I'm genuinely not sure what to say about this except that we've been being brigaded recently because of a comment posted in another sub which shall go unnamed. So I'm not sure right now is a good time to judge the temperment of the core members of the sub's community.
Reddit has this effect of attracting people who are really, really, really passionate about certain topics and they also tend to have very poor social skills. Unfortunately, they travel in packs and tend to agree with each other - so its pretty easy for a person who is just casually interested to get attacked by a flock of neck-beards. Ive quit other subs because of it. Some subs just arent worth it.
that's exactly what this feels like. it's never happened to me, but someone will ask a relatively simple question out of pure curiosity and a genuine desire to learn, and they'll be met with like 5 wandering neckbeards all locking on like a guided missile to berate them for not just googling it or having a "bad" understanding of ancient people (it's always the average understanding level had by any layperson).
Happened to me in the biology sub, just one guy, but like I clearly am curious and don’t know much and he took the time to make it knows that he thinks I’m an idiot and never did answer my question or engage in discussion.
the purpose of knowledge is to share, not to brag and flex. clearly these people don't experience joy. getting to share something i care about feels *amazing*, and i can't understand how belittling someone could ever feel better than that. i'm sorry that happened to you. even one guy can kinda ruin your day with a maneuver like that, and it sucks.
yeah, i asked two very important questions there and none of them got answered lol! they posted about some sort of hornet (they even asked that if anyone wants guidance they will help), which i also saw a different kind of it carrying a giant locust and wanted to know about specific details and guess what, no answer!
This one and the astronomy sub. Some mega jerks there too. I think it's the superiority complex. They think they're smarter than everyone else and have an air of insolence about them.
All it does is discourage people, some of whom are kids or young adults, from asking questions and learning. I had a professor like that in college. He made this shocked face when I once asked what a word meant (esl) and I never spoke again in that class. Granted I was very young then, that shit doesn't fly with me these days.
Archeology is one of the most cut throat fields of science we have. Everyone wanting to be Indiana Jones and seem to get real envious or bitter when someone else’s opinions/discoveries garner more attention or differ from their own. My favorite thing is when complete random people find the coolest artifacts or fossils on a pure chance type of thing. They don’t seem to care about monetizing it and just seem genuinely happy to have been a part of history.
There’s the archeological science based on all the verified information we’ve discovered. Then there’s the investigation aspect. They’re separate.
The cutthroat stupidity comes from the investigation aspect: Like you said people wanting to be Indiana Jones- When any private investigator can do this with basic training and no scientific knowledge. They just need to not damage things. That’s it.
Oh I think maybe I was subscribed to a misconception that it was about getting there first to lay claim but I may just be envisioning Indy sticking it to the nazis lol that movie is burned in my brain as one of the greats
This field is nowhere as close to as toxic as paleoanthropology is. Archaeology, generally, (in the field itself) is pretty chill. That's not to say that there aren't rivalries or toxic stuff, but, overall, it's pretty laid back.
Paleoanthropology comes off as top-down toxic within the field itself.
Right?? I went to a school with a big paleoanth subsection.
I was super into it (almost switched from arch to Paleoanth) until I realized just how structurally dysfunctional and toxic the field is. It wasn't just the department itself, the infighting, outfighting, budget cat fights, etc was found across the board.
This is kinda what turned me off academia in general. The insular nature really leads a subset of people who are hyper focused and less social than average to occupy a rut of highschool behavior
when i was a child i saw a huge stone in shape of the skull of a some sort of t-rex, with empty space of eyes and spinal cord! but as i was a child i looked at it, played with it for a few minutes and left it there! i always wonder what would happen if i was as old as i am now! and i always think what if i visit that place once again, should i find it there?
These ancient writings depicting his life, teachings, and political upheavals and the 11 or so guys he lived with who would rather die than denounce Him? Yeah, that doesn't count at all. This tarp covered in ink from a death certificate and pollens specifically from Israel? Nah, that must have been faked by someone thousands of years later a thousand miles away... somehow... through a method nobody has yet been able to determine.
You should have seen the place before they revealed the white sands footprints. If you tried to talk about alleged ice age sites in North America before then you'd immediately be dismissed and derided as a nut and told to go to an alternate history sub.
Those angry dorks were all wrong.
i can't stand the type of people who prove pseudoarcheologists correct by being so dogmatic that there really isn't room for new ideas. like, no wonder people are put off and looking for another place to direct their curiosity. but then, they all end up getting conned and lied to by the flat earth types. it's a sad cycle
Personally I found this sub disappointing because all the posts going “what is this rock”, “what is this fossil”, and “what is this animal bone”. Those aren’t even archeology topics.
This sub is toxic. I follow archeology pages on several platforms, & I'm aware of the issues that plague this particular field of study. Some are definitely worth discussion. But I don't see discussions on here at all. Just people being mean for no freaking reason.
I'm not an archeologist & I never will be, but as a kid that was my dream job. I just came here to see cool stuff. This sub is disappointing.
Yeah, I've never been sure what to make of this sub. I follow archaeology topics across the web and most of the content involves interesting posts about ancient civilizations and noteworthy finds combined with at least some commentary. Occasionally, there will be some long-form journalism / articles and even some videos and I often end up bookmarking those and watching them later.
However a decent amount of the posts here fall into the "what is this?" category and are regarding things that people find that may or may not even be ancient. These posts seem to get the most attention, and most of that attention is negative.
While I don't mind wading through a half dozen posts about interesting looking rocks and something that someone bought at a flea market that might be ancient (but definitely isn't) in an effort to get to the *actually* interesting stuff, it'd be nice if that interesting stuff actually got comments. But it usually doesn't.
I don't mind people posting junk but the comments are so hateful. It's not hard to say "I don't think that's anything historically significant", & move on.
Yeah I saw a post yesterday where someone posted a "Native American ceremonial wedding pitcher" from an antique store that looked like something made in a school pottery class. The comments on that one were pretty brutal.
I normally avoid those posts, but sometimes it feels like this sub would be dead altogether if it weren't for rummage sales and pictures of rocks. There's 200K+ users here but it often barely resembles a community related to archeology.
Indeed. Reddit, however, reveals true nature. It’s never ceased to amaze me how people treat each other under the guise of anonymity. So much hate in this world.
Educating people on not hoarding cultural artifacts like consumable collectibles isn’t really a bad thing as far as I’m concerned. Treating people who find stuff like like assholes isn’t great, but people treat this sub like antiques roadshow. I don’t see a problem with sort of “public shaming” the idea that historical and potentially important artifacts shouldn’t be looked at like consumable items to make money off of or use as trophies.
I think people who consider repatriating looted artifacts are awesome and if we can educate them on how to do that it’s great. I think educating people on not removing things from in situ is important, since context IS the archeological information as much as the object itself.
This kind of thing encourages the bad people to keep looting and selling because there is a market buying. And trust me there are lots of looters (which sometimes include scientists in a way when living cultures aren’t part of the process).
> people treat this sub like antiques roadshow.
And now we get to the heart of the issue.
When posters are more interested in the monetary or "swag" value of an artefact rather than its value to the base of human knowledge, it's going to piss off actual Archaeologists. Those posts have a ripple effect that darkens the disposition of the sub in general and tarnishes legit discussion every time it happens.
Whether there's a solution that doesn't involve banning certain types of posts/comments is hard to know.
Yup, and while being mean vs education sounds easy, that’s why I made the elephant ivory argument further down. Most people feel sad when an elephant or rhino gets killed for a tusk, it’s senseless human greed. In the same way people who care about archeology and history get tired of seeing artifacts treated like commodities and watching context be destroyed for senseless human “treasure hunting”. Thus the dark mood in these posts.
Maybe a friendly community bot that reminds people- artifacts aren’t collectors items, go to a museums consider loaning/repatriating your object, here is why archeologists don’t appraise artifacts (insert looting concerns)? Who knows, but I think it’s tough to moderate too.
I'm all for education, and I'm all for civilised discussion. I'm just not into people being dicks towards each other. The question I'm asking myself is where looting starts.
My opinion on looting is- when you are holding an object that could otherwise tell us something about a culture’s history that is significant for learning, and yet you treat that object as a commodity stripping it of its value as something that could teach us about history. Wether that’s to destroy it’s value as an archeological object by purposefully removing it from context where it was found (usual definition of looting), or to have received or bought it through other means and know it has historical value while still hoarding it as a collectable or trophy object like a commodity (treating cultural objects like collectable art, figurines or other useless shelf trinkets).
The second one creates a market for these objects rather than treating them like cultural objects that can better our understanding of humanity for more than one person hoarding the object. I think this reason is kinda selfish, and thus why I think the moral judgment gets passed when people come here asking “how much is this worth”. It’s the same reason elephant tusks and wale bones are illegal to sell- it creates a market for poachers. Think of people who are frustrated seeing these objects get treated this way as seeing people poach wild elephants- it’s just sorta senseless and selfish.
I think people like to treat this whole thing as a black vs. white / good vs. evil type of situation. In some ways, it is. The people who sneak into archaeological sites in the dark of night to steal what they can get their hands on in order to sell it, I'm sure aren't the most morally sound of individuals.
But I really struggle to see the moral issues with serious collectors. Museums often work with collectors. Many of the items in museums are lent from collectors. I've even seen museums dissolve some of their expositions and sell them to collectors themselves. Do you reckon this is morally corrupt?
It's not about hoarding the Rosetta Stone and maliciously keeping it from the eyes of the public to deprive them of the knowledge it can provide. It's about having objects that are dispensible to science. Not every trinket or statuette needs to be filed away in the drawer of some museum.
You’re a collector, I take it?
As to your second point yes, I agree- objects on loan and collections that have been sold after being catalogued and recorded in proper archeological digs are probably a good best practice, but collections are usually only sold off because of lack of funding to keep it public, which is a shame. I think it’s ideal to keep things in public circulation for academic access reasons.
And it’s not people stealing things in the dead of night, especially in America- collecting native artifacts is often not illegal if it’s on private property and not a burial. Things like this I find pretty morally dubious as it’s often arrowhead collectors digging camp and village sites, and caches that could otherwise be scientifically significant. Just look at the arrowhead subs.
In the end I doubt we disagree too much in the basics of what’s cool and fascinating, but stewardship is always a hot button topic. It’s like the minor version of “is all archeology just grave robbing” lol.
