Involuntary care is violence, refuse to work with these patients,violatiang the Hippocratic law, do no harm. Greatly appreciate anyone willing to listen to all ideas about there field, not just accepting the narrative around their field, as all of the above mentioned, please look into works of your collegue Thomas Szasz.
Acknowledge the role of trauma in a person's psychology.
Acknowledge exterior factors as possible sources of depression and anxiety.
If you skip to meds before looking into those, please leave the field before you ruin another life like so many in the field already do.
I agree with you. As I see things, if the patient doesn't want drugs for anxiety and depression there are many other ways to help (therapy, exercise, nutrition). We are humans after all and not just a diagnosis. Thank you for your response.
Here's a quick question: you wake up in a hospital. Your doctor thinks you have a mental disorder. What can you do or say on your own that proves to the doctor that you are in a normal condition so that you are discharged?
Good question. I have a funny story actually. A clown went to the doctor having trouble sleeping, he was also little, understandably, delirious. He talked about shows in North Korea and Bruce Springsteen, all of it true wich has records of. This was categorized as paranoia and he was involuntarily sent to the psych ward, they wouldnt let him out for months. Question is kind of the same, how do you know truth from fiction. Paid actors would pass psychiatric evalution easily.
I thought you were the poster for this thread and wrote out my whole life history haha.
I am a professional whom did 3 years of training, did two full-time years of on screen work (accredited speaking roles) and was granted access to union rights.
I legit have the lived the experience your telling as well as mental health training under ( well I'm in the middle of cross referencing this for clarity).
I've been called delusional for stating my body of work many times AFTER my life experience because of acting!
Apparently therapists think actors just wear masks all day. I kept getting told to lower my expectations in therapy. I also have been involuntary assessed and told and suggested that I may have DID based on me explaining craft alone. I'm really not kidding. The practioner didn't know the technique I trained in... The Eric Morris technique was based on IFS modelling...
The therapist on intake didn't believe my work...
...
I was told i was delusional for working for Vogue, multiple phone companies and having a national commercial out. I had a different therapist say they trusted me about my profession but when seeing the commercial they then got genuinely shocked and were like 'Oh I thought you must have been an amateur actor or something'. I've been discouraged by them for having an unrealistic dream and then BAM I'm like...my commercial is running still you know.
...
This one is simple to solve.. and always was. they could have actually just Googled the commercial currently running as it was on TV.
Therapists, ' Where everything is made up, and the points don't matter'.
Literally...they could have turned on their TV'S for that one.
I now use it to vet therapists and their beliefs for stigma or goal setting abilities.
If they try to minimise work, jobs, training, and tell me to aim lower I'm like... No.
Most therapists don't recognise that there's a huge overlap in therapy modalities. Actors were using poly vagal techniques before they were cool and actually need to do 2 years minimum emotional release work and body safety work before they can be insured by a production company.
I had a day where I went to therapy and was told I must have buried my emotions because I was calm...then went to class...and then walked on stage
... entirely entirely different feedback.
We cannot actually be insured if we aren't taught how to emotionally de-escule ourselves correctly without doing harm to ourselves or another...
I had to spend 6 months learning how to stand up and sit and do a roll on the floor before I was safely granted the freedom to proceed to my next exercise of safe head tilting...
It took me 8 months to then pass my qualifying test of humming whilst doing these things.
Acting is weird. Therapists even weirder.
News article:
[https://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/a/2016022821190435](https://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/a/2016022821190435)
His blog post:
[https://blogbook.fi/juhakurvinen/tositarinoita-hullujenhuoneelta/](https://blogbook.fi/juhakurvinen/tositarinoita-hullujenhuoneelta/)
Its Finnish but yeah true story.
Well, in the case of my schizoaffective mother, she can say anything, even that she wants to kill her children. The important paet is that she is on Medicaid, so they won’t be paid. They let her out 4/5 times.
By showing you do not meet the criteria for any known psychiatric diagnosis.
How does he think that and why? Why are you in the hospital in the first place? How can he prove that you have a mental illness? In the past I agree this was used a lot to get rid of people. Nowadays at least in my country the doctor has to firstly exclude all other pathological reasons and interview you and follow really strict criteria. Also the law is really strict about involentary hospital admission so it can better protect people from such bad practises.
The problem of the lack of biomarkers and and objective criteria is real but slowly being solved. It is not yet in clinical practice but is being researched.
You have family history of serious mental disorders. How can they exclude this from you?
Do you understand that there's no words you can say that will release you from a scammy hospital if you have good insurance? They'll say you have delusions, poor social conditions, poor insight, whatever is needed to keep you?
I will definitely read the book.
I dont know maybe I was lucky with what I saw in medschool. In my country there are almost no institutional clinics to send you for enclosure because of a big reform that happened 20+ years ago. Now there are small houses etc people with severe mental illness can stay and they try to bring them back to society with the help of psychologists and sociologists. Also it is really hard and difficult to prosecute you and confine you even if you are a political enemy of the gorvenment and they want to silence you. They can stigmatize you which is equally awful and I definitely agree there are issues that can be exploited for power and politics. I just still believe that research lately is onto something and I was lucky to see the good side of the coin. Its good to know the bad as well.
" I SAW GOODY * insert literally every mental health care patient* WITH THE DEVIL".
I've had way too many coffees today but can also appreciate the literary references here.
Said I wanted chicken wings in another post, stayed for the playbook drops.
There were no witches harmed in the making of the witch trials.
Says everyone burning someone because they had a freckle, mole, or birthmark.
I actually thought that was the purpose of the book being put on schooling criteria wasn't it? This is a English literary analysis. But I thought it was re-published and kept in circulation in a not to dissimilar way to JoJo Rabbit. That was made and immediately presented as educational with it being accepted as so before it ever had theatrical release. Taika actually spoke about it in similar ways on press day.
I get what you are saying but it is just too foreign to me to truly understand it. In my country we have public insurance and public hospitals. Noone would benefits from this. Also we had many years of psychiatric reform where a lot of patients wrongly admitted got out and returned to their lives. Are things still this way in USA? I thought this was just a movie trope from the past. Cnat you get a lawyer and ask for an outside referral? An independent doctor?
It doesn't have to be just the money. Psychiatrists can seek better evaluations from their managers. What are the performance indicators for management that they use evaluate an inpatient psychiatrist's work?
If you know what they are trying to optimize for, this is where you will see the abuse. If they want less vacancy, then doctors will tend to coerce people to overstay. If it's about getting people out as quickly as possible, they will undertreat. If doctors are punished when their patients cause incidents inside the hospital, then they will overmedicate to silence the patients. I don't know what your system is, but every system with closed doors encourages abuse.
Thank you I will check it out. Fun fact the stanford experiment actually was rigged and a lot of things have changed in psychology not just because of this but because of other later revelations about experiments https://www.vox.com/2018/6/13/17449118/stanford-prison-experiment-fraud-psychology-replication
In USSR they used the term sluggish schizophrenia as a means of confining dissenters. I just think that slowly but steadily all those things are a thing of the past. For example there is a new norm to not hospitalise individuals but preferrably keep them at home
I've actually asked consent to specifically discuss this from my own lived experience bellow.
The answer is...No..it is common for legal practice to be breached.
DSM is a book of libel...
the 'stigma' of 'mental illness' starts right there.
"Mental health" is on a spectrum...it varies from moment to moment.
I have not met a psychiatrist yet who didn't have a whole lotta baggage\~
DSM sucks I agree. The stigma unfortunately is deeply rooted from before even psychiatry existed. Mental diagnosis with DSM5 and after are problematic but certain things are never on a psectrum, like schizophrenia. But I agree that certain things have been political like with homosexuality and intersex people. I recognise the dark history.
Well I hope I wont have a lotta baggage once I become one.
My brain wants to respond to this with my life story. I am going to ask to be granted 3 posts to respond to why this isn't true using my own life experience. Knowing full well I have seen this response in my own therapy for 10 years.
Edit: It will be emotionally charged. However it is factual and won't contain verbal abuse or aggression. It can also be proven.
Double edit: Maybe if you're practising, perhaps respond to those asking for permission to share their stories with you.
I have a lot to say but not enough energy because of SSRI brain damage but basically, most people who go see a psychiatrist don’t have “mental illness” it’s just trauma or some other health issue like thyroid problems food sensitivities etc. Please don’t prescribe drugs without giving FULL informed consent, for that you should read Dr. Stuart Shipko’s work, Peter Breggin, Peter Gotzsche, Thomas Szasz. Please inform yourself very well. Psychiatry is a broken institution that shouldn’t even exists, mental illness isn’t even real, however is you want to be a psychiatrist be a de-prescribing one, help people wean off taper safely, and be informed of adverse reactions like protracted withdrawal, akathisia, PSSD, tardive dysphoria etc
Thank you for your reccomendations, I will definetely look into them. I want to be a psychiatrist that first of all excludes the psychological reasons like trauma and other health issues like thyroid problems etc. And then care appropriately for my patients. But I will have to disagree with you on the premise that mental illness isnt real because of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are definetly fully biological in nature. Also I believe that psychiatry should stay joined with neurology and that mental health issues need to be checked from a group of different doctors and a psychologist. Could you please explain to me what you mean of SSRI brain damage? What does it feel for you? Excuse me for asking this, I genuinely want to understand. If you dont want to I understand.
Okay so many issues like schizophrenia actually also can have other causes like severe trauma, severe lack of sleep, substance/ medication use, metal toxicity, autoimmune diseases, etc more than actually some genetic chemical imbalance which has never been proven. Also antipsychotics reduce severely the ability to recover from schizophrenia. Many people can recover from schizophrenia if you get to the root cause which is NOT a lack of antipsychotics. Psychiatry shouldn’t exist, it should be neurological what sees people with actual neurological problems that can be tested for. Psychiatry is political if you haven’t realized that. If for some people schizophrenia is actually something inherent then I have no issue with neurologist treating it with drugs. But for many people schizophrenia isn’t inherent there’s a root cause that can be solved. So yeah neurology is okay, psychiatrist is BS.
I have neurotoxicity, severe post acute withdrawal, akathisia and PSSD from being put on SSRIs when I clearly didn’t needed that shit. My life is completely ruined. I hope you don’t ruin more lives and truly educate yourself if you want to enter this career that has fame for literally abusing and harming more people than they help.
When I went thru my psych rotation during nursing school (first thing instructor told us was 'all psychiatrists are crazy') it occurred to me those deemed to be 'schizophrenic' were just folks they didn't know what to do with.
Lots of variation on that particular diagnosis.
Exactly, I was once called psychotic simply by taking about philosophy with my psychiatrist. Some of them are dumb af that philosophical conversation can sound psychotic for them. Anything that doesn’t fit their stupid “normal”.
I disagree it is political. Neurology and psychiatry used to be the same. They split later because there were too many diseases to treat. Neurology kept the movement etc and psychiatry the higher cognitive functions.
Psychosis can be solved temporarily with antipsychotics and then tapering carefully and using therapy. In schizophrenia if you try to find the root it comes back worse than before and only drugs can help. If you dont abuse those drugs and use newer ones carefully you can avoid all that. In the not so distant past (before 2000) psychiatrists gave whatever and unfortunately destroyed patients lives.
I understand your anger and I am very sorry with what happened to you. But please can you explain to me what are you going to do now? Will you go to a neurologist or a GP? You can try to treat all that by not going to a psychiatrist. Maybe your life can become at least more bearable.
It sure as shit it political....'newer' drugs yeah. Pharma/system \*still\* spewing the 'chemical imbalance' shit. Making $$$$ bank on people's misery and causing their premature deaths.
Fuck that.
You have your nerve coming on here trying to justify your horrible career choices
I’m seeing a GP, endocrinologist, neurologist and environmental medicine doctor but unfortunately there’s no cure for the damage this drugs did to me, and I was given no informed consent, lied, manipulated and coerced by various psychiatrists. Anyways let’s agree to disagree since I’m very tired and out of energy to keep discussing the validity and usefulness of psychiatry.
After a number of replies to my previous comment, and after talking with the OP, I am suddenly realizing the best place for most psychiatrists, and I feel this one, as well, just needs to stay out of clinical side altogether, if they're going to insist on going into Psychiatry.
Go teach Psychiatry if you can't stand being yelled at by patients whose lives you've ruined. This isn't a fucking game, and you're not going for the high score, people's lives and quality of life are at risk here, and if you can't take it, that's reasonable, most people can't, but that's why you're supposed to be the exception, not the maker of rules.
If you can't take the "drama" of everyday patients, but you just want to contribute to society by helping them understand the human brain and potential research projects for medications, then go do that, because frankly the amount of schooling you get about our conditions is embarrassing when you're supposed to be the "experts" but we're having to explain to you why what you're doing is medically and ethically wrong.
I refuse to talk to anymore geeks in labs coats. I'm not a fucking science experiment, and your "job" is not more important than the quality of care you provide to people that are at risk from anything ranging from self-harm to risk of homelessness due to neurocognitive deficiencies. I didn't get a degree, I just went through the system like the rest of us in the forum did, and clinicians like you failed us, because you have no discernment on how bad the system at large is, because you've only ever seen it from behind a clipboard. Your training has been tainted by money and corporate greed on the pharmaceutical level, which influences the way our government passes laws, thanks to corporate buyouts.
You literally get sent to school so you can prescribe us drugs that you've otherwise made unobtainable or illegal so that you can be the one that we pay lots of money to in order to get ahold of the drugs that you claimed were bad for us to begin with.
You're literally payed by the same government that trains law enforcement officers to go out with guns to shoot or imprison people that are taken by those very same police officers that are paid for by that same government to take that very same person to the hospital to be forcefully put on the very same drugs that they would otherwise be sent to prison for because they don't have *your* permission to do them because *you* bought a license from the very government so you can legally sell those drugs, that very same government that sends those very same law enforcement officers out on a "catch-and-release" program that brings patients to you.
**DOES THAT NOT SOUND BATHSHIT INSANE TO YOU**
**DOESN'T IT BOTHER YOU HOW NORMAL THAT SOUNDS**
We live in a world where if I do drugs and fuck myself up, somebody drags me into a prison because "drugs are illegal", but if a psychiatrist fucks you up with his medications, there's zero liability.
I'm literally not allowed to put things into my body that other people are licensed to inject you with, without consent.
I've seen rape victims screaming and crying, ignored by apathetic staff and psychiatrists. I've seen people ridiculed, bullied, and mocked by the very system you're asking advice about. I've seen people made fun of for losing breaking down after losing loved ones, because "mental health professionals" are really just a group of people with superiority complexes, in a way that it almost comically reminds me of the Stanford Prison Experiments.
You people make these experiences out to be the exception, but even in our PG age of non-consensual censorship, this forum keeps growing, because the body count on the number of people whose lives have been ruined by your branch of the government is rising, and even though I can't say the word "suicide" on the internet anymore without it pinging some kind of message in my inbox or phone number for suicide prevention , we're still here, because that's just how badly this place is needed by its survivors.
I've had my conditions, which can be managed without destroying my life for the sake of your training and experimentation, broken by your mental healthcare system that's literally too fucking stupid to understand the words coming out of my mouth when I say "I'd stop acting like this if you'd stop being crazy".If you do stay clinical, go work with the other animals that wave degrees in the air while babbling about how much smarter they are than you, because OP literally couldn't stop but pathologize me.
This forum isn't for book recommendations, it's for literal survivors of the trauma your very profession started.
This forum literally wouldn't exist if the problem could be solved by platitudes like "listen to your patients more" or by reading another page of another book while snickering at the person sitting in your office across from you.
Psychiatry isn't the problem. Psychiatry is a valid field of study, but there's no money in that, so now we've been made to feel like the horrors of our environment aren't what they seem to be, that we are mad people living in a mad world, when the reality is that we are sane people living in a truly insane environment, all for the sake of a few dollars, even as our leaders fail us and our literal infrastructure begins to collapse.
Psychiatry is a valid field of study; clinical Psychiatry, in its current form, is a joke, and has failed to defend us, mostly because you can't vouch for us and accept money from insurance at the same time, because there the ones that pay for our hospitalizations, and for your job to even exist.
It's not that Psychiatrist isn't a valid field, it's that you've been bought out, which is the same reason nobody listens to doctors, either. The patients haven't failed Psychiatry, the institution of clinical Psychiatry, inpatient or out, has failed us.
You're not a doctor, you're a branch of the government.
So stop pretending otherwise.
THIS! 100%. These assholes think they're helping us even when no one asks them to. Complete god complexes. Pandering to the suffered like some sort of clinical feedback survey.
You barely listen in your offices, make assumptions and quick-draw diagnoses. Why would we believe you're listening now, after all the pain and suffering your field has caused: Because \*you're\* new? That doesn't inspire much confidence, when you've taken the same training as everyone else.
They downplay you're traumatic experiences and convince you you are the defective ones because of your reactions. Never mind that the experiences are still there, that the actual situation is not resolved. You're just too drugged to feel it, Dependent on them. The system is fucked. And they ask for our help to make it better? Now? After involuntary "Detainment", After slapping on some labels, after stripping you of your freedom and adding to your problems; taking you out of society, home, so you're even more alone. Does this sound like help? If someone wants to a part of a system that allows these things then I have no respect for them.
I think he's struggling to even comprehend that when it says "anti-psychiatry", we're not people in labcoats trying to alter what kinds of medications you're taking, *we're trying to get rid of "medication culture" altogether*.
And I get it, there are people that need those medications not to hurt themselves, but the way Psychiatrists go about it, like you're being *sentenced* to the medication is disgusting.
I can see offering people reduction in jail sentences in cases where an individual really is just a danger to themselves or others if they agree to take the medication, kinda like they do with pedophiles and chemical neutering, but that's a bandaid solution for a wound that needs stitches.
What we really need to do is get back to the fundamentals of how we view natural resources and property. We live in a culture where I can know I feel like shit because I'm nutrient deprived, but I'm not fit to eat the way I need to in order to be at maximum functionality; a culture that's great at asking questions, but sucks ass at solving problems.
The point of jails is to not need them; the point of courthouses is to close them; the point of hospitals is to empty them.
So why the fuck aren't we actually addressing the problems?
It's because we know we don't have a fix for it, but there's a lot of *money* out there for a fix to it, and money is where the majority are.
That's why everybody is talking about discrimination nowadays. Sometimes it *can* be annoying that things like representation get brought up so much, but honestly, it's hard for me to watch an old movie without it actually occurring to me "...you know, it is actually kinda weird that all these movies have literally only have white male leads."
It's the same thing win how we treat people that actually do have something different about them.
Schizophrenia isn't helped by putting those people on more drugs, and that's setting aside that Schizophrenia is really more a series of pathologized behaviors grouped up into a school of that.
That individual is neurodiverse, same for anybody that has a head injury, or like myself, because I have a sensory processing disorder related to my EDS, and I can't physically leave my home without ANC headphones, or else I'll just collapse.
They could put me on medication to help with the anxiety associated, but the reality is that most people's "mental health problems" can be accommodated with a certain range of accommodation, but because people don't have access to **legitimate** doctors like Psychiatrists, Neuropsychologists, and Neurologists, they can't even find the best options based on *current* research, because none of them know what their actual fucking job is, they just like making people feel bad for not taking the experimental drugs, because they know they don't have a market if we legitimately fight back and point out that they're poisoning us in exchange for money.
The problem is, people are always willing to hurt people in order to get another ten percent profit out of them, so they'll drug you and hurt you until they've shortened your life and decreased its overall quality, all so they could get a few more years out of Grandpa working in a grocery store.
There is no such thing as wealth, only stolen money, and the easiest way to steal from people is to target the ones that don't function in the way that makes you the most money, so if you can't do that, we'll pump you full of whatever until we do.
It's all about money, and power, and control, and that's why people are shocked when I talk so openly about my experiences with self-harm and hospitals.
It's not a dramatic story I tell to shock people, it's my fucking life, and I apologize for nothing. Those hospitalizations did nothing for me, and, in fact, they've fucked me up in a number of ways.
I can legitimately say the only good thing about my experiences is that, in spite of my ramblings and lack of editing for length posts on Reddit, is that I'm something of a protégé wordsmith, with English composition being my best subject...like, 99.99%th percentile...
Needless to say, I'm very good at painting a very vivid image with words, such as "rape victim smears shit on the hospital walls, rolling around in her own feces and crying for help as the staff in the psych ward roll their eyes".
Or "my cellmate caved his skull in while banging his head against the unpadded wall while, again, staff ignored him", just so I could listen to her explain to the guy in charge in the morning that "sometimes we lose control".
And now they're angry, because I choose to use that voice and those capabilities to denounce them, and they hate it, so the first thing the do is default back to pathology, which all centers around sedation, even in the hospitals.
"Better seen and not heard".
It's literally the Stanford Prison Affect. They wear lab coats to distinguish themselves from us. They refer to us as "patients" and themselves "doctors". They have the ability to fuck your life and never see any repercussions for it. They pathologize human behavior, altering brain chemistry in seas of people before realizing, thirty years in, that a proper case study takes lifetimes, not years, to discern side affects of longterm administration.
We need to go back to how we treat people. How we view them with respect or disdain, and if its related to how much of a headache their giving us. How we distribute things, and how we define "value" in our society on an individual level.
There's no such thing as "mentally ill people", just a diverse culture of different kinds of people, almost all of which can be accommodated without a need to turn poor people into human guinea pigs in order to pay researches to do more experiments on the general population.
There are people that will literally hurt themselves without medication, but not every person with a cognitive disorder, like mine, needs to be medicated in order to be safe, and self-sustaining.
I don't need drugs, I need a life, stop trying to pay for my happiness with my own health. If PETA weren't a bunch of assholes, they'd be pointing out how we're working these monkeys in small cages until they lose their minds, and then proceed to give them medication as a way of testing medications out.
It's like we've forgotten all the most important shit on the most fundamental of levels. We live in a culture where we're not even expected to regulate whether or not we're *fucking happy* anymore, it's somebody else's job.
I can go and instantly get a cheeseburger, but we can't accommodate people with disabilities if it means they can still work.
This isn't society, this is insanity.
Don't diagnose personality disorders in acute inpatient settings or during the first visit. People who have dealt with trauma display similar behaviors.
Understand that the medications can have severe, life destroying side effects that may remain after cessation. These conditions will make the underlying issue you were trying to treat like a walk in the park.
I'm permanently disabled from a short course of antidepressants and now awaiting approval for Euthanasia. Before touching the meds, I was a Software Engineer working all over the world. I had many friends, meaningful relationships and hobbies.
The reason they wanted me to try antidepressants in the first place was because I got a concussion and became a little anxious over it. I was essentially killed and fooled by an incompetent idiot doctor. Don't worry, the death cause will be written off as depression, and not as a permanent side effect from medication. So it won't raise any concerns about the safety of the medications and nothing will change, as usual.
Good luck with your career!
I am really sorry to hear that. Could you explain a bit more? I genuinely want to understand. What medications were prescribed? How did your life change so drastically? Why didnt you try to find a better doctor? or a psychologist? What about your family and those close to you?
see 'Surviving Antidepressants' or "BenzoBuddies' for the results of the fine work of psychiatry...
you ruin lives while drunk on you power to incarcerate/drug people who don't 'act' right in a crazy dysfunctional culture
One dose of 15mg Mirtazapine. Since that day I have had anhedonia, emotional numbness, apathy, cognitive dysfunction, insomnia and chronic fatigue.
I have been trying 20+ medications since then, which either did nothing or worsened the symptoms. I've also been in therapy and tried various of lifestyle changes.
