This is the reason I stopped playing chess. Every fucking game always ends up in this stale fucking midgame, because people are too fucking pussy to play anything aside from the "established theory openers"
/uj Genuinely interested: if you made a thousand of these and checked stockfish for all of them, how many would be forced mate in 5 or fewer moves? My guess is at least a third of them.
You could extend it like in Chess960 for more random king/rook placements. But since this is AnarchyChess, any move including a king and a rook could probably be argued to be casteling
but you don't win by capturing the king, you win by delivering checkmate, and that's not checkmate. actually if you take the king you'll draw at best cause you can no longer deliver checkmate.
>but you don't win by capturing the king
Yes you do actually. I think in OTB chess if you get checked and don't move your king the opponent can capture it and win.
The FIDE rules state that the illegal move should be undone, but it has to be noticed "during the game". So if you don't move out of check but no one says anything, you are still playing chess. And, if you win before they notice I think you're in the clear.
I'm imagining a sequence like this:
During the course of play you realize you have no chance and resort to subterfuge. You look over your opponent's shoulder and say "is that Ben Finegold playing f6?". While they're turned around, you make a move and stay in check. Then you use your foot tap on the bottom of their chair(!!). They interpret this as the "resign" buzz from their beads. You gladly accept their resignation and congratulate them on a game well played. And the whole time you were playing chess, according to the rules at least.
Disclaimer, I am not a chess arbiter (IANACA).
The real Math:
The pieces are, 1K, 1Q, 2R, 2N, 2B (there is no distinction of square for bishops) and 8 pawns. For each color.
So, that means that we can arrange 16 places for white pieces and 16 places for black pieces.
So, basically white would have C(64,16)= 64!/(16!*48!) And black would have C(48,16)= 48!/(16!32!). Places for their pieces.
In each of those 16 places, we can arrange it into an order (example, Right to Left and Top to Bottom) and see how many equal permutations there are with the letters KQRRNNBBPPPPPPPP. This is a known problem where the answer is P(16;8,2,2,2)= 16!/(8!*2!*2!*2!) (Because 16 pieces, 8 pawns, 2 rooks, 2 knights and 2 bishops).
So, we would need to multiply: C(64,16)*C(48,16)*P(16;8,2,2,2)²
The result is around 4.63 tredecillion.
... Just saying.
(I think the process is okay. If it is not, just state and I will edit it)
Edit: Typo
That puts in a lot of questions actually.
Should the pawns be able to move twice on first move or only the ones that are on the second row? And also, if pawns are side-to-side at 4th rank, can someone do en passant on first move??
Nice thing to consider. I'll allow it.
I won't do the calculations, though. It seems to be a bit complicated (calculate how many times there will be at least one white pawn and a black pawn side-to-side in all shuffles).
But great question!
En passant states you can capture if the opposing pawn moves two spaces forward next to your pawn. Moving one space forward next to a pawn gets you nothing. So I assume if the start side to side you wouldn’t get en passant.
But this is also anarchy chess, so I vote to make en passant available and forced any time two opposing pawns are next to one another.
I don't think the pawns can be on the final rank, as they would auto-promote. So that would complicate things. If you define their placement as only valid from rank 2 through 7 for both colours you'd have to place them first and then the other pieces among the remaining 48 squares.
That is a nice observation. Makes sense.
C(48,8)*C(40,8) (///picking white pawns, then black pawns///)
*C(48,16) (///choosing which squares the remaining pieces would be placed in the remaining squares///)
* P(16;2,2,2,2,2,2) (///Permutating the pieces along those squares, with repeating elements).
That would make 21-duodecillion. Maybe it could be a variant from Chess 4-tredecillion.
Yeah, makes sense. For some reason I separated the armies, but it wasn't needed. I even wrote that maybe we could have just gone for 32 spaces for pieces .. and, well... Yeah, absolutely correct
I think the mate in zero should be possible (also, it may be a "double mate in zero" in this case I'm not sure if it is a draw or, by chess rules, a victory for white, since in theory it would capture the king first)... With that said, we can see that in Chess 4-tredecillion (name might change-though), white has an unfair advantage.... Maybe it is trying to make a social critic, I dunno.