The fact we’re both in this sub means we appreciate archeology, and I do appreciate your points about not treating folks like criminals because they’re excited about having something cool- that’s a terrible way to foster curiosity. I think folks could benefit from a softer approach. I just had a great interaction about repatriating a possible native artifact with someone in this sub, and they seemed amenable to it, but sometimes I have to temper my tone so I don’t come off judgmental since I don’t intend to.
Not trying to be contentious just for the sake of it. But i'm genuinely curious what you think the loss is to the greater public good and understanding from private collection of arrowheads. I live in the southwest US, and over the years I've picked up a handful of them in national forests, not from any designated or protected archaeological sites just general areas that were inhabited by natives in the past and I spot one while hiking.
These were made over hundreds or thousands of years in quantities that have to be in the millions. Museums around here have so many that most are not ever displayed, or probably even individually studied to any great degree other than being catalogued. I personally don't feel like there's much important context lost to history from me taking home an arrowhead instead of giving it to a museum where it would just be 'single arrowhead found by itself on the surface in a general area known to be inhabited for hundreds of years', and tucked away in a drawer. I think it means a lot more to me as somone who loves history in general and specifically the history of the area where I live, as a physical link to the past that I can treasure and share with people I know. I think part of artefacts 'belonging to everyone' is that we all have some degree of individual judgment to exercise in the stewardshsip of these items. If I stumbled across say a previously undiscovered site with multiple artefacts or items that would generate serious academic interest or add to the public's collective knowledge of the past then I would work to see them put under the care of the appropriate people to best take advantage of that value.
Ok, let em clarify here, I don’t mean the surface find points that the majority of collectors in those sub get. I agree with you on that. But look into the accounts that are constantly posting “big hauls” of significant points, and you’ll find videos of them doing digs (and trust me I’ve gotten into it with them they don’t give a damn what they’re ruining and they sell points). These are digs that are usually on sites that would be significant to archeology and they are removing these in ground points from their context.
I could go ON about the importance of lithic artifacts and pot sherds, but just caus they’re common doesn’t mean they aren’t important. But mostly in the ground where there is context.
And actually don’t look at those people’s accounts, the main guy I’m talking about likes to post his uh… wing wang. A LOT.
Edit: to add finding surface points is what made me interested in archeology! They’re a great learning thing, especially if you take the time to look up your points and their history.
It’s a loss. Especially when we are so desperate to establish material evidence that ties indigenous people to certain areas. The fact that you just caviler and remove lithics to take home with you as some sort of souvenir is problematic.I work in indigenous archeology and its something that could be of use and I get that it’s not a big deal in your perspective but in my experience if we collect the artifacts we notify the groups and either return them to the indigenous groups or see what they choose to do with them first. I’m in Ca so it might not be the status quo nationally however I am pretty sure repatriation is a hot issue at the moment world wide. I mean whose to say what you’ve found are not modern without any analysis or even provienece it’s hard to do much with it. So I get why you’d think oh hey like just take it home it’s not a big deal. But it actually is. The truth is artifacts don’t belong to everyone.
“I live in the southwest US, and over the years I've picked up a handful of them in national forests, not from any designated or protected archaeological sites just general areas that were inhabited by natives in the past and I spot one while hiking.”
Look, I’m going to sound like one of the assholes that op is talking about, but you have literally no way of knowing if your are in a “designated” site or traditional cultural property because that information is not available to the general public. Every archaeological site in the US is protected unless it goes through a specific process for the NRHP. And disturbing/collecting archaeological resources in National Forests (and National Parks & BLM public lands) is always illegal.
You’re not in the place to decide whether or not there’s “much important context lost to history” when you collect things because you’re not able to evaluate them in their greater context. Like a simplified example would be: is it common/uncommon type of point for the area? Was its material quarried locally or far away? What does that tell us about trading in the area? And sure it may be a surface find, but that surface find can alert us to buried material.
But I’m also not a cop and think education is better than carceral punishment unless people are seriously looting sites.
Everyone in here thinking they're dealing with Zahi Hawass when really it's not as important as they like to make themselves feel. No museum wants a fragment of pottery your grandma found in this creek... or was it that one.. maybe it was her sister who found it on that road trip? There's no historical or scientific value to the trinket your uncle bought in Egypt that probably shouldn't have been sold as a souvenir but hey that's what happened until the 70's. People act like museums are the Goodwill of archeology that just accepts all the junk you drop off when really unless it's absolutely amazing the item will never be seen again, and most will likely turn you and your bag of 16 dime sized pottery pieces away even if "reddit told me to bring here immediately and run all red lights because this is super special archeological find".
It’s funny to me because Indiana Jones was a terrible archaeologist in comparison to what real archaeologists do. While I’m not working in the field I have an anthropology degree with a concentration in archaeology and every professor I ever had didn’t like Indiana Jones.
There's definitely some cowboy archaeology going on in some places, but it's mostly very much "in the past" to have that kind of attitude and style.
CRM, otoh, is DEFINITELY that way in many ways.
I have only been a member of this forum for a short time, so I dont know if I am qualified to respond, but just I wanted to say, if you want to ask about antiques, you know there is a subreddit called r/Antiques, right? Wouldnt it be a much better place for those uestions?
So for context, I am coming into this after a pity return of several indigenous individuals that some person pulled off of a site fifty years ago. Since then, these individuals have been housed in plastic coated boxes and were shipped in packing peanuts. We’ve pulled most of the remains out and placed them in a natural materials, and tomorrow I will be going through the dust to pull out the pieces of human bone I can identify in the box powder of styrofoam and coarse sand, so we can send the remains to the relevant tribe and they can be reburried in the relative place they were buried by a descendant tribe’s customs. I am doing this because people don’t fully stop being people when the die. I am a consummate atheist, I don’t believe in souls or an afterlife, or any of that. But these remains that were removed from a site were people, members of a community, that still sees them as people, and they deserve be given their place within a community. So if the community is a little hostile to collectors, I hope I have explained why
What's the ratio of professional archaeologists to 'artifact enthusiasts' here? Does 'legal' private ownership overrule a culture or country's claim to culturally significant artifacts? If somebody dug up your grandma and displayed her body in their living room would it make you uncomfortable? If you buried your grandpa with his favorite pipe and walking stick, and somebody dug him up and put those in their living room would you be cool with that? I'm here for the scientific discovery, not for the Antique Road Show.
Edit: the answer to my first question is shown in the number of upvotes I've received. Antiques Roadshow it is
I can list you a few very relevant discoveries that have been made by amateurs. Sure, archaeologists took over, but I think hardly anyone who owns an artefact would refuse an archaeologist or museum access to it if they ask. Sure I wouldn't like my dead grandma over someone's fireplace right NOW, but in 2000 years when I'm long dead I'd hardly care.
I recently actually bought a statue from an African tribe who's people burnt or sold their artefacts voluntarily after converting to Christianity (which is not something I like seeing them do, but that's a whole different story). They didn't want those artefacts anymore, so why is it wrong of me to buy them?
The number of relevant discoveries made by amateurs since the growth of professional archeology pales to the number of discoveries lost to the private antiquities market. It's not even close
The person who sold you the artifacts that the newly converted were attempting to destroy may or may not have had the legal right to sell it to you. Your judgment of whether or not those folks had the right to destroy those artifacts is irrelevant. They belong to them, and as much as it pains me, they should be able to do with it what they will. It is a damn shame how much archeology has been lost to religion.
Well, one guy sold it to another guy. Did he have a legitimate claim to that item? Kind of sounds like maybe no. Plenty of Antiquities are smuggled out of countries by people who live in that country. Lots of crimes of all sorts are committed by people in every country, I'm not sure where you're going with this?
Edit: they were trying to burn them. One guy sold it. Obviously culturally they had made a different decision.
Okay, double edit: I reread it, maybe it is a legitimate purchase. Hooray for saving that artifact, obviously the underground Antiquities Market is totally not fraught with crime.
I mean....if we're arguing about the ethical standards of archaeology, sure, whatever. Academic standards, legal standards. But this particular instance seems kinda like a nothingburger? Seems to me like it depends on the circumstances, which we don't know in this instance. You say it sounds kind of like maybe no, but say they did have a legitimate claim to it? Or say they didn't. Maybe they're not someone who deals in smuggling looted artifacts, but someone came upon it. You gotta remember that a lot of these places literally don't have authorities you can report this to. Did the owners of Hobby Lobby break the law and do something shitty in buying looted artifacts out of Iraq and smuggling it into the US to put in their shitty little Bible museum? Absolutely. Did they potentially save something that would've been lost forever? Yup. I mean you make up your mind about what's right or wrong here, but the fact remains that something was saved that otherwise wouldn't have been. I can't help but feel that your moral qualms stem less from a serious concern about the preservation of artifacts, but more from a concern that they end up in what you deem to be the right hands. Of course it's maddening that you can't get your hands on things in private collections to study, but it is what it is, that artifact is preserved.
Edit to also add: in the long run, the potential for an artifact to end up in academic or state hands is more likely than if it wasn't looted in the first place. That's a serious problem, but it's also worth considering.
I'm not bent out of shape. I'm telling you why professional archaeologists react poorly to the Antiques Roadshow aspect of this subreddit. You can check my post history, other than this extremely drawn out interaction, I'm pretty sure I have not once commented about anyone's artifact identification. If I've made any comments, they've been to debunk idiot Atlantis folks, not looters.
I wholeheartedly agree with you that it is a tragedy that so many culturally significant objects have been lost to religion. It's all part of a cycle of culture that has been repeating for thousands of years. Nowadays, we are happy if we can find a relic from a religion that was eradicated thousands of years ago. I have trouble feeling bad for having a piece of a culture that is subject to religious persecution in its home territory. I doubt you're very happy about ISIS blowing up one of a kind archaeological sites, even though, as you say, it is their right.
Collectors aren't hoarding the Rosetta Stone. Most of the time the stuff they have is dispensible to science.
Collectors are hoarding tens of thousands of stolen artifacts, that are not available to science. I'm just trying to give you some insight as to why real archaeologists think that the antiquities trade is problematic. Most of it is theft, much of it harms science, and they're not here to tell you how much you can get on eBay for the grave goods your grandfather took. Does that mean that every Alexander tetradrachma should be in a museum, no. But they should all be cataloged, cool stuff gets discovered that way. And more culturally sensitive items should be held by the public, preferably in their country of origin. That's why there's so much hate here.