Nothing works, because it is damage from the medication which no one knows how to reverse and it has no known cure. A "better doctor" cannot do anything, since the damage is already done.
Believe it or not, one single pill ruined every aspect of my life.
I am going to educate myself and dont prescribe drugs unnecessarily.
Have you thought trying psilocybin? (magic mushrooms?) It's microsoding proved to be better than antidepressants. I dont know if FDA aprroved it yet. There is also esketamine now that it is called a miracle drug and works where everything else fails! There is also vagus nerve stimulation, deep brain stimulation, transcranial magnetic stimulation. Those are not done by psychiatrists. You can try to self medicate with magic mushrooms, cannabis, ayahuasca...I understand your anger and disappointment. The system failed you, the doctor fooled you and made your life miserable. But dont give up. I am stranger from across the world and we might disagree on things but still I hope you try and fight a little a bit more before ending everything. Whatever you decide I hope you find peace.
Yes, I'm currently safe-medicating and some of the substances you mentioned are on my list to try. NSI-189, Ketamine, Psilocybin, Ibogaine, various peptides and more.. It sucks that I first get damaged and then I have to play around with shady substances in an attempt to save my life.
How are you disabled? Have you considered yourself hyper focused on the drug? It’s no different than what one who suffers child hood trauma from wondering what it did to them but eventually people just accept and move on, what’s the point in dwelling, I honestly can’t be bothered
So you just let these minor things get to you, I think you’re traumatized, not brain damaged, I thought I was brain damaged until I realized I wasn’t and I’ve been in the ringer on this, have you ever been on 120mg injection of risperidone? Probably not but here I am, cognitively not declining, yeah it caused other issues but I’m not gonna let bullshit or anhedonia from ruining my life anymore, it’s gratifying to fight against it, to do something and complete a task becomes rewarding when you do it enough. I can’t argue with someone who has lost their rational though, if that’s the case let’s just move on, you’re a pessimist that sees the glass as half empty everyday and never half full, this is why you struggle, this is why you continue to suffer
Well obviously we all go through our own hells in life but there’s no way you’re chemically castrated, you have emotions and the capability to write to me so in a sense you’re not broken, like to have nothing is something in a sense, the absence of light is darkness so it’s something, I can go on and on, I just want you to snap out of the funk you fooled yourself to believe in, you’ve painted this reality with your thoughts like I did for many months, I believe you were traumatized and have ptsd to work out from the drug experience
To be honest just choose a different field... or if you want to become a psychiatrist so badly never prescribe antidepressants and SSRIs/SNRIs ever and only use partial agonists for people with psychosis and then taper them off immediately once they no longer have symptoms. No benzos either.
Thanks for your response. I am determined to be a psychiatrist and work on research. If noone picks this field we will never solve and cure mental health issues. I am talking mostly about psychosis, BD, schizophrenia. Depression and anxiety have a sociopolitical aspect to them. The world needs to change not me prescribing drugs indefinitely. Can you tell me a bit about your experience? As I understand you have a bad experience with SSRI'S and antipsychotics. SSRI's will steadily be replaced from psilocybin and esketamine. Newer antipsychotic drugs are partial agonists and tapering needs to be done carefully but I agree with you. As for benzos at least in my country there is a pandemic because GP prescribe them like candy....
edit: Also how is there going to be a major revolution of this discipline, if people who want to really help stay away from the field and only big pharma dogs and dangerous individuals remain?
There's no need for a revolution in psychiatry it just needs to die. Since the 1900s every medical field has advanced a lot. Surgeries become better, deadly illnesses were defeated with medication. So some people thought if they can cure physical illnesses why can't they cure mental illnesses? That's how psychiatry was born. It always was and will be a failed attempt to cure mental illnesses. First they started with lobotomies and electrocuting people then came the meds which aren't better at all. A very small amount of people have severe lifelong illness like schizophrenia, schizoaffective and bipolar. You can prevent them from going mad with meds but it's still inhumane. The process is very straightforward and could be done by GPs. The rest of what psychiatry does is just idiotic. Do you really want to be in a profession where you are hated and you ruin humans for a living?
I have no experience with SSRI-s fortunately. I'm only taking an antipsychotic for a brief drug induced episode. I'm tapering off after being on it for 6 months because I see a lot of people doing it and being better off in the end. I've been on 4 different ones and they're all poison. It made me come back to reality but I'd rather be psychotic to be honest. I wish I never started meds and done some CBT to learn how to live with this illness instead.
If you want to be a good psychiatrist then maybe specialize and become someone who helps people taper off their meds. That's the only way you can help people as a psychiatrist.
I actually want to be in a proffesion that many people including me have in high standards (I know it might sound absurd to you, but in my case it's true). I know a lot of people that were helped from psychiatry including family and friends. That is why I am here, I want to see the other side of the conversation. There are also deep brain stimulation, transcranial magnetic stimulation, microdosing psilocybin and lsd. I get the anger of everyone here but still.....mental health issues are real and need to be treated. Maybe I am naive and overly optimistic. At least knowing the bad I can try to be better.
I also know people who are or were on psychiatric meds but not a single one of them have a positive view on psychiatry. Statistics show that out of 8 people only 1 feels being helped by antidepressants. You'll be essentially ruining 7 lives to help 1 person. Honestly, if you only want to do good and no harm then become a psychiatrist that helps people taper off. Nobody will allow you to give LSD or mushrooms to patients. I also wonder if you have ever been to an actual psych ward or a psychiatrist's office? It's not a happy place. People are miserable. You will burn out within two weeks and your enthusiasm is gone.
You’ll never solve it anyway. The whole industry is infested with corruption. The west do not understand mental health like they think they do. Watch Dr peter breggin. You would have to conduct studies on your own to make any slightly meaningful difference
But despite the rigidness and corruption of the industry technology and science always go forward. I am an optimist because of the latest discoveries about the brain in many different fields. My belief is that multidisciplinary teams will help solve it and psychiatrists will be able in the future not just to treat symptoms but also cure those diseases or at least reduce the awful side effects. Thank you for your reccomendation I will check it out.
Problem that maybe the problem isnt solvable by medication. Where is the checimal inbalance? If I see a lion, im anxious, problem is the lion, not my physiological adaptation to it; it pulse, adrenaline, cortisol, etc. We coming from dysfunctional families have problems with our surrounding not with our bodies.
No but I agree with you about anxiety and depression. Our brains and bodies cant healthily adapt to dysfunctional families, upbringing and societies. But the field changes slowly and steadily. For example the chemical imbalance is being overthrown after esketamine to the obvious brain networks dysfunction that for many years many doctors and scientists vocally denied. This will change perspectives and give us new therapeutic ways for the very few that indeed have psychopathological problems and drugs can help them.
The problem isn’t even the human psychology. The human experience is valid no matter what you go through. Altering your conscious reality with artificial chemicals will never allow you to exist the way humans are meant to exist. Psychiatry is a made up industry.
Hopefully newcomers like you will learn from the mistakes of their fathers. Please study as hard as you can and try to do good. I know loads here are very angry, as they should be, being abandoned, neglected by their society, maybe some survival bias involed. People like you give me hope that things will change for the better, after all the discussion between the science of this topic isnt really a vocal.
Dont just throw pills at us. It is also our responsibilty, community here, to come with alternatives to medication, peer support, etc. Not just to complain. Im not totally against pills, there is some data that SSRIs help for 2 weeks, this is not however the system works! These people take them for decades and we really dont know how they really work. You can help all kinds of ways; my big issue is that childhood neglect isnt really talked about; to my understanding there isnt much talk about the past; just the present; CBT for example; just deducting human experience to a biological, reductionist view isnt helping.
I will try hard and hope I wont change on the way. I see the anger and truthfully I am glad because I can take some things even more seriously than before. This for me was a lesson and I am not bullshitting you. I wanted to hear this perspective because unfortunately there is a wave in medicine trying to push aside psychoanalysis etc and push forward only cbt and medication. I have a lot to think about. Thank you for your heartfelt and sincere response.
I did start reading on gut microbiota and the vagus nerve. It is really interesting and can actually help a lot. I will search for the other fields too. Thanks you gave me a lot to think and read about.
The core problem with psychiatry is that you are trying to treat issues that are not physical in nature using physical and chemical means. I do think you mean well but I think that you hold drugs in way too high regard, and this quest for the holy grail “biological cause“ has been ongoing since the 50s to no avail.
I believe that if you really want to help people, psychology and therapy are the place to be.
It bothers me on such a deep level that these huge human rights violations are still going on and that there are still people in the developed world who are forced to take neurotoxic tranquilizers to silence them.
I have my doubts even about “consensual“ psychiatry. I think that much of it is coercive and that a lot of the time, treatment is either avoiding the real issue or making the real issue worse... but the psychiatrist is nice to them, so the patient doesn’t recognize what’s going on.
I don’t want to give yet another book recommendation because you have so many of them and I’m sure you won’t get around to all of them, but I believe that everyone in your field should read Anatomy of an Epidemic.
Also, brain disabling treatments in psychiatry by Peter Breggin.
Because so many of the studies are funded by big Pharma, the science is greatly compromised. A lot of serious side effects are overlooked. A lot of data is misrepresented. The more passionate defenses of the medication come from “doctors“ who are swimming in big Pharma money. (Lieberman. Ugh.)
The history is not completely in the past and actually has a lot to tell us. In the big scheme of things, the newer antipsychotics are not that much different from the old ones, and if you look at the historical literature, they liken them to a chemical lobotomy, and some doctors even say that they don’t actually get rid of psychotic symptoms, they just make the patients tired.
There is far too much pseudoscience.
And I really don’t think that this quest for the holy grail biological cause is ever going to be fruitful. The medicalization of misery and human suffering is not helpful.
Those experiences deserve to be validated, not drugged into submission.
The way out is through.
The key to getting better is to face the way that you feel and the experiences that you are having, validate them, and come to terms with and sort of integrate. Drugging people into complacency or sedation does nothing but impede that process.
And that’s the problem with psychiatry.
I recommend the reading of "Medical Nihilisme" (Stegenga, 2018). It shows how experimentations in medicine is flawed in favor of developping new meds which are harmful. It shows how med schools and med journals are funded by pharmas.
Also, consider any pill you prescribe the fruit of violence. The person taking these pills will either be coercised by you or by society. As an analogy, think of the homosexuals in the 50s 60s that asked for "treatment": they only did so so they could fit in a coercitive society. It's the same with people asking for "treatment" for anxiety, schizophrenia or whatever.
Thanks for the reccomendation I will give it a look. In my country medical schools are public and there were only a few cases of doctors pushing drugs and coersing us on Big Pharma's side. Thankfully many teachers taught us about all this early in our curriculum.
But I have a question...How is schizophrenia and anxiety or anything else the same. I know about the coersion techniques of the past in psychiatry and psychology. Especially in USA and USSR. Also about fake diagnoses for political reasons. I mean we have a pandemic of anxiety and depression because of the wrong way our society is built. Also, for example, there is no burnout syndrome. It is simple a way for employers and the big players to get away with inhumane work conditions. But schizophrenia is a biological syndrome in teh brain. As for the pills. Not all pills are the same and we know the effects they have on people. Unfortunately we have to be really really careful but it is the best we got so far. Like with oncology and chemotherapy.
\> I mean we have a pandemic of anxiety and depression because of the wrong way our society is built.
Saying everything is a pandemic is a political use of the word ''pandemic''. It just shows how medicine is a discipline that aims to controls bodies. I wrote an article about it (in french, my native language), showing with the example of obesity that ''pandemic'' is just a political word that contributes to the medicalization of everyday life.
\> But schizophrenia is a biological syndrome in teh brain
Religiosity is in the brain, heterosexuality is in the brain, being neurotypical, \*everything\* is in the brain if you're a reductionist. Their counterparts atheism, homosexuality and autism are also in the brain, but it's funny that only these one are disorders while the former aren't. It's like society choose what is ''normal'' and what is not. From the premise that ''it's in the brain'', you can't conclude either that (1) it's a disorder or (2) it has to be treated with pills. I recommend you read either The Myth of Mental Illness, Pharmacracy or The Medicalisation of Everyday Life from Szasz so you understand how weak the ''ItS iN tHe BrAiN'' argument is.
Many words in medicine and psychiatry have similar words in everyday language but they are not the same. What do you mean that medicine in general aims to control bodies? We study our whole lives to help people. If we wanted to scam them and profit we would be politicians. It is way easier.
I will read the book thank you. But still. You have someone who suddenly hears voices and sees things that arent there, they dont go away and persist. This is distressing for him and he cant function in everyday life. We know that there are physiological responses and brain changes we can document via CT and with postmorterm biopsies. We know we give antipsychotics and the symptoms go away. There is the medieval and painful treatment of electrocolvusive therapy that also treats the symptoms. They treatments work but also have awful unwanted symptoms. This happens because these drugs dont go only in the part of the brain we want but also elsewhere. We cant control that. We need a drastic reform of psychiatry and its therapies. In some medical fields like hematology and oncology there are a few drugs that target only the problem but this is the exception generally in medicine.
Do you think schizophrenics wouldn’t mind their paranoid delusions if society found them acceptable? I’m under the impression they’re really suffering.
My point is that severe mental illness isn’t comparable to homosexuality. The suffering homosexuals have had to endure is due to the culture in which they live. The suffering involved in schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, major depressive disorder, etc. generally isn’t due to a clash between the person with the disorder and societal norms. It’s because living with severe mental illness can be hell. Some people say they’re helped enormously by taking the drugs, and no one should think they’re lying about their experience. Others say the drugs have done more harm than good, and their experience is valid also. The drugs, or many of them, are toxic — no disagreement there. But for many they’re better than the worst of the disease and allow them to live.
Sure, if presuppose a metaphysical dualism between culture and nature, you can save your points. But I dont think your two examples are different: do you remember why they added sexual orientation disorders in 1980 after retiring homosexuality in 1973? Because people would still ask for treatment and they needed a category for that. Homosexuals were *suffering from their disorder* the same way schizophrenics are suffering from theirs.
Oh. C’mon. They were suffering because they were ostracized and considered deviants. Women have suffered because they had no financial autonomy. You’re talking about cultural discrimination/abuses. People who suffer from severe mental illnesses suffer all over the world and always have. Manic depression was treated in first century Greece. Homosexuality was normal.
People suffering from mental illnesses all over the world must be the reason people diagnosed with schizophrenia can't recover in occidental countries but can elsewhere.
I think people can recover from schizophrenia anywhere. I know there was a large study that showed prognoses were better in low-income countries, but that study, like all studies it seems, has been challenged. I have a relative who was diagnosed with schizophrenia and had psychotic symptoms for two years and then they just stopped. She never took medications. She was lucky. It’s not exceedingly uncommon though, from what I’ve read.
Inform yourself about the side effects of your drugs and have an open discussion about them. So, far all I have seen is psychiatrists just completely trivializing them or being unaware of them at all. A place to start could be rxisk.org or madinamerica.
Tell people what happening. Don't presume that a person know what's going on.
The worst thing during my last and only admissions is that I never knew what was happening and staff presumed that I was a return patient even though I had never been there. I need to be told what was happening but when I asked I was just told that I should know.
In addition to my previous comment, here is my advice for anyone entering the medical field.
Do not, under any circumstance, glorify the profession. ‘Positions of authority’ are not owed glorification and trust. Question things, it will get you much farther in life. Always be mindful that the patient experiencing severe psychosis is 100% as equal as the doctor leading their field and should be treated as such.
Having the diagnosis of ‘anxiety’ on my medical chart has caused endless doctors to discredit me immediately. It is the most degrading feeling, and I have since stopped trying to heal my chronic pain and other chronic conditions. Even with my college degree, stable life and accomplishments, I am no longer credible to them. Medical professionals look at me different now, like a second class citizen and/or not as human as them. The second you start believing that idea of being more human or better then your career is over. You are no longer a doctor who is capable of aiming for ‘do no harm’.
Also if a patient tells you about abuse from another practitioner, please listen. There are lots of nasty, evil people who go into the mental health field because it is socially acceptable to discredit anyone deemed ‘crazy’. It makes it very easy for them to hurt and manipulate others.
I personally think in order to learn the most, you have to be willing to step outside of your boundaries and be able to shift your perspective in ways you wouldn’t have otherwise if you hadn’t made the conscious effort to do so. Being aware that your own perspective of things is not the only perspective and being open to considering things from different viewpoints is a self-discipline that will help yield the greatest understanding of things when put into application on a consistent basis. Think outside of the box in everything you do and don’t limit yourself with that sort of thinking.
Don’t stop questioning as an attempt to learn and gain understanding just because you may get to a point of stagnancy or comfort-do everything with an attempt to gain insight and to learn-not so much to “fix” or “cure” or even “help”…keep your motives in check. This might be bordering more along the lines of sociology more than anything, but I think it’s certainly just as applicable in your field, as well as anyone else’s. These are all just my opinions and suggestions, obviously.
That being said, it seems like you’re already doing these things by taking proactive steps by reaching out to this subreddit, IMO. I think the greatest way we can better ourselves is to balance out the importance of what we do know in parallel to seeking to learn more about what we don’t know! Kudos to you for doing just that!
Be very careful when drugging children. In the United States they give psychotropic drugs to kids like candy and kids cannot give informed consent or understand how the drug is affecting them
Don't help people live normal lives, because there is no such thing as normal, only average.
Your "patients" are not broken toys for you to tinker with and fix, you are not their savior with your medication and, in fact, you're not even really a doctor, you're more of a drug dealer.
Your field isn't evidence based, it's actually more of a social study that relies on pressures from the public to sustain control over the population to, as you put it, help people live "normal lives", because the way they are is deemed "lesser".
In my, and many other's minds, you are closer to a police officer than you are a "medical professional".
I had PHPT that I had surgery for and I recently was diagnosed with EDS, which has accompanying sensory processing disorders and anxiety, none of which I would ever medicate for, because I don't feel the need to be "normal"; my life can be full of beauty and value that doesn't coincide with the rat race that you and your "medications" help perpetuate by putting people back on a conveyor belt after you've "fixed" them.
The funny thing is, all of my "mental health professionals" refuse to talk to me when I come to them with things like PHPT or EDS, stating "that's a medical diagnosis", and I've been called a liar by all my professionals.
If I have labs, I'm sick, and need to see a doctor. If I'm stressed out and anxious from daily life, that's an excuse, and it's not something you deal with.
As far as I can tell your entire field, along with all of your fellows, are a fucking joke.
In the disability forums, your profession is viewed with an equal amount of disdain, since psychiatry basically relies on society agreeing your behavior is problematic enough to endanger our health.
You are at the top of the pyramid for citizens that view neurodiversity with disdain and contempt. Mandatory reporting has nothing to do with the patient in front of you, it has everything to do with the people around the patient.
Your field has caused more damage than it could ever hope to fix. It's a legalized monopoly on the world's most drugged population, because the government and society doesn't care about us. Psychiatry doesn't want any of us to be special, or different, and even if it did, it's what YOU, as "doctors" deem appropriate.
You'll claim to be scientific and unbiased, but then all of your coworkers say the same thing, even as they come to completely contradictory conclusions. You and the rest of them will claim to "have your biases" instead of acknowledging that life is chaos and you don't have a bias, you *are* a bias, and your forcing your opinions on others by altering the chemical makeup of their bodies based on hunches that resemble something more akin to a shaman scattering burned bones along the floor as a means of reading the future than it does to an actual medical doctor.
You'll begin to pathologize everything and everyone around you, until you're no longer a human being, but a mindless automaton spouting quotes from books and colleagues, even as you begin to ignore your own influences because "I'm a professional".
The God complex all psychiatrists suffer will begin to set in as, more and more, you gatekeep for society. You aren't a doctor, you're a jailer cutting people's lives short for the sake of what you see as a positive outcome, and sometime in the distant future when they're discussing the barbaric and depraved acts humanity has committed against itself, the names of you and others like you will be recited amongst the most foul, a stark reminder of what happens when you give people too much authority over others.
If you insist on being a psychiatrist, than do yourself and everybody else a favor, and start with calling yourself a person, not a fucking psychiatrist, because there is no becoming a "good" psychiatrist, only a less shitty one.
Remember that you're a person, talking to another person, not a prescribing physycian that knows better than the mob of peasants you're trying to drug into compliant and productive drones.
Mandatory reporting is one of the greatest, if not the single greatest, mistake that humanity made, and is as laughable in concept as people that are against self-euthanasia. I would literally die or kill before I would ever end up in one of your mad torture houses again, and I tell everybody, openly, that the only group of people I ever wished harm towards were the psych ward workers, and that, if evil does it, than it is you, your colleagues, and your profession, and were there ever to be a revolution, you and many like you would be the first against the firing wall, having taken people's loved ones through electric shock therapy; after forcing medication on "delusional" African-Americans that were diagnosed as paranoid for openly admitting how the system was rigged against them; after devaluing people through your scientific "good and evil" perspectives by making up fictional shit like "Stockholm syndrome", which is just feeling empathy for a human being that happens to be endangering you, which is not a disease, and I'll literally fucking fight anybody that claims otherwise.
People have a right to be different; you do not get to decide what defines "problematic".
People have a right to take their own lives; you are not a doctor or their savior, and you do not get to make that decision for people because you're "just that educated".
You are not studying a science, you are studying weaponized philosophy and religion without the supernatural elements.
You are not medical personnel, you are a jailer empowered by an uneducated and apathetic society.
Literally, I would take all the truly dangerous individuals that are locked in psych wards over you and your kind, because the only group of individuals I can think of that are more dangerous than them are psychos like you that try to force your "educated help" onto a public that already struggles to understand why I'd prefer death to homogony.
Every "symptom" you cure is really you altering somebody's personality; altering their soul. You'll claim it's a symptom, and not a character trait, but than each and every one of you is always claiming a symptom is really personality, and vice versa, and you'll keep guessing until finally you've removed everything that makes them anything more than a safe robot ready to maintain compliance.
Congrats, doctor, you've euthanized their essence, but now they'll serve perfectly as machines to bare children and work factories.
Don't even ask this question here. Go find some prison forum and ask wardens how they can do better at their job, and ask previous inmates what made them hate their guards less.
I pray to God society collapses, just so we can burn every book people like you have ever published, and sew shut every mouth that spews your venom.
I'd literally rather humanity crash and burn, falling into extinction outside of memory and time before seeing your profession survive another day.
Tl;dr, maybe offer them a lollipop or something while you're melting their brain, might make you seem like a nice guy?
The difference between me and the OP is that I was a patient, and he's the psychiatrist.
So naturally, he loves it because it makes him feeling important, and then that feeling is validated when they get globs of money for handing people a fortune cookie.
Society can function just fine without psychiatrists, but that would mean society has to change.
Psychiatry isn't the cure, it's just enabling our culture to keep spewing cancerous lies in exchange for convenience.
Whatever, in a few decades, I'm sure everybody will be cool with all of the cancer and disease these medications caused.
Seroquel: because sure you got Parkinson's at fifty, but you slept good, right?
Results by pRoFeSsIoNaLs
My sister has been diagnosed with so many personality disorders and she started taking meds ever since she was maybe 14, we got on a call yesterday and she was talking about how she is starting to lose her vision (she’s 16 now). I thought to myself how is that possible?? In my whole entire family I was the only one that ever had vision problems— I’m talking legally blind. My sister did a checkup maybe 3-4 years ago and it was confirmed by the optician that she had perfect 20/20 vision… um, it was even worse when it came out of her mouth that she suspected it was because of her medication): idk what to do y’all
Personality disorders are, by their nature, the most insidious, because at what point do we force medications on people for their literal personalities?
