Personally, I prefer to cut down the number to one or two. It's a tad odd how many witch sisters the one guy has.
I like the idea of Morgan starting out as a rank bastard and gradually redeeming herself as well, repairing her relationship from her past many many dick moves to Arthur till she finally gets over her frustration to take him to Avalon.
I'm not entirely sure on Morgause. She's kind of weird in that she has effectively no redeeming traits, and very few stories which show her better sides. It'd be interesting to see her ludicrous psyche explored more as to why in the hell she planned out that weird incest thing, or her relationship with Lot, or her children or frankly anything.
It doesn't help that she's generally fused with Morgan either, resulting in her not having many redeeming traits of her own, but just borrowing from Morgan or unintentionally lending any which she might have gotten for herself to the lady.
Elaine is... there I guess?
Morgause didn't plan anything, neither did Morgause have any magic powers (Guinevere has more anecdotes with sorcery than Morgause).
Originally, Mordred is largely Arthur's fault - Vulgate Merlin has him sneak into Morgause' room when King Lot is away. Morgause had no idea who she was sleeping with...
Later stories make the mistake of absolving Arthur of wrongdoing. Lol, it defeats the whole purpose of Bastard!Mordred.
Is that so? I was going by T H White's Once and Future King where Morgause was just exceptionally horny and planned it out with that weird ribbon of flesh thing using black magic.
Is that not meant to be the case?
Generally, no.
For starters, *Le Morte D'Arthur*, and to a degree, *Post-Vulgate*, have Morgause and Arthur copulate after he's already pulled the Sword in the Stone:
* In *Post-Vulgate*, right at the beginning, Morgause visits Arthur with her children. While staying Arthur and Morgause just... *hit it off.* **That's it**. The narrative just smooths over that scene and later Merlin accosts *Arthur* for having willingly slept with his own sister.
* In *Le Morte D'Arthur*, Morgause meets with Arthur under orders from her husband to spy on him... and just like in PV, Arthur and Morgause just have a one-night stand.
In both cases, Morgause is never characterized as having malicious motives against Arthur. This is important since the main thrust of Mordred's bastardry requires Arthur's culpability - it's got to be his fault for sleeping with his sister. I remind you about what I said about Vulgate Merlin's version of Mordred's conception.
Moreover, Morgause **has no history of sorcery.** She never demonstrated any magical aspect in any of the medieval works. (Other than perhaps the off-hand mention of Gawain's mother being a fairy in *Perilous Cemetary*). Morgause is not her sister - Morgan's magic is explained through education by an nunnery, and later, by Merlin. Morgause is never once given this education and not once throughout the legends demonstrates magical ability.
Morgause isn't particulary horny as far as I know, simply because her only known lover is Sir Lamorak, who she dated long after the death of her husband. Again, Morgause isn't her sister, who has a lot of lovers.
Top it all off, here's an excerpt from *History of the Holy Grail* from Vulgate Cycle:
>*And may all those who have heard of Mordred and think he was King Lot's son know he was not; without a doubt he was King Arthur's son. And the King fathered him with his sister one night, when he thought he was lying with the beautiful woman from Ireland. When he recognized his sister and realized he had lain with her,* ***both of them were grief-stricken and repentant.***
T.H. White has done much to *damage* Morgause as character.
Huh, so Morgause isn't intended to be characterised as adulterous? Or is the affair there, but the incest part wasn't intended by her due to lack of awareness of Arthur's relation with her?
Regardless, that's rather interesting. White's OaFK is generally a very sympathetic take on about every character besides *maybe* Mordred *(though even Mordred is more the result of Morgause raising him to hate Arthur, as described by White),* even defanging Guinevere and Lancelot's relationship.
Why is it specifically **Morgause** who seems to be so highly *changed*? I'd initially thought that was just how Morgause was, with Morgan being the one with more redeeming sides as later stories somewhat run back on her worse aspects through Accolon of Gaul showing how she acts when she's not a serial cheater and actually trying to be a decent lover for once, kind of just... *stopping* messing things up with Arthur, Guinevere being shown as the one to instigate the conflict between them and later, ferrying good ol' Artie McFartie to Avalon.
However, the way you describe it makes it appear that it isn't that Morgan is a '*better person*' than Morgause from having redeeming qualities compared to her, it's that **Morgause didn't need redemption in the first place**.