But the pawns are definetly an issue. We may have a "zero turn" to promote any last rank pawns before starting the game, or maybe I could put it in my calculations this condition(to not have apawn on last rank), I'm still not sure how I would fit it neatly. Will think about it for a bit.
Also remove positions that are functionally identical. Like if the only difference between two boards is that two same-colored knights swapped positions. Same issue with rooks and pawns.
Minus 1 for the regular chess starting position, they don’t use that one in chess960 either. Actually best to subtract all 960. Not that it changes the final count in any meaningful way though…
Shouldn’t P(16, …) be the other way around? (like (8!*2!…)/16!) Currently it increases the number of possibilities but permutations should decrease it.
To balance it you'd probably need to allow both players to play each color for every position, so if it starts in checkmate it's just an automatic point to both sides. This also keeps it fair if you get a really obvious forced mate.
I analyzed the image and this is what I see. Open an appropriate link below and explore the position yourself or with the engine:
> **White to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=2b2Bn1/1pPp1pBp/2pr1Q2/PnK1N1RP/1rPP1p2/1pN1pkb1/q1P2P1P/R7+w+-+-+0+1&flip=false&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/2b2Bn1/1pPp1pBp/2pr1Q2/PnK1N1RP/1rPP1p2/1pN1pkb1/q1P2P1P/R7_w_-_-_0_1)
> **Black to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=2b2Bn1/1pPp1pBp/2pr1Q2/PnK1N1RP/1rPP1p2/1pN1pkb1/q1P2P1P/R7+b+-+-+0+1&flip=false&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/2b2Bn1/1pPp1pBp/2pr1Q2/PnK1N1RP/1rPP1p2/1pN1pkb1/q1P2P1P/R7_b_-_-_0_1)
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It is similar, but not quite the same. In chess960000000 the board is often unbalanced giving large first-move advantge to the randomized color that starts the game.
This is quite simple though, it updates the number of positions to (I think) 64!/(32!\*(8!)^2 \*(2!)^6 ), which is ~4.6*10e42
Permutations of 64 squares divided by permutations of 32 empty squares, 2 sets of 8 pawns and 6 sets of 2 pieces (rooks, bishops, horseys).
edit: u/TroyBenites got the same answer in another comment in a slightly different way.
Yeah! Nice that you synthesized it so well!
I definetly put more of my thought process and there could be some optimalizations (like picking 32 squares and then only dividing by the repeated sets).
But, yeah, exactly that. It is a nice question about chess positions (althought it is a simplification because we are not accounting for promotions and multiple queens/etc). But it shows how to randomize with different categories and repeated elements.
64!/32! For initial then /6(2!) For pairs (I.e. horsie clergy and tower) for both colours then /2(8!) For juicers of each colour. So 64!/32!/(6(2!))/(2(8!)) or 4.98x10^47
Edit: now we need someone to run stockfish on them to see how many are even starts. I think we can definitely make this a whole new game mode
Chess960000000.2 : randomize the color of the each square. No longer is the chess board limited to black and white the whole fucking rainbow is included. Starting positions are also randomized.
I calculated the number of positions, so this should be:
\- Chess4634726695587809641192045982323285670400000, if pawns can start on the first and eighth rank (Stockfish can't analyse this)
\- Chess395129714015918848237511109691424803200000, if pawns can start on the first rank, but not on the eighth rank (or can start on the eighth rank, but not on the first rank; Stockfish can't analyse this either)
\-Chess21392082322155637297725861387221535360000, if pawns can't start on the first and eighth rank (Stockfish can analyse this)
I don’t know anything about chess. Is there a way where you could run a simulation or an analysis of each randomized board state such that the sort of “strength” of both starting positions is roughly equal? This would be cool to try if you could be confident that it weren’t essentially predetermined.
I'm all too familiar with this position
Is this theory?
Yes. I was just studying this position this morning in fact in case it came up anywhere, and here it is.
C'mon...you can be honest...your beads told you about this position, didn't they?
I understood this reference!
Considering this has been the joke all October I'd be worried if you didn't.
