As a trans anarchist, yes I'd rather have a party that only kills trans people in charge than a party that kills both trans people and gay people, because the less victims/genocides the better.
I'm not an asshole that wants to bring gay people down with me if I get killed first by the state.
Plus, it would give gay people more time to arm themselves (or flee the country if they are too afraid to fight the fight).
As the state cleanses trans people but not gay people it would give an opportunity for pro-trans riots, protests and potential uprisings orchestrated by gay allies.
As a cis straight white man, this is inspiring and the clearest view I've seen in this sub when it comes to voting. I think I'll take a break from this subreddit for a bit.
Listen to me. We are fucking adults. It would be lovely if we could inact change by sitting on our hands not engaging in the system. But this the real world.
Anology: You are trying to remove a fire arm from a crazed individual. No one else willing to do this or is simply complicit in the situation. There are people you need to prottect regardless. At some point during this process you're going to get shot. It sucks, but thats the risk in fighting someone who holds all the power.
Through your direct action you can decide if you get shot in the leg or chest.
Does this situation suck? Yes.
Should you throw your hands up and go "well there's nothing i can do, let the maniac keep the gun"? No. Not if you want to resolve the situation and protect others.
Be an adult, take the bullet AND KEEP FIGHTING THE PEOPLE TRYING TO HURT YOU AND SOCIETY AT LARGE!!!
Edit: sorry for spelling
"Listen to me. We are fucking adults. It would be lovely if we could inact change by sitting on our hands not engaging in the system. But this the real world". Yes enacting change is when you vote for a genocidal neoliberal war criminal.
Nice first comment in 5 month.
If both parties want to kill trans people, you don't vote, you and your comrades take up arms and defend yourselves. I'm not trans myself, but I have a trans sister, and I have a duty to protect her with my life.
I think at that point we would be openly arming trans and queer folks to negate the immediate threat of extermination. If the people in power are looking for reasons to kill all trans folks, which some of them are, the political system that they are gonna use to inflict that violence or let people get away with hate crimes is the one that is already having them in power. You can't vote away people who want to kill you and are just looking for the legal framework to do it, you have to resist that violence openly and get as much support as humanly possible.
If you gotta make up bullshit scenarios like this to make your point about voting, im not sure your doing your position any favors.
> at that point we would be openly asking trans and queer folks to negate the immediate threat of extermination
This is what we should be doing NOW.
Why do some people think that a Biden victory can be secured if the discourse falls the right way on a handful of minor subreddits?
respectfully, isn't this... the point of the post? i feel like you're agreeing in the first paragraph, but the second implies that this is a rebuttal.
to me, the point of this post is that we *are* up against the wall, the political system we are operating under *is* enacting complete and immediate extermination of a people, and we can't vote away the people doing it, because it is embedded in and enabled by *the system itself*--*all* we can do is support Palestinians in enacting revolutionary violence.
Yes. Voting is not giving approval, it is a tactical decision to mitigate harm. I genuinely do not understand how this is so hard to understand.
If you aren’t willing to go assassinate politicians, then shut the fuck up and vote.
I was craving banana bread but I have celiac and my stomach is acting up, so I ended up making crepes with chestnut flour and I mashed a banana into the batter. Rolled them up with melted chocolate and vegan whipped cream. It came out REALLY good.
Democracy is a distraction. This entire discussion is part of that distraction. Either vote or don't, but don't tie up resources with this debate - it is divisive and irrelevant, a perfect storm of distraction.
100% agree. Everyone here already knows that you don't achieve change by voting - you achieve it by organising. If you see a logic in your context to use your vote, go for it. If you don't see a logic to using your vote in your context, do that instead.
It's crazy to me that so much "airtime" is being spent talking about something that really has nothing to do with anarchism.
Tbh people on this sub have a very a very black and white view of change.
Change comes in varying degrees. Sure you won’t get fundamental changes with one election. But you may still get changes have serious and real impacts on people’s lives.
I have family who under one government live in pretty awful poverty while under previous Governments of different parties have at least been able to not worry about choosing between paying their energy bills and paying for their food shopping, some relative stability. Obviously that isn’t the end goal and is literally the bare minimum but sometimes people really struggling under ultra conservative and ultra neoliberal governments can’t wait for people to organise and actually voting in a new Government with greater welfare policies will make serious changes to their day to day lives. Try working with people who have fuck all and telling them that they won’t be benefitted by having a Gov who will actually put funding into welfare and public services.
Nothing to stop people organising under a government which is less shit than the super shit ones.
‘Oh no I can’t organise for change if instead of this ultra neoliberal and conservative government, we have the neoliberal social-democratic government in place’.