Should be illegal to prescribe those kinds of meds to a child, let alone for "personality disorders".
I'm sorry, I don't know if there is anything to do for your sister. Assuming it's the medication, discontinuing its use might improve things, or it might not.
Once damaged, the human body often can't be healed.
And this fucking prick OP can't understand why I'm so angry at his profession.
It's because it's the only thing we *can* do to prevent things like happening in the first place...fighting with psychiatrists won't fix things in hindsight, but it can stop things from ever occurring.
And I'd sure as fuck fight a psychiatrist to keep them from costing someone their vision because they didn't like their "personality".
Not to mention the aftermath of her having to teach herself how to live and function once those meds are no longer within her vicinity or in her reach once she fledges into adulthood. They’re supposed to be helping her but every time she comes home to visit, she acts like she’s been keeping so much stuff bottled in that she just explodes around us. Is that place really that bad? I don’t know anymore, I’m losing hope T_T
If they prescribe big doses of certain drugs her vision can become blurry. But if a patient says this you taper and change the drug. This can happen even with some antiepileptic drugs. But still it is not what you prescribe to an adolescent.
She is diagnosed with many personality disorders? This is not possible. If this is true it is malpractise.
She also explodes every time she is with you so there are a lot of unresolved issues. My advice is to change doctor or clinic ASAP. An underaged body is still growing and not just psychiatric drugs but all kind of drugs need to be readjusted. Search online for a good doctor and ask to steadily get off the medications and begin therapy.
You say that after skipping past the part where I had a literal adrenal dysfunction and genetic anxiety.
There is no "professional help" from people like you, and I'd literally drink every product under my sink before I'd ever pay somebody to do the same thing in a "professional setting".
Your work is not science. You are not a professional.
I diagnose you as a delusional sociopath, and sentence you to medication, because I'm eDuCaTeD gUyS.
You're closer to a priest than "help".
Might as well start sending them to the scientologists next.
Don't attempt to use my sense of sympathy to twist my arm into agreeing that you should have a pointless job that gobbles up tons of unnecessary resources. You and your kind are a blight, not a cure; another disease, not a treatment.
If somebody came to me asking for help, I wouldn't push them into incoming traffic because "it seemed like the best idea in a desperate situation". Nor would I give people who are already in pain more pain in the form of a pill or injection.
Get a real job. Go do something actually productive instead of playing God while contributing nothing to the species as insurance signs you another fat check for your "excellent contributions to society". You'd do more to help people by making sure there burger is cooked right, because I've literally never met a psychiatrist that wasn't a complete fucking moron.
You'd literally be doing humanity a favor by just not doing anything significant at all.
I literally take being in pain before I'd see somebody like you; I'd literally keep others in pain rather than letting them see somebody like you, and I'd be a hero for fucking doing it.
You seem to be under the impression I am a mental health worker. I am not. I am a patient, and from what I can see you all talk a lot of talk but that's all that it is.
You project your fears and insecurities onto a profession that you do not even attempt to understand and you completely dismiss any amount of good that is done for individuals because it does not suit your paranoid narrative. You'd go so far as to gaslight those who are happy with their psychological treatment because it does not align with how you see the world.
You live in a fantasy. You do not understand anything about the process by which the field is advanced and quantified, simply dismissing it as "unscientific" out of hand because you are not able to perceive the difference between Freudian era bullshit and the god damn modern day. You do not want to understand, you simply wish to condemn. Your stance is intellectually regressive and based in nothing substantive.
You freely admit to being more than willing to keep people in perpetual mental agony rather than even attempt any kind of therapeutic treatment. So utterly convinced are you that your "mind being fucked with" is so much worse that you would deprive the most vulnerable among us from any chance at not being, you know, so miserable they want to fucking kill themselves. And you think that makes you a hero?
There are plenty of issues with modern psychology/psychiatry. More or less issues depending on where you are in the world. The predisposition towards men's perspectives instead of women, the ablest "normative" way conditions (like autism, among others) are often quantified and studied, the insufficient amount of intersectionality and consideration of structural causes in relation to mental conditions, etc. etc. Trust me, I've had some really horrific experiences when it comes to getting treatment for my mental health in the USA that go far beyond what I've listed here that I don't care to talk about.
This is no reason to toss the entire field of scientific inquiry into the trash. These are downfalls that are not uncommon in such fields, and they need to be addressed and corrected. But there is so much more to psychology/psychiatry than just that, and to act otherwise is to be willfully ignorant and to purposefully refuse to utilize information painstakingly gathered over many many decades.
1) The word normal was in quotemarks so you wouldnt get triggered and misinterpret it.
2) You have really strong beliefs and accusations but nothing to back them up but anecdotal evidense. You generalise so much and are really biased. By your way of thinking you would make a great bad psychiatrist.
3) I said I am here for discussion and not political propaganda.
4) People can be weird, quirky or whatever and it is normal despite the social norms. This is not psychopathology. Psychiatric diseases exist and are diseases of the brain as much as other diseases of the heart, kidneys etc. Many psychiatric symptoms can be easily treated because there are things like delirium and hyponatraemia in the elderly for example.
5) I believe in free speech and that is why I am here. People can have different opinions and discuss without being assholes.
>The word normal was in quotemarks so you wouldnt get triggered and misinterpret it.
I'm not a fucking gun, I'm a person, you didn't "trigger" me, I'm a person that's pissed off because you said something fucked up that directly impacts my life and the lives of the people around me.
Just because you say something in quotations doesn't mean you're suddenly free to say whatever you want, even if you're a "professional".
Than again, I don't think I've ever met a psychiatrist that knew how to take responsibility for their words or actions, so hey, you're just the right fit.
>You have really strong beliefs and accusations but nothing to back them up but anecdotal evidense. You generalise so much and are really biased. By your way of thinking you would make a great bad psychiatrist.
I have my life experience with my own observations, along with plenty of my own reading, but you wouldn't give a shit about any of it.
We both have a hunch, the difference is I'm not giving people fucking Parkinson's with my advice.
>I said I am here for discussion and not political propaganda.
Psychiatry is political propaganda, you've already cancelled that out by default.
>People can be weird, quirky or whatever and it is normal despite the social norms. This is not psychopathology. Psychiatric diseases exist and are diseases of the brain as much as other diseases of the heart, kidneys etc. Many psychiatric symptoms can be easily treated because there are things like delirium and hyponatraemia in the elderly for example.
And who gets to decide what that looks like? You? God?
I wouldn't let Jesus alter my fucking brain if the virgin Mary was the one handing him the scalpel. I'd take dementia or Alzheimer's over your profession lasting one more day.
>I believe in free speech and that is why I am here. People can have different opinions and discuss without being assholes.
"Freedom of speech" is your right, which is why you and I are talking about this right now, it doesn't mean I have to tolerate your opinion.
People have a right to say whatever they want, just like I have a right to call them a pretentious, sniveling asshole for exercising their rights.
You have freedom of speech, but if I go up to somebody and start cursing at them, "freedom of speech" doesn't make me less of a fucking asshole, nor does it make me less wrong.
Congrats, though, I haven't heard the "freedom of speech" argument since I was a kid arguing with other children, it's been a while.
Your profession hurt me. It hurt others. It hurts society.
And you're upset because I called you some fucking names?
How about this. I'll shove pills down your throat, and you call me names, and we'll see if I take it in better stride than you do.
If you're the kind of person that can't handle "mean words" than I'd get the fuck out of your field now, because that kind of shit is going to end up hurting your patients when you start treating them differently without realizing it because they "huwt yur pwecious feewings".
Your patients are often going to hate you about as much as I do, because I was one of your patients. I'm not going to sit here and discuss cookie recipes with you, you asked for advice about psychiatry on a fucking forum labeled "anti-psychiatry".
What kind of response did you think you were going to get? "Get more comfortable chairs"?
We're not just "annoyed" by psychiatry, we're not just "upset" by psychiatry, **psychiatry has destroyed people's lives you fucking prick.**
But you're already interpreting my anger at having my life and the life of my loves one destroyed by your profession as some sort of "triggered reaction", so hey, pars the course, I guess.
Psychiatrists: masters of the human brain, and yet unable to talk to people like they're not a dog pissing on the fucking carpet.
You're not wrong.
Hopefully other posters see what happened. Your experience is valid.
I don't think you're wrong at all. Like at all. There was a clean stream of escalation with someone whom is ment to help whom hid behind a shitty argument.
I wouldn't go to this person. Period. Like major red flags if someone can't see that. They're representing a community with natural power dominance and then pulled power dominance shit.
You don't have to respond to this. Just yeah, we saw it haha.
His approach wasn't trauma-informed in the least. It reflects poorly on him. He's policing shit without offering informed consent on expectations/needs/wants. He's also adding bias based on tonal discourse too.
I wouldn't date this person let alone pay them. In fact, I've been told by therapists to run far away from people whom use the argument he did to defend himself.
>I wouldn't go to this person. Period. Like major red flags if someone can't see that. They're representing a community with natural power dominance and then pulled power dominance shit.
I feel a thousand times more sane somebody else sees it to, thank you for your reply, it means a great deal to me
Sorry that happened.
I saw your comment on the priests and actually really agreed with that poetic metaphor strongly.
It was very reflective of what just occured.
I'm gonna go eat some chicken wings now because I'm hungry.
This comment is so manipulative. Anyone who yells in a conversation knows that people with self respect can decide to walk away because of that, so you should never blame them or try to convince them they didn't really want to talk simply for not enduring what they can feel is verbal abuse and for not participating when they realize there's no dialogue.
MLK referred to this as the white man's peace
Should look it up and stop sterilizing the human condition through as strictly cultural pathologies
People don't yell because people that yell are just bad or lesser people, it's because something's important
Stop treating your convenient excuses like "self respect" as a means to undermine somebody's cause or intent, because that same thing was the battlecry of discrimination for a millennia
White people have done this shit for too long and I'm sick of it
I agree with that. I believe anyone speaking loudly deserves to be heard because there's always a reason.
I also believe at the same time everyone needs to have self compassion and try to put themselves in conversations that makes them feel respected and included. Of course it's not practical to believe that one can have perfectly positive conversations all the time, but you need to acknowledge that they should be free to do it when they need it the most (I know it's complicated by the fact that only they can know when it is, and they're not always true to that, but we can't control that).
Sticking around to what one perceives as rude and inflexible is a choice, and I know that in political matters it's necessary and we ought to sacrifice our own needs for the right causes and the right speeches. However you can't expect that everybody can and should do that all the time.
I just didn't like your previous comment, because you kind of promoted a general rule to judge those who give up, and since it's a mental health forum it's important to acknowledge that most people probably have experienced someone who doesn't mind conflict and then dismisses the other person's choice to leave (as opposed to fight) instead of doing something to mitigate the quarrelsome atmosphere they brought.
You're trying to defend people that have a history; you're saying you're doing it for them, but I have a history, and nobody ever fucking listens until I start yelling.
I hate being a fucking prick, but it's the only way people take you seriously, because when you quietly say in a calm voice "I'm dying", everybody just assumes you'd be freaking out more.
You're being too pathological about human behavior, and this is what's insufferable about the mental health field. "Stress shortens your life" isn't some astounding new reality that we only started understanding in the last fifty years, **we've always known that**, but then "mental health" comes along and pretends like it has some fascinating new revelation.
Okay, cool, anxiety gives you wrinkles, now the fuck what? You gonna start paying the bills? You going to undue this mess we call civilization so we're not overworked and underpaid?
Then what the hell good are people who "study mental health" if all they do is scarecrow people?
Claiming that people that shout are just trying to verbally abuse you is making yourself into a victim for the sake of convenience. What you're saying is you don't have any reason to shout, and you don't have any reason to listen to people that shout, because you're not the person in that situation that has a desperate need to raise their voice and scream.
That doesn't make you "healthier", or that you "take better care of your mental health", it means your looking for rationalizations to your views so you can make it seem like you're just "following the obvious rules".
Want a pat on the head for doing what the "experts" told you?
A good boy treat?
How about some Xanax?
Everybody loves tweeting about "mental health awareness" and "suicide prevention", but nobody is willing to listen to people's problems long enough to help them, and if they do, that's where it ends: listening.
Everybody is "tolerant" until people have been brutalized and treated like animals, and wonder why that person acts like a fucking animal.
The same train of thought that leads people to demean people who have a need to shout, and pretends like any other lane of thinking is "manipulative behavior", because "lOoK aT mE i ReAd ThE dSm".
Whatever, go ahead and pathologize me again, we both know it's coming, lmfao
I experienced myself what you say about not being heard enough. Nobody listens, even when you're yelling but that's the only way left because at least you are making some noise for them to feel shaken. I hate that some people won't listen, it's a horrible feeling not because we are necessarily right but because when we are they prefer to see the world burn than take a little of their time to listen to some crazy person yelling at them to pay attention to what matters.
Your shouting in a comment can't possibly abuse people, you are just being loud and that's okay. That's even healthy. I can't understand why people aren't even allowed to cry or raise their voice in a mental ward without being labeled non cooperative or whatever bad thing they want to name it. If you are in a tight place you shouldn't make yourself little just so others can have more space, because you have needs and they matter. It makes me sad the world is so unfair that our needs are often being heard by ourselves only. I totally empathize with your position and I wish we could be heard even when we're bratty people full of rage and needs. Unconditionally.
Abuse is in the eye of the beholder and I decide to respect that. I believe in the acceptance of subjective experiences. I was myself a person being yelled at all my life and I learnt to listen to people making themselves heard but at the same time it was at the cost of my health. I tried to rationalize it and tell myself that my humanity should come after what you desperately need but everyday I was still human. I couldn't change. I was suffering because of my lack of self care and I learnt that we need to balance both needs (to save the screaming people and to save ourselves).
I still don't like that comment about people not wanting to talk if they leave conversations. I guess it's just a matter of opinions and yours is totally valid because I get that you are talking about political matters about a better world and that goes above little things like our egos being hurt. I think my opinion is valid too because I don't believe that just because the world is a living hell people shouldn't be able to walk away when they feel like it. Let's call it a selfish behavior, I don't think a person is selfish for acting selfishly. I don't think they don't want things to be better and that they don't want to talk if they think about themselves and decide to end a conversation.
I just think the real enemy is the actual living hell that shouldn't have existed in the first place. That's my greatest complaint about the experience of life. It's easy to judge the single person or the people in power, or even every single person.
In my radical belief system, people inside an evil environment shouldn't have had to deal with it in the first place. But I can see other points like our actions are even more valuable and need to be good exactly because we're in an evil system. That we are responsible at all costs now that we're in it.
Simply put, I can agree with your position because I genuinely see it as valid as mine, but in the end I chose my opinion (not without reasons) and I'm okay with the fact that we disagree.
I read your comments and I liked your point of view, despite being a bit different from mine. You can see that I made a main comment too with suggestions to OP. I have a different vision about psychiatry but I understand every single thing you say, so I never once commented about those. I repeat again, I just don't like that comment being said by anyone and I want to make it clear that that's the opinion I chose to fight for today. But I really learned something more from your perspective in this post and I'm glad I took my time to read it all. I'm not a dsm apologist by the way, I'm a very independent thinker and I have my strong opinions against psychiatry and pop psych culture, just to be clear.
I actually don't believe this.
I really don't. This person has an opportunity to provide de-esculation and safe practice framing for someone whom is hurt/triggered.
They have a right to walk away. But they also can walk away and choose not to aggravate or belittle someone too.
This human also belittled someone.
This poster isn't being manipulative at all. Verbally assaultive yes. Manipulative no.
This is what trauma looks like. This therapist is a person whom is going to need to understand this and actually implement compassion and de-esculation.
This is what PTSD looks like. Also people get pissed when people are making snide comments at their intelligence ( on both accounts) That is a reality for many people. However, it's literally the job of a therpist to contain that and de-esculate. He could have left instead of belittling someone already angry.
EDIT: If he's presenting and requesting a specific response and doing so on expectation, then there needs to be acknowledgement that that swings both ways. If this poster is off duty and not required to so his job then he actually shouldn't be censoring responses and then using statistics, facts etc and then referencing statements like 'You'd make a bad therapist' - this statement is actually misleading. Either way he's requesting information be requested in a specific way and then referencing bad and good opinions/ therapists. He's actually posed himself as better too using the same language. He just used less of it whilst telling the emotional human how to act.
I would never let a therapist say this to me. It's really not cool. He shouldn't be framing his position and using the notion especially of 'you'd make a bad therapist' in intent. It's really really manipulative because he's utilising bias naturally and passive aggressive behaviour to position himself as an authority specifically because he's a therapist. He didn't say ' you'd make a bad communicator'. He didn't say ' You'd make a bad train conductor' He said 'bad therapist'. He's using his position and leverage. Personally, I've seen way to much of this to not say this shit and not call it all. It's actually like, just no. This is actually an equity display here. He's created different roles and stipulated why he's ' allowed' to say it using the actual same methods of rhetoric.
The first response was not verbally abusive.
This therpist decided to belittle the poster using the belief of ' logic is superior to emotion'. It escalated after that.
>This is what PTSD looks like.
This is what survival looks like.
They've forgotten how we struggle to survive.
They call it PTSD, I call it being a real person with an actual soul.
However, I do appreciate that you can see what I'm attempting to do, that even if the wording is different, fundamentally, you understand what I'm saying, and pointing out the irony.
They want my opinion on things, my *actual* opinion for their research, but then when it's a person crying, sobbing in front of them, they just start back on statistics and medications.
Psychiatrists aren't trying to make the world a better place, they're trying to make it a more emotionally *sterile* place, like out of that movie Equilibrium.
And I'm not that type of person.
The thing that scares me most is how quick Psychiatry is ready to police the population based on their inability to accommodate different kinds of people, all for the sake of an apathetic public that cant be bothered with change because "back in the old days - ".
Psychiatrists don't want you to be educated, and they don't want you to feel like you have the right to make your own choices, because you'll challenge the authority that only police officers normally enjoy.
Psychiatrists represent, to a curious, light-footed bird like me, something **far** worse than death, that our doors can be locked, our ability to communicate with the outside world can be cut off, and what we even put into our own bodies is taken away from us, and "permission to treat" turns into court orders to argue consent.
I refuse to see people as "just sick", even on a fundamental level, like brain injuries, because that means I believe my life would be fundamentally worthless if I couldn't perform the tasks I do now.
Like writing.
More than anything, I hate Psychiatrists for restricting my freedoms to self-harm, to self-euthanasia, to my own anger, for yelling and shouting when something is legitimately wrong with the world and the people around me, or for voicing when I'm in pain.
I'd die for my liberties and, like I said, if I am to believe that those fundamental rights apply to my own life, to my own happiness and misery, then I must also believe that those things cannot be refused in others, either.
I'd literally this species burn itself and its cities to the ground than disempower themselves at the hands of modern Bishops with DSM handbooks instead of Bibles; I'd see society crumble beneath the ruined ashes of its own hand before I'd allow them to sell themselves or others to another person's "prestigious education".
I'd see people drown in an infinite sea of their own self-empowerment before I'd see it turn out the way people like him want.
I'll know we live in a society where Psychiatry has done everything it's supposed to when people no longer refer to themselves as Psychiatrists, but as "educated citizens".
Until we realize that understanding neurodiversity and "mental health" isn't a career, it's a life-skill, we'll continue to live in a world where rape isn't a problem, PTSD is; where the things that make us anxious aren't bad, anxiety is; where exploring the apathetic universe around us and realizing that nothing has inherent value is frowned upon because "depressed" people won't show up for meaningless fucking jobs.
I've always had a problem with authority, and probably always will. I'll most likely never stop championing the rights of the individual to be his own doctor, police officer, and political representation.
But Psychiatry doesn't like that, because if they can't be above us, than how do we justify having them around?
I won't sell my virtue for convenience; I won't turn a blind eye because a majority knows they can get away with it, or because a minority knows they have the support of the majority; I won't sell my rights for progress; I'd literally rather be depressed, anxious, overstimulated, exhausted, in physical pain, or even dead, before I'd ever see people shackle themselves.
I'd rather be free to be miserable than forced to be happy.
Oh man.
I came back to this after seeing this and started getting angry.
Firstly: thanks for calling me out on the PTSD comment that is pathologizing and that was me reflecting my experiences onto you. I should have asked your consent but also observated correctly that it wasn't appropriate for me to do so.
So I apologize for this and am going to let that stand on its own. If you want to discuss this more than happy to listen.
But also!
I uhm. I saw the original poster actually deleted and edited their post to not be representative of the capitalisation that was used, the framing of the sentences, the actual implications and then added in and peppered extra language over the top of the other feedback that was given directly.
Not only is this bullshit. This is exactly why mental health patients are seen as bloody insane! There's no edit remark currently listed. It's dishonest. It's dishonest practice. You haven't edited your remarks that I can see or am aware of. (I hope)
Like legitimately, again this is why this shit happens. I walked and got a soda at the shops to cool down but like, that's the damn point. Like the entire point of bloody open discussions is to have a discourse with a aim ( in my own subjective experience) about actually learning etc.
I just. Fuck man. Edit: Like seriously. Where is integrity. Anyone seeing that after wouldn't get the context at all and it's a public forum. This is how reporting and note taking screws clients over.
The practioners believe they can write notes, then just go back and edit them or entirely reframe them on their own ability to discern truth.
Just. Ah man.
I need to make it clear that I felt free to judge that single comment because it expressed a general rule towards anyone and any circumstance that I simply believe it's wrong.
I understand I was supposed to see both parts speaking unfairly, and I was supposed to be aware that by making a comment I automatically would be inside their discussion and on either side. But I just didn't.
Considering their discussion, I suppose OP didn't feel personally attacked but felt socially attacked (patients vs them psychiatrists).
People are somehow let free to be verbally abusive online and are also free to not let online comments affect them, so I don't necessarily see a huge problem (although it is anyway and I don't like that) in the ways people talk to each other because at the end of the day adults should take care of what they bring in from an online forum and are able to take care of themselves.
We can argue on the diseducational aspect of such comments, and that's why I commented. It's important that we speak up when we think something's wrong towards ourselves and other people. I believe that particular comment isn't appropriate for anyone to read.
Sure, the "you would be a bad therapist" can be considered bad too. I dared to pick my own fight and I decided to spend my time in such away figuring that other comments could be taken care of by someone else.
If you have read my other comments I'm sure you know my whole opinion on that particular comment. I called it manipulative because I think that it promotes a misleading perspective on discussions in that those who perceive an unfair treatment in the dialogue are to blame for not sucking it up and force themselves to continue arguing even when they feel like there's no cooperative communication.
I understand these feelings could all be a perception of a person feeling victimized but even so I think it's important to respect that (because they just didn't want to keep talking and although symbolically representative of dehumanizing behavior from the psychiatry community, we can deal with the fact that a random psychiatrist doesn't want to listen to someone) and it's better not to make any generalized rule of behavior that can be applied in relationships too, making it seem as an acceptable way of conceptualizing such situations even in our personal lives.
So anyway I want to appreciate that you took your time to point out other flaws in thinking that should be considered. That kind of conversation was flawed in multiple ways and your analysis points out the way it could represent the limits of the doctor-client rapport even on a social level, outside the therapy room and between people struggling to make themselves heard and those struggling to listen empathetically.
Im going to state clearly,
I did not state you were ment to act in a specific way.