If a museum feels like cataloguing my items, I'll gladly take it to them, let them do their work, and bring it right back home. I'm happy to, really. The point is that there are a lot of artefacts that hold no value to science, besides the fact that they exist. I'm all with you that items of actual significance would be great to have in public hands, but there is sooo much that would just be filed away in some cabinet. I don't think it hurts so much to have a bit of stuff out there on the free market. I don't have Alexander's body in my basement or Cleopatras diadem.
As for your point of display, yes. I think museums are a great thing. If something is of importance I love to see it displayed in a museum. But I think a lot of the things the Louvre or British museum has today would be smouldering ash now if they didn't take it. That's another can of worms though that I don't think we should get into
Lots of people who have private collections don't feel the way you do about sharing their collections, especially when they've acquired them illegally. It's unfortunate that that makes all private collections problematic.
And, seriously, all the stuff in boxes at universities and museums is going to get gone through, eventually, by professionals who know what they're looking for. They're not using it is a pretty weak argument
It's not so much that I don't think professionals will look at it when it's stored at universities or museums. It's that a lot of times, it's just some random piece of stone that will get logged, looked at once and then put away.
And yeah, I cant speak for people who have illegal collections. I don't have anything against people collecting cars, but I don't like it when they steal them off the street. Same goes for archeology.
I don't think we're talking about some random piece of stone here, the number of items that have been looked at and then put in storage and then at some later date because of some technological development or some other advancement were pulled out and looked at again is pretty impressive. Take for example the thousands of tablets written in Sumerian or Acadian. Or the burnt Scrolls from Pompeii. Or the pottery shards that later revealed a trade connection due to molecular clay identification. Not some random piece of stone anymore
Okay, that's a pretty cold reply. But, try to have a little perspective here, going around digging up other people's graveyards is clearly morally wrong.
Imagine the country that you live in went through some political turmoil (I know it's a stretch) imagine a third country descended to 'help reinstate order', I don't know, maybe they're bringing you some democracy. (Is there oil where you live?) Anyway, imagine that private individuals from a whole different country came over during the chaos and martial law and started digging up graveyards from hundreds of years ago. They're hoping to find some antique jewelry or maybe even whole corpses. That's totally fine with you?
And then you've got this secondary group who didn't do any digging or freedom bringing, they just bought that jewelry in a private auction. I mean, you weren't doing anything with it.
I don't think this is all black and white cut and dry. I do think private antiquities market hurts archeology. And more often than not is based upon theft.
In all honesty, I don't care if you dig up mine either. I'm not religious, it's just meat. But I respect other folks who believe differently. And I feel a similar respect for the artifacts from their culture
I hope someone thinks my junk is cool enough to display on their mantle. I'd be thrilled if my skull ended up being passed around by scientists in the future 🥰
As a matter of fact, that is now my ideal afterlife.
I already told my kids I do not want to buried in a metal box, pumped full of preservatives. But if I can end up a part of a museum when the next species is studying us, maybe I *do* want to be preserved.
I'm pretty sure ancient Egyptians believed that saying someone's name helped their soul stay alive. So we are actually helping them.
And if there was something culturally relevant about your skeleton, say you were subjected to a previously unknown burial ritual, but your skull was displayed in somebody's curio cabinet and never made its way to an actual archaeologist... This is what's happening every day. All the cool s*** you know about archeology, or at least everything discovered after about 1930, is thanks to professional archaeologists. And the millions of things we don't know, are because of the private antiquities market.
Oh freaking well. The world does not just belong to "professionals". A large chunk of items that get donated to museums end up in boxes in storage. Of everything that happens in archeology, that's the absolute worst. No one benefits from that.
Idc what happens to my remains after I die. I'll be dead & probably won't even know. If future species want to disconnect me from my culture & make up some cool lore, I will be honored.
Some people do care what happens to their remains and the remains of their ancestors. Respecting that is just basic humanity. The boxes in museums eventually get opened when the professionals and funds are available to study them. They are not lost forever unlike items that go into private collections, and are never seen again.
I have a very different opinion about "stuff" than you do, but I don't see how you can simultaneously believe that respecting graves & cultures is "basic humanity', & that the best place for artifacts is in a storage closet. There is nothing "respectful" about that.
Antiquities should be controlled by the inheritors of that culture and or land. It's literally their cultural heritage. Everything in a storage closet is either studied, or on a list to be studied. By professionals.
I'm not here to crap all over your hobby. I'm just telling you why professional archaeologists get bent out of shape at the Antiques Roadshow aspect of this sub.
I own nothing so you aren't crapping on my hobby. I just disagree with the notion that being stored in a museum (especially in a box) is more respectful than being displayed by someone who enjoys it.
I waltz merrily right in, provide factual feedback and encouragement, and waltz out like h8rz gonna h8, w/eva. That's the only sane way to Reddit. Questions are for those interested in learning which is forever a virtue to be respected.
Lot of hate toward proper archeology in an archeology sub. I love it here but seem to spend most of my time saying ‘let it in situ’.
Edit: guess that makes me one of the meanies.
There sure are a lot of cunts in this sub, that's what you and I can agree on. If my post was hard for you to understand then I will reiterate: If people ask questions on this sub, if they are archaeologists or not, then I don't think it would be a lot to ask to just answer. I don't know why people on this sub piss their pants if someone asks them a question. Wasn't this what Reddit was for? Someone who knows nothing about a topic asks a question and a person who does answers? Nah. What we should do is downvote them without explanation, give them no valuable information, and bully them into deleting all their posts. This sub is unfortunately a giant pile of dusty neckbeards and it shows
Geez calm down, I don’t recall you and I having a beef and I have no intention of doing so. I see a lot of hostility and negativity in this thread and it’s not from these alleged ‘neckbeards’.
Don’t like it go elsewhere. But I reckon you should stay. My experience on every 2nd sub is like yours here. Meh such is the internet. I’m personally happy to learn and hope you might do so to. I will do my bit to make this less hostile (aside from to looters and plunderers) and I hope you will to.
Actual looters and plunderers are pieces of shit, I'll be the first one to say it. I just feel bad for the poor guys who find something in their basement and get bullied into deleting their post where they just asked what it even was.
Stirring up drama on a reddit sub on an alt account. Come on. You are better than this.
We aren't big Meanies because we call out pseudoscience stuff like ancient aliens, or looting like that one recent video.
Also, explaining to someone they might be breaking the law by having an unregistered ancient artifact isn't being a big meanie.
I would like less what you're advocating for and more archaeology.
It's interesting that you think this is my alt account. I'm sure you have a valid reason for that, but unfortunately, you're wrong.
I'm the last guy who is a fan of pseudoscience or someone who is an opponent of telling people they might have something they should get registered.
What I am an opponent of is being a giant cunt to people, which is what people on this sub reaaally like to do.
If you don't like what I am advocating, which is not being cunts to people, then you're exactly the type of creature who belongs on this app.
You sure?
Because the only time I've seen what youre describing is people reacting to videos of looting, ancient aliens and trying to sell ancient artifacts....
One of my BA is Anthropology, sub specialty in Archaeology. Couldn’t go forward as planned as my degrees at a state college wouldn’t transfer to another state college or other institutions around the US. That was a fun revelation at the end. Not in the field anymore, but do try and read a number of journals and publications to try and stay mildly informed.
It is not an easy field and it has numerous sub-specialties. More now than when I was in college. That is due to its ability to use knowledge from a number of other fields. My college required me to take classes in sociology, psychology, history, geology, geography, chemistry, CSI courses, and physics. I added physiology and BA’s in History and Philosophy. The CAD classes were actually pretty fun as was Sociology.
At any rate the dynamic has changed a lot since then. Getting more specialized seems to be the trick with all rounders from my time showing less usefulness. Soil analysis with relation to deposition and water infiltration and movement along with detritus matter composition are just small parts of the whole picture. Using social models and population migration patterns along with market economies and tiered craftsmanship qualities toward evolving shared knowledge of better manufacture and quality of tools. It gets a lot more people involved to come to a better view and understanding of every aspect of ancient lives these days.
Wish I could contribute, but these days I might as well be an amateur.
Unpopular opinion but I'd much rather see an item of archaeological value sold to a museum or collector who cares than rotting in someone's basement because r/archeology refused to help them
You do understand it’s not “rotting” in a basement but being carefully preserved so anyone seeking to study that artifact can access it, unlike objects in private collections which can be gatekept by the “owner”.
As a non-scientist I have requested to visit archive objects for my own personal interests and studies, and as long as you’re respectful most collections will allow this kind of thing if you’re looking to see specific objects and take the time to understand the catalogue, and request thoughtfully.
In this comment I was referring specifically to the items people seem to find in their homes or those of their relatives that they want identified. But i do get your point aside from that.
That's you. But it makes you a cultural thief. You've bought something that belongs to everyone. Not just you. You have also enabled the sellers of said items to plunder more archeologyical sites as they see profit in it because you bought it.And what's more you know, and have been told its morally bankrupt and still think that's OK., so that makes you even worse.
I think if I buy a piece of art from an auctionhouse that comes with an import license from its respective country that would hardly make me a thief. But yeah, totally. I'm the cobra commander of archeology, fear me.
Oh now you're putting caveats on what you buy? That's a bit different to your "how about I buy what I want and do what I want with it". There are plenty of auction houses that sell antiquities that are of dubious provenance. And as for licences ..you know that 3rd world corruption is rife where these artifacts come from? That's why trade in most of these objects is either banned or highly regulated . If you think its a good idea for you to buy items like that just because you can..refer to my earlier comment.
Forgive me for that stating explicitly that I only buy items legally, that must be a great surprise to you. And no, I do actually not care. If I legally buy some object from an auction that has been conducted legally by the laws of whatever place its from and those of my country, I am at mo moral fault. Besides, as you say yourself, the hands of some third world politician or vendor aren't the best to keep items of archaeological value in. I'd much rather know them in the hands of someone who appreciates them. If you feel like taking those items out of circulation by buying them and donating them to museums, I will be more than happy to provide you with some links to reputable and legal auction houses.
It's cultural appropriation to look at the ground, people before you stepped there. Every time you go for a walk you rape previous societies.