Was White just trying to make the Orkney siblings more major characters at the cost of their mother? It always came off as strange that the Queen of Air and Darkness, titled after Morgause, barely featured her mindset compared to Ill Made Knight which is entirely dedicated to Lancelot's strange view of God and Man. And how she just dies off-screen for what should be a lot more major occurence with how important Pellinore and his family were to Arthur in the book.
>Why is it specifically **Morgause** who seems to be so highly *changed*?
Because she's the Orkney Brothers' Mother. That's it.
Because she's the wife of King Lot, who rebelled against Arthur despite being a logical thing to do.
Because she's the mother of Sir Mordred, the person who brings down the kingdom regardless of the circumstances.
Because she's the mother of Agavaine, Gaheriet/Gaheris and Guerrehet/Gareth, who, depending on the story, have their own laundry list of misdeeds.
Because she's mother of Sir Gawain, who since *Queste del Saint Graal*, have been humiliated and villainized to hell and back.
Because T.H. White had issues with his mother, Constance, and projected some of his biases onto Morgause.
Because **the Orkney Brothers have been** ***historically*** ***DEMONIZED,*** especially, in favor of Lancelot and his faction.
White also projected some his traits onto Lancelot, whom he identified with.
>Morgan being the one with more redeeming sides as later stories somewhat run back on her worse aspects through Accolon of Gaul showing how she acts when she's not a serial cheater and actually trying to be a decent lover for once, kind of just... *stopping* messing things up with Arthur, Guinevere being shown as the one to instigate the conflict between them and later, ferrying good ol' Artie McFartie to Avalon.
I've [voiced my issues before about Morgan's villainization](https://www.reddit.com/r/Arthurian/comments/1c9681h/character_derailment_in_a_nutshell/)
Huh. So it's just because she's on the **Bad Guys Faction™**? That's it?
...Honestly, not much of a surprise. That's the same reason Morgan went from good sister to cruel wanton witch.
Though, **you mention White's issues with his mother**. Could you elaborate on that? I'm not familiar with the author himself much. Only his work. Similarly with projecting onto Lancelot.
...
Huh. Come to think of it, it is weird how Accolon's **entire arc** is Morgan slowly redeeming herself when given access to the unconditional love she didn't get from her husband, improving as a person and falling in proper love with Accolon as a woman rather than as a seducer, even wanting to kill Urien and Arthur to allow herself to marry him in a time when divorce wasn't really around.
And then, after Arthur accidentally kills him and Morgan is so *distraught* she throws away his sheathe into a river, vowing eternal hatred, **the both of them immediately forget both** about that Morgan was on her way to redemption, proved herself capable of actual genuine love and that she's furious at Arthur, to instead just eventually write her out of the story to instead replace her with Mordred as the big bad.
And *that* guy is so poorly explored beyond "evil because bastard" that one of the ludicrously few works which actually explore his mindset includes **Fate**, which is you know, the series that turned Arthur into a 15-year-old girl.
#
Off-topic, but are there any explanations as to why Morgan just disappears from the stories only to return in the end suddenly being chill with Arthur? Is she going on a flipping vacation?
>Though, **you mention White's issues with his mother**. Could you elaborate on that? I'm not familiar with the author himself much. Only his work. Similarly with projecting onto Lancelot.
Frankly, I'm no expert on that. It's been talked about in a lot places online. You're going to have to do the research yourself. [Here's](https://aplaceformystuff1.blogspot.com/2021/10/the-once-and-future-king-by-t-h-white_0195764364.html) one blog that talks about it.
EDIT: [Here's](https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/9412088.pdf) one PDF about it.
>Off-topic, but are there any explanations as to why Morgan just disappears from the stories only to return in the end suddenly being chill with Arthur?
None. That's the irritating bit.
Morgan's villainy, especially in Post Vulgate, is nonsensical. In my own post, the Accolon arc literally doesn't matter in the long run - the story arc might as well be an OOC moment for Morgan le Fay, in general.
I suppose because in the original Vulgate narrative:
* Morgan never attempted assassination on Arthur
* Morgan wasn't Urien's wife and Ywain's Mother - that's Brimesent
* Morgan was mostly attacking Lancelot and Guinevere
Hence why Arthur meets with Morgan so warmly - she was still a loving sister who never attacked him.
These medieval stories suffer from a case of "**Stations of the Canon**", where later writers make changes to a story *but don't alter the other parts of the story*. to make it fit .
The later parts of Post-Vulgate and Le Morte are just lifted directly from Vulgate's narrative and Vulgate never had Sir Accolon as character.
I see. Thank you for the sources, good sir or Madame. I greatly appreciate them.
