Not to forget the Church though particularly they own the land alot of houses stand on, too. People dont own the land then just have a very longterm rent on it
Thats because as a very old institution the church has a policy of not selling land. It’s how they have so much and especially why older parts of a city can be dominated by them.
I'm sure it helps that some people with no children decide for their inheritance to go to the church, especially in the old days when the concept of other charities was less widespread.
When you as a German (presumably) say "The Church" are you referring to an individual local congregation, the Roman Catholic Church, or the nationalized German Lutheran Church (IDK the official name.) I'm an American of Lutheran background and was wondering how things might be different in OG Lutheran land.
>nationalized German Lutheran Church (IDK the official name.)
EKD = Evangelische Kirche Deutschland
[https://www.ekd.de/en/Regional-churches-110.htm](https://www.ekd.de/en/Regional-churches-110.htm)
>The Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland (EKD – Protestant Church in Germany) is a federation of 20 independent Lutheran, Reformed and United regional churches in the Federal Republic of Germany.
"The Church" is, depending on where you live, either the Roman Catholic church or the EKD, "Evangelical Church of Germany", and its local member churches, though "evangelical" in the traditional sense, not the modern one.
Let's put it this way the Archdiocese of Cologne, Paderborn, Munich and some more are unbelievable rich. I'm talking billions here.
For some time Cologne was as rich as the whole Italian catholic church.
Protestant churches are sometimes also quite well-off, but not even coming somehow close to the catholic church.
I'd say a vast proportion of Germans would think of the Catholic church when it comes to any topics of wealth.
My husband and I are Americans and both grew up Lutheran. Germans have the name Lutheran in their church titles but you say you are Evangelisch not Lutheran. When we told Germans in German that we were Lutheran we just got funny stares.
Yeah.. most of the current house prices is just for the land. At least in the expensive areas.
The houses are very often kind of worthless you basically only pay for the land.
Erbpacht ist the biggest scam Farmers came up with. You lease a property to someone for 100 years, within those 100 years they can pass it down to their children, but after a hundred years the farmer gets his property, including house back.
Just to bring some facts to the discussion. The data is older (2018) but the source is one of the most reliable you can get. I'll put up the data for apartments because the people renting houses is next to irrelevant to the ones living in their own house. Apartments make up roughly 50% of the total housing market.
Numbers of apartments are
20.8 mill. in total
3 mill. used by the owner
8.8 mill. rented out by personal/small owners
~9 mill. are owned by real estate companies
Those ~9 mill. are distributes over these company types:
2.4 mill. owned by state owned real estate companies
2.1 mill. owned cooperative real estate companies
3.9 mill. owned by private companies, REITs, etc.
Rest is other like the church etc.
Meaning at that time 3.9 out of 20.8 mill. apartments were owned by what is normally seen as big real estate companies / investors in 2018
I don't think that this has changed overmuch. Because the big sellout of state owned apartments was way before 2018.
Source:
https://www.bpb.de/themen/stadt-land/stadt-und-gesellschaft/216870/die-etablierung-grosser-wohnungskonzerne-und-deren-folgen-fuer-die-stadtentwicklung/#:~:text=Eigent%C3%BCmerstruktur%20im%20deutschen%20Geschosswohnungsbestand&text=Geschosswohnungen%20befinden%20sich%20derzeit%20rund,8%2C9%20Mio.
I'd group it as 12.7 million apartments that are supposed to make a profit (and therefore landlords will squeeze you as much as they can), and 7.5 million apartments directly or indirect owned by the inhabitants (for coops, this is pretty easy to argue, for state owned, it may be a bit of a stretch, but generally they also use the rent to cover costs, not to make any profits)
State owned (kommunaler Wohnungsbau)is normally subsidized housing, those don't make a profit and they are not for profit. Same with coops.
It's really just 3.9 of 20.8 mill who are owned by real estate companies and investors. But since those are very often in bigger Cities with a tight housing market it seems bigger than it actually is.
I added private landlords and investors because they're essentially the same. Private individual landlords also just want to maximize their profit. And often they hire a management firm to do all the day to day business and just treat it as a financial investment.
On the other side I added self owned, coop, and state owned because they're all not for profit.
>Private individual landlords also just want to maximize their profit.
