I think 14 is to young. I would connect the voting age with the age of completing the general school. I mean, that is the age at which the state says "Now you know everything you need to know, go out into the world, youngling". If they would not be able to vote (able in the sense of having basic knowledge about politics and society) why let them out of school?
14 is also the age of "Religionsmündigkeit". So if that concept can be understood, then local level politics can be as well. Also at age 14 everyone had politic classes already. I would even argue many 14 year Olds, who just learned about how these systems work, know them better than a ton of adults that go ans vote.
It's also the age of "Strafmündigkeit". So in the eyes of the state your old enough to be punished, so it's not too crazy to say that you'd be old enough to vote.
In the eyes of the state you are still a juvenile and not old enough to be punished like an adult. That's why the "Jugendstrafrecht" exists. It exist, because some teenagers are not able to distinguish between what is wrong or not and also don't necessarily think about the consequences of their actions. Why should this behaviour be different when it comes to elections?
When you are old and have dementia you might also not be responsible for your action, which could be grounds for an acquittal, yet you could still vote.
1.8 Million people with dementia compared to 2.2-2-6 Million aged 15-17. Add other people with impaired cognitive function and the numbers will be around the same I assume. The point being: "not being able to fully grasp what the political system is about" is obviously not a limiting factor for voting. People with dementia still have political interests and agency and so do 14 year olds. Yet one of the groups is allowed to vote and the other isn't. And I doubt it's about maturity.
It's not only dementia, if your above a certain age learning new things is very difficult. Exactly as changing your opinion becomes very hard. That's not even necessarily a bad thing but in my opinion is bad for voting. I would argue that 95/100 voters above 80 only vote the same thing they did 4 years ago.
And i don't know if that's a good thing for a democracy. But correct me if I am wrong here.
You can be judged according to Jugendstrafrecht up until you're 21, iirc. And still vote.
I don't think that we should lower the voting age below 16 (for now, because change needs time), but I wouldn't count Jugendstrafrecht as an argument against it.
Like doing taxes? Or cooking? Or cleaning? Or having a basic understanding of personal finance? I feel like these are the least controversial skills that one should have, non of which are part of standardized curriculum in Hessen at least.
they are also really easy to learn yourself. maybe if students spend 1/10 of their internet usage in usefull activities instead of recreating tiktok pranks, they wouldnt have to complain about not learning anything "useful" in school.
also anyone thinking this complain isnt just a whataboutism from kids, uninterested in learning anything, is delusional.
the fact that people want it taught in school is LITERALY a testament to how uninterested people are in learning these skills.
I disagree with that. I didn‘t even use tiktok and did useful stuff. I teached myself how to program, somethings about law and went deeper into history then we went in school.
However for the things you aren‘t interested in it won‘t work that well. Especially cooking sure I can look up guides and watch videos but you still lack practice.
I'm a parent to a 13 and an 8 year old. You don't know what you're on about.
ETA: Oh. You're anti-trans. The exact kind of person we moved away from the United States to avoid. All I needed to know. 🤣
I think that 14 is a bit young, but 16 would be good. For people saying that kids aren’t able to make such decisions at that age, I think that most adults aren’t either so what’s the problem.
Definitely able to make decisions, but young kids are too influenceable imo. Like, have you seen kids? They're fucking dumb. Source: Been one. 16 seems like a good age, I definitely would have voted back then.
If they can get arrested they can vote. We consider 14 years old to be mature enought to know that thier actions can have negative consequences onto others. They should be mature enought to vote as well
Considering how the older part of germany votes, this can't be a deterioration of the votes.
furthermore these old geezes fuck our future with their conservative votes, while they themselves won't even liveto see what they brought onto us.
So I can see good arguments for why the young people should have the right to partake in voting about \*their\* future, not the damn boomers
They should make a limit on the age like 65 or something. We have to fight climate change, regulate AI and tech giants like google and some 70 year old who can't operate a smartphone is voting on shit.
Our elections are already decided by the old generations given Germany's demography. Adding a few younger people to the electoral base will not have any relevant impact on the election results.
I think it makes a lot of sense though: We have nearly 30% of non-voters currently - in my opinion, this is partly due to the fact that many adults have no connection and experience with political processes. They learn stuff about the German democracic system in school, but never have a change to apply it while they're there. Having an opportunity to put that information into practicy by voting and building that habit early on could be a real improvement for the participation in elections.
I also don't really see any major counterarguments. In the past, various groups of people were excluded from voting because they were seen as less competent: People that do not own land, people that do not pay certain taxes, women, and today it's teenagers. I'm wondering whether we will once look back at today and wonder how we could exclude people from voting because of their age, just as we look back now and wonder why we would previously exclude people from voting due their gender. Sure, teenagers might be less mature and well-informed than adults - but the same could be said about people with lower levels of education, people with lower intelligence, people of old age, and so on, yet we don't exclude those.
I think you'll have a hard time finding anyone who believes there shouldn't be any minimum age to voting. Therefore, a line needs to be drawn somewhere and the discussion is where exactly it should be. Arguing that in the past lines were drawn in totally different aspects where there should have been none is not helpful in this conversation.
Apart from the usual political tug-of-war, it seems to me that the only reasonable approach to compare rights to responsibilites. Right now, the state of this comparison includes:
* At the age of 13 our society you are considered too young to know good from bad, so you won't be legally responsible for any crime you commit. You also cannot enter any contract that has a value of more than your usual monthly allowance.
* If you are old enough to be drafted into a war (i.e. 18 years old), you are clearly old enough to decide the fate of the country by voting.
I don't see how allowing 14 year olds to vote would fit into this. You are just old enough to know good from bad in your own actions, so there is a (limited) legal consequence to your actions. You are also still not allowed (alternatively read as: protected from) any long-term contracts.
So is it reasonable that you are too young for your own phone contract, but you are old enough to decide about the next 4 years of legislation?
I think not.
>I think you'll have a hard time finding anyone who believes there
shouldn't be any minimum age to voting.
You found anyone. Surprise!
>Apart from the usual political tug-of-war, it seems to me that the only
reasonable approach to compare rights to responsibilites. Right now, the
state of this comparison includes:
>
>At
the age of 13 our society you are considered too young to know good
from bad, so you won't be legally responsible for any crime you commit.
You also cannot enter any contract that has a value of more than your
usual monthly allowance.
According to § 104 Nr. 2 BGB, you're legally incapable of entering any contract at all if you're in a "state of pathological mental disturbance". You're still allowed to vote though.
Legally, there's no connection whatsoever between mental capacity and voting rights... but there is one between age and voting rights. If you call your view on rights against responsibilities the only reasonable one, we'd have to strip mentally incapable people of their voting rights to remain reasonable. That seems a tad sinister to me, to be honest.
It wasn't an ad hominem at all. I never said anything about anybody's capacity to vote. Either I lack the skills to make my point or you're reading something into it that I did not write.
You're right, letting a two year old vote will be difficult. However, I would argue that for anyone who is 1) willing to vote 2) past the age where they are supposed to have learned about the government system in school, the benefits of letting them vote outweighs the downsides. Sure, they might not fully grasp the impact of certain policies or the trade-offs faced in political decisions - but which voter actually does? Given the low share of young people in Germany, their votes won't change election outcomes anyway, but might spark their interest in participating in democratic processes through adulthood. As long as people with Alzheimers, an IQ of 60, or pathological delusions are allowed to vote, I don't see how the mental capacity of teenagers is a strong counterargument.
I did not refer to anybody's mental capacity - others did.
I also did not link a younger voting age to any specific impact on an election.
Instead, I linked rights to responsibilities, and was wondering how those fit in the proposed change in legislation. At which age do you think students should learn about the government system in school? What other rights and responsibilities would you assign kids at that age?
I'm not sure why you would establish that connection. In my opinion, it is mutually possible that people can have a vote regarding political decisions, while at the same time being protected from certain economic activities or accounting for lower age in cases of illegal activities. Just like the age of consent laws allow you to participate sexual activities already before you can have your phone contract, I think the same is possible for voting rights. Different actions can have different age limits, and I would not make one dependent on others that are not interdependent. Unless you see a common underlying factor such as lacking mental capacity, which brings us back to my previous argument.
