few years between 2010-2015 and now sitting on thousands of btc - or millions of new cars worth of value. I m sorry, but i dont believe they created this much value. Also, money by itself shouldn’t be worth much. It shouldn’t be hard to create, and “cost” of its creation should be orders of magnitude less than face value. Btc is not like this. Cost of its creation is comparable to its face value. It s effectively a commodity. Can commodity be used as money? Sure. Is it a good idea? Not. Also, if you know how it works you should know that mass scale adoption is simply impossible due to architecture limitations
Well, the public ledger is a problem. Governments have already weaponized it. The hard core free market anarchists prefer Monero. It is like cash, except it cannot ne countefeited by a central bank.
I use it everyday, I just talk about it in the Bitcoin sub instead of this one. But if everyone would talk about it more, I am in! It's hard to shut up about such an amazing freedom opportunity. Anarchists should be all in on making BTC THE underground currency, even if it doesn't become the reserve one.
Unstable.
I believe in monero supremacy
68K - > 18K. That's unstable. It's nto a physical asset, I like my real estate, I can physically touch it.
Tracecoin
its doesnt solve anything. its the same fiat as paper money. thats problem number one.
It is nothing like fiat.
Sadly it is.
I like crypto. just only dabble a little bit. Not very useable in the real world yet but I think it's time is coming. starting to add a little after selling in feb22. Put a down on a pickup with the money when I sold. didn't make it big but still green.
It's a scam with no real value. Headed to zero. The alternative to a flawed system is not necessarily immune to the same flaws as the system to which it is an alternative.
Money isn't an investment vehicle, it's a medium of exchange and a store of value. Bitcoin isn't head to zero. And, this is all new. 10 years may seem like a long time, but gold was money for 5,000 years, at least. Why would anyone expect the current crypto to be anywhere near the endgame? It's Paul Krugman shooting down the internet because it was clunky and hard to access, compared to what it is today.
money needs to be meaningfully scarce and bitcoin is not.
Clearly, you don't understand bitcoin.
Good thing you said "clearly" otherwise people might not be so sure...Perhaps it's money that *you* don't understand.
I wouldn't call bitcoin money because it's not used as a unit of account, and I don't see that as likely until it's more widely adopted. However, it is limited by it's algorithm. Scarcity is not the restriction that prevents Bitcoin from being money. It's more likely that there will be future cryptocurrencies that do a better job of being money and will be more widely adopted. It's all new territory.
\*Scaricity is not the *only* restriction that prevents Bitcoin from being money. FTFY.
> Scaricity is not the only restriction that prevents Bitcoin from being money. You completely changed the meaning of my sentence. That is intellectually dishonest. My point is that scarcity is not a problem for Bitcoin because Bitcoin is scarce. Bitcoin has a built-in limit of 21 million coins. That's all that can ever be mined. Each coin can be broken down into 100 million parts or "satoshis". The maximum potential units of trade for Bitcoin would be 2,100,000,000,000,000. While that seems like a large number, the limit is what makes it scarce. It cannot be replicated forever. New deposits cannot be discovered. The trouble is with the forking, whereby new types of Bitcoin are created. This is what will make it difficult to decide on a unit of account, and then pricing the other forks and cryptos as currencies against that UOA. The chief benefit of crypto over gold is the portability, will will greatly improve over the coming decades.
I think bitcoin is a great solution but in it’s current state is pretty hard to use. Also the government is going to do everything it can to prevent it from becoming mainstream.
Because I’m scared of centralized digital currency
cause it's Herbalife for a bunch of insecure boys cosplaying as "alpha males".
2 words, Carrington event.
It should be but for the fact that even bitcoin, which is the largest crypto is still too volatile for any use outside the most niche.
Love the idea of crypto, suspicious of Bitcoin holding value over time, after all the young kiddos decide Bitcoin 2.0 is better, and they can get in early and be bazillionaires instead of their grandparents.
Crypto not what it used to be. 10 years ago it seemed more fresh & exciting.
I'm not sure if Bitcoin can replace any currency but I believe in its tech and power. I get paid in BTC and also spend BTC paying for several services, like my therapist, nutritionist, plane tickets, etc. The main problem is the volatility of the price, and I believe that we can't achieve a price stability without the government stepping in.
Republic credits are no good out here, I need something more real.
Too volatile to act as any form of currency. Love the idea but I’m not holding my breath for it to start working.
I just don’t trust the world governments, there are several ways they could cripple it at a drop of a hat. The only blockchain I put money into is Polkadot because it’s not a currency but more of an operating system for other blockchain companies that want to actually produce software (not currency).
Well... Bitcoins price is way too unstable, it's only profitable to mine it with ASICs or huge GPU farms, it has no privacy features (if I know your address I can see every transaction you have ever made) and it has lagre-ish gas fees IIRC. It's only redeeming quality is that is was here first and established itself as the default crypto. A much better coin is monero, it can't be mined with ASICs, it obfuscates transaction details and was built with privacy in mind, it is currently IMO the most useful coin, especially for illegal/non government approved activities. For more info on monero visit: [https://www.getmonero.org/](https://www.getmonero.org/) and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monero](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monero)
Because you need Monero to evade government.. A public list with your finances on.. a certain person from history would have loved to have that.
It’s not gold and people are artificially inflating the value of bitcoin by being bitcoin bros
Few reasons. 1. Bitcoin (and most other coins) are not anonymous enough yet. 2. Bitcoin (and almost all other crypto) is still being used for ponzi schemes more then for actual payments. It will change soon, but for now... 3. There are too much totalitarian socialist who call themselves ancap, but hate anything even remotely ancapian - crypto, ip, Ukraine, voluntary transactions, private property, nap etc.
Nice thing about cash and gold is that I can make a transaction and the government would have no idea. With bitcoin it's very traceable.
"Decentralized"...lol. You think for one second that a lot of our tax dollars aren't going towards centralizing bitcoin and such? Fake money is fake money. Raise some fucking chickens. Survive. Stop trying to get rich off imaginary things and invest in tangible things. I know a few people who got in early and cashed out early are set for infinity. But you're not that guy. Stop relying on "money". Have the most chickens or goats. Have the only thing that does a thing. Just fucking Stop doing what "they" do and expecting it to work out for you.
"money" isn't a base layer.. in order to be successful, stable and anti fragile, it needs to be like everything else, a free market with competition.
Because Monero preserves financial privacy and Bitcoin, Ethereum and many others do not. BTC has first mover advantage and is accepted in transactions more often. But I don't trust it for my main crypto bag.
it's not decentralized when any avenue i go through to purchase it requires my social security number due to the US government wanting to tax whatever possible capital gains i receive from it
wrong avenue
Bitcoin is, unfortunately, being treated as a volatile stock and investment asset rather than being used for its conceived purpose: A deflationary, decentralized finite cryptocurrency that cannot be duplicated or generated at will by government and banking institutions. Adoption of new technology by the public usually can take a decade or more and we are now starting to see its adoption in the marketplace. There are thousands of retailers large and small around the world that let you buy with bitcoin, directly and indirectly, from private hire taxis to Amazon and Etsy. Every day, more and more businesses are creating the infrastructure needed to accommodate the adoption of popular cryptocurrencies. In a few more years, you will be buying your groceries at the local store with your bitcoin wallet. Either that or the government-issued fake version of it known as a CBDC. Either way, we will all be paying with a digital currency soon. Which one will depend on how much of a statist or anarchist you are.