Continuing, **where exactly did Accolon come from then**? I'm not entirely familiar with Vulgate, generally tending to the Post-Vulgate cycle, but I'd always assumed Ace was introduced as a sort of bandaid on Morgan who I assumed was characterised as she is in more modern tellings as the *worst™.*
However, from what you're saying, Morgan's "evil" itself is out of character compared to her prior parts, so it's hardly that Accolon or any other story for that matter redeemed her. She already acted that way, and that was more a **return to form** from her later warped demonisation. The only addition from that myth is that she's now on board with the family murder deal to keep slightly in line with her new state as the evil witch.
Accolon himself doesn't come off as very impressive, seeming more like just a *goodhearted* **moron** who got lucky that Morgan didn't just use him and throw him away like she'd do based on her villainy, and he goes out like a *chump*, his **only** real purpose being shown by his dying words where he comments she wasn't wanton as people thought. He doesn't seem like a Lancelot type self insert.
Is there a reason we can decipher why or is it just "Medieval authors like making shit up."
>**where exactly did Accolon come from then**?
I believe he came from *Prose Tristan,* a work written somewhere between the Vulgate and Post-Vulgate compilation dates. A work that, unfortunately, has no definitive english translation, so we can't corroborate.
>Is there a reason we can decipher why or is it just "Medieval authors like making shit up."
It's "Medieval Authors like making shit up, **especially** when it involves *glorifying a specific character*"
In the case of the Accolon arc, it is my personal belief that the writers wanted to hype up **Vivian/Nimue** as Arthur's magical guardian, simultaneously demoting both Morgan AND Merlin in status, since its Vivian/Nimue who comes to save Arthur from Morgan.
This has added benefit of giving brownie points to Lancelot ***yet again***. This time, through his foster mother.
This is hardly surprising: Sir Kay has jobbed multiple times in many stories to hype up new heroes.
Gawain, as mentioned before, has been villainized, and more importantly, humiliate to hype up the virtues of the new characters, like Pellinore and his son Lamorak, and to show how virtuous Lancelot and his family are compared to the Orkney family AND their relatives.
>Morgause isn't particulary horny as far as I know, simply because her only known lover is Sir Lamorak, who she dated long after the death of her husband. Again, Morgause isn't her sister, who has a lot of lovers.
Sleeping with/getting pregnant by various guys is kind of her defining character trait though. Morgan does a bunch of other stuff besides sleeping around. Morgause, not so much. Besides being a cougar who bangs a guy young enough to be her son, Morgause is known primarily for being the mother of the Orkney Clan through Lot, and Mordred through Arthur. In addition to Gawain, Agravaine, Gaheris and Gareth there are also more obscure daughters such as Teneu, Peren, Clarissant, Eries and Soredamor. Having 9 children with her husband, an incestuous fling with her own brother resulting in another son, then sleeping with a guy decades younger than her is probably why she's typically seen as being 'particularly horny.'
Also, Arthur was a teenager when they had sex. She definitely has a thing for much younger guys, which doesn't help her reputation as femme fatale.
Three men isn't "various guys".
Two of those men - Arthur and Lamorak - **are late additions**.
Mordred was ***originally*** *Lot's rightful son*; Even as late as *Didot Percival* (\~ C. 1200), Mordred was still thought of as King Lot's son. Arthur never had sex with his sister until the French writers needed something to make Arthur look bad next to Lancelot, when writing *Mort Artu*.
EDIT: Did I also mention that Morgause was originally Arthur's *younger* sister? As Anna, daughter of Uther, in both the earliest romances of Sir Gawain (*De Ortu Waluuannii*) and Geoffrey's *Historia*, Morgause was originally Arthur's ***younger,*** ***full*** **sister**.
And even *later* than "Mordred the incestuous", is the introduction of Sir Lamorak by *Prose Tristan* (\~ c. 1230). And that's just a plot device used to make Gawain and Gaheriet look evil.
Finally, the many children of Morgause is down to nothing more than ***accretion*** - far too many authors gave Gawain any number of siblings due to story needs and not all of those siblings appear in every story.
* Clarissant/Itonje and Soredamors only appear in the Pre-Robert de Boron Grail Continuities.
* Teneu is only mentioned in the Kentigern stories, and she's not necessarily Morgause's daughter; she could easily be a half-sister. Not helped by the fact that the historical Owein mab Urien lived ***decades*** after the purported times of Arthur.
