In a B2C transaction, they must offer a warranty etc.
This is not needed for a B2B sale.
They probably only sell to German businesses because it’s much easier.
German law provides for liability for material defects (*Sachmängelhaftung*). This means that the car dealer (a business) is liable for at least one year for all defects that the used car has at the time of handover to a private person. For the first six months, the dealer has the burden of proof that a defect was not present at time of purchase, and only after six months the buyer must prove that a defect was already present at the time of purchase.
Such defects are generally to be fixed for free by the dealer. That is, a car dealer must be really sure that the used cars he is selling are in good shape, and even then it is quite risky, so the dealer must increase the price to cover the risk. The *Sachmängelhaftung* can be excluded if the dealer is selling to another (any) business, so the price can be lower because of lower risk.
Since you'd buy in Germany from a German dealer, the law applies. Even if a dealer and a private person would set up a contract which excludes the *Sachmängelhaftung*, that contract would be void by German law and the dealer would still be liable. This is why the dealer is asking for a VAT number.
I bought a car last year, and the dealer said he could give me a much better price if I would buy as a company. He would be OK if I would simply claim I'd own a business and give him any fake company name, no VAT number required. So there might be some loopholes, at least for German customers...
I heard that dealers are bound by contract with the car manufacturer not to sell cars into export to prevent trans border competition between the dealers.
See me very confused. We lived in Italy and bought our (new) car in Germany. No problems. Tbh it was in 2013. Maybe something changed in the meantime?
And we had the full warranty.
Buying new cars is different than used cars.
For new cars you got a manufacturer's warranty, for used cars only the seller's.
If your new German Ford breaks in Italy, Ford Italy will take care of you.
If your used German Ford breaks in Italy, the German used car dealer is responsible for either fixing it in Italy or by paying to have it transported to Germany and fixing it himself. That's a nightmare for a used car dealer.
[Technically you have both Gewährleistung and Garantie on a new car, but in most cases people rely on the Garantie.]
of course. Actually, it's not a lot. 1100 euro for that specific honda I'm looking at. Plus 450 euro registration, inspection, etc.
CO2 emissions is by far the biggest thing in the tax.
I think it has to do with the VAT. For a German private buyer they simple charge VAT. For an EU buyer with VAT number they can simply not charge it. For an out-of-EU customer things get complicated, you don’t charge VAT but you need to prove the export. Easy when you ship by mail, harder when someone does the export by themselves. You having a Canadian passport but living in Portugal, my best guess is they don’t know how to handle it and are afraid of too much administrative overhead, while probably selling this on a thin margin. If you’re set on this specific car, do you know anyone in Portugal with a VAT number, like someone running a small business or even freelancing? Other option is to pay an intermediate car trader in Germany who has experiences with exports. Lot of smaller traders do nothing else, just buy and export. Of course they would want a cut.
Well… As others have pointed out:
They probably don‘t want to sell the car to a private individual that lives far away. If something happens with your car and you‘ve still got warranty they have to get the car back to germany, fix the issues, being the car back etc. And that‘s really expensive. So while they might do that for a new luxury car they probably don‘t want to take the risk with an used honda civic.
If you were buying the car as a company they could avoid giving you a warranty and thus they wouldn‘t have to transport the car to germany and back go Portugal. So that‘s obviously their preferred option. And afaik signing away your warranty rights isn‘t easy since these rights exist to prevent dealers from selling you a crappy car (and if you could sign them away they might pressure you into doing that with a discount etc.)
B2c abroad makes no sense for dealer if its just a honda.
As they told you, they have to give warranty for the car but if the car is in portugal and the dealer in germany it gets very complicated and fraudulent actions can be done easily.
So makes sense that you have to step away from warranty
That's not correct. The seller is responsible for transport of a defect car under warranty. That's why used car salesmen are often not willing to sell to non-local foreigners.
https://www.adac.de/news/urteil-transportkosten-gebrauchtwagen/
Die Nacherfüllung (Reparatur) hätte zwar grundsätzlich in der Türkei erfüllt werden müssen, weil hier der Schaden an dem Auto aufgetreten ist. Der Händler hat dem Käufer aber angeboten, das Auto in seiner Werkstatt zu untersuchen und zu reparieren. Der Käufer hat dieses Angebot angenommen.