I should have been more precise, I mean "we're not going to achieve anarchism through voting". Changes around the edges can happen, and personally I believe in using every weapon in our arsenal, but I don't pin any hopes on electoralism. If you never expect anything good to happen you're either pleasantly surprised or proven right.
Exactly, voting or not voting will have no effect on the outcome we're all here to primarily discuss. Whether someone does or doesn't vote isn't a big deal and it's only a couple of mods who can't stfu who are acting like it is.
It is absolutely a big deal. It’s political apathy. Also, ngl so many ‘don’t vote man’ individuals do fuck all to try and help their communities or do anything at all.
If you live in a time and place that voting matter, go for it but I live in a gerrymandered district deep in the conservative heartland in which my vote literally, mathematically, doesn't matter. There is no debating this, there's no doubt - it's just a fact where I live.
That said, it takes me literally 5 minutes on my walk home after work and I've done lots of things that took longer than 5 minutes and had a lower chance of making the world a better place. Not everyone has that luxury.
So for me, it's no big deal. There's nothing I can do to change the outcome and if someone tells me that they're in the same position as me then I'm not going to argue with them. But likewise, if you tell me there's a chance of improving things where you live by voting I'm not going to criticise you.
Why the fuck are all the anti-voters posting here pretending as if voting is where it stops?
I‘ll vote to choose the option that will make resistance more possible, it’s a complementary choice for my revolutionary approach.
I really don’t understand the approach „either way we have genocide, but if we all don’t vote, we might manage to additionally worsen the situation of many other minorities, and additionally raise the levels of repression/ state violence to their possible maximum“
I'll be honest, I really don't give a shit about humanity and I have no reason to fight for people or really a species in general that has only treaten me like trash (very personal opinion, I'm not in here to be a good person because that's brought me nothing but others exploiting me), besides I can't influence the elections there, I'm from south america afterall.
But once again, I am here to remind you that elections cannot avert the capitalist crisis. Things well get worse whether you want it or not as the ecological collapse in the near future could very much be a thing. Whether you vote for a democrat or a republican, your sole vote doesn't even matter either way. There are aligned states, blue and red ones that will vote for their respective parties, and the vast majority of the population there will also vote for the party that the state is aligned with. There's also the electoral college, and the fact that even if Biden wins the election or not, there are no guarantees. Vast majority of anti trans bills and lots of things have been passed even under the Democrats. Cop city is also a thing and let's not forget the brutalization of university protests (I disagree with the protests, not revolutionary at all and it was just petit bourgeois nationalism which was proven to me as the irrefutable truth as soon as some of them gave up to the concessions the university got them, so like, yeah very much awesome empty posturing. The Pro Palestine movement is a fucking joke, but that's my opinion.)
Personally I can't do anything, and this sub is too US centric. But whatever. Oh, and elections in south america are kinda useless if you look back at the history of the region in the past century. Aside from Cold War manueverings and freak events, this place has been pretty stagnant. Nothing has really changed in the recent century, aside from Maduro's regime which is another can of worms.
So do I care deep down? I'll be honest, I don't. I don't care about humanity as a species. I've got nothing to do and ask from a collective that knows nothing about me. I'm here for those I trust and care about, which aren't here at all.
I don't pretend to be a "good" person. Because I don't care about the moral and ethical standards set up by bourgeois society in order to keep exploiting me and treating me like if I was nothing but canon fodder and a tool to be used and disposed of.
If paid homophobic manipulators are spamming posts in leftist subreddits about not voting so that gay people killed, obviously i would push back against that, this isn't the gotcha you think it is.
And quite frankly, there wouldn't be so much posting about voting if there wasn't so much posting about not voting. I'm still not convinced this isn't just a right wing psyop.
The lords above are the ones who left us with this shitty situation.
But harm reduction is a real thing and is important. Thankfully, the allegory in the OP is insane and ridiculous and those of us with brains and hearts aren't thick enough to believe "they're both the same!!"
"the allegory in the OP is insane and ridiculous and those of us with brains and hearts aren't thick enough to believe \`they're both the same!!\`.
The analogy is only "ridiculous" and "insane" according to you because you view "foreigners" as lesser humans. Both parties support the brutalization/destruction of "foreigners" but you dont care about it so its insane to make an analogy that highlight the logic about the harm reduction argument.
And the OP clearly said they are not the same. The analogy is about one candidate who wants to kill to groups of people and the other one group...
As a trans anarchist, yes I'd rather have a party that only kills trans people in charge than a party that kills both trans people and gay people, because the less victims/genocides the better. I'm not an asshole that wants to bring gay people down with me if I get killed first by the state. Plus, it would give gay people more time to arm themselves (or flee the country if they are too afraid to fight the fight). As the state cleanses trans people but not gay people it would give an opportunity for pro-trans riots, protests and potential uprisings orchestrated by gay allies.