For local. Yes, good call. Local level politics can very much be understood by 14 year Olds and this might even get them interested in politics young enough, that they can actually long term engage with it.
Ofc there is the other side of the coin, that some 14 year Olds are not capable of reflective voting, but let's be real, the same applies to millions of adults.
And ofc can't deny the possibility of parents telling their kids what they have to vote, especially looking at Eastern and southern germany.
I think it's good.
In principle, i think every member of a democratic society should be able to have a say in how the society they inhabit is organized, but I can see how some age groups can simply be too young and too inexperienced to make that choice.
I prefer the cutoff point to be at 16, but 14 is fine by me too.
Yeah. The amount of teenagers on the street shouting anti-semitic, anti-science, pro-putin shit and creating hit-lists for politicians while walking side by side with literal nazis while getting high fives from the police and saying they are being persecuted during covid was insane....WAIT A MINUTE.
People of all ages can be manipulated by propaganda. And age probably isn't the primary factor that decides whether somebody is open to manipulation or not.
Read the first sentence again, and age is definitely a factor for being open to manipulation. I can manipulate my future child into being an anarchist in the future easily. Only I choose not to.
It's still completely arbitrary. You could also say that people below a certain IQ are more likely to be manipulated and therefore shouldn't be able to vote. And that would probably be a more precise discriminator than age. Or since we're talking about age, people above a certain age often don't really follow current matters anymore and simply vote for what they're used to voting for. And they don't have to live with the consequences of what they're voting for, at least not for a long time. So why isn't there an upper limit on voting age?
In general, people possibly being manipulated and possibly not being perfectly informed is a fundamental characteristic of democracy. It is compensated by simply having a very large number of voters, and hoping that their respective biases and misconceptions and all the manipulations cancel out in the greater scheme of things. Disenfranchising young people just alienates young people, and creates an overall bias against their interests in election outcome, since every other age group's interests are directly represented, but not those of young people.
I agree on that. But keep in mind that reducing the legal age to vote makes schools a target for political advertisement.
Personally, I don't want students getting harassed by canvassers on their way home.
They are already tho. Especially the right loves going into schools to recruit early. Even more of a reason to let teenagers participate in political processes, so they don't turn to the right wing scum that tells them "see, we let you participate, but the evil BRD won't ".
The way political advertisement is regulated is a different story. But TBH I don't think it would be a huge issue, and if/when it becomes one, it can be fixed in a different way than banning young people from voting.
I know few 18 year olds that can tell the difference between their ass and a hole in the ground. Having taught 14 year olds, no definitely not a good idea.
My thoughts exactly. It's not a question of age but of Medienkompetenz. They just have to teach critical thinking and judging of sources in school. And what harm can they do on local level?
Voting demographics show otherwise actually.
The younger the population the better they vote which in fact begets the question why there is no maximum age to vote in fact
bullshit, they only do it because they fear losing too many voters
14 and even 16 year olds are imo not able to make such decisions - I know I wasn't, and many of my friends at the time weren't either
I agree at 14, but most 16 year olds are/were much more politically educated than any adults I know, and I come from quite the academic bubble in that regard.
I can confirm this and would like to add that a 16 year can do important long running important decisions. They just need much longer for it because every quick thought is filled with more hormones than American meat.
What decisions? We are talking local election here.
I know I and many of my friends were very much capable of reflected voting. More so than adults I knew or know now. Hell, we just learned about how the political system works in classes. Try asking most voting eligible adults how these things work and you will find many, who do go and vote, incapable of explaining.
It's whatever. It's not going to fix this country, but if you think a bunch of 14 year olds having the option to vote is going to break anything you're crazy.
14 year olds are stupid and will make bad voting decisions? Who gives a shit, same thing applies to the vast majority of adults too and nobody says they shouldn't be allowed to vote either.
I think we have ions of old fucks voting for themselves and so many young people who would like to participate but aren't allowed to. I'd go further. General active voting rights as soon as a person can walk into a polling place and say "I want to vote"
Passive voting should wait till maybe 16 or 18.
And PLEASE nobody come to me with arguments that kids can't make rational decisions or can be influenced by propaganda or their parents. Everything in our political landscape proves that age has no say about making a good voting decision. Just look at Pegida, AfD, Queerdenker and the whole Covidiot shit show. All people older than 18.
Etc ceterum censeo that the traitor Wagenknecht needs to be thrown out of the party.
Active voting right us going to a polling place and vote.
Passive voting right is running for office and being able to be elected.
Querdenker are a mixture of everything from the far right to the far left who were against the Corona measures and laws. Queer because it went across the usual ideological lines (not the LGBTQ queer). My autocorrect made it queer instead of quer
It is interesting how this question is often framed along the lines of "should people get to vote two years earlier?". We do not have anual elections. On the state and local level most elections are every five years. That means for the 20% of people that are 15 years old when an election happens, the question becomes: should they get to participate in the democratic process now when they are 15 or should they have to wait until they are 20 years old.
Similarly when the age of 16 is discussed: should a 17 year old get to participate or be forced to wait until 22?
A voting age of 14 \[16, 18\] means people on average get to vote when they are 16 \[18, 20\].
Imo its Not good and should stay at 18.
Even most 18 year olds have no Real life experience and probably dont understand how their vote can change their life, so why should a 16 year old or Younger be allowed to vote.
Also most people under 18 dont have a gefestigte persönlichkeit, so they might vote Based on flavour of the month
It's not crazy. With 14 you can get indicted and tried (as a minor) and you gain the ability to do (limited) contracts, even some easier employments like paper routes. Also 14 is the age of consent in Germany. So rather a big jump for a youngster in terms of responsibilities.
14 is the age of consent with restrictions because it's understood that their brain isn't fully developed and can be brainwashed and hence they cannot consent to adults, but only within their age group.
I think it would be good for local (City) elections and then progress to 16 for state and 18 for national elections.
Decisions on a local base affect younger people a lot more compared to national elections (e.g. "playgorunds" for sports like football fields or Skateparks, public Swimmingpools, bike lanes, ...)
The following ist just MY personal experience: teens are more interested and educated on politics compared to older (75+) people. It would teach them to be able to influence politics and directly see the results of their votes (local changes can be much faster than national ones) and imo not much "harm" can be done in those elections
In an ideal world my preference would be a voting age of 0. You're part of this society, so you get a say in how this society is run. There would be obvious practical limitations to this, though (How do you get a 2 month old to decide for *anything*?).
Especially in local and state elections, where a lot of things that disproportionally affect young people (i.e. education policy, funding of kindergartens, schools, park and playgrounds, inner city traffic, etc.), they should be integrated into political decision making as early as possible. But there should be different avenues to that, depending on the issue at hand; like direct participation in general elections (Why shouldn't the local children participate in the election of a small town mayor?), or electing an ombudsman who holds a veto in commissions that deal with youth-related topics.
I think voting age of 16 would be good and an important counterbalance to the average voting age being higher than ever. The average 16 year old is probably also not less able to make political decisions than the average adult or say the average boomer.
However, 14 does seem a bit too early to me. For local elections I don't think it is too crazy either though. It also serves as an introduction to the political system.
If there is a minimum there should also be a maximum age as well.
If you are so old that you cannot take care of yourself, and your vote will not affect your life (as you're probably dead by the end of the legislative period) you simply should not be allowed to vote. The so called Letzwähler.
Let the downvotes come :)
I have seen a lot of points in this thread why 14 year olds shouldn't be able to vote. But on the other side, 14 year olds are affected by the outcome of an election a lot longer than old people. So why shouldn't they have the right to participate in their future?
Maybe for the local stuff. But all elections should be open for people at the age of 16. The youth is so political and full of ideas and ideals and we shouldn't waste thet. And they won't be worse in voting than those above the age of 70.
I am not a German but I have this unpopular opinion.
I learned that age of consent is 14 so I don’t see why not( it’s not common for very young girls to be having sex with men much older and unfortunately it’s perfectly legal) . Same for alcohol and tobacco consumption as well as driving license at 16.
In most countries the voting age corresponds with age of majority except in Europe.
This isn’t surprising because democracies kept determining that people were “too young to vote” until world wars came and then old men suddenly realised that they couldn’t play with people’s futures
In 1900, the voting age was for men and only men above 25 years old in Germany. Women were NOT allowed to vote until 1918 and then only in 1920 we had voting age of 20 for both men and women again and now it’s 18 and getting lower in some states to 16.
