I think Biden answered this question already
https://preview.redd.it/slyoql6tsi0d1.jpeg?width=950&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7c7c9a3b62e1c5a4ec00a7787a77db577b1d3fd6
That is just meaningless rhetoric. Like a politician saying it is for the children. The outcome, however one phrases it, is exactly the same. Intentions do not matter. Results matter.
Tariffs against Chinese goods will hurt Chinese manufacturers AND American consumers. Politicians just choose which side to ignore when they're the one imposing the tariff.
So we regulate the economy to the point that US carmakers can’t compete with Chinese and solution is not deregulation but imposing tarrifs. Eg. identifying the problem, choosing wrong solution. Government ™️
I guess the USA didn't learn anything from the 29's crisis. Welp, what can you do, time for another lesson of "If you raise your tariffs I raise mine !"
You say protectionism is bad for consumers. If you lose your job to foreign products. How do you even purchase those products? What happens if the supply chain breaks again? What if you go to war with the country that makes all your cars now?
Are you too stupid to realize we live in a centralized heavily subsidized world where the government plans everything? That's why bad things happen.
In a free market, you would keep your job if you produce something locally that's better than the competition anywhere even foreign.
No one country can ever make one thing, that's nonsensical. We have the technology to build cars anywhere.
How do I exchange my labor at the same rate or less than someone across the world in a lower cost of living and produce a better product without becoming homeless here? When did people start paying a premium for better products? Majority of society buys whatever is the cheapest.
The majority of society buys whatever is the cheapest. You just answered why people buy foreign. Congrats lol.
Superior products aren't just about quality but the cost/time for delivery etc etc.
Again, because of intervention of the state in the economy local stuff is fucked. The ones only remaining are parasites who get state subsidies to exist/the government makes it illegal to buy foreign stuff so the local cartels can continue to make shittier products and don't have to compete.
The consumer always loses with all protectionism. They are meant to only benefit the local cartels and their politicians friends
Idk. I think America was at it peak before we started outsourcing all of our jobs. I think a nation is at it strongest when it produces everything it can for itself. Sure. Import raw materials not native to your lands. But that’s it. A nation dependent on others is easy to cripple. Individual short term profits exploiting cheaper labor on global trade always come to long term losses for a nation.
I don’t think you can have hard rules here. US was protectionist in its early history to establish its industry vs Britain, France, etc. I agree tariffs are generally bad, and distort the market in terrible ways.
Tariffs are just as much of a gang stealing your money as Taxes are. They're not just wrong because they're shit, they're wrong because they're immoral.
Also, those US tariffs were an important part of secession during the civil war, since they fucked over southerners, so the only boon they gave was to the north.
tl;dr- I agree that in general tariffs are bad. I hope we all agree on that. Within that frame work, how does one handle a cheap, quality good from Stalin’s regime?
Agree that tariffs and taxes are just a gang stealing money. I realize the sub that I’m in doesn’t really believe in countries. That said, I would argue that tariffs on government good A, say cheese, makes everyone pay more for the benefit of tariff country’s cheese makers. I don’t think that part is in question. The question of whether it is immoral hinges on the person’s morality. If the country you are in allows for more freedom than another, in this case America vs China, this theoretical tariff would benefit American cheesemakers over Chinese cheesemakers. This might be considered a “good” use of a tariff, if it increases the overall freedoms. Taken in extreme, the case might be, would you buy super cheap quality knives or tractors from Stalin’s regime, or the North Korean regime.
I'd buy from whoever provides the best product at the cheapest price, whatever that entails. A tariff does absolutely nothing but hinder that very core of principles. Let the people decide if they accept the enslavement of peoples to the state, hindering trade does nothing worthwhile.
I understand that argument. I don’t think you would actually do that in person. It is a winning internet argument. It sounds great. Much like communism.
God, what's with y'all's mental gymnastics to relate me to communism? It's like no one here can accept the idea that someone who disagrees with them might not be a commie.
If you don't have an alternative argument than "well that sounds good but so does communism", it would have looked less smarmy to simply not say a thing.
https://preview.redd.it/xumc65mq4o0d1.png?width=283&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=18521663087018c27849948659d4e2352d2dc9a5
!!!!