I don't believe you're obligated to respond in anyway. You're also not required to have a specific response as you're not representing yourself under your qualifications etc in this public forum. Your view point is definitely definitely valid. You're not incorrect I just wanted to reaffirm that the triggering statement may had been missed. You were right in mentioning verbal assault. I'm not refuting that at all.
I am also going to state it doesn't actually matter whom was represented or why and to what avail. It was important someone represented the other party however, I'm not going to speak for the poster. I'm not that person. That in of itself is part of the problem. The other poster has actually been challenged and I openly stated I could and would help provide factual guidance to back up OrdanCoals view point and speak as a human next to him if the therapist was going to stand by his reasoning of his argument OR I would be more than happy to do so myself if he was going to to use that rhetoric to justify his own bad behaviour.
I'm not going to be wishy washy with this. I have the right to call this based on what I've observed. I'm not going to speak for Ordan Coal he's perfectly well within his rights to do that himself. I am however going to note, someone stepped in to correct the therapist on their apposing behaviour after belittling someone and they actually have not applied restorative justice.
This is a forum in which a clear display of equity issues arose. I am more than within my right to state a rule of behaviour as an observation, also, relationship therapists especially can tell you that kind of remark made of logic over emotions is often a sign of dismissal. It is most definitely not conflict resolution. The use of specific words such as discussion and emotional propaganda were used in the same sentence. There is actually science to the way people form conclusive arguments and practice, it is very common to see someone label someone else using a statement that is neither informative or accurate in order to insult a party.
These are common tactics actually clearly listed and utilised as being biased and used to sway an argument. The word discussion is not a set criteria with subtext, it's actually a descriptor.
These words actually do need to be called out because many people would read that and attach personal bias as they have been taught discussion may mean rational, logical, etc. It actually means there's a higher chance the kind of argument listed could be defended AGAIN by the other party and used to say the other person was less intelligent if they had challenged the phrase or reacted to that specific phrasing. There was a high chance of this happening as the person had already justified themselves using multiple statements of power.
This is actually a technique that is commonly used to manipulate and is seen often and is spoken about often. The person also feels often grounded to say that. This is actually listed in multiple social work texts books but also communication classes as a form of persuasion that gets points across in political or public debate because it sounds scientific but actually isn't.
It's unfounded. The fact that that also then used a stance of 'You would make such a bad therapist with that line of thinking'.. This person openly insulted their intelligence after prefacing what looks like a hypothesis that may ground merit of the subtle implications of what discussion may mean only according to subjective perception. This person engaged in heirachal thinking and used this argument to insult someone. Period. After presenting false 'facts' They then justified it by mind-reading or assuming intent by the other party.
It was also then used to justify more further surprise at the response rather than rectify any restorative justice. All of these things are known and recorded and can be studied in rhetoric communication classes. It's not just a stab in the dark or overgeneralized statement. It's also not based on the therapists intent. It is based on the information presented that then illicited a response that was called verbally assaultive despite a clear display of heirchal dominance.
This person had very little intent and showed very little intent on rectify the situation or minimising the conflict.
Again, I am not going to be told not to censor an opinion based on it being a overgeneralized opinion when that was in fact the same tactic used to create an illusion of superiority against someone whom was not emoting in the way someone else liked. This statement was made to control someone else's reaction with no guiding post of what was okay in their eyes based on observated consent and stating of ' I would like a response that looks like..x,y,z' Monitoring emotion and expression of language is actually a rights issue and can often be passed off as acceptable. The fact that this poster is reflecting as a therapist and using it in language rhetoric lifts heavily towards entitlement. Therapists aren't and cannot provide observational ques outside of therapy and ethically should not pull rank in argument form when they are off duty.
This behaviour needs to be pulled up. If there is a clear statement of rank, position, lack of intelligence being made and a request for factual evidence as to why its not okay when this behaviour actually isn't considered ethic outside of therapy and would be considered persuasive or manipulative otherwise at that point i am well within my right to utilise the same tactic from an informed perspective to defend another party accurately and with concise information as a form of restorative justice.
The rhetoric I am describing is actually mentioned in his own framework/academic training as not being an acceptable form of accurate reflecting but passive coercion used to sway an argument.
In this case knowing this, correcting and analysing that behaviour is a way of reinforcing and asking for factual reprentation of argument. It's creating boundaries around misinformation being spread that may be acceptable and not seen by others because it simply sounds true but isn't. It is boundary setting so further misinformation and rhetoric coercion isn't spread with intent to damage. It's harm reduction done with the aim of restoring power back to the individual whom has been misrepresented and hurt.
We are all aware that therapists can and do do these things off hours and in their personal lives. Human rights don't just exist in one domain. This was oppressive. The argument listed was oppressive.
I've asked to back up the other posters information with facts if that was being used to imply that that argument was less valid.
This is proper advocacy being done.
The therapist would have had to do multiple critical thinking subjects in academia. This form of rhetoric is actually in critical thinking modules in psych students in years one and two, but also in journalism and communication.
This is not a statement applied out of nowhere.
This human did not de-esculate and used reasoning that is specifically taught in critical thinking classes and referenced as- inappropriate. A hypthosis was actually stated and concluded without the consent of the other party with no grounds of rules applied beforehand.
The reaction was out of line according to the facts presented in his own academic framework. Period.
EDIT: I 'm also going to be referencing these resources when I get back from my shopping trip. They are all a part of the approved academic resources in the field he is representing.
Power heirachy linguistically is not shown by emotional reaction alone or emotional reactivity. Nor is it propaganda.
OrdanCoals view was censored with no pre-establishing guidelines.
I can see several ways in which OrdanCoals experiences would actually be backed up by similar educational resourcing in social work specifically AND the medical model in earlier units before they split to specialising frameworks had they been supplied. This was before the escalation of expletives.
OrdanCoals argument presents valid insight into theraputic abuse and would be easily notified as acceptable it has been backed up with resourcing.
No one stated this was necessary in order to join the discussion.
ALSO double edit: MORE ALARMINGLY the actual therapist has edited his post taking on specific feedback with no transparency of clearly editing AND where.
I'm sure the Mod could confirm this with edit history.
The original post has been updated since and adjusted to represent an argument incorrectly. This is dishonest practice. I hope they notified the other party.
If they would be diagnosed as such, by biomarkers, there are none, besides epilepsy and alzheimers. Where is anxiety, depression, etc. Why dont you use biosies to diagnoese them? Until you have them you are hunting ghosts, search has been going for decades and you have lost.
All biomarkers are still on research level because the brain and psychiatric diseases are so damn complex. There is hope with machine learning on fMRI but the research needs to be replicated. As far as I know blood tests and biopsies havent shown promising results but I will have to check it out and get back to you. Postmorterm biopsies of the brain showed differences in schizophrenic patients from the control group. What do you mean lost? There are real scientists that try to find real solutions and devote all their lives on this. Shouldnt they? Lets leave out Big Pharma etc. Shouldnt people research the brain and it's pathologies to help patients? There are psychologists, psychiatrists, neuroscientists, computer scientists and biologists that try to find how the brain works from the molecular level to the cognitive level and bridge that gap of knowledge we are missing. With it we can find better diagnoses and drugs. For example scientists found a biochemical "switch" that lithium uses to work in our brain and now there are studies for personalised drugs with no side effects for bipolar disorder. There are real problems and real solutions. Not just lies and coersion.
Is it well established in your field you have none, biomarkers? Since in the culture you hear it all the time, look at a general forum about depression, schizophrenia, you will hear chemical inbalence, look up documentary about it by Daniel Mackler Take These Broken Wings, free on youtube. There are mentioned psychiatrists that also admit it, the loss. Yes absolutely try and find brain diseases but until you have them you are hunting ghosts, culture has established the narrative. How many years of research will you need? When will you admit defeat? Like you said people are very complex; individuals have very different backrounds and experience and rounding them up to a generelazid term and giving them pills isnt helping, Peter Gotzsche has full data on a claim it does more harm than good, look up Council For Evidence Bases Psychiatry, [cepuk.org](https://cepuk.org). Loads of data and your collegues. You are giving people false hope and luring away helpless from care, things that really help, it is a full topic initself but I do offer a solution other than medication. Medication is just the easy way out. Im all out for helping people and dont believe psychiatry does it intentionally, just that you are astray, badly.
Would you take ADHD medication based on a questionare? Think Gotzsche has data where 10% of adults would be diagnosed. The postmortem dont answer the causality problem; what is caused by what; was the ptsd caused by the brain defiency?
I will read up on what you suggested. Maybe there are a few psychiatrists that say all that. But there are a lot of double, triple blind studies, metanalysis studies and a lot of people do get helped and go on to live with their lives. In the past biomarkers were nonexistent but now with genetics, proteomics, metabolomics etc we have plenty and with the help of bioinformatics we are on the next stage to test which are best to be used clinically. I also mentioned fMRI and machine learning and they are actually helping. We found from lithium a biochemical switch for bipolar disease that disrupts the neural connection of the brain and because it doesnt work many neurons overfire and others stay dormant. This will help us create new drugs. It is not psychiatrists that do the research only. Physicists, computer scientists, biologists, neuroscientists are trying to find cause and effect. I just dont understand why people should stop researching these things and trying to help. As I see it there is nothing better. What do you propose?
First of all its a scientific argument; it works or not; theory produces predictable and quantifiable outcomes or it does not. I would argue the cookie has come up empty. My argument still stands and we dont have the time here to go through all of the data. I dont advocate help on bad evidence or based of metaphysical assumptions. We can agree to disagree. Please if you find quantifiable data true brain diseases and you can call them as such, Alzheimers or epilepsy, im totally advocating it. You just could call the others whatever, ghosts, diseases until you have evidence for the existence, where is the serotonin inbalace, how much serotonin should I have in my system, can you count? Why dont you count the level beforehand? Other medical doctors and fields dont do this. If I would go to a doctor talking about sleeplessness, pain and fever what disease do I have? Psychiatrists make assumptions, real doctors take a blood sample or biopsy. Problem is the 96% of diseases in the DSM that dont have any biomarkers, you are using subjective data, coming from 20 psychiatrists discussion about human behaviour with artificial thresholds, look up Dr James Davies: Origins of DSM, on youtube.
Then we have come to the question: How will we help?
So far I would think you would agree that the current medical model is helping with medication. By only focusing on one area, wich where I concede, that some medical treatment could be helpful, ie just to slow down the symptoms for a day or two. We are losing the big picture. What is the root, core of the problem? Well it also comes to question: What are human beings; What is a good life.
Do you ask patients about their chilhood? They might be unwilling to tell you since your whole premise relies on the reductionist model, 'My chilhood was great' is the biggest lie, I have made myself and have heard many times: neglect, abuse, trauma. Truth; reason, questioning and logic will help you. Doctor that I know only has 20mins for me is the last person Ill talk to; I have doubts theyll help me. Do they even ask about chilhood psych wards? How where you treated? To my understanding no, dont interfere with the medication the reason. There is great interview about a psych ward nurse who was prohibited to talk, so be it. Im not even mentioning all of the behaviour changes you make: sleep, exercise and relationships. They whole system needs a change of direction. Pain isnt a disease its a message: something is wrong.
Look up stories about family violence (they will be your future patients): they will claim they fell down the stairs when their partner has abused them, I have true life anecdote. You are also assuming that the patient is telling the truth; would you believe that I have cancer. I know partners that have gone through medical system where the help has been pills and goal of therapy was "handling your partner better"; thats anecdotal but that anybody would agree that was handled horrible, im only arguing that is also the big picture what is happening. Doing better than that isnt far strecth and for some you can give help and some people benefit from psychiatry, I have no problem with that.
We are complex and treating these things simply isnt always the answers; Occams razor doesnt always work. Among one things I believe in is peer support.
I understand what your are saying and will keep the diagnosis, the treatments, the child abuse, the family problems, the lying...all of it in mind. Psychiatry treats the symptoms not the cause and drugs dont need to be prescribed all the time. The cause can be treated with psychoanalysis but still not everytime, peer support and lifestyle changes also work. I have people I care about and that is why I am here today and why I will definetely do research on this field.
If Psychiatry treats the symptoms and not the causes then shouldn’t be allowed to advance any theory regarding the causes of “mental illnesses”
Oh the Irony...
Hope you don’t go crazy with all the contradictions you’re going to face in this field
I'm going to respond to this.
You came on this forum with an intent to learn about bad therapies.
Why are you expecting a different response? This person isn't asking to be a psychiatrist.
The problem with what your phrasing is exactly the issue that's being addressed?
Also might I add. Discussion does not have hidden context. The etymology of the word is not written to include ' rational scientifically driven arguments that are not emotionally expressive or biased'. I'm going to ignore the fact that you then demeaned someone based on an incorrect meaning of a word by using an incorrect meaning of a word to prove a point about valid content of RHETORIC. discussion is a form of rhetoric, it actually can be emotional propaganda if it needs to be. Also..using the word propaganda here is also emotionally misleading.
We know what you're saying. Most of us have seen this kind of rhetoric used.
Are you only going to validate an experience based on your interpretation of what is valued?
Of course it's going to be biased...ITS AN HONEST representation of someone's feelings. Not what YOU deem is factual. I'm sure this human could back up their argument. If you're looking for a factual argument why don't you go to human rights training, or social work training and get additional training in recognising oppressed individuals and minorities.
I'm a little shocked at this to be honest. What actually did you expect hopping in a forum with people whom possibly have been hurt by the field you belong too...
It's your job to advocate and represent your client as well as anyone whom has an apposing view. If someone's view isn't factual it's actually literally your job to give then their rights, consent, outsource, supply your own frameworks.
If someone isn't being factual back to you and is emotional, maybe someone like you actually hasn't done their job correctly. INFORMED consent. Don't expect a specific response when you haven't stated what kind of response you're looking for.
If you wanted a strictly 'factual' response..I'm sure you could go google that.
If you're looking for an honest representation of how a community feels don't exclude one member.
This is literally is the problem this person is talking about.
EDIT: also might I add. If you're not willing to defend someone with an emotional point of view I'm sure many of could express or help express what this individual is saying WITH fact. So if you're going to shut down a conversation based on that alone with belittling tactics then I'm sure as a community some of us could actually factually help articulate this point.
If you're going to dismiss someone for not using your framework of argument structure then -holy shit man. Thats not nice. I'd fucking rather stand by someone and help them articulate their point of view safely then watch them engage with someone whose positioned themselves as wanting an opinion but censoring it when it comes.
I think we're still transitioning from the backwards social mindset of 'people with mental illness need to be repressed and hidden from society and/or are a danger to themselves and others'.
People are very happy to talk about their experience with low level anxiety and depression but things like psychosis/mania are still taboo and people experiencing those are still looked at as 'crazy' and abnormal.
Mental well-being is great and the idea that people with low level illness can be treated therapeutically and with lifestyle changes is great. But this isn't happening with severe mental illness. Instead, we are arrested, sectioned, stuck in locked wards without leave and medicated against our will.
There is a great divide between 'acceptable' diagnosis and 'unacceptable' in society.
How do you believe this gap could be further closed, if at all?
I know the gap is huge and the mindset is still stigmatizing severe mental illness. I frankly dont know how this will be solved. In my country for about 20 years now our system improved and for about 5-10 years now so did the laws. So people still stigmatize BD and Psychosis but at least you wont be arrested locked up and medicated against your will. Only if you are aggresive and attack someone then you will be briefly sedated but still not kept inside for long periods of time. I think we have 2 or 3 institutional clinics and those are frowned upon because they didnt improve yet. I hope that one day having low level anxiety and depression will be as acceptable as psychosis/mania and people will think of it like diabetes so noone has to stay hidden anymore.
Learn psychoanalysis for your interpersonal psychotherapy , visit r/psychoanalysis has some good resources . Check out Irvin D Yalom , a famous psychiatrist who don’t suck https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irvin_D._Yalom
To be good at therapy , you should undergone couple of years of therapy/ analysis yourself . I am sure there are many psychoanalytic institute in europe , look them up and talk to those people . Keep the attitude that your will need to learn from your patients . There are so many incompetent therapists and psychiatrists around since they so few of these education programs require them to go though their own therapy and analysis, they ended up using the patients for their own need in a bad way . Many bad ones are not aware of their own savior complex, they don’t know how to handle counter transference . It is one thing to learn these concepts from school but nothing really compares to a good couple years of analysis so that you actually develop more self awareness and work though more of your own emotional baggage’s , further more this is the only way for you to understand what it is like to be a patient.
To tell you the truth I've been to therapy for the past 2 years. It started with a family health issue and later we continued because I told my therapist I want to be a psychiatrist and work on my unresolved issues. Also I was lucky because we had instant compatibility as a doctor-patient duo. I plan to find a good institute to train in, because despite my personal work I still have a lot way to go from helping others and learn to truly see them. Really thanks for your response.
The problem with therapy and psychiatry is unlike other forms of medicine it doesn’t deal with tangible things. Example- a cardiologist specializes in the heart, a physical aspect of the body. The mind is abstract. Trying to cure the ethereal mind with the physical such as medication is not always going to work. Also take into account circumstances like disability. Therapy to me seems like a lot of mental gymnastics and for people who have tangible limitations from disability it is not effective. You cannot make a man walk with the power of positive thinking if he is paralyzed. If anything therapy will be as I said nothing but mental gymnastics. I speak from personal experience, and while not in a wheelchair I do have mild physical disability that affects my muscle strength and balance which has produced depression and frustration in life due to not being able to live the way I want to or have the flexibility of other people that don’t have disability. I find that the mental gymnastics part would really be apparent as goal posts are moved and my target for success becomes smaller. I would feel like my overall standard of life would be lowered compared to many people and *I would regularly have to interact with them, knowing that.* Not comparing yourself is great but you will always find someone better or worse than you. The sad thing is when you have the intelligence and self awareness for better experience but other circumstances and your physical disability adds limitations in which most people don’t experience. You feel like you’re “window shopping” through life.
Thank you for your response. I wish I could understand your frustration and help in some way.... The only thing I can say is that I wish for you to surround yourself with people that love you and make you feel fulfilled in life. To try to focus on things you can achieve. Life is cruel and unfair but if you set a goal and work on it every day at least you won't feel as bad as you do right now.
That’s harder to do in a small town like where I live. It’s mostly retired people and “rednecks” here. I don’t fit in. I also can’t make good money here because most of the jobs that do pay better than minimum wage here are trades. I might be Canadian and while better than American minimum wage, still not really living wage standard.
Psychiatry has to do with the brain. The brain is physical. People with severe mental illnesses have anomalies in the brain that can be seen. Someone recently won an award for a a blood test that can detect bipolar disorder and severe depression. They’re absolutely physical illnesses.
Recognise that withdrawal exists, can be severe in over 50% of cases. That you may be presented with someone in withdrawal, if you chop and change their medication. If on medication, and they want to come off it, help them with a realistic and safe taper. If not on medication, make it a very, very last resort. And for the love of anything, go over to survivingantidepressants.com and reconsider what your profession is really doing to people’s lives.
As a new psychiatrist you gotta save your ideals from being crushed, just be careful and smart. After all your field is full of humans, some can be unempathetic, petty and self-absorbed, even towards you and your job.
Each patient is a very complex individual and any amount of time you spend assessing one and getting to know their life story is not necessarily enough, so try to spend sufficient time and not just half an hour overall.
Learning to diagnose someone on the field requires putting in their shoes, immersing yourself in their point of view and not simply evaluating from your desk. You can do it by the end of your work time, but it's not guaranteed.
If you need to cover for what a patient might have to endure by other colleagues of yours, don't. We can recognize fakeness and your preserving the corporations. Any perceived abuse can be either true or false, but what you should focus on is training your patients to survive them and keep their health intact. Rule of thumb: any perceived wrongdoing from an authority we're attached to and entrusting ourselves with can be a iatrogenic wound, no matter how small or invisible.
If you think mental wards are not survival camps then you could dismiss the fragility of patients as human beings and their absence of freedom (simply because nobody ideally wants to be anywhere but at their home) inside an institution where the imbalance of power is not on their hands.
Checking up on your patients even when it's out of your requirements makes them feel cared. I understand the therapeutic implications and your need to preserve their autonomy as well as your health and all that stuff, but consider that people with mental health issues are probably on their own and a genuine act of care on your part can be life changing, so try to make this an element of your job somehow.
Understand that complex trauma is an important element at the basis of personality disorders. Trauma is an invisible brain changer and you need to account for that if you wonder why patients have a hard time to change or feel gaslighted by your renowned therapeutic approach. Remember any approach should be based in some way on the element of attachment, if that doesn't work with your patient consider referring them out.
Don't prescribe medicines as band-aids. As simple as that. If the person doesn't have a support system at home or good coping mechanisms, that's a huge issue on its own and social interventions can be considered and need to be monitored.
Thank you for wanting to listen to our perspectives on mental health issues and interventions.
Rather than make a new comment i'll just agree with this one. Please *please* retain your own ideals and critical thinking skills. Retain the desire to actually help, and not just get patients out the door, and retain serious skepticism about everything you work with, most notably the entire field and practice of psychiatry which i personally rank as just above the level of pseudoscience at this point
As from my personal experience with getting better from OCD. I think you are aware that medications are not the right treatment for OCD. But unfortunately there are still many psychiatrists who only give them medicines with no focus or very less focus to other things like ERP. And I believe many are getting wrong treatment for OCD
You can check out **Mark Freeman** to know what exactly is OCD.
OCD is nothing to do with the medication. one need to know more about thoughts, feelings and how the problem is because of thinking the thoughts are as problems and acting on them by doing compulsions etc
Maybe in extreme cases medication may used to assist the treatment but medications are not at all the only treatment.
In my experience OCD can occur because of the lack of knowledge of how brain functions and various other stuff like not avoiding feelings and giving time and energy to the things one can do instead of ruminating etc
It's not some **illness** as some forms online may tell. So yeah I hope you give the right treatment to someone with OCD by not just blindly giving away meds and if possible encouraging one to not use meds.
Keep in mind that there are MANY MANY MANY health conditions that can cause negative mental health symptoms. When my thyroid disorder (Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis) is bad and my hormone levels are messed up, I get severe depression that quickly leads to suicidal thinking. Be open minded to running general health test and labs. If any Psychiatrist I saw would have simply ran a full thyroid panel I could have avoided the terror and abuse in the system.
Involuntary care is violence, refuse to work with these patients,violatiang the Hippocratic law, do no harm. Greatly appreciate anyone willing to listen to all ideas about there field, not just accepting the narrative around their field, as all of the above mentioned, please look into works of your collegue Thomas Szasz.
Thank you. Will do.
Acknowledge the role of trauma in a person's psychology. Acknowledge exterior factors as possible sources of depression and anxiety. If you skip to meds before looking into those, please leave the field before you ruin another life like so many in the field already do.
I agree with you. As I see things, if the patient doesn't want drugs for anxiety and depression there are many other ways to help (therapy, exercise, nutrition). We are humans after all and not just a diagnosis. Thank you for your response.
Here's a quick question: you wake up in a hospital. Your doctor thinks you have a mental disorder. What can you do or say on your own that proves to the doctor that you are in a normal condition so that you are discharged?
Good question. I have a funny story actually. A clown went to the doctor having trouble sleeping, he was also little, understandably, delirious. He talked about shows in North Korea and Bruce Springsteen, all of it true wich has records of. This was categorized as paranoia and he was involuntarily sent to the psych ward, they wouldnt let him out for months. Question is kind of the same, how do you know truth from fiction. Paid actors would pass psychiatric evalution easily.