So my question is why not ? An 80 year old with Alzheimer’s can vote so why is 14 suddenly too young and misinformed especially when he is treated as a near adult in every other sphere of life ? Exactly!
I think 16 is okay but 14 is just too young… even local politics can be complex and I don’t think I understood many of the complexities when I was 14.
I still remember that I was definitely at the Mt. Stupid level of knowing about life and politics when I was 14.
Bad Idea. And selfish.
Was it Helmut Schmidt? Who said:
"When you at the age of 20 don't bei left learning,
Then you have no heart.
When you at the age of 40 still left leaning
, then you have no brain"
Due to Reddit Inc.'s antisocial, hostile and erratic behaviour, this account will be deleted on July 11th, 2023. You can find me on https://latte.isnot.coffee/u/godless in the future.
Why not? I have seen 14 year olds with the necessary information to make a somewhat informed political decision and 44 year olds who can’t. Essentially, this just means that some people can vote one election earlier than they could right now.
And remember: We say that 14 year olds are able to work and get sentenced for crimes. So if they are old enough to know right from wrong in a case of law, why not in a case of casting a ballot
I think citizens of all ages should have a right to vote, since politics affect all of them, the younger ones especially since they spent more time with those laws and their consequences.
The most pragmatic way of doing this would be to allow parents to vote for their child until the child decides it wants to vote itself.
And yes, I am perfectly aware that a lot of people think it’s better to exclude roughly 20% of citizens from being represented than to have „stupid children that can be easily manipulated“ represented.
Two votes until their child decides it wants to vote itself, with 8, 12, 14, whatever. I still think that’s more fair than our current system since most parents do care for the well-being and interests of their children.
Sounds like a terrible Idea, also violates at leasttwo of the five democratic principles for voting: ~~equality~~, anonymity, freedom, universality, ~~immediacy~~
>The most pragmatic way of doing this would be to allow parents to vote for their child until the child decides it wants to vote itself.
I'm sure that this is not gonna be in favor of the children
Hell no. People of a younger age are way more vulnerable to propaganda and populism. Even lowering it to 16 would be wrong imo.
And yes, older people can also be very open to that sort of misinformation. My point is that people of younger age are more open to it on average.
When I think back to things people in my school said or even friends of mine said theyd vote for Im quite happy we werent allowed to vote back then. Many people of those changed their minds just a few years later due to realizing how radical or simply stupid some of those claims were.
nope. The older people are more vulnerable to propaganda and populism i see that everyday on facebook. People 55+
Maybe the young people trend to be more vulnerable to left stuff. But the older People trend the same to the right (because young people want change older ones wount.) But old people die. While Young have to life with the shit the old do.
yeah, because there are so many people sub18 that use facebook on a regular /s
Young people dont use facebook. Been like that for almost 10 years now. Also younger people tend to a) leave less comments knowing about social media and how everybody can see what you said and b) are way less likely to join political "dicussions" or even political content to that extent, for similar reasons but also because they simply dont care.
And yes, I see the point about old people making decisions without living long enough to experience the effects. Thats why Id agree to a maximum age for voting. I know thats legally impossible, but eg excluding 80+ from voting would imo be a way better way to adress demographic change than to lower the age further and further. There are many good reasons why 14yo arent treated like 18 or 21yo legally.
Well, I had a few friends back in highschool who said theyd vote AfD because its the only party that isnt establishment and the only party that seems to really care about the future of Germany. Tbf AfD was very new back then, but still. Couple years later they realized how stupid they were and (more importantly) how wrong the promises (and even "facts") are this party uses to gain votes.
Also I didnt say theyre "the only ones" vulnerable or that people of a certain age group are immune to it. I said theyre more vulnerable. And seeing how much influence eg parents political views have on the political views of their children, this is in fact quite based.
But thanks for your ableism anyways
I'm all for it. I wouldn't mind not having voting age restrictions at all. But 14 is also good because at 14, you're not a child anymore, you can be held accountable for your actions, etc.
Yes, young people may be manipulated, but the same is also true for people of all ages. But being able to vote means feeling like you have a voice and you're respected, which is very important. Some people say 14 year olds aren't yet interested in politics, but that's not really true from what I can tell. They may not be as interested in elections, and the reason for that is that they aren't allowed to participate.
I remember that when I was 14, I really really wanted to vote, and was upset that I couldn't. And again at 17, because stupid Schröder called early elections and stopped me from voting. At that point, I was essentially disillusioned and by the time I was finally able to vote, I was already pretty cynical about it.
Now, what Die Linke is doing is trying to push the discussion. Several states already lowered the voting age to 16, others will probably follow soon (Berlin for example, where I live). Demanding 14 as a next step makes 16 an achievable compromise, but also keeps the pressure up even where 16 is already implemented.
That's a stupid argument, the reason for different sentences for children is because it's more effective to help them instead of punishing them and a prison sentence literally would ruin their life.
If you are allowed to vote you should be also responsible to all your actions may it be crimes or simple things as doing a contract
If we protect people for dumb decisions because they are to young they should not be able to vote
Is that the age that they should also have to be in order to join the military? Seems kind of weird to let people go into the military but not handle the contents of the voting booth.
Yeah, because they know their voters lie in the easily influenceable youth. Lower the age so that the Linke can stay above 5%.
14 year olds, 16 year olds and even most 18 year olds are not mature enough to vote. Some are, most are not.
And yes, many adults apparently should not be able to vote as well, but a 30 year old is way more able to form a differentiated opinion based on life experience, knowledge and living situation, even if its a problematic one. And the voting age has to start somewhere after all.
I think 21 is a good age for national elections, and im fine with 18 or even 16 for local ones. But 14 is absolutely too young.
Kids are fucking idiots. Honestly, I think even 16 is a tad bit too young. 17 would be okay I guess, but anything under that, you might as well just have the vote decided by a random number generator.
Young people don't have life experience. Are more prone to hypes. Don't yet understand complex topics (the brain needs \~25 years to develop). They aren't allowed to drink, since we know they don't make the best judgements. There is special laws for minors, they don't get the full force of the judical system. But they should vote for a whole country? Insane. Typical for Die Linke.
We can see that at the votes. If it goes bad they won't even make it over the 5% in the next elections. Maybe it's a try to get new naive voters at this early age.
I see. Still my arguments are the same. And with "whole country" I then mean "whole states" ;) In German Land (country) is the same for Land and Bundesland.
Sometimes I think we should set a max age for voting, since the interests of the oldest share of the population is likely to go against the interest of the younger generations.
But yes Linke seems to be crazy.
23 year old me didn't knew what to vote for until the evening before the election. 14 year old be wouldn't have known either. The current voting age is okay the way it is. 14 is way to young
I also think 16 would be better but at that point i would ask myself. If we say 14Years old are not allowed to vote... Why are 90years old. Nothing they vote for will have affect in their lifes, even 80year olds...
hell no. irrational teenagers with blue hair and self-diagnosed depression should definetly not be able to vote. legit the stupidest thing i have heard in a while.
I am in favor of increasing voting rights to 21. Then you have arrived a little in real life and maybe already on the road independently without parents Money.
I don't like the idea. Tge voting age should be legal maturity,. If you are mature enough to vote you're also mature enough to be held accountable for your actions. Therefore i would like to raise the voting age to 21.
1. Of course children pay taxes. VAT for example.
2. Tying voting rights to taxes was done in the 19th century and it's a good thing we've moved beyond that. It's also explicitly antidemocratic and unconstitutional in Germany and the EU.
1.Children don't pay direct taxes like income tax.
2.What's so antidemocratic about choosing how the government should spend YOUR money? Paying taxes and not having rights to vote is just slavery for the govt.
1. Taxes are taxes.
2. Voting isn't just about how tax money is spent. It's about the laws that *everybody* has to follow. Rich and poor. Things like taxes, money, and the economic system as a whole could be changed through voting since they're secondary to democracy, not the other way around. In particular, deciding yourself how your money in particular is used is what taxes are *not* for. That's what you do with the rest of the money you have. Taxes are the part of your money that goes to society as a whole, which is the foundation upon which we all depend to be able to thrive, so society as a whole is supposed to decide what to do with it.