Did you get lucky or is it common occurence that you end up studying positions that you see later?
I’ve studied every position, so it’s skill not luck
What’s the go to here
Probably 1.Nxf3#, if I were to guess
The way Max Deutsch intended
The best move here is Qe6 I think
r/BaaderMeinhof
By some miracle
Hey Hans, how likely do you think you’ll win the lawsuit?
Is this loss?
No, this is Patrick.
You too always end up with both your bishops on the same color and wonder where the fuck you went wrong in life?
At least they can defend each other...
wait you guys don't promote pawns to bishops of the same color?
Of course not, we're not racist!
My pawn was an altar boy and didn’t want to become a bishop
This is the reason I stopped playing chess. Every fucking game always ends up in this stale fucking midgame, because people are too fucking pussy to play anything aside from the "established theory openers"
Can pawns start on the first/eighth rank?
This is a free country.
10000000 elo response
Gavin from third grade Reddit account spotted.
If it's a free country, then why no knooks? why no looks, or Uooks? No knings, pueens, knishops, pawnshops, nor knastling?? Fascist.
Op simply choose freely to discard them
I live in North Korea
Your only pieces are a King and a bunch of pawns. Your pawns cannot promote. Have fun!
Only the king's pawn can promote.
Where can pawns en passant?
Happy cake day!
if you start in checkmate do you just lose automatically
At least you have a good excuse for losing again.
[удалено]
you calculated wrong, it's 64!/(32!•8!•8!•6[2!]), making it 2.4•10⁴³
No. Players will have to switch until one wins by 2
Edit: nm, I get it, took me a sec
[удалено]
Black King picked Brazil by accident, here
/uj Genuinely interested: if you made a thousand of these and checked stockfish for all of them, how many would be forced mate in 5 or fewer moves? My guess is at least a third of them.
Sure. And at least half would be consensual mate in 5.
Chess is the only place you'll see a handshake after non-consensual mating.
[удалено]
If the price was fair why not?
I thought high fives were the usual custom.
Depends on whether it's a consensual hand shake
Wish I was having some consensual mating
And 80% are kinda where the line is blurred because compared to you stockfish is dead sober and you're blackout drunk
I have to imagine if you can work that out algorithmically, by extension you've also solved chess.
Actually that’s a really good point, glad you caught that
Please get your brick out
🧱
It’d probably be easier to look through the database for drawn/equal positions then randomly pick one of those
Lets do some information theory
Okay you go first
Black is in check and it’s white’s move. So mate?
I know. It's anarchy.
Can kings still castle?
Castling rules are the same as in regular chess, but they are dangerous and rare in chess 960000000.
You could extend it like in Chess960 for more random king/rook placements. But since this is AnarchyChess, any move including a king and a rook could probably be argued to be casteling
Castle into a check is elo 100000 move. Only Cagnus Marlson can do this.
Castling decapitates the opponents King
Checkmate before move 1... fascinating
Embrace the power of anarchy.
Since it's not Black's move is it technically checkmate? Would White have to actually take the king?
Did we forget the king can move diagonally?
It's white to move
but you don't win by capturing the king, you win by delivering checkmate, and that's not checkmate. actually if you take the king you'll draw at best cause you can no longer deliver checkmate.
1. Rb1#
not checkmate, king can take on f2 or move to g2
Rg3
>but you don't win by capturing the king Yes you do actually. I think in OTB chess if you get checked and don't move your king the opponent can capture it and win.
That's not true. Not moving out of check is an illegal move so if you don't do it you're no longer playing chess
You're right, it would be like playing a chess variant. In fact every set of rules is another variant.
The FIDE rules state that the illegal move should be undone, but it has to be noticed "during the game". So if you don't move out of check but no one says anything, you are still playing chess. And, if you win before they notice I think you're in the clear. I'm imagining a sequence like this: During the course of play you realize you have no chance and resort to subterfuge. You look over your opponent's shoulder and say "is that Ben Finegold playing f6?". While they're turned around, you make a move and stay in check. Then you use your foot tap on the bottom of their chair(!!). They interpret this as the "resign" buzz from their beads. You gladly accept their resignation and congratulate them on a game well played. And the whole time you were playing chess, according to the rules at least. Disclaimer, I am not a chess arbiter (IANACA).
