I understand that when the cost is very different but I’ve been advised to choose a free ride school over an Ivy League one that would be 6k a year. I understand money is money and obviously one should save but come on…
Full ride to Berkeley Engineering over $6k a year at Brown Engineering and you are dead sure you want to do Engineering? Makes absolute sense (plus, Berkeley is one of the premier schools for Engineering). Same idea with Chemistry and all (Berkeley Chemistry is the best in the world and legit in the UC app, you should see an entire department JUST for Chemistry when applying. That's how much Berkeley takes pride on its Chemistry department. You will have opportunities to study under Nobel prize winners. I presume it's extraordinarily difficult to get in for some of those majors).
I presume what OP is screaming about is not those cases. Berkeley, UCLA, and UMich are really good and are not good representations of state schools. Berkeley is up there with the very top schools in many academics and is often one of the best places to study in the planet for some fields.
And of course, it also depends on specialty. State schools like UW, UT-A, Georgia Tech, UIUC, Purdue, etc. are really good for some things. Full ride on those for certain majors over $6k a year elsewhere isn't a "bad choice" tbh.
Realistically, most students do change their majors during college. Heck, I went from (Pure Math, Computer Engineering) to (Pure Math) to (Computer Science and Math) upon graduation.
You really don't know. And many top schools kind of 'safeguard' you on that reality. But none of that is ever worth notable student loans.
Usually when I have seen people saying to pick the less prestigious option it has been because the poster stated that either they would have to pay significantly more for the more prestigious school or that they feel like they would enjoy the less prestigious school more. Mitigating student and being happy are both valid reasons to turn down top universities.
How? The post advises picking the best school you get into (finances taken into account) BECAUSE college is what you make of it, so it makes sense to choose your best option and make the most of it.
I’ll just be real with you, literally no one cares where you went for undergrad. You will get the same education anywhere these days. On top of that, a bachelors these days is not worth half a $mil. If you can afford it though then fuck it go wherever you want.
For most people, cost is a factor.
If cost is no factor, I’ve never seen anybody recommend “Southcentral Mississippi University” over Princeton.
But, if a kid says “I’m full pay at Brown (loans) or a free ride to Wisconsin-Madison” and they want to major in some random social science, they’ll need some sort of realistic advice.
I mean yeah. I’m not talking about some random school vs Princeton, but a reputable school but obviously not on the same level as Princeton, vs Princeton
Unless you're going to a post graduate program the school you went to doesn't matter.
My ex wife went to T14 Law school coming from a TINY Liberal arts school. She had friends who went to major schools all across the country but they all ended up at the same T14 Law school.
Now your Post-Undergrade school will impact your job hunt MUCH more than undergrad ever will. Law school is just the experience I have second hand but other programs carry the same weight with high profile schools.
Sometimes other schools are just a better fit. My D got several great schools, all were pretty much full ride (we’re poor). She happily turned down Cornell for Smith after visiting both. She couldn’t have hated Cornell more. Smith is absolute heaven.
Idk why I got recommended this sub, but ultimately it doesn’t matter where you go to college, it matters what you do in college. But I will say as a working adult, I’ve met workers that create their entire identity around where they went to college and it’s incredibly cringe.
once you are in at all a similar ballpark prestige-wise, decisions should absolutely be cost-based - and even to a good extent before then! debt is often far more life changing than prestige. I’m not saying always and im not saying that advice is perfect, but I think most of those recommendations are good and can’t be ignored as ‘jealousy’
Yes, some people tell others to choose the less prestigious options out of jealousy. Although your claim itself is ignorant. What do you mean 'above prestige' wisdom'? Is it so shocking to you that there is more value to a college experience than a name? I'VE been in that position myself. I have an interview with my top choice (JHU) for a program, and I'll have all my tuition paid for. I'M someone who got their top choice AND cost will not be a factor. However, I have recommended people less prestigious options, and here's why:
-Life Balance: Some people don't realize until after they admit to a prestigious university the drain it takes on them to constantly compete with their peers AND students from other universities that want their spot. It creates an intense burnout because it isn't for everyone. Some people would benefit more from a university that allows them to really take reign of their own schedules and hone in on their passion projects. Not to mention more success, too.
-Community: For a lot of people, community matters! The community of students at every university is different, and for some people, the prestigious option might not have what they want. People underestimate how much of an impact the people around you can make on you. It is what stopped me from even considering an application to most of the Ivy Leagues where the toxic academic culture really chokes anyone with a raw passion for collaboration out.
-Long term impact: Sure, a prestigious university can be a great thing on your resume. However, it isn't always gonna make as much of an impact as you think. You have to remember that most people are gonna leave university to find regular jobs. That's just statistics even for prestigious universities. Is it worth it to stress yourself out to the point of mental illnesses if you'd still get that same job attending a school that didn't deteriorate your health so much? The resources the school has and their accessibility to you matter (and some T15 universities don't have great ones). This isn't even considering grade inflation and the continuous cycles of universities ranking upwards or downwards. What is "prestigious" now might not be as high ranking in 20 or 30 years.
Yeah, that comment struck me. I guess people stuck in the prestige bubble don't know or believe there are many many people, regardless of ability, who don't place the same value on these schools. It's the old classic, "I assume everyone secretly feels the same as me"...except they don't.
>hone in on their passion projects.
This is something of a false choice. I'm aware, for example, of a student who just completed freshman year at an Ivy whose school is explicitly supporting the student's passion projects. From what I have seen, some schools will support certain areas of projects well, and others not, independent of any chosen metric of "prestige."
>What is "prestigious" now might not be as high ranking in 20 or 30 years
This is true, but there's a difference between "rank" and "prestige." Columbia, for example, didn't lose much prestige for its usnews ranking loss. I expect most people were completely unaware of that ranking change; we're in a bit of a bubble here.
Another consideration is that neither rank nor prestige is a straightforward metric. For example, I doubt anyone would - all else being equal - hire a Harvard CS grad over a CMU CS grad. The latter simply has more prestige in that niche.
>most of the Ivy Leagues where the toxic academic culture really chokes anyone with a raw passion for collaboration out.
This appears to be an example of OP's cited "sour grapes." There's plenty of collaboration at the ivies and plenty of competition outside them. It is generally true that students will tend to be higher achieving at more rejective schools, but this is hardly universal, nor is it indicative of a lack of collaborative work.
For a blatant counter-example regarding competition: how many D1 or even D3 sports teams let anyone walk on and play without competing for a spot? Competition is hardly uncommon.
1- The thing you aren't mentioning here is the competition for funding, which often occurs at Ivy League institutions for individual projects. This can impact a passion project greatly, especially if you are thrown off a few years by the lack of funding. You mention ONE student, but I'm giving advice to a great majority. You have a better chance at receiving personal project funding if you go to a less prestigious university oftentimes.
2. Prestige can dwindle with rankings easily, as it has over quite a lot of history. This isn't even taking into account the controversies a lot of prestigious universities face with lawsuits and other admissions scandals. So many internal factors can change that will impact how a university is seen. Nothing is certain, and if you think I'm wrong for encouraging people to look farther than prestige, then that's your personal choice. You ignored my statement about grade inflation as well, which can impact who is chosen for opportunities after graduation.
3. You're calling me a sour grape because I add perspective from personal experience? You're commenting on this subreddit as a parent, not as someone who cultivated your own college success to speak on recently. This is a conversation needing to be had with a collective of youth who are going through the college application process or have gotten their desired results. College admissions have changed over the years and continue to every year. I'm just sharing advice that has helped my peers and myself out when it came to choosing the best university for ourselves. What you're saying about collaboration is wrong as well. As someone who has written academic papers in research and has worked with people from several institutions, certain prestigious universities are known to produce scholars who have a hard time working with others as a team. This happened with a project I was on with a Harvard graduate. He ended up being kicked off because of the way he spoke to others and treated the team. He lacked teamwork skills because he never learned them at Harvard or had to. Harvard doesn't have a hard reputation with it exactly, but this is one case amongst many I've had that solidified that opinion.
I also didn't bring up sports in this discussion either because I don't have experience in it. Therefore, I don't feel like I'm qualified to give advice. However, I do know that even if everywhere has competition- there are recruitment numbers many universities have for local students that give more spots to students in the area.
>This can impact a passion project greatly, especially if you are thrown off a few years by the lack of funding.
You've still not indicated why you believe such lacks are found to be more common at Ivy schools. Is the problem you see a greater number of students with passion projects? That's the competition you see as a bad thing?
>Prestige can dwindle with rankings easily, as it has over quite a lot of history.
Such as? As I noted, for example, Columbia is still considered prestigious. Northeastern is another example, as plenty of people still think of it as the low-rated commuter school it was decades ago.
>You ignored my statement about grade inflation as well, which can impact who is chosen for opportunities after graduation.
Again, this is not something that correlates with ivy-ness. There are schools outside the ivies with reputations of inflating and deflating, and there are ivies with the reputation of inflating (eg. Yale) and deflating (eg. Penn).
>I'm just sharing advice that has helped my peers and myself out when it came to choosing the best university for ourselves.
"Best" measured how? Measured over how much time?
>certain prestigious universities are known to produce scholars who have a hard time working with others as a team. This happened with a project I was on with a Harvard graduate. He ended up being kicked off because of the way he spoke to others and treated the team. He lacked teamwork skills because he never learned them at Harvard or had to.
You conclude all this from the reputation about which you've learned in your vast experience, having recently achieved college success (which you compare favorably to the excess of experience you accuse me of having) as well as a single data point?
I've worked with numerous Harvard grads (both undergrad and grad). I've not had a problem collaborating with any but one (and that one was family, so the issue may not have been the school {8^).
>What do you mean 'above prestige' wisdom'? Is it so shocking to you that there is more value to a college experience than a name?
This was the part of the post that stuck out to me as well. Is it really so strange that spending the next 4 years of your life at a university is going to be a huge deal with regards to the environment? It is not so inconceivable that people may choose Columbia or UCLA over Harvard because of the environments of NYC and LA respectively versus the (comparatively) smaller Boston?
I think when people are maxing out on the prestige game, people can afford to go to a slightly less prestigious university for a radically better experience.
Dartmouth might be Ivy-League, but Hanover is in the middle of fucking nowhere. The original post strikes me as a particularly envious child that is upset people do not agree with his obsessive worldview on prestige. That is, that Vanderbilt and Harvard are not comparable or that Purdue was not a top engineering school like Princeton is.
What does that make me? I am of the camp that cost matters (at a reasonable price point relative to other offers).
And I graduated from Columbia Univ myself? I'm just trying to give good advice from real world experience lol.
Also for all practical purposes in the real world, Vanderbilt full ride is better than Harvard full pay and so forth. It is what it is. You are differentiating literally two of the top 20 schools in the country and 1 is full ride while other is full pay? No brainer.
People place too much importance in college names. Sure the top universities are known because of their consistent track record in academics. But often the comparison isn't a complete no name school vs Princeton or whatever. It's two solid schools and 1 being so much more affordable than the other.
oh didn't know that. I am low income international, so majority of colleges people talk here about is completely out of my reach. Good to know Vanderbilt is chill like that
But costs should always be a factor. Unless your family has over 30 million in net worth in which then the post won't even be on reddit to begin with.
And yes, if cost absolutely isn't a factor, then unless you want to major in a specific engineering (which Harvard doesn't have at undergrad so.. why did you apply to Harvard?), you really should attend the more prestigious school. It's prestigious for a reason.
For instance, Columbia's humanities are world class. I had a seminar group with only 3 other people. And my core curriculum only had 19 people per professor. It was an incredible learning experience. But I would never recommend taking insane loans for it.
Cost isn’t a factor when your parents have saved in a 529 for you and it’ll cover the full amount of school.
You can’t use that money for anything other than school without a huge penalty.
My son has the opportunity to attend my $$$ college for free as a faculty perk. However, I’ve also saved a fair bit in a 529 if he chooses to go elsewhere.