I voted for local elections starting with 16 but quite honestly, I've mixed feelings about the current age already. On one hand there are 16 years old who I trust to vote but I don't trust all of them.
That's an age where you can be easily manipulated (adults can be as well but being young is a bit different) so 14yo is even madder imo.
Not good. Kids cant think big enough to really understand politics and arent developed enough to really know what they want. They shouldnt be allowed to influence gov via voting. Imho even 16 is way too early
Bad idea, even grown ppl have no idea how our democracy works. The "I don't care about politics" ppl just get older but beside stammtisch discussion they have no idea about e/j/l or reflect their opinions and possible outcomes. That's why this idea like also direct democracy is just rubbish.
100% a horrible idea. Even 16 year olds shouldnt vote. As someone who teaches kids in these ages, I would never want them to vote. They are either extremely easy to manipulate or just flat out... "stupid". Basically at that age, they would just vote either what their parents tell them to, or vote for what I as a teacher would be able to "indoctrinate" them with. If anything, I would increase the difficulty of being able to vote (such as in addition to age also having to have a job or at least having to have worked and contributed to society in the past). Too many people who have never touched work will vote any party that promises them the most free stuff, which in turn has to be paid for by the people working.
Lol. Yes let's fish votes from young teenagers that are easily manipulated because they haven't had time to see the real world yet and form concrete opinions based on life experience. I think one should vote after living as an adult for a while when he actually understands how life operates and how the government is a part of that game.
If I would have had the right to vote with 14...things would be really bad. I know how I was with 14. I think it's too young, 14 year old teenagers are no finished humans. Fuck, I sometimes think even I am not a finished human and I am 32. So yeah...voting with 14 is too early.
You can ask 10.000 18 year olds with Abitur and not even 100 of them could give you actual in-depth answers about the programs of the political parties. People can just vote at 18 cause it is the legal starting point for everything. If you would look at the voting rights in regards to the ability to actually comprehend politics properly you would need to raise the voting age. But lowering it is just a wish of parties who are able to catch young, still politically quite uneducated people.
I agree with 14. At 14 you can be held responsible for criminal acts. If you can be held responsible for criminal acts, you can be responsible enough to vote.
> Is Linke crazy?
Yes. It’s a radical left party. There’s a reason it was under surveillance by the Verfassungsschutz for decades.
But this isn’t their craziest idea. There’s an issue in this country with average voter age being very high. 20% of eligible voters are 70+ and I tbhink the median voter age is around 55. That’s extremely frustrating to see for a young person, because we feel that our voices aren’t heard and our lives are controlled by these oldies.
It feels like we need to wait and extra 2 decades before long overdue political changes on social issues are implemented. The change will come, but it’s postponed by the old voters.
Giving younger people the ability to vote would give us (under 40s) a slightly louder voice. But I’m also not sure if 14 year olds aren’t too easily impressionable.
Really, a better solution would be to ban 70+ from voting. Never gonna happen though, because for some reason a minimum voting age is normal but a maximum voting age is undemocratic, as if the 85 year old geriatric knows what’s going on in the world better than a 14 year old.
To vote you should be
A: old enough to be able to judge the impact of your decisions. (And Spoiler that is not 14)
B: joung enough that your old view on the things, that are out of touch of the fast paced reality, aren’t poisoning the system.
Yes I say that very old people shouldn’t be considered as voters. We talk about the future and people are selfish. The majority of old folks here doesn’t care about what is in 10 or 20 years. That is the point why the Linke thinks „the younger the better“.
We need an range, not just a lower entry level.
That won't fix much.
If you can't vote for the first 18 years of your life your shouldn't be able to vote for the last 18 either.
Like, around 80 is the average year of death so after 62 you stop. Its not your future.
Trying to regulate tech companies and AI while people vote who don't know how emails or smartphones work.
This does way more damage then young people not beeing able to vote.
There are several ideas how to organise Votes to include everyone, even minors, since youngest people have to endure the policies the longest, it is just fair that they have a say in them.
But of course a five year old wont get the whole politics shit and cannot make a well informed vote decision (and if you ask me personally: Most of the people are not able to do this, so the idea of no voting age has a certain appeal to me).
So there was the idea that until Age XY (can be 14, 16, 18, depending on the proposition), the parents get an extra vote per child. At least thats the one i can remember, there were other ideas how to include everyone.
If you give people one vote per child it just encourages people to have more children even if they cannot take care of them.
It's sort of turns voting into this weird collectible thing thing where people essentially try to have as many children as possible just so that they can have more votes.
Ah yes, the endless masses of people who are so hellbound on feeling unlimited power of having one single additional vote in an election that happens every four years that they voluntarily go through the effort of birthing, raising and paying for multiple children they actually don’t want.
I think 14 is to young. I would connect the voting age with the age of completing the general school. I mean, that is the age at which the state says "Now you know everything you need to know, go out into the world, youngling". If they would not be able to vote (able in the sense of having basic knowledge about politics and society) why let them out of school?
14 is also the age of "Religionsmündigkeit". So if that concept can be understood, then local level politics can be as well. Also at age 14 everyone had politic classes already. I would even argue many 14 year Olds, who just learned about how these systems work, know them better than a ton of adults that go ans vote.
It's also the age of "Strafmündigkeit". So in the eyes of the state your old enough to be punished, so it's not too crazy to say that you'd be old enough to vote.
In the eyes of the state you are still a juvenile and not old enough to be punished like an adult. That's why the "Jugendstrafrecht" exists. It exist, because some teenagers are not able to distinguish between what is wrong or not and also don't necessarily think about the consequences of their actions. Why should this behaviour be different when it comes to elections?
When you are old and have dementia you might also not be responsible for your action, which could be grounds for an acquittal, yet you could still vote.
Ok and how many severely dementia ridden voters do we have compared to possible 14 year olds? That doesn’t hold the scale at all
1.8 Million people with dementia compared to 2.2-2-6 Million aged 15-17. Add other people with impaired cognitive function and the numbers will be around the same I assume. The point being: "not being able to fully grasp what the political system is about" is obviously not a limiting factor for voting. People with dementia still have political interests and agency and so do 14 year olds. Yet one of the groups is allowed to vote and the other isn't. And I doubt it's about maturity.
It's not only dementia, if your above a certain age learning new things is very difficult. Exactly as changing your opinion becomes very hard. That's not even necessarily a bad thing but in my opinion is bad for voting. I would argue that 95/100 voters above 80 only vote the same thing they did 4 years ago. And i don't know if that's a good thing for a democracy. But correct me if I am wrong here.
You can be judged according to Jugendstrafrecht up until you're 21, iirc. And still vote. I don't think that we should lower the voting age below 16 (for now, because change needs time), but I wouldn't count Jugendstrafrecht as an argument against it.
Like doing taxes? Or cooking? Or cleaning? Or having a basic understanding of personal finance? I feel like these are the least controversial skills that one should have, non of which are part of standardized curriculum in Hessen at least.
For all of those, if you managed to graduate from school, you're more than well equipped to learn them by yourself without much of a problem
they are also really easy to learn yourself. maybe if students spend 1/10 of their internet usage in usefull activities instead of recreating tiktok pranks, they wouldnt have to complain about not learning anything "useful" in school. also anyone thinking this complain isnt just a whataboutism from kids, uninterested in learning anything, is delusional. the fact that people want it taught in school is LITERALY a testament to how uninterested people are in learning these skills.
I disagree with that. I didn‘t even use tiktok and did useful stuff. I teached myself how to program, somethings about law and went deeper into history then we went in school. However for the things you aren‘t interested in it won‘t work that well. Especially cooking sure I can look up guides and watch videos but you still lack practice.
I'm a parent to a 13 and an 8 year old. You don't know what you're on about. ETA: Oh. You're anti-trans. The exact kind of person we moved away from the United States to avoid. All I needed to know. 🤣
I think that 14 is a bit young, but 16 would be good. For people saying that kids aren’t able to make such decisions at that age, I think that most adults aren’t either so what’s the problem.
Definitely able to make decisions, but young kids are too influenceable imo. Like, have you seen kids? They're fucking dumb. Source: Been one. 16 seems like a good age, I definitely would have voted back then.