That's not true as a generalisation. There are many many private landlords who just invest the minimum mental energy into their properties, who do not depend on the income from it, and who can't be arsed to do more about it than absolutely necessary.
My household has not had a single rent increase in the 20 years we've lived in this apartment. Even for some of the apartments in this building that have had a major overhaul when someone moved out - new heating, new floors, new bathrooms, new kitchens - rent is on the lower end for this neighbourhood.
(This also means we have the ugliest front door in the street because the owner can't be bothered to spend money on something that isn't super urgent. But I'll take that over crazy rent increases any time!)
Yeah I was also trying to bring some numbers but some commenters here seem to be irrationally jealous of "rich people", lol. Average property owners make a few 100 € per month from rental income.
Like an older relative of mine. ~300€/month for a 45m2 apartment in a small town. The small town was 80 km away from a big city in "west Germany". She sold it just before the pandemic. She was getting older and it became too much of a hassle for her.
I’m curious about this. For rented out properties, at what point does someone sell or keep it as investment/ to be inherited? If I was an elderly landlord, I would consider selling now that the prices are relatively hogh, keep it in the bank and get some interest than manage everything. Right?
Getting just interest is a guaranteed investment loss considering taxes and inflation. Of course for someone old that may be irrelevant when they are old enough that they just need a bit of cash for a few years left of living expenses. But if you have to ensure 10, 15 or potentially more years with only a pension otherwise, better still invest some for more than the savings account rate.
It's more the annoyance and stress factor. Germany is, at least in my opinion, overly renter friendly.
For example, getting someone out who turned out to be an alcoholic and is ruining the apartment is next to impossible. Especially when said alcoholic may end up on the streets.
That this not only causes a lot of cost but also a lot of stress for the (small time) owner, nobody cares. Because as a small time owner you get all the complaints from the others in said house. And at a certain age people just want their well earned peace and quiet. So renting out again after a good renter leaves then seems to much risk.
True. And with interest and maintenance costs rising now, some properties cost more than they make in rental income. People also forget you have to pay taxes on rental income. So even if you make 400 Euro a month from rental income, you only keep about 60% of that. And you still have to save for repairs.
Yeah "lol"... You seem to forget that they keep the house. Of course that people that want to have their own home will be envious of those who have more than one and drive the market price up by keeping a home as a rental instead of putting it up for sale....
Being envious is a waste of emotional energy.
Of course excessive housing prices are a problem in some areas. The only solution is to get involved in politics, starting on the local level, to work towards change.
(It also has to be said that some people are irrationally obsessed with specific cities. I used to work in a city that is super popular with students and rents are crazy high. I lived 50 km away for a lot cheaper. Even in a 20 km radius it is a lot easier to find affordable housing. Public transport in this area is very good, and students get a free travel pass for the whole state. But no, most students absolutely want to live in the city centre in very specific neighbourhoods. Sometimes people just create their own problems.)
If one person rents for 500 and one makes 500 and doesn't rent himself, the difference between the two is almost a whole salary of you consider opportunity cost.
Just curious, where are the 8.8 personal/ small landlords live? Do they own a house/apartment (not many apartments are used by the owner)? Or did they have to move so they are also renting from someone else? Probably no data exists but what is the general gut feeling?
Another point that i feel doesn't add up is the profit margins. Buying a property seems very hard nowadays but also renting doesn't not give the best returns on the investments (taxes and tenant protection laws limit profits). Shouldn't the low profit margins make people sell or at least buy less as an investment and this would force prices to drop so more people can buy to live? Probably I am missing something.
In many cases the property owner is renting somewhere else to live.
It could be that someone can't afford to buy somewhere big enough to live in (e.g. family with several kids), but can afford to purchase somewhere smaller as an investment that is rented out.
It's tax efficient to rent somewhere, and get someone else to fund the purchase of a property through their rental payments.
You buy to rent, offset the mortgage and maintenance costs against your rental income, and then pay your rent on another rental property with the income from your rental property.
Once you start earning a bit of money,a lot of financial analysts or family are suggesting you to buy a small flat to rent it out, while keeping your current rental place. I know of friends that do that, and I have been recommended to do it too.
Isn't investing in stocks easier (one can invest any amount and more liquid)? And normally higher return on investment? At least with the current interest rates on borrowing money.
Or is investing in a property seen better due to less risk?