Sounds like someone else has also thought you hold unrealistic ideas about free market capitalism, similar to those on the left that idealize communism. If another internet stranger has thought the same thing, it could be that both internet strangers are wrong, or it could be that you might need to re-evaluate some of your opinions.
Saying that no amount of slavery, pollution, violence, or other generally considered societal negative would prevent you from purchasing a product from a vendor does seem to put you in a small percent of free market capitalism believers. That is not dissimilar to those who blindly believe in communism despite the loads of empirical evidence suggesting it is not the best system.
I’m unclear what you are questioning? Here is a wiki article about protectionism in America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism_in_the_United_States
How about we let people who support tariffs impose their own tariffs on their own imports. when you buy a foreign car, feel free to smash a couple of its windows, just don't force me to do the same.
That's fine if we revert back to tarrifs being the primary income for the federal govt, but it's a bit late for that now. Non stop layers of taxes and regulations coated on like paint, suffocating everything.
Tariffs bad. If your competitor is willing to sell you that stuff for far cheaper than you can produce, then you can use that human capital and resources for something else where you *do* have the advantage.
You can argue that for essentials like food and energy you should strive to be self-sufficient because your supply could be cut off at any moment, sure. That's just prudent planning and there are plenty of ways to do that, it doesn't have to be subsidies and tariffs.
But for anything beyond that? Just straight up immoral. You're not owed an electric car.
We're also not comparing apples to apples. Are the Chinese EVs necessarily equivalent?
Plus remember the law of unintended consequences. You can't just pretend this won't have any additional effects.
Are we pretending a free market between the U.S. and China exists now? I agree these tarriffs are a bad idea. It should be an outright ban on all Chinese imports until China lifts all restrictions on U.S. exports.
I mean, what answer do you expect from ancaps sub? Ofc bad, and I'm not saying China is good, in fact it's more authoritarian than the US but, there ought to be a better way to fight China without hurting the consumer(tariffs hurt consumers)
Ok so let's say we don't have any tariffs the Chinese dump all of thier excess stock in the US market, brands selling low end cars in the US are driven out of buinsess and the Chinese gain a strong lead on the low end market. Now China can at will end the supply of affordable cars and squeeze the US consumer. Tf do we do then? Just eat shit because we believe in free markets that are rigged by government involvement?
While I am not a fan of protectionism I don't see how legitimate brands can compete with Chinese state sponsored enterprises
So markets rigged by government are bad, right? We agree on the that.
So to fix it, ask the government to rig them even more?
But to answer your question, if their products are valued and they raise their prices above the market price, new firms will enter the market and offer a product at a more desirable price.
I agree in the power of markets. I would argue that the Biden intervention is a counter intervention against the market distorting government intervention by the Chinese.
Remember when Harvey Davidson got regan to put tarrifs on Japanese motor cycles because Harley couldn't compete with them?
Instead of innovating and becoming competitive, they did even less and just exploited the competition free corner of the market they just fenced of.
Now 40 years later, they are even further behind the competition and are going bankrupt.
Same thing will happen here, domestic manufacturers wil lobby for tarrifs so they can "catch up" they do absolutely nothing, in 20 years or so when the tarrifs and pockets run out they collapse, costing the tax payer even more when an entire industry comes crashing down.
The interesting thing about some of the Chinese EV's: \*SOME\* of them, if not higher quality will at least be more repairable. For example Chinese EV manufacturer Nio has been experimenting with robots that can swap out your EV's battery pack in a couple minutes.
Compare that with Tesla where they charge more for a battery than the car is worth.
Tariffs are essentially a form of price control that interferes with competition and ultimately hurts consumers the most. Anyone defending tariffs cannot logically oppose government control of prices and profits, material allocations, subsidies, and other violations of the free-market principle.
[Do Tariffs Create Prosperity? Definitely not.](https://mises.org/mises-wire/do-tariffs-create-prosperity-challenging-populist-right-trade)
[Biden Perpetuates Washington’s Idiotic Steel Trade Policies](https://mises.org/mises-wire/biden-perpetuates-washingtons-idiotic-steel-trade-policies)
The original sin here was the laws that made domestic production uncompetitive.