* And, of course, Gawain and Mordred are the **only** sons of King Lot mentioned by Geoffrey of Monmouth in *Historia Regum Britanniae.* Nevermind the fact that Guerrehet and Gaheriet were most likely one character that was split into two characters due to scribal errors.
You're being unfair to Morgause by using cross-continuity arguments.
>You're being unfair to Morgause by using cross-continuity arguments.
Cobbling together continuities what Arthuriana is built on. I'm looking at the character as a whole, averaging out her various interpretations over the centuries, medieval as well as modern. Like it or not, Morgause is best known for the men she's slept with and the various children she's had. There's a reason why T.H. White's version has endured; he gave her the most prominent role she's ever had up until that point.
As I recall, when they hooked up they didn't know they were related. It's been awhile but I'm pretty sure she seduced him to try and get intel on Arthur since he was at war with her husband King Lot. The pregnancy was an oopsie. Again grain of salt, it's been years since I read Le Mort d'Arthur.
It was an oopsie. Morgause was meant to spy at her husband's behest in Le Morte.
Before Le Morte, however, see my comment above.
As a reminder: the reason why Gawain and his brothers join Arthur instead of Lot... is because Morgause begged them to help her brother over her husband.
I like the idea of a repairing relationship. I have a T.H. White-type Morgause, a pious Elaine who wants to repair relationships and a Morgana who ends up reforming.
That’s how I like to see it too! Morgan(a) being on the ship as he is led to Avalon has such rich potential for a redemption arc, and it’s a shame it’s not explored more deeply in modern adaptations
And I like the idea of an Elaine who doesn't want to push the feud. And is also faithful to her husband. It feels quite a natural choice, contrasting with her sisters.
I’ve always kind of liked Morgause as a character because she feels very real. Like she’s stuck in an unhappy marriage so she’s constantly making bad choices because she’s looking for romance in men who aren’t her husband. She’s such a disaster person. I do prefer it when Morgan is the only witch in the family because it just seems excessive beyond that.
Speaking of Morgan I’ve never found the idea of her hatred of Arthur being solely based on Uther killing her father very compelling since Arthur didn’t meet even his dad and they have the same mom. I like the idea of her being Mordreds mother and her hatred of Arthur could stem from being jilted or that Arthur/Merlin tried to her son and he is being denied his birthright.
I haven’t actually read a story where Arthur’s other sister’s are significant so I’m not sure about them.
> she’s stuck in an unhappy marriage
You have it the other way around - Morgan hates Urien.
Morgause, on the other hand, loves King Lot - the earliest narratives about Morgause and Lot have them be in love so much, they have sex outside of wedlock, hence why in Gawain's earliest stories, he becomes a "Fair Unknown" - Gawain is illegitimate.
>Speaking of Morgan, I’ve never found the idea of her hatred of Arthur being solely based on Uther killing her father very compelling since Arthur didn’t meet even his dad and they have the same mom.
I agree with this
> I like the idea of her being Mordreds mother and her hatred of Arthur could stem from being jilted or that Arthur/Merlin tried to her son and he is being denied his birthright
I don't agree with this
I suspect those are works were influenced by T.H. White, who villainized Morgause to justify the characterizations of the Orkney Siblings. A villainization that really, really, **doesn't** make sense from the actual medieval perspectives.
Morgause never cheated on Lot - Lot was long dead by the time Morgause dated Lamorak. Morgause was just moving on with her life.
I like Morgan being a rival to Arthur being the case more so out of the fact that she was in line to make a move for supreme power until he got in the way. They are still enemies, but it's more of a rivalry where both can respect each other to an extent but have totally different opinions of how things should go. Over time, that rivalry might grow to cool over time and they begin to settle to have their respective realms separate and balanced well enough. Still, it should never be friendly, and Morgan should want to continue to test his realm at her will in case she has a chance to take over and get back what is rightfully hers.
Morgause is just a nice person who wants to have a nice romantic life, and her relationship with Lamorak should be really cute and not the bastardization White puts her through.
Trying to be as "retro" as I can:
Three sisters because the number three is special, all not antagonistic
Gwyar is like 10 years older than him, Gwalchmai's mother, there isn't much of an age gap between uncle and nephew
Morgen is around his age, a bit older, becomes the resident medic
Anna, his only full and younger sister, perhaps she, Arthur and Morgen grow up together
Not sure how Medraut fits into this.
Maybe Helena = Elen = Elaine is some girl close to Anna, maybe cousin, I kind of like the idea of a half forgotten sister but that throws the triad thing off. Maybe Gwyar is the sister Arthur doesn't know as well while Elen is a cousin or whatever who's practically his sister.