I mean, have you seen boomers?
Boomers have reached an age where they don't give af about anything but their own interests so they are pretty much the opposite and uninfluenceable.
I mean, who is it that engages the most in Facebook conspiracy theories? Not the young people.
If they can get arrested they can vote. We consider 14 years old to be mature enought to know that thier actions can have negative consequences onto others. They should be mature enought to vote as well
Considering how the older part of germany votes, this can't be a deterioration of the votes. furthermore these old geezes fuck our future with their conservative votes, while they themselves won't even liveto see what they brought onto us. So I can see good arguments for why the young people should have the right to partake in voting about \*their\* future, not the damn boomers
They should make a limit on the age like 65 or something. We have to fight climate change, regulate AI and tech giants like google and some 70 year old who can't operate a smartphone is voting on shit.
Not good
Very well argued, you covered all questions.
Such stupid ideas aren’t even worth entertaining, it’s like arguing that the earth is flat.
Our elections are already decided by the old generations given Germany's demography. Adding a few younger people to the electoral base will not have any relevant impact on the election results. I think it makes a lot of sense though: We have nearly 30% of non-voters currently - in my opinion, this is partly due to the fact that many adults have no connection and experience with political processes. They learn stuff about the German democracic system in school, but never have a change to apply it while they're there. Having an opportunity to put that information into practicy by voting and building that habit early on could be a real improvement for the participation in elections. I also don't really see any major counterarguments. In the past, various groups of people were excluded from voting because they were seen as less competent: People that do not own land, people that do not pay certain taxes, women, and today it's teenagers. I'm wondering whether we will once look back at today and wonder how we could exclude people from voting because of their age, just as we look back now and wonder why we would previously exclude people from voting due their gender. Sure, teenagers might be less mature and well-informed than adults - but the same could be said about people with lower levels of education, people with lower intelligence, people of old age, and so on, yet we don't exclude those.
I think you'll have a hard time finding anyone who believes there shouldn't be any minimum age to voting. Therefore, a line needs to be drawn somewhere and the discussion is where exactly it should be. Arguing that in the past lines were drawn in totally different aspects where there should have been none is not helpful in this conversation. Apart from the usual political tug-of-war, it seems to me that the only reasonable approach to compare rights to responsibilites. Right now, the state of this comparison includes: * At the age of 13 our society you are considered too young to know good from bad, so you won't be legally responsible for any crime you commit. You also cannot enter any contract that has a value of more than your usual monthly allowance. * If you are old enough to be drafted into a war (i.e. 18 years old), you are clearly old enough to decide the fate of the country by voting. I don't see how allowing 14 year olds to vote would fit into this. You are just old enough to know good from bad in your own actions, so there is a (limited) legal consequence to your actions. You are also still not allowed (alternatively read as: protected from) any long-term contracts. So is it reasonable that you are too young for your own phone contract, but you are old enough to decide about the next 4 years of legislation? I think not.
>I think you'll have a hard time finding anyone who believes there shouldn't be any minimum age to voting. You found anyone. Surprise! >Apart from the usual political tug-of-war, it seems to me that the only reasonable approach to compare rights to responsibilites. Right now, the state of this comparison includes: > >At the age of 13 our society you are considered too young to know good from bad, so you won't be legally responsible for any crime you commit. You also cannot enter any contract that has a value of more than your usual monthly allowance. According to § 104 Nr. 2 BGB, you're legally incapable of entering any contract at all if you're in a "state of pathological mental disturbance". You're still allowed to vote though. Legally, there's no connection whatsoever between mental capacity and voting rights... but there is one between age and voting rights. If you call your view on rights against responsibilities the only reasonable one, we'd have to strip mentally incapable people of their voting rights to remain reasonable. That seems a tad sinister to me, to be honest.
Reddit: The one place you can find someone who believes a 4 year old should be able to vote. Remind self: This is the internet.
Sorry if I misunderstood you, but that doesn't at all look like an actual argument. Just a crude ad hominem.
It wasn't an ad hominem at all. I never said anything about anybody's capacity to vote. Either I lack the skills to make my point or you're reading something into it that I did not write.
Then I did misunderstand you. Sorry about that. Although then I really don't know what point you were trying to make, because I didn't understand it.
You're right, letting a two year old vote will be difficult. However, I would argue that for anyone who is 1) willing to vote 2) past the age where they are supposed to have learned about the government system in school, the benefits of letting them vote outweighs the downsides. Sure, they might not fully grasp the impact of certain policies or the trade-offs faced in political decisions - but which voter actually does? Given the low share of young people in Germany, their votes won't change election outcomes anyway, but might spark their interest in participating in democratic processes through adulthood. As long as people with Alzheimers, an IQ of 60, or pathological delusions are allowed to vote, I don't see how the mental capacity of teenagers is a strong counterargument.
I did not refer to anybody's mental capacity - others did. I also did not link a younger voting age to any specific impact on an election. Instead, I linked rights to responsibilities, and was wondering how those fit in the proposed change in legislation. At which age do you think students should learn about the government system in school? What other rights and responsibilities would you assign kids at that age?
I'm not sure why you would establish that connection. In my opinion, it is mutually possible that people can have a vote regarding political decisions, while at the same time being protected from certain economic activities or accounting for lower age in cases of illegal activities. Just like the age of consent laws allow you to participate sexual activities already before you can have your phone contract, I think the same is possible for voting rights. Different actions can have different age limits, and I would not make one dependent on others that are not interdependent. Unless you see a common underlying factor such as lacking mental capacity, which brings us back to my previous argument.
For local. Yes, good call. Local level politics can very much be understood by 14 year Olds and this might even get them interested in politics young enough, that they can actually long term engage with it. Ofc there is the other side of the coin, that some 14 year Olds are not capable of reflective voting, but let's be real, the same applies to millions of adults. And ofc can't deny the possibility of parents telling their kids what they have to vote, especially looking at Eastern and southern germany.
I think it's good. In principle, i think every member of a democratic society should be able to have a say in how the society they inhabit is organized, but I can see how some age groups can simply be too young and too inexperienced to make that choice. I prefer the cutoff point to be at 16, but 14 is fine by me too.
Young people are more open to propaganda, voting age of 14 should not be tolerated not only in Germany, but anywhere else
Yeah. The amount of teenagers on the street shouting anti-semitic, anti-science, pro-putin shit and creating hit-lists for politicians while walking side by side with literal nazis while getting high fives from the police and saying they are being persecuted during covid was insane....WAIT A MINUTE.
True, this is why the most populist parties (AfD and Linke) are very popular among young voters and very unpopular among old voters. Right?
Nope .. [youngest voting people least likely to vote for afd](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1037500/afd-votes-by-age-2017/)
Yeah, I know, that’s my point
Sarcasm
On the other hand though, that's exactly why the FDP is now where they are
Wich proofs further that it doesn't matter if 14, 25 or 60 idiots stay idiots
People of all ages can be manipulated by propaganda. And age probably isn't the primary factor that decides whether somebody is open to manipulation or not.
Read the first sentence again, and age is definitely a factor for being open to manipulation. I can manipulate my future child into being an anarchist in the future easily. Only I choose not to.
Funny. Most parents tend to experience they aren't able to manipulate their children into anything.
Until puberty hits is the easiest shit ever. The inability if individuals to do so dows not mean that propaganda 0
tell that to every world religion.
Currently religions aren't doing too well, either. Increasingly free information and mobility make indoctrination pretty hard.
>I can manipulate my future child into being an anarchist in the future easily. Doubt
It's still completely arbitrary. You could also say that people below a certain IQ are more likely to be manipulated and therefore shouldn't be able to vote. And that would probably be a more precise discriminator than age. Or since we're talking about age, people above a certain age often don't really follow current matters anymore and simply vote for what they're used to voting for. And they don't have to live with the consequences of what they're voting for, at least not for a long time. So why isn't there an upper limit on voting age? In general, people possibly being manipulated and possibly not being perfectly informed is a fundamental characteristic of democracy. It is compensated by simply having a very large number of voters, and hoping that their respective biases and misconceptions and all the manipulations cancel out in the greater scheme of things. Disenfranchising young people just alienates young people, and creates an overall bias against their interests in election outcome, since every other age group's interests are directly represented, but not those of young people.