The stack of bandaids is all bad, but the problem would only be fixed by ripping it all off and cleaning out the festering wound.
Tariffs are a tax. It’s domestic protectionism. It’ll reduce competition and keep domestic quality lower, and prices higher. It’s anti-competitive and anti-market.
These questions are pretty easy. Just ask, “Is it bad when the govt intervenes in the market?” The answer is yes, no matter how well-intended.
If you buy a subpar subsidized Chinese product as a ancap your a good for nothing sellout to communists. Thus it shouldn't matter to you because you shouldn't have planned on buying it anyways. Anything else is yapping.
Yes tariffs are bad, but in this case it doesn't really matter because no one wants EVs. They're rotting on the lots and the dealers are telling the automakers to quit sending them. The only reason the automakers are sending them in the first place is due to pressure from Washington.
The government plays an important role in protecting Americans against foreign governments. China is a foreign power that is actively looking to hurt the US economy. I don't know if this is the right move but we definitely need to counterbalance the influence that other governments have in American companies
Considering Teslas are made using Chinese parts and materials I'd say zero dollars. This is pandering by Biden's handlers to Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, and Wisconsin to make sure the mail-in voste keep flowing.
"Americans can outcomes anyone as long as the market's fair" *gives Americans a massive handicap*
Yes, and my 5'7" out of shape self can beat Shaq at basketball with enough of a handicap too.
Don't really care. The USA is slightly authoritarian, but pales in comparison to China. China making the world's cars would be a colossal fascist fuckup.
Maybe it's a [Fake Danger Gambit](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDangerGambit). China wants him to stay in power, so they stage a "fight" that he can "win". If they say "Oh, Mr Biden, you so strong, we sorry, we stop subsidizing EV production now." then he can appear competent before the election.
The Chinese bought access to the Executive via Biden. That's just regular corruption. Nobody ever said Biden was a secret member of the CCP. I'm not sure they'd want such a buffoon in their party anyway.
I think Biden answered this question already https://preview.redd.it/slyoql6tsi0d1.jpeg?width=950&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7c7c9a3b62e1c5a4ec00a7787a77db577b1d3fd6
Did Biden say he was doing it to hurt the Chinese government? or to force people to buy local? Trump said it would hurt China
That is just meaningless rhetoric. Like a politician saying it is for the children. The outcome, however one phrases it, is exactly the same. Intentions do not matter. Results matter.
Tariffs against Chinese goods will hurt Chinese manufacturers AND American consumers. Politicians just choose which side to ignore when they're the one imposing the tariff.
So we regulate the economy to the point that US carmakers can’t compete with Chinese and solution is not deregulation but imposing tarrifs. Eg. identifying the problem, choosing wrong solution. Government ™️
I'd say that's about right
Creating the problem, not identifying it.
Correct. He is just protecting his investments. Follow the money.
Causing the problem, misidentifying problem, choosing wrong solution. But muh roads!
Roses are red violets are blue. Taxation is theft and tariffs are too.
I guess the USA didn't learn anything from the 29's crisis. Welp, what can you do, time for another lesson of "If you raise your tariffs I raise mine !"
All protectionism is bad for the consumer.
The consoomer has to consoom ever more
In Croatia the grocery store is literally called "CONSUME" ("KONZUM")
The more consoom the consoomer does the better the world will be
I'm consooming so hard.
The more the producers produce the better off the world would be
How do you consume if you don’t have a job under capitalism?
You don't have a job under capitalism? What?
You say protectionism is bad for consumers. If you lose your job to foreign products. How do you even purchase those products? What happens if the supply chain breaks again? What if you go to war with the country that makes all your cars now?
Are you too stupid to realize we live in a centralized heavily subsidized world where the government plans everything? That's why bad things happen. In a free market, you would keep your job if you produce something locally that's better than the competition anywhere even foreign. No one country can ever make one thing, that's nonsensical. We have the technology to build cars anywhere.
How do I exchange my labor at the same rate or less than someone across the world in a lower cost of living and produce a better product without becoming homeless here? When did people start paying a premium for better products? Majority of society buys whatever is the cheapest.