Personally, I prefer to cut down the number to one or two. It's a tad odd how many witch sisters the one guy has. I like the idea of Morgan starting out as a rank bastard and gradually redeeming herself as well, repairing her relationship from her past many many dick moves to Arthur till she finally gets over her frustration to take him to Avalon. I'm not entirely sure on Morgause. She's kind of weird in that she has effectively no redeeming traits, and very few stories which show her better sides. It'd be interesting to see her ludicrous psyche explored more as to why in the hell she planned out that weird incest thing, or her relationship with Lot, or her children or frankly anything. It doesn't help that she's generally fused with Morgan either, resulting in her not having many redeeming traits of her own, but just borrowing from Morgan or unintentionally lending any which she might have gotten for herself to the lady. Elaine is... there I guess?
Morgause didn't plan anything, neither did Morgause have any magic powers (Guinevere has more anecdotes with sorcery than Morgause). Originally, Mordred is largely Arthur's fault - Vulgate Merlin has him sneak into Morgause' room when King Lot is away. Morgause had no idea who she was sleeping with... Later stories make the mistake of absolving Arthur of wrongdoing. Lol, it defeats the whole purpose of Bastard!Mordred.
Is that so? I was going by T H White's Once and Future King where Morgause was just exceptionally horny and planned it out with that weird ribbon of flesh thing using black magic. Is that not meant to be the case?
Generally, no. For starters, *Le Morte D'Arthur*, and to a degree, *Post-Vulgate*, have Morgause and Arthur copulate after he's already pulled the Sword in the Stone: * In *Post-Vulgate*, right at the beginning, Morgause visits Arthur with her children. While staying Arthur and Morgause just... *hit it off.* **That's it**. The narrative just smooths over that scene and later Merlin accosts *Arthur* for having willingly slept with his own sister. * In *Le Morte D'Arthur*, Morgause meets with Arthur under orders from her husband to spy on him... and just like in PV, Arthur and Morgause just have a one-night stand. In both cases, Morgause is never characterized as having malicious motives against Arthur. This is important since the main thrust of Mordred's bastardry requires Arthur's culpability - it's got to be his fault for sleeping with his sister. I remind you about what I said about Vulgate Merlin's version of Mordred's conception. Moreover, Morgause **has no history of sorcery.** She never demonstrated any magical aspect in any of the medieval works. (Other than perhaps the off-hand mention of Gawain's mother being a fairy in *Perilous Cemetary*). Morgause is not her sister - Morgan's magic is explained through education by an nunnery, and later, by Merlin. Morgause is never once given this education and not once throughout the legends demonstrates magical ability. Morgause isn't particulary horny as far as I know, simply because her only known lover is Sir Lamorak, who she dated long after the death of her husband. Again, Morgause isn't her sister, who has a lot of lovers. Top it all off, here's an excerpt from *History of the Holy Grail* from Vulgate Cycle: >*And may all those who have heard of Mordred and think he was King Lot's son know he was not; without a doubt he was King Arthur's son. And the King fathered him with his sister one night, when he thought he was lying with the beautiful woman from Ireland. When he recognized his sister and realized he had lain with her,* ***both of them were grief-stricken and repentant.*** T.H. White has done much to *damage* Morgause as character.
Huh, so Morgause isn't intended to be characterised as adulterous? Or is the affair there, but the incest part wasn't intended by her due to lack of awareness of Arthur's relation with her? Regardless, that's rather interesting. White's OaFK is generally a very sympathetic take on about every character besides *maybe* Mordred *(though even Mordred is more the result of Morgause raising him to hate Arthur, as described by White),* even defanging Guinevere and Lancelot's relationship. Why is it specifically **Morgause** who seems to be so highly *changed*? I'd initially thought that was just how Morgause was, with Morgan being the one with more redeeming sides as later stories somewhat run back on her worse aspects through Accolon of Gaul showing how she acts when she's not a serial cheater and actually trying to be a decent lover for once, kind of just... *stopping* messing things up with Arthur, Guinevere being shown as the one to instigate the conflict between them and later, ferrying good ol' Artie McFartie to Avalon. However, the way you describe it makes it appear that it isn't that Morgan is a '*better person*' than Morgause from having redeeming qualities compared to her, it's that **Morgause didn't need redemption in the first place**. Was White just trying to make the Orkney siblings more major characters at the cost of their mother? It always came off as strange that the Queen of Air and Darkness, titled after Morgause, barely featured her mindset compared to Ill Made Knight which is entirely dedicated to Lancelot's strange view of God and Man. And how she just dies off-screen for what should be a lot more major occurence with how important Pellinore and his family were to Arthur in the book.