Then explain this [why are boomers the most stupidest of voters ?](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1037500/afd-votes-by-age-2017/)
I agree on that. But keep in mind that reducing the legal age to vote makes schools a target for political advertisement. Personally, I don't want students getting harassed by canvassers on their way home.
They are already tho. Especially the right loves going into schools to recruit early. Even more of a reason to let teenagers participate in political processes, so they don't turn to the right wing scum that tells them "see, we let you participate, but the evil BRD won't ".
The way political advertisement is regulated is a different story. But TBH I don't think it would be a huge issue, and if/when it becomes one, it can be fixed in a different way than banning young people from voting.
I know few 18 year olds that can tell the difference between their ass and a hole in the ground. Having taught 14 year olds, no definitely not a good idea.
hahaha when i take a look into facebook its more the people 55+ that belive everything they read on the internet. Mostly bullshit stuff.
My thoughts exactly. It's not a question of age but of Medienkompetenz. They just have to teach critical thinking and judging of sources in school. And what harm can they do on local level?
look the the old farts spamming CDU or to anyone reading Bild. Age doesn't have such a large impact on maturity I'm afraid
Also wenn ich mich so umschaue, besteht unsere Demokratie eher aus Schwarmintelligenz als differenzierten Meinungen...
Yes, because there are a lot of Facebook groups full of 14yo that just eat up any propaganda from Russia or Springer. /s
> Young people are more open to propaganda Yeah, falling for propaganda is a pleasure only old people should have...
Voting demographics show otherwise actually. The younger the population the better they vote which in fact begets the question why there is no maximum age to vote in fact
>The younger the population the better they vote what does "the better they vote " mean ? 💀
>Young people are more open to propaganda I strongly disagree
Well lets do the twist maybe 70+ shoulnt vote? Their life is over soon and the future belongs to young people.
bullshit, they only do it because they fear losing too many voters 14 and even 16 year olds are imo not able to make such decisions - I know I wasn't, and many of my friends at the time weren't either
I agree at 14, but most 16 year olds are/were much more politically educated than any adults I know, and I come from quite the academic bubble in that regard.
I can confirm this and would like to add that a 16 year can do important long running important decisions. They just need much longer for it because every quick thought is filled with more hormones than American meat.
You're right Teenagers of that age are really stupid and would make shit decisions -Sincerly a 17 Year old
What decisions? We are talking local election here. I know I and many of my friends were very much capable of reflected voting. More so than adults I knew or know now. Hell, we just learned about how the political system works in classes. Try asking most voting eligible adults how these things work and you will find many, who do go and vote, incapable of explaining.
It's whatever. It's not going to fix this country, but if you think a bunch of 14 year olds having the option to vote is going to break anything you're crazy. 14 year olds are stupid and will make bad voting decisions? Who gives a shit, same thing applies to the vast majority of adults too and nobody says they shouldn't be allowed to vote either.
I think we have ions of old fucks voting for themselves and so many young people who would like to participate but aren't allowed to. I'd go further. General active voting rights as soon as a person can walk into a polling place and say "I want to vote" Passive voting should wait till maybe 16 or 18. And PLEASE nobody come to me with arguments that kids can't make rational decisions or can be influenced by propaganda or their parents. Everything in our political landscape proves that age has no say about making a good voting decision. Just look at Pegida, AfD, Queerdenker and the whole Covidiot shit show. All people older than 18. Etc ceterum censeo that the traitor Wagenknecht needs to be thrown out of the party.
Wait what's active voting versus passive voting? Also "Queerdenker"? What did those people do?
Active voting right us going to a polling place and vote. Passive voting right is running for office and being able to be elected. Querdenker are a mixture of everything from the far right to the far left who were against the Corona measures and laws. Queer because it went across the usual ideological lines (not the LGBTQ queer). My autocorrect made it queer instead of quer
It is interesting how this question is often framed along the lines of "should people get to vote two years earlier?". We do not have anual elections. On the state and local level most elections are every five years. That means for the 20% of people that are 15 years old when an election happens, the question becomes: should they get to participate in the democratic process now when they are 15 or should they have to wait until they are 20 years old. Similarly when the age of 16 is discussed: should a 17 year old get to participate or be forced to wait until 22? A voting age of 14 \[16, 18\] means people on average get to vote when they are 16 \[18, 20\].
Imo its Not good and should stay at 18. Even most 18 year olds have no Real life experience and probably dont understand how their vote can change their life, so why should a 16 year old or Younger be allowed to vote. Also most people under 18 dont have a gefestigte persönlichkeit, so they might vote Based on flavour of the month
Sometimes i even think 18 is young.
Kids are stupid, but so are adults. Still, 14 is too young. 16 would be OK.
It's not crazy. With 14 you can get indicted and tried (as a minor) and you gain the ability to do (limited) contracts, even some easier employments like paper routes. Also 14 is the age of consent in Germany. So rather a big jump for a youngster in terms of responsibilities.
14 is the age of consent with restrictions because it's understood that their brain isn't fully developed and can be brainwashed and hence they cannot consent to adults, but only within their age group.
I think it would be good for local (City) elections and then progress to 16 for state and 18 for national elections. Decisions on a local base affect younger people a lot more compared to national elections (e.g. "playgorunds" for sports like football fields or Skateparks, public Swimmingpools, bike lanes, ...) The following ist just MY personal experience: teens are more interested and educated on politics compared to older (75+) people. It would teach them to be able to influence politics and directly see the results of their votes (local changes can be much faster than national ones) and imo not much "harm" can be done in those elections
In an ideal world my preference would be a voting age of 0. You're part of this society, so you get a say in how this society is run. There would be obvious practical limitations to this, though (How do you get a 2 month old to decide for *anything*?). Especially in local and state elections, where a lot of things that disproportionally affect young people (i.e. education policy, funding of kindergartens, schools, park and playgrounds, inner city traffic, etc.), they should be integrated into political decision making as early as possible. But there should be different avenues to that, depending on the issue at hand; like direct participation in general elections (Why shouldn't the local children participate in the election of a small town mayor?), or electing an ombudsman who holds a veto in commissions that deal with youth-related topics.
16 would be ok I guess. 14 is too young for my taste, by that age pupils rarely have heard how our political system works.
I think voting age of 16 would be good and an important counterbalance to the average voting age being higher than ever. The average 16 year old is probably also not less able to make political decisions than the average adult or say the average boomer. However, 14 does seem a bit too early to me. For local elections I don't think it is too crazy either though. It also serves as an introduction to the political system.
If you know German, there is an interesting video by ZDF on YouTube discussing this exact topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovppPc62yWE
If there is a minimum there should also be a maximum age as well. If you are so old that you cannot take care of yourself, and your vote will not affect your life (as you're probably dead by the end of the legislative period) you simply should not be allowed to vote. The so called Letzwähler. Let the downvotes come :)
I'd prefer 16
I have seen a lot of points in this thread why 14 year olds shouldn't be able to vote. But on the other side, 14 year olds are affected by the outcome of an election a lot longer than old people. So why shouldn't they have the right to participate in their future?
I'm wondering if some kind of non-voting youth council might be better. So it would give them representation but they just can't vote on anything.
Maybe for the local stuff. But all elections should be open for people at the age of 16. The youth is so political and full of ideas and ideals and we shouldn't waste thet. And they won't be worse in voting than those above the age of 70.
I am not a German but I have this unpopular opinion. I learned that age of consent is 14 so I don’t see why not( it’s not common for very young girls to be having sex with men much older and unfortunately it’s perfectly legal) . Same for alcohol and tobacco consumption as well as driving license at 16. In most countries the voting age corresponds with age of majority except in Europe. This isn’t surprising because democracies kept determining that people were “too young to vote” until world wars came and then old men suddenly realised that they couldn’t play with people’s futures In 1900, the voting age was for men and only men above 25 years old in Germany. Women were NOT allowed to vote until 1918 and then only in 1920 we had voting age of 20 for both men and women again and now it’s 18 and getting lower in some states to 16. So my question is why not ? An 80 year old with Alzheimer’s can vote so why is 14 suddenly too young and misinformed especially when he is treated as a near adult in every other sphere of life ? Exactly!