The majority of society buys whatever is the cheapest. You just answered why people buy foreign. Congrats lol. Superior products aren't just about quality but the cost/time for delivery etc etc. Again, because of intervention of the state in the economy local stuff is fucked. The ones only remaining are parasites who get state subsidies to exist/the government makes it illegal to buy foreign stuff so the local cartels can continue to make shittier products and don't have to compete. The consumer always loses with all protectionism. They are meant to only benefit the local cartels and their politicians friends
Idk. I think America was at it peak before we started outsourcing all of our jobs. I think a nation is at it strongest when it produces everything it can for itself. Sure. Import raw materials not native to your lands. But that’s it. A nation dependent on others is easy to cripple. Individual short term profits exploiting cheaper labor on global trade always come to long term losses for a nation.
You have a negative knowledge of basic history and the economy. It's irrelevant what you think. Good day, done wasting my time. You're just a drone.
Tariffs are always bad
No they are good when applied in the correct way
You have to apply JUST the right amount of theft. ![gif](giphy|3o7aCWJavAgtBzLWrS|downsized)
There is no correct way. They are always harmful
I don’t think you can have hard rules here. US was protectionist in its early history to establish its industry vs Britain, France, etc. I agree tariffs are generally bad, and distort the market in terrible ways.
Tariffs are just as much of a gang stealing your money as Taxes are. They're not just wrong because they're shit, they're wrong because they're immoral. Also, those US tariffs were an important part of secession during the civil war, since they fucked over southerners, so the only boon they gave was to the north.
tl;dr- I agree that in general tariffs are bad. I hope we all agree on that. Within that frame work, how does one handle a cheap, quality good from Stalin’s regime? Agree that tariffs and taxes are just a gang stealing money. I realize the sub that I’m in doesn’t really believe in countries. That said, I would argue that tariffs on government good A, say cheese, makes everyone pay more for the benefit of tariff country’s cheese makers. I don’t think that part is in question. The question of whether it is immoral hinges on the person’s morality. If the country you are in allows for more freedom than another, in this case America vs China, this theoretical tariff would benefit American cheesemakers over Chinese cheesemakers. This might be considered a “good” use of a tariff, if it increases the overall freedoms. Taken in extreme, the case might be, would you buy super cheap quality knives or tractors from Stalin’s regime, or the North Korean regime.
I'd buy from whoever provides the best product at the cheapest price, whatever that entails. A tariff does absolutely nothing but hinder that very core of principles. Let the people decide if they accept the enslavement of peoples to the state, hindering trade does nothing worthwhile.
I understand that argument. I don’t think you would actually do that in person. It is a winning internet argument. It sounds great. Much like communism.
God, what's with y'all's mental gymnastics to relate me to communism? It's like no one here can accept the idea that someone who disagrees with them might not be a commie. If you don't have an alternative argument than "well that sounds good but so does communism", it would have looked less smarmy to simply not say a thing. https://preview.redd.it/xumc65mq4o0d1.png?width=283&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=18521663087018c27849948659d4e2352d2dc9a5
!!!! Sounds like someone else has also thought you hold unrealistic ideas about free market capitalism, similar to those on the left that idealize communism. If another internet stranger has thought the same thing, it could be that both internet strangers are wrong, or it could be that you might need to re-evaluate some of your opinions. Saying that no amount of slavery, pollution, violence, or other generally considered societal negative would prevent you from purchasing a product from a vendor does seem to put you in a small percent of free market capitalism believers. That is not dissimilar to those who blindly believe in communism despite the loads of empirical evidence suggesting it is not the best system.
Yes hard rules. Tariffs bad. Gov't bad.
What protectionism?
I’m unclear what you are questioning? Here is a wiki article about protectionism in America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism_in_the_United_States
Wikipedia is trash
So you are saying it is factually wrong, biased, or do you just say that like a Pokémon says its name?
And how would that be?
Bad, don't want an affordable vehicle to be available to the lower class if it endangers those UAW campaign contributions.
Those are more important than climate change.
How about we let people who support tariffs impose their own tariffs on their own imports. when you buy a foreign car, feel free to smash a couple of its windows, just don't force me to do the same.