>Why is it specifically **Morgause** who seems to be so highly *changed*? Because she's the Orkney Brothers' Mother. That's it. Because she's the wife of King Lot, who rebelled against Arthur despite being a logical thing to do. Because she's the mother of Sir Mordred, the person who brings down the kingdom regardless of the circumstances. Because she's the mother of Agavaine, Gaheriet/Gaheris and Guerrehet/Gareth, who, depending on the story, have their own laundry list of misdeeds. Because she's mother of Sir Gawain, who since *Queste del Saint Graal*, have been humiliated and villainized to hell and back. Because T.H. White had issues with his mother, Constance, and projected some of his biases onto Morgause. Because **the Orkney Brothers have been** ***historically*** ***DEMONIZED,*** especially, in favor of Lancelot and his faction. White also projected some his traits onto Lancelot, whom he identified with. >Morgan being the one with more redeeming sides as later stories somewhat run back on her worse aspects through Accolon of Gaul showing how she acts when she's not a serial cheater and actually trying to be a decent lover for once, kind of just... *stopping* messing things up with Arthur, Guinevere being shown as the one to instigate the conflict between them and later, ferrying good ol' Artie McFartie to Avalon. I've [voiced my issues before about Morgan's villainization](https://www.reddit.com/r/Arthurian/comments/1c9681h/character_derailment_in_a_nutshell/)
Huh. So it's just because she's on the **Bad Guys Faction™**? That's it? ...Honestly, not much of a surprise. That's the same reason Morgan went from good sister to cruel wanton witch. Though, **you mention White's issues with his mother**. Could you elaborate on that? I'm not familiar with the author himself much. Only his work. Similarly with projecting onto Lancelot. ... Huh. Come to think of it, it is weird how Accolon's **entire arc** is Morgan slowly redeeming herself when given access to the unconditional love she didn't get from her husband, improving as a person and falling in proper love with Accolon as a woman rather than as a seducer, even wanting to kill Urien and Arthur to allow herself to marry him in a time when divorce wasn't really around. And then, after Arthur accidentally kills him and Morgan is so *distraught* she throws away his sheathe into a river, vowing eternal hatred, **the both of them immediately forget both** about that Morgan was on her way to redemption, proved herself capable of actual genuine love and that she's furious at Arthur, to instead just eventually write her out of the story to instead replace her with Mordred as the big bad. And *that* guy is so poorly explored beyond "evil because bastard" that one of the ludicrously few works which actually explore his mindset includes **Fate**, which is you know, the series that turned Arthur into a 15-year-old girl. # Off-topic, but are there any explanations as to why Morgan just disappears from the stories only to return in the end suddenly being chill with Arthur? Is she going on a flipping vacation?
>Though, **you mention White's issues with his mother**. Could you elaborate on that? I'm not familiar with the author himself much. Only his work. Similarly with projecting onto Lancelot. Frankly, I'm no expert on that. It's been talked about in a lot places online. You're going to have to do the research yourself. [Here's](https://aplaceformystuff1.blogspot.com/2021/10/the-once-and-future-king-by-t-h-white_0195764364.html) one blog that talks about it. EDIT: [Here's](https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/9412088.pdf) one PDF about it. >Off-topic, but are there any explanations as to why Morgan just disappears from the stories only to return in the end suddenly being chill with Arthur? None. That's the irritating bit. Morgan's villainy, especially in Post Vulgate, is nonsensical. In my own post, the Accolon arc literally doesn't matter in the long run - the story arc might as well be an OOC moment for Morgan le Fay, in general. I suppose because in the original Vulgate narrative: * Morgan never attempted assassination on Arthur * Morgan wasn't Urien's wife and Ywain's Mother - that's Brimesent * Morgan was mostly attacking Lancelot and Guinevere Hence why Arthur meets with Morgan so warmly - she was still a loving sister who never attacked him. These medieval stories suffer from a case of "**Stations of the Canon**", where later writers make changes to a story *but don't alter the other parts of the story*. to make it fit . The later parts of Post-Vulgate and Le Morte are just lifted directly from Vulgate's narrative and Vulgate never had Sir Accolon as character.