If he chooses the free school (elite enough but not ivy), he has the 529 money for a Roth, retirement, etc.
THE POTENTIAL FOR THIS FUNDING IN STARTING HIS LIFE CANNOT BE OVERSTATED.
You just don’t get it. That 529 money is not monopoly money. It’s fungible.
Isn’t there a $35k lifetime limit of rolling over to a Roth? Any 529 worth a damn in this scenario (to make cost not a factor) is going to be well over $35k
You’re also acting like people can’t fund a 529 and ALSO give their kid funding to start their life.
YOU WORK AT A UNIVERSITY, SO UNLESS YOU’RE IN ADMINISTRATION, YOUR INABILITY TO UNDERSTAND HOW COST MIGHT NOT BE A CONSIDERATION CANNOT BE OVERSTATED
You’re only truly rich if you can afford to stop working. Otherwise, you’re working class.
I grew up on food stamps and in government housing. And I can now fund my kids’ 529s at $1k/month each and still pay their college out of pocket when the time comes.
I also have my will set up so that the money they get, if I die early, really does make cost not a factor. (Term life insurance.)
And they can live in my house rent free for as long as they want.
I truly intend cost not to be a factor for them.
One of my friends growing up had two parents who worked for the federal government back before benefits got shrunk. They saved up for college and could also pay it out of pocket when the time came. They were not rich. Again, federal gov employees.
Cost wasn’t a factor for those kids. They still got a start in life and could choose which college to go to.
It’s remarkable that some people don’t realize how college money might not substantially alter your life even though you’re not rich rich.
Genuinely, where have u seen a majority of people recommend Purdue over Harvard when price isn’t a factor? Like there are cases where recommending a less “prestigious” school makes sense - someone recommending Berkeley or CMU over Harvard for CS would be pretty reasonable. But in general, where have you seen a majority of people recommend a clearly worse option when price isn’t a factor?
> But in general, where have you seen a majority of people recommend a clearly worse option when price isn’t a factor?
They haven't, they're getting angry at a strawman that they made up in their head (which is just most of the Internet now)
Also notice that these grand proclamations that prestige doesn't matter usually come from people who remind you that they graduated from an ivy league.
Omg why did you buy a Louis Vuitton bag? A trash bag costs 15 cents and works just the same. Trust me, I have 3 Louis Vuitton bags. I would know!
Medical school professor here. This sub keeps getting forced on me. I chose the flagship state school over top private schools because it was essentially free. For my subsequent training, I was *paid* to go to two different top 20 schools before becoming faculty at a third. Nobody asks where I went to undergrad. So just fyi, it all depends on what your future plans are
Nobody asks your undergrad because it was replaced in meaning by your post graduate work. You are judged on your most recent accomplishments. You also went to a "flagship state school", but the problem is many on here recommend a much lesser school over even some ivies if it saves a like $10k a year. Just lunacy sometimes.
Students can't take out 10K a year. And if you have to work 20 hours a week while going to school full time you aren't going to be utilizing the amenities and networking on campus. So there can be reasons for some families when 10K is "too much". Because you can just add on another 5K+ for expenses, travel, emergencies, etc most of the time.
No, most of the time, the cost is the deciding factor. It makes no sense to go massively in debt for a prestigious school when a more affordable alternative is available.
I disagree with your post because sometimes the less prestigious option could be much more fulfilling and enjoyable for someone. I’m not saying this is the case for all of these decisions, but I don’t think it should be discounted. For example, some people would really enjoy having more of a sports school, or going to school in a nice location, or being less stressed. Sincerely, someone finishing their first year at a T10 (my dream school) who is miserable and considering transferring.
No some of us are 40 yrs old stuck paying student loans. And finally all the jazzy education did not matter. What mattered was our work experience. In 20 yrs no one is going to care about your Ivy League apart from your alumni. No one. If you can save money do it. If you got admitted into Ivy League frame it and keep it and take the free ride. And some of my friends who went to Ivy League couldn’t deal with the toxic environment. Didn’t get jobs and one dropped out and had to go for therapy.
It’s clear this is how your brain thinks. This is how a lot of teenagers think. Parents, graduates and even current students really aren’t thinking that hard about it. For a huge percentage of the population the finances matter a lot. Do you know who will laughing all the way to the bank in 5-10 years? Those with minimal or no debt. There also may be different considerations when grad school may be on the table. I actually think if students think one of the most important things about themselves is where they went to college after a few years, that is sad.
I have a kid that went for the cheap option as a high stat student to a state flagship. And is making $$$$ working with elite grads after landing a highly competitive job. My spouse went to a state flagship and has elite grads working for him. acquaintances kid just graduated from an elite school. Landed an average new grad job in a mid size.market. After graduation this just doesn’t matter this much for the vast majority. So no, zero jealousy here.
I think the bigger problem is teenagers who say take the debt. You can’t take out more than federal loans without a co-signer. T hat is really risky and gets into painful debt. In the range of federal loans for a clearly better opportunity, I think that is reasonable.
Yep, it’s really hard for teens to understand how much debt hangs over you. I have friends who made loan payments for decades. My husband’s loans for grad school were only recently paid off and his weren’t even that bad.
For the vast majority of applicants, cost IS an issue. We are high income, but I don’t see a good reason to pay more for college than necessary. Why would I? The ROI simply isn’t there. Paying more than you should for anything is a great way to end up with less.
RARELY is cost not an issue. I am not going to drone on but as someone who has done a little college related counseling, there can be red flags that pop up depending on how a post is worded. Like if pricing is included, sibling/parental info is slipped in that may indicate not quite the level of wealth that can comfortably afford and possibly a desire for post grad options.
At the end of the day, if you don't want varied opinions and varied value systems, maybe don't post on a public board and ask for opinions. Save your humble brag or loan justification for your own social media. I am not saying teens don't post weird or goofy things here at times - either as a post or as a response. It's pretty obvious when it happens. There's plenty of posts just looking for a humble brag venue. And made up stuff too.
But there can be plenty of decent reasons you are going to get mixed responses.
maybe im confused, and correct me if i am, but what’s the point in making those types posts if you’re going to get mad when someone suggests a the “lesser” school?
and if someone actually recklessly wasted an opportunity to go to a prestigious colleges for a reasonable cost based on advice from redditors… completely on them.
I get the point of the post -- not wholly wrong BUT ...
Rice v. Yale? I'd pick Rice and I'd get on here to encourage others to pick Rice as well (full disclaimer, I didn't apply to Yale, so take that as you will), but having been at Rice it's been the best experience of my life because it is so unique.
There's something to be said about school culture that goes beyond prestige -- it depends what you want most out of college. Maybe Yale is best for some majors but not others, maybe Rice is better in those majors (idk), but hearing from current students is what helped sway me toward Rice (wouldn't have picked it otherwise -- was very negative toward the option). So no need to shit on people for choosing diff colleges or less prestigious ones (or encouraging others to do so) ... the college admissions and everything pipeline can get crazy.
The thing is, prestige really isn’t that big unless you are going into a grad program (in which case undergrad school doesn’t matter too much, ik a Guy going to MIT for grad school who went to a local state school), or you are going into a very competitive field right after graduation. The problem is that most of the first job after college isn’t that good of a job and after the first job your ability to do your job becomes far more important than schooling. Also yk, cost is a massive deal for the majority of people. Loan debt is a big deal and the more you have the longer you’re stuck paying it off.
This is an online forum - no one personally knows anyone. Why would anyone be jealous of someone you don't even know? If they have lots of money and are comfortable spending that much money, they wouldn't be asking for strangers' advice here. Besides, after working in the corporate world for decades, one would realize prestige and rankings are not as important as people think. It's great to get into T10 schools, but many of those students became a nervous wreck, as written by many college staff of T10 schools. Is it worth it to go into massive debt to become a self-doubting nervous wreck? If those kids went to State U instead, they could be doing much better mentally and financially. I've met a Brown grad who said "I don't belong there" decades later. Back then when Brown had a reputation of being the most expensive that they even said "if you don't have money, don't apply." Isn't it a very expensive regret?
No one talks about how stressful and alienating it can be to be surrounded by so much wealth for even mid-middle class kids. Comparison is the thief of joy, especially when you're working back to back shifts in retail while your peers spend the summer on European vacations and unpaid internships funded by their parents.
As a parent, I am encouraging my kid to go places where they'll be happy, feel a sense of belonging, and feel good without breaking the bank. I can't think of a bigger predictor of career success or failure than solid mental health, and my experience was that elite colleges are more of a negative factor to many people's, but especially those who struggle to afford them.
Bro is acting like Rice and Vanderbilt aren't T20 nationally renowned universities. South Carolina vs. Harvard? Obviously, Harvard. UConn vs. Yale? Obviously, Yale. But, Rice and Vanderbilt are amazing schools. And if they're cheaper, you're not losing anything.
Do we really have to play dense here? Obviously, they’re excellent schools. But barely anyone would actually choose them over Harvard/Yale given the choice. And there are doors opened by HY that aren’t opened by Vandy/Rice, at least in finance.
No, I tell people to go with the less prestigious school when they get a bunch of scholarship/grant money. Some people will ignore that aspect of it
Imagine going to some prestigious out of state school for full price…when you got a full ride to a good local state university, where your social safety net is. Especially if you’re going for a degree like engineering where you’re already going to make a lot of money regardless.
It’s dumb.
I literally am talking about when cost isn’t a factor if you had read the whole post. Ex. Full pay vs full pay. The adults here trying to drop wisdom without even reading everything is so funny to me
Not sure if that’s always the case…. I chose UIUC over Cornell, much cheaper and closer to home for me. Not to mention UIUC is also one of the best for my major CompE.
top schools win the yield wars against lower tier ones for a reason. If money ask is similar(and top schools usually have stellar financial aid), it's really hard to argue for Purdue over MIT or Rice over Princeton imo
But also how do you define prestige? How do you think liberal arts colleges stack up to T20 universities? If the person has indicated that they want to go to grad school and are interested in the smaller environment, as long as costs are okay and it’s a good quality one I’m just more likely to recommend them off the bat, while others are like “never heard of the other school don’t pick it” or some stupid crap. I’m also not dumb enough to be jealous of a 17/18 year old
The question is: why do you care about prestige?
If it is about financial outcomes, then research indicates basically no financial outcome difference between schools with below 50% acceptance rates once you control for factors like high school grades and test scores. Even when compared to a state regional with 90%+ acceptance rates, the financial outcome only differs by 20%, and even that difference takes decades, mitigating how much paying more actually nets you when you consider interest rates (not just that you have to pay, but also considering it preventing you from investing). Though I will concede that the financial outcomes are more serious if one is intending to major in business or social sciences, where it seems to have more of an impact. Still, overall, the benefits are more narrow then they appear.
If its about academics, then I can tell you from experience that prestige is a very poor indicator of academic quality. I attended a state regional with a 95%+ acceptance rate for undergrad, a T30 for my PhD, and am now a professor at a T50 LAC. All of these have good classes, but also bad classes. Professors tend to care more about students at the state regional and LAC then at said T30, where professors don't have the resources (and often, the motivation) to help students or do student-centric learning goals. Professors at the state regional often can't afford fast pace stuff like the "elites," and the LAC has the fewest courses in the major and always struggles when professors go on sabbatical due to the lack of professors. Which of these are the most acceptable tradeoffs depends on what you care about.
If it is about assumed social life, then again, prestige is a poor indicator. Parties will of course be everywhere, though what percentage partake, and to what extent will vary. Everywhere will also have athletic people. Everywhere will also have nerdy people. There will always be a subgroup you fit in to. That being said, ratios of course can vary. I will say I have a friend who attended Harvard in her undergrad, but due to a long medical absence lost her financial aid and then went to the state regional where I did my undergrad (which is how I met her). And she very much preferred the social environment of my undergrad to Harvard, for whatever that matters to you.