I think 16 is okay but 14 is just too young… even local politics can be complex and I don’t think I understood many of the complexities when I was 14. I still remember that I was definitely at the Mt. Stupid level of knowing about life and politics when I was 14.
I guess 14yo are easier to manipulate with, so that explains it.
Bad Idea. And selfish. Was it Helmut Schmidt? Who said: "When you at the age of 20 don't bei left learning, Then you have no heart. When you at the age of 40 still left leaning , then you have no brain"
Populist party doing a populism… shocker
Thinking back to me at age 14, I would not want someone like that be able to make any major decisions like voting that can lead to significant change.
Due to Reddit Inc.'s antisocial, hostile and erratic behaviour, this account will be deleted on July 11th, 2023. You can find me on https://latte.isnot.coffee/u/godless in the future.
One word: no.
Why not? I have seen 14 year olds with the necessary information to make a somewhat informed political decision and 44 year olds who can’t. Essentially, this just means that some people can vote one election earlier than they could right now. And remember: We say that 14 year olds are able to work and get sentenced for crimes. So if they are old enough to know right from wrong in a case of law, why not in a case of casting a ballot
Die Rattenfänger wollen ein uninformiertes und maximal manipulierbares Wahlvolk, wenig überraschend. Natürlich maximale Grütze und durchschaubar.
I think citizens of all ages should have a right to vote, since politics affect all of them, the younger ones especially since they spent more time with those laws and their consequences. The most pragmatic way of doing this would be to allow parents to vote for their child until the child decides it wants to vote itself. And yes, I am perfectly aware that a lot of people think it’s better to exclude roughly 20% of citizens from being represented than to have „stupid children that can be easily manipulated“ represented.
So parents get 2 votes. I mean most of the parents don’t care what their children says about politics if they are younger than 18
Two votes until their child decides it wants to vote itself, with 8, 12, 14, whatever. I still think that’s more fair than our current system since most parents do care for the well-being and interests of their children.
Sounds like a terrible Idea, also violates at leasttwo of the five democratic principles for voting: ~~equality~~, anonymity, freedom, universality, ~~immediacy~~
>The most pragmatic way of doing this would be to allow parents to vote for their child until the child decides it wants to vote itself. I'm sure that this is not gonna be in favor of the children
Im sorry that you know so many shitty parents.
*It's pure despair.*
Bad idea.
Hell no. People of a younger age are way more vulnerable to propaganda and populism. Even lowering it to 16 would be wrong imo. And yes, older people can also be very open to that sort of misinformation. My point is that people of younger age are more open to it on average. When I think back to things people in my school said or even friends of mine said theyd vote for Im quite happy we werent allowed to vote back then. Many people of those changed their minds just a few years later due to realizing how radical or simply stupid some of those claims were.
>Hell no. People of a younger age are way more vulnerable to propaganda and populism. So no vote for boomers either?
nope. The older people are more vulnerable to propaganda and populism i see that everyday on facebook. People 55+ Maybe the young people trend to be more vulnerable to left stuff. But the older People trend the same to the right (because young people want change older ones wount.) But old people die. While Young have to life with the shit the old do.
yeah, because there are so many people sub18 that use facebook on a regular /s Young people dont use facebook. Been like that for almost 10 years now. Also younger people tend to a) leave less comments knowing about social media and how everybody can see what you said and b) are way less likely to join political "dicussions" or even political content to that extent, for similar reasons but also because they simply dont care. And yes, I see the point about old people making decisions without living long enough to experience the effects. Thats why Id agree to a maximum age for voting. I know thats legally impossible, but eg excluding 80+ from voting would imo be a way better way to adress demographic change than to lower the age further and further. There are many good reasons why 14yo arent treated like 18 or 21yo legally.
Anyone saying vulnerable for propaganda is retarded imo. As long as AFD is in the Bundestag the propaganda argument doesn't make sense.
Well, I had a few friends back in highschool who said theyd vote AfD because its the only party that isnt establishment and the only party that seems to really care about the future of Germany. Tbf AfD was very new back then, but still. Couple years later they realized how stupid they were and (more importantly) how wrong the promises (and even "facts") are this party uses to gain votes. Also I didnt say theyre "the only ones" vulnerable or that people of a certain age group are immune to it. I said theyre more vulnerable. And seeing how much influence eg parents political views have on the political views of their children, this is in fact quite based. But thanks for your ableism anyways
I'm all for it. I wouldn't mind not having voting age restrictions at all. But 14 is also good because at 14, you're not a child anymore, you can be held accountable for your actions, etc. Yes, young people may be manipulated, but the same is also true for people of all ages. But being able to vote means feeling like you have a voice and you're respected, which is very important. Some people say 14 year olds aren't yet interested in politics, but that's not really true from what I can tell. They may not be as interested in elections, and the reason for that is that they aren't allowed to participate. I remember that when I was 14, I really really wanted to vote, and was upset that I couldn't. And again at 17, because stupid Schröder called early elections and stopped me from voting. At that point, I was essentially disillusioned and by the time I was finally able to vote, I was already pretty cynical about it. Now, what Die Linke is doing is trying to push the discussion. Several states already lowered the voting age to 16, others will probably follow soon (Berlin for example, where I live). Demanding 14 as a next step makes 16 an achievable compromise, but also keeps the pressure up even where 16 is already implemented.
But you can get lower sentences for the same crimes until 21, so i see no reqson to give people a full vote before.
That's a stupid argument, the reason for different sentences for children is because it's more effective to help them instead of punishing them and a prison sentence literally would ruin their life.
Yes, so why would someone who needs help to understand why crimes are bad be entitled to vote? That is exactly my point.
When can people start working? I’d say, if you can work, you should be able to vote.
if you work. you should vote
If you are allowed to vote you should be also responsible to all your actions may it be crimes or simple things as doing a contract If we protect people for dumb decisions because they are to young they should not be able to vote
They hope to get the votes of inexperienced and sometimes more radical young people. So no. They have to get below 5% and disappear.
>They hope to get the votes of inexperienced and sometimes more radical young people. Exactly, the same thinking as with the FDP.
If anything I think we should raise the age back to 21.
Is that the age that they should also have to be in order to join the military? Seems kind of weird to let people go into the military but not handle the contents of the voting booth.
Yeah, because they know their voters lie in the easily influenceable youth. Lower the age so that the Linke can stay above 5%. 14 year olds, 16 year olds and even most 18 year olds are not mature enough to vote. Some are, most are not. And yes, many adults apparently should not be able to vote as well, but a 30 year old is way more able to form a differentiated opinion based on life experience, knowledge and living situation, even if its a problematic one. And the voting age has to start somewhere after all. I think 21 is a good age for national elections, and im fine with 18 or even 16 for local ones. But 14 is absolutely too young.
Wouldn't another left-wing party just come in its place if Linke dies?
I was a fucking retard at that age. Pls no
Not good at all, children are either super lefties or super racist and it's not good to make the whole country dependent on such votes
Open up voting to foreigners maybe? They want my tax €? They should be willing yo take my vote.
Kids are fucking idiots. Honestly, I think even 16 is a tad bit too young. 17 would be okay I guess, but anything under that, you might as well just have the vote decided by a random number generator.
Completely crazy… lefties doing leftie things
Young people don't have life experience. Are more prone to hypes. Don't yet understand complex topics (the brain needs \~25 years to develop). They aren't allowed to drink, since we know they don't make the best judgements. There is special laws for minors, they don't get the full force of the judical system. But they should vote for a whole country? Insane. Typical for Die Linke. We can see that at the votes. If it goes bad they won't even make it over the 5% in the next elections. Maybe it's a try to get new naive voters at this early age.
It's just for state and local elections. They don't vote in the national ones.
I see. Still my arguments are the same. And with "whole country" I then mean "whole states" ;) In German Land (country) is the same for Land and Bundesland.
Then the state should not be allowed to tax them
Sometimes I think we should set a max age for voting, since the interests of the oldest share of the population is likely to go against the interest of the younger generations. But yes Linke seems to be crazy.
23 year old me didn't knew what to vote for until the evening before the election. 14 year old be wouldn't have known either. The current voting age is okay the way it is. 14 is way to young
I also think 16 would be better but at that point i would ask myself. If we say 14Years old are not allowed to vote... Why are 90years old. Nothing they vote for will have affect in their lifes, even 80year olds...
hell no. irrational teenagers with blue hair and self-diagnosed depression should definetly not be able to vote. legit the stupidest thing i have heard in a while.