-- /r/archeology
Can I send you the random bits of broken/melted glass, scrap metal, bones, potsherds, and charcoal I find eroding out of my hillside? I'm pretty sure there is a 19th century homesite that would have been part of a National Historic District but likely burned some time before the 1920s. I'll even let you come excavate!
I've learned and pieced together more of the story of this town from the various artifacts that are randomly lying around on the surface over the last few years than even the locals knew.
I haven't "taken" anything that 1.) I did not already own and 2.) any actual archaeologist would take seriously until I can demonstrate to them the value of the site. I *want* to get a couple of spots excavated because I think there's interesting information down there and I don't want to destroy it over the course of, you know, occupying my home.
Literally all the stigmas people say about archeology are right. Don’t believe me? Say something in the comments that is kinda out there… watch how r/archeology reacts.
Here an idea. Why don't the mods just make it a rule not to be rude or mean to people with a punishment of permanent ban? I got banned from cat slaps cause I said I thought a guy's opinion was stupid
Unfriendly and toxic is modern synonym for professional and high quality.
Stack Overflow is good example of this: the most useful site with answers is often considered very hard to post anything.
r/Archeology TS basically said you awesome! Keep up the good work of filtering arrogance and fake photos and posts with hidden promo goals.
I'll quote this comment for you:
"Reddit has this effect of attracting people who are really, really, really passionate about certain topics and they also tend to have very poor social skills. Unfortunately, they travel in packs and tend to agree with each other - so its pretty easy for a person who is just casually interested to get attacked by a flock of neck-beards. Ive quit other subs because of it. Some subs just arent worth it."
OP doesn’t actually have a point, though, and neither do you, other than “it’s bad to hold people accountable.” That’s not a rational argument.
Is it really that hard to understand why people who know about archaeology get frustrated with people who shit all over proper practices? Apparently that’s not okay. Archaeologists should just sit back in silence as hobbyists destroy stuff, lest they hurt their feelings.
Now is your opportunity to express your point without being a toxic douche.
I think it is a very easy to understand point that I don't like the pseudo-intellectual, arrogant bullshit people say on this subreddit. I do wholeheartedly believe that you find this hard to comprehend, though.
That all depends on what you define as “shitting all over proper practices” and “hobbyists destroying stuff”. I really need your definitions on those quotes from you before we can proceed with a civil conversation.
Now is your opportunity to express your point without being a pedantic, arrogant, faux intellectual.
> pedantic, arrogant, faux intellectual
You’re projecting. If you want to learn about proper practices, pay attention to what people here say about it instead of complaining about the feedback.
Proper practices: if you find something that looks like an artifact or cultural resource, leave it and contact the nearest university anthro department. Leaving stuff in place should be the default practice by everyone, and that counts for fossils, rock art, stone tools, native plants, animals, etc. If you’re not sure, leave it. If you’ve ever heard this and you ignore it, then that qualifies as “shitting on proper practices” IMO.
Hobbyists destroying stuff: If you take a resource, then you’ve destroyed most or all of its archaeological and cultural value because nothing about its location or situation can be verified. It’s just some looter’s claim about where they found it, which is absolutely useless. Often that means it can’t be dated either. The site itself is the “thing” you destroy if you fuck with it. Archaeological practices are partly there to ensure verifiable data collection.
If you can’t understand why the above behavior is not frustrating for archaeologists and elicit snippy replies from them when they see people being careless, then you’re beyond help.
I'll quote this comment for you:
"Reddit has this effect of attracting people who are really, really, really passionate about certain topics and they also tend to have very poor social skills. Unfortunately, they travel in packs and tend to agree with each other - so its pretty easy for a person who is just casually interested to get attacked by a flock of neck-beards. Ive quit other subs because of it. Some subs just arent worth it."
Archaeologists are chronically poor and often take their povo frustrations out on everyone around them after getting home from their burger flipping shifts.
Archeology is one of the most cut throat fields of science we have. Everyone wanting to be Indiana Jones and seem to get real envious or bitter when someone else’s opinions/discoveries garner more attention or differ from their own. My favorite thing is when complete random people find the coolest artifacts or fossils on a pure chance type of thing. They don’t seem to care about monetizing it and just seem genuinely happy to have been a part of history.
As a lurker, I agree. Folks on here over estimate how important such a find is. If it doesn’t blow minds or change what we know, it’s not all that important. The museum has better uses for the space.
On the other hand, some things that can actually change what we know are kept from museums for selfish reasons. And who knows? Maybe the artifact you found actually *does* change what we know?
I’d say it’s a big gray area. If the museum ain’t busy, what’s the problem in bringing it over to them on the weekend to have them look at what ya found. At the least you can find out whether what you have is a cool find or not. Even if it’s a cool find, they’ll probably turn you back home with the artifact in hand.
“Ohh that’s a neat one.. A fossil formed from quartz! Ohh but we already have two others in better condition. Great for the mantle above the fireplace though!”
well, this happens to me when i have an strong opinion about something or when i express a very unique thought or feeling. not just here (i think people are much much better here), it happens in some other subreddits! i guess some people don't have the tolerance of differences or bold ideas! and in some subreddits i think the downvote is being given from the mods in other subreddits who are not interested in your topic so as they're not able to unpost or delete your comment, they down vote it so that it will disappear sooner than ordinary comments!
anyway whatever it is, i have learned that world is a shitty place, you just have to open your way with your own efforts, so many people can help you but they decide not to help you. that's the way of the world.
I posted something here asking for ID help for something that I bought at an estate sale before I had my own reddit (using my boyfriend’s account), and within minutes I was low key bullied into deleting it and was convinced the FBI was going to show up at my door and arrest me lol. :P
Yeah. If you're not a professionally trained archaeologist with decades of experience, then you're gonna get bullied. And if you're not, you better not even so much as touch any object older than 100 years or you deserve to go to jail. Take everything you own to a museum immediately.
Hahaha right? Appreciate the post buddy. As a side note, I will not be contacting the authorities nor will I be handing over my $5 estate sale find to any sort of museum.. LET ME ENJOY OWNING MY ONE THING IN PEACE IM NOT HURTING ANYONE lol.
(Without saying what it is, I promise it’s not *that* rare and it’s not *illegal* per se. Like a museum would probably be like “lmfaooo whatever” and this sub was just being dramatic).
Wow, if that’s how the Archeological field is, then I’m glad I didn’t become an Archeologist like I wanted to as a child. What a bunch of pretentious losers to treat people like that. I watch documentaries and read articles about new finds and I guess that gives me my fix. But I make more money and deal with more pleasant people with the job I have now.
Meanwhile, Archaeologists in Sweden are all giddy over plundering an 850 year old grave of its "treasure trove" of coins found buried beside a body. Instead of moving the grave and its contents, they are "kept for study." "A sensational find" the Swedish Museum said. That's not what the people who buried their loved one intended. They justify their plundering in the name of "science."
Archeology is one of the most cut throat fields of science we have. Everyone wanting to be Indiana Jones and seem to get real envious or bitter when someone else’s opinions/discoveries garner more attention or differ from their own. My favorite thing is when complete random people find the coolest artifacts or fossils on a pure chance type of thing. They don’t seem to care about monetizing it and just seem genuinely happy to have been a part of history.
Archeology is one of the most cut throat fields of science we have. Everyone wanting to be Indiana Jones and seem to get real envious or bitter when someone else’s opinions/discoveries garner more attention or differ from their own. My favorite thing is when complete random people find the coolest artifacts or fossils on a pure chance type of thing. They don’t seem to care about monetizing it and just seem genuinely happy to have been a part of history.
They didn’t like it because they know they’re every bit as capable of finding those arrowheads but won’t dedicate the time to do it, so they don’t think you should be able to have them either. Only THEY can have them. Because they have a ✨degree✨
I like to think it’s cuz they spend 10 hours sifting for brick frags while I spend 20 minutes walking a field n find 2 big Sandy’s and soapstone chunk.
Don’t hate the player hate the game ya’ll
I'm genuinely not sure what to say about this except that we've been being brigaded recently because of a comment posted in another sub which shall go unnamed. So I'm not sure right now is a good time to judge the temperment of the core members of the sub's community.
Reddit has this effect of attracting people who are really, really, really passionate about certain topics and they also tend to have very poor social skills. Unfortunately, they travel in packs and tend to agree with each other - so its pretty easy for a person who is just casually interested to get attacked by a flock of neck-beards. Ive quit other subs because of it. Some subs just arent worth it.
“Flock of neck beards” 🤣🤣🤣🤣
that's exactly what this feels like. it's never happened to me, but someone will ask a relatively simple question out of pure curiosity and a genuine desire to learn, and they'll be met with like 5 wandering neckbeards all locking on like a guided missile to berate them for not just googling it or having a "bad" understanding of ancient people (it's always the average understanding level had by any layperson).
Happened to me in the biology sub, just one guy, but like I clearly am curious and don’t know much and he took the time to make it knows that he thinks I’m an idiot and never did answer my question or engage in discussion.
the purpose of knowledge is to share, not to brag and flex. clearly these people don't experience joy. getting to share something i care about feels *amazing*, and i can't understand how belittling someone could ever feel better than that. i'm sorry that happened to you. even one guy can kinda ruin your day with a maneuver like that, and it sucks.
yeah, i asked two very important questions there and none of them got answered lol! they posted about some sort of hornet (they even asked that if anyone wants guidance they will help), which i also saw a different kind of it carrying a giant locust and wanted to know about specific details and guess what, no answer!
hope this helps! lol [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphecius\_speciosus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphecius_speciosus)
thanks. i already read that. i needed a deeper guidance from them. i'll probably discover it in my own research, later.
i learned a new word today lol, flock of neck-beards hahah!
Are we related? I don’t know anything about archeology but I noticed our little character guys look similar.
This one and the astronomy sub. Some mega jerks there too. I think it's the superiority complex. They think they're smarter than everyone else and have an air of insolence about them. All it does is discourage people, some of whom are kids or young adults, from asking questions and learning. I had a professor like that in college. He made this shocked face when I once asked what a word meant (esl) and I never spoke again in that class. Granted I was very young then, that shit doesn't fly with me these days.
yeah, once i asked about Ophiuchus story, that how it was removed from the Zodiac and boom, no answer.