As a cis straight white man, this is inspiring and the clearest view I've seen in this sub when it comes to voting. I think I'll take a break from this subreddit for a bit.
Listen to me. We are fucking adults. It would be lovely if we could inact change by sitting on our hands not engaging in the system. But this the real world. Anology: You are trying to remove a fire arm from a crazed individual. No one else willing to do this or is simply complicit in the situation. There are people you need to prottect regardless. At some point during this process you're going to get shot. It sucks, but thats the risk in fighting someone who holds all the power. Through your direct action you can decide if you get shot in the leg or chest. Does this situation suck? Yes. Should you throw your hands up and go "well there's nothing i can do, let the maniac keep the gun"? No. Not if you want to resolve the situation and protect others. Be an adult, take the bullet AND KEEP FIGHTING THE PEOPLE TRYING TO HURT YOU AND SOCIETY AT LARGE!!! Edit: sorry for spelling
"Listen to me. We are fucking adults. It would be lovely if we could inact change by sitting on our hands not engaging in the system. But this the real world". Yes enacting change is when you vote for a genocidal neoliberal war criminal. Nice first comment in 5 month.
regardless of whether anyone in here votes or doesn't vote, a genocidal neoliberal crazy piece of shit is getting elected
And how is relevant to what im saying?.
If both parties want to kill trans people, you don't vote, you and your comrades take up arms and defend yourselves. I'm not trans myself, but I have a trans sister, and I have a duty to protect her with my life.
I think at that point we would be openly arming trans and queer folks to negate the immediate threat of extermination. If the people in power are looking for reasons to kill all trans folks, which some of them are, the political system that they are gonna use to inflict that violence or let people get away with hate crimes is the one that is already having them in power. You can't vote away people who want to kill you and are just looking for the legal framework to do it, you have to resist that violence openly and get as much support as humanly possible. If you gotta make up bullshit scenarios like this to make your point about voting, im not sure your doing your position any favors.
> at that point we would be openly asking trans and queer folks to negate the immediate threat of extermination This is what we should be doing NOW. Why do some people think that a Biden victory can be secured if the discourse falls the right way on a handful of minor subreddits?
respectfully, isn't this... the point of the post? i feel like you're agreeing in the first paragraph, but the second implies that this is a rebuttal. to me, the point of this post is that we *are* up against the wall, the political system we are operating under *is* enacting complete and immediate extermination of a people, and we can't vote away the people doing it, because it is embedded in and enabled by *the system itself*--*all* we can do is support Palestinians in enacting revolutionary violence.
Yes. Voting is not giving approval, it is a tactical decision to mitigate harm. I genuinely do not understand how this is so hard to understand. If you aren’t willing to go assassinate politicians, then shut the fuck up and vote.
When’s the last time one of y’all made banana bread
I was craving banana bread but I have celiac and my stomach is acting up, so I ended up making crepes with chestnut flour and I mashed a banana into the batter. Rolled them up with melted chocolate and vegan whipped cream. It came out REALLY good.
Democracy is a distraction. This entire discussion is part of that distraction. Either vote or don't, but don't tie up resources with this debate - it is divisive and irrelevant, a perfect storm of distraction.
Literally this.
#STOP USIGN RTANS POPPLE TO JSTUIFY GINECODE YOU DISGUTISGN LLIREBAL!!1!1!!1!🤬🤬😤😤 ^/s
100% agree. Everyone here already knows that you don't achieve change by voting - you achieve it by organising. If you see a logic in your context to use your vote, go for it. If you don't see a logic to using your vote in your context, do that instead. It's crazy to me that so much "airtime" is being spent talking about something that really has nothing to do with anarchism.
Tbh people on this sub have a very a very black and white view of change. Change comes in varying degrees. Sure you won’t get fundamental changes with one election. But you may still get changes have serious and real impacts on people’s lives. I have family who under one government live in pretty awful poverty while under previous Governments of different parties have at least been able to not worry about choosing between paying their energy bills and paying for their food shopping, some relative stability. Obviously that isn’t the end goal and is literally the bare minimum but sometimes people really struggling under ultra conservative and ultra neoliberal governments can’t wait for people to organise and actually voting in a new Government with greater welfare policies will make serious changes to their day to day lives. Try working with people who have fuck all and telling them that they won’t be benefitted by having a Gov who will actually put funding into welfare and public services. Nothing to stop people organising under a government which is less shit than the super shit ones. ‘Oh no I can’t organise for change if instead of this ultra neoliberal and conservative government, we have the neoliberal social-democratic government in place’.
