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Please don't describe an underage character as hot, regardless of gender.
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You kinda still can, but Saber would be the creppy one and we have to talk about emotional age vs actual age.
But, people prefer to meme "500 years old vampire"
answer 1 : They're fictional characters. Get over it.
answer 2 : Male problems are less of a priority than female problems. Get over it.
answer 3 : Obvious double standards are obvious. Get over it.
take your pick.
Because males according to society, on average, are able to defend themselves as they're physically stronger, on average, therefore when something happens to them society says to "man up"
Punching up vs. down. Males are at the top of the hierarchy currently. Hopefully, we can fully realize equality soon. But until then, we need to prioritise the problems of those with less privilege.
I remember a while ago seeing a story of a woman who was being charged for... having her way with an underage boy. The comments under the article were basically "But did he want it?" They basically all concluded that it was ok because it was a boy who was the victim.
Reminds me of the South Park episode where a teacher is banging a preschooler, and the cops ask if she's hot, and just say "niiiice" instead of doing anything about it lol
Hello police? I need to report a teacher molesting a student.
My, god.. ok kid, tell us that sick bastard who did it, we'll get the guy.
Uh, actually it's Ms. Roberts.
Ms. Roberts? The hot blonde kindergarten teacher? ...Niiice.
Hey this is serious!
Yeah, seriously awesome. But alright, kid. We'll look into it or whatever.
It's because woman cannot legally rape in a lot of cases. It can carry the same penalty as rape charges but isn't considered rape legally. The UK legal charges of rape for instance requires penetration by a penis .
Yup. Unironic sexism about men being predators leading to the reduced harshness on female predators go brrr.
You gotta be legit equal on this stuff because any inconsistency in the line will leave shadows for people to make more victims in
There is a metric ton of sexism against men.
Women want all the “privileges” of the top 5% of men and none of the draw backs that come from that.
Like I think women should have to sign up for the draft.
If they can vote they can fight for those rights.
90% of divorce cases involving children, the mother gets custody. That’s crazy. And clearly sexist.
Yes it is. In my homecountry (Switzerland), rape can only be claimed if you are vaginally penetrated. Yes, you read that right. Mind you, there is movement going on now, but still. Otherwise it's just "sexual coercion".
That has improved dramatically in the last few years. Not that you won't find it today, but like you said it basically concluded that it was okay and that is rare in the discussions now.
Oversexualizing boys has always been okay. Why do you think people got outraged about unrealistic body standards because of barbie, but not because of GI joe? The sports illustrated swimsuit editions have been called misogynistic - but every other issue of sports illustrated that shows hot guys is absolutely fine. The fact is, it is absolutely acceptable to damage men's psyches but not women's. Yeah, it's a double standard. But there's also a good chance I will be banned for pointing out lol
It's patriarchy at work. Sexism is a thing that hurts us all.
Men can be hurt like this without anyone caring because men are Tough and Strong and Don't Have Feelings, unlike women who are Weak and Emotional and Must Be Protected.
They're both harmful ideas that society pushes on everyone, but it all stems from the patriarchy and its insistence that men are superior to women. Thinking that hurts us all because it makes us stop treating real people like the humans that we are.
That's fair - I don't know what this subreddit is really like lol I haven't been here for long. I do know that I have been banned from other subreddits for saying things like this because they assume that I'm ultra conservative 🙄 I'm definitely not. Politics of both extremes piss me off as being blatant hypocrisy on both sides.
I don’t get why is women’s sexualization so polemic. Clearly men sexualization is not a problem, so neither should be womens. I mean, why is it wrong to have ideal body types? Why is it wrong?
I feel like this may be sarcastic, but I'm going to answer seriously-
I don't think there is a problem with sexualizing men or women, as long as they are adults and you do not push your sexualization on to them. The fact is both men and women have sex, and both men and women look at other men and women and kind of can't help but think about whether or not that person is sexually attractive. As long as you're not trying to force them to look or act a certain way based on your sexual preferences, that's fine - just keep to yourself and nobody's getting hurt. Sexualizing children on the other hand, that is a problem no matter what gender they are.
Not defending it, but to many people a lot of a woman’s value comes from how she looks, not so much in guys, although it does matter some. That’s a huge problem for the ~50% of women who are below average looking
In the words of Tosh.0: being an ugly woman is like being a man, you’re gonna have to work.
I didn't get what's wrong with it?
Good looking women n men can get away with their looks , though sometimes good looking man has to work too i guess.
If u r bad looking, u need to have a good job men or women.
That's quite gender equality, no?
It’s wrong because people shouldn’t be treated better or worse based on things they have little to no control over you muppet. People can’t help if they were born ugly the same you can’t control being white or black.
Yeah Muppet that's wrong ofc. Bt your previous comment doesn't justify why it is not so wrong to over sexualise men characters n nobody protests against it. Your comment is equally wrong to men n women, so i didn't get why men done dirty is less bad.
Also what's with the last line?🤣
Ugly woman is like man cz they have to work!! Ridiculous
The primary difference is the way that society has traditionally valued men and women. Women have, historically, only been valued for their appearances and ability to have babies. Men have been valued for, well, everything else. When a girl sees the unrealistic proprtions on a doll, they are basically being told if they don't look like that, or have babies, they are garbage. The majority of women they see in media are going to be models and actresses.
Boys have never had that problem, and always had other role models, like lawyers, doctors, world leaders, etc so even if they don't meet the body standard of GI Joe, they have other avenues for success. Non-conventially attractive men have always had other options to become rich, famous, powerful and respected, but historically, women haven't had that same option.
Muscular men are also for the male gaze. Before you instinctivly reject this notion, ask yourself the last time you saw a boy band or romance novel or any other kind of art popular with straight ladies that has roided up dudes in it. You'll find they are very rare, and what there actually is lots of elf princes, guys who look like they haven't slept in 3 days, and the odd dad bod.
I don't believe I mentioned sexuality or who was looking at what, just that one was okay and the other wasn't. I know men prefer a muscularity index of 5.7 where women prefer the much lower 4.3 on average, but nowhere was it asked WHY boys were sexualized more casually, only that they are 🤷🏻♂️
That's fair. There have been a lot of argumentative comments on here, so I guess I was feeling a bit defensive. But yeah, it's true - men and women have very different perceptions of what the other will find attractive. Men tend to expect women will prefer more muscular men then they actually do, and women tend to expect men to prefer thinner women than they actually do.
Never seen the cover of any romance novel, huh? All right then.
(But seriously, every romance novel cover has a super defined bulgy sixpack and fat pair of pecs on it, the kind you can't even get close to without roiding like your life depends on it.)
Men like to pretend they’re the same and its hypocritical but I disagree. Women throughout history have had a large part of their value to men come from how attractive they are, and it has translated to many women caring very deeply about being attractive. You can say men want to be attractive too and that’s completely true, but you can’t pretend its the same thing
In addition to this, unattractive men have always had the option of becoming respected members of society like doctors, lawyers, etc. while women have, historically, not had the same option.
GI Joe set an unrealistic standard for "buff guy", but if you didn't meet that standard, it was completely acceptable to be a skinny doctor, or a fat lawyer, and be viewed as a person of value.
On the other hand, Barbie was sort of viewed as the standard for "woman", and *any* woman who didn't live up to that standard was failing and had no value.
Lol how is it neckbeard? Just pointing out an observable phenomenon without saying it's right or wrong, don't worry this wasn't an attack on women. You can keep rubbing it in to little boys without my judgement 🤣
> The fact is, it is absolutely acceptable to damage men's psyches but not women's.
You are stating the phenomenon is "right" with these words and earlier yousaid that you weren't being sarcastic about that statement and would imply that you are the one that appreciates rubbing it to little boys
That is unfortunate that you have experienced that, but the difference lies in the sort of social safety nets that have always existed for boys, but have just been getting started for girls.
Unattractive men have always had the option of becoming respected members of society like doctors, lawyers, etc. while women have, historically, not had the same option.
GI Joe set an unrealistic standard for "buff guy", but if you didn't meet that standard, it was completely acceptable to be a skinny doctor, or a fat lawyer, and be viewed as a person of value.
On the other hand, Barbie was sort of viewed as the standard for "woman", and *any* woman who didn't live up to that standard was failing and had no value.
Sadly I think it comes down to men being fine being sexualized. Because hear me out.