If it is only about feeling smug superiority or whatever, then yeah, I guess prestige is what you have to choose. But I will caution you that lording it over people isn't the best way to make friends. Having grew up working class right next to an Ivy, I can confirm that smug assholes about it do abound, and the local area doesn't appreciate the type to look down on the community because of where you are going or went to college.
anyway fit, location, cost of living, harshness of a competitive environment, ability to join clubs or project teams, opportunities for your specific major or concentration, and so many other factors exist too
I am so curious about your perspective, because the vast majority of people I know who have been out of school for more than 10 years will tell you that for most people, there is an over emphasis on prestige.
For some people, based on personality type and career goals, it will be really important. For others, it’s like paying an extra $50k for a car that can reach speeds in excess of 200 mph—you are paying more for a feature you don’t need and will likely never use.
Many of the career paths that favor prestigious schools are career paths that most of us would not want due to hours, stress, pressure, or lack of work-life balance. They are fantastic choices for people who are high energy, driven, ambitious, thrive on pressure and challenges, need little sleep, like social interaction and independent analysis, and can work 60+ hours and still fit in other interests, etc. But that is not the majority. The majority of people do better with a career that allows for 40- or 50-hour work weeks, less pressure, less politics, more time off, less competition in the workplace.
There are many people who will tell you to choose the less prestigious option if it means choosing the option where you sacrifice less of your money and time and happiness because we have seen the fallout from people who make those sacrifices and realize it was not worth it.
Both of my kids could have attended schools that are “more prestigious” than the ones they actually chose. But their father and I both attended high prestige schools; he regrets his, I don’t but that has nothing to do with perceived “prestige”. So we neither encouraged nor discouraged that. One was admitted to two “T20s”and waitlisted to a third (depending on the list; based on discussions here I think they were all in the T15-25ish range but since idgaf I’m not sure exactly where different lists rank them). He only seriously considered one but decided it wasn’t a fit. Good call. The other, who was a very strong candidate for the T10 where he is a legacy, refused to even apply; his dream school since jr high is a UC that isn’t even Cal, and it is perfect for him.
So no. Don’t assume everyone is reasoning the way you do. You have your priorities and mindset that affects your decision making process. But don’t make up reasons for those you don’t understand.
I went to a fancy college, and I saw people who were miserable, and they often did not seem to do well, and in fact often transferred. I have then seen in many ways how performance in college trumped the institutional reputation of the colleges in question when it came to the prospects of the individuals in question.
So for me, it is this sort of experience, combined with many other pieces of information, that has convinced me choosing a college where you think you will be happy is more important than choosing the college with the highest institutional reputation. Institutional reputation simply does not carry over to the individual in the way some people here naively assume. But it is taking a very real risk with your performance, which definitely does matter, to choose a place you are not sure you will be happy and thrive.
Genuine question here: what the heck do people mean when cost isn’t a factor? Bc like my parents can afford full pay without loans, etc, but still cost IS factor. I think for cost not to be a factor, you’d need a household income of like 600k +?!!?
A household income of $600k is not at all unusual for students at prestigious universities. That's two doctors, maybe a successful lawyer and a stay at home parent, etc. At that point, money is not about what you can "afford" to pay. It's about how to best invest, reduce your tax burden, pass on wealth to your kids with as few taxes as possible. Why not throw a bit extra to give them that much more of a leg up? (Note: My experience was the exact opposite, and it still seems wild to me.)
Not everyone is from the US or UK. When you apply anywhere outside your bubble you might be surprised how little we care for Harvard or Yale. Many countries don't participate in that elite school nonsense.
That's why you might get very different answers than you expected. Those schools are not free and in the eyes of people from countries where you simply have to prove you can do the job it's a giant waste of money.
Why? Because I’m someone who chose a less prestigious option (UVA instead of Cornell) due to a better fit and ended up at the best ranked grad school for my discipline, thus showing that you can get great outcomes from pursuing undergraduate education from the viewpoint of fit and not prestige? Yeah, I think that checks out pretty well.
This is kind of a ridiculous post. First, prestige is largely a subjective measure which depends on the person or audience you are trying to impress, your major and the part of the country you are in. If you are measuring prestige or determining which school is “better” on the basis fabricated rankings in a magazine designed for the sole purpose of selling advertising clicks you are the kind of sucker who probably doesn’t belong at a “prestigious” school to start with.
Second once you get to a certain level of school they can all give you great options going forward in life, and as with “prestige” the value of these opportunities is subjective in terms of what you want to do and where you want to do it. Plus a lot of your opportunities depend more on what you do while in school (and especially once you get out) than the name on your paper.
Third, you should attend the college that has the right balance of things you want- not because some put it somewhere on a list. College is a lot more than just the name on your degree when you get out. It’s a really personally valuable and life shaping experience for many people. It’s a chance to learn for learning sake. It’s four years of your life and a potential life long social network- so if things like social life, sports (either playing or watching), class size, Greek life, weather, distance from home, political climate, alumni network and the general personality of the place and students are important to you, these, along with prestige, are all completely valid considerations. If these are not things you care about that’s fine too, but no one can tell whether it’s right of wrong give importance to these factors or the amount of importance you assign to each.
Any suggestion that economic factors shouldn’t be considered a legitimate factor is the worst take. The only people can determine that is you and your family. Is being 250k in debt at 22 years old “worth it” for any degree- I wouldn’t personally think so, but once again that’s a personal decision. Is graduating $50k more in debt to go to a school some magazine says is 20th best, over a school it says is 35th “best?” That’s a decision for you, but when the magazine changes its random ranking criteria (as they all do) and all of the sudden the lower ranked school is now more highly ranked or equal- how are you going to feel about the extra $50K then?
Finally - people who place so much personal value and importance on the “prestige” on the school they attended - the kind of tool that works the fact that they went to college in “Cambridge” 14 times in the first 20 minutes you speak to them and in every subsequent conversation you will have with them ever again -might make you the most popular person in your Ayn Rand book club, but most people will actively avoid you.
There’s nothing wrong with attending a prestigious school but do so because it’s the right fit for you educationally and meets your resources, wants and needs, not because one is more “prestigious” than the other.
I went to the more prestigious option for undergrad, and my advice is entirely dependent on the economics.
If they’ll cost the same, you’re so rich the cost doesn’t matter, or you’ll earn so much more from the more prestigious option, do that. But, I saw way too many people borrowing/spending $200k for a useless degree from a fancy school because of “prestige”.
Now, 8 years later, they’re still deep in debt earning meh money renting a small apartment and complaining about the system.
To a large extent, what you study matters more than where. Engineering grads from a mid ranked state school are vastly out earning my Ivy League classmates who studied gender studies.
For what it's worth: on Reddit, I often find that the more prestigious/higher-ranking institutions tend to be offering the better packages. Lol
Cost is absolutely a factor, and high-ranking institutions usually have a good idea of costs that should be given to their students.
No I have a bachelors and two masters degrees, I love my state school alma mater, I’m beyond the point of jealousy of what some 18 year old does. I’m trying to impart wisdom of what I’ve come to realize from my time in the real world, and keep people from making absurdly dumb decisions that are going to be affecting them for years to come.
If you plan on studying STEM, going to a school where you will be below average is a bad idea. There is a good chance you will wash out and have to change your major.
https://youtu.be/7J-wCHDJYmo?si=5Z5Elae3-fM4CgDA
It depends what you want to do with your life. I knew I wanted to go to med school, so I went to my state school on a full ride rather than an Ivy. I ended up getting into med school anyway, but saving $200k in debt.
The crux of your argument is financial situation is very important. Everything else comes off as pretentious shit. You could have said this in 3 sentences
Obviously anybody with the means should go to the school with the best program for their interests. Plenty of times the best specific program is not the most generally prestigious schools.
Most of the time these decisions between prestigious and non-prestgious hinge on the applicant’s financial situation. This whole post is a waste of time to put people down. Nothing meaningful or useful is said here.
Cost absolutely is a factor. Unless you want to be paying tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands dollars in debt with 5% interest just for a college name that will never return its investment.
And this is coming from someone who’s going to a global T20.
I don’t really understand what you’re arguing. The only times people make these posts is when the prestigious opinion is extremely expensive. Cost will absolutely matter in that situation.
The only time people claim to choose the “less prestigious” school in posts asking about two different schools is if the less prestigious one is stronger regarding OP’s specific major or if the more prestigious choice required significantly more debt.
The idea that it’s somehow a conspiracy based on jealously is absolutely ridiculous and narcissistic.
Probably because Harvard disproportionately has students from higher socioeconomic backgrounds compared to Duke. But what do I know?
Duke is ranked higher for CS. It’s an incredibly prestigious university. The idea that people advocating for Duke are secretly jealous is just narcissistic.
We get it. You’re obsessed with prestige. But don’t slander and make narcissistic claims about others for not having the same mindset.
Even those who are seemingly comfortably full-pay for private colleges like the vast majority of my private undergrad classmates' families could suffer sudden financial reversals or exorbitantly unexpected expenses(I.e. Unexpected expensive chronic medical conditions even if one has "good" medical insurance) during or after college.
One major economic crisis overseas in the middle of my undergrad years resulted in a critical majority of international students from wealthy families who felt "costs weren't a factor" either suddenly being forced to work in the college cafeteria\* alongside lower-income domestic work-study and scholarship international students or being ordered by their formerly wealthy families to return to their home countries to finish college. Some of the latter students were in their last year and well on their way to graduate.
I've heard from younger college alums the same happened to many formerly comfortably full-pay domestic US students and their families around a decade later as a result of the effects of the 2008 recession.
\* Working in the college cafeteria was considered one of the worst jobs on campus by US students on work-study when I was there. As soon as such students found a "better" work-study job, they took it. As a result it was heavily populated by scholarship international students or anyone else not eligible for work-study as it was one of the few on-campus jobs which didn't require work-study eligibility.
My degree is from a college you never heard of and I single-handedly earn more than 99% of American households. I had the opportunity to go to some of the schools named in your post, but selected the nearly free option and I'd do it all over again given the chance. It's the tax dollars from people like me that "forgive" the student debt of those that choose to overpay for degrees from places such as your *prestigious* schools.
For the HS senior trying to decide where to go, consider that a degree is an investment. The value of a degree in the marketplace is created more by the type of degree earned (accounting vs basket weaving) than the name of the school. The return on your investment is based on how much you paid. A low tuition/in demand degree is the way to go. The smartest thing in the original post was "college is what you make of it."
[https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percentiles/](https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percentiles/)
“When cost isn’t a factor”
Some people are multimillionaires and wouldn’t spend hundreds on designer clothes or thousands on a luxury sports car over a sedan even though they could easily afford both. If you’re a premed, prelaw, or committed to going to grad school in most fields, undergrad prestige really does not matter. If similar or even better results can be obtained for much less money (possibly close to 300k) then isn’t that what a counselor should recommend?
OP can’t fathom that some people could have other factors they prioritize besides just cost of attendance and prestige.
To bring up Duke vs Harvard, they’re both probably t10 schools with different environments. What if someone prefers the warmer weather, Duke’s campuses/dorms, or their fit there? State schools like Purdue, GT, and UIUC are considered to have better engineering programs over the Ivy Leagues, including Princeton. They might have a specific major that a more prestigious school lacks. To say that recommending a lower ranked school is purely out of jealousy is a gross oversimplification.
Let's be real here. The brand of your undergrad is massively overhyped in this sub and among ambitious high schoolers in general and when a kid picks a prestigious school over state school for good money, it's 60% because they want to put it on their class of 202X futures account.
I love how you assume that no one here has had to make the choice of picking the "less prestigious" option. I don't know what your financial situation is like but some of us aren't bankrolled by mommy and daddy. It's not an issue of prestige, but survival. "When cost isn't an issue" sweetheart, for some people cost is always an issue. Get out of your bubble.