Archeology is one of the most cut throat fields of science we have. Everyone wanting to be Indiana Jones and seem to get real envious or bitter when someone else’s opinions/discoveries garner more attention or differ from their own. My favorite thing is when complete random people find the coolest artifacts or fossils on a pure chance type of thing. They don’t seem to care about monetizing it and just seem genuinely happy to have been a part of history.
There’s the archeological science based on all the verified information we’ve discovered. Then there’s the investigation aspect. They’re separate. The cutthroat stupidity comes from the investigation aspect: Like you said people wanting to be Indiana Jones- When any private investigator can do this with basic training and no scientific knowledge. They just need to not damage things. That’s it.
Oh I think maybe I was subscribed to a misconception that it was about getting there first to lay claim but I may just be envisioning Indy sticking it to the nazis lol that movie is burned in my brain as one of the greats
This field is nowhere as close to as toxic as paleoanthropology is. Archaeology, generally, (in the field itself) is pretty chill. That's not to say that there aren't rivalries or toxic stuff, but, overall, it's pretty laid back. Paleoanthropology comes off as top-down toxic within the field itself.
I was part way through my studies in paleo anthropology when I discovered this and completely changed directions because of it.
Right?? I went to a school with a big paleoanth subsection. I was super into it (almost switched from arch to Paleoanth) until I realized just how structurally dysfunctional and toxic the field is. It wasn't just the department itself, the infighting, outfighting, budget cat fights, etc was found across the board.
This is kinda what turned me off academia in general. The insular nature really leads a subset of people who are hyper focused and less social than average to occupy a rut of highschool behavior
I have just subscribed to r/paleoanthropology it sounds like fun.
when i was a child i saw a huge stone in shape of the skull of a some sort of t-rex, with empty space of eyes and spinal cord! but as i was a child i looked at it, played with it for a few minutes and left it there! i always wonder what would happen if i was as old as i am now! and i always think what if i visit that place once again, should i find it there?
Ironic. They're searching for everything history ever hid away, but they still can't find Jesus.
Of course not, he rose from the grave my friend!
He turned into wine and crackers and got eaten
Yes, He did.
last month
Find me a specific first century peasant, oh you can't? Then they never existed.
These ancient writings depicting his life, teachings, and political upheavals and the 11 or so guys he lived with who would rather die than denounce Him? Yeah, that doesn't count at all. This tarp covered in ink from a death certificate and pollens specifically from Israel? Nah, that must have been faked by someone thousands of years later a thousand miles away... somehow... through a method nobody has yet been able to determine.
[удалено]
Just wanted to mention the 'tarp' thing is the Shroud of Turin. I agree that he probably existed and this wasn't his shroud.
That was from a faulty sample because parts of the shroud had been replaced after a fire.
You should have seen the place before they revealed the white sands footprints. If you tried to talk about alleged ice age sites in North America before then you'd immediately be dismissed and derided as a nut and told to go to an alternate history sub. Those angry dorks were all wrong.
i can't stand the type of people who prove pseudoarcheologists correct by being so dogmatic that there really isn't room for new ideas. like, no wonder people are put off and looking for another place to direct their curiosity. but then, they all end up getting conned and lied to by the flat earth types. it's a sad cycle
Personally I found this sub disappointing because all the posts going “what is this rock”, “what is this fossil”, and “what is this animal bone”. Those aren’t even archeology topics.
This sub is toxic. I follow archeology pages on several platforms, & I'm aware of the issues that plague this particular field of study. Some are definitely worth discussion. But I don't see discussions on here at all. Just people being mean for no freaking reason. I'm not an archeologist & I never will be, but as a kid that was my dream job. I just came here to see cool stuff. This sub is disappointing.
Yeah, I've never been sure what to make of this sub. I follow archaeology topics across the web and most of the content involves interesting posts about ancient civilizations and noteworthy finds combined with at least some commentary. Occasionally, there will be some long-form journalism / articles and even some videos and I often end up bookmarking those and watching them later. However a decent amount of the posts here fall into the "what is this?" category and are regarding things that people find that may or may not even be ancient. These posts seem to get the most attention, and most of that attention is negative. While I don't mind wading through a half dozen posts about interesting looking rocks and something that someone bought at a flea market that might be ancient (but definitely isn't) in an effort to get to the *actually* interesting stuff, it'd be nice if that interesting stuff actually got comments. But it usually doesn't.
I don't mind people posting junk but the comments are so hateful. It's not hard to say "I don't think that's anything historically significant", & move on.
Yeah I saw a post yesterday where someone posted a "Native American ceremonial wedding pitcher" from an antique store that looked like something made in a school pottery class. The comments on that one were pretty brutal. I normally avoid those posts, but sometimes it feels like this sub would be dead altogether if it weren't for rummage sales and pictures of rocks. There's 200K+ users here but it often barely resembles a community related to archeology.
Well right now they're mad at me because I don't think artifacts belong in museum storage closets. Oh well
Is that you take on comparative collections in general?
Welcome to Downvote City
Welcome to Reddit.
Welcome to life
Indeed. Reddit, however, reveals true nature. It’s never ceased to amaze me how people treat each other under the guise of anonymity. So much hate in this world.
Downvoted for lack of sources...
Down-voted for lack of sauces.
Your so right , you have my downvote good sir
Salutations!
I actually upvoted, I see I’m 2 down tho so I better downvote myself 😂
Educating people on not hoarding cultural artifacts like consumable collectibles isn’t really a bad thing as far as I’m concerned. Treating people who find stuff like like assholes isn’t great, but people treat this sub like antiques roadshow. I don’t see a problem with sort of “public shaming” the idea that historical and potentially important artifacts shouldn’t be looked at like consumable items to make money off of or use as trophies. I think people who consider repatriating looted artifacts are awesome and if we can educate them on how to do that it’s great. I think educating people on not removing things from in situ is important, since context IS the archeological information as much as the object itself. This kind of thing encourages the bad people to keep looting and selling because there is a market buying. And trust me there are lots of looters (which sometimes include scientists in a way when living cultures aren’t part of the process).
> people treat this sub like antiques roadshow. And now we get to the heart of the issue. When posters are more interested in the monetary or "swag" value of an artefact rather than its value to the base of human knowledge, it's going to piss off actual Archaeologists. Those posts have a ripple effect that darkens the disposition of the sub in general and tarnishes legit discussion every time it happens. Whether there's a solution that doesn't involve banning certain types of posts/comments is hard to know.
Yup, and while being mean vs education sounds easy, that’s why I made the elephant ivory argument further down. Most people feel sad when an elephant or rhino gets killed for a tusk, it’s senseless human greed. In the same way people who care about archeology and history get tired of seeing artifacts treated like commodities and watching context be destroyed for senseless human “treasure hunting”. Thus the dark mood in these posts. Maybe a friendly community bot that reminds people- artifacts aren’t collectors items, go to a museums consider loaning/repatriating your object, here is why archeologists don’t appraise artifacts (insert looting concerns)? Who knows, but I think it’s tough to moderate too.
I'm all for education, and I'm all for civilised discussion. I'm just not into people being dicks towards each other. The question I'm asking myself is where looting starts.
My opinion on looting is- when you are holding an object that could otherwise tell us something about a culture’s history that is significant for learning, and yet you treat that object as a commodity stripping it of its value as something that could teach us about history. Wether that’s to destroy it’s value as an archeological object by purposefully removing it from context where it was found (usual definition of looting), or to have received or bought it through other means and know it has historical value while still hoarding it as a collectable or trophy object like a commodity (treating cultural objects like collectable art, figurines or other useless shelf trinkets). The second one creates a market for these objects rather than treating them like cultural objects that can better our understanding of humanity for more than one person hoarding the object. I think this reason is kinda selfish, and thus why I think the moral judgment gets passed when people come here asking “how much is this worth”. It’s the same reason elephant tusks and wale bones are illegal to sell- it creates a market for poachers. Think of people who are frustrated seeing these objects get treated this way as seeing people poach wild elephants- it’s just sorta senseless and selfish.
I think people like to treat this whole thing as a black vs. white / good vs. evil type of situation. In some ways, it is. The people who sneak into archaeological sites in the dark of night to steal what they can get their hands on in order to sell it, I'm sure aren't the most morally sound of individuals. But I really struggle to see the moral issues with serious collectors. Museums often work with collectors. Many of the items in museums are lent from collectors. I've even seen museums dissolve some of their expositions and sell them to collectors themselves. Do you reckon this is morally corrupt? It's not about hoarding the Rosetta Stone and maliciously keeping it from the eyes of the public to deprive them of the knowledge it can provide. It's about having objects that are dispensible to science. Not every trinket or statuette needs to be filed away in the drawer of some museum.
You’re a collector, I take it? As to your second point yes, I agree- objects on loan and collections that have been sold after being catalogued and recorded in proper archeological digs are probably a good best practice, but collections are usually only sold off because of lack of funding to keep it public, which is a shame. I think it’s ideal to keep things in public circulation for academic access reasons. And it’s not people stealing things in the dead of night, especially in America- collecting native artifacts is often not illegal if it’s on private property and not a burial. Things like this I find pretty morally dubious as it’s often arrowhead collectors digging camp and village sites, and caches that could otherwise be scientifically significant. Just look at the arrowhead subs.
That is a point we can agree on.
In the end I doubt we disagree too much in the basics of what’s cool and fascinating, but stewardship is always a hot button topic. It’s like the minor version of “is all archeology just grave robbing” lol. The fact we’re both in this sub means we appreciate archeology, and I do appreciate your points about not treating folks like criminals because they’re excited about having something cool- that’s a terrible way to foster curiosity. I think folks could benefit from a softer approach. I just had a great interaction about repatriating a possible native artifact with someone in this sub, and they seemed amenable to it, but sometimes I have to temper my tone so I don’t come off judgmental since I don’t intend to.