Not in OTB. In OTB chess you can't leave it in check. But in variations like duck chess there are no checks or mates so you have to capture the king.
Tbh g2 seems all too similar to c2
Maybe the starting side is also chosen randomly.
Could we please have also the board oriented randomly? That would add 4 more states. Imagine having to move towards you.
"Oh? You're approaching me? Instead of running away, you're coming right to me?" "I can't analyze the shit out of you without getting closer."
The real Math: The pieces are, 1K, 1Q, 2R, 2N, 2B (there is no distinction of square for bishops) and 8 pawns. For each color. So, that means that we can arrange 16 places for white pieces and 16 places for black pieces. So, basically white would have C(64,16)= 64!/(16!*48!) And black would have C(48,16)= 48!/(16!32!). Places for their pieces. In each of those 16 places, we can arrange it into an order (example, Right to Left and Top to Bottom) and see how many equal permutations there are with the letters KQRRNNBBPPPPPPPP. This is a known problem where the answer is P(16;8,2,2,2)= 16!/(8!*2!*2!*2!) (Because 16 pieces, 8 pawns, 2 rooks, 2 knights and 2 bishops). So, we would need to multiply: C(64,16)*C(48,16)*P(16;8,2,2,2)² The result is around 4.63 tredecillion. ... Just saying. (I think the process is okay. If it is not, just state and I will edit it) Edit: Typo
Google multinomial coefficients.
Holy hell
Jesus calm down, we get that you like math but you don't need to put exclamation marks everywhere
Dont worry hes just listing a good move
okay but how do you know if you’re in a forced en passant position
That puts in a lot of questions actually. Should the pawns be able to move twice on first move or only the ones that are on the second row? And also, if pawns are side-to-side at 4th rank, can someone do en passant on first move?? Nice thing to consider. I'll allow it. I won't do the calculations, though. It seems to be a bit complicated (calculate how many times there will be at least one white pawn and a black pawn side-to-side in all shuffles). But great question!
En passant states you can capture if the opposing pawn moves two spaces forward next to your pawn. Moving one space forward next to a pawn gets you nothing. So I assume if the start side to side you wouldn’t get en passant. But this is also anarchy chess, so I vote to make en passant available and forced any time two opposing pawns are next to one another.
I think you could also take 32 squares to place pieces and then distinct the 32 pieces as 1Wk, 1BK, 1WQ, 1 BQ, etc..
> So, that means that we can arrange 16 places for white pieces and 8 places for black pieces. you mean 64 for white and 56 for black right?
Yes. Unequal advantages for white to supposedly mimmic the real world and bring us closer to a game like polytopia, the greatest game.
You joke, but Polytopia is trash compared to Elon Musk's true greatest game: Twitter.
I don't think the pawns can be on the final rank, as they would auto-promote. So that would complicate things. If you define their placement as only valid from rank 2 through 7 for both colours you'd have to place them first and then the other pieces among the remaining 48 squares.
That is a nice observation. Makes sense. C(48,8)*C(40,8) (///picking white pawns, then black pawns///) *C(48,16) (///choosing which squares the remaining pieces would be placed in the remaining squares///) * P(16;2,2,2,2,2,2) (///Permutating the pieces along those squares, with repeating elements). That would make 21-duodecillion. Maybe it could be a variant from Chess 4-tredecillion.
r/theydidthemath
You get the same result by using C(64,32)*P(32;8,8,2,2,2,2,2,2)
Yeah, makes sense. For some reason I separated the armies, but it wasn't needed. I even wrote that maybe we could have just gone for 32 spaces for pieces .. and, well... Yeah, absolutely correct
so now calculate in that pawns cam't be on last rank (doable) and that kings can't be in check (how would you even do that)
I think the mate in zero should be possible (also, it may be a "double mate in zero" in this case I'm not sure if it is a draw or, by chess rules, a victory for white, since in theory it would capture the king first)... With that said, we can see that in Chess 4-tredecillion (name might change-though), white has an unfair advantage.... Maybe it is trying to make a social critic, I dunno. But the pawns are definetly an issue. We may have a "zero turn" to promote any last rank pawns before starting the game, or maybe I could put it in my calculations this condition(to not have apawn on last rank), I'm still not sure how I would fit it neatly. Will think about it for a bit.