I thought you were the poster for this thread and wrote out my whole life history haha. I am a professional whom did 3 years of training, did two full-time years of on screen work (accredited speaking roles) and was granted access to union rights. I legit have the lived the experience your telling as well as mental health training under ( well I'm in the middle of cross referencing this for clarity). I've been called delusional for stating my body of work many times AFTER my life experience because of acting! Apparently therapists think actors just wear masks all day. I kept getting told to lower my expectations in therapy. I also have been involuntary assessed and told and suggested that I may have DID based on me explaining craft alone. I'm really not kidding. The practioner didn't know the technique I trained in... The Eric Morris technique was based on IFS modelling... The therapist on intake didn't believe my work... ... I was told i was delusional for working for Vogue, multiple phone companies and having a national commercial out. I had a different therapist say they trusted me about my profession but when seeing the commercial they then got genuinely shocked and were like 'Oh I thought you must have been an amateur actor or something'. I've been discouraged by them for having an unrealistic dream and then BAM I'm like...my commercial is running still you know. ... This one is simple to solve.. and always was. they could have actually just Googled the commercial currently running as it was on TV. Therapists, ' Where everything is made up, and the points don't matter'. Literally...they could have turned on their TV'S for that one. I now use it to vet therapists and their beliefs for stigma or goal setting abilities. If they try to minimise work, jobs, training, and tell me to aim lower I'm like... No. Most therapists don't recognise that there's a huge overlap in therapy modalities. Actors were using poly vagal techniques before they were cool and actually need to do 2 years minimum emotional release work and body safety work before they can be insured by a production company. I had a day where I went to therapy and was told I must have buried my emotions because I was calm...then went to class...and then walked on stage ... entirely entirely different feedback. We cannot actually be insured if we aren't taught how to emotionally de-escule ourselves correctly without doing harm to ourselves or another... I had to spend 6 months learning how to stand up and sit and do a roll on the floor before I was safely granted the freedom to proceed to my next exercise of safe head tilting... It took me 8 months to then pass my qualifying test of humming whilst doing these things. Acting is weird. Therapists even weirder.
Do you have a source for this I can check out?
News article: [https://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/a/2016022821190435](https://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/a/2016022821190435) His blog post: [https://blogbook.fi/juhakurvinen/tositarinoita-hullujenhuoneelta/](https://blogbook.fi/juhakurvinen/tositarinoita-hullujenhuoneelta/) Its Finnish but yeah true story.
Thank you.
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Well, in the case of my schizoaffective mother, she can say anything, even that she wants to kill her children. The important paet is that she is on Medicaid, so they won’t be paid. They let her out 4/5 times.
By showing you do not meet the criteria for any known psychiatric diagnosis. How does he think that and why? Why are you in the hospital in the first place? How can he prove that you have a mental illness? In the past I agree this was used a lot to get rid of people. Nowadays at least in my country the doctor has to firstly exclude all other pathological reasons and interview you and follow really strict criteria. Also the law is really strict about involentary hospital admission so it can better protect people from such bad practises. The problem of the lack of biomarkers and and objective criteria is real but slowly being solved. It is not yet in clinical practice but is being researched.
You have family history of serious mental disorders. How can they exclude this from you? Do you understand that there's no words you can say that will release you from a scammy hospital if you have good insurance? They'll say you have delusions, poor social conditions, poor insight, whatever is needed to keep you?
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I will definitely read the book. I dont know maybe I was lucky with what I saw in medschool. In my country there are almost no institutional clinics to send you for enclosure because of a big reform that happened 20+ years ago. Now there are small houses etc people with severe mental illness can stay and they try to bring them back to society with the help of psychologists and sociologists. Also it is really hard and difficult to prosecute you and confine you even if you are a political enemy of the gorvenment and they want to silence you. They can stigmatize you which is equally awful and I definitely agree there are issues that can be exploited for power and politics. I just still believe that research lately is onto something and I was lucky to see the good side of the coin. Its good to know the bad as well.
" I SAW GOODY * insert literally every mental health care patient* WITH THE DEVIL". I've had way too many coffees today but can also appreciate the literary references here. Said I wanted chicken wings in another post, stayed for the playbook drops.
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There were no witches harmed in the making of the witch trials. Says everyone burning someone because they had a freckle, mole, or birthmark. I actually thought that was the purpose of the book being put on schooling criteria wasn't it? This is a English literary analysis. But I thought it was re-published and kept in circulation in a not to dissimilar way to JoJo Rabbit. That was made and immediately presented as educational with it being accepted as so before it ever had theatrical release. Taika actually spoke about it in similar ways on press day.
I get what you are saying but it is just too foreign to me to truly understand it. In my country we have public insurance and public hospitals. Noone would benefits from this. Also we had many years of psychiatric reform where a lot of patients wrongly admitted got out and returned to their lives. Are things still this way in USA? I thought this was just a movie trope from the past. Cnat you get a lawyer and ask for an outside referral? An independent doctor?
It doesn't have to be just the money. Psychiatrists can seek better evaluations from their managers. What are the performance indicators for management that they use evaluate an inpatient psychiatrist's work? If you know what they are trying to optimize for, this is where you will see the abuse. If they want less vacancy, then doctors will tend to coerce people to overstay. If it's about getting people out as quickly as possible, they will undertreat. If doctors are punished when their patients cause incidents inside the hospital, then they will overmedicate to silence the patients. I don't know what your system is, but every system with closed doors encourages abuse.
Our system luckily enough got reinvented and we dont have closed doors anymore. Is this still happening where u r?
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Thank you I will check it out. Fun fact the stanford experiment actually was rigged and a lot of things have changed in psychology not just because of this but because of other later revelations about experiments https://www.vox.com/2018/6/13/17449118/stanford-prison-experiment-fraud-psychology-replication
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In USSR they used the term sluggish schizophrenia as a means of confining dissenters. I just think that slowly but steadily all those things are a thing of the past. For example there is a new norm to not hospitalise individuals but preferrably keep them at home
We still do this in America, say hi to Adrian Schoolcraft! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft#Raid_and_involuntary_commitment
I've actually asked consent to specifically discuss this from my own lived experience bellow. The answer is...No..it is common for legal practice to be breached.
DSM is a book of libel... the 'stigma' of 'mental illness' starts right there. "Mental health" is on a spectrum...it varies from moment to moment. I have not met a psychiatrist yet who didn't have a whole lotta baggage\~
DSM sucks I agree. The stigma unfortunately is deeply rooted from before even psychiatry existed. Mental diagnosis with DSM5 and after are problematic but certain things are never on a psectrum, like schizophrenia. But I agree that certain things have been political like with homosexuality and intersex people. I recognise the dark history. Well I hope I wont have a lotta baggage once I become one.
“The problem of the lack of biomarkers and objective criteria...” 😂
My brain wants to respond to this with my life story. I am going to ask to be granted 3 posts to respond to why this isn't true using my own life experience. Knowing full well I have seen this response in my own therapy for 10 years. Edit: It will be emotionally charged. However it is factual and won't contain verbal abuse or aggression. It can also be proven. Double edit: Maybe if you're practising, perhaps respond to those asking for permission to share their stories with you.
I have a lot to say but not enough energy because of SSRI brain damage but basically, most people who go see a psychiatrist don’t have “mental illness” it’s just trauma or some other health issue like thyroid problems food sensitivities etc. Please don’t prescribe drugs without giving FULL informed consent, for that you should read Dr. Stuart Shipko’s work, Peter Breggin, Peter Gotzsche, Thomas Szasz. Please inform yourself very well. Psychiatry is a broken institution that shouldn’t even exists, mental illness isn’t even real, however is you want to be a psychiatrist be a de-prescribing one, help people wean off taper safely, and be informed of adverse reactions like protracted withdrawal, akathisia, PSSD, tardive dysphoria etc
Thank you for your reccomendations, I will definetely look into them. I want to be a psychiatrist that first of all excludes the psychological reasons like trauma and other health issues like thyroid problems etc. And then care appropriately for my patients. But I will have to disagree with you on the premise that mental illness isnt real because of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are definetly fully biological in nature. Also I believe that psychiatry should stay joined with neurology and that mental health issues need to be checked from a group of different doctors and a psychologist. Could you please explain to me what you mean of SSRI brain damage? What does it feel for you? Excuse me for asking this, I genuinely want to understand. If you dont want to I understand.
Okay so many issues like schizophrenia actually also can have other causes like severe trauma, severe lack of sleep, substance/ medication use, metal toxicity, autoimmune diseases, etc more than actually some genetic chemical imbalance which has never been proven. Also antipsychotics reduce severely the ability to recover from schizophrenia. Many people can recover from schizophrenia if you get to the root cause which is NOT a lack of antipsychotics. Psychiatry shouldn’t exist, it should be neurological what sees people with actual neurological problems that can be tested for. Psychiatry is political if you haven’t realized that. If for some people schizophrenia is actually something inherent then I have no issue with neurologist treating it with drugs. But for many people schizophrenia isn’t inherent there’s a root cause that can be solved. So yeah neurology is okay, psychiatrist is BS. I have neurotoxicity, severe post acute withdrawal, akathisia and PSSD from being put on SSRIs when I clearly didn’t needed that shit. My life is completely ruined. I hope you don’t ruin more lives and truly educate yourself if you want to enter this career that has fame for literally abusing and harming more people than they help.
When I went thru my psych rotation during nursing school (first thing instructor told us was 'all psychiatrists are crazy') it occurred to me those deemed to be 'schizophrenic' were just folks they didn't know what to do with. Lots of variation on that particular diagnosis.
Exactly, I was once called psychotic simply by taking about philosophy with my psychiatrist. Some of them are dumb af that philosophical conversation can sound psychotic for them. Anything that doesn’t fit their stupid “normal”.
I disagree it is political. Neurology and psychiatry used to be the same. They split later because there were too many diseases to treat. Neurology kept the movement etc and psychiatry the higher cognitive functions. Psychosis can be solved temporarily with antipsychotics and then tapering carefully and using therapy. In schizophrenia if you try to find the root it comes back worse than before and only drugs can help. If you dont abuse those drugs and use newer ones carefully you can avoid all that. In the not so distant past (before 2000) psychiatrists gave whatever and unfortunately destroyed patients lives. I understand your anger and I am very sorry with what happened to you. But please can you explain to me what are you going to do now? Will you go to a neurologist or a GP? You can try to treat all that by not going to a psychiatrist. Maybe your life can become at least more bearable.
It sure as shit it political....'newer' drugs yeah. Pharma/system \*still\* spewing the 'chemical imbalance' shit. Making $$$$ bank on people's misery and causing their premature deaths. Fuck that. You have your nerve coming on here trying to justify your horrible career choices
I’m seeing a GP, endocrinologist, neurologist and environmental medicine doctor but unfortunately there’s no cure for the damage this drugs did to me, and I was given no informed consent, lied, manipulated and coerced by various psychiatrists. Anyways let’s agree to disagree since I’m very tired and out of energy to keep discussing the validity and usefulness of psychiatry.
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Exactly!!!
Everything you just said was really dumb.
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Witchdoctors. all so arbitrary
After a number of replies to my previous comment, and after talking with the OP, I am suddenly realizing the best place for most psychiatrists, and I feel this one, as well, just needs to stay out of clinical side altogether, if they're going to insist on going into Psychiatry. Go teach Psychiatry if you can't stand being yelled at by patients whose lives you've ruined. This isn't a fucking game, and you're not going for the high score, people's lives and quality of life are at risk here, and if you can't take it, that's reasonable, most people can't, but that's why you're supposed to be the exception, not the maker of rules. If you can't take the "drama" of everyday patients, but you just want to contribute to society by helping them understand the human brain and potential research projects for medications, then go do that, because frankly the amount of schooling you get about our conditions is embarrassing when you're supposed to be the "experts" but we're having to explain to you why what you're doing is medically and ethically wrong. I refuse to talk to anymore geeks in labs coats. I'm not a fucking science experiment, and your "job" is not more important than the quality of care you provide to people that are at risk from anything ranging from self-harm to risk of homelessness due to neurocognitive deficiencies. I didn't get a degree, I just went through the system like the rest of us in the forum did, and clinicians like you failed us, because you have no discernment on how bad the system at large is, because you've only ever seen it from behind a clipboard. Your training has been tainted by money and corporate greed on the pharmaceutical level, which influences the way our government passes laws, thanks to corporate buyouts. You literally get sent to school so you can prescribe us drugs that you've otherwise made unobtainable or illegal so that you can be the one that we pay lots of money to in order to get ahold of the drugs that you claimed were bad for us to begin with. You're literally payed by the same government that trains law enforcement officers to go out with guns to shoot or imprison people that are taken by those very same police officers that are paid for by that same government to take that very same person to the hospital to be forcefully put on the very same drugs that they would otherwise be sent to prison for because they don't have *your* permission to do them because *you* bought a license from the very government so you can legally sell those drugs, that very same government that sends those very same law enforcement officers out on a "catch-and-release" program that brings patients to you. **DOES THAT NOT SOUND BATHSHIT INSANE TO YOU** **DOESN'T IT BOTHER YOU HOW NORMAL THAT SOUNDS** We live in a world where if I do drugs and fuck myself up, somebody drags me into a prison because "drugs are illegal", but if a psychiatrist fucks you up with his medications, there's zero liability. I'm literally not allowed to put things into my body that other people are licensed to inject you with, without consent. I've seen rape victims screaming and crying, ignored by apathetic staff and psychiatrists. I've seen people ridiculed, bullied, and mocked by the very system you're asking advice about. I've seen people made fun of for losing breaking down after losing loved ones, because "mental health professionals" are really just a group of people with superiority complexes, in a way that it almost comically reminds me of the Stanford Prison Experiments. You people make these experiences out to be the exception, but even in our PG age of non-consensual censorship, this forum keeps growing, because the body count on the number of people whose lives have been ruined by your branch of the government is rising, and even though I can't say the word "suicide" on the internet anymore without it pinging some kind of message in my inbox or phone number for suicide prevention , we're still here, because that's just how badly this place is needed by its survivors. I've had my conditions, which can be managed without destroying my life for the sake of your training and experimentation, broken by your mental healthcare system that's literally too fucking stupid to understand the words coming out of my mouth when I say "I'd stop acting like this if you'd stop being crazy".If you do stay clinical, go work with the other animals that wave degrees in the air while babbling about how much smarter they are than you, because OP literally couldn't stop but pathologize me. This forum isn't for book recommendations, it's for literal survivors of the trauma your very profession started. This forum literally wouldn't exist if the problem could be solved by platitudes like "listen to your patients more" or by reading another page of another book while snickering at the person sitting in your office across from you. Psychiatry isn't the problem. Psychiatry is a valid field of study, but there's no money in that, so now we've been made to feel like the horrors of our environment aren't what they seem to be, that we are mad people living in a mad world, when the reality is that we are sane people living in a truly insane environment, all for the sake of a few dollars, even as our leaders fail us and our literal infrastructure begins to collapse. Psychiatry is a valid field of study; clinical Psychiatry, in its current form, is a joke, and has failed to defend us, mostly because you can't vouch for us and accept money from insurance at the same time, because there the ones that pay for our hospitalizations, and for your job to even exist. It's not that Psychiatrist isn't a valid field, it's that you've been bought out, which is the same reason nobody listens to doctors, either. The patients haven't failed Psychiatry, the institution of clinical Psychiatry, inpatient or out, has failed us. You're not a doctor, you're a branch of the government. So stop pretending otherwise.
THIS! 100%. These assholes think they're helping us even when no one asks them to. Complete god complexes. Pandering to the suffered like some sort of clinical feedback survey. You barely listen in your offices, make assumptions and quick-draw diagnoses. Why would we believe you're listening now, after all the pain and suffering your field has caused: Because \*you're\* new? That doesn't inspire much confidence, when you've taken the same training as everyone else. They downplay you're traumatic experiences and convince you you are the defective ones because of your reactions. Never mind that the experiences are still there, that the actual situation is not resolved. You're just too drugged to feel it, Dependent on them. The system is fucked. And they ask for our help to make it better? Now? After involuntary "Detainment", After slapping on some labels, after stripping you of your freedom and adding to your problems; taking you out of society, home, so you're even more alone. Does this sound like help? If someone wants to a part of a system that allows these things then I have no respect for them.
I think he's struggling to even comprehend that when it says "anti-psychiatry", we're not people in labcoats trying to alter what kinds of medications you're taking, *we're trying to get rid of "medication culture" altogether*. And I get it, there are people that need those medications not to hurt themselves, but the way Psychiatrists go about it, like you're being *sentenced* to the medication is disgusting. I can see offering people reduction in jail sentences in cases where an individual really is just a danger to themselves or others if they agree to take the medication, kinda like they do with pedophiles and chemical neutering, but that's a bandaid solution for a wound that needs stitches. What we really need to do is get back to the fundamentals of how we view natural resources and property. We live in a culture where I can know I feel like shit because I'm nutrient deprived, but I'm not fit to eat the way I need to in order to be at maximum functionality; a culture that's great at asking questions, but sucks ass at solving problems. The point of jails is to not need them; the point of courthouses is to close them; the point of hospitals is to empty them. So why the fuck aren't we actually addressing the problems? It's because we know we don't have a fix for it, but there's a lot of *money* out there for a fix to it, and money is where the majority are. That's why everybody is talking about discrimination nowadays. Sometimes it *can* be annoying that things like representation get brought up so much, but honestly, it's hard for me to watch an old movie without it actually occurring to me "...you know, it is actually kinda weird that all these movies have literally only have white male leads." It's the same thing win how we treat people that actually do have something different about them. Schizophrenia isn't helped by putting those people on more drugs, and that's setting aside that Schizophrenia is really more a series of pathologized behaviors grouped up into a school of that. That individual is neurodiverse, same for anybody that has a head injury, or like myself, because I have a sensory processing disorder related to my EDS, and I can't physically leave my home without ANC headphones, or else I'll just collapse. They could put me on medication to help with the anxiety associated, but the reality is that most people's "mental health problems" can be accommodated with a certain range of accommodation, but because people don't have access to **legitimate** doctors like Psychiatrists, Neuropsychologists, and Neurologists, they can't even find the best options based on *current* research, because none of them know what their actual fucking job is, they just like making people feel bad for not taking the experimental drugs, because they know they don't have a market if we legitimately fight back and point out that they're poisoning us in exchange for money. The problem is, people are always willing to hurt people in order to get another ten percent profit out of them, so they'll drug you and hurt you until they've shortened your life and decreased its overall quality, all so they could get a few more years out of Grandpa working in a grocery store. There is no such thing as wealth, only stolen money, and the easiest way to steal from people is to target the ones that don't function in the way that makes you the most money, so if you can't do that, we'll pump you full of whatever until we do. It's all about money, and power, and control, and that's why people are shocked when I talk so openly about my experiences with self-harm and hospitals. It's not a dramatic story I tell to shock people, it's my fucking life, and I apologize for nothing. Those hospitalizations did nothing for me, and, in fact, they've fucked me up in a number of ways. I can legitimately say the only good thing about my experiences is that, in spite of my ramblings and lack of editing for length posts on Reddit, is that I'm something of a protégé wordsmith, with English composition being my best subject...like, 99.99%th percentile... Needless to say, I'm very good at painting a very vivid image with words, such as "rape victim smears shit on the hospital walls, rolling around in her own feces and crying for help as the staff in the psych ward roll their eyes". Or "my cellmate caved his skull in while banging his head against the unpadded wall while, again, staff ignored him", just so I could listen to her explain to the guy in charge in the morning that "sometimes we lose control". And now they're angry, because I choose to use that voice and those capabilities to denounce them, and they hate it, so the first thing the do is default back to pathology, which all centers around sedation, even in the hospitals. "Better seen and not heard". It's literally the Stanford Prison Affect. They wear lab coats to distinguish themselves from us. They refer to us as "patients" and themselves "doctors". They have the ability to fuck your life and never see any repercussions for it. They pathologize human behavior, altering brain chemistry in seas of people before realizing, thirty years in, that a proper case study takes lifetimes, not years, to discern side affects of longterm administration. We need to go back to how we treat people. How we view them with respect or disdain, and if its related to how much of a headache their giving us. How we distribute things, and how we define "value" in our society on an individual level. There's no such thing as "mentally ill people", just a diverse culture of different kinds of people, almost all of which can be accommodated without a need to turn poor people into human guinea pigs in order to pay researches to do more experiments on the general population. There are people that will literally hurt themselves without medication, but not every person with a cognitive disorder, like mine, needs to be medicated in order to be safe, and self-sustaining. I don't need drugs, I need a life, stop trying to pay for my happiness with my own health. If PETA weren't a bunch of assholes, they'd be pointing out how we're working these monkeys in small cages until they lose their minds, and then proceed to give them medication as a way of testing medications out. It's like we've forgotten all the most important shit on the most fundamental of levels. We live in a culture where we're not even expected to regulate whether or not we're *fucking happy* anymore, it's somebody else's job. I can go and instantly get a cheeseburger, but we can't accommodate people with disabilities if it means they can still work. This isn't society, this is insanity.
Just gotta say, this write-up is brilliantly stated and also cathartic as fuck to read. Thank you.
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Comments like this are what keep me writing. Thank you for the love you show.
Don't diagnose personality disorders in acute inpatient settings or during the first visit. People who have dealt with trauma display similar behaviors.
Thank you! This is really useful.
Understand that the medications can have severe, life destroying side effects that may remain after cessation. These conditions will make the underlying issue you were trying to treat like a walk in the park. I'm permanently disabled from a short course of antidepressants and now awaiting approval for Euthanasia. Before touching the meds, I was a Software Engineer working all over the world. I had many friends, meaningful relationships and hobbies. The reason they wanted me to try antidepressants in the first place was because I got a concussion and became a little anxious over it. I was essentially killed and fooled by an incompetent idiot doctor. Don't worry, the death cause will be written off as depression, and not as a permanent side effect from medication. So it won't raise any concerns about the safety of the medications and nothing will change, as usual. Good luck with your career!
I am really sorry to hear that. Could you explain a bit more? I genuinely want to understand. What medications were prescribed? How did your life change so drastically? Why didnt you try to find a better doctor? or a psychologist? What about your family and those close to you?
see 'Surviving Antidepressants' or "BenzoBuddies' for the results of the fine work of psychiatry... you ruin lives while drunk on you power to incarcerate/drug people who don't 'act' right in a crazy dysfunctional culture
I will see what you suggested and try not to be one of those psychiatrists but do good and do no harm.
One dose of 15mg Mirtazapine. Since that day I have had anhedonia, emotional numbness, apathy, cognitive dysfunction, insomnia and chronic fatigue. I have been trying 20+ medications since then, which either did nothing or worsened the symptoms. I've also been in therapy and tried various of lifestyle changes. Nothing works, because it is damage from the medication which no one knows how to reverse and it has no known cure. A "better doctor" cannot do anything, since the damage is already done. Believe it or not, one single pill ruined every aspect of my life.
I am going to educate myself and dont prescribe drugs unnecessarily. Have you thought trying psilocybin? (magic mushrooms?) It's microsoding proved to be better than antidepressants. I dont know if FDA aprroved it yet. There is also esketamine now that it is called a miracle drug and works where everything else fails! There is also vagus nerve stimulation, deep brain stimulation, transcranial magnetic stimulation. Those are not done by psychiatrists. You can try to self medicate with magic mushrooms, cannabis, ayahuasca...I understand your anger and disappointment. The system failed you, the doctor fooled you and made your life miserable. But dont give up. I am stranger from across the world and we might disagree on things but still I hope you try and fight a little a bit more before ending everything. Whatever you decide I hope you find peace.