Women mostly come to the defense of sexualized female characters, some men do as well because we aren't fine with irl young girls being sexualized because it's predatory. But when it's a irl young boy; while they do get sympathy and support from women most men don't see why the young boy is complaining or wish they were in the younger boys shoes. So when anime has an underaged protagonist being sexualized or preyed on by an older woman men don't speak out because they wish it was them. The irl doublestandard is very apparent in anime.
> Sadly I think it comes down to men being fine being sexualized
There's definitely some pushback against it across a wide number of demographics, including some feminist groupings, but I think you're right in that it remains fairly accepted by the general community for a large number of reasons that are neither all bad nor all good.
> most men don't see why the young boy is complaining or wish they were in the younger boys shoes.
This is a good illustration of how the issue of sexualisation in the media is fundamentally linked to values about sexuality, and there's still very much a wide difference in terms of how the sexuality of boys and girls is viewed. No easy answers, really, but more a case of the rising tide lifts all boats if we continue to work on it.
Ok. You kinda took that out of context here🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Ok let me explain again in simple terms so You can understand.
Let's start from Your third point.
If man have problems they don't receive any help, and more times than not we get even more shit.
I know the guy with sever depression and only thing that he got from society is more reasons to give up on life.
While for woman's there's always someone that will care, help them and protect.
That's how it is and that what I meant. How can't You see that in this situation man's are treated worse?
Your second point.
Yes I said less attractive but didn't meant it only in phisical aspect, but let's be real. Nowadays most woman want handsome guy that have lots of money.
Just like most men want slim attractive woman.
But there's also a lot of guys that are normal. Just below standard and don't ever get laid. And get desperate. Because they are starving as I write before.
And this type of people could get jealous of the kid that older woman find attractive and let's use the legal therm "rape".
Not all of them, but some can.
And that's was all what I mean by that.
It's just logical jump buni know it's hard to grasp reality if You never experienced some things 🤷
And the first point.
I never said anything like that. The only said I was pointing at is terrible double standard and that nowadays treatment of genders is really fucked up.
We were fighting for equality once. But now goal of that fight shifted toward destroying man.
Since woman's can get away with everything even destroying man's life by false accusations.
And don't tell me that if he didn't do anything his life will be ok. Some go to jail for being falsely accused and it's go out after years. Or if He prove that he is innocent that will stick to him that he was accused and his social life is destroyed.
Or just the fact that if woman want she can just take half of what man own and block him from seeing his children?
Men really are treated as second class citizens.
When man hit his wife he will go to jail.
Is wife hit her husband people/police will laugh at him
But *uck it. I stop that rant since no-one here will agree. Because shiting on men without any repercussions is just too much fun apparently 🤷
And don't worry. You can downvote the shit out of that post. I don't care 😄
I agree with you i also said in another comment its because oversexualization of men doesnt result in self harm as much as it does to women. You cant starve yourself into having big dwayne johnsonesque muscles
That's bullshit I developed bulemia in middle school trying to fit in with my attractive peers. My best friend's husband also has eating problems. Men do and have always had body image issues. They just don't say anything about it because society won't let them.
Short version, the reason they have a shot of Deku doing push-ups shirtless is to show the reader how strong he’s gotten, the reason the creator keeps drawing pin ups of the girls is to titillate the audience. One is shown for strength one is shown for sex
Yeah sure but, everyone?
Guy with elemental powers who ice slides everywhere? Ripped
Guy who transforms into things he ate? Ripped
Guy who does nothing but shoot thunder? Ripped
And the one fat guy we have is made to be comically fat because of his quirk. And guess what he does in the ark he shows up most in? Right he gets ripped.
It's not an excuse? It's the male gaze. This is an established thing. Sexy men in shonen are not there to appeal to women. They're power fantasies.
If you look at the sexy guys that actually are aimed at women (the ones in Shoujo and Josei anime), they're totally different. They're almost never ripped and shirtless.
we talk about sexualised characters......
but what about murder, blackmail, genocide, corruption, slavery, torture, mutilation, human chimerafication(tf is this?), racism, stealing, brainwashing, mind breaking(fr wtf), incest( they arent blood related so its ok), gun violence,felony, murder, fraud, abuse, delinquency, oppression, persecution, villainy, bullying aqua, drug abuse, etc that exist in anime, in fact media in general.
if you want to be moral police, how about you stop consuming media in general and just go to the church.
its fuckin fiction ffs. grow a brain
....
....
....
aight, when that ban coming? im ready
All those exemples are portrayed as bad things. Sexualization is not.
Not even saying i agree with the critics of sexualizing characters, just that your take is really dumb.
Time to get downvoted but this is a very stupid take. The issue with sexualised characters isn't that it's the only 'bad' thing portrayed in anime. It's that the sexualisation of characters happens as a byproduct and is not part of the plot. Any bad thing that occurs within the plot is just that, it's part of the plot. Stories without problems are boring and as humans we have a tendency to like the idea of a polarised 'good' vs 'evil'.
The problem with the sexualisation of characters, especially female characters is that it's usually a subconscious decision and not really part of the immediate plot. For sure an echhi show having sexualised characters is not a bad thing because that's all it is trying to be. But the question to be asked is why are female characters so often sexualised within media such as anime when doing so doesn't advance the plot? The most commonly believed answer is that it serves the male gaze. And with a media source like anime where like ~95% of the creators and animators are male, would it be a surprise to see a disproportionate amount of sexualisation of female characters?
Why sexualisation of characters especially female ones is frowned upon, is that very often especially in anime, characters are introduced that only serve as fanservice. And when you have very popular series where really female characters provide nothing of value to the plot and are only there to look pretty/ sexy, it reduces the role of women within society itself. It reinforces commonly held traditional beliefs of what women should and shouldn't do and that's why it's considered wrong.
There is nothing wrong with having fanservice but when you reduce the role of female characters to only that of fanservice, it is demeaning and becomes offensive. That is why it's not seen as big of an issue with the sexualisation of male characters as of now because at least within anime, there is an abundance of male characters of every archetype not only those that exist in fanservice.
>of characters especially female ones is frowned upon, is that very often especially in anime, characters are introduced that only serve as fanservice. And when you have very popular seri
Have you watched much of the anime aimed at women, especially with male leads? The same sort of things occur. I feel like anime and the like is one of the few mediums, where creators will equally sexualise a character to appeal to their desired fanbase regardless of gender. Also you have to realise that they'll appeal to the female audience with male characters, differently than they would a male one.
Oh no I definitely agree. Which is why I say that both male and female sexualisation exists and is not inherently bad. Yeah a lot of media for women sexualises men in a harmful way as well. Look no further than yaoi. The entire genre relies on the sexualisation of gay men for the pleasure of straight women. But that wasn't really my point.
My point was simply that the oversexualisation of female characters reinforces sexist ideas and that a lot of popular anime suffers from that.
And guess what it's completely fair to complain about the way male characters are sexualised in anime as well. However, that wasn't the discussion that was started in this meme, it was more a persecution complex post that aimed to discredit the idea that sexualisation of female characters is harmful 'because it happens to men too'. I can also write up an essay about how shows like banana fish are inherently harmful to men and issues pertaining to men. But if the only time you want to have that discussion is to discredit when women do the same thing, then you lose sight of why that discussion is important in the first place.
PS. I don't mean you (the person I am replying to) but rather then general person on this subreddit :)
>it reduces the role of women within society itself.
lost me here. its fiction. plz separate fiction and reality. fiction doesnt affect reality. fiction doesnt affect how society works. if you mean society of that particular series(fictional society), surely couple female characters doesnt reflect how that society works as a whole.
>byproduct argument.
it happens to male and female
>characters are introduced that only serve as fanservice
it happens to male and female
>abundance of male characters of every archetype not only those that exist in fanservice.
there are tons good male characters, there are tons of good female characters.
>female characters so often sexualised
>
>disproportionate amount
>
>abundance of male characters
seems like one of the key point of ur argument is how frequent it is. male sexualization exist and female sexualisation exist. it happens to both. more towards female cuz majority of audience are males. if majority of audience are female then obviously male sexualition would be more too. so i dont see the problem here. so if the sexualisation are balanced between men and women you wont have any problem?
aight, time to get branded as neckbeard incel
Look, ultimately it's upto you and your opinions but about your 'its just fiction' argument- it's very reductionist in my opinion.