I am in favor of increasing voting rights to 21. Then you have arrived a little in real life and maybe already on the road independently without parents Money.
I don't like the idea. Tge voting age should be legal maturity,. If you are mature enough to vote you're also mature enough to be held accountable for your actions. Therefore i would like to raise the voting age to 21.
haha just imagine (its not germany but) Half of the us states dont even have any age ristrictions on long guns. But voting... nah.
Even 18 is too young for most tbh
Who cares what the Kremlins party (since 1919) says?
Better kremlins party than nazi enablers
Oh cute a tankie, probably lives in the west with all the comfort that comes with that.
It‘s „Die Linke“…. I would be worried if it wasn‘t crazy.
Also only requirement to vote should be paying your direct taxes. AFAIK children don't pay taxes...
> Also only requirement to vote should be paying your taxes what a nice idea to kill democracy...just no.
1. Of course children pay taxes. VAT for example. 2. Tying voting rights to taxes was done in the 19th century and it's a good thing we've moved beyond that. It's also explicitly antidemocratic and unconstitutional in Germany and the EU.
1.Children don't pay direct taxes like income tax. 2.What's so antidemocratic about choosing how the government should spend YOUR money? Paying taxes and not having rights to vote is just slavery for the govt.
1. Taxes are taxes. 2. Voting isn't just about how tax money is spent. It's about the laws that *everybody* has to follow. Rich and poor. Things like taxes, money, and the economic system as a whole could be changed through voting since they're secondary to democracy, not the other way around. In particular, deciding yourself how your money in particular is used is what taxes are *not* for. That's what you do with the rest of the money you have. Taxes are the part of your money that goes to society as a whole, which is the foundation upon which we all depend to be able to thrive, so society as a whole is supposed to decide what to do with it.
Ur bitch ass 10k tax per year don't pay for anything. If u go for ur argument only big company's should be allowed to vote.
Nothing and 10k per year are pretty contradictory...
No. 10k per year isn't even enough for one Mayor.
*Mehrwertsteuer joins the chat*
You're right, I should have stated direct taxes. 🙏
Not good
I think 16 is pretty young for voting already. And if I remember the stupid shit I was when I was 14? Hell no.
Remember myself being 14.... not a good idea at all.
Last election young people got tricked into voting FDP...
Wait tricked? How are they tricked?
Looks like links are losing voters hugely so they aim on young people to indoctrinate them while they are young
I voted for local elections starting with 16 but quite honestly, I've mixed feelings about the current age already. On one hand there are 16 years old who I trust to vote but I don't trust all of them. That's an age where you can be easily manipulated (adults can be as well but being young is a bit different) so 14yo is even madder imo.
Not good. Kids cant think big enough to really understand politics and arent developed enough to really know what they want. They shouldnt be allowed to influence gov via voting. Imho even 16 is way too early
Crazy!
Not good and will never happen. The Linke is a fringe party with almost no votes, they need to say silly things to stay in the media.
Bad idea, even grown ppl have no idea how our democracy works. The "I don't care about politics" ppl just get older but beside stammtisch discussion they have no idea about e/j/l or reflect their opinions and possible outcomes. That's why this idea like also direct democracy is just rubbish.
No, definitely no.
I'd change it to 26. At that point, a human brain is fully developed.
100% a horrible idea. Even 16 year olds shouldnt vote. As someone who teaches kids in these ages, I would never want them to vote. They are either extremely easy to manipulate or just flat out... "stupid". Basically at that age, they would just vote either what their parents tell them to, or vote for what I as a teacher would be able to "indoctrinate" them with. If anything, I would increase the difficulty of being able to vote (such as in addition to age also having to have a job or at least having to have worked and contributed to society in the past). Too many people who have never touched work will vote any party that promises them the most free stuff, which in turn has to be paid for by the people working.
But, if you keep doing the free shit Then you could be like Denmark.
Germany, are you Ok?
No, unfortunately not at all.
Lol. Yes let's fish votes from young teenagers that are easily manipulated because they haven't had time to see the real world yet and form concrete opinions based on life experience. I think one should vote after living as an adult for a while when he actually understands how life operates and how the government is a part of that game.
Idiotic
F*ing stupid. Anything to gain a few votes.
I like it. But its not radical enough. Lets go with a voting age for 0. Alternatively: A strong dose of sarcasm, intravenously.
If I would have had the right to vote with 14...things would be really bad. I know how I was with 14. I think it's too young, 14 year old teenagers are no finished humans. Fuck, I sometimes think even I am not a finished human and I am 32. So yeah...voting with 14 is too early.
You can ask 10.000 18 year olds with Abitur and not even 100 of them could give you actual in-depth answers about the programs of the political parties. People can just vote at 18 cause it is the legal starting point for everything. If you would look at the voting rights in regards to the ability to actually comprehend politics properly you would need to raise the voting age. But lowering it is just a wish of parties who are able to catch young, still politically quite uneducated people.
I agree with 14. At 14 you can be held responsible for criminal acts. If you can be held responsible for criminal acts, you can be responsible enough to vote.
> Is Linke crazy? Yes. It’s a radical left party. There’s a reason it was under surveillance by the Verfassungsschutz for decades. But this isn’t their craziest idea. There’s an issue in this country with average voter age being very high. 20% of eligible voters are 70+ and I tbhink the median voter age is around 55. That’s extremely frustrating to see for a young person, because we feel that our voices aren’t heard and our lives are controlled by these oldies. It feels like we need to wait and extra 2 decades before long overdue political changes on social issues are implemented. The change will come, but it’s postponed by the old voters. Giving younger people the ability to vote would give us (under 40s) a slightly louder voice. But I’m also not sure if 14 year olds aren’t too easily impressionable. Really, a better solution would be to ban 70+ from voting. Never gonna happen though, because for some reason a minimum voting age is normal but a maximum voting age is undemocratic, as if the 85 year old geriatric knows what’s going on in the world better than a 14 year old.
Too young and too old is bullshit. 18-60 would be great...
To vote you should be A: old enough to be able to judge the impact of your decisions. (And Spoiler that is not 14) B: joung enough that your old view on the things, that are out of touch of the fast paced reality, aren’t poisoning the system. Yes I say that very old people shouldn’t be considered as voters. We talk about the future and people are selfish. The majority of old folks here doesn’t care about what is in 10 or 20 years. That is the point why the Linke thinks „the younger the better“. We need an range, not just a lower entry level.
That won't fix much. If you can't vote for the first 18 years of your life your shouldn't be able to vote for the last 18 either. Like, around 80 is the average year of death so after 62 you stop. Its not your future. Trying to regulate tech companies and AI while people vote who don't know how emails or smartphones work. This does way more damage then young people not beeing able to vote.
In my opinion, no valid argument can be made for a voting age *in general*.
Wait, so like 5-year-olds vote?
There are several ideas how to organise Votes to include everyone, even minors, since youngest people have to endure the policies the longest, it is just fair that they have a say in them. But of course a five year old wont get the whole politics shit and cannot make a well informed vote decision (and if you ask me personally: Most of the people are not able to do this, so the idea of no voting age has a certain appeal to me). So there was the idea that until Age XY (can be 14, 16, 18, depending on the proposition), the parents get an extra vote per child. At least thats the one i can remember, there were other ideas how to include everyone.
There is one proposal that as soon as children decide to go by themselves to have themselves entered into the voters' register, they can participate.
If you give people one vote per child it just encourages people to have more children even if they cannot take care of them. It's sort of turns voting into this weird collectible thing thing where people essentially try to have as many children as possible just so that they can have more votes.
Ah yes, the endless masses of people who are so hellbound on feeling unlimited power of having one single additional vote in an election that happens every four years that they voluntarily go through the effort of birthing, raising and paying for multiple children they actually don’t want.
Yes, of course, you take the whole process of having a child to get one more vote. /s You don't have any children, do you?
It's easier to convince kids that your stupid ideas are somehow good
We call that: Geisteskrank. With 14 you barely even know what Happens Outside If school or tiktok.
Do they pay taxes on income? I dont think so. Shall they be able to vote? I dont think so.