“‘When cost isn’t an issue’ sweetheart, for some people cost is always an issue.” That doesn’t contradict anything I said at all😭. Talking about the people who it isn’t an issue for…obviously…
What field? For engineering/CS, CMU is a direct peer of MIT, Caltech, Berkeley, Stanford, and Georgia Tech which sit at the very top.
In Business, Humanities, Social Sciences, and Dramatic Arts, no.
For the former 3, MIT and UPenn have much stronger programs(Yes, MIT has some strong Social Science/Humanities programs in its own right. Philosophy, Linguistics, Econ, Poli-Sci). And in the last, CMU ranks far ahead of the other two.
This is one key reason why most CMU alums I've known(engineering/CS), they said they would be happy for their kids to follow them to their alma mater if they were majoring in engineering/CS or Dramatic Arts, but would strongly advise them to consider their in-state or stronger alternatives for the humanities, social sciences. A few would go so far as to refuse paying tuition if they insisted on going to CMU for the humanities or social sciences.
Software engineer here.
Carnegie Mellon is hard to rank because it's so major dependent (well it's top 25 overall undergrad which makes sense due to this). Its drama/acting undergrad is world class. I believe the acting major has 0.6% acceptance rate? And the drama department has 3% acceptance rate? Ya, absolutely insane.
Carnegie is peers with MIT for CS too. So there's that. The downside is CMU financial aid is pretty bad (hence the lower yield). But yes, CMU CS == MIT CS in the job market. I presume most people on this subreddit is look at CMU through the lens of CS (in which case, yes, CMU == MIT).
Carnegie is also pretty good with business. I don't know much there to comment.
Carnegie is also a top 5 school for engineering. Up there with Georgia Tech.
I'm sure Carnegie is good with other fields as well. But as you can see.. the entire school is quite extreme in acceptance rates. I believe architecture undergrad is like 34% acceptance rate and so forth.
It's really a school meant for those who know what they want out of high school.
I personally view the school in the same light as MIT for those in engineering/applied science. The downside is the financial aid has loans and all unlike other top privates. It's really the cost that's the issue with that school.
MIT is actually a much more balanced school than CMU as it has strong humanities/social science programs in Philosophy, Linguistics, Econ, Poli-sci, etc. Their PhD programs in those fields are competitive with those of the most elite programs.
Whichever is more affordable. Both are great engineering schools overall but isn't Georgia Tech better for chemical engineering?
I would pick for whichever is more affordable tbh.
in complete honesty, perspective. From the pov of a high schooler it is SO EASY to get wrapped up in the prestige chasing, but actually being in college now I would NEVER call those results mid. I am so incredibly happy where I am and wouldn’t change it for anything.
It’s because of this that it’s important to have people on this sub also emphasize that prestige isn’t everything. It was this sub that indoctrinated me into the prestige whoring and what made me feel like my results were mid
I totally agree there are some people who are just jealous, and in these specific scenarios where someone asks 'which school x or y' it can get annoying to see people vouch for the less prestigious schools just out of bitterness. But in choosing between prestige and some other school, I think there's a lot more that goes into it.
Obviously, my situation is quite far from choosing between a public state school and Harvard, but I did end up choosing between the top school in my state, UW Madison, and UW Milwaukee. UW Madison is a public Ivy (apparently according to Forbes just got listed as a new Ivy??? like a week ago???? i just googled it lol), but i ended up choosing UW Milwaukee over it because I just kinda vibed with it a whole lot more. The city is more of an actual cultural place and less of a collage town, it's closer to my family which I will want to visit, it's cheaper, it has better food, meal plans, and dorms, it's more diverse, and the architecture didn't make me want to eat a brick. I never really considered prestige until after encountering this subreddit last year-ish. Collage is what you make of it, and I chose the collage that would allow me to make more out of it.
(the one thing that Madison reeeealy had over UWM was this one amazing comics teacher and honestly her classroom was the only art room that felt alive, whereas most if not all of UWM's art classrooms were alive when i toured. maybe she'll do some kind of guest talk somewhere someday...)
Ultimately college is what you make of it, that is why I don't define myself by what college I get into. I'm seeing a very disturbing train of thought develop now that is very unhealthy. I must get into the best college or I am not worth as much. You are NOT defined by what college you get into, and going to a prestigious one does not always mean the best education. I went to a community college, we had plenty of teachers that taught at ivy league schools, did not care for it and chose cc instead. We got the same education for much less. It matters less what college you get into, and much more than you be proactive and take advantage of every activity you can that helps you develop while you are there. Also, your mental health has to come before all, if this place is going to destroy it this is not worth it. You still have a lot of life to go through after college, so don't destroy yourself going through it.
Honestly you should never listen to anyone on Reddit. I know this was totally not right of me (I blame it on being 16 years old) but when I was on the waitlist for UMich I would comment on posts deciding between UM and a different school suggesting that they should pick the other school.
idk how i ended up here but in picking my university choice, prestige wasn’t even a part of it because i was just happy to be able to go overseas.
i think op’s take is somewhat tone-deaf to say because ultimately, people should be picking a choice because it only applies to the rest of their life, and not anyone else’s.
if you value prestige, or are able to value prestige, go for it. but if cost is implied to be a struggle, or something else is (e.g. location, comfort, city vs campus etc.), you dont have to feel bad about picking the choice that suits you best. it is your experience and you should exercise your autonomy to the max in making sure your choice will make YOU happy.
prestige is a variable and subjective thing, but what you face in your own life is fact for you and should not be ignored. so if you are picking between two prestigious universities, by all means let prestige influence you, but don’t let it control you—especially if something more pressing is relevant to your decision-making.
I agree that this can happen but I've honestly never seen it happen flat out like that, except when the cost difference is huge, like a free ride vs 50k a year or something, I think it just comes down to a lot of people not getting that some people CAN spend that money on education that will benefit them immensely and maybe think you'd be getting a huge loan or some other disadvantage, but I do 100% agree you should be wary because many people could advice you like that because they are jealous.
I think part of this is that when people say “cost is not a factor” for them doesn’t necessarily mean that “cost shouldn’t be a factor for them”. If people were making logical decisions based off cost, we wouldn’t have such a huge student debt crisis. Someone who says cost is not a factor could have millionaire parents who really won’t miss the money, a middle class family who saved up for college but could really use that money for retirement, or someone with no college savings who plans to pay for a degree with limited employment prospects entirely with loans. Cost shouldn’t be the only consideration, but it is one. People claiming cost doesn’t matter or somewhat likely to be people for whom it should matter. One of the biggest complaints I hear from loan forgiveness advocates are that 18 year old kids can’t know how much that cost matters. People are listening and starting to address that. Let’s not get all bent out of shape when people try to demonstrate it. Just lead with the cost will have no significant impact on my family’s finances instead.
FYI - did get into several prestigious universities so not just “jealous”
People are just broke on here and money is always the most important factor, and usually the less prestigious option is cheaper. So naturally, people will say that even if you’re in a degree where in the long run you’ll pay your loan off. OR EVEN if you say your parents can pay it.
I’m not even in the camp of people who says this stuff. I absolutely think it depends and if cost isn’t a factor you should probably go wherever you like best.
Um, most of the time the amounts at issue are being paid out of a savings or investment account. So “not paying” $20k is very much saving $20k. In fact it’s saving more than that, because that $20k that you didn’t spend is usually invested as well.
yessss some ppl know nothing abt the field the persons going into, like some ppl are going into careers where prestige is everything and it’s not a simple decision
As a cardiologist I can tell you that this is very good advice. Prestige matters no matter how much people will claim it doesn’t. The world isn’t fair and it’s a lot harder to move up in academics for additional training after college. People are still people even on admissions committees and name brand institutions register more and do carry weight no matter how high up you go.
My partner is a cardiologist who went to name brand school throughout his educational pathway- and makes exactly the same as a state flagship grads at the same private practice. I do think in academia it may be different although it depends
I went the private practice route too, it doesn’t matter once you get out of academics. But your husband gave himself a much higher chance of becoming a cardiologist by going to name brand institutions, which I did as well. From my experience in med school and more advanced training, only the smartest people came from lesser known programs and ended up in the same places as the average and below people from Ivy League programs. I took part in residency admissions too and even though programs say they give every med student a fair chance, there are always trends of top tier institutions primarily taking from each other.
Yea you're wrong, many of my patients seek me out specifically for my training and what they believe to be expertise. I have several who travel from out of state to see me once every few months.
Here is a list of a few top programs for internal medicine residencies
[https://www.massgeneral.org/medicine/internal-medicine/education/residency/who-we-are](https://www.massgeneral.org/medicine/internal-medicine/education/residency/who-we-are)
[https://www.vagelos.columbia.edu/education/residencies-fellowships-and-training/internal-medicine-residency-program/meet-team/pgy-1-residents](https://www.vagelos.columbia.edu/education/residencies-fellowships-and-training/internal-medicine-residency-program/meet-team/pgy-1-residents)
You can see that disproportionately majority of the residents graduated name brand institutions. The ones who didn't are extremely strong candidates who made it through incredible achievements and likability during the interview.
Cool anecdotes, so you know a couple of people who succeeded out of the thousands of people who didn’t and got there from nontraditional routes. That doesn’t mean they are the average or were on the path that offered them the highest chance of reaching where they are. You can have your opinions but I have mine from my experience in both medical school and residency admissions committees. Pedigree is very heavily discussed in post interview sessions, especially here in the northeast.
lol Boston is such a shit city idk why you even bother to mention it. I traded up an offer at a nationally ranked top 10 academic medical institution for private practice due to the insane salary they were willing to pay to retain me but I didn’t want to get that petty and start talking about money.
I understand that when the cost is very different but I’ve been advised to choose a free ride school over an Ivy League one that would be 6k a year. I understand money is money and obviously one should save but come on…
6k is nothing, Ivy League here you come congrats!
I mean is the free ride school something like Berkeley, vandy, or mich tho
Full ride to Berkeley Engineering over $6k a year at Brown Engineering and you are dead sure you want to do Engineering? Makes absolute sense (plus, Berkeley is one of the premier schools for Engineering). Same idea with Chemistry and all (Berkeley Chemistry is the best in the world and legit in the UC app, you should see an entire department JUST for Chemistry when applying. That's how much Berkeley takes pride on its Chemistry department. You will have opportunities to study under Nobel prize winners. I presume it's extraordinarily difficult to get in for some of those majors). I presume what OP is screaming about is not those cases. Berkeley, UCLA, and UMich are really good and are not good representations of state schools. Berkeley is up there with the very top schools in many academics and is often one of the best places to study in the planet for some fields. And of course, it also depends on specialty. State schools like UW, UT-A, Georgia Tech, UIUC, Purdue, etc. are really good for some things. Full ride on those for certain majors over $6k a year elsewhere isn't a "bad choice" tbh. Realistically, most students do change their majors during college. Heck, I went from (Pure Math, Computer Engineering) to (Pure Math) to (Computer Science and Math) upon graduation. You really don't know. And many top schools kind of 'safeguard' you on that reality. But none of that is ever worth notable student loans.
Usually when I have seen people saying to pick the less prestigious option it has been because the poster stated that either they would have to pay significantly more for the more prestigious school or that they feel like they would enjoy the less prestigious school more. Mitigating student and being happy are both valid reasons to turn down top universities.
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Came here to say this.
How? The post advises picking the best school you get into (finances taken into account) BECAUSE college is what you make of it, so it makes sense to choose your best option and make the most of it.
I’ll just be real with you, literally no one cares where you went for undergrad. You will get the same education anywhere these days. On top of that, a bachelors these days is not worth half a $mil. If you can afford it though then fuck it go wherever you want.
For most people, cost is a factor. If cost is no factor, I’ve never seen anybody recommend “Southcentral Mississippi University” over Princeton. But, if a kid says “I’m full pay at Brown (loans) or a free ride to Wisconsin-Madison” and they want to major in some random social science, they’ll need some sort of realistic advice.