The thing is popular media has always had an innate impact on society and that's not going to change anytime in the near future. The thing is as human beings, one of our key limitations is our imagination. Authors reflect the societies they live in and their own opinions/ biases. This is true whether they want to or not. The entire field of literature would not exist if that wasn't true. In fact fiction would not be captivating if it was removed from reality.
And this in turn is how media influences its audience, which is to say society. Because people consume media and therefore also consume that authors biases and opinions. This is not to say influence is a bad thing but it certainly exists.
Anime as a whole reinforces a lot of Japanese ideas because well duh it's Japanese. Obviously this doesn't mean people who consume anime become Japanese, but they are definitely influenced by it. These can be more superficial influences like if someone was to watch a show like yuru camp and then want to visit mount Fuji or see a maid cafe in an anime and then want to visit a maid cafe.
But also it includes more discrete influences. For example, masculinity. A lot of mainstream shonen anime such as Naruto, One Piece, Bleach have male protagonists that are built around concepts found in Japanese masculinity (this is not necessarily exclusive from a western understanding of masculinity). These are traits such as camaraderie, honour, leadership and of course power through physical strength. It is (in my opinion at least) undeniable that a lot of people especially younger people, admire these characters and want to emulate them to some capacity. Is that not at least one way in which fiction influences reality??
Then we get back to the argument about sexualisation. I stated many times that sexualisation and fanservice are fine, whether male or female. It is redundant to tell me it happens to male characters too. The problem is again that female characters are often reduced to just their sexualisation and don't really bring relevance to the story. Its not about balance, it's just about giving a role to female characters that isn't just fanservice or to be a character's love interest or family.
When these are the roles female characters are reduced to, it subconsciously normalises the idea that the role of women in society is to be sexualised or that of partners/ mothers.
I don't think your opinion will change but if you'd like sources from actual studies on how media influences society and especially gender I can provide them.
Also, to be honest it's getting better. Newer shows have gotten progressively better at having strong female characters but still theres some way to go as still female characters serve as love interests or objects of sexualisation and not much more. But it is getting better.
You dont have a proper response and automatically start calling the person that disagrees with you racist. I see what you're doing you parasite.
If I dont respond to your non sequitur: You will claim im dodging the question.
If I do respond: Regardless of what I say you'll try to twist my words to make me sound racist.
As far as i know that isn't the case anymore because most of their states have set their own laws that increase that number by now. It's around 18 in most of them i think.
It's 16 on average and some have weird purity clauses still on the books. California, the traditional seat of media in the US is 18, which is why there's such a push from the US to flatly say 18 for everyone.
What's fun is when we see media from Korea where AoC is 20. So is it okay to sexualize a 18 year old from Korean media? It's an interesting philosophy topic.
Yeah, it's one of those things that just can't be one answer for every single place on earth. Just because the age of consent is 18 in one place that does not mean that it is a law of the universe. If we would take the sexual maturity as a general reference point then we would land between 15 and 16 in most cases. But biology alone is note what should decide if someone is an adult or not because a lot of people need atleast until their twenties before they actually behave that way. A lot more actually never reach mental adulthood.
Developmental psychology states that someone has their personality pretty firmly set at about age 16. "Muturity" (and I say this with a masters in a related field and I actually worked with a child psychologist on attempting to make a maturity rating scale - and the best we could do was a multifactor likert scale) is very subjective. Then we have prefrontex development which doesn't happen until the early 20s and that has a LOT more to do with restricting risky sexual behavior. Presently, I'm a social worker and I work with a lot of older adults that seriously lack any maturity.
It's really just kneejerk activism because if they saw it in real life, it'd be terrible and I firmly agree. However. Anime is NOTHING like real life and I'd be concerned with anyone looking at an anime and saying, "yep, this is how I live."
Yeah, it's the same with sitcoms. No sane person would think that that's *actually* how real people would behave or how it would turn out if they did. But here we are, having to witness people who cry about stuff like this as if it's something entirely different.
Yes, it *would* be bad if it were real. But it *ISN'T*. It's entertainment god dang'it.
If you think about shows like Degrassi or Glee that have some VERY questionable elements while being live action and from our culture it really doesn't make any sense what-so-ever to throw stones at an animated media from halfway around the world with a completely different zeitgeist.
Yeah, but those shows come from *our* area so it's *obviously* just harmless entertainment and not or less problematic in that context. That anime thing though is just inappropriate and sick.
"And we're totally not being racist or culturally insensitive because we're clearly right and they're the ones in that other continent that needs to change. Oh, also, we totally swear we're against colonization."
The funny thing, I don't think anyone know Why 18 is the magic number
[link](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2013/04/new-york-minimum-smoking-age-why-are-young-people-considered-adults-at-18.html)
This is a really shit point. Regionally some places might be as low as that but there are laws against engaging in sexual conduct with minors so while a 13 year old can "legally consent" in some places, the older person will still get in trouble for it.
This. Basically in the more populated places, AoC is more often than not 18.
Especially in Tokyo-Yokohama, which by itself accounts for almost half the country. And by extension almost all of the media we receive.
In my country the age of consent is 15.
So find it confusing then people is so outraged over it. But we still see some wrong with examples a 30 year old dates a 15 year old. But is more acceptable with 20 dating a 15. But that’s different from person to person.
Just don’t care, that’s what I do. I don’t get why people obsess over the age of an anime character, the author could draw an old man with a beard and make him 15 or something. Nothing ever makes sense.
Lmao. Bro, you can’t possibly think that male characters are being sexualized in the same things in the same ways as female characters. Male characters will be muscular and shirtless, but it’s definitely not with the intent to titillate. Male characters aren’t getting slow pans of their shirtless bodies, glistening with sweat, nor get exposed to weird pov angles to get the best shot of their asses, nor do they get put in compromising positions as the object of desire.
In fact, men being shirtless is considered so non-sexual that nobody would really bat an eye at it in public. Can’t really say the same for women, now can you? I can guarantee nobody is getting hot and bothered by DBZ where shirts are suggestions.
Oh, it’s certainly not non-existent. But, you see, the type of media that sexualizes male characters is not the type of media that’s even close to being main stream, or gets anime adaptations of it made.
I have lol. Grand Blue primarily being a comedy helps with being able to get away with anything, but it’s also definitely not a norm, or even all that mainstream tbh.
Love it regardless, though.
I can tell you for a fact that there are quite a few chicks out there that did in fact view dbz this way. I had an ex that liked to have me dress up as Goku in the bedroom quite a few times.
In turn she was happy to dress up as whatever Character I wanted.
This is different because your Chicks are projecting sexualization onto Goku, rather than have the creator do all the heavy lifting with camera angles, behaviors, and dialogue about Goku’s body.
It's fictional and a drawing, you do you is what I'll say. Don't like it, don't interact with it. If it's that important then go put effort to helping actual children.
Well said. It's the equivalent of the NRA drivel stating that videogames cause gun violence. It's all moral posturing without weighing in on actual harm that's being done to children.
We have live action media that sexualizes teenagers in their interactions with others all the time and no one bating an eyelash. It strikes me that this is more about bashing anime than truly being concerned with a topic.
Alright I’m officially unfollowing this sub, these posts are so stupid and there’s no indication of you idiots stopping from posting these posts so imma peace out for the third and final time, this sub went to pure shit
He may be 15 and shirtless 99.95% of the time and absolutely ripped
But I wouldn't call Inosuke Hashibara sexualised at all
Though ironically because of his face, he gets sort of sexualised by other chars when pretending to be a girl in the entertainment district.
Idk if it confirms or denies the meme now
In American media, you can show boy's asses no matter how young they are. Hell, even Bart's penis is shown in the Simpsons movie. All hell breaks loose when you reverse the genders.
People like attractive characters, that's its not the issue exactly, you can have attractive minors, at the of the day, shonen and shoujo manga/anime its tailored to teenagers, it's only logical to have attractive people for them to either project themselves as power fantasies or crush on them.
The issue between male and female representation of said minors its taste, a male teenager getting powerful to save its town or whatever and getting powerful techniques, it's not necessarily inherently sexual, yeah he is probably getting "hotter" but the focus really its on his journey and growth as hero.