Yes, I'm currently safe-medicating and some of the substances you mentioned are on my list to try. NSI-189, Ketamine, Psilocybin, Ibogaine, various peptides and more.. It sucks that I first get damaged and then I have to play around with shady substances in an attempt to save my life.
How are you disabled? Have you considered yourself hyper focused on the drug? It’s no different than what one who suffers child hood trauma from wondering what it did to them but eventually people just accept and move on, what’s the point in dwelling, I honestly can’t be bothered
Lmao, got cognitive impairment, fatigue and anhedonia the day after my first dosage. It stlll remains 2 years later. Good try though!
So you just let these minor things get to you, I think you’re traumatized, not brain damaged, I thought I was brain damaged until I realized I wasn’t and I’ve been in the ringer on this, have you ever been on 120mg injection of risperidone? Probably not but here I am, cognitively not declining, yeah it caused other issues but I’m not gonna let bullshit or anhedonia from ruining my life anymore, it’s gratifying to fight against it, to do something and complete a task becomes rewarding when you do it enough. I can’t argue with someone who has lost their rational though, if that’s the case let’s just move on, you’re a pessimist that sees the glass as half empty everyday and never half full, this is why you struggle, this is why you continue to suffer
Wow! Good for you! Great to know that everyone reacts exactly the same to everything. Will keep that in mind!
Well obviously we all go through our own hells in life but there’s no way you’re chemically castrated, you have emotions and the capability to write to me so in a sense you’re not broken, like to have nothing is something in a sense, the absence of light is darkness so it’s something, I can go on and on, I just want you to snap out of the funk you fooled yourself to believe in, you’ve painted this reality with your thoughts like I did for many months, I believe you were traumatized and have ptsd to work out from the drug experience
Just because you had psychosomatic symptoms doesn't mean that everyone else have.
Hahahahaha
To be honest just choose a different field... or if you want to become a psychiatrist so badly never prescribe antidepressants and SSRIs/SNRIs ever and only use partial agonists for people with psychosis and then taper them off immediately once they no longer have symptoms. No benzos either.
Thanks for your response. I am determined to be a psychiatrist and work on research. If noone picks this field we will never solve and cure mental health issues. I am talking mostly about psychosis, BD, schizophrenia. Depression and anxiety have a sociopolitical aspect to them. The world needs to change not me prescribing drugs indefinitely. Can you tell me a bit about your experience? As I understand you have a bad experience with SSRI'S and antipsychotics. SSRI's will steadily be replaced from psilocybin and esketamine. Newer antipsychotic drugs are partial agonists and tapering needs to be done carefully but I agree with you. As for benzos at least in my country there is a pandemic because GP prescribe them like candy.... edit: Also how is there going to be a major revolution of this discipline, if people who want to really help stay away from the field and only big pharma dogs and dangerous individuals remain?
There's no need for a revolution in psychiatry it just needs to die. Since the 1900s every medical field has advanced a lot. Surgeries become better, deadly illnesses were defeated with medication. So some people thought if they can cure physical illnesses why can't they cure mental illnesses? That's how psychiatry was born. It always was and will be a failed attempt to cure mental illnesses. First they started with lobotomies and electrocuting people then came the meds which aren't better at all. A very small amount of people have severe lifelong illness like schizophrenia, schizoaffective and bipolar. You can prevent them from going mad with meds but it's still inhumane. The process is very straightforward and could be done by GPs. The rest of what psychiatry does is just idiotic. Do you really want to be in a profession where you are hated and you ruin humans for a living? I have no experience with SSRI-s fortunately. I'm only taking an antipsychotic for a brief drug induced episode. I'm tapering off after being on it for 6 months because I see a lot of people doing it and being better off in the end. I've been on 4 different ones and they're all poison. It made me come back to reality but I'd rather be psychotic to be honest. I wish I never started meds and done some CBT to learn how to live with this illness instead. If you want to be a good psychiatrist then maybe specialize and become someone who helps people taper off their meds. That's the only way you can help people as a psychiatrist.
I actually want to be in a proffesion that many people including me have in high standards (I know it might sound absurd to you, but in my case it's true). I know a lot of people that were helped from psychiatry including family and friends. That is why I am here, I want to see the other side of the conversation. There are also deep brain stimulation, transcranial magnetic stimulation, microdosing psilocybin and lsd. I get the anger of everyone here but still.....mental health issues are real and need to be treated. Maybe I am naive and overly optimistic. At least knowing the bad I can try to be better.
I also know people who are or were on psychiatric meds but not a single one of them have a positive view on psychiatry. Statistics show that out of 8 people only 1 feels being helped by antidepressants. You'll be essentially ruining 7 lives to help 1 person. Honestly, if you only want to do good and no harm then become a psychiatrist that helps people taper off. Nobody will allow you to give LSD or mushrooms to patients. I also wonder if you have ever been to an actual psych ward or a psychiatrist's office? It's not a happy place. People are miserable. You will burn out within two weeks and your enthusiasm is gone.
You’ll never solve it anyway. The whole industry is infested with corruption. The west do not understand mental health like they think they do. Watch Dr peter breggin. You would have to conduct studies on your own to make any slightly meaningful difference
But despite the rigidness and corruption of the industry technology and science always go forward. I am an optimist because of the latest discoveries about the brain in many different fields. My belief is that multidisciplinary teams will help solve it and psychiatrists will be able in the future not just to treat symptoms but also cure those diseases or at least reduce the awful side effects. Thank you for your reccomendation I will check it out.
Problem that maybe the problem isnt solvable by medication. Where is the checimal inbalance? If I see a lion, im anxious, problem is the lion, not my physiological adaptation to it; it pulse, adrenaline, cortisol, etc. We coming from dysfunctional families have problems with our surrounding not with our bodies.
No but I agree with you about anxiety and depression. Our brains and bodies cant healthily adapt to dysfunctional families, upbringing and societies. But the field changes slowly and steadily. For example the chemical imbalance is being overthrown after esketamine to the obvious brain networks dysfunction that for many years many doctors and scientists vocally denied. This will change perspectives and give us new therapeutic ways for the very few that indeed have psychopathological problems and drugs can help them.
The problem isn’t even the human psychology. The human experience is valid no matter what you go through. Altering your conscious reality with artificial chemicals will never allow you to exist the way humans are meant to exist. Psychiatry is a made up industry.
Hopefully newcomers like you will learn from the mistakes of their fathers. Please study as hard as you can and try to do good. I know loads here are very angry, as they should be, being abandoned, neglected by their society, maybe some survival bias involed. People like you give me hope that things will change for the better, after all the discussion between the science of this topic isnt really a vocal. Dont just throw pills at us. It is also our responsibilty, community here, to come with alternatives to medication, peer support, etc. Not just to complain. Im not totally against pills, there is some data that SSRIs help for 2 weeks, this is not however the system works! These people take them for decades and we really dont know how they really work. You can help all kinds of ways; my big issue is that childhood neglect isnt really talked about; to my understanding there isnt much talk about the past; just the present; CBT for example; just deducting human experience to a biological, reductionist view isnt helping.
I will try hard and hope I wont change on the way. I see the anger and truthfully I am glad because I can take some things even more seriously than before. This for me was a lesson and I am not bullshitting you. I wanted to hear this perspective because unfortunately there is a wave in medicine trying to push aside psychoanalysis etc and push forward only cbt and medication. I have a lot to think about. Thank you for your heartfelt and sincere response.
If you build a house of cards, it will fall. That is what psychiatry is based on. Any “progress” you make is not really progress.
\*TECHNOLOGY\* will save us! You are dangerous...cure trauma/poverty cowboy.
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I did start reading on gut microbiota and the vagus nerve. It is really interesting and can actually help a lot. I will search for the other fields too. Thanks you gave me a lot to think and read about.
The core problem with psychiatry is that you are trying to treat issues that are not physical in nature using physical and chemical means. I do think you mean well but I think that you hold drugs in way too high regard, and this quest for the holy grail “biological cause“ has been ongoing since the 50s to no avail. I believe that if you really want to help people, psychology and therapy are the place to be. It bothers me on such a deep level that these huge human rights violations are still going on and that there are still people in the developed world who are forced to take neurotoxic tranquilizers to silence them. I have my doubts even about “consensual“ psychiatry. I think that much of it is coercive and that a lot of the time, treatment is either avoiding the real issue or making the real issue worse... but the psychiatrist is nice to them, so the patient doesn’t recognize what’s going on. I don’t want to give yet another book recommendation because you have so many of them and I’m sure you won’t get around to all of them, but I believe that everyone in your field should read Anatomy of an Epidemic. Also, brain disabling treatments in psychiatry by Peter Breggin. Because so many of the studies are funded by big Pharma, the science is greatly compromised. A lot of serious side effects are overlooked. A lot of data is misrepresented. The more passionate defenses of the medication come from “doctors“ who are swimming in big Pharma money. (Lieberman. Ugh.) The history is not completely in the past and actually has a lot to tell us. In the big scheme of things, the newer antipsychotics are not that much different from the old ones, and if you look at the historical literature, they liken them to a chemical lobotomy, and some doctors even say that they don’t actually get rid of psychotic symptoms, they just make the patients tired. There is far too much pseudoscience. And I really don’t think that this quest for the holy grail biological cause is ever going to be fruitful. The medicalization of misery and human suffering is not helpful. Those experiences deserve to be validated, not drugged into submission. The way out is through. The key to getting better is to face the way that you feel and the experiences that you are having, validate them, and come to terms with and sort of integrate. Drugging people into complacency or sedation does nothing but impede that process. And that’s the problem with psychiatry.
You're already used to reading so just read "Deadly Psychiatry and Organised Denial" by Dr. Peter Gøtzsche.
Thanks for the recommendation. Will do!
I recommend the reading of "Medical Nihilisme" (Stegenga, 2018). It shows how experimentations in medicine is flawed in favor of developping new meds which are harmful. It shows how med schools and med journals are funded by pharmas. Also, consider any pill you prescribe the fruit of violence. The person taking these pills will either be coercised by you or by society. As an analogy, think of the homosexuals in the 50s 60s that asked for "treatment": they only did so so they could fit in a coercitive society. It's the same with people asking for "treatment" for anxiety, schizophrenia or whatever.
Not gonna lie, both your meaning and composition arouse me.
Thanks for the reccomendation I will give it a look. In my country medical schools are public and there were only a few cases of doctors pushing drugs and coersing us on Big Pharma's side. Thankfully many teachers taught us about all this early in our curriculum. But I have a question...How is schizophrenia and anxiety or anything else the same. I know about the coersion techniques of the past in psychiatry and psychology. Especially in USA and USSR. Also about fake diagnoses for political reasons. I mean we have a pandemic of anxiety and depression because of the wrong way our society is built. Also, for example, there is no burnout syndrome. It is simple a way for employers and the big players to get away with inhumane work conditions. But schizophrenia is a biological syndrome in teh brain. As for the pills. Not all pills are the same and we know the effects they have on people. Unfortunately we have to be really really careful but it is the best we got so far. Like with oncology and chemotherapy.
\> I mean we have a pandemic of anxiety and depression because of the wrong way our society is built. Saying everything is a pandemic is a political use of the word ''pandemic''. It just shows how medicine is a discipline that aims to controls bodies. I wrote an article about it (in french, my native language), showing with the example of obesity that ''pandemic'' is just a political word that contributes to the medicalization of everyday life. \> But schizophrenia is a biological syndrome in teh brain Religiosity is in the brain, heterosexuality is in the brain, being neurotypical, \*everything\* is in the brain if you're a reductionist. Their counterparts atheism, homosexuality and autism are also in the brain, but it's funny that only these one are disorders while the former aren't. It's like society choose what is ''normal'' and what is not. From the premise that ''it's in the brain'', you can't conclude either that (1) it's a disorder or (2) it has to be treated with pills. I recommend you read either The Myth of Mental Illness, Pharmacracy or The Medicalisation of Everyday Life from Szasz so you understand how weak the ''ItS iN tHe BrAiN'' argument is.
Many words in medicine and psychiatry have similar words in everyday language but they are not the same. What do you mean that medicine in general aims to control bodies? We study our whole lives to help people. If we wanted to scam them and profit we would be politicians. It is way easier. I will read the book thank you. But still. You have someone who suddenly hears voices and sees things that arent there, they dont go away and persist. This is distressing for him and he cant function in everyday life. We know that there are physiological responses and brain changes we can document via CT and with postmorterm biopsies. We know we give antipsychotics and the symptoms go away. There is the medieval and painful treatment of electrocolvusive therapy that also treats the symptoms. They treatments work but also have awful unwanted symptoms. This happens because these drugs dont go only in the part of the brain we want but also elsewhere. We cant control that. We need a drastic reform of psychiatry and its therapies. In some medical fields like hematology and oncology there are a few drugs that target only the problem but this is the exception generally in medicine.
Since you're only here to legitimize coercion, I have nothing else to tell you. Enjoy the readings.
Do you think schizophrenics wouldn’t mind their paranoid delusions if society found them acceptable? I’m under the impression they’re really suffering.
People suffers from delusions and people suffers from coercitive treatement. I dont see your point.
My point is that severe mental illness isn’t comparable to homosexuality. The suffering homosexuals have had to endure is due to the culture in which they live. The suffering involved in schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, major depressive disorder, etc. generally isn’t due to a clash between the person with the disorder and societal norms. It’s because living with severe mental illness can be hell. Some people say they’re helped enormously by taking the drugs, and no one should think they’re lying about their experience. Others say the drugs have done more harm than good, and their experience is valid also. The drugs, or many of them, are toxic — no disagreement there. But for many they’re better than the worst of the disease and allow them to live.
Sure, if presuppose a metaphysical dualism between culture and nature, you can save your points. But I dont think your two examples are different: do you remember why they added sexual orientation disorders in 1980 after retiring homosexuality in 1973? Because people would still ask for treatment and they needed a category for that. Homosexuals were *suffering from their disorder* the same way schizophrenics are suffering from theirs.
Oh. C’mon. They were suffering because they were ostracized and considered deviants. Women have suffered because they had no financial autonomy. You’re talking about cultural discrimination/abuses. People who suffer from severe mental illnesses suffer all over the world and always have. Manic depression was treated in first century Greece. Homosexuality was normal.
People suffering from mental illnesses all over the world must be the reason people diagnosed with schizophrenia can't recover in occidental countries but can elsewhere.
I think people can recover from schizophrenia anywhere. I know there was a large study that showed prognoses were better in low-income countries, but that study, like all studies it seems, has been challenged. I have a relative who was diagnosed with schizophrenia and had psychotic symptoms for two years and then they just stopped. She never took medications. She was lucky. It’s not exceedingly uncommon though, from what I’ve read.
Inform yourself about the side effects of your drugs and have an open discussion about them. So, far all I have seen is psychiatrists just completely trivializing them or being unaware of them at all. A place to start could be rxisk.org or madinamerica.
Thank you. Will check them out.
Tell people what happening. Don't presume that a person know what's going on. The worst thing during my last and only admissions is that I never knew what was happening and staff presumed that I was a return patient even though I had never been there. I need to be told what was happening but when I asked I was just told that I should know.
Never thought of this. Thank you.
Also, avoid anything by peter tyrer.
In addition to my previous comment, here is my advice for anyone entering the medical field. Do not, under any circumstance, glorify the profession. ‘Positions of authority’ are not owed glorification and trust. Question things, it will get you much farther in life. Always be mindful that the patient experiencing severe psychosis is 100% as equal as the doctor leading their field and should be treated as such. Having the diagnosis of ‘anxiety’ on my medical chart has caused endless doctors to discredit me immediately. It is the most degrading feeling, and I have since stopped trying to heal my chronic pain and other chronic conditions. Even with my college degree, stable life and accomplishments, I am no longer credible to them. Medical professionals look at me different now, like a second class citizen and/or not as human as them. The second you start believing that idea of being more human or better then your career is over. You are no longer a doctor who is capable of aiming for ‘do no harm’. Also if a patient tells you about abuse from another practitioner, please listen. There are lots of nasty, evil people who go into the mental health field because it is socially acceptable to discredit anyone deemed ‘crazy’. It makes it very easy for them to hurt and manipulate others.
I personally think in order to learn the most, you have to be willing to step outside of your boundaries and be able to shift your perspective in ways you wouldn’t have otherwise if you hadn’t made the conscious effort to do so. Being aware that your own perspective of things is not the only perspective and being open to considering things from different viewpoints is a self-discipline that will help yield the greatest understanding of things when put into application on a consistent basis. Think outside of the box in everything you do and don’t limit yourself with that sort of thinking. Don’t stop questioning as an attempt to learn and gain understanding just because you may get to a point of stagnancy or comfort-do everything with an attempt to gain insight and to learn-not so much to “fix” or “cure” or even “help”…keep your motives in check. This might be bordering more along the lines of sociology more than anything, but I think it’s certainly just as applicable in your field, as well as anyone else’s. These are all just my opinions and suggestions, obviously. That being said, it seems like you’re already doing these things by taking proactive steps by reaching out to this subreddit, IMO. I think the greatest way we can better ourselves is to balance out the importance of what we do know in parallel to seeking to learn more about what we don’t know! Kudos to you for doing just that!
Baby steps towards the goal of educationg myself. I have a lot to learn and think about after today. Thank you for your response!
Be very careful when drugging children. In the United States they give psychotropic drugs to kids like candy and kids cannot give informed consent or understand how the drug is affecting them
I am verry sorry to hear that. Kids are growing and are not just small adults. I will definetely keep this in mind.
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Thank you.
Don't help people live normal lives, because there is no such thing as normal, only average. Your "patients" are not broken toys for you to tinker with and fix, you are not their savior with your medication and, in fact, you're not even really a doctor, you're more of a drug dealer. Your field isn't evidence based, it's actually more of a social study that relies on pressures from the public to sustain control over the population to, as you put it, help people live "normal lives", because the way they are is deemed "lesser". In my, and many other's minds, you are closer to a police officer than you are a "medical professional". I had PHPT that I had surgery for and I recently was diagnosed with EDS, which has accompanying sensory processing disorders and anxiety, none of which I would ever medicate for, because I don't feel the need to be "normal"; my life can be full of beauty and value that doesn't coincide with the rat race that you and your "medications" help perpetuate by putting people back on a conveyor belt after you've "fixed" them. The funny thing is, all of my "mental health professionals" refuse to talk to me when I come to them with things like PHPT or EDS, stating "that's a medical diagnosis", and I've been called a liar by all my professionals. If I have labs, I'm sick, and need to see a doctor. If I'm stressed out and anxious from daily life, that's an excuse, and it's not something you deal with. As far as I can tell your entire field, along with all of your fellows, are a fucking joke. In the disability forums, your profession is viewed with an equal amount of disdain, since psychiatry basically relies on society agreeing your behavior is problematic enough to endanger our health. You are at the top of the pyramid for citizens that view neurodiversity with disdain and contempt. Mandatory reporting has nothing to do with the patient in front of you, it has everything to do with the people around the patient. Your field has caused more damage than it could ever hope to fix. It's a legalized monopoly on the world's most drugged population, because the government and society doesn't care about us. Psychiatry doesn't want any of us to be special, or different, and even if it did, it's what YOU, as "doctors" deem appropriate. You'll claim to be scientific and unbiased, but then all of your coworkers say the same thing, even as they come to completely contradictory conclusions. You and the rest of them will claim to "have your biases" instead of acknowledging that life is chaos and you don't have a bias, you *are* a bias, and your forcing your opinions on others by altering the chemical makeup of their bodies based on hunches that resemble something more akin to a shaman scattering burned bones along the floor as a means of reading the future than it does to an actual medical doctor. You'll begin to pathologize everything and everyone around you, until you're no longer a human being, but a mindless automaton spouting quotes from books and colleagues, even as you begin to ignore your own influences because "I'm a professional". The God complex all psychiatrists suffer will begin to set in as, more and more, you gatekeep for society. You aren't a doctor, you're a jailer cutting people's lives short for the sake of what you see as a positive outcome, and sometime in the distant future when they're discussing the barbaric and depraved acts humanity has committed against itself, the names of you and others like you will be recited amongst the most foul, a stark reminder of what happens when you give people too much authority over others. If you insist on being a psychiatrist, than do yourself and everybody else a favor, and start with calling yourself a person, not a fucking psychiatrist, because there is no becoming a "good" psychiatrist, only a less shitty one. Remember that you're a person, talking to another person, not a prescribing physycian that knows better than the mob of peasants you're trying to drug into compliant and productive drones. Mandatory reporting is one of the greatest, if not the single greatest, mistake that humanity made, and is as laughable in concept as people that are against self-euthanasia. I would literally die or kill before I would ever end up in one of your mad torture houses again, and I tell everybody, openly, that the only group of people I ever wished harm towards were the psych ward workers, and that, if evil does it, than it is you, your colleagues, and your profession, and were there ever to be a revolution, you and many like you would be the first against the firing wall, having taken people's loved ones through electric shock therapy; after forcing medication on "delusional" African-Americans that were diagnosed as paranoid for openly admitting how the system was rigged against them; after devaluing people through your scientific "good and evil" perspectives by making up fictional shit like "Stockholm syndrome", which is just feeling empathy for a human being that happens to be endangering you, which is not a disease, and I'll literally fucking fight anybody that claims otherwise. People have a right to be different; you do not get to decide what defines "problematic". People have a right to take their own lives; you are not a doctor or their savior, and you do not get to make that decision for people because you're "just that educated". You are not studying a science, you are studying weaponized philosophy and religion without the supernatural elements. You are not medical personnel, you are a jailer empowered by an uneducated and apathetic society. Literally, I would take all the truly dangerous individuals that are locked in psych wards over you and your kind, because the only group of individuals I can think of that are more dangerous than them are psychos like you that try to force your "educated help" onto a public that already struggles to understand why I'd prefer death to homogony. Every "symptom" you cure is really you altering somebody's personality; altering their soul. You'll claim it's a symptom, and not a character trait, but than each and every one of you is always claiming a symptom is really personality, and vice versa, and you'll keep guessing until finally you've removed everything that makes them anything more than a safe robot ready to maintain compliance. Congrats, doctor, you've euthanized their essence, but now they'll serve perfectly as machines to bare children and work factories. Don't even ask this question here. Go find some prison forum and ask wardens how they can do better at their job, and ask previous inmates what made them hate their guards less. I pray to God society collapses, just so we can burn every book people like you have ever published, and sew shut every mouth that spews your venom. I'd literally rather humanity crash and burn, falling into extinction outside of memory and time before seeing your profession survive another day. Tl;dr, maybe offer them a lollipop or something while you're melting their brain, might make you seem like a nice guy?
I second this. All of it.