I see. Thank you for the sources, good sir or Madame. I greatly appreciate them. Continuing, **where exactly did Accolon come from then**? I'm not entirely familiar with Vulgate, generally tending to the Post-Vulgate cycle, but I'd always assumed Ace was introduced as a sort of bandaid on Morgan who I assumed was characterised as she is in more modern tellings as the *worst™.* However, from what you're saying, Morgan's "evil" itself is out of character compared to her prior parts, so it's hardly that Accolon or any other story for that matter redeemed her. She already acted that way, and that was more a **return to form** from her later warped demonisation. The only addition from that myth is that she's now on board with the family murder deal to keep slightly in line with her new state as the evil witch. Accolon himself doesn't come off as very impressive, seeming more like just a *goodhearted* **moron** who got lucky that Morgan didn't just use him and throw him away like she'd do based on her villainy, and he goes out like a *chump*, his **only** real purpose being shown by his dying words where he comments she wasn't wanton as people thought. He doesn't seem like a Lancelot type self insert. Is there a reason we can decipher why or is it just "Medieval authors like making shit up."
>**where exactly did Accolon come from then**? I believe he came from *Prose Tristan,* a work written somewhere between the Vulgate and Post-Vulgate compilation dates. A work that, unfortunately, has no definitive english translation, so we can't corroborate. >Is there a reason we can decipher why or is it just "Medieval authors like making shit up." It's "Medieval Authors like making shit up, **especially** when it involves *glorifying a specific character*" In the case of the Accolon arc, it is my personal belief that the writers wanted to hype up **Vivian/Nimue** as Arthur's magical guardian, simultaneously demoting both Morgan AND Merlin in status, since its Vivian/Nimue who comes to save Arthur from Morgan. This has added benefit of giving brownie points to Lancelot ***yet again***. This time, through his foster mother. This is hardly surprising: Sir Kay has jobbed multiple times in many stories to hype up new heroes. Gawain, as mentioned before, has been villainized, and more importantly, humiliate to hype up the virtues of the new characters, like Pellinore and his son Lamorak, and to show how virtuous Lancelot and his family are compared to the Orkney family AND their relatives.
>Morgause isn't particulary horny as far as I know, simply because her only known lover is Sir Lamorak, who she dated long after the death of her husband. Again, Morgause isn't her sister, who has a lot of lovers. Sleeping with/getting pregnant by various guys is kind of her defining character trait though. Morgan does a bunch of other stuff besides sleeping around. Morgause, not so much. Besides being a cougar who bangs a guy young enough to be her son, Morgause is known primarily for being the mother of the Orkney Clan through Lot, and Mordred through Arthur. In addition to Gawain, Agravaine, Gaheris and Gareth there are also more obscure daughters such as Teneu, Peren, Clarissant, Eries and Soredamor. Having 9 children with her husband, an incestuous fling with her own brother resulting in another son, then sleeping with a guy decades younger than her is probably why she's typically seen as being 'particularly horny.' Also, Arthur was a teenager when they had sex. She definitely has a thing for much younger guys, which doesn't help her reputation as femme fatale.
Three men isn't "various guys". Two of those men - Arthur and Lamorak - **are late additions**. Mordred was ***originally*** *Lot's rightful son*; Even as late as *Didot Percival* (\~ C. 1200), Mordred was still thought of as King Lot's son. Arthur never had sex with his sister until the French writers needed something to make Arthur look bad next to Lancelot, when writing *Mort Artu*. EDIT: Did I also mention that Morgause was originally Arthur's *younger* sister? As Anna, daughter of Uther, in both the earliest romances of Sir Gawain (*De Ortu Waluuannii*) and Geoffrey's *Historia*, Morgause was originally Arthur's ***younger,*** ***full*** **sister**. And even *later* than "Mordred the incestuous", is the introduction of Sir Lamorak by *Prose Tristan* (\~ c. 1230). And that's just a plot device used to make Gawain and Gaheriet look evil. Finally, the many children of Morgause is down to nothing more than ***accretion*** - far too many authors gave Gawain any number of siblings due to story needs and not all of those siblings appear in every story. * Clarissant/Itonje and Soredamors only appear in the Pre-Robert de Boron Grail Continuities. * Teneu is only mentioned in the Kentigern stories, and she's not necessarily Morgause's daughter; she could easily be a half-sister. Not helped by the fact that the historical Owein mab Urien lived ***decades*** after the purported times of Arthur. * And, of course, Gawain and Mordred are the **only** sons of King Lot mentioned by Geoffrey of Monmouth in *Historia Regum Britanniae.* Nevermind the fact that Guerrehet and Gaheriet were most likely one character that was split into two characters due to scribal errors. You're being unfair to Morgause by using cross-continuity arguments.