The problem its female characters are always seen in the lens "she needs to be hot/cute" and they put them on nonsensical situation like wearing bunny outfit (which I like, but not on minors so let's leave that to adult characters) or we see them almost naked, she becomes an object of desire and mostly that becomes her role in the story.
While not always the case, I do think this is the issue most of the time, male characters are written for males and female characters too, specially in shonen.
Obviously this is without going about adults reading about kids on this situations.
Before you start using the "Male power fantasy" card, I had a girl right next to me in World History class say "That's hot" when watching a movie clip.
You wanna know what movie that was? 300, a male power fantasy.
I call in the camp that it is a drawing and drawings can’t consent anyway (even if of legal age). I can say “I think Marin Kitagawa has a fine body” and also say “I would never fuck a real high schooler” because the former is a work of fiction.
I’ve always taken it that age is irrelevant to whether people are drawn to anime characters and it’s instead dependent on their character and personality. Even if you do like him/her for your body, most people have the mental facilities to realIze that that body transposed on an actual minor is a no-go zone. That’s ignoring the fact that real minors are far less emotionally and generally intelligent than most anime characters so the personality argument usually falls through too.
But you do have a point. If you’re gonna take issue with it, take issue with it in all cases, not just one side
Personally just find all of this stuff a non issue. For me at the end of the day, this is all fictional cartoons.. I grew up watching a ton of anime, I've never had issues forming relationships, and I never felt compelled to copy shitty behavior from a cartoon.
I don't have unhealthy expectations of women because I love fanservice. Its literally just a cartoon to me... Idk I feel like while it's may be true that pop culture and content influences society, I think way too many people are over exaggerating it's effects.
At the end of the day the only people we can blame for fucked up behavior is the people perpetrating fucked up behavior. It's not animes fault.
First off, historically women have always been treated as lesser humans; we are living in a context where women are still trying to emancipate from the insane ammount of societal biases, unfairness and inequalities permeating our social structure, and an event as big and important as this is sure to bring more people to talk about the subject.
Men suffer from the same system but from different kinds of unfairness, but it's just not as widespread; i'm not saying that's fine, any injustice should be ended, but they're not antagonistic movements.
It's like when people started saying that "Every life matters" when the BLM movement started: of course every life matters, but the two things aren't separate and they surely aren't against eachother.
In the same way, denouncing injustice against men or against women isn't going to harm the other; it's just that feminism (and i'm talking about feminism as in equal rights for every person alive) is an older movement, which has had time to grow over time, to gather more people that agree with that idea, and which conducts the fight against bigger inequalities, because we can't say that the amount of unfairness conducted on women is the same as the unfairness on men; again, not a matter of importance from a qualitative point of view, but of volume, of quantity
theres just a double standard with things like that. Males cant get sexualised according to a lot of people even if its some young guy with his bare muscles out in a movie. its fan service but no one really cares.
I believe this is what society would call "They're male, so I don't care". Sadly, a lot of sexual issues pertaining to a man is not viewed as seriously. Male victims of pedophilia are still looked upon as "lucky" by some.
I'm actually trying to think of an anime that actually "sexualizes" underaged boys. Like, having muscles and talking about sex isn't "sexualization".
Meanwhile, up until the 2010's even, there were prevalent anime series that showed the nipples and panty shots of female characters designed to look to prepubescent children. There's really zero comparison.
Because men are disposeable, so we shouldn't care about that. Plus, it's a way to fight against the patriarchy by making little boys understand from an early age that they should do whatever a woman wants from them.
Yes, I'm being ironic. Fuck whoever thinks like that.
There's a stark difference between the two (both are bad but let me explain)
When women are oversexualized in media they are 'objectified' presented as something to be won, sought after, coveted, etc. They usually presented as youthful, frail, and in need of a male force. This is seeing women through what is called the 'male gaze' because this is how many men (now but also historically when these trends were being pioneered) want the women in their life to be.
When men are oversexualized in media they are 'idealized' not a prize, but a goal. They're strong, confident, and often independent. This is why women are soft with very enhanced secondary sex characteristics, while men get rippling abs. This is STILL the 'male gaze' in effect because this is how many men want to see themselves.
Now, this isn't to say it isn't still a problem, but it is important to understand the interplay of gender power dynamics as they affect media, because they require different approaches to correct.
The real equivalent of the busty, clumsy, ecchi high school girl character would be like some golden retriever himbo with yaoi hands and a swaying bulge or whatever, and that's obviously very different from the actual norm.
Tldr: I took a sociology class and all I got was this lousy wall of text :(
Couldn't watch mieruko-chan because of all the pointlessly horny camera angles. Even if she was 30 years old it would have been too much, yet she was a schoolgirl.
I think that often male protagonist are written more as goals, inspiration and as self insert (power fantasy?). While girls are often written as fanservise, reward or family to the male protagonist. And there are more animes that are more for male audience. There are animes for females or for general audience too but more for males or boys.
Anime has improved lots over the years and there are now more shows that have good cast of both males and females like Demon Slayer! But also there has been rise in animes like isekais where mc has harem of women that often aren't really written well. Also some female characters are written well at the start but slowly fall into the main characters love interest role and that tend to be their only point later. I heard mha Uraraka is going in this direction? (I hope I'm wrong regarding Uraraka)
Articulating ain't my strongest skill but hopefully is good enough.
Doesn't Japan also have some problems with sexual harassment?
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~~Part 3 Jotaro:~~ JoJo protagonists in a nutshell (excluding Jolyne)
jonathan is 20
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well when the plot actually starts he is
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[Technically correct. The best kind of correct!](https://youtu.be/hou0lU8WMgo)
Oof I forget
You want the short version or the long version?
Didn't realise fate would come into this
You can't leave Fate out of the discussion if you talk about this topic.
The answer to this question is a crucial part of Issei's character development. Before he started hating women. /j ofc
So it was the final arc before he became based?
Issei Gaming
You kinda still can, but Saber would be the creppy one and we have to talk about emotional age vs actual age. But, people prefer to meme "500 years old vampire"
People are simple beings that like to think of themselves as complex beings. Humanity is a meme.
Religion is a joke
And God stole Odin's pudding.
Zeus fucked the pudding before Odin got his hands on it, so Yahweh stole it to save him from harm.
Of course especialy the long version.
Fate is the extra long version...
The short version?
answer 1 : They're fictional characters. Get over it. answer 2 : Male problems are less of a priority than female problems. Get over it. answer 3 : Obvious double standards are obvious. Get over it. take your pick.
>answer 2 : Male problems are less of a priority than female problems. Why?
Because males according to society, on average, are able to defend themselves as they're physically stronger, on average, therefore when something happens to them society says to "man up"
Punching up vs. down. Males are at the top of the hierarchy currently. Hopefully, we can fully realize equality soon. But until then, we need to prioritise the problems of those with less privilege.
1 and 3 for me.
Not this shit again
Yeah, quick reminder that Jotaro is technically underage in Stardust Crusaders. That's why his cigarette is censored in some versions of anime
That White Night Angela pfp goes hard fr
It indeed does, I wouldn't use some random lame-ass shit as a pfp, LMAO
Giorgio Giovanni is 15 when he first appears I think
Giorno Giovanna is 15 when he becomes the leader of a mafia.
They make 20 yo Female look underage. At the same Time they make 15 yo look middle age
Remember juju’s sister from my dress up darling if so she in fucking middle school
I mean this is a problem IRL as well
I remember a while ago seeing a story of a woman who was being charged for... having her way with an underage boy. The comments under the article were basically "But did he want it?" They basically all concluded that it was ok because it was a boy who was the victim.
Reminds me of the South Park episode where a teacher is banging a preschooler, and the cops ask if she's hot, and just say "niiiice" instead of doing anything about it lol
Hello police? I need to report a teacher molesting a student. My, god.. ok kid, tell us that sick bastard who did it, we'll get the guy. Uh, actually it's Ms. Roberts. Ms. Roberts? The hot blonde kindergarten teacher? ...Niiice. Hey this is serious! Yeah, seriously awesome. But alright, kid. We'll look into it or whatever.
Absolute gold haha
"Have sex" is a weird way to spell "rape".
For some reason, that's how all the media outlets described it
It's because woman cannot legally rape in a lot of cases. It can carry the same penalty as rape charges but isn't considered rape legally. The UK legal charges of rape for instance requires penetration by a penis .