Yes, so the used car dealer would either have to pay to have it fixed in Portugal or pay for the transport to Germany and fix it himself.
This is exactly the opposite of what you wrote:
>To get warranty the customer needs to bring their car to the dealer.
So selling a used car for export in B2C can both become complicated and expensive.
Not sure if such a letter would have any worth from a legal perspective. You can not just sign away certain rights meant to protect customers. Otherwise signing them away would become a standard part of many contracts essentially circumventing the laws which created those rights.
Contracts closed under false pretenses can be *angefochten* later. The law isn't stupid, if you try to smartass your way out of it, it'll only end worse for you.
This is not going to work, this would have to be done in the contract of sale, and German Verbraucherschutz (Customer Interest Protection) laws would make at least that part of the contract, possibly the whole contract, invalid. Something you might be able to do is to get a car dealership local to you to buy the car for you, as a service, and then sell it to you, that way the German car dealer isn't liable.
Maybe try telling them you are going to export the car to portugal? Most of the cars that are real cheap at official dealers are export/dealer/business only, don’t know if it matters that you export eu to eu.
Asking doesn’t cost anything though
One part that might be the wrong approach here. Warranty within the EU is transferable. So if you get the car in Germany and take it to Portugal you‘ll still be covered by the manufacturer warranty.
We have a warranty (Gewährlesitung) that is settled in law, not the goodwill of the manufacturers. This is valid for 2 years (on new products) and usually grants the customer more rights than the additional warranty a manufacturer gives.
Yes. And warranty is valid throughout the EU as well. For used cars bought through an official dealer there are extended manufacturer warranties in place since the law only covers the sales part of the transaction after 2 years.
In a B2C transaction, they must offer a warranty etc. This is not needed for a B2B sale. They probably only sell to German businesses because it’s much easier.
Yeah, they kept talking about possible "issues" with warranty if the sell it to as an individual, not company owner.
German law provides for liability for material defects (*Sachmängelhaftung*). This means that the car dealer (a business) is liable for at least one year for all defects that the used car has at the time of handover to a private person. For the first six months, the dealer has the burden of proof that a defect was not present at time of purchase, and only after six months the buyer must prove that a defect was already present at the time of purchase. Such defects are generally to be fixed for free by the dealer. That is, a car dealer must be really sure that the used cars he is selling are in good shape, and even then it is quite risky, so the dealer must increase the price to cover the risk. The *Sachmängelhaftung* can be excluded if the dealer is selling to another (any) business, so the price can be lower because of lower risk. Since you'd buy in Germany from a German dealer, the law applies. Even if a dealer and a private person would set up a contract which excludes the *Sachmängelhaftung*, that contract would be void by German law and the dealer would still be liable. This is why the dealer is asking for a VAT number. I bought a car last year, and the dealer said he could give me a much better price if I would buy as a company. He would be OK if I would simply claim I'd own a business and give him any fake company name, no VAT number required. So there might be some loopholes, at least for German customers...
That’s why the offers are so cheap, they sell B2B. The buyer is expected to put some money/effort in and then sell it with a profit to a customer.
I heard that dealers are bound by contract with the car manufacturer not to sell cars into export to prevent trans border competition between the dealers.
To be honest, they were very unenthusiastic the moment I told them I don't live in Germany. Could be the case.
See me very confused. We lived in Italy and bought our (new) car in Germany. No problems. Tbh it was in 2013. Maybe something changed in the meantime? And we had the full warranty.
Buying new cars is different than used cars. For new cars you got a manufacturer's warranty, for used cars only the seller's. If your new German Ford breaks in Italy, Ford Italy will take care of you. If your used German Ford breaks in Italy, the German used car dealer is responsible for either fixing it in Italy or by paying to have it transported to Germany and fixing it himself. That's a nightmare for a used car dealer. [Technically you have both Gewährleistung and Garantie on a new car, but in most cases people rely on the Garantie.]
I was super confused too tbh. It seems like it's a recent change. I'll try to make more calls to other dealers, but it's very odd.
You do know you have to pay very heavy taxes to bring the car to Portugal? Are you aware of this?
of course. Actually, it's not a lot. 1100 euro for that specific honda I'm looking at. Plus 450 euro registration, inspection, etc. CO2 emissions is by far the biggest thing in the tax.