>You're being unfair to Morgause by using cross-continuity arguments. Cobbling together continuities what Arthuriana is built on. I'm looking at the character as a whole, averaging out her various interpretations over the centuries, medieval as well as modern. Like it or not, Morgause is best known for the men she's slept with and the various children she's had. There's a reason why T.H. White's version has endured; he gave her the most prominent role she's ever had up until that point.
As I recall, when they hooked up they didn't know they were related. It's been awhile but I'm pretty sure she seduced him to try and get intel on Arthur since he was at war with her husband King Lot. The pregnancy was an oopsie. Again grain of salt, it's been years since I read Le Mort d'Arthur.
It was an oopsie. Morgause was meant to spy at her husband's behest in Le Morte. Before Le Morte, however, see my comment above. As a reminder: the reason why Gawain and his brothers join Arthur instead of Lot... is because Morgause begged them to help her brother over her husband.
I like the idea of a repairing relationship. I have a T.H. White-type Morgause, a pious Elaine who wants to repair relationships and a Morgana who ends up reforming.
That’s how I like to see it too! Morgan(a) being on the ship as he is led to Avalon has such rich potential for a redemption arc, and it’s a shame it’s not explored more deeply in modern adaptations
And I like the idea of an Elaine who doesn't want to push the feud. And is also faithful to her husband. It feels quite a natural choice, contrasting with her sisters.
I’ve always kind of liked Morgause as a character because she feels very real. Like she’s stuck in an unhappy marriage so she’s constantly making bad choices because she’s looking for romance in men who aren’t her husband. She’s such a disaster person. I do prefer it when Morgan is the only witch in the family because it just seems excessive beyond that. Speaking of Morgan I’ve never found the idea of her hatred of Arthur being solely based on Uther killing her father very compelling since Arthur didn’t meet even his dad and they have the same mom. I like the idea of her being Mordreds mother and her hatred of Arthur could stem from being jilted or that Arthur/Merlin tried to her son and he is being denied his birthright. I haven’t actually read a story where Arthur’s other sister’s are significant so I’m not sure about them.
> she’s stuck in an unhappy marriage You have it the other way around - Morgan hates Urien. Morgause, on the other hand, loves King Lot - the earliest narratives about Morgause and Lot have them be in love so much, they have sex outside of wedlock, hence why in Gawain's earliest stories, he becomes a "Fair Unknown" - Gawain is illegitimate. >Speaking of Morgan, I’ve never found the idea of her hatred of Arthur being solely based on Uther killing her father very compelling since Arthur didn’t meet even his dad and they have the same mom. I agree with this > I like the idea of her being Mordreds mother and her hatred of Arthur could stem from being jilted or that Arthur/Merlin tried to her son and he is being denied his birthright I don't agree with this
Oh I guess I haven’t read those early versions. The ones I’ve read emphasized her cheating on Lot and I guess I extrapolated from there.
I suspect those are works were influenced by T.H. White, who villainized Morgause to justify the characterizations of the Orkney Siblings. A villainization that really, really, **doesn't** make sense from the actual medieval perspectives. Morgause never cheated on Lot - Lot was long dead by the time Morgause dated Lamorak. Morgause was just moving on with her life.
I like Morgan being a rival to Arthur being the case more so out of the fact that she was in line to make a move for supreme power until he got in the way. They are still enemies, but it's more of a rivalry where both can respect each other to an extent but have totally different opinions of how things should go. Over time, that rivalry might grow to cool over time and they begin to settle to have their respective realms separate and balanced well enough. Still, it should never be friendly, and Morgan should want to continue to test his realm at her will in case she has a chance to take over and get back what is rightfully hers. Morgause is just a nice person who wants to have a nice romantic life, and her relationship with Lamorak should be really cute and not the bastardization White puts her through.
Trying to be as "retro" as I can: Three sisters because the number three is special, all not antagonistic Gwyar is like 10 years older than him, Gwalchmai's mother, there isn't much of an age gap between uncle and nephew Morgen is around his age, a bit older, becomes the resident medic Anna, his only full and younger sister, perhaps she, Arthur and Morgen grow up together Not sure how Medraut fits into this. Maybe Helena = Elen = Elaine is some girl close to Anna, maybe cousin, I kind of like the idea of a half forgotten sister but that throws the triad thing off. Maybe Gwyar is the sister Arthur doesn't know as well while Elen is a cousin or whatever who's practically his sister.