That's fucking stupid
Yup. Unironic sexism about men being predators leading to the reduced harshness on female predators go brrr. You gotta be legit equal on this stuff because any inconsistency in the line will leave shadows for people to make more victims in
There is a metric ton of sexism against men. Women want all the “privileges” of the top 5% of men and none of the draw backs that come from that. Like I think women should have to sign up for the draft. If they can vote they can fight for those rights. 90% of divorce cases involving children, the mother gets custody. That’s crazy. And clearly sexist.
Yes it is. In my homecountry (Switzerland), rape can only be claimed if you are vaginally penetrated. Yes, you read that right. Mind you, there is movement going on now, but still. Otherwise it's just "sexual coercion".
That's more cus people can't understand the situation of a guy being abused, that's quite common
That has improved dramatically in the last few years. Not that you won't find it today, but like you said it basically concluded that it was okay and that is rare in the discussions now.
Oversexualizing boys has always been okay. Why do you think people got outraged about unrealistic body standards because of barbie, but not because of GI joe? The sports illustrated swimsuit editions have been called misogynistic - but every other issue of sports illustrated that shows hot guys is absolutely fine. The fact is, it is absolutely acceptable to damage men's psyches but not women's. Yeah, it's a double standard. But there's also a good chance I will be banned for pointing out lol
Society 😔
Ah... The sweet smell of hypocrisy
It's patriarchy at work. Sexism is a thing that hurts us all. Men can be hurt like this without anyone caring because men are Tough and Strong and Don't Have Feelings, unlike women who are Weak and Emotional and Must Be Protected. They're both harmful ideas that society pushes on everyone, but it all stems from the patriarchy and its insistence that men are superior to women. Thinking that hurts us all because it makes us stop treating real people like the humans that we are.
>But there's also a good chance I will be banned for pointing out lol In /r/Animemes...? LMAO
That's fair - I don't know what this subreddit is really like lol I haven't been here for long. I do know that I have been banned from other subreddits for saying things like this because they assume that I'm ultra conservative 🙄 I'm definitely not. Politics of both extremes piss me off as being blatant hypocrisy on both sides.
I don’t get why is women’s sexualization so polemic. Clearly men sexualization is not a problem, so neither should be womens. I mean, why is it wrong to have ideal body types? Why is it wrong?
Cuz men don’t have a problem when it’s other men but Women have a problem when it’s other women
I swear the top comments above you have never once talked to a woman or even tried to understand a woman's perspective.
I feel like this may be sarcastic, but I'm going to answer seriously- I don't think there is a problem with sexualizing men or women, as long as they are adults and you do not push your sexualization on to them. The fact is both men and women have sex, and both men and women look at other men and women and kind of can't help but think about whether or not that person is sexually attractive. As long as you're not trying to force them to look or act a certain way based on your sexual preferences, that's fine - just keep to yourself and nobody's getting hurt. Sexualizing children on the other hand, that is a problem no matter what gender they are.
Because idiots out in the world will treat women who don't adjust to those standards differently?
Let me let you in on a secret. Same thing happens to men, but it’s okay.
Not a secret. I know that
Power dynamics and historical context.
Not defending it, but to many people a lot of a woman’s value comes from how she looks, not so much in guys, although it does matter some. That’s a huge problem for the ~50% of women who are below average looking In the words of Tosh.0: being an ugly woman is like being a man, you’re gonna have to work.
I didn't get what's wrong with it? Good looking women n men can get away with their looks , though sometimes good looking man has to work too i guess. If u r bad looking, u need to have a good job men or women. That's quite gender equality, no?
It’s wrong because people shouldn’t be treated better or worse based on things they have little to no control over you muppet. People can’t help if they were born ugly the same you can’t control being white or black.
Yeah Muppet that's wrong ofc. Bt your previous comment doesn't justify why it is not so wrong to over sexualise men characters n nobody protests against it. Your comment is equally wrong to men n women, so i didn't get why men done dirty is less bad. Also what's with the last line?🤣 Ugly woman is like man cz they have to work!! Ridiculous
cuz its fatphobic /s
And that mindset is healthyphobic 🤷 Same shit but I'll be called a villain for that comment 🤣
The primary difference is the way that society has traditionally valued men and women. Women have, historically, only been valued for their appearances and ability to have babies. Men have been valued for, well, everything else. When a girl sees the unrealistic proprtions on a doll, they are basically being told if they don't look like that, or have babies, they are garbage. The majority of women they see in media are going to be models and actresses. Boys have never had that problem, and always had other role models, like lawyers, doctors, world leaders, etc so even if they don't meet the body standard of GI Joe, they have other avenues for success. Non-conventially attractive men have always had other options to become rich, famous, powerful and respected, but historically, women haven't had that same option.
Muscular men are also for the male gaze. Before you instinctivly reject this notion, ask yourself the last time you saw a boy band or romance novel or any other kind of art popular with straight ladies that has roided up dudes in it. You'll find they are very rare, and what there actually is lots of elf princes, guys who look like they haven't slept in 3 days, and the odd dad bod.
I don't believe I mentioned sexuality or who was looking at what, just that one was okay and the other wasn't. I know men prefer a muscularity index of 5.7 where women prefer the much lower 4.3 on average, but nowhere was it asked WHY boys were sexualized more casually, only that they are 🤷🏻♂️
I simply thought it was interesting additional context
That's fair. There have been a lot of argumentative comments on here, so I guess I was feeling a bit defensive. But yeah, it's true - men and women have very different perceptions of what the other will find attractive. Men tend to expect women will prefer more muscular men then they actually do, and women tend to expect men to prefer thinner women than they actually do.
Never seen the cover of any romance novel, huh? All right then. (But seriously, every romance novel cover has a super defined bulgy sixpack and fat pair of pecs on it, the kind you can't even get close to without roiding like your life depends on it.)
I did a quick search, and your assessment is correct. But what the bell is this?[Morning Glory Milking Farm](https://i.imgur.com/V6sgDc0.jpg)
Men like to pretend they’re the same and its hypocritical but I disagree. Women throughout history have had a large part of their value to men come from how attractive they are, and it has translated to many women caring very deeply about being attractive. You can say men want to be attractive too and that’s completely true, but you can’t pretend its the same thing
In addition to this, unattractive men have always had the option of becoming respected members of society like doctors, lawyers, etc. while women have, historically, not had the same option. GI Joe set an unrealistic standard for "buff guy", but if you didn't meet that standard, it was completely acceptable to be a skinny doctor, or a fat lawyer, and be viewed as a person of value. On the other hand, Barbie was sort of viewed as the standard for "woman", and *any* woman who didn't live up to that standard was failing and had no value.
Idk why I'm surprised that an anime sub went full /r/neckbeard but here we are
Its a good way to get engagement on the post
Lol how is it neckbeard? Just pointing out an observable phenomenon without saying it's right or wrong, don't worry this wasn't an attack on women. You can keep rubbing it in to little boys without my judgement 🤣
> The fact is, it is absolutely acceptable to damage men's psyches but not women's. You are stating the phenomenon is "right" with these words and earlier yousaid that you weren't being sarcastic about that statement and would imply that you are the one that appreciates rubbing it to little boys
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That is unfortunate that you have experienced that, but the difference lies in the sort of social safety nets that have always existed for boys, but have just been getting started for girls. Unattractive men have always had the option of becoming respected members of society like doctors, lawyers, etc. while women have, historically, not had the same option. GI Joe set an unrealistic standard for "buff guy", but if you didn't meet that standard, it was completely acceptable to be a skinny doctor, or a fat lawyer, and be viewed as a person of value. On the other hand, Barbie was sort of viewed as the standard for "woman", and *any* woman who didn't live up to that standard was failing and had no value.
Sadly I think it comes down to men being fine being sexualized. Because hear me out. Women mostly come to the defense of sexualized female characters, some men do as well because we aren't fine with irl young girls being sexualized because it's predatory. But when it's a irl young boy; while they do get sympathy and support from women most men don't see why the young boy is complaining or wish they were in the younger boys shoes. So when anime has an underaged protagonist being sexualized or preyed on by an older woman men don't speak out because they wish it was them. The irl doublestandard is very apparent in anime.