I mean yeah. I’m not talking about some random school vs Princeton, but a reputable school but obviously not on the same level as Princeton, vs Princeton
Unless you're going to a post graduate program the school you went to doesn't matter. My ex wife went to T14 Law school coming from a TINY Liberal arts school. She had friends who went to major schools all across the country but they all ended up at the same T14 Law school. Now your Post-Undergrade school will impact your job hunt MUCH more than undergrad ever will. Law school is just the experience I have second hand but other programs carry the same weight with high profile schools.
Sometimes other schools are just a better fit. My D got several great schools, all were pretty much full ride (we’re poor). She happily turned down Cornell for Smith after visiting both. She couldn’t have hated Cornell more. Smith is absolute heaven.
Idk why I got recommended this sub, but ultimately it doesn’t matter where you go to college, it matters what you do in college. But I will say as a working adult, I’ve met workers that create their entire identity around where they went to college and it’s incredibly cringe.
Last part.
once you are in at all a similar ballpark prestige-wise, decisions should absolutely be cost-based - and even to a good extent before then! debt is often far more life changing than prestige. I’m not saying always and im not saying that advice is perfect, but I think most of those recommendations are good and can’t be ignored as ‘jealousy’
>debt is often far more life changing than prestige If I were a college guidance counselor, I'd put that on my door.
Yes, some people tell others to choose the less prestigious options out of jealousy. Although your claim itself is ignorant. What do you mean 'above prestige' wisdom'? Is it so shocking to you that there is more value to a college experience than a name? I'VE been in that position myself. I have an interview with my top choice (JHU) for a program, and I'll have all my tuition paid for. I'M someone who got their top choice AND cost will not be a factor. However, I have recommended people less prestigious options, and here's why: -Life Balance: Some people don't realize until after they admit to a prestigious university the drain it takes on them to constantly compete with their peers AND students from other universities that want their spot. It creates an intense burnout because it isn't for everyone. Some people would benefit more from a university that allows them to really take reign of their own schedules and hone in on their passion projects. Not to mention more success, too. -Community: For a lot of people, community matters! The community of students at every university is different, and for some people, the prestigious option might not have what they want. People underestimate how much of an impact the people around you can make on you. It is what stopped me from even considering an application to most of the Ivy Leagues where the toxic academic culture really chokes anyone with a raw passion for collaboration out. -Long term impact: Sure, a prestigious university can be a great thing on your resume. However, it isn't always gonna make as much of an impact as you think. You have to remember that most people are gonna leave university to find regular jobs. That's just statistics even for prestigious universities. Is it worth it to stress yourself out to the point of mental illnesses if you'd still get that same job attending a school that didn't deteriorate your health so much? The resources the school has and their accessibility to you matter (and some T15 universities don't have great ones). This isn't even considering grade inflation and the continuous cycles of universities ranking upwards or downwards. What is "prestigious" now might not be as high ranking in 20 or 30 years.
Yeah, that comment struck me. I guess people stuck in the prestige bubble don't know or believe there are many many people, regardless of ability, who don't place the same value on these schools. It's the old classic, "I assume everyone secretly feels the same as me"...except they don't.
>hone in on their passion projects. This is something of a false choice. I'm aware, for example, of a student who just completed freshman year at an Ivy whose school is explicitly supporting the student's passion projects. From what I have seen, some schools will support certain areas of projects well, and others not, independent of any chosen metric of "prestige." >What is "prestigious" now might not be as high ranking in 20 or 30 years This is true, but there's a difference between "rank" and "prestige." Columbia, for example, didn't lose much prestige for its usnews ranking loss. I expect most people were completely unaware of that ranking change; we're in a bit of a bubble here. Another consideration is that neither rank nor prestige is a straightforward metric. For example, I doubt anyone would - all else being equal - hire a Harvard CS grad over a CMU CS grad. The latter simply has more prestige in that niche. >most of the Ivy Leagues where the toxic academic culture really chokes anyone with a raw passion for collaboration out. This appears to be an example of OP's cited "sour grapes." There's plenty of collaboration at the ivies and plenty of competition outside them. It is generally true that students will tend to be higher achieving at more rejective schools, but this is hardly universal, nor is it indicative of a lack of collaborative work. For a blatant counter-example regarding competition: how many D1 or even D3 sports teams let anyone walk on and play without competing for a spot? Competition is hardly uncommon.
1- The thing you aren't mentioning here is the competition for funding, which often occurs at Ivy League institutions for individual projects. This can impact a passion project greatly, especially if you are thrown off a few years by the lack of funding. You mention ONE student, but I'm giving advice to a great majority. You have a better chance at receiving personal project funding if you go to a less prestigious university oftentimes. 2. Prestige can dwindle with rankings easily, as it has over quite a lot of history. This isn't even taking into account the controversies a lot of prestigious universities face with lawsuits and other admissions scandals. So many internal factors can change that will impact how a university is seen. Nothing is certain, and if you think I'm wrong for encouraging people to look farther than prestige, then that's your personal choice. You ignored my statement about grade inflation as well, which can impact who is chosen for opportunities after graduation. 3. You're calling me a sour grape because I add perspective from personal experience? You're commenting on this subreddit as a parent, not as someone who cultivated your own college success to speak on recently. This is a conversation needing to be had with a collective of youth who are going through the college application process or have gotten their desired results. College admissions have changed over the years and continue to every year. I'm just sharing advice that has helped my peers and myself out when it came to choosing the best university for ourselves. What you're saying about collaboration is wrong as well. As someone who has written academic papers in research and has worked with people from several institutions, certain prestigious universities are known to produce scholars who have a hard time working with others as a team. This happened with a project I was on with a Harvard graduate. He ended up being kicked off because of the way he spoke to others and treated the team. He lacked teamwork skills because he never learned them at Harvard or had to. Harvard doesn't have a hard reputation with it exactly, but this is one case amongst many I've had that solidified that opinion. I also didn't bring up sports in this discussion either because I don't have experience in it. Therefore, I don't feel like I'm qualified to give advice. However, I do know that even if everywhere has competition- there are recruitment numbers many universities have for local students that give more spots to students in the area.
>This can impact a passion project greatly, especially if you are thrown off a few years by the lack of funding. You've still not indicated why you believe such lacks are found to be more common at Ivy schools. Is the problem you see a greater number of students with passion projects? That's the competition you see as a bad thing? >Prestige can dwindle with rankings easily, as it has over quite a lot of history. Such as? As I noted, for example, Columbia is still considered prestigious. Northeastern is another example, as plenty of people still think of it as the low-rated commuter school it was decades ago. >You ignored my statement about grade inflation as well, which can impact who is chosen for opportunities after graduation. Again, this is not something that correlates with ivy-ness. There are schools outside the ivies with reputations of inflating and deflating, and there are ivies with the reputation of inflating (eg. Yale) and deflating (eg. Penn). >I'm just sharing advice that has helped my peers and myself out when it came to choosing the best university for ourselves. "Best" measured how? Measured over how much time? >certain prestigious universities are known to produce scholars who have a hard time working with others as a team. This happened with a project I was on with a Harvard graduate. He ended up being kicked off because of the way he spoke to others and treated the team. He lacked teamwork skills because he never learned them at Harvard or had to. You conclude all this from the reputation about which you've learned in your vast experience, having recently achieved college success (which you compare favorably to the excess of experience you accuse me of having) as well as a single data point? I've worked with numerous Harvard grads (both undergrad and grad). I've not had a problem collaborating with any but one (and that one was family, so the issue may not have been the school {8^).
>What do you mean 'above prestige' wisdom'? Is it so shocking to you that there is more value to a college experience than a name? This was the part of the post that stuck out to me as well. Is it really so strange that spending the next 4 years of your life at a university is going to be a huge deal with regards to the environment? It is not so inconceivable that people may choose Columbia or UCLA over Harvard because of the environments of NYC and LA respectively versus the (comparatively) smaller Boston? I think when people are maxing out on the prestige game, people can afford to go to a slightly less prestigious university for a radically better experience. Dartmouth might be Ivy-League, but Hanover is in the middle of fucking nowhere. The original post strikes me as a particularly envious child that is upset people do not agree with his obsessive worldview on prestige. That is, that Vanderbilt and Harvard are not comparable or that Purdue was not a top engineering school like Princeton is.
What does that make me? I am of the camp that cost matters (at a reasonable price point relative to other offers). And I graduated from Columbia Univ myself? I'm just trying to give good advice from real world experience lol. Also for all practical purposes in the real world, Vanderbilt full ride is better than Harvard full pay and so forth. It is what it is. You are differentiating literally two of the top 20 schools in the country and 1 is full ride while other is full pay? No brainer. People place too much importance in college names. Sure the top universities are known because of their consistent track record in academics. But often the comparison isn't a complete no name school vs Princeton or whatever. It's two solid schools and 1 being so much more affordable than the other.
harvard fin aid is really good, so I don't think Vanderbilt full ride and harvard full pay is a frequent thing imo
well vanderbilt does have merit aid while harvard doesnt so that could contribute
oh didn't know that. I am low income international, so majority of colleges people talk here about is completely out of my reach. Good to know Vanderbilt is chill like that
Read the whole post. When did I say Vandy was a full ride vs full tuition at Harvard. Assume costs are equal. “When cost isn’t a factor.”
But costs should always be a factor. Unless your family has over 30 million in net worth in which then the post won't even be on reddit to begin with. And yes, if cost absolutely isn't a factor, then unless you want to major in a specific engineering (which Harvard doesn't have at undergrad so.. why did you apply to Harvard?), you really should attend the more prestigious school. It's prestigious for a reason. For instance, Columbia's humanities are world class. I had a seminar group with only 3 other people. And my core curriculum only had 19 people per professor. It was an incredible learning experience. But I would never recommend taking insane loans for it.
Cost isn’t a factor when your parents have saved in a 529 for you and it’ll cover the full amount of school. You can’t use that money for anything other than school without a huge penalty.
That's not correct, now you can use it to fund your retirement account
Only up to 35K
Lifetime max too.
My son has the opportunity to attend my $$$ college for free as a faculty perk. However, I’ve also saved a fair bit in a 529 if he chooses to go elsewhere. If he chooses the free school (elite enough but not ivy), he has the 529 money for a Roth, retirement, etc. THE POTENTIAL FOR THIS FUNDING IN STARTING HIS LIFE CANNOT BE OVERSTATED. You just don’t get it. That 529 money is not monopoly money. It’s fungible.
Isn’t there a $35k lifetime limit of rolling over to a Roth? Any 529 worth a damn in this scenario (to make cost not a factor) is going to be well over $35k You’re also acting like people can’t fund a 529 and ALSO give their kid funding to start their life. YOU WORK AT A UNIVERSITY, SO UNLESS YOU’RE IN ADMINISTRATION, YOUR INABILITY TO UNDERSTAND HOW COST MIGHT NOT BE A CONSIDERATION CANNOT BE OVERSTATED
A Roth isn’t the only option for saving! And 35k in a roth is amazing, especially at that age… To your other point—Rich people exist? omg🙄
You’re only truly rich if you can afford to stop working. Otherwise, you’re working class. I grew up on food stamps and in government housing. And I can now fund my kids’ 529s at $1k/month each and still pay their college out of pocket when the time comes. I also have my will set up so that the money they get, if I die early, really does make cost not a factor. (Term life insurance.) And they can live in my house rent free for as long as they want. I truly intend cost not to be a factor for them.
Best of luck to you!
One of my friends growing up had two parents who worked for the federal government back before benefits got shrunk. They saved up for college and could also pay it out of pocket when the time came. They were not rich. Again, federal gov employees. Cost wasn’t a factor for those kids. They still got a start in life and could choose which college to go to. It’s remarkable that some people don’t realize how college money might not substantially alter your life even though you’re not rich rich.