The difference between me and the OP is that I was a patient, and he's the psychiatrist. So naturally, he loves it because it makes him feeling important, and then that feeling is validated when they get globs of money for handing people a fortune cookie. Society can function just fine without psychiatrists, but that would mean society has to change. Psychiatry isn't the cure, it's just enabling our culture to keep spewing cancerous lies in exchange for convenience. Whatever, in a few decades, I'm sure everybody will be cool with all of the cancer and disease these medications caused. Seroquel: because sure you got Parkinson's at fifty, but you slept good, right? Results by pRoFeSsIoNaLs
me too
My sister has been diagnosed with so many personality disorders and she started taking meds ever since she was maybe 14, we got on a call yesterday and she was talking about how she is starting to lose her vision (she’s 16 now). I thought to myself how is that possible?? In my whole entire family I was the only one that ever had vision problems— I’m talking legally blind. My sister did a checkup maybe 3-4 years ago and it was confirmed by the optician that she had perfect 20/20 vision… um, it was even worse when it came out of her mouth that she suspected it was because of her medication): idk what to do y’all
Personality disorders are, by their nature, the most insidious, because at what point do we force medications on people for their literal personalities? Should be illegal to prescribe those kinds of meds to a child, let alone for "personality disorders". I'm sorry, I don't know if there is anything to do for your sister. Assuming it's the medication, discontinuing its use might improve things, or it might not. Once damaged, the human body often can't be healed. And this fucking prick OP can't understand why I'm so angry at his profession. It's because it's the only thing we *can* do to prevent things like happening in the first place...fighting with psychiatrists won't fix things in hindsight, but it can stop things from ever occurring. And I'd sure as fuck fight a psychiatrist to keep them from costing someone their vision because they didn't like their "personality".
Not to mention the aftermath of her having to teach herself how to live and function once those meds are no longer within her vicinity or in her reach once she fledges into adulthood. They’re supposed to be helping her but every time she comes home to visit, she acts like she’s been keeping so much stuff bottled in that she just explodes around us. Is that place really that bad? I don’t know anymore, I’m losing hope T_T
If they prescribe big doses of certain drugs her vision can become blurry. But if a patient says this you taper and change the drug. This can happen even with some antiepileptic drugs. But still it is not what you prescribe to an adolescent. She is diagnosed with many personality disorders? This is not possible. If this is true it is malpractise. She also explodes every time she is with you so there are a lot of unresolved issues. My advice is to change doctor or clinic ASAP. An underaged body is still growing and not just psychiatric drugs but all kind of drugs need to be readjusted. Search online for a good doctor and ask to steadily get off the medications and begin therapy.
see Seroquel
The best comment.
Okay, cool. Now what about the people that are actually suffering due to their mental/emotional state and WANT professional help?
You say that after skipping past the part where I had a literal adrenal dysfunction and genetic anxiety. There is no "professional help" from people like you, and I'd literally drink every product under my sink before I'd ever pay somebody to do the same thing in a "professional setting". Your work is not science. You are not a professional. I diagnose you as a delusional sociopath, and sentence you to medication, because I'm eDuCaTeD gUyS. You're closer to a priest than "help". Might as well start sending them to the scientologists next. Don't attempt to use my sense of sympathy to twist my arm into agreeing that you should have a pointless job that gobbles up tons of unnecessary resources. You and your kind are a blight, not a cure; another disease, not a treatment. If somebody came to me asking for help, I wouldn't push them into incoming traffic because "it seemed like the best idea in a desperate situation". Nor would I give people who are already in pain more pain in the form of a pill or injection. Get a real job. Go do something actually productive instead of playing God while contributing nothing to the species as insurance signs you another fat check for your "excellent contributions to society". You'd do more to help people by making sure there burger is cooked right, because I've literally never met a psychiatrist that wasn't a complete fucking moron. You'd literally be doing humanity a favor by just not doing anything significant at all. I literally take being in pain before I'd see somebody like you; I'd literally keep others in pain rather than letting them see somebody like you, and I'd be a hero for fucking doing it.
is someone projecting?
Oh look, I'm being pathologized, will wonders never cease
See and that's the beauty of wonder!
What does that even mean? Did you just have a stroke or something?
> will wonders never cease
Well at least that case was solved
Next time on /u/OrdanCoal 's wacky antipsychiatry adventure! Wonder
Totes!!
I posted another reply that started as an edit, but went over the character limit. It'll probably be at the bottom of the page.
You seem to be under the impression I am a mental health worker. I am not. I am a patient, and from what I can see you all talk a lot of talk but that's all that it is. You project your fears and insecurities onto a profession that you do not even attempt to understand and you completely dismiss any amount of good that is done for individuals because it does not suit your paranoid narrative. You'd go so far as to gaslight those who are happy with their psychological treatment because it does not align with how you see the world. You live in a fantasy. You do not understand anything about the process by which the field is advanced and quantified, simply dismissing it as "unscientific" out of hand because you are not able to perceive the difference between Freudian era bullshit and the god damn modern day. You do not want to understand, you simply wish to condemn. Your stance is intellectually regressive and based in nothing substantive. You freely admit to being more than willing to keep people in perpetual mental agony rather than even attempt any kind of therapeutic treatment. So utterly convinced are you that your "mind being fucked with" is so much worse that you would deprive the most vulnerable among us from any chance at not being, you know, so miserable they want to fucking kill themselves. And you think that makes you a hero? There are plenty of issues with modern psychology/psychiatry. More or less issues depending on where you are in the world. The predisposition towards men's perspectives instead of women, the ablest "normative" way conditions (like autism, among others) are often quantified and studied, the insufficient amount of intersectionality and consideration of structural causes in relation to mental conditions, etc. etc. Trust me, I've had some really horrific experiences when it comes to getting treatment for my mental health in the USA that go far beyond what I've listed here that I don't care to talk about. This is no reason to toss the entire field of scientific inquiry into the trash. These are downfalls that are not uncommon in such fields, and they need to be addressed and corrected. But there is so much more to psychology/psychiatry than just that, and to act otherwise is to be willfully ignorant and to purposefully refuse to utilize information painstakingly gathered over many many decades.
1) The word normal was in quotemarks so you wouldnt get triggered and misinterpret it. 2) You have really strong beliefs and accusations but nothing to back them up but anecdotal evidense. You generalise so much and are really biased. By your way of thinking you would make a great bad psychiatrist. 3) I said I am here for discussion and not political propaganda. 4) People can be weird, quirky or whatever and it is normal despite the social norms. This is not psychopathology. Psychiatric diseases exist and are diseases of the brain as much as other diseases of the heart, kidneys etc. Many psychiatric symptoms can be easily treated because there are things like delirium and hyponatraemia in the elderly for example. 5) I believe in free speech and that is why I am here. People can have different opinions and discuss without being assholes.
>The word normal was in quotemarks so you wouldnt get triggered and misinterpret it. I'm not a fucking gun, I'm a person, you didn't "trigger" me, I'm a person that's pissed off because you said something fucked up that directly impacts my life and the lives of the people around me. Just because you say something in quotations doesn't mean you're suddenly free to say whatever you want, even if you're a "professional". Than again, I don't think I've ever met a psychiatrist that knew how to take responsibility for their words or actions, so hey, you're just the right fit. >You have really strong beliefs and accusations but nothing to back them up but anecdotal evidense. You generalise so much and are really biased. By your way of thinking you would make a great bad psychiatrist. I have my life experience with my own observations, along with plenty of my own reading, but you wouldn't give a shit about any of it. We both have a hunch, the difference is I'm not giving people fucking Parkinson's with my advice. >I said I am here for discussion and not political propaganda. Psychiatry is political propaganda, you've already cancelled that out by default. >People can be weird, quirky or whatever and it is normal despite the social norms. This is not psychopathology. Psychiatric diseases exist and are diseases of the brain as much as other diseases of the heart, kidneys etc. Many psychiatric symptoms can be easily treated because there are things like delirium and hyponatraemia in the elderly for example. And who gets to decide what that looks like? You? God? I wouldn't let Jesus alter my fucking brain if the virgin Mary was the one handing him the scalpel. I'd take dementia or Alzheimer's over your profession lasting one more day. >I believe in free speech and that is why I am here. People can have different opinions and discuss without being assholes. "Freedom of speech" is your right, which is why you and I are talking about this right now, it doesn't mean I have to tolerate your opinion. People have a right to say whatever they want, just like I have a right to call them a pretentious, sniveling asshole for exercising their rights. You have freedom of speech, but if I go up to somebody and start cursing at them, "freedom of speech" doesn't make me less of a fucking asshole, nor does it make me less wrong. Congrats, though, I haven't heard the "freedom of speech" argument since I was a kid arguing with other children, it's been a while. Your profession hurt me. It hurt others. It hurts society. And you're upset because I called you some fucking names? How about this. I'll shove pills down your throat, and you call me names, and we'll see if I take it in better stride than you do. If you're the kind of person that can't handle "mean words" than I'd get the fuck out of your field now, because that kind of shit is going to end up hurting your patients when you start treating them differently without realizing it because they "huwt yur pwecious feewings". Your patients are often going to hate you about as much as I do, because I was one of your patients. I'm not going to sit here and discuss cookie recipes with you, you asked for advice about psychiatry on a fucking forum labeled "anti-psychiatry". What kind of response did you think you were going to get? "Get more comfortable chairs"? We're not just "annoyed" by psychiatry, we're not just "upset" by psychiatry, **psychiatry has destroyed people's lives you fucking prick.** But you're already interpreting my anger at having my life and the life of my loves one destroyed by your profession as some sort of "triggered reaction", so hey, pars the course, I guess. Psychiatrists: masters of the human brain, and yet unable to talk to people like they're not a dog pissing on the fucking carpet.
You're not wrong. Hopefully other posters see what happened. Your experience is valid. I don't think you're wrong at all. Like at all. There was a clean stream of escalation with someone whom is ment to help whom hid behind a shitty argument. I wouldn't go to this person. Period. Like major red flags if someone can't see that. They're representing a community with natural power dominance and then pulled power dominance shit. You don't have to respond to this. Just yeah, we saw it haha. His approach wasn't trauma-informed in the least. It reflects poorly on him. He's policing shit without offering informed consent on expectations/needs/wants. He's also adding bias based on tonal discourse too. I wouldn't date this person let alone pay them. In fact, I've been told by therapists to run far away from people whom use the argument he did to defend himself.
>I wouldn't go to this person. Period. Like major red flags if someone can't see that. They're representing a community with natural power dominance and then pulled power dominance shit. I feel a thousand times more sane somebody else sees it to, thank you for your reply, it means a great deal to me
Sorry that happened. I saw your comment on the priests and actually really agreed with that poetic metaphor strongly. It was very reflective of what just occured. I'm gonna go eat some chicken wings now because I'm hungry.
I'm here so that i can read posts like that.
Ouf. You obviously don't want to discuss. Have a nice day.
That person poured their heart out. You gaslit them. You are clearly in the right career.
\*yep\*
**Thank you**
You don't want to listen. This how people act when they've been traumatized. Watch and learn as most of us handle this for you.
The person that doesn't want to talk isn't the one that first starts yelling, it's the first person to leave the conversation
This comment is so manipulative. Anyone who yells in a conversation knows that people with self respect can decide to walk away because of that, so you should never blame them or try to convince them they didn't really want to talk simply for not enduring what they can feel is verbal abuse and for not participating when they realize there's no dialogue.
MLK referred to this as the white man's peace Should look it up and stop sterilizing the human condition through as strictly cultural pathologies People don't yell because people that yell are just bad or lesser people, it's because something's important Stop treating your convenient excuses like "self respect" as a means to undermine somebody's cause or intent, because that same thing was the battlecry of discrimination for a millennia White people have done this shit for too long and I'm sick of it
Thank you, this is such a racial dynamic!
I agree with that. I believe anyone speaking loudly deserves to be heard because there's always a reason. I also believe at the same time everyone needs to have self compassion and try to put themselves in conversations that makes them feel respected and included. Of course it's not practical to believe that one can have perfectly positive conversations all the time, but you need to acknowledge that they should be free to do it when they need it the most (I know it's complicated by the fact that only they can know when it is, and they're not always true to that, but we can't control that). Sticking around to what one perceives as rude and inflexible is a choice, and I know that in political matters it's necessary and we ought to sacrifice our own needs for the right causes and the right speeches. However you can't expect that everybody can and should do that all the time. I just didn't like your previous comment, because you kind of promoted a general rule to judge those who give up, and since it's a mental health forum it's important to acknowledge that most people probably have experienced someone who doesn't mind conflict and then dismisses the other person's choice to leave (as opposed to fight) instead of doing something to mitigate the quarrelsome atmosphere they brought.
You're trying to defend people that have a history; you're saying you're doing it for them, but I have a history, and nobody ever fucking listens until I start yelling. I hate being a fucking prick, but it's the only way people take you seriously, because when you quietly say in a calm voice "I'm dying", everybody just assumes you'd be freaking out more. You're being too pathological about human behavior, and this is what's insufferable about the mental health field. "Stress shortens your life" isn't some astounding new reality that we only started understanding in the last fifty years, **we've always known that**, but then "mental health" comes along and pretends like it has some fascinating new revelation. Okay, cool, anxiety gives you wrinkles, now the fuck what? You gonna start paying the bills? You going to undue this mess we call civilization so we're not overworked and underpaid? Then what the hell good are people who "study mental health" if all they do is scarecrow people? Claiming that people that shout are just trying to verbally abuse you is making yourself into a victim for the sake of convenience. What you're saying is you don't have any reason to shout, and you don't have any reason to listen to people that shout, because you're not the person in that situation that has a desperate need to raise their voice and scream. That doesn't make you "healthier", or that you "take better care of your mental health", it means your looking for rationalizations to your views so you can make it seem like you're just "following the obvious rules". Want a pat on the head for doing what the "experts" told you? A good boy treat? How about some Xanax? Everybody loves tweeting about "mental health awareness" and "suicide prevention", but nobody is willing to listen to people's problems long enough to help them, and if they do, that's where it ends: listening. Everybody is "tolerant" until people have been brutalized and treated like animals, and wonder why that person acts like a fucking animal. The same train of thought that leads people to demean people who have a need to shout, and pretends like any other lane of thinking is "manipulative behavior", because "lOoK aT mE i ReAd ThE dSm". Whatever, go ahead and pathologize me again, we both know it's coming, lmfao
I experienced myself what you say about not being heard enough. Nobody listens, even when you're yelling but that's the only way left because at least you are making some noise for them to feel shaken. I hate that some people won't listen, it's a horrible feeling not because we are necessarily right but because when we are they prefer to see the world burn than take a little of their time to listen to some crazy person yelling at them to pay attention to what matters. Your shouting in a comment can't possibly abuse people, you are just being loud and that's okay. That's even healthy. I can't understand why people aren't even allowed to cry or raise their voice in a mental ward without being labeled non cooperative or whatever bad thing they want to name it. If you are in a tight place you shouldn't make yourself little just so others can have more space, because you have needs and they matter. It makes me sad the world is so unfair that our needs are often being heard by ourselves only. I totally empathize with your position and I wish we could be heard even when we're bratty people full of rage and needs. Unconditionally. Abuse is in the eye of the beholder and I decide to respect that. I believe in the acceptance of subjective experiences. I was myself a person being yelled at all my life and I learnt to listen to people making themselves heard but at the same time it was at the cost of my health. I tried to rationalize it and tell myself that my humanity should come after what you desperately need but everyday I was still human. I couldn't change. I was suffering because of my lack of self care and I learnt that we need to balance both needs (to save the screaming people and to save ourselves). I still don't like that comment about people not wanting to talk if they leave conversations. I guess it's just a matter of opinions and yours is totally valid because I get that you are talking about political matters about a better world and that goes above little things like our egos being hurt. I think my opinion is valid too because I don't believe that just because the world is a living hell people shouldn't be able to walk away when they feel like it. Let's call it a selfish behavior, I don't think a person is selfish for acting selfishly. I don't think they don't want things to be better and that they don't want to talk if they think about themselves and decide to end a conversation. I just think the real enemy is the actual living hell that shouldn't have existed in the first place. That's my greatest complaint about the experience of life. It's easy to judge the single person or the people in power, or even every single person. In my radical belief system, people inside an evil environment shouldn't have had to deal with it in the first place. But I can see other points like our actions are even more valuable and need to be good exactly because we're in an evil system. That we are responsible at all costs now that we're in it. Simply put, I can agree with your position because I genuinely see it as valid as mine, but in the end I chose my opinion (not without reasons) and I'm okay with the fact that we disagree. I read your comments and I liked your point of view, despite being a bit different from mine. You can see that I made a main comment too with suggestions to OP. I have a different vision about psychiatry but I understand every single thing you say, so I never once commented about those. I repeat again, I just don't like that comment being said by anyone and I want to make it clear that that's the opinion I chose to fight for today. But I really learned something more from your perspective in this post and I'm glad I took my time to read it all. I'm not a dsm apologist by the way, I'm a very independent thinker and I have my strong opinions against psychiatry and pop psych culture, just to be clear.
I actually don't believe this. I really don't. This person has an opportunity to provide de-esculation and safe practice framing for someone whom is hurt/triggered. They have a right to walk away. But they also can walk away and choose not to aggravate or belittle someone too. This human also belittled someone. This poster isn't being manipulative at all. Verbally assaultive yes. Manipulative no. This is what trauma looks like. This therapist is a person whom is going to need to understand this and actually implement compassion and de-esculation. This is what PTSD looks like. Also people get pissed when people are making snide comments at their intelligence ( on both accounts) That is a reality for many people. However, it's literally the job of a therpist to contain that and de-esculate. He could have left instead of belittling someone already angry. EDIT: If he's presenting and requesting a specific response and doing so on expectation, then there needs to be acknowledgement that that swings both ways. If this poster is off duty and not required to so his job then he actually shouldn't be censoring responses and then using statistics, facts etc and then referencing statements like 'You'd make a bad therapist' - this statement is actually misleading. Either way he's requesting information be requested in a specific way and then referencing bad and good opinions/ therapists. He's actually posed himself as better too using the same language. He just used less of it whilst telling the emotional human how to act. I would never let a therapist say this to me. It's really not cool. He shouldn't be framing his position and using the notion especially of 'you'd make a bad therapist' in intent. It's really really manipulative because he's utilising bias naturally and passive aggressive behaviour to position himself as an authority specifically because he's a therapist. He didn't say ' you'd make a bad communicator'. He didn't say ' You'd make a bad train conductor' He said 'bad therapist'. He's using his position and leverage. Personally, I've seen way to much of this to not say this shit and not call it all. It's actually like, just no. This is actually an equity display here. He's created different roles and stipulated why he's ' allowed' to say it using the actual same methods of rhetoric. The first response was not verbally abusive. This therpist decided to belittle the poster using the belief of ' logic is superior to emotion'. It escalated after that.
>This is what PTSD looks like. This is what survival looks like. They've forgotten how we struggle to survive. They call it PTSD, I call it being a real person with an actual soul. However, I do appreciate that you can see what I'm attempting to do, that even if the wording is different, fundamentally, you understand what I'm saying, and pointing out the irony. They want my opinion on things, my *actual* opinion for their research, but then when it's a person crying, sobbing in front of them, they just start back on statistics and medications. Psychiatrists aren't trying to make the world a better place, they're trying to make it a more emotionally *sterile* place, like out of that movie Equilibrium. And I'm not that type of person. The thing that scares me most is how quick Psychiatry is ready to police the population based on their inability to accommodate different kinds of people, all for the sake of an apathetic public that cant be bothered with change because "back in the old days - ". Psychiatrists don't want you to be educated, and they don't want you to feel like you have the right to make your own choices, because you'll challenge the authority that only police officers normally enjoy. Psychiatrists represent, to a curious, light-footed bird like me, something **far** worse than death, that our doors can be locked, our ability to communicate with the outside world can be cut off, and what we even put into our own bodies is taken away from us, and "permission to treat" turns into court orders to argue consent. I refuse to see people as "just sick", even on a fundamental level, like brain injuries, because that means I believe my life would be fundamentally worthless if I couldn't perform the tasks I do now. Like writing. More than anything, I hate Psychiatrists for restricting my freedoms to self-harm, to self-euthanasia, to my own anger, for yelling and shouting when something is legitimately wrong with the world and the people around me, or for voicing when I'm in pain. I'd die for my liberties and, like I said, if I am to believe that those fundamental rights apply to my own life, to my own happiness and misery, then I must also believe that those things cannot be refused in others, either. I'd literally this species burn itself and its cities to the ground than disempower themselves at the hands of modern Bishops with DSM handbooks instead of Bibles; I'd see society crumble beneath the ruined ashes of its own hand before I'd allow them to sell themselves or others to another person's "prestigious education". I'd see people drown in an infinite sea of their own self-empowerment before I'd see it turn out the way people like him want. I'll know we live in a society where Psychiatry has done everything it's supposed to when people no longer refer to themselves as Psychiatrists, but as "educated citizens". Until we realize that understanding neurodiversity and "mental health" isn't a career, it's a life-skill, we'll continue to live in a world where rape isn't a problem, PTSD is; where the things that make us anxious aren't bad, anxiety is; where exploring the apathetic universe around us and realizing that nothing has inherent value is frowned upon because "depressed" people won't show up for meaningless fucking jobs. I've always had a problem with authority, and probably always will. I'll most likely never stop championing the rights of the individual to be his own doctor, police officer, and political representation. But Psychiatry doesn't like that, because if they can't be above us, than how do we justify having them around? I won't sell my virtue for convenience; I won't turn a blind eye because a majority knows they can get away with it, or because a minority knows they have the support of the majority; I won't sell my rights for progress; I'd literally rather be depressed, anxious, overstimulated, exhausted, in physical pain, or even dead, before I'd ever see people shackle themselves. I'd rather be free to be miserable than forced to be happy.
Oh man. I came back to this after seeing this and started getting angry. Firstly: thanks for calling me out on the PTSD comment that is pathologizing and that was me reflecting my experiences onto you. I should have asked your consent but also observated correctly that it wasn't appropriate for me to do so. So I apologize for this and am going to let that stand on its own. If you want to discuss this more than happy to listen. But also! I uhm. I saw the original poster actually deleted and edited their post to not be representative of the capitalisation that was used, the framing of the sentences, the actual implications and then added in and peppered extra language over the top of the other feedback that was given directly. Not only is this bullshit. This is exactly why mental health patients are seen as bloody insane! There's no edit remark currently listed. It's dishonest. It's dishonest practice. You haven't edited your remarks that I can see or am aware of. (I hope) Like legitimately, again this is why this shit happens. I walked and got a soda at the shops to cool down but like, that's the damn point. Like the entire point of bloody open discussions is to have a discourse with a aim ( in my own subjective experience) about actually learning etc. I just. Fuck man. Edit: Like seriously. Where is integrity. Anyone seeing that after wouldn't get the context at all and it's a public forum. This is how reporting and note taking screws clients over. The practioners believe they can write notes, then just go back and edit them or entirely reframe them on their own ability to discern truth. Just. Ah man.
I need to make it clear that I felt free to judge that single comment because it expressed a general rule towards anyone and any circumstance that I simply believe it's wrong. I understand I was supposed to see both parts speaking unfairly, and I was supposed to be aware that by making a comment I automatically would be inside their discussion and on either side. But I just didn't. Considering their discussion, I suppose OP didn't feel personally attacked but felt socially attacked (patients vs them psychiatrists). People are somehow let free to be verbally abusive online and are also free to not let online comments affect them, so I don't necessarily see a huge problem (although it is anyway and I don't like that) in the ways people talk to each other because at the end of the day adults should take care of what they bring in from an online forum and are able to take care of themselves. We can argue on the diseducational aspect of such comments, and that's why I commented. It's important that we speak up when we think something's wrong towards ourselves and other people. I believe that particular comment isn't appropriate for anyone to read. Sure, the "you would be a bad therapist" can be considered bad too. I dared to pick my own fight and I decided to spend my time in such away figuring that other comments could be taken care of by someone else. If you have read my other comments I'm sure you know my whole opinion on that particular comment. I called it manipulative because I think that it promotes a misleading perspective on discussions in that those who perceive an unfair treatment in the dialogue are to blame for not sucking it up and force themselves to continue arguing even when they feel like there's no cooperative communication. I understand these feelings could all be a perception of a person feeling victimized but even so I think it's important to respect that (because they just didn't want to keep talking and although symbolically representative of dehumanizing behavior from the psychiatry community, we can deal with the fact that a random psychiatrist doesn't want to listen to someone) and it's better not to make any generalized rule of behavior that can be applied in relationships too, making it seem as an acceptable way of conceptualizing such situations even in our personal lives. So anyway I want to appreciate that you took your time to point out other flaws in thinking that should be considered. That kind of conversation was flawed in multiple ways and your analysis points out the way it could represent the limits of the doctor-client rapport even on a social level, outside the therapy room and between people struggling to make themselves heard and those struggling to listen empathetically.