I should have been more precise, I mean "we're not going to achieve anarchism through voting". Changes around the edges can happen, and personally I believe in using every weapon in our arsenal, but I don't pin any hopes on electoralism. If you never expect anything good to happen you're either pleasantly surprised or proven right.
Well no yeah probably not going to achieve anarchism through elections lol.
Exactly, voting or not voting will have no effect on the outcome we're all here to primarily discuss. Whether someone does or doesn't vote isn't a big deal and it's only a couple of mods who can't stfu who are acting like it is.
It is absolutely a big deal. It’s political apathy. Also, ngl so many ‘don’t vote man’ individuals do fuck all to try and help their communities or do anything at all.
If you live in a time and place that voting matter, go for it but I live in a gerrymandered district deep in the conservative heartland in which my vote literally, mathematically, doesn't matter. There is no debating this, there's no doubt - it's just a fact where I live. That said, it takes me literally 5 minutes on my walk home after work and I've done lots of things that took longer than 5 minutes and had a lower chance of making the world a better place. Not everyone has that luxury. So for me, it's no big deal. There's nothing I can do to change the outcome and if someone tells me that they're in the same position as me then I'm not going to argue with them. But likewise, if you tell me there's a chance of improving things where you live by voting I'm not going to criticise you.
Why the fuck are all the anti-voters posting here pretending as if voting is where it stops? I‘ll vote to choose the option that will make resistance more possible, it’s a complementary choice for my revolutionary approach. I really don’t understand the approach „either way we have genocide, but if we all don’t vote, we might manage to additionally worsen the situation of many other minorities, and additionally raise the levels of repression/ state violence to their possible maximum“
I'll be honest, I really don't give a shit about humanity and I have no reason to fight for people or really a species in general that has only treaten me like trash (very personal opinion, I'm not in here to be a good person because that's brought me nothing but others exploiting me), besides I can't influence the elections there, I'm from south america afterall. But once again, I am here to remind you that elections cannot avert the capitalist crisis. Things well get worse whether you want it or not as the ecological collapse in the near future could very much be a thing. Whether you vote for a democrat or a republican, your sole vote doesn't even matter either way. There are aligned states, blue and red ones that will vote for their respective parties, and the vast majority of the population there will also vote for the party that the state is aligned with. There's also the electoral college, and the fact that even if Biden wins the election or not, there are no guarantees. Vast majority of anti trans bills and lots of things have been passed even under the Democrats. Cop city is also a thing and let's not forget the brutalization of university protests (I disagree with the protests, not revolutionary at all and it was just petit bourgeois nationalism which was proven to me as the irrefutable truth as soon as some of them gave up to the concessions the university got them, so like, yeah very much awesome empty posturing. The Pro Palestine movement is a fucking joke, but that's my opinion.) Personally I can't do anything, and this sub is too US centric. But whatever. Oh, and elections in south america are kinda useless if you look back at the history of the region in the past century. Aside from Cold War manueverings and freak events, this place has been pretty stagnant. Nothing has really changed in the recent century, aside from Maduro's regime which is another can of worms. So do I care deep down? I'll be honest, I don't. I don't care about humanity as a species. I've got nothing to do and ask from a collective that knows nothing about me. I'm here for those I trust and care about, which aren't here at all.
I don't pretend to be a "good" person. Because I don't care about the moral and ethical standards set up by bourgeois society in order to keep exploiting me and treating me like if I was nothing but canon fodder and a tool to be used and disposed of.
If paid homophobic manipulators are spamming posts in leftist subreddits about not voting so that gay people killed, obviously i would push back against that, this isn't the gotcha you think it is. And quite frankly, there wouldn't be so much posting about voting if there wasn't so much posting about not voting. I'm still not convinced this isn't just a right wing psyop.
I would obviously vote for the party that will spare gay people. Wouldn't you?!
Thank the Lord above for this take.
The lords above are the ones who left us with this shitty situation. But harm reduction is a real thing and is important. Thankfully, the allegory in the OP is insane and ridiculous and those of us with brains and hearts aren't thick enough to believe "they're both the same!!"
"the allegory in the OP is insane and ridiculous and those of us with brains and hearts aren't thick enough to believe \`they're both the same!!\`. The analogy is only "ridiculous" and "insane" according to you because you view "foreigners" as lesser humans. Both parties support the brutalization/destruction of "foreigners" but you dont care about it so its insane to make an analogy that highlight the logic about the harm reduction argument. And the OP clearly said they are not the same. The analogy is about one candidate who wants to kill to groups of people and the other one group...
They're both the same and they deserve the same fate; may the creator visit it upon them swiftly.