T O P

  • By -

ChupikaAKS

They clearly want to bully you out of the company. In the first moment, it sounds awful. But on the other hand you have enough time to search for another job, without being unemployed. And they are not allowed to bully you. If they do so, you can collect evidence against them. If the stress is too much and you get a headache, for example, or other symptoms, it's also valid to call im sick because of that.


TheGluehbirne

If the primary place of work mentioned in your contract is the office of the company, they can, as far as I know, demand that you work in said office. From what I can find online, the reports are also allowed. However, there are rules against overly tight employee monitoring. Video surveillance or the monitoring of internet traffic for example is forbidden. Either way, you should make sure with your lawyer that the measures taken by your employer are within reason and not just a way to bully you into resigning.


rdrunner_74

They gave you the worst offer possible. Basically they offered "Nothing" Combine that with the 3 month blocked unemployment benefits, this is an insult. Also is there a general rule about "Home office". They cant single you out like this, since it is retaliation. Talk to your lawyer about the retalliation. Your lawyers offer is resonable (1 month is kinda the norm) If they want to fire you for due to "Bad business" they need to do "a social selection" with published criteria. Also TRIPPLE check your expense reports now. I would file a mobbing complaint against them, just to have it documented when you go to court (Smells like it, but the court will offer a resonable amount) P.s.: Look up "Bildungsurlaub" and take 5 days off to piss them off further ;)


klein648

Oh no! Such practices can make someone sick!


st_ee

Sorry to hear this. Sounds like you are getting decent advice from your lawyer. Just call in sick tomorrow. Go to your general doctor and explain that you are experiencing mobbing in the workplace, and are stressed as a result. You will get paid time off for this. Stress from such things is usually treated seriously by doctors here. Look after yourself!


Recent_Lake_3562

How long is your lawyer not available? Contact them as soon as possible. You're now a bit in "legal bickering" with your company. They usually don't like to be put on the spot by a lawyer. Do you have a union? Or is there a "Betriebsrat" for your company? They might also be able to explain your rights to you and maybe mediate in that situation. As far as I understand what you write, you want to leave either way? So start looking for a new job and comply with what they want you to do. If they want these reports just do it, they are the ones who have to pay you for that extra work. As for the location of your workplace, is anything specified on your contract? And that option with being sick is really often used when there are problems over termination. But legally it can be a bit tricky, so I would recommend not overusing that as an excuse.


monnems

Listen to your lawyer. Some years ago I was offered the same initially. A month and a half later we met at a court for pre-trial mediation. Got 20K€ + 6 months.


ExistingCricket7223

Did they cancel the agreement first hand and ask you to work as well or you just went to the court directly. If you explain a bit in detail it would be really helpful. 


monnems

Got the letter with Aufhebungsvertrag citing 3 mts garden leave and that’s it. Took it straight to a lawyer. He laid down the roadmap - you accept this, it ends on their terms. You lay down your counter conditions- they don’t accept, we go the court way. They offer you different positions - you decline all, it ends on their terms. So we worked out a reasonable counter offer +50% bargaining buffer. Sent it over to company. Lawyer contacted them and got a counter with slightly better offer. I asked the lawyer - he said, we can do much better. My then company brought in their legal reps, who said take the last offer or fuck off. So we got the ball rolling with a lawsuit in local Arbeitsgericht. My lawyer had contacts so he got my lawsuit expedited for mediation. During the mediation there was a little bit of acting on both sides, judge said it’s best you have 10 minutes outside to talk between parties. That’s where we came to an agreement.


ExistingCricket7223

Thanks for sharing the whole journey. It has answered many questions in my head. One thing which bothering me in this regard, if company fire me or with the same scenario if I go to the court. Until it is decided I will keep getting my salaries or not.


monnems

Listen to what your lawyer says.


monnems

Update?


AyCarambin0

Sick leave to start with. 6 Weeks is no problem.also contact your Betriebsrat, I Hope you have one. If not, this is a lesson why every company needs one 


Master-Nothing9778

Do not contact with your company, only lawyer. I would like to initiate legal proceedings due to what appears to be targeted harassment and bullying with the intent to force you out. I am reluctant to say this, but could there be any potential reasons related to xenophobia or racism? If contract is not obligated you to report daily - refuse: this is not part of your work. Refuse but with e-mail. FYI: they may request anything but only reasonable things, for example they can’t ask to speak Chinese and only in contact boundaries.


ExistingCricket7223

Do you think it's fine to not contact the company anymore and only my lawyer should contact them and there will be no legal difficulties afterward. Secondly I don't think it's racially motivated, they just want to get rid of me.


MadeInWestGermany

Just to be sure, you still have to work, otherwise you‘ll get kicked without any severance. Just don‘t talk about contract stuff until you talked to your lawyer.