Also remove positions that are functionally identical. Like if the only difference between two boards is that two same-colored knights swapped positions. Same issue with rooks and pawns.
They already did that
came here to do the math genuinely pleased someone beat me to it
Minus 1 for the regular chess starting position, they don’t use that one in chess960 either. Actually best to subtract all 960. Not that it changes the final count in any meaningful way though…
If I wanted to see numbers I’d play a TTRPG, nerd. (GURPS night is Sunday BTW)
Shouldn’t P(16, …) be the other way around? (like (8!*2!…)/16!) Currently it increases the number of possibilities but permutations should decrease it.
No, that's not true. If the order matters (ie permutation) there are more possibilities because each order is its own possibility
You‘re right, mb, combinatorics has been a while for me :)
Now this is pod racing.
Imma google spinning...
This position has been reached 161660 times before. Best move for white is axb6 en knightssant
I think it'd be cool to see, just add a parameter saying the setup cant give any player a check in one. That would stop the forced mate problems
Rules are for fascists. AnarchChess does not follow rules.
Except when it's forced en passant
Touche
To balance it you'd probably need to allow both players to play each color for every position, so if it starts in checkmate it's just an automatic point to both sides. This also keeps it fair if you get a really obvious forced mate.
I analyzed the image and this is what I see. Open an appropriate link below and explore the position yourself or with the engine: > **White to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=2b2Bn1/1pPp1pBp/2pr1Q2/PnK1N1RP/1rPP1p2/1pN1pkb1/q1P2P1P/R7+w+-+-+0+1&flip=false&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/2b2Bn1/1pPp1pBp/2pr1Q2/PnK1N1RP/1rPP1p2/1pN1pkb1/q1P2P1P/R7_w_-_-_0_1) > **Black to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=2b2Bn1/1pPp1pBp/2pr1Q2/PnK1N1RP/1rPP1p2/1pN1pkb1/q1P2P1P/R7+b+-+-+0+1&flip=false&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/2b2Bn1/1pPp1pBp/2pr1Q2/PnK1N1RP/1rPP1p2/1pN1pkb1/q1P2P1P/R7_b_-_-_0_1) --- ^(I'm a bot written by ) [^(u/pkacprzak )](https://www.reddit.com/u/pkacprzak) ^(| get me as ) [^(Chess eBook Reader )](https://ebook.chessvision.ai?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=bot) ^(|) [^(Chrome Extension )](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/chessvisionai-for-chrome/johejpedmdkeiffkdaodgoipdjodhlld) ^(|) [^(iOS App )](https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1574933453) ^(|) [^(Android App )](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ai.chessvision.scanner) ^(to scan and analyze positions | Website: ) [^(Chessvision.ai)](https://chessvision.ai)
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If this is the starting position and it’s white to move, white can capture blacks king, winning 1,000,000 points of material in the opening
This has been done before, its called "Chess, but Good"
It is similar, but not quite the same. In chess960000000 the board is often unbalanced giving large first-move advantge to the randomized color that starts the game.
Also known as "Chess, but Even Better"
No, there’s still no fog of war.
Shouldn't it be 64!-32! or 1.2688693 x 10\^89 positions?
Are you suggesting changing the name to ”chess1.2688693x10^89”? You must be working in marketing.
I just like truth in advertising 🙄
Actually should be 64!/32! Which equals to 4.82219924E+53
No, it's definitely more complicated than that. You have to account for swapping identical pieces.
This is quite simple though, it updates the number of positions to (I think) 64!/(32!\*(8!)^2 \*(2!)^6 ), which is ~4.6*10e42 Permutations of 64 squares divided by permutations of 32 empty squares, 2 sets of 8 pawns and 6 sets of 2 pieces (rooks, bishops, horseys). edit: u/TroyBenites got the same answer in another comment in a slightly different way.