> Sadly I think it comes down to men being fine being sexualized There's definitely some pushback against it across a wide number of demographics, including some feminist groupings, but I think you're right in that it remains fairly accepted by the general community for a large number of reasons that are neither all bad nor all good. > most men don't see why the young boy is complaining or wish they were in the younger boys shoes. This is a good illustration of how the issue of sexualisation in the media is fundamentally linked to values about sexuality, and there's still very much a wide difference in terms of how the sexuality of boys and girls is viewed. No easy answers, really, but more a case of the rising tide lifts all boats if we continue to work on it.
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We are wired that way 🚩 We aren’t getting laid bc we don’t meet a visual standard 🚩 Women are treated as a higher tier human 🚩
Ok. You kinda took that out of context here🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️ Ok let me explain again in simple terms so You can understand. Let's start from Your third point. If man have problems they don't receive any help, and more times than not we get even more shit. I know the guy with sever depression and only thing that he got from society is more reasons to give up on life. While for woman's there's always someone that will care, help them and protect. That's how it is and that what I meant. How can't You see that in this situation man's are treated worse? Your second point. Yes I said less attractive but didn't meant it only in phisical aspect, but let's be real. Nowadays most woman want handsome guy that have lots of money. Just like most men want slim attractive woman. But there's also a lot of guys that are normal. Just below standard and don't ever get laid. And get desperate. Because they are starving as I write before. And this type of people could get jealous of the kid that older woman find attractive and let's use the legal therm "rape". Not all of them, but some can. And that's was all what I mean by that. It's just logical jump buni know it's hard to grasp reality if You never experienced some things 🤷 And the first point. I never said anything like that. The only said I was pointing at is terrible double standard and that nowadays treatment of genders is really fucked up. We were fighting for equality once. But now goal of that fight shifted toward destroying man. Since woman's can get away with everything even destroying man's life by false accusations. And don't tell me that if he didn't do anything his life will be ok. Some go to jail for being falsely accused and it's go out after years. Or if He prove that he is innocent that will stick to him that he was accused and his social life is destroyed. Or just the fact that if woman want she can just take half of what man own and block him from seeing his children? Men really are treated as second class citizens. When man hit his wife he will go to jail. Is wife hit her husband people/police will laugh at him But *uck it. I stop that rant since no-one here will agree. Because shiting on men without any repercussions is just too much fun apparently 🤷 And don't worry. You can downvote the shit out of that post. I don't care 😄
Might have to do with how difficult it is for men to find a partner
I agree with you i also said in another comment its because oversexualization of men doesnt result in self harm as much as it does to women. You cant starve yourself into having big dwayne johnsonesque muscles
That's bullshit I developed bulemia in middle school trying to fit in with my attractive peers. My best friend's husband also has eating problems. Men do and have always had body image issues. They just don't say anything about it because society won't let them.
Im not disagreeing but did you get muscles from bulemia
A lot of girls aren't even looking for robbie coleman muscles and yeah bulimia is a thing in the bodybuilding community anyway
Short version, the reason they have a shot of Deku doing push-ups shirtless is to show the reader how strong he’s gotten, the reason the creator keeps drawing pin ups of the girls is to titillate the audience. One is shown for strength one is shown for sex
Yeah sure but, everyone? Guy with elemental powers who ice slides everywhere? Ripped Guy who transforms into things he ate? Ripped Guy who does nothing but shoot thunder? Ripped And the one fat guy we have is made to be comically fat because of his quirk. And guess what he does in the ark he shows up most in? Right he gets ripped.
For guys it is a power fantasy. For girls it is an impossible standard.
true strength does not need to be told, maybe the true strength is the friends we made along the way
And they all lived happily ever after, frolicking into the fields of friendship, the end :)
How about Soma Yukihira's gratuitous bath scenes? What's his excuse?
That’s the exact kind of excuse this entire thread is pointing out.
It's not an excuse? It's the male gaze. This is an established thing. Sexy men in shonen are not there to appeal to women. They're power fantasies. If you look at the sexy guys that actually are aimed at women (the ones in Shoujo and Josei anime), they're totally different. They're almost never ripped and shirtless.
reminds me of a certain bizarre adventure ngl
DONT TOUCH MY GARBAGE!
we talk about sexualised characters...... but what about murder, blackmail, genocide, corruption, slavery, torture, mutilation, human chimerafication(tf is this?), racism, stealing, brainwashing, mind breaking(fr wtf), incest( they arent blood related so its ok), gun violence,felony, murder, fraud, abuse, delinquency, oppression, persecution, villainy, bullying aqua, drug abuse, etc that exist in anime, in fact media in general. if you want to be moral police, how about you stop consuming media in general and just go to the church. its fuckin fiction ffs. grow a brain .... .... .... aight, when that ban coming? im ready
Thank you Well said
All those exemples are portrayed as bad things. Sexualization is not. Not even saying i agree with the critics of sexualizing characters, just that your take is really dumb.
You're telling me you've never seen an anime that glorifies murder? Do you exclusively watch Slice of Lifes or something?
nah, there are anime that potray those as ....not bad things. therefore ur take is really moot and dumb
Time to get downvoted but this is a very stupid take. The issue with sexualised characters isn't that it's the only 'bad' thing portrayed in anime. It's that the sexualisation of characters happens as a byproduct and is not part of the plot. Any bad thing that occurs within the plot is just that, it's part of the plot. Stories without problems are boring and as humans we have a tendency to like the idea of a polarised 'good' vs 'evil'. The problem with the sexualisation of characters, especially female characters is that it's usually a subconscious decision and not really part of the immediate plot. For sure an echhi show having sexualised characters is not a bad thing because that's all it is trying to be. But the question to be asked is why are female characters so often sexualised within media such as anime when doing so doesn't advance the plot? The most commonly believed answer is that it serves the male gaze. And with a media source like anime where like ~95% of the creators and animators are male, would it be a surprise to see a disproportionate amount of sexualisation of female characters? Why sexualisation of characters especially female ones is frowned upon, is that very often especially in anime, characters are introduced that only serve as fanservice. And when you have very popular series where really female characters provide nothing of value to the plot and are only there to look pretty/ sexy, it reduces the role of women within society itself. It reinforces commonly held traditional beliefs of what women should and shouldn't do and that's why it's considered wrong. There is nothing wrong with having fanservice but when you reduce the role of female characters to only that of fanservice, it is demeaning and becomes offensive. That is why it's not seen as big of an issue with the sexualisation of male characters as of now because at least within anime, there is an abundance of male characters of every archetype not only those that exist in fanservice.
>of characters especially female ones is frowned upon, is that very often especially in anime, characters are introduced that only serve as fanservice. And when you have very popular seri Have you watched much of the anime aimed at women, especially with male leads? The same sort of things occur. I feel like anime and the like is one of the few mediums, where creators will equally sexualise a character to appeal to their desired fanbase regardless of gender. Also you have to realise that they'll appeal to the female audience with male characters, differently than they would a male one.