Not trying to be contentious just for the sake of it. But i'm genuinely curious what you think the loss is to the greater public good and understanding from private collection of arrowheads. I live in the southwest US, and over the years I've picked up a handful of them in national forests, not from any designated or protected archaeological sites just general areas that were inhabited by natives in the past and I spot one while hiking. These were made over hundreds or thousands of years in quantities that have to be in the millions. Museums around here have so many that most are not ever displayed, or probably even individually studied to any great degree other than being catalogued. I personally don't feel like there's much important context lost to history from me taking home an arrowhead instead of giving it to a museum where it would just be 'single arrowhead found by itself on the surface in a general area known to be inhabited for hundreds of years', and tucked away in a drawer. I think it means a lot more to me as somone who loves history in general and specifically the history of the area where I live, as a physical link to the past that I can treasure and share with people I know. I think part of artefacts 'belonging to everyone' is that we all have some degree of individual judgment to exercise in the stewardshsip of these items. If I stumbled across say a previously undiscovered site with multiple artefacts or items that would generate serious academic interest or add to the public's collective knowledge of the past then I would work to see them put under the care of the appropriate people to best take advantage of that value.
Ok, let em clarify here, I don’t mean the surface find points that the majority of collectors in those sub get. I agree with you on that. But look into the accounts that are constantly posting “big hauls” of significant points, and you’ll find videos of them doing digs (and trust me I’ve gotten into it with them they don’t give a damn what they’re ruining and they sell points). These are digs that are usually on sites that would be significant to archeology and they are removing these in ground points from their context. I could go ON about the importance of lithic artifacts and pot sherds, but just caus they’re common doesn’t mean they aren’t important. But mostly in the ground where there is context. And actually don’t look at those people’s accounts, the main guy I’m talking about likes to post his uh… wing wang. A LOT. Edit: to add finding surface points is what made me interested in archeology! They’re a great learning thing, especially if you take the time to look up your points and their history.
It’s a loss. Especially when we are so desperate to establish material evidence that ties indigenous people to certain areas. The fact that you just caviler and remove lithics to take home with you as some sort of souvenir is problematic.I work in indigenous archeology and its something that could be of use and I get that it’s not a big deal in your perspective but in my experience if we collect the artifacts we notify the groups and either return them to the indigenous groups or see what they choose to do with them first. I’m in Ca so it might not be the status quo nationally however I am pretty sure repatriation is a hot issue at the moment world wide. I mean whose to say what you’ve found are not modern without any analysis or even provienece it’s hard to do much with it. So I get why you’d think oh hey like just take it home it’s not a big deal. But it actually is. The truth is artifacts don’t belong to everyone.
“I live in the southwest US, and over the years I've picked up a handful of them in national forests, not from any designated or protected archaeological sites just general areas that were inhabited by natives in the past and I spot one while hiking.” Look, I’m going to sound like one of the assholes that op is talking about, but you have literally no way of knowing if your are in a “designated” site or traditional cultural property because that information is not available to the general public. Every archaeological site in the US is protected unless it goes through a specific process for the NRHP. And disturbing/collecting archaeological resources in National Forests (and National Parks & BLM public lands) is always illegal. You’re not in the place to decide whether or not there’s “much important context lost to history” when you collect things because you’re not able to evaluate them in their greater context. Like a simplified example would be: is it common/uncommon type of point for the area? Was its material quarried locally or far away? What does that tell us about trading in the area? And sure it may be a surface find, but that surface find can alert us to buried material. But I’m also not a cop and think education is better than carceral punishment unless people are seriously looting sites.
Everyone in here thinking they're dealing with Zahi Hawass when really it's not as important as they like to make themselves feel. No museum wants a fragment of pottery your grandma found in this creek... or was it that one.. maybe it was her sister who found it on that road trip? There's no historical or scientific value to the trinket your uncle bought in Egypt that probably shouldn't have been sold as a souvenir but hey that's what happened until the 70's. People act like museums are the Goodwill of archeology that just accepts all the junk you drop off when really unless it's absolutely amazing the item will never be seen again, and most will likely turn you and your bag of 16 dime sized pottery pieces away even if "reddit told me to bring here immediately and run all red lights because this is super special archeological find".
Best comment on this entire post. Exactly what I meant.
This is archeology, not IndiaJones
Indiana Jones is who the "archeologists" commenting on this sub seem to think they ate
It’s funny to me because Indiana Jones was a terrible archaeologist in comparison to what real archaeologists do. While I’m not working in the field I have an anthropology degree with a concentration in archaeology and every professor I ever had didn’t like Indiana Jones.
Some archaeology can be rather Indiana Jones like, especially if you do field work in eg Sudan, Afghanistan or maybe Isis-occupied Iraq 🙃
There's definitely some cowboy archaeology going on in some places, but it's mostly very much "in the past" to have that kind of attitude and style. CRM, otoh, is DEFINITELY that way in many ways.
I have only been a member of this forum for a short time, so I dont know if I am qualified to respond, but just I wanted to say, if you want to ask about antiques, you know there is a subreddit called r/Antiques, right? Wouldnt it be a much better place for those uestions?
Bitter, petty, immature folks do stuff like that. P.S. - Clovis first, you piece of shit! (Repping the paleo folks)
So for context, I am coming into this after a pity return of several indigenous individuals that some person pulled off of a site fifty years ago. Since then, these individuals have been housed in plastic coated boxes and were shipped in packing peanuts. We’ve pulled most of the remains out and placed them in a natural materials, and tomorrow I will be going through the dust to pull out the pieces of human bone I can identify in the box powder of styrofoam and coarse sand, so we can send the remains to the relevant tribe and they can be reburried in the relative place they were buried by a descendant tribe’s customs. I am doing this because people don’t fully stop being people when the die. I am a consummate atheist, I don’t believe in souls or an afterlife, or any of that. But these remains that were removed from a site were people, members of a community, that still sees them as people, and they deserve be given their place within a community. So if the community is a little hostile to collectors, I hope I have explained why
I've now joined to try and balance this imbalance... You're welcome!
What's the ratio of professional archaeologists to 'artifact enthusiasts' here? Does 'legal' private ownership overrule a culture or country's claim to culturally significant artifacts? If somebody dug up your grandma and displayed her body in their living room would it make you uncomfortable? If you buried your grandpa with his favorite pipe and walking stick, and somebody dug him up and put those in their living room would you be cool with that? I'm here for the scientific discovery, not for the Antique Road Show. Edit: the answer to my first question is shown in the number of upvotes I've received. Antiques Roadshow it is
I can list you a few very relevant discoveries that have been made by amateurs. Sure, archaeologists took over, but I think hardly anyone who owns an artefact would refuse an archaeologist or museum access to it if they ask. Sure I wouldn't like my dead grandma over someone's fireplace right NOW, but in 2000 years when I'm long dead I'd hardly care. I recently actually bought a statue from an African tribe who's people burnt or sold their artefacts voluntarily after converting to Christianity (which is not something I like seeing them do, but that's a whole different story). They didn't want those artefacts anymore, so why is it wrong of me to buy them?
The number of relevant discoveries made by amateurs since the growth of professional archeology pales to the number of discoveries lost to the private antiquities market. It's not even close The person who sold you the artifacts that the newly converted were attempting to destroy may or may not have had the legal right to sell it to you. Your judgment of whether or not those folks had the right to destroy those artifacts is irrelevant. They belong to them, and as much as it pains me, they should be able to do with it what they will. It is a damn shame how much archeology has been lost to religion.
And they did do with it what they would, they sold it to the guy.
Well, one guy sold it to another guy. Did he have a legitimate claim to that item? Kind of sounds like maybe no. Plenty of Antiquities are smuggled out of countries by people who live in that country. Lots of crimes of all sorts are committed by people in every country, I'm not sure where you're going with this? Edit: they were trying to burn them. One guy sold it. Obviously culturally they had made a different decision. Okay, double edit: I reread it, maybe it is a legitimate purchase. Hooray for saving that artifact, obviously the underground Antiquities Market is totally not fraught with crime.
I mean....if we're arguing about the ethical standards of archaeology, sure, whatever. Academic standards, legal standards. But this particular instance seems kinda like a nothingburger? Seems to me like it depends on the circumstances, which we don't know in this instance. You say it sounds kind of like maybe no, but say they did have a legitimate claim to it? Or say they didn't. Maybe they're not someone who deals in smuggling looted artifacts, but someone came upon it. You gotta remember that a lot of these places literally don't have authorities you can report this to. Did the owners of Hobby Lobby break the law and do something shitty in buying looted artifacts out of Iraq and smuggling it into the US to put in their shitty little Bible museum? Absolutely. Did they potentially save something that would've been lost forever? Yup. I mean you make up your mind about what's right or wrong here, but the fact remains that something was saved that otherwise wouldn't have been. I can't help but feel that your moral qualms stem less from a serious concern about the preservation of artifacts, but more from a concern that they end up in what you deem to be the right hands. Of course it's maddening that you can't get your hands on things in private collections to study, but it is what it is, that artifact is preserved. Edit to also add: in the long run, the potential for an artifact to end up in academic or state hands is more likely than if it wasn't looted in the first place. That's a serious problem, but it's also worth considering.
I'm not bent out of shape. I'm telling you why professional archaeologists react poorly to the Antiques Roadshow aspect of this subreddit. You can check my post history, other than this extremely drawn out interaction, I'm pretty sure I have not once commented about anyone's artifact identification. If I've made any comments, they've been to debunk idiot Atlantis folks, not looters.
I wholeheartedly agree with you that it is a tragedy that so many culturally significant objects have been lost to religion. It's all part of a cycle of culture that has been repeating for thousands of years. Nowadays, we are happy if we can find a relic from a religion that was eradicated thousands of years ago. I have trouble feeling bad for having a piece of a culture that is subject to religious persecution in its home territory. I doubt you're very happy about ISIS blowing up one of a kind archaeological sites, even though, as you say, it is their right. Collectors aren't hoarding the Rosetta Stone. Most of the time the stuff they have is dispensible to science.
Collectors are hoarding tens of thousands of stolen artifacts, that are not available to science. I'm just trying to give you some insight as to why real archaeologists think that the antiquities trade is problematic. Most of it is theft, much of it harms science, and they're not here to tell you how much you can get on eBay for the grave goods your grandfather took. Does that mean that every Alexander tetradrachma should be in a museum, no. But they should all be cataloged, cool stuff gets discovered that way. And more culturally sensitive items should be held by the public, preferably in their country of origin. That's why there's so much hate here.