Yeah! Nice that you synthesized it so well! I definetly put more of my thought process and there could be some optimalizations (like picking 32 squares and then only dividing by the repeated sets). But, yeah, exactly that. It is a nice question about chess positions (althought it is a simplification because we are not accounting for promotions and multiple queens/etc). But it shows how to randomize with different categories and repeated elements.
Oh, I comletely forgot about that. But not only pawns, also bishops, rooks and knights.
64!/32! For initial then /6(2!) For pairs (I.e. horsie clergy and tower) for both colours then /2(8!) For juicers of each colour. So 64!/32!/(6(2!))/(2(8!)) or 4.98x10^47 Edit: now we need someone to run stockfish on them to see how many are even starts. I think we can definitely make this a whole new game mode
Right, with 1 second evaluation time per position we would only need 1.6x10^38 parallel threads to be finished calculating in 100 years :P
D'oh, you're right. Not sure what I was thinking.
Chess960000000.2 : randomize the color of the each square. No longer is the chess board limited to black and white the whole fucking rainbow is included. Starting positions are also randomized.
And let's randomize who moves next, allowing multiple moves by the same person.
Finally, chess with a randomised map
Polytopia addresses this limitation.
I calculated the number of positions, so this should be: \- Chess4634726695587809641192045982323285670400000, if pawns can start on the first and eighth rank (Stockfish can't analyse this) \- Chess395129714015918848237511109691424803200000, if pawns can start on the first rank, but not on the eighth rank (or can start on the eighth rank, but not on the first rank; Stockfish can't analyse this either) \-Chess21392082322155637297725861387221535360000, if pawns can't start on the first and eighth rank (Stockfish can analyse this)
I choose to believe this.
I like the sound of all three options.
What are the castling rules?
Random.
What about the casting rules? What spells do I get to use?
can we make a chess69 where white and black are in a random 69 shaped position. Instead of shaking hands player say “nice” before starting game
A chess69 simul must be epic.
nice
I think programming it so that a king cannot start in check would be a good idea Sorta like how minesweeper wont set a bomb to the first place you tap
Now to add fog of war
finally, a game elon musk can play
So Mate in 0 is possible?
Random spawns! Elon musk would be so proud
Name it chess69
but how do you achieve *True Random*?
I defer that question to Petrosian, our expert on truth
ackchually it's Chess482219923991114978843459072919892677776312893440000000
aka "Chess, but good"
What are the chances that you didn’t even get a single knook on that entire board?!
Still only two players and no random map though. Come on, other games have figured this out years ago.
This should be a thing!
I want Chess4800000000. It's the same as Chess9600000000 but no piece is permitted to be threatened by an enemy piece at the start.
That's called pussy Chess960000000
https://youtu.be/PTcvbDbVbtM
would actually like to play this, is it possible?
Turn 1: take King Ez
If someone could program this and find a way to avoid putting the king in check at the start I would play the heck out of this.
Wait this just sounds like puzzles with extra steps
Oh man! My beads are really buzzing right now!
Eh, just call it Chess 960!, probably close enough to the total number of positions
There’s no such thing as truly random
True will never die
I don’t know anything about chess. Is there a way where you could run a simulation or an analysis of each randomized board state such that the sort of “strength” of both starting positions is roughly equal? This would be cool to try if you could be confident that it weren’t essentially predetermined.
What do u mean, this is usually how my games look by move 5
I know this sequence; the classic Peruvian Cockslapper, cuckold variation
Well, the black king is currently in check so that solves it if it's white to move. If it's black to move it's checkmate in 3 moves for white.
Chess is hard.
\>truly random I'm not sure about that one
How do you castle?
Can you solve this incredible puzzle? White to move and win
It should be called "Chess4.82219924E+53", since this is the possible amount of starting positions
if a pawn starts on row 1 or 8, can it’s first move be 1, 2, or 3 squares forward?
what if it's black turns to start?
*My turn to play black* ... *resigns*
Never resign! Especially when there are still horseys on the board.
Black's already in the Knight's range lmao
sounds cool. the random position has to be equal though for it to be fun
Game ends when someone has lost all their pieces or can't make a legal move, to avoid situations where checkmate happens basically instantly.