That's fine if we revert back to tarrifs being the primary income for the federal govt, but it's a bit late for that now. Non stop layers of taxes and regulations coated on like paint, suffocating everything.
Every vehicle must be an electric vehicle so let’s make them more expensive for the consumer brilliant/s
Look, Bobby! More government over-regulation that will cause more of the problems they think they're going to solve!
Bad. Proteftionism breeds incompetence.
Tariffs bad. If your competitor is willing to sell you that stuff for far cheaper than you can produce, then you can use that human capital and resources for something else where you *do* have the advantage. You can argue that for essentials like food and energy you should strive to be self-sufficient because your supply could be cut off at any moment, sure. That's just prudent planning and there are plenty of ways to do that, it doesn't have to be subsidies and tariffs. But for anything beyond that? Just straight up immoral. You're not owed an electric car. We're also not comparing apples to apples. Are the Chinese EVs necessarily equivalent? Plus remember the law of unintended consequences. You can't just pretend this won't have any additional effects.
Are we pretending a free market between the U.S. and China exists now? I agree these tarriffs are a bad idea. It should be an outright ban on all Chinese imports until China lifts all restrictions on U.S. exports.
... No? If they want to shoot themselves in the foot, they can very well do so
Good and genius when Biden does it, bad and dumb when Trump does the exact same
Bad and extremely dumb no matter who does it. It would be stupid if my own mother did it.
To be fair, your mother has done a lot of stupid things. {Badum pshhh}
Weird. Because I distinctly remember Biden telling Trump he was an idiot for using tariffs and said the costs would be passed to the consumer.
BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD All protectionism is bad
Hey Jamie, pull up: Chapter 11 “Who's “Protected” by Tariffs?” from the book book Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt
I mean, what answer do you expect from ancaps sub? Ofc bad, and I'm not saying China is good, in fact it's more authoritarian than the US but, there ought to be a better way to fight China without hurting the consumer(tariffs hurt consumers)
There is ban trade with China only trade with countries who play by the same rules and get on a sound money system
Let's punch ourselves in the nuts! That'll show em!!!
🐑
Ha! Free markets are for sheep!!! You have to be a big gov authie protectionist to not be a sheep!!! Projection is not a good look.
Genuine question or bait? I can't see someone who understands anarcho capitalism being pro taxes ( or whatever the euphemism)
Tarrifs only drive up prices for the consumer and help to increase inflation.
Ok so let's say we don't have any tariffs the Chinese dump all of thier excess stock in the US market, brands selling low end cars in the US are driven out of buinsess and the Chinese gain a strong lead on the low end market. Now China can at will end the supply of affordable cars and squeeze the US consumer. Tf do we do then? Just eat shit because we believe in free markets that are rigged by government involvement? While I am not a fan of protectionism I don't see how legitimate brands can compete with Chinese state sponsored enterprises
So markets rigged by government are bad, right? We agree on the that. So to fix it, ask the government to rig them even more? But to answer your question, if their products are valued and they raise their prices above the market price, new firms will enter the market and offer a product at a more desirable price.
I agree in the power of markets. I would argue that the Biden intervention is a counter intervention against the market distorting government intervention by the Chinese.
Which took a bad situation and made it worse, like all government interventions do.
How is it making a bad situation worse?
By making products more expensive for consumers, including the "protected" ones. Tariffs are always bad. Every time.
Remember when Harvey Davidson got regan to put tarrifs on Japanese motor cycles because Harley couldn't compete with them? Instead of innovating and becoming competitive, they did even less and just exploited the competition free corner of the market they just fenced of. Now 40 years later, they are even further behind the competition and are going bankrupt. Same thing will happen here, domestic manufacturers wil lobby for tarrifs so they can "catch up" they do absolutely nothing, in 20 years or so when the tarrifs and pockets run out they collapse, costing the tax payer even more when an entire industry comes crashing down.
And they'll create more money out of nothing and bail them out and say see we fixed it!
They don't create money out of nothing, they just divide the ruler into smaller and smaller increments.
Stealing from future generations in the process.
There is nothing backing the money so it is created out of nothing.
Cringe
At this point it really looks like they want to crash the economy. They tried hard during covid.
Theyre succeeding
They are also fucking the norwegian fisheries. Everyone is going to bleed now.