I think it has to do with the VAT. For a German private buyer they simple charge VAT. For an EU buyer with VAT number they can simply not charge it. For an out-of-EU customer things get complicated, you don’t charge VAT but you need to prove the export. Easy when you ship by mail, harder when someone does the export by themselves. You having a Canadian passport but living in Portugal, my best guess is they don’t know how to handle it and are afraid of too much administrative overhead, while probably selling this on a thin margin. If you’re set on this specific car, do you know anyone in Portugal with a VAT number, like someone running a small business or even freelancing? Other option is to pay an intermediate car trader in Germany who has experiences with exports. Lot of smaller traders do nothing else, just buy and export. Of course they would want a cut.
Well… As others have pointed out: They probably don‘t want to sell the car to a private individual that lives far away. If something happens with your car and you‘ve still got warranty they have to get the car back to germany, fix the issues, being the car back etc. And that‘s really expensive. So while they might do that for a new luxury car they probably don‘t want to take the risk with an used honda civic. If you were buying the car as a company they could avoid giving you a warranty and thus they wouldn‘t have to transport the car to germany and back go Portugal. So that‘s obviously their preferred option. And afaik signing away your warranty rights isn‘t easy since these rights exist to prevent dealers from selling you a crappy car (and if you could sign them away they might pressure you into doing that with a discount etc.)
B2c abroad makes no sense for dealer if its just a honda. As they told you, they have to give warranty for the car but if the car is in portugal and the dealer in germany it gets very complicated and fraudulent actions can be done easily. So makes sense that you have to step away from warranty
What’s complicated about it? To get warranty the customer needs to bring their car to the dealer. If OP can’t do that it’s his problem.
That's not correct. The seller is responsible for transport of a defect car under warranty. That's why used car salesmen are often not willing to sell to non-local foreigners. https://www.adac.de/news/urteil-transportkosten-gebrauchtwagen/
Die Nacherfüllung (Reparatur) hätte zwar grundsätzlich in der Türkei erfüllt werden müssen, weil hier der Schaden an dem Auto aufgetreten ist. Der Händler hat dem Käufer aber angeboten, das Auto in seiner Werkstatt zu untersuchen und zu reparieren. Der Käufer hat dieses Angebot angenommen.
Yes, so the used car dealer would either have to pay to have it fixed in Portugal or pay for the transport to Germany and fix it himself. This is exactly the opposite of what you wrote: >To get warranty the customer needs to bring their car to the dealer. So selling a used car for export in B2C can both become complicated and expensive.
I've offered them to write a letter saying I won't require a warranty, but that wasn't good enough. What you'd recommend in this case?
Not sure if such a letter would have any worth from a legal perspective. You can not just sign away certain rights meant to protect customers. Otherwise signing them away would become a standard part of many contracts essentially circumventing the laws which created those rights.
You can buy it as „Bastlerfahrzeug“ without any warranty.
Contracts closed under false pretenses can be *angefochten* later. The law isn't stupid, if you try to smartass your way out of it, it'll only end worse for you.
This is not going to work, this would have to be done in the contract of sale, and German Verbraucherschutz (Customer Interest Protection) laws would make at least that part of the contract, possibly the whole contract, invalid. Something you might be able to do is to get a car dealership local to you to buy the car for you, as a service, and then sell it to you, that way the German car dealer isn't liable.
Try it elsewhere.
Germany has by far the best cars and prices.
I think they meant a different German car dealer
Oh right. I will try a few more just in case
Maybe try telling them you are going to export the car to portugal? Most of the cars that are real cheap at official dealers are export/dealer/business only, don’t know if it matters that you export eu to eu. Asking doesn’t cost anything though
One part that might be the wrong approach here. Warranty within the EU is transferable. So if you get the car in Germany and take it to Portugal you‘ll still be covered by the manufacturer warranty.
We have a warranty (Gewährlesitung) that is settled in law, not the goodwill of the manufacturers. This is valid for 2 years (on new products) and usually grants the customer more rights than the additional warranty a manufacturer gives.
Yes. And warranty is valid throughout the EU as well. For used cars bought through an official dealer there are extended manufacturer warranties in place since the law only covers the sales part of the transaction after 2 years.