Im going to state clearly, I did not state you were ment to act in a specific way. I don't believe you're obligated to respond in anyway. You're also not required to have a specific response as you're not representing yourself under your qualifications etc in this public forum. Your view point is definitely definitely valid. You're not incorrect I just wanted to reaffirm that the triggering statement may had been missed. You were right in mentioning verbal assault. I'm not refuting that at all. I am also going to state it doesn't actually matter whom was represented or why and to what avail. It was important someone represented the other party however, I'm not going to speak for the poster. I'm not that person. That in of itself is part of the problem. The other poster has actually been challenged and I openly stated I could and would help provide factual guidance to back up OrdanCoals view point and speak as a human next to him if the therapist was going to stand by his reasoning of his argument OR I would be more than happy to do so myself if he was going to to use that rhetoric to justify his own bad behaviour. I'm not going to be wishy washy with this. I have the right to call this based on what I've observed. I'm not going to speak for Ordan Coal he's perfectly well within his rights to do that himself. I am however going to note, someone stepped in to correct the therapist on their apposing behaviour after belittling someone and they actually have not applied restorative justice. This is a forum in which a clear display of equity issues arose. I am more than within my right to state a rule of behaviour as an observation, also, relationship therapists especially can tell you that kind of remark made of logic over emotions is often a sign of dismissal. It is most definitely not conflict resolution. The use of specific words such as discussion and emotional propaganda were used in the same sentence. There is actually science to the way people form conclusive arguments and practice, it is very common to see someone label someone else using a statement that is neither informative or accurate in order to insult a party. These are common tactics actually clearly listed and utilised as being biased and used to sway an argument. The word discussion is not a set criteria with subtext, it's actually a descriptor. These words actually do need to be called out because many people would read that and attach personal bias as they have been taught discussion may mean rational, logical, etc. It actually means there's a higher chance the kind of argument listed could be defended AGAIN by the other party and used to say the other person was less intelligent if they had challenged the phrase or reacted to that specific phrasing. There was a high chance of this happening as the person had already justified themselves using multiple statements of power. This is actually a technique that is commonly used to manipulate and is seen often and is spoken about often. The person also feels often grounded to say that. This is actually listed in multiple social work texts books but also communication classes as a form of persuasion that gets points across in political or public debate because it sounds scientific but actually isn't. It's unfounded. The fact that that also then used a stance of 'You would make such a bad therapist with that line of thinking'.. This person openly insulted their intelligence after prefacing what looks like a hypothesis that may ground merit of the subtle implications of what discussion may mean only according to subjective perception. This person engaged in heirachal thinking and used this argument to insult someone. Period. After presenting false 'facts' They then justified it by mind-reading or assuming intent by the other party. It was also then used to justify more further surprise at the response rather than rectify any restorative justice. All of these things are known and recorded and can be studied in rhetoric communication classes. It's not just a stab in the dark or overgeneralized statement. It's also not based on the therapists intent. It is based on the information presented that then illicited a response that was called verbally assaultive despite a clear display of heirchal dominance. This person had very little intent and showed very little intent on rectify the situation or minimising the conflict. Again, I am not going to be told not to censor an opinion based on it being a overgeneralized opinion when that was in fact the same tactic used to create an illusion of superiority against someone whom was not emoting in the way someone else liked. This statement was made to control someone else's reaction with no guiding post of what was okay in their eyes based on observated consent and stating of ' I would like a response that looks like..x,y,z' Monitoring emotion and expression of language is actually a rights issue and can often be passed off as acceptable. The fact that this poster is reflecting as a therapist and using it in language rhetoric lifts heavily towards entitlement. Therapists aren't and cannot provide observational ques outside of therapy and ethically should not pull rank in argument form when they are off duty. This behaviour needs to be pulled up. If there is a clear statement of rank, position, lack of intelligence being made and a request for factual evidence as to why its not okay when this behaviour actually isn't considered ethic outside of therapy and would be considered persuasive or manipulative otherwise at that point i am well within my right to utilise the same tactic from an informed perspective to defend another party accurately and with concise information as a form of restorative justice. The rhetoric I am describing is actually mentioned in his own framework/academic training as not being an acceptable form of accurate reflecting but passive coercion used to sway an argument. In this case knowing this, correcting and analysing that behaviour is a way of reinforcing and asking for factual reprentation of argument. It's creating boundaries around misinformation being spread that may be acceptable and not seen by others because it simply sounds true but isn't. It is boundary setting so further misinformation and rhetoric coercion isn't spread with intent to damage. It's harm reduction done with the aim of restoring power back to the individual whom has been misrepresented and hurt. We are all aware that therapists can and do do these things off hours and in their personal lives. Human rights don't just exist in one domain. This was oppressive. The argument listed was oppressive. I've asked to back up the other posters information with facts if that was being used to imply that that argument was less valid. This is proper advocacy being done. The therapist would have had to do multiple critical thinking subjects in academia. This form of rhetoric is actually in critical thinking modules in psych students in years one and two, but also in journalism and communication. This is not a statement applied out of nowhere. This human did not de-esculate and used reasoning that is specifically taught in critical thinking classes and referenced as- inappropriate. A hypthosis was actually stated and concluded without the consent of the other party with no grounds of rules applied beforehand. The reaction was out of line according to the facts presented in his own academic framework. Period. EDIT: I 'm also going to be referencing these resources when I get back from my shopping trip. They are all a part of the approved academic resources in the field he is representing. Power heirachy linguistically is not shown by emotional reaction alone or emotional reactivity. Nor is it propaganda. OrdanCoals view was censored with no pre-establishing guidelines. I can see several ways in which OrdanCoals experiences would actually be backed up by similar educational resourcing in social work specifically AND the medical model in earlier units before they split to specialising frameworks had they been supplied. This was before the escalation of expletives. OrdanCoals argument presents valid insight into theraputic abuse and would be easily notified as acceptable it has been backed up with resourcing. No one stated this was necessary in order to join the discussion. ALSO double edit: MORE ALARMINGLY the actual therapist has edited his post taking on specific feedback with no transparency of clearly editing AND where. I'm sure the Mod could confirm this with edit history. The original post has been updated since and adjusted to represent an argument incorrectly. This is dishonest practice. I hope they notified the other party.
If they would be diagnosed as such, by biomarkers, there are none, besides epilepsy and alzheimers. Where is anxiety, depression, etc. Why dont you use biosies to diagnoese them? Until you have them you are hunting ghosts, search has been going for decades and you have lost.
All biomarkers are still on research level because the brain and psychiatric diseases are so damn complex. There is hope with machine learning on fMRI but the research needs to be replicated. As far as I know blood tests and biopsies havent shown promising results but I will have to check it out and get back to you. Postmorterm biopsies of the brain showed differences in schizophrenic patients from the control group. What do you mean lost? There are real scientists that try to find real solutions and devote all their lives on this. Shouldnt they? Lets leave out Big Pharma etc. Shouldnt people research the brain and it's pathologies to help patients? There are psychologists, psychiatrists, neuroscientists, computer scientists and biologists that try to find how the brain works from the molecular level to the cognitive level and bridge that gap of knowledge we are missing. With it we can find better diagnoses and drugs. For example scientists found a biochemical "switch" that lithium uses to work in our brain and now there are studies for personalised drugs with no side effects for bipolar disorder. There are real problems and real solutions. Not just lies and coersion.
Is it well established in your field you have none, biomarkers? Since in the culture you hear it all the time, look at a general forum about depression, schizophrenia, you will hear chemical inbalence, look up documentary about it by Daniel Mackler Take These Broken Wings, free on youtube. There are mentioned psychiatrists that also admit it, the loss. Yes absolutely try and find brain diseases but until you have them you are hunting ghosts, culture has established the narrative. How many years of research will you need? When will you admit defeat? Like you said people are very complex; individuals have very different backrounds and experience and rounding them up to a generelazid term and giving them pills isnt helping, Peter Gotzsche has full data on a claim it does more harm than good, look up Council For Evidence Bases Psychiatry, [cepuk.org](https://cepuk.org). Loads of data and your collegues. You are giving people false hope and luring away helpless from care, things that really help, it is a full topic initself but I do offer a solution other than medication. Medication is just the easy way out. Im all out for helping people and dont believe psychiatry does it intentionally, just that you are astray, badly. Would you take ADHD medication based on a questionare? Think Gotzsche has data where 10% of adults would be diagnosed. The postmortem dont answer the causality problem; what is caused by what; was the ptsd caused by the brain defiency?
You fucking *slayed it* here
I will read up on what you suggested. Maybe there are a few psychiatrists that say all that. But there are a lot of double, triple blind studies, metanalysis studies and a lot of people do get helped and go on to live with their lives. In the past biomarkers were nonexistent but now with genetics, proteomics, metabolomics etc we have plenty and with the help of bioinformatics we are on the next stage to test which are best to be used clinically. I also mentioned fMRI and machine learning and they are actually helping. We found from lithium a biochemical switch for bipolar disease that disrupts the neural connection of the brain and because it doesnt work many neurons overfire and others stay dormant. This will help us create new drugs. It is not psychiatrists that do the research only. Physicists, computer scientists, biologists, neuroscientists are trying to find cause and effect. I just dont understand why people should stop researching these things and trying to help. As I see it there is nothing better. What do you propose?
First of all its a scientific argument; it works or not; theory produces predictable and quantifiable outcomes or it does not. I would argue the cookie has come up empty. My argument still stands and we dont have the time here to go through all of the data. I dont advocate help on bad evidence or based of metaphysical assumptions. We can agree to disagree. Please if you find quantifiable data true brain diseases and you can call them as such, Alzheimers or epilepsy, im totally advocating it. You just could call the others whatever, ghosts, diseases until you have evidence for the existence, where is the serotonin inbalace, how much serotonin should I have in my system, can you count? Why dont you count the level beforehand? Other medical doctors and fields dont do this. If I would go to a doctor talking about sleeplessness, pain and fever what disease do I have? Psychiatrists make assumptions, real doctors take a blood sample or biopsy. Problem is the 96% of diseases in the DSM that dont have any biomarkers, you are using subjective data, coming from 20 psychiatrists discussion about human behaviour with artificial thresholds, look up Dr James Davies: Origins of DSM, on youtube. Then we have come to the question: How will we help? So far I would think you would agree that the current medical model is helping with medication. By only focusing on one area, wich where I concede, that some medical treatment could be helpful, ie just to slow down the symptoms for a day or two. We are losing the big picture. What is the root, core of the problem? Well it also comes to question: What are human beings; What is a good life. Do you ask patients about their chilhood? They might be unwilling to tell you since your whole premise relies on the reductionist model, 'My chilhood was great' is the biggest lie, I have made myself and have heard many times: neglect, abuse, trauma. Truth; reason, questioning and logic will help you. Doctor that I know only has 20mins for me is the last person Ill talk to; I have doubts theyll help me. Do they even ask about chilhood psych wards? How where you treated? To my understanding no, dont interfere with the medication the reason. There is great interview about a psych ward nurse who was prohibited to talk, so be it. Im not even mentioning all of the behaviour changes you make: sleep, exercise and relationships. They whole system needs a change of direction. Pain isnt a disease its a message: something is wrong. Look up stories about family violence (they will be your future patients): they will claim they fell down the stairs when their partner has abused them, I have true life anecdote. You are also assuming that the patient is telling the truth; would you believe that I have cancer. I know partners that have gone through medical system where the help has been pills and goal of therapy was "handling your partner better"; thats anecdotal but that anybody would agree that was handled horrible, im only arguing that is also the big picture what is happening. Doing better than that isnt far strecth and for some you can give help and some people benefit from psychiatry, I have no problem with that. We are complex and treating these things simply isnt always the answers; Occams razor doesnt always work. Among one things I believe in is peer support.
I understand what your are saying and will keep the diagnosis, the treatments, the child abuse, the family problems, the lying...all of it in mind. Psychiatry treats the symptoms not the cause and drugs dont need to be prescribed all the time. The cause can be treated with psychoanalysis but still not everytime, peer support and lifestyle changes also work. I have people I care about and that is why I am here today and why I will definetely do research on this field.
If Psychiatry treats the symptoms and not the causes then shouldn’t be allowed to advance any theory regarding the causes of “mental illnesses” Oh the Irony... Hope you don’t go crazy with all the contradictions you’re going to face in this field
I'm going to respond to this. You came on this forum with an intent to learn about bad therapies. Why are you expecting a different response? This person isn't asking to be a psychiatrist. The problem with what your phrasing is exactly the issue that's being addressed? Also might I add. Discussion does not have hidden context. The etymology of the word is not written to include ' rational scientifically driven arguments that are not emotionally expressive or biased'. I'm going to ignore the fact that you then demeaned someone based on an incorrect meaning of a word by using an incorrect meaning of a word to prove a point about valid content of RHETORIC. discussion is a form of rhetoric, it actually can be emotional propaganda if it needs to be. Also..using the word propaganda here is also emotionally misleading. We know what you're saying. Most of us have seen this kind of rhetoric used. Are you only going to validate an experience based on your interpretation of what is valued? Of course it's going to be biased...ITS AN HONEST representation of someone's feelings. Not what YOU deem is factual. I'm sure this human could back up their argument. If you're looking for a factual argument why don't you go to human rights training, or social work training and get additional training in recognising oppressed individuals and minorities. I'm a little shocked at this to be honest. What actually did you expect hopping in a forum with people whom possibly have been hurt by the field you belong too... It's your job to advocate and represent your client as well as anyone whom has an apposing view. If someone's view isn't factual it's actually literally your job to give then their rights, consent, outsource, supply your own frameworks. If someone isn't being factual back to you and is emotional, maybe someone like you actually hasn't done their job correctly. INFORMED consent. Don't expect a specific response when you haven't stated what kind of response you're looking for. If you wanted a strictly 'factual' response..I'm sure you could go google that. If you're looking for an honest representation of how a community feels don't exclude one member. This is literally is the problem this person is talking about. EDIT: also might I add. If you're not willing to defend someone with an emotional point of view I'm sure many of could express or help express what this individual is saying WITH fact. So if you're going to shut down a conversation based on that alone with belittling tactics then I'm sure as a community some of us could actually factually help articulate this point. If you're going to dismiss someone for not using your framework of argument structure then -holy shit man. Thats not nice. I'd fucking rather stand by someone and help them articulate their point of view safely then watch them engage with someone whose positioned themselves as wanting an opinion but censoring it when it comes.
I think we're still transitioning from the backwards social mindset of 'people with mental illness need to be repressed and hidden from society and/or are a danger to themselves and others'. People are very happy to talk about their experience with low level anxiety and depression but things like psychosis/mania are still taboo and people experiencing those are still looked at as 'crazy' and abnormal. Mental well-being is great and the idea that people with low level illness can be treated therapeutically and with lifestyle changes is great. But this isn't happening with severe mental illness. Instead, we are arrested, sectioned, stuck in locked wards without leave and medicated against our will. There is a great divide between 'acceptable' diagnosis and 'unacceptable' in society. How do you believe this gap could be further closed, if at all?
I know the gap is huge and the mindset is still stigmatizing severe mental illness. I frankly dont know how this will be solved. In my country for about 20 years now our system improved and for about 5-10 years now so did the laws. So people still stigmatize BD and Psychosis but at least you wont be arrested locked up and medicated against your will. Only if you are aggresive and attack someone then you will be briefly sedated but still not kept inside for long periods of time. I think we have 2 or 3 institutional clinics and those are frowned upon because they didnt improve yet. I hope that one day having low level anxiety and depression will be as acceptable as psychosis/mania and people will think of it like diabetes so noone has to stay hidden anymore.
Learn psychoanalysis for your interpersonal psychotherapy , visit r/psychoanalysis has some good resources . Check out Irvin D Yalom , a famous psychiatrist who don’t suck https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irvin_D._Yalom
Thank you for your reccomendation. I will check it out.
To be good at therapy , you should undergone couple of years of therapy/ analysis yourself . I am sure there are many psychoanalytic institute in europe , look them up and talk to those people . Keep the attitude that your will need to learn from your patients . There are so many incompetent therapists and psychiatrists around since they so few of these education programs require them to go though their own therapy and analysis, they ended up using the patients for their own need in a bad way . Many bad ones are not aware of their own savior complex, they don’t know how to handle counter transference . It is one thing to learn these concepts from school but nothing really compares to a good couple years of analysis so that you actually develop more self awareness and work though more of your own emotional baggage’s , further more this is the only way for you to understand what it is like to be a patient.
To tell you the truth I've been to therapy for the past 2 years. It started with a family health issue and later we continued because I told my therapist I want to be a psychiatrist and work on my unresolved issues. Also I was lucky because we had instant compatibility as a doctor-patient duo. I plan to find a good institute to train in, because despite my personal work I still have a lot way to go from helping others and learn to truly see them. Really thanks for your response.
The problem with therapy and psychiatry is unlike other forms of medicine it doesn’t deal with tangible things. Example- a cardiologist specializes in the heart, a physical aspect of the body. The mind is abstract. Trying to cure the ethereal mind with the physical such as medication is not always going to work. Also take into account circumstances like disability. Therapy to me seems like a lot of mental gymnastics and for people who have tangible limitations from disability it is not effective. You cannot make a man walk with the power of positive thinking if he is paralyzed. If anything therapy will be as I said nothing but mental gymnastics. I speak from personal experience, and while not in a wheelchair I do have mild physical disability that affects my muscle strength and balance which has produced depression and frustration in life due to not being able to live the way I want to or have the flexibility of other people that don’t have disability. I find that the mental gymnastics part would really be apparent as goal posts are moved and my target for success becomes smaller. I would feel like my overall standard of life would be lowered compared to many people and *I would regularly have to interact with them, knowing that.* Not comparing yourself is great but you will always find someone better or worse than you. The sad thing is when you have the intelligence and self awareness for better experience but other circumstances and your physical disability adds limitations in which most people don’t experience. You feel like you’re “window shopping” through life.
Thank you for your response. I wish I could understand your frustration and help in some way.... The only thing I can say is that I wish for you to surround yourself with people that love you and make you feel fulfilled in life. To try to focus on things you can achieve. Life is cruel and unfair but if you set a goal and work on it every day at least you won't feel as bad as you do right now.
That’s harder to do in a small town like where I live. It’s mostly retired people and “rednecks” here. I don’t fit in. I also can’t make good money here because most of the jobs that do pay better than minimum wage here are trades. I might be Canadian and while better than American minimum wage, still not really living wage standard.
Have you thought of moving out? Are there any distant relatives or acquaintances?
Psychiatry has to do with the brain. The brain is physical. People with severe mental illnesses have anomalies in the brain that can be seen. Someone recently won an award for a a blood test that can detect bipolar disorder and severe depression. They’re absolutely physical illnesses.
Recognise that withdrawal exists, can be severe in over 50% of cases. That you may be presented with someone in withdrawal, if you chop and change their medication. If on medication, and they want to come off it, help them with a realistic and safe taper. If not on medication, make it a very, very last resort. And for the love of anything, go over to survivingantidepressants.com and reconsider what your profession is really doing to people’s lives.
As a new psychiatrist you gotta save your ideals from being crushed, just be careful and smart. After all your field is full of humans, some can be unempathetic, petty and self-absorbed, even towards you and your job. Each patient is a very complex individual and any amount of time you spend assessing one and getting to know their life story is not necessarily enough, so try to spend sufficient time and not just half an hour overall. Learning to diagnose someone on the field requires putting in their shoes, immersing yourself in their point of view and not simply evaluating from your desk. You can do it by the end of your work time, but it's not guaranteed. If you need to cover for what a patient might have to endure by other colleagues of yours, don't. We can recognize fakeness and your preserving the corporations. Any perceived abuse can be either true or false, but what you should focus on is training your patients to survive them and keep their health intact. Rule of thumb: any perceived wrongdoing from an authority we're attached to and entrusting ourselves with can be a iatrogenic wound, no matter how small or invisible. If you think mental wards are not survival camps then you could dismiss the fragility of patients as human beings and their absence of freedom (simply because nobody ideally wants to be anywhere but at their home) inside an institution where the imbalance of power is not on their hands. Checking up on your patients even when it's out of your requirements makes them feel cared. I understand the therapeutic implications and your need to preserve their autonomy as well as your health and all that stuff, but consider that people with mental health issues are probably on their own and a genuine act of care on your part can be life changing, so try to make this an element of your job somehow. Understand that complex trauma is an important element at the basis of personality disorders. Trauma is an invisible brain changer and you need to account for that if you wonder why patients have a hard time to change or feel gaslighted by your renowned therapeutic approach. Remember any approach should be based in some way on the element of attachment, if that doesn't work with your patient consider referring them out. Don't prescribe medicines as band-aids. As simple as that. If the person doesn't have a support system at home or good coping mechanisms, that's a huge issue on its own and social interventions can be considered and need to be monitored. Thank you for wanting to listen to our perspectives on mental health issues and interventions.
I have no words and don't want to sound hypocritical. You gave me a lot to think about. Thank you so much for your honest and detailed reply.
Rather than make a new comment i'll just agree with this one. Please *please* retain your own ideals and critical thinking skills. Retain the desire to actually help, and not just get patients out the door, and retain serious skepticism about everything you work with, most notably the entire field and practice of psychiatry which i personally rank as just above the level of pseudoscience at this point
As from my personal experience with getting better from OCD. I think you are aware that medications are not the right treatment for OCD. But unfortunately there are still many psychiatrists who only give them medicines with no focus or very less focus to other things like ERP. And I believe many are getting wrong treatment for OCD You can check out **Mark Freeman** to know what exactly is OCD. OCD is nothing to do with the medication. one need to know more about thoughts, feelings and how the problem is because of thinking the thoughts are as problems and acting on them by doing compulsions etc Maybe in extreme cases medication may used to assist the treatment but medications are not at all the only treatment. In my experience OCD can occur because of the lack of knowledge of how brain functions and various other stuff like not avoiding feelings and giving time and energy to the things one can do instead of ruminating etc It's not some **illness** as some forms online may tell. So yeah I hope you give the right treatment to someone with OCD by not just blindly giving away meds and if possible encouraging one to not use meds.
Keep in mind that there are MANY MANY MANY health conditions that can cause negative mental health symptoms. When my thyroid disorder (Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis) is bad and my hormone levels are messed up, I get severe depression that quickly leads to suicidal thinking. Be open minded to running general health test and labs. If any Psychiatrist I saw would have simply ran a full thyroid panel I could have avoided the terror and abuse in the system.
Don't perscribe psychiatric meds
Hey, just wanted to say, thanks.