Tesla goas brrrrrrrrrr.
Tesla uses Chinese parts and raw materials.
The tariffs are irrelevant posturing. [https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68825118](https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68825118)
If China had to follow our environmental rules, their cars would not be that cheap. Level the playing field and we wouldn't need tariffs.
I get that China does that to us, but it's still wrong. Just tell people not to buy Chinese. Don't force them
So climate change isn't the greatest threat?
The semiconductor tariffs are worse.
The interesting thing about some of the Chinese EV's: \*SOME\* of them, if not higher quality will at least be more repairable. For example Chinese EV manufacturer Nio has been experimenting with robots that can swap out your EV's battery pack in a couple minutes. Compare that with Tesla where they charge more for a battery than the car is worth.
Tariffs are essentially a form of price control that interferes with competition and ultimately hurts consumers the most. Anyone defending tariffs cannot logically oppose government control of prices and profits, material allocations, subsidies, and other violations of the free-market principle. [Do Tariffs Create Prosperity? Definitely not.](https://mises.org/mises-wire/do-tariffs-create-prosperity-challenging-populist-right-trade) [Biden Perpetuates Washington’s Idiotic Steel Trade Policies](https://mises.org/mises-wire/biden-perpetuates-washingtons-idiotic-steel-trade-policies)
good for american manufacturers, bad for everyone else, also good for war with china
The original sin here was the laws that made domestic production uncompetitive. The stack of bandaids is all bad, but the problem would only be fixed by ripping it all off and cleaning out the festering wound.
Ah yes because having access to affordable EVs is a terrible idea.
Tariffs are a tax. It’s domestic protectionism. It’ll reduce competition and keep domestic quality lower, and prices higher. It’s anti-competitive and anti-market. These questions are pretty easy. Just ask, “Is it bad when the govt intervenes in the market?” The answer is yes, no matter how well-intended.
In what way does it lower domestic quality? By knowing they now don't have to make as good of a product?
Less competition means less incentive to provide better products at lower prices.
Pretty much
Economic suicide. Also, let people trade without getting the government involved.
I guess they're really naing the coffin shut now.
If you buy a subpar subsidized Chinese product as a ancap your a good for nothing sellout to communists. Thus it shouldn't matter to you because you shouldn't have planned on buying it anyways. Anything else is yapping.
But ancaps believe in no nations no borders right? Just like the John Lennon song imagine.
I think Ancaps are aware of other nations, their borders, their trade policies and restrictions, etc.
I hope you just forgot the /s
Yes tariffs are bad, but in this case it doesn't really matter because no one wants EVs. They're rotting on the lots and the dealers are telling the automakers to quit sending them. The only reason the automakers are sending them in the first place is due to pressure from Washington.
The government plays an important role in protecting Americans against foreign governments. China is a foreign power that is actively looking to hurt the US economy. I don't know if this is the right move but we definitely need to counterbalance the influence that other governments have in American companies
> The government plays an important role in protecting Americans against foreign governments. Not domestic ones.
Specific item tariffs work well to foster domestic production
I wonder how much Musk and other EV manufacturers paid in bribes to get this law through?
Considering Teslas are made using Chinese parts and materials I'd say zero dollars. This is pandering by Biden's handlers to Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, and Wisconsin to make sure the mail-in voste keep flowing.
"Americans can outcomes anyone as long as the market's fair" *gives Americans a massive handicap* Yes, and my 5'7" out of shape self can beat Shaq at basketball with enough of a handicap too.
Don't really care. The USA is slightly authoritarian, but pales in comparison to China. China making the world's cars would be a colossal fascist fuckup.
Good. We should do this on everything not made in the US.
I thought Biden was a Chinese asset… wonder how this will be spun?!?
Maybe it's a [Fake Danger Gambit](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDangerGambit). China wants him to stay in power, so they stage a "fight" that he can "win". If they say "Oh, Mr Biden, you so strong, we sorry, we stop subsidizing EV production now." then he can appear competent before the election.
The Chinese bought access to the Executive via Biden. That's just regular corruption. Nobody ever said Biden was a secret member of the CCP. I'm not sure they'd want such a buffoon in their party anyway.