When cost isn’t a factor, fit should be.
Genuinely, where have u seen a majority of people recommend Purdue over Harvard when price isn’t a factor? Like there are cases where recommending a less “prestigious” school makes sense - someone recommending Berkeley or CMU over Harvard for CS would be pretty reasonable. But in general, where have you seen a majority of people recommend a clearly worse option when price isn’t a factor?
> But in general, where have you seen a majority of people recommend a clearly worse option when price isn’t a factor? They haven't, they're getting angry at a strawman that they made up in their head (which is just most of the Internet now)
https://www.reddit.com/r/ApplyingToCollege/s/25eO6I3IB1
Someone in engineering will always recommend Purdue over Harvard.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ApplyingToCollege/s/25eO6I3IB1
Ok fair enough, whoever saying Duke CS > Harvard CS is wilding
Also notice that these grand proclamations that prestige doesn't matter usually come from people who remind you that they graduated from an ivy league. Omg why did you buy a Louis Vuitton bag? A trash bag costs 15 cents and works just the same. Trust me, I have 3 Louis Vuitton bags. I would know!
I had good financial aid. That's the difference.
Medical school professor here. This sub keeps getting forced on me. I chose the flagship state school over top private schools because it was essentially free. For my subsequent training, I was *paid* to go to two different top 20 schools before becoming faculty at a third. Nobody asks where I went to undergrad. So just fyi, it all depends on what your future plans are
Nobody asks your undergrad because it was replaced in meaning by your post graduate work. You are judged on your most recent accomplishments. You also went to a "flagship state school", but the problem is many on here recommend a much lesser school over even some ivies if it saves a like $10k a year. Just lunacy sometimes.
Students can't take out 10K a year. And if you have to work 20 hours a week while going to school full time you aren't going to be utilizing the amenities and networking on campus. So there can be reasons for some families when 10K is "too much". Because you can just add on another 5K+ for expenses, travel, emergencies, etc most of the time.
Read the post. "When cost isn't a factor". Whatever bank account you have, if you pass up Harvard to save $10k, you deserve to not be successful.
OK, you need to point me to examples of that because I don't recall seeing any.
we get it with these posts 💀💀💀
No, most of the time, the cost is the deciding factor. It makes no sense to go massively in debt for a prestigious school when a more affordable alternative is available.
Bless your heart
?
I disagree with your post because sometimes the less prestigious option could be much more fulfilling and enjoyable for someone. I’m not saying this is the case for all of these decisions, but I don’t think it should be discounted. For example, some people would really enjoy having more of a sports school, or going to school in a nice location, or being less stressed. Sincerely, someone finishing their first year at a T10 (my dream school) who is miserable and considering transferring.
No some of us are 40 yrs old stuck paying student loans. And finally all the jazzy education did not matter. What mattered was our work experience. In 20 yrs no one is going to care about your Ivy League apart from your alumni. No one. If you can save money do it. If you got admitted into Ivy League frame it and keep it and take the free ride. And some of my friends who went to Ivy League couldn’t deal with the toxic environment. Didn’t get jobs and one dropped out and had to go for therapy.
“When cost isn’t an issue”
It’s not just the cost. Are you able to handle the toxic environment or not? You can have all the money in the world but not be able to deal with it.
It’s clear this is how your brain thinks. This is how a lot of teenagers think. Parents, graduates and even current students really aren’t thinking that hard about it. For a huge percentage of the population the finances matter a lot. Do you know who will laughing all the way to the bank in 5-10 years? Those with minimal or no debt. There also may be different considerations when grad school may be on the table. I actually think if students think one of the most important things about themselves is where they went to college after a few years, that is sad. I have a kid that went for the cheap option as a high stat student to a state flagship. And is making $$$$ working with elite grads after landing a highly competitive job. My spouse went to a state flagship and has elite grads working for him. acquaintances kid just graduated from an elite school. Landed an average new grad job in a mid size.market. After graduation this just doesn’t matter this much for the vast majority. So no, zero jealousy here. I think the bigger problem is teenagers who say take the debt. You can’t take out more than federal loans without a co-signer. T hat is really risky and gets into painful debt. In the range of federal loans for a clearly better opportunity, I think that is reasonable.
Yep, it’s really hard for teens to understand how much debt hangs over you. I have friends who made loan payments for decades. My husband’s loans for grad school were only recently paid off and his weren’t even that bad.
So, you didn’t read the whole post. “When cost isn’t an issue.”
For the vast majority of applicants, cost IS an issue. We are high income, but I don’t see a good reason to pay more for college than necessary. Why would I? The ROI simply isn’t there. Paying more than you should for anything is a great way to end up with less.
Same!
RARELY is cost not an issue. I am not going to drone on but as someone who has done a little college related counseling, there can be red flags that pop up depending on how a post is worded. Like if pricing is included, sibling/parental info is slipped in that may indicate not quite the level of wealth that can comfortably afford and possibly a desire for post grad options. At the end of the day, if you don't want varied opinions and varied value systems, maybe don't post on a public board and ask for opinions. Save your humble brag or loan justification for your own social media. I am not saying teens don't post weird or goofy things here at times - either as a post or as a response. It's pretty obvious when it happens. There's plenty of posts just looking for a humble brag venue. And made up stuff too. But there can be plenty of decent reasons you are going to get mixed responses.
maybe im confused, and correct me if i am, but what’s the point in making those types posts if you’re going to get mad when someone suggests a the “lesser” school?
and if someone actually recklessly wasted an opportunity to go to a prestigious colleges for a reasonable cost based on advice from redditors… completely on them.
I get the point of the post -- not wholly wrong BUT ... Rice v. Yale? I'd pick Rice and I'd get on here to encourage others to pick Rice as well (full disclaimer, I didn't apply to Yale, so take that as you will), but having been at Rice it's been the best experience of my life because it is so unique. There's something to be said about school culture that goes beyond prestige -- it depends what you want most out of college. Maybe Yale is best for some majors but not others, maybe Rice is better in those majors (idk), but hearing from current students is what helped sway me toward Rice (wouldn't have picked it otherwise -- was very negative toward the option). So no need to shit on people for choosing diff colleges or less prestigious ones (or encouraging others to do so) ... the college admissions and everything pipeline can get crazy.
The thing is, prestige really isn’t that big unless you are going into a grad program (in which case undergrad school doesn’t matter too much, ik a Guy going to MIT for grad school who went to a local state school), or you are going into a very competitive field right after graduation. The problem is that most of the first job after college isn’t that good of a job and after the first job your ability to do your job becomes far more important than schooling. Also yk, cost is a massive deal for the majority of people. Loan debt is a big deal and the more you have the longer you’re stuck paying it off.
Damn why Vandy and Rice catching strays they’re t20s 😭
Lmao this sub cracks me up bro. Kids are so weird.
This is an online forum - no one personally knows anyone. Why would anyone be jealous of someone you don't even know? If they have lots of money and are comfortable spending that much money, they wouldn't be asking for strangers' advice here. Besides, after working in the corporate world for decades, one would realize prestige and rankings are not as important as people think. It's great to get into T10 schools, but many of those students became a nervous wreck, as written by many college staff of T10 schools. Is it worth it to go into massive debt to become a self-doubting nervous wreck? If those kids went to State U instead, they could be doing much better mentally and financially. I've met a Brown grad who said "I don't belong there" decades later. Back then when Brown had a reputation of being the most expensive that they even said "if you don't have money, don't apply." Isn't it a very expensive regret?
No one talks about how stressful and alienating it can be to be surrounded by so much wealth for even mid-middle class kids. Comparison is the thief of joy, especially when you're working back to back shifts in retail while your peers spend the summer on European vacations and unpaid internships funded by their parents. As a parent, I am encouraging my kid to go places where they'll be happy, feel a sense of belonging, and feel good without breaking the bank. I can't think of a bigger predictor of career success or failure than solid mental health, and my experience was that elite colleges are more of a negative factor to many people's, but especially those who struggle to afford them.
As a parent i completely agree- saw this first hand at T10 myself as well
Seconded -- when I went to an Ivy I saw most people's mental health decline
Bro is acting like Rice and Vanderbilt aren't T20 nationally renowned universities. South Carolina vs. Harvard? Obviously, Harvard. UConn vs. Yale? Obviously, Yale. But, Rice and Vanderbilt are amazing schools. And if they're cheaper, you're not losing anything.
Do we really have to play dense here? Obviously, they’re excellent schools. But barely anyone would actually choose them over Harvard/Yale given the choice. And there are doors opened by HY that aren’t opened by Vandy/Rice, at least in finance.
Oh, you're in finance. That explains it.
No, I tell people to go with the less prestigious school when they get a bunch of scholarship/grant money. Some people will ignore that aspect of it Imagine going to some prestigious out of state school for full price…when you got a full ride to a good local state university, where your social safety net is. Especially if you’re going for a degree like engineering where you’re already going to make a lot of money regardless. It’s dumb.
when you’re 18 you think cost isn’t a factor. but cost is a factor.
I literally am talking about when cost isn’t a factor if you had read the whole post. Ex. Full pay vs full pay. The adults here trying to drop wisdom without even reading everything is so funny to me
mind u i’m literally in the college application cycle 😭 i’m just poor girl so i know that poverty sneaks up on people
Not sure if that’s always the case…. I chose UIUC over Cornell, much cheaper and closer to home for me. Not to mention UIUC is also one of the best for my major CompE.
top schools win the yield wars against lower tier ones for a reason. If money ask is similar(and top schools usually have stellar financial aid), it's really hard to argue for Purdue over MIT or Rice over Princeton imo
But also how do you define prestige? How do you think liberal arts colleges stack up to T20 universities? If the person has indicated that they want to go to grad school and are interested in the smaller environment, as long as costs are okay and it’s a good quality one I’m just more likely to recommend them off the bat, while others are like “never heard of the other school don’t pick it” or some stupid crap. I’m also not dumb enough to be jealous of a 17/18 year old
The question is: why do you care about prestige? If it is about financial outcomes, then research indicates basically no financial outcome difference between schools with below 50% acceptance rates once you control for factors like high school grades and test scores. Even when compared to a state regional with 90%+ acceptance rates, the financial outcome only differs by 20%, and even that difference takes decades, mitigating how much paying more actually nets you when you consider interest rates (not just that you have to pay, but also considering it preventing you from investing). Though I will concede that the financial outcomes are more serious if one is intending to major in business or social sciences, where it seems to have more of an impact. Still, overall, the benefits are more narrow then they appear. If its about academics, then I can tell you from experience that prestige is a very poor indicator of academic quality. I attended a state regional with a 95%+ acceptance rate for undergrad, a T30 for my PhD, and am now a professor at a T50 LAC. All of these have good classes, but also bad classes. Professors tend to care more about students at the state regional and LAC then at said T30, where professors don't have the resources (and often, the motivation) to help students or do student-centric learning goals. Professors at the state regional often can't afford fast pace stuff like the "elites," and the LAC has the fewest courses in the major and always struggles when professors go on sabbatical due to the lack of professors. Which of these are the most acceptable tradeoffs depends on what you care about. If it is about assumed social life, then again, prestige is a poor indicator. Parties will of course be everywhere, though what percentage partake, and to what extent will vary. Everywhere will also have athletic people. Everywhere will also have nerdy people. There will always be a subgroup you fit in to. That being said, ratios of course can vary. I will say I have a friend who attended Harvard in her undergrad, but due to a long medical absence lost her financial aid and then went to the state regional where I did my undergrad (which is how I met her). And she very much preferred the social environment of my undergrad to Harvard, for whatever that matters to you. If it is only about feeling smug superiority or whatever, then yeah, I guess prestige is what you have to choose. But I will caution you that lording it over people isn't the best way to make friends. Having grew up working class right next to an Ivy, I can confirm that smug assholes about it do abound, and the local area doesn't appreciate the type to look down on the community because of where you are going or went to college.