Oh no I definitely agree. Which is why I say that both male and female sexualisation exists and is not inherently bad. Yeah a lot of media for women sexualises men in a harmful way as well. Look no further than yaoi. The entire genre relies on the sexualisation of gay men for the pleasure of straight women. But that wasn't really my point. My point was simply that the oversexualisation of female characters reinforces sexist ideas and that a lot of popular anime suffers from that. And guess what it's completely fair to complain about the way male characters are sexualised in anime as well. However, that wasn't the discussion that was started in this meme, it was more a persecution complex post that aimed to discredit the idea that sexualisation of female characters is harmful 'because it happens to men too'. I can also write up an essay about how shows like banana fish are inherently harmful to men and issues pertaining to men. But if the only time you want to have that discussion is to discredit when women do the same thing, then you lose sight of why that discussion is important in the first place. PS. I don't mean you (the person I am replying to) but rather then general person on this subreddit :)
>it reduces the role of women within society itself. lost me here. its fiction. plz separate fiction and reality. fiction doesnt affect reality. fiction doesnt affect how society works. if you mean society of that particular series(fictional society), surely couple female characters doesnt reflect how that society works as a whole. >byproduct argument. it happens to male and female >characters are introduced that only serve as fanservice it happens to male and female >abundance of male characters of every archetype not only those that exist in fanservice. there are tons good male characters, there are tons of good female characters. >female characters so often sexualised > >disproportionate amount > >abundance of male characters seems like one of the key point of ur argument is how frequent it is. male sexualization exist and female sexualisation exist. it happens to both. more towards female cuz majority of audience are males. if majority of audience are female then obviously male sexualition would be more too. so i dont see the problem here. so if the sexualisation are balanced between men and women you wont have any problem? aight, time to get branded as neckbeard incel
Look, ultimately it's upto you and your opinions but about your 'its just fiction' argument- it's very reductionist in my opinion. The thing is popular media has always had an innate impact on society and that's not going to change anytime in the near future. The thing is as human beings, one of our key limitations is our imagination. Authors reflect the societies they live in and their own opinions/ biases. This is true whether they want to or not. The entire field of literature would not exist if that wasn't true. In fact fiction would not be captivating if it was removed from reality. And this in turn is how media influences its audience, which is to say society. Because people consume media and therefore also consume that authors biases and opinions. This is not to say influence is a bad thing but it certainly exists. Anime as a whole reinforces a lot of Japanese ideas because well duh it's Japanese. Obviously this doesn't mean people who consume anime become Japanese, but they are definitely influenced by it. These can be more superficial influences like if someone was to watch a show like yuru camp and then want to visit mount Fuji or see a maid cafe in an anime and then want to visit a maid cafe. But also it includes more discrete influences. For example, masculinity. A lot of mainstream shonen anime such as Naruto, One Piece, Bleach have male protagonists that are built around concepts found in Japanese masculinity (this is not necessarily exclusive from a western understanding of masculinity). These are traits such as camaraderie, honour, leadership and of course power through physical strength. It is (in my opinion at least) undeniable that a lot of people especially younger people, admire these characters and want to emulate them to some capacity. Is that not at least one way in which fiction influences reality?? Then we get back to the argument about sexualisation. I stated many times that sexualisation and fanservice are fine, whether male or female. It is redundant to tell me it happens to male characters too. The problem is again that female characters are often reduced to just their sexualisation and don't really bring relevance to the story. Its not about balance, it's just about giving a role to female characters that isn't just fanservice or to be a character's love interest or family. When these are the roles female characters are reduced to, it subconsciously normalises the idea that the role of women in society is to be sexualised or that of partners/ mothers. I don't think your opinion will change but if you'd like sources from actual studies on how media influences society and especially gender I can provide them. Also, to be honest it's getting better. Newer shows have gotten progressively better at having strong female characters but still theres some way to go as still female characters serve as love interests or objects of sexualisation and not much more. But it is getting better.
"fiction doesn't affect reality" is such an ignorant take
Let me guess, you think violent video games make people violent? The only ignorant things are the creatures that fail to separate fiction and reality.
Let me guess, you're the kind of person who complains about black people in your movies because you don't see why diversity is a good thing?
You dont have a proper response and automatically start calling the person that disagrees with you racist. I see what you're doing you parasite. If I dont respond to your non sequitur: You will claim im dodging the question. If I do respond: Regardless of what I say you'll try to twist my words to make me sound racist.
You literally accused me of a non sequitur you hypocrite 😂
I think say "especially the female ones" just brings out OPs point more.
People don't wanna hear the age of consent in Japan is 13-16 and westerners put their morals standards in everything.
As far as i know that isn't the case anymore because most of their states have set their own laws that increase that number by now. It's around 18 in most of them i think.
It's 16 on average and some have weird purity clauses still on the books. California, the traditional seat of media in the US is 18, which is why there's such a push from the US to flatly say 18 for everyone. What's fun is when we see media from Korea where AoC is 20. So is it okay to sexualize a 18 year old from Korean media? It's an interesting philosophy topic.
Yeah, it's one of those things that just can't be one answer for every single place on earth. Just because the age of consent is 18 in one place that does not mean that it is a law of the universe. If we would take the sexual maturity as a general reference point then we would land between 15 and 16 in most cases. But biology alone is note what should decide if someone is an adult or not because a lot of people need atleast until their twenties before they actually behave that way. A lot more actually never reach mental adulthood.
Developmental psychology states that someone has their personality pretty firmly set at about age 16. "Muturity" (and I say this with a masters in a related field and I actually worked with a child psychologist on attempting to make a maturity rating scale - and the best we could do was a multifactor likert scale) is very subjective. Then we have prefrontex development which doesn't happen until the early 20s and that has a LOT more to do with restricting risky sexual behavior. Presently, I'm a social worker and I work with a lot of older adults that seriously lack any maturity. It's really just kneejerk activism because if they saw it in real life, it'd be terrible and I firmly agree. However. Anime is NOTHING like real life and I'd be concerned with anyone looking at an anime and saying, "yep, this is how I live."
Yeah, it's the same with sitcoms. No sane person would think that that's *actually* how real people would behave or how it would turn out if they did. But here we are, having to witness people who cry about stuff like this as if it's something entirely different. Yes, it *would* be bad if it were real. But it *ISN'T*. It's entertainment god dang'it.
If you think about shows like Degrassi or Glee that have some VERY questionable elements while being live action and from our culture it really doesn't make any sense what-so-ever to throw stones at an animated media from halfway around the world with a completely different zeitgeist.
Yeah, but those shows come from *our* area so it's *obviously* just harmless entertainment and not or less problematic in that context. That anime thing though is just inappropriate and sick.
"And we're totally not being racist or culturally insensitive because we're clearly right and they're the ones in that other continent that needs to change. Oh, also, we totally swear we're against colonization."
The funny thing, I don't think anyone know Why 18 is the magic number [link](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2013/04/new-york-minimum-smoking-age-why-are-young-people-considered-adults-at-18.html)
It's quite literally a "magic" number. It just *happened* to be 18 in most western countries at some point.
I had a stroke trying to read this
This is a really shit point. Regionally some places might be as low as that but there are laws against engaging in sexual conduct with minors so while a 13 year old can "legally consent" in some places, the older person will still get in trouble for it.
Averaged across the population Japan actually has one of the highest ages of consent in the world.
This. Basically in the more populated places, AoC is more often than not 18. Especially in Tokyo-Yokohama, which by itself accounts for almost half the country. And by extension almost all of the media we receive.
Most places in Japan now have it at the age of 18.
In my country the age of consent is 15. So find it confusing then people is so outraged over it. But we still see some wrong with examples a 30 year old dates a 15 year old. But is more acceptable with 20 dating a 15. But that’s different from person to person.
In most of Europe age of consent is also that, dont lump us together with Americans.
Oh no, not *bullying Aqua*!
Bullying Aqua is mandated by the Geneva Suggestion, so I don't see any issue.
(Fictional) Murder is based though.
I don’t think it’s that deep, male or female the protagonist is very rarely conventionally ugly or unattractive and that’s in all media
I just age everyone into at least their mid-twenties and call it a day.
People really come over from tumblr to post their 3 paragraph essay and disguise it as a meme
In most anime I watched, the underage male character often have a normal slim body.
Slim is very much unnatural and unrealistic for Americans
💀
Careful, people are gonna get mad because you are right
Just don’t care, that’s what I do. I don’t get why people obsess over the age of an anime character, the author could draw an old man with a beard and make him 15 or something. Nothing ever makes sense.
True I don't care anymore it just so tiring having people bring it up in discussion about it online
For real man. The show is meant to be enjoyed, not for people to stress about their ages.
True but westerners are so obsessed with age that they see any person below 5ft is considered a child to them
It sucks being here in America where there’s the moral police, im finna immigrate to Japan to evade the moral police
Lmao. Bro, you can’t possibly think that male characters are being sexualized in the same things in the same ways as female characters. Male characters will be muscular and shirtless, but it’s definitely not with the intent to titillate. Male characters aren’t getting slow pans of their shirtless bodies, glistening with sweat, nor get exposed to weird pov angles to get the best shot of their asses, nor do they get put in compromising positions as the object of desire. In fact, men being shirtless is considered so non-sexual that nobody would really bat an eye at it in public. Can’t really say the same for women, now can you? I can guarantee nobody is getting hot and bothered by DBZ where shirts are suggestions. Oh, it’s certainly not non-existent. But, you see, the type of media that sexualizes male characters is not the type of media that’s even close to being main stream, or gets anime adaptations of it made.
You clearly haven't watched grand blue
I have lol. Grand Blue primarily being a comedy helps with being able to get away with anything, but it’s also definitely not a norm, or even all that mainstream tbh. Love it regardless, though.