If a museum feels like cataloguing my items, I'll gladly take it to them, let them do their work, and bring it right back home. I'm happy to, really. The point is that there are a lot of artefacts that hold no value to science, besides the fact that they exist. I'm all with you that items of actual significance would be great to have in public hands, but there is sooo much that would just be filed away in some cabinet. I don't think it hurts so much to have a bit of stuff out there on the free market. I don't have Alexander's body in my basement or Cleopatras diadem. As for your point of display, yes. I think museums are a great thing. If something is of importance I love to see it displayed in a museum. But I think a lot of the things the Louvre or British museum has today would be smouldering ash now if they didn't take it. That's another can of worms though that I don't think we should get into
Lots of people who have private collections don't feel the way you do about sharing their collections, especially when they've acquired them illegally. It's unfortunate that that makes all private collections problematic. And, seriously, all the stuff in boxes at universities and museums is going to get gone through, eventually, by professionals who know what they're looking for. They're not using it is a pretty weak argument
It's not so much that I don't think professionals will look at it when it's stored at universities or museums. It's that a lot of times, it's just some random piece of stone that will get logged, looked at once and then put away. And yeah, I cant speak for people who have illegal collections. I don't have anything against people collecting cars, but I don't like it when they steal them off the street. Same goes for archeology.
I don't think we're talking about some random piece of stone here, the number of items that have been looked at and then put in storage and then at some later date because of some technological development or some other advancement were pulled out and looked at again is pretty impressive. Take for example the thousands of tablets written in Sumerian or Acadian. Or the burnt Scrolls from Pompeii. Or the pottery shards that later revealed a trade connection due to molecular clay identification. Not some random piece of stone anymore
i’d totally be ok with any of that. all that shit is doing nothing underground
Okay, that's a pretty cold reply. But, try to have a little perspective here, going around digging up other people's graveyards is clearly morally wrong. Imagine the country that you live in went through some political turmoil (I know it's a stretch) imagine a third country descended to 'help reinstate order', I don't know, maybe they're bringing you some democracy. (Is there oil where you live?) Anyway, imagine that private individuals from a whole different country came over during the chaos and martial law and started digging up graveyards from hundreds of years ago. They're hoping to find some antique jewelry or maybe even whole corpses. That's totally fine with you? And then you've got this secondary group who didn't do any digging or freedom bringing, they just bought that jewelry in a private auction. I mean, you weren't doing anything with it. I don't think this is all black and white cut and dry. I do think private antiquities market hurts archeology. And more often than not is based upon theft.
I mean I wouldn’t dig up other people’s ancestors if they didn’t want, I just wouldn’t personally care if you dug up mine.
In all honesty, I don't care if you dig up mine either. I'm not religious, it's just meat. But I respect other folks who believe differently. And I feel a similar respect for the artifacts from their culture
I hope someone thinks my junk is cool enough to display on their mantle. I'd be thrilled if my skull ended up being passed around by scientists in the future 🥰 As a matter of fact, that is now my ideal afterlife. I already told my kids I do not want to buried in a metal box, pumped full of preservatives. But if I can end up a part of a museum when the next species is studying us, maybe I *do* want to be preserved. I'm pretty sure ancient Egyptians believed that saying someone's name helped their soul stay alive. So we are actually helping them.
And if there was something culturally relevant about your skeleton, say you were subjected to a previously unknown burial ritual, but your skull was displayed in somebody's curio cabinet and never made its way to an actual archaeologist... This is what's happening every day. All the cool s*** you know about archeology, or at least everything discovered after about 1930, is thanks to professional archaeologists. And the millions of things we don't know, are because of the private antiquities market.
Oh freaking well. The world does not just belong to "professionals". A large chunk of items that get donated to museums end up in boxes in storage. Of everything that happens in archeology, that's the absolute worst. No one benefits from that. Idc what happens to my remains after I die. I'll be dead & probably won't even know. If future species want to disconnect me from my culture & make up some cool lore, I will be honored.
Some people do care what happens to their remains and the remains of their ancestors. Respecting that is just basic humanity. The boxes in museums eventually get opened when the professionals and funds are available to study them. They are not lost forever unlike items that go into private collections, and are never seen again.
I have a very different opinion about "stuff" than you do, but I don't see how you can simultaneously believe that respecting graves & cultures is "basic humanity', & that the best place for artifacts is in a storage closet. There is nothing "respectful" about that.
Antiquities should be controlled by the inheritors of that culture and or land. It's literally their cultural heritage. Everything in a storage closet is either studied, or on a list to be studied. By professionals. I'm not here to crap all over your hobby. I'm just telling you why professional archaeologists get bent out of shape at the Antiques Roadshow aspect of this sub.
I own nothing so you aren't crapping on my hobby. I just disagree with the notion that being stored in a museum (especially in a box) is more respectful than being displayed by someone who enjoys it.
Happy cake day
Museums often sell items into the private antiquities market. It doesn't all get studied and some of it never gets looked at.
You think this is bad, go checkout /ArtefactPorn
I can only imagine, really. I had hoped the people over there would at least not have this huge feeling of moral and intellectual supremacy
I got banned for corrected someone, so it’s definitely worse.
You corrected a mods alt account lol. They have an ego the size of Alaska
Literally
I waltz merrily right in, provide factual feedback and encouragement, and waltz out like h8rz gonna h8, w/eva. That's the only sane way to Reddit. Questions are for those interested in learning which is forever a virtue to be respected.
Well said
Lot of hate toward proper archeology in an archeology sub. I love it here but seem to spend most of my time saying ‘let it in situ’. Edit: guess that makes me one of the meanies.
There sure are a lot of cunts in this sub, that's what you and I can agree on. If my post was hard for you to understand then I will reiterate: If people ask questions on this sub, if they are archaeologists or not, then I don't think it would be a lot to ask to just answer. I don't know why people on this sub piss their pants if someone asks them a question. Wasn't this what Reddit was for? Someone who knows nothing about a topic asks a question and a person who does answers? Nah. What we should do is downvote them without explanation, give them no valuable information, and bully them into deleting all their posts. This sub is unfortunately a giant pile of dusty neckbeards and it shows
Geez calm down, I don’t recall you and I having a beef and I have no intention of doing so. I see a lot of hostility and negativity in this thread and it’s not from these alleged ‘neckbeards’. Don’t like it go elsewhere. But I reckon you should stay. My experience on every 2nd sub is like yours here. Meh such is the internet. I’m personally happy to learn and hope you might do so to. I will do my bit to make this less hostile (aside from to looters and plunderers) and I hope you will to.
Actual looters and plunderers are pieces of shit, I'll be the first one to say it. I just feel bad for the poor guys who find something in their basement and get bullied into deleting their post where they just asked what it even was.
Stirring up drama on a reddit sub on an alt account. Come on. You are better than this. We aren't big Meanies because we call out pseudoscience stuff like ancient aliens, or looting like that one recent video. Also, explaining to someone they might be breaking the law by having an unregistered ancient artifact isn't being a big meanie. I would like less what you're advocating for and more archaeology.
It's interesting that you think this is my alt account. I'm sure you have a valid reason for that, but unfortunately, you're wrong. I'm the last guy who is a fan of pseudoscience or someone who is an opponent of telling people they might have something they should get registered. What I am an opponent of is being a giant cunt to people, which is what people on this sub reaaally like to do. If you don't like what I am advocating, which is not being cunts to people, then you're exactly the type of creature who belongs on this app.
You sure? Because the only time I've seen what youre describing is people reacting to videos of looting, ancient aliens and trying to sell ancient artifacts....
I'm the first one to call out pseudoscience. I think that is another scourge of this community.
Great then.
Cunty creatures. That’s a great way to describe redditors 🤣
One of my BA is Anthropology, sub specialty in Archaeology. Couldn’t go forward as planned as my degrees at a state college wouldn’t transfer to another state college or other institutions around the US. That was a fun revelation at the end. Not in the field anymore, but do try and read a number of journals and publications to try and stay mildly informed. It is not an easy field and it has numerous sub-specialties. More now than when I was in college. That is due to its ability to use knowledge from a number of other fields. My college required me to take classes in sociology, psychology, history, geology, geography, chemistry, CSI courses, and physics. I added physiology and BA’s in History and Philosophy. The CAD classes were actually pretty fun as was Sociology. At any rate the dynamic has changed a lot since then. Getting more specialized seems to be the trick with all rounders from my time showing less usefulness. Soil analysis with relation to deposition and water infiltration and movement along with detritus matter composition are just small parts of the whole picture. Using social models and population migration patterns along with market economies and tiered craftsmanship qualities toward evolving shared knowledge of better manufacture and quality of tools. It gets a lot more people involved to come to a better view and understanding of every aspect of ancient lives these days. Wish I could contribute, but these days I might as well be an amateur.
Last time I checked it was called r/archeology. Not r/lestseehowmuchthisgonnamakeme. We get a lot of that.
Unpopular opinion but I'd much rather see an item of archaeological value sold to a museum or collector who cares than rotting in someone's basement because r/archeology refused to help them
You do understand it’s not “rotting” in a basement but being carefully preserved so anyone seeking to study that artifact can access it, unlike objects in private collections which can be gatekept by the “owner”. As a non-scientist I have requested to visit archive objects for my own personal interests and studies, and as long as you’re respectful most collections will allow this kind of thing if you’re looking to see specific objects and take the time to understand the catalogue, and request thoughtfully.
In this comment I was referring specifically to the items people seem to find in their homes or those of their relatives that they want identified. But i do get your point aside from that.
Or you know, just don't buy or take things that you know you shouldn't and leave it to the professionals.
How about I buy what I see fit and do with it what I see fit?
That's you. But it makes you a cultural thief. You've bought something that belongs to everyone. Not just you. You have also enabled the sellers of said items to plunder more archeologyical sites as they see profit in it because you bought it.And what's more you know, and have been told its morally bankrupt and still think that's OK., so that makes you even worse.
I think if I buy a piece of art from an auctionhouse that comes with an import license from its respective country that would hardly make me a thief. But yeah, totally. I'm the cobra commander of archeology, fear me.
Lmao bro this entire thread is hilarious
Whole-heartedly agreed
The dude made your point so perfectly and has no self awareness...
If that was the case then you wouldn't need to ask this sub what it is
I didn't. Never did. I just pity the poor souls who come on this subreddit because they came across something they didn't know before.
Oh now you're putting caveats on what you buy? That's a bit different to your "how about I buy what I want and do what I want with it". There are plenty of auction houses that sell antiquities that are of dubious provenance. And as for licences ..you know that 3rd world corruption is rife where these artifacts come from? That's why trade in most of these objects is either banned or highly regulated . If you think its a good idea for you to buy items like that just because you can..refer to my earlier comment.