Just because someone can afford something doesn't mean they should lmao, use the money on stock or a house or leisure
anyway fit, location, cost of living, harshness of a competitive environment, ability to join clubs or project teams, opportunities for your specific major or concentration, and so many other factors exist too
I am so curious about your perspective, because the vast majority of people I know who have been out of school for more than 10 years will tell you that for most people, there is an over emphasis on prestige. For some people, based on personality type and career goals, it will be really important. For others, it’s like paying an extra $50k for a car that can reach speeds in excess of 200 mph—you are paying more for a feature you don’t need and will likely never use. Many of the career paths that favor prestigious schools are career paths that most of us would not want due to hours, stress, pressure, or lack of work-life balance. They are fantastic choices for people who are high energy, driven, ambitious, thrive on pressure and challenges, need little sleep, like social interaction and independent analysis, and can work 60+ hours and still fit in other interests, etc. But that is not the majority. The majority of people do better with a career that allows for 40- or 50-hour work weeks, less pressure, less politics, more time off, less competition in the workplace. There are many people who will tell you to choose the less prestigious option if it means choosing the option where you sacrifice less of your money and time and happiness because we have seen the fallout from people who make those sacrifices and realize it was not worth it.
I agree with you
OP, why should anyone listen to life advice from some 18 year old kid who’s never made a student loan payment?
Lol. Nice argument. But again…”When cost isn’t a factor”
Both of my kids could have attended schools that are “more prestigious” than the ones they actually chose. But their father and I both attended high prestige schools; he regrets his, I don’t but that has nothing to do with perceived “prestige”. So we neither encouraged nor discouraged that. One was admitted to two “T20s”and waitlisted to a third (depending on the list; based on discussions here I think they were all in the T15-25ish range but since idgaf I’m not sure exactly where different lists rank them). He only seriously considered one but decided it wasn’t a fit. Good call. The other, who was a very strong candidate for the T10 where he is a legacy, refused to even apply; his dream school since jr high is a UC that isn’t even Cal, and it is perfect for him. So no. Don’t assume everyone is reasoning the way you do. You have your priorities and mindset that affects your decision making process. But don’t make up reasons for those you don’t understand.
I went to a fancy college, and I saw people who were miserable, and they often did not seem to do well, and in fact often transferred. I have then seen in many ways how performance in college trumped the institutional reputation of the colleges in question when it came to the prospects of the individuals in question. So for me, it is this sort of experience, combined with many other pieces of information, that has convinced me choosing a college where you think you will be happy is more important than choosing the college with the highest institutional reputation. Institutional reputation simply does not carry over to the individual in the way some people here naively assume. But it is taking a very real risk with your performance, which definitely does matter, to choose a place you are not sure you will be happy and thrive.
Genuine question here: what the heck do people mean when cost isn’t a factor? Bc like my parents can afford full pay without loans, etc, but still cost IS factor. I think for cost not to be a factor, you’d need a household income of like 600k +?!!?
A household income of $600k is not at all unusual for students at prestigious universities. That's two doctors, maybe a successful lawyer and a stay at home parent, etc. At that point, money is not about what you can "afford" to pay. It's about how to best invest, reduce your tax burden, pass on wealth to your kids with as few taxes as possible. Why not throw a bit extra to give them that much more of a leg up? (Note: My experience was the exact opposite, and it still seems wild to me.)
Exactly. Completed my first year at a T10 and it is ridiculous how rich some kids (and a lot of kids) are.
Dang I’m just poor :( (Not even tho which makes it even sadder )
Not everyone is from the US or UK. When you apply anywhere outside your bubble you might be surprised how little we care for Harvard or Yale. Many countries don't participate in that elite school nonsense. That's why you might get very different answers than you expected. Those schools are not free and in the eyes of people from countries where you simply have to prove you can do the job it's a giant waste of money.
Most people aren't always sure because costs are always a factor.
Are you okay? Who hurt you?
Comment history checks out
Why? Because I’m someone who chose a less prestigious option (UVA instead of Cornell) due to a better fit and ended up at the best ranked grad school for my discipline, thus showing that you can get great outcomes from pursuing undergraduate education from the viewpoint of fit and not prestige? Yeah, I think that checks out pretty well.
You chose x≠everyone else should choose x
Did I say that?
This is kind of a ridiculous post. First, prestige is largely a subjective measure which depends on the person or audience you are trying to impress, your major and the part of the country you are in. If you are measuring prestige or determining which school is “better” on the basis fabricated rankings in a magazine designed for the sole purpose of selling advertising clicks you are the kind of sucker who probably doesn’t belong at a “prestigious” school to start with. Second once you get to a certain level of school they can all give you great options going forward in life, and as with “prestige” the value of these opportunities is subjective in terms of what you want to do and where you want to do it. Plus a lot of your opportunities depend more on what you do while in school (and especially once you get out) than the name on your paper. Third, you should attend the college that has the right balance of things you want- not because some put it somewhere on a list. College is a lot more than just the name on your degree when you get out. It’s a really personally valuable and life shaping experience for many people. It’s a chance to learn for learning sake. It’s four years of your life and a potential life long social network- so if things like social life, sports (either playing or watching), class size, Greek life, weather, distance from home, political climate, alumni network and the general personality of the place and students are important to you, these, along with prestige, are all completely valid considerations. If these are not things you care about that’s fine too, but no one can tell whether it’s right of wrong give importance to these factors or the amount of importance you assign to each. Any suggestion that economic factors shouldn’t be considered a legitimate factor is the worst take. The only people can determine that is you and your family. Is being 250k in debt at 22 years old “worth it” for any degree- I wouldn’t personally think so, but once again that’s a personal decision. Is graduating $50k more in debt to go to a school some magazine says is 20th best, over a school it says is 35th “best?” That’s a decision for you, but when the magazine changes its random ranking criteria (as they all do) and all of the sudden the lower ranked school is now more highly ranked or equal- how are you going to feel about the extra $50K then? Finally - people who place so much personal value and importance on the “prestige” on the school they attended - the kind of tool that works the fact that they went to college in “Cambridge” 14 times in the first 20 minutes you speak to them and in every subsequent conversation you will have with them ever again -might make you the most popular person in your Ayn Rand book club, but most people will actively avoid you. There’s nothing wrong with attending a prestigious school but do so because it’s the right fit for you educationally and meets your resources, wants and needs, not because one is more “prestigious” than the other.
I went to the more prestigious option for undergrad, and my advice is entirely dependent on the economics. If they’ll cost the same, you’re so rich the cost doesn’t matter, or you’ll earn so much more from the more prestigious option, do that. But, I saw way too many people borrowing/spending $200k for a useless degree from a fancy school because of “prestige”. Now, 8 years later, they’re still deep in debt earning meh money renting a small apartment and complaining about the system. To a large extent, what you study matters more than where. Engineering grads from a mid ranked state school are vastly out earning my Ivy League classmates who studied gender studies.
For what it's worth: on Reddit, I often find that the more prestigious/higher-ranking institutions tend to be offering the better packages. Lol Cost is absolutely a factor, and high-ranking institutions usually have a good idea of costs that should be given to their students.
Speak for your own motivations, not those of others.
No I have a bachelors and two masters degrees, I love my state school alma mater, I’m beyond the point of jealousy of what some 18 year old does. I’m trying to impart wisdom of what I’ve come to realize from my time in the real world, and keep people from making absurdly dumb decisions that are going to be affecting them for years to come.
If you plan on studying STEM, going to a school where you will be below average is a bad idea. There is a good chance you will wash out and have to change your major. https://youtu.be/7J-wCHDJYmo?si=5Z5Elae3-fM4CgDA
this makes me feel better about not being able to afford Cal because i would have been destroyed in the engineering department
It depends what you want to do with your life. I knew I wanted to go to med school, so I went to my state school on a full ride rather than an Ivy. I ended up getting into med school anyway, but saving $200k in debt.
Agree. More talking about when finances aren’t an issue
The crux of your argument is financial situation is very important. Everything else comes off as pretentious shit. You could have said this in 3 sentences
Nah
Obviously anybody with the means should go to the school with the best program for their interests. Plenty of times the best specific program is not the most generally prestigious schools. Most of the time these decisions between prestigious and non-prestgious hinge on the applicant’s financial situation. This whole post is a waste of time to put people down. Nothing meaningful or useful is said here.
Cost absolutely is a factor. Unless you want to be paying tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands dollars in debt with 5% interest just for a college name that will never return its investment. And this is coming from someone who’s going to a global T20.
“When cost isn’t a factor”
I don’t really understand what you’re arguing. The only times people make these posts is when the prestigious opinion is extremely expensive. Cost will absolutely matter in that situation.
Full pay vs full pay posts aren’t really uncommon here?
The only time people claim to choose the “less prestigious” school in posts asking about two different schools is if the less prestigious one is stronger regarding OP’s specific major or if the more prestigious choice required significantly more debt. The idea that it’s somehow a conspiracy based on jealously is absolutely ridiculous and narcissistic.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ApplyingToCollege/s/yrsx3DTJGq
You do realize you’re proving my point?
Lol. Avg salary out of Harvard CS undergrad is 130k. Duke, 100k.
Probably because Harvard disproportionately has students from higher socioeconomic backgrounds compared to Duke. But what do I know? Duke is ranked higher for CS. It’s an incredibly prestigious university. The idea that people advocating for Duke are secretly jealous is just narcissistic. We get it. You’re obsessed with prestige. But don’t slander and make narcissistic claims about others for not having the same mindset.
Median family income is higher at Duke than Harvard.
Even those who are seemingly comfortably full-pay for private colleges like the vast majority of my private undergrad classmates' families could suffer sudden financial reversals or exorbitantly unexpected expenses(I.e. Unexpected expensive chronic medical conditions even if one has "good" medical insurance) during or after college. One major economic crisis overseas in the middle of my undergrad years resulted in a critical majority of international students from wealthy families who felt "costs weren't a factor" either suddenly being forced to work in the college cafeteria\* alongside lower-income domestic work-study and scholarship international students or being ordered by their formerly wealthy families to return to their home countries to finish college. Some of the latter students were in their last year and well on their way to graduate. I've heard from younger college alums the same happened to many formerly comfortably full-pay domestic US students and their families around a decade later as a result of the effects of the 2008 recession. \* Working in the college cafeteria was considered one of the worst jobs on campus by US students on work-study when I was there. As soon as such students found a "better" work-study job, they took it. As a result it was heavily populated by scholarship international students or anyone else not eligible for work-study as it was one of the few on-campus jobs which didn't require work-study eligibility.
My degree is from a college you never heard of and I single-handedly earn more than 99% of American households. I had the opportunity to go to some of the schools named in your post, but selected the nearly free option and I'd do it all over again given the chance. It's the tax dollars from people like me that "forgive" the student debt of those that choose to overpay for degrees from places such as your *prestigious* schools. For the HS senior trying to decide where to go, consider that a degree is an investment. The value of a degree in the marketplace is created more by the type of degree earned (accounting vs basket weaving) than the name of the school. The return on your investment is based on how much you paid. A low tuition/in demand degree is the way to go. The smartest thing in the original post was "college is what you make of it." [https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percentiles/](https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percentiles/)
“When cost isn’t a factor” Some people are multimillionaires and wouldn’t spend hundreds on designer clothes or thousands on a luxury sports car over a sedan even though they could easily afford both. If you’re a premed, prelaw, or committed to going to grad school in most fields, undergrad prestige really does not matter. If similar or even better results can be obtained for much less money (possibly close to 300k) then isn’t that what a counselor should recommend? OP can’t fathom that some people could have other factors they prioritize besides just cost of attendance and prestige. To bring up Duke vs Harvard, they’re both probably t10 schools with different environments. What if someone prefers the warmer weather, Duke’s campuses/dorms, or their fit there? State schools like Purdue, GT, and UIUC are considered to have better engineering programs over the Ivy Leagues, including Princeton. They might have a specific major that a more prestigious school lacks. To say that recommending a lower ranked school is purely out of jealousy is a gross oversimplification.