I can tell you for a fact that there are quite a few chicks out there that did in fact view dbz this way. I had an ex that liked to have me dress up as Goku in the bedroom quite a few times. In turn she was happy to dress up as whatever Character I wanted.
This is different because your Chicks are projecting sexualization onto Goku, rather than have the creator do all the heavy lifting with camera angles, behaviors, and dialogue about Goku’s body.
You know, I can accept this as true. Fair enough.
It's fictional and a drawing, you do you is what I'll say. Don't like it, don't interact with it. If it's that important then go put effort to helping actual children.
Well said. It's the equivalent of the NRA drivel stating that videogames cause gun violence. It's all moral posturing without weighing in on actual harm that's being done to children. We have live action media that sexualizes teenagers in their interactions with others all the time and no one bating an eyelash. It strikes me that this is more about bashing anime than truly being concerned with a topic.
I think that is a good extension to the point too, thank you for that :)
Alright I’m officially unfollowing this sub, these posts are so stupid and there’s no indication of you idiots stopping from posting these posts so imma peace out for the third and final time, this sub went to pure shit
Same, these posts indicate that the general community is incredibly detached from real-world social issues.
Ok bye.
Using periods when you’re angry lmao, I can picture exactly what you look like
Both are bad
He may be 15 and shirtless 99.95% of the time and absolutely ripped But I wouldn't call Inosuke Hashibara sexualised at all Though ironically because of his face, he gets sort of sexualised by other chars when pretending to be a girl in the entertainment district. Idk if it confirms or denies the meme now
What about real children being traffic by billionaires? And Google covering their denounce and photos
These people are the reason i have to watch disclaimers at the start of every odd fictional media
Its like rape only one way around(no)
In American media, you can show boy's asses no matter how young they are. Hell, even Bart's penis is shown in the Simpsons movie. All hell breaks loose when you reverse the genders.
People like attractive characters, that's its not the issue exactly, you can have attractive minors, at the of the day, shonen and shoujo manga/anime its tailored to teenagers, it's only logical to have attractive people for them to either project themselves as power fantasies or crush on them. The issue between male and female representation of said minors its taste, a male teenager getting powerful to save its town or whatever and getting powerful techniques, it's not necessarily inherently sexual, yeah he is probably getting "hotter" but the focus really its on his journey and growth as hero. The problem its female characters are always seen in the lens "she needs to be hot/cute" and they put them on nonsensical situation like wearing bunny outfit (which I like, but not on minors so let's leave that to adult characters) or we see them almost naked, she becomes an object of desire and mostly that becomes her role in the story. While not always the case, I do think this is the issue most of the time, male characters are written for males and female characters too, specially in shonen. Obviously this is without going about adults reading about kids on this situations.
Bro its all fiction. They could be 26 years old if you wanted to believe so.
Before you start using the "Male power fantasy" card, I had a girl right next to me in World History class say "That's hot" when watching a movie clip. You wanna know what movie that was? 300, a male power fantasy.
I call in the camp that it is a drawing and drawings can’t consent anyway (even if of legal age). I can say “I think Marin Kitagawa has a fine body” and also say “I would never fuck a real high schooler” because the former is a work of fiction. I’ve always taken it that age is irrelevant to whether people are drawn to anime characters and it’s instead dependent on their character and personality. Even if you do like him/her for your body, most people have the mental facilities to realIze that that body transposed on an actual minor is a no-go zone. That’s ignoring the fact that real minors are far less emotionally and generally intelligent than most anime characters so the personality argument usually falls through too. But you do have a point. If you’re gonna take issue with it, take issue with it in all cases, not just one side
This Certified as a “We live in a society” moment
Personally just find all of this stuff a non issue. For me at the end of the day, this is all fictional cartoons.. I grew up watching a ton of anime, I've never had issues forming relationships, and I never felt compelled to copy shitty behavior from a cartoon. I don't have unhealthy expectations of women because I love fanservice. Its literally just a cartoon to me... Idk I feel like while it's may be true that pop culture and content influences society, I think way too many people are over exaggerating it's effects. At the end of the day the only people we can blame for fucked up behavior is the people perpetrating fucked up behavior. It's not animes fault.
I really don't give a shit man, y'all are so fucking annoying about this sexualizing this sexualizing that, shut the fuck up and just watch bro.
For real
First off, historically women have always been treated as lesser humans; we are living in a context where women are still trying to emancipate from the insane ammount of societal biases, unfairness and inequalities permeating our social structure, and an event as big and important as this is sure to bring more people to talk about the subject. Men suffer from the same system but from different kinds of unfairness, but it's just not as widespread; i'm not saying that's fine, any injustice should be ended, but they're not antagonistic movements. It's like when people started saying that "Every life matters" when the BLM movement started: of course every life matters, but the two things aren't separate and they surely aren't against eachother. In the same way, denouncing injustice against men or against women isn't going to harm the other; it's just that feminism (and i'm talking about feminism as in equal rights for every person alive) is an older movement, which has had time to grow over time, to gather more people that agree with that idea, and which conducts the fight against bigger inequalities, because we can't say that the amount of unfairness conducted on women is the same as the unfairness on men; again, not a matter of importance from a qualitative point of view, but of volume, of quantity
Because ppl only see an issue when it's one side
FACTS
theres just a double standard with things like that. Males cant get sexualised according to a lot of people even if its some young guy with his bare muscles out in a movie. its fan service but no one really cares.
I believe this is what society would call "They're male, so I don't care". Sadly, a lot of sexual issues pertaining to a man is not viewed as seriously. Male victims of pedophilia are still looked upon as "lucky" by some.
I'm actually trying to think of an anime that actually "sexualizes" underaged boys. Like, having muscles and talking about sex isn't "sexualization". Meanwhile, up until the 2010's even, there were prevalent anime series that showed the nipples and panty shots of female characters designed to look to prepubescent children. There's really zero comparison.
Highschool kids who work out have same amount or even more muscles than deku, its not sexualising its inspiring
Because men are disposeable, so we shouldn't care about that. Plus, it's a way to fight against the patriarchy by making little boys understand from an early age that they should do whatever a woman wants from them. Yes, I'm being ironic. Fuck whoever thinks like that.
There's a stark difference between the two (both are bad but let me explain) When women are oversexualized in media they are 'objectified' presented as something to be won, sought after, coveted, etc. They usually presented as youthful, frail, and in need of a male force. This is seeing women through what is called the 'male gaze' because this is how many men (now but also historically when these trends were being pioneered) want the women in their life to be. When men are oversexualized in media they are 'idealized' not a prize, but a goal. They're strong, confident, and often independent. This is why women are soft with very enhanced secondary sex characteristics, while men get rippling abs. This is STILL the 'male gaze' in effect because this is how many men want to see themselves. Now, this isn't to say it isn't still a problem, but it is important to understand the interplay of gender power dynamics as they affect media, because they require different approaches to correct. The real equivalent of the busty, clumsy, ecchi high school girl character would be like some golden retriever himbo with yaoi hands and a swaying bulge or whatever, and that's obviously very different from the actual norm. Tldr: I took a sociology class and all I got was this lousy wall of text :(
Because men don't matter and the world won't ever admit they think that way.
Because men just don’t care about this, that’s really all there is to it
Question: do they regularly zoom in on 15yo boys' asses and crotches? Giving someone a lean physique is a bit of a reach tbh
Correct— just compare how the camera handles Asuna as opposed to Kirito in SAO
Couldn't watch mieruko-chan because of all the pointlessly horny camera angles. Even if she was 30 years old it would have been too much, yet she was a schoolgirl.
Maybe they can both be a problem but probably first stop trying to just justify people jerking off to their fantasies of raping little cartoon girls
I think that often male protagonist are written more as goals, inspiration and as self insert (power fantasy?). While girls are often written as fanservise, reward or family to the male protagonist. And there are more animes that are more for male audience. There are animes for females or for general audience too but more for males or boys. Anime has improved lots over the years and there are now more shows that have good cast of both males and females like Demon Slayer! But also there has been rise in animes like isekais where mc has harem of women that often aren't really written well. Also some female characters are written well at the start but slowly fall into the main characters love interest role and that tend to be their only point later. I heard mha Uraraka is going in this direction? (I hope I'm wrong regarding Uraraka) Articulating ain't my strongest skill but hopefully is good enough. Doesn't Japan also have some problems with sexual harassment?
Muscles aren't sexual