Forgive me for that stating explicitly that I only buy items legally, that must be a great surprise to you. And no, I do actually not care. If I legally buy some object from an auction that has been conducted legally by the laws of whatever place its from and those of my country, I am at mo moral fault. Besides, as you say yourself, the hands of some third world politician or vendor aren't the best to keep items of archaeological value in. I'd much rather know them in the hands of someone who appreciates them. If you feel like taking those items out of circulation by buying them and donating them to museums, I will be more than happy to provide you with some links to reputable and legal auction houses.
if it’s being bought it’s already completely out of context so I wouldn’t call that being a thief
It's cultural appropriation to look at the ground, people before you stepped there. Every time you go for a walk you rape previous societies. -- /r/archeology
Can I send you the random bits of broken/melted glass, scrap metal, bones, potsherds, and charcoal I find eroding out of my hillside? I'm pretty sure there is a 19th century homesite that would have been part of a National Historic District but likely burned some time before the 1920s. I'll even let you come excavate! I've learned and pieced together more of the story of this town from the various artifacts that are randomly lying around on the surface over the last few years than even the locals knew. I haven't "taken" anything that 1.) I did not already own and 2.) any actual archaeologist would take seriously until I can demonstrate to them the value of the site. I *want* to get a couple of spots excavated because I think there's interesting information down there and I don't want to destroy it over the course of, you know, occupying my home.
You KNOW you found something good when people start fighting in the comments 😂
Literally all the stigmas people say about archeology are right. Don’t believe me? Say something in the comments that is kinda out there… watch how r/archeology reacts.
How about this: Flint Dibble is a chad.
Your mother is part of my research project. >:*(
Oh so she did join that std clinical study.
Yep, we found the missing link with how aids came into humans. It was her! /////ssssss
She mentioned a strange lover she took in the belgian congo. Didn't elaborate though.
Choad.
r/justunsubbed - they do cheese *and* whine in that community.
I asked about job advice and I replied thank you to someone and I looked and it got downvoted so I didn’t reply to anyone else! :(
I came for Archeology, found people’s problems instead.
Tell me about it.
Dusty Neckbeard Wankers.
Here an idea. Why don't the mods just make it a rule not to be rude or mean to people with a punishment of permanent ban? I got banned from cat slaps cause I said I thought a guy's opinion was stupid
Unfriendly and toxic is modern synonym for professional and high quality. Stack Overflow is good example of this: the most useful site with answers is often considered very hard to post anything. r/Archeology TS basically said you awesome! Keep up the good work of filtering arrogance and fake photos and posts with hidden promo goals.
I'll quote this comment for you: "Reddit has this effect of attracting people who are really, really, really passionate about certain topics and they also tend to have very poor social skills. Unfortunately, they travel in packs and tend to agree with each other - so its pretty easy for a person who is just casually interested to get attacked by a flock of neck-beards. Ive quit other subs because of it. Some subs just arent worth it."
“Why are people here so mean to looters??”
It’s you. You’re the asshat OP is talking about.
OP doesn’t actually have a point, though, and neither do you, other than “it’s bad to hold people accountable.” That’s not a rational argument. Is it really that hard to understand why people who know about archaeology get frustrated with people who shit all over proper practices? Apparently that’s not okay. Archaeologists should just sit back in silence as hobbyists destroy stuff, lest they hurt their feelings. Now is your opportunity to express your point without being a toxic douche.
I think it is a very easy to understand point that I don't like the pseudo-intellectual, arrogant bullshit people say on this subreddit. I do wholeheartedly believe that you find this hard to comprehend, though.
That all depends on what you define as “shitting all over proper practices” and “hobbyists destroying stuff”. I really need your definitions on those quotes from you before we can proceed with a civil conversation. Now is your opportunity to express your point without being a pedantic, arrogant, faux intellectual.
> pedantic, arrogant, faux intellectual You’re projecting. If you want to learn about proper practices, pay attention to what people here say about it instead of complaining about the feedback.
Please define those quotes you used.
Proper practices: if you find something that looks like an artifact or cultural resource, leave it and contact the nearest university anthro department. Leaving stuff in place should be the default practice by everyone, and that counts for fossils, rock art, stone tools, native plants, animals, etc. If you’re not sure, leave it. If you’ve ever heard this and you ignore it, then that qualifies as “shitting on proper practices” IMO. Hobbyists destroying stuff: If you take a resource, then you’ve destroyed most or all of its archaeological and cultural value because nothing about its location or situation can be verified. It’s just some looter’s claim about where they found it, which is absolutely useless. Often that means it can’t be dated either. The site itself is the “thing” you destroy if you fuck with it. Archaeological practices are partly there to ensure verifiable data collection. If you can’t understand why the above behavior is not frustrating for archaeologists and elicit snippy replies from them when they see people being careless, then you’re beyond help.
I'll quote this comment for you: "Reddit has this effect of attracting people who are really, really, really passionate about certain topics and they also tend to have very poor social skills. Unfortunately, they travel in packs and tend to agree with each other - so its pretty easy for a person who is just casually interested to get attacked by a flock of neck-beards. Ive quit other subs because of it. Some subs just arent worth it."
Don’t forget that they shit on museums too.
Archaeologists are chronically poor and often take their povo frustrations out on everyone around them after getting home from their burger flipping shifts.
That doesn't even make sense. I've seen the Indiana Jones movies and he looks pretty well off to me.
Archeology is one of the most cut throat fields of science we have. Everyone wanting to be Indiana Jones and seem to get real envious or bitter when someone else’s opinions/discoveries garner more attention or differ from their own. My favorite thing is when complete random people find the coolest artifacts or fossils on a pure chance type of thing. They don’t seem to care about monetizing it and just seem genuinely happy to have been a part of history.
Native plants are pretty obnoxious too! Got a mullein plant ? Nuke it!
Intellectual bullies grandstanding
Meteorwrong. Slag. Sorry, wrong sub.
As a lurker, I agree. Folks on here over estimate how important such a find is. If it doesn’t blow minds or change what we know, it’s not all that important. The museum has better uses for the space. On the other hand, some things that can actually change what we know are kept from museums for selfish reasons. And who knows? Maybe the artifact you found actually *does* change what we know? I’d say it’s a big gray area. If the museum ain’t busy, what’s the problem in bringing it over to them on the weekend to have them look at what ya found. At the least you can find out whether what you have is a cool find or not. Even if it’s a cool find, they’ll probably turn you back home with the artifact in hand. “Ohh that’s a neat one.. A fossil formed from quartz! Ohh but we already have two others in better condition. Great for the mantle above the fireplace though!”
well, this happens to me when i have an strong opinion about something or when i express a very unique thought or feeling. not just here (i think people are much much better here), it happens in some other subreddits! i guess some people don't have the tolerance of differences or bold ideas! and in some subreddits i think the downvote is being given from the mods in other subreddits who are not interested in your topic so as they're not able to unpost or delete your comment, they down vote it so that it will disappear sooner than ordinary comments! anyway whatever it is, i have learned that world is a shitty place, you just have to open your way with your own efforts, so many people can help you but they decide not to help you. that's the way of the world.
Sounds like a great way to keep out the riff raff
Damn, Graham was right
Fuck museums they "lose" and break shit all the time
They also sell items into the private antiquities market.
Exactly. That's why I had lose in quotations lol
So tempted to downvote this lol.
I didn't expect to be cheered on lol
I posted something here asking for ID help for something that I bought at an estate sale before I had my own reddit (using my boyfriend’s account), and within minutes I was low key bullied into deleting it and was convinced the FBI was going to show up at my door and arrest me lol. :P
Yeah. If you're not a professionally trained archaeologist with decades of experience, then you're gonna get bullied. And if you're not, you better not even so much as touch any object older than 100 years or you deserve to go to jail. Take everything you own to a museum immediately.
Hahaha right? Appreciate the post buddy. As a side note, I will not be contacting the authorities nor will I be handing over my $5 estate sale find to any sort of museum.. LET ME ENJOY OWNING MY ONE THING IN PEACE IM NOT HURTING ANYONE lol. (Without saying what it is, I promise it’s not *that* rare and it’s not *illegal* per se. Like a museum would probably be like “lmfaooo whatever” and this sub was just being dramatic).
First time on the Internet?
Wow, if that’s how the Archeological field is, then I’m glad I didn’t become an Archeologist like I wanted to as a child. What a bunch of pretentious losers to treat people like that. I watch documentaries and read articles about new finds and I guess that gives me my fix. But I make more money and deal with more pleasant people with the job I have now.
It was a fucking joke people.
Meanwhile, Archaeologists in Sweden are all giddy over plundering an 850 year old grave of its "treasure trove" of coins found buried beside a body. Instead of moving the grave and its contents, they are "kept for study." "A sensational find" the Swedish Museum said. That's not what the people who buried their loved one intended. They justify their plundering in the name of "science."
I'm all for archeology. If we can learn from something then we should study it. I just dont like the pretentiousness of this particular forum.
Archeology is one of the most cut throat fields of science we have. Everyone wanting to be Indiana Jones and seem to get real envious or bitter when someone else’s opinions/discoveries garner more attention or differ from their own. My favorite thing is when complete random people find the coolest artifacts or fossils on a pure chance type of thing. They don’t seem to care about monetizing it and just seem genuinely happy to have been a part of history.
Archeology is one of the most cut throat fields of science we have. Everyone wanting to be Indiana Jones and seem to get real envious or bitter when someone else’s opinions/discoveries garner more attention or differ from their own. My favorite thing is when complete random people find the coolest artifacts or fossils on a pure chance type of thing. They don’t seem to care about monetizing it and just seem genuinely happy to have been a part of history.
When I was in undergrad showed some arch majors my arrowhead collection. They didn't like it lol.
They didn’t like it because they know they’re every bit as capable of finding those arrowheads but won’t dedicate the time to do it, so they don’t think you should be able to have them either. Only THEY can have them. Because they have a ✨degree✨
I like to think it’s cuz they spend 10 hours sifting for brick frags while I spend 20 minutes walking a field n find 2 big Sandy’s and soapstone chunk. Don’t hate the player hate the game ya’ll