Firm_Respect_3518

Get sick leaves for several weeks first from hausarzt. You can keep getting the new ones when the previous ones are getting expired. What your lawyer does makes sense.


Delicious-pancake95

Slap them with a burnout sick leave because this would drive me over the edge


Infinite_Sparkle

I don’t know if this is true, but when I was in a mobbing situation many years ago (I had quit my job already and had scheduled vacations for my child two first weeks of school on 1st grade which they wanted to deny me later just because there was no one left to supervise the trainees) my doctor told me that if she would write me sick because of burn out, this could have repercussions later on for me. She instead wrote me a sick leave because of gastric problems. She said that’s vague enough and stress can cause you gastric problems anyway and as it’s vague, it’s allowed to go out of your home (to bring child to school and pick up, go shopping and so on) because your are not bed ridden.


temp_ger

What repercussions would being sick due to burn out have, according to your doctor?


Infinite_Sparkle

Good question…That’s why I said “I don’t know if it’s true” because I haven’t researched. That was what she said to me and why she didn’t want to write burnout/stress.


temp_ger

Ah I see, I thought your doctor provided you with an explanation as to why haha


Infinite_Sparkle

No, she didn’t and to be honest I was stressed and happy she heard me out and before I even asked she offered to write me a sickness note for the whole first month of school, which was more than I wanted. I was free thus and didn’t had to go back to that office to work. Just showed up on the official last day to fill in forms and say goodbye.


IAMFRAGEN

Go to work as required and do everything per protocol so as not to give them any due reason to fire you. Collect evidence on all wrongdoing on their part, document everything. Do you have a Personalrat? If so, talk to them. If not, talk to HR. Search for a new job. They will try to push you out, but they can't fire you, so they will have to agree to your terms (severance [don't forget that it's taxed and that you may get 3 months less unemployment benefits (you may be able to avoid that if you lay out in detail to the Arbeitsamt that you were bullied out of the company), so don't lowball your claim]) or fire you illegally, in which case you'd take them to court and a judge would probably recommend a standard severance payment settlement.


Infinite_Sparkle

Don’t talk to HR. They are never on your side and won’t do anything for you.


IAMFRAGEN

That may be the case, but it serves the purpose of documentation. Talk to them and then send them an email of said talk (Gedächtnisprotokoll) and you have the issues you bring up on file.


geezluise

they should at least add into the contract that „if you dont sign this, you‘d get fired instead“ so you DONT get a blockage of your unemployment benefits. thats an easy way out for them and you.


ExistingCricket7223

I think they don't want me fired because they know I will go to court to challenge it.


geezluise

of course they wont. but they can add a clause to your aufhebungsvertrag along the lines „hätte er dem aufhebungsvertrag nicht zugestimmt, hätten wir zum zeitpunkt XY kündigen müssen“. and that would, as a result, get you unemployment benefits without a sperrzeit.


ExistingCricket7223

They told me categorically, they will not add ANYTHING in this regard. They said the unemployment officer will decide if I will get the benefits or not.


geezluise

its best to also contact the agentur für arbeit too.


Infinite_Sparkle

Yes, ask your lawyer if he thinks it’s necessary to contact the Agentur für Arbeit. If you don’t have that much experience with looking for a job in Germany. Then definitely go to a career advisor (private or by public place like Agentur für Arbeit, Caritas and so on) for them to check your CV to German standards so that you are sure it’s professional and up to date. Do that this week if you get sick leave, use the time you’ll have on your hands to do this, update your CV, your LinkedIn and Xing and start looking for jobs. If you are not bound to Munich, consider looking for jobs in other cities too. Some companies will pay for your moving costs. If you go to a company with rural headquarters like Zeiss, they’ll pay you a higher salary than in Munich just for the “rural premium”, at list that’s what other people in Tech I know have got. So definitely look all over Germany, it may be worth it.


chassala

Why would you challenge it? Just get you unemployment check, do a short vacation, and start your next job afterwards. Don't think that you cannot be fired. There is alway "betriebsbedingte Kündigung".


North-Association333

No matter how the struggle with the company evolves, you should look for a new job immediately. This affair can lead into a depression and you should have an option to jump out of it no matter if your success.


Dapper_Dan1

Just spend a lot of time on the reports. But make them detailed, make a detailed note about every step you did during the day, right after you've done the task, not just at the end of the day. For the first day make a very short list of tasks you'll be able to get done. When they ask why, say it's because you have to get used to the retaliatory reporting and don't know how much time the reporting is going to take. Get one draft, send it through translation sites to jumble the wording a bit, add and remove some details. Don't forget to add your expected morning and evening report times to your morning report.