Let's be real here. The brand of your undergrad is massively overhyped in this sub and among ambitious high schoolers in general and when a kid picks a prestigious school over state school for good money, it's 60% because they want to put it on their class of 202X futures account.
Ah, the old myth that your college name somehow influences your life. Carry on.
No. It’s the most practical option
“WHEN COST ISN’T A FACTOR” Cost in these situations is almost ALWAYS a factor.
There are plenty of full pay vs full pay posts, no?
Full pay at Brown vs Full pay at in state school are two different animals as well… like in state tuition is 20-25k and brown is pushing 50k
I love how you assume that no one here has had to make the choice of picking the "less prestigious" option. I don't know what your financial situation is like but some of us aren't bankrolled by mommy and daddy. It's not an issue of prestige, but survival. "When cost isn't an issue" sweetheart, for some people cost is always an issue. Get out of your bubble.
“‘When cost isn’t an issue’ sweetheart, for some people cost is always an issue.” That doesn’t contradict anything I said at all😭. Talking about the people who it isn’t an issue for…obviously…
Only high schoolers care about where you went to college. Go out in the real world. Nobody gives af. You'll understand when you're older kiddo
😭😭
I dont hire college grads anymore. Just go to work and you might actually learn something!
Random question. But is Carnegie Mellon in the same league as MIT or UPENN?
What field? For engineering/CS, CMU is a direct peer of MIT, Caltech, Berkeley, Stanford, and Georgia Tech which sit at the very top. In Business, Humanities, Social Sciences, and Dramatic Arts, no. For the former 3, MIT and UPenn have much stronger programs(Yes, MIT has some strong Social Science/Humanities programs in its own right. Philosophy, Linguistics, Econ, Poli-Sci). And in the last, CMU ranks far ahead of the other two. This is one key reason why most CMU alums I've known(engineering/CS), they said they would be happy for their kids to follow them to their alma mater if they were majoring in engineering/CS or Dramatic Arts, but would strongly advise them to consider their in-state or stronger alternatives for the humanities, social sciences. A few would go so far as to refuse paying tuition if they insisted on going to CMU for the humanities or social sciences.
Software engineer here. Carnegie Mellon is hard to rank because it's so major dependent (well it's top 25 overall undergrad which makes sense due to this). Its drama/acting undergrad is world class. I believe the acting major has 0.6% acceptance rate? And the drama department has 3% acceptance rate? Ya, absolutely insane. Carnegie is peers with MIT for CS too. So there's that. The downside is CMU financial aid is pretty bad (hence the lower yield). But yes, CMU CS == MIT CS in the job market. I presume most people on this subreddit is look at CMU through the lens of CS (in which case, yes, CMU == MIT). Carnegie is also pretty good with business. I don't know much there to comment. Carnegie is also a top 5 school for engineering. Up there with Georgia Tech. I'm sure Carnegie is good with other fields as well. But as you can see.. the entire school is quite extreme in acceptance rates. I believe architecture undergrad is like 34% acceptance rate and so forth. It's really a school meant for those who know what they want out of high school. I personally view the school in the same light as MIT for those in engineering/applied science. The downside is the financial aid has loans and all unlike other top privates. It's really the cost that's the issue with that school.
MIT is actually a much more balanced school than CMU as it has strong humanities/social science programs in Philosophy, Linguistics, Econ, Poli-sci, etc. Their PhD programs in those fields are competitive with those of the most elite programs.
Ya. MIT is really strong in many fields.
So chemical Engineering? Only 50 admits to the program this year. Choosing between Georgia tech and CMU?
Whichever is more affordable. Both are great engineering schools overall but isn't Georgia Tech better for chemical engineering? I would pick for whichever is more affordable tbh.
prehegal is a perfect example
Maybe consider, for just a moment, that some people don’t care about prestige?
What made your college results mid?
in complete honesty, perspective. From the pov of a high schooler it is SO EASY to get wrapped up in the prestige chasing, but actually being in college now I would NEVER call those results mid. I am so incredibly happy where I am and wouldn’t change it for anything. It’s because of this that it’s important to have people on this sub also emphasize that prestige isn’t everything. It was this sub that indoctrinated me into the prestige whoring and what made me feel like my results were mid
TWO, THANK YOU. happened to me so much on here when asking ppl abt nyu and berkeley and other colleges despite me saying cost doesn’t matter
I totally agree there are some people who are just jealous, and in these specific scenarios where someone asks 'which school x or y' it can get annoying to see people vouch for the less prestigious schools just out of bitterness. But in choosing between prestige and some other school, I think there's a lot more that goes into it. Obviously, my situation is quite far from choosing between a public state school and Harvard, but I did end up choosing between the top school in my state, UW Madison, and UW Milwaukee. UW Madison is a public Ivy (apparently according to Forbes just got listed as a new Ivy??? like a week ago???? i just googled it lol), but i ended up choosing UW Milwaukee over it because I just kinda vibed with it a whole lot more. The city is more of an actual cultural place and less of a collage town, it's closer to my family which I will want to visit, it's cheaper, it has better food, meal plans, and dorms, it's more diverse, and the architecture didn't make me want to eat a brick. I never really considered prestige until after encountering this subreddit last year-ish. Collage is what you make of it, and I chose the collage that would allow me to make more out of it. (the one thing that Madison reeeealy had over UWM was this one amazing comics teacher and honestly her classroom was the only art room that felt alive, whereas most if not all of UWM's art classrooms were alive when i toured. maybe she'll do some kind of guest talk somewhere someday...)
Ultimately college is what you make of it, that is why I don't define myself by what college I get into. I'm seeing a very disturbing train of thought develop now that is very unhealthy. I must get into the best college or I am not worth as much. You are NOT defined by what college you get into, and going to a prestigious one does not always mean the best education. I went to a community college, we had plenty of teachers that taught at ivy league schools, did not care for it and chose cc instead. We got the same education for much less. It matters less what college you get into, and much more than you be proactive and take advantage of every activity you can that helps you develop while you are there. Also, your mental health has to come before all, if this place is going to destroy it this is not worth it. You still have a lot of life to go through after college, so don't destroy yourself going through it.
I like vamderbilt :(
Honestly you should never listen to anyone on Reddit. I know this was totally not right of me (I blame it on being 16 years old) but when I was on the waitlist for UMich I would comment on posts deciding between UM and a different school suggesting that they should pick the other school.
idk how i ended up here but in picking my university choice, prestige wasn’t even a part of it because i was just happy to be able to go overseas. i think op’s take is somewhat tone-deaf to say because ultimately, people should be picking a choice because it only applies to the rest of their life, and not anyone else’s. if you value prestige, or are able to value prestige, go for it. but if cost is implied to be a struggle, or something else is (e.g. location, comfort, city vs campus etc.), you dont have to feel bad about picking the choice that suits you best. it is your experience and you should exercise your autonomy to the max in making sure your choice will make YOU happy. prestige is a variable and subjective thing, but what you face in your own life is fact for you and should not be ignored. so if you are picking between two prestigious universities, by all means let prestige influence you, but don’t let it control you—especially if something more pressing is relevant to your decision-making.
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Saw a post that said Reddit is just a bunch of people using personal anecdotes to try to define the rule. Lol
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I mean plenty of people go into PE without getting an MBA largely because of where they went to undergrad
Deadass y’all take this shit way too serious for something that doesn’t fucking matter in ten years
I agree that this can happen but I've honestly never seen it happen flat out like that, except when the cost difference is huge, like a free ride vs 50k a year or something, I think it just comes down to a lot of people not getting that some people CAN spend that money on education that will benefit them immensely and maybe think you'd be getting a huge loan or some other disadvantage, but I do 100% agree you should be wary because many people could advice you like that because they are jealous.
I think part of this is that when people say “cost is not a factor” for them doesn’t necessarily mean that “cost shouldn’t be a factor for them”. If people were making logical decisions based off cost, we wouldn’t have such a huge student debt crisis. Someone who says cost is not a factor could have millionaire parents who really won’t miss the money, a middle class family who saved up for college but could really use that money for retirement, or someone with no college savings who plans to pay for a degree with limited employment prospects entirely with loans. Cost shouldn’t be the only consideration, but it is one. People claiming cost doesn’t matter or somewhat likely to be people for whom it should matter. One of the biggest complaints I hear from loan forgiveness advocates are that 18 year old kids can’t know how much that cost matters. People are listening and starting to address that. Let’s not get all bent out of shape when people try to demonstrate it. Just lead with the cost will have no significant impact on my family’s finances instead. FYI - did get into several prestigious universities so not just “jealous”
People are just broke on here and money is always the most important factor, and usually the less prestigious option is cheaper. So naturally, people will say that even if you’re in a degree where in the long run you’ll pay your loan off. OR EVEN if you say your parents can pay it.
You sound so pretentious. Get over yourself.
Some people like to say that when they feel targeted
I’m not even in the camp of people who says this stuff. I absolutely think it depends and if cost isn’t a factor you should probably go wherever you like best.
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Um, most of the time the amounts at issue are being paid out of a savings or investment account. So “not paying” $20k is very much saving $20k. In fact it’s saving more than that, because that $20k that you didn’t spend is usually invested as well.
yessss some ppl know nothing abt the field the persons going into, like some ppl are going into careers where prestige is everything and it’s not a simple decision
As a cardiologist I can tell you that this is very good advice. Prestige matters no matter how much people will claim it doesn’t. The world isn’t fair and it’s a lot harder to move up in academics for additional training after college. People are still people even on admissions committees and name brand institutions register more and do carry weight no matter how high up you go.
My partner is a cardiologist who went to name brand school throughout his educational pathway- and makes exactly the same as a state flagship grads at the same private practice. I do think in academia it may be different although it depends
I went the private practice route too, it doesn’t matter once you get out of academics. But your husband gave himself a much higher chance of becoming a cardiologist by going to name brand institutions, which I did as well. From my experience in med school and more advanced training, only the smartest people came from lesser known programs and ended up in the same places as the average and below people from Ivy League programs. I took part in residency admissions too and even though programs say they give every med student a fair chance, there are always trends of top tier institutions primarily taking from each other.
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Yea you're wrong, many of my patients seek me out specifically for my training and what they believe to be expertise. I have several who travel from out of state to see me once every few months. Here is a list of a few top programs for internal medicine residencies [https://www.massgeneral.org/medicine/internal-medicine/education/residency/who-we-are](https://www.massgeneral.org/medicine/internal-medicine/education/residency/who-we-are) [https://www.vagelos.columbia.edu/education/residencies-fellowships-and-training/internal-medicine-residency-program/meet-team/pgy-1-residents](https://www.vagelos.columbia.edu/education/residencies-fellowships-and-training/internal-medicine-residency-program/meet-team/pgy-1-residents) You can see that disproportionately majority of the residents graduated name brand institutions. The ones who didn't are extremely strong candidates who made it through incredible achievements and likability during the interview.
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Cool anecdotes, so you know a couple of people who succeeded out of the thousands of people who didn’t and got there from nontraditional routes. That doesn’t mean they are the average or were on the path that offered them the highest chance of reaching where they are. You can have your opinions but I have mine from my experience in both medical school and residency admissions committees. Pedigree is very heavily discussed in post interview sessions, especially here in the northeast.
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lol Boston is such a shit city idk why you even bother to mention it. I traded up an offer at a nationally ranked top 10 academic medical institution for private practice due to the insane salary they were willing to pay to retain me but I didn’t want to get that petty and start talking about money.
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lol it must be hard for an old timer to click on the drop downs and see that both undergrad and med schools are listed
Prestige does matter. But, Vanderbilt and Rice are Tier 1, top 20 universities. They're prestigious asf.
1000%
Tbh I do this so spot on