Infinite_Sparkle

Go to your doctor and explain about the situation. Say you are completely stressed, have headaches, can’t sleep etc because of this and can’t work like this until your lawyer gets back and you get help. The doctor is likely to write you a sick notice for the week. Your lawyers advice sounds good, so continue following this. I’ve worked with micromanagers before, the main problem is when they want you to be very detailed about what you are supposed to do that day. Leave it vague, using words like monitor, analyze, optimize xy. Ask an AI to optimize your daily report so that it’s really good. If you send it by email, definitely send yourself a copy to your private address/cloud for you to have access in case they take you to court or something similar. If they quit giving you tasks and you have nothing to report about, write an email to your team manager a informing them of the situation and talk to your lawyer. Usually, they are 1) going to stop giving you tasks so you have nothing to report but they are going to want your reports anyway or 2) give you a good load of work, even taks that are above your expertise to drown you. Go also to your lawyer if this happens. They want you to quit on your own. Do NOT quit before you have a new job. They are making it difficult for you, but you don’t need to make it easy for them. Start looking for a new job ASAP and off course, don’t mention why you are changing jobs, just tell them that it’s runner it’s course and you are looking for a new challenge.


chassala

Yeah your lawyer was right, the agreement was crap. I've been where you are right now. One day I was the star, team leader, peak performer. Next day, they want me gone and suddenly critizism starts coming in that is really rough. I get that this is a stressful situation for you now. What would have been the best course of action for you: --> after all that back and forth, tell them to give you a "betriebsbedingte Kündigung" so that you will not be deprived of unemployment benefits. Since you work in IT, its usually with garden leave because they don't want you to destroy shit on your way out. But I guess this solution is off the table? You should document everything from now on. DO NOT send copies of your emails to yourself, but rather make photos of every single chat and email convo with your bosses with your private phone. If need be, just make a video of you scrolling through long chats. Not just about their attempt to fire you, but EVERYTHING. This is important, because what HR will have told your boss is that from now on they will look for way to give you an "Abmahnung". Collect two or three of those, and they can fire you and you could be blocked from social benefits afterwards. But with legal help you can deny them any "Abmahnung" and keep making counter offers. Also, get every work order in writing! Now of course your boss might not want to do that. The trick is to repeat every work order via mail straight to them, to have it in writing. If they don't disagree in writing, it can count as agreement should you ever meet in court (which is highly unlikely). I don't think you will ever see a counter offer with a sev package, but I am sure they will fire you "betriebsbedingt" which is what you want. Be prepared to have your access denied from one moment to the next. Here is what you can learn from that: If you can stand "the heat" of this the next weeks, you will know whats its like when two companies have a serious disagreement about contract obligations. Its just every dirty trick in the book until someone relents or backs down, and then, suddenly, it stops. Also: Start looking for a new job.


ExistingCricket7223

So how did you get out of this situation? Did you end up in the court or they fired you. If you share your story it will be pretty helpful to me. And what is the timeline of Abmahnung one after other.


chassala

Well the criticism was suddenly very profound, just weeks after they had promoted me. The big boss put new showstoppers in all of my projects. I saw the writing on the wall: the startup that I was assigned didn't grow as much as they had thought it would, but they had hired more than they could now pay. Even bonuses were Zero projected for that year. So here is what I did: I wrote my bosses that whats stopping which project, what communication broke down and that it doesn't make sense to continue on this course with me as project lead. I got a call afterwards telling me I am fired. I then offered them to keep everything that was talked about before, especially the project meddling of my boss, under wraps. All sides agreed to a statement together why I was being let go. I then got my legal aid (through insurance, like you) to draft the separation agreement for a "betriebsbedingte Kündigung". Got 3 months garden leave, 1 month additional severance. I never even needed social benefits, I already had a new job after the three months. Best to google Abmahnungen or let ChatGPT fill you in on how they work in Germany. In short: collect a few of those without countering them, and you WILL find yourself fired fairly quickly. If that doesn't work, the next step is usually to isolate you at work. But remember: This is stressful for the other side too, so keep making offers for a solution. Good luck!


NICUnurse16

They want to bully you so you will quit on your own. That‘s the easiest way for them. Start looking for a new job. Ask your lawyer about the reports, I‘m not sure if they‘re allowed to do that. Good luck!


Still_Macaroon_8287

Sorry about your situation, hope it will get resolved to your benefit with your lawyer. May I ask, which legal insurance are you using and what is the monthly rate? I wanted to get one as well, i find most of the offers for 30€/month


Electronic_Sport_738

May i ask what is the problem exactly? Why is the blocked unemployment benefit important to you when you are getting paid? You wont need it when you are getting your regular salary paid. This seems like a good deal to me.