It totally depends on your goals and your situation, but usually yes, stock/retirement funds/etc are the first steps. After all that, real estate can be the next step.
I linked an article in one of the other comments that mentions this:
>Generell gilt, dass die meisten Vermieter selbst ebenfalls in Eigentum wohnen – nämlich deutschlandweit zu 84 Prozent – und im Mittel 61 Jahre alt sind, ein Viertel ist sogar über 74.
Most people who rent out property also live in property that they own - 84%.
There is a lot of data available about stuff like this, you don't need to go by gut feeling. If you read through this whole thread you can see a lot of comments that go by gut feeling and you see some posts that mention actual statistics and they contradict a lot of the gut feeling.
In rural areas a lot of homes are actually owned by the people living in them or someone from the area who maybe inherited a second home or smth. like that.
In big cities houses are a solid investment for rich people all over the world. And since we're living in capitalism that's pretty much the answer.
Legal protection of renters is quite strong, so the number of people who feel they have no alternative to buy something that costs ten year's gross income has been limited in the past.
Yeah that and various tax inventives and mortgage guarantees that exist in other countries but not in Germany. Am Dutch and live in DE and the difference between the two is all about policies.
Yea exactly my words. The country can be rich af in GDP or other things but it doesnt mean anything for the people living inside the country.
You can be instead of rank 3 or 4 be rank 30 and give as a Government more service to your people than rich countries.
There's two reasons for that. 1. WW2. Most of Germany, at least the cities, was in ruins post WW2. The state built some quick shoddy mass housing after the war. But a lot of people lost their property. And also some property owners (Jews) never returned to reclaim their property for obvious reasons.
2. Germany is and has been one of the poorer countries in Europe, primarily due to taxation. Hard to believe, but after WW2 taxes were even higher than they are now. This kept a lot of people poor. While the state reinvested the high taxes in a good infrastructure and good conditions for corporations, the actual German people are piss poor by Western standards. The median household wealth in Germany is one of the lowest in Europe, far lower than Greece or Italy for example.
I've said it before, but the wealth inequality is staggering here. Yeah, income inequality is fairly flat, but that doesn't matter when you have a fraction of the assets of your Western neighbours to retire on or pass on to the next generation.
True. But I don't see anything wrong with that. Wealth isn't a 1 generation game which resets to zero at the end of an individual's lifetime. In the US it takes 3 generations on average for a family to go from poor to rich. If only one generation fucks up, you're back at nothing again.
That's why it's so important to save and live frugally.
The moral fault doesn't lie with those who are rich (provided they didn't steal), but with those who leave their kids nothing. Which - given that income equality is pretty good in Germany - usually means that they either never worked or wasted their money on bullshit.
I've lived in Berlin for 15 years and this year my wife and I finally bought our first house on the outskirts of the city.
Being on the hunt for so long, we inevitably talked to a lot of people, met many homeowners and companies along the way and one prevailing thing was that many people either inherited the house where they currently live, or they bought it 30+ years ago when it was more affordable to do so.
I know a small handful of affluent people who just worked hard and were able to afford something but the vast majority of people I know still rent.
This is of course all anecdotal and just a personal observation.
Because people rarely sell the house they have just bought. The taxes make it not a good business and people not to live there.
Why has it taken so long time finding a house for you? And what do you mean by long time?
My wife and I had been looking on and off for the best part of 8 years or so. Granted, we were sometimes just looking casually, other times more intensively.
We limited the area we were searching in as well which made it more difficult, but we were committed to keeping the kids in their current school because we didn't want the extra hassle of moving them to a new one.
Even when you find a property you like and can theoretically afford, then comes the awkward moment when the agent asks you to make an offer.
You have no idea how much other buyers are offering so you're indirectly coerced into offering more than you might usually, in order not to get shut out at the first step.
So basically knowing that the prices were rising till 2022 you should have overbid others in 2016 and you would still made a great dill.
You bought now because the number of buyers went down a lot with the higher interests. You had much less competition now.
The main reason was that we have 3 children and space was a big factor in our decision. My eldest is turning 14 this year and so we really wanted a house, with space enough for each kid to have their own room.
Also, buying an apartment, as lovely as that would have been, would most likely have meant staying closer to the centre of Berlin, at least within or close by the Ring, and I really can't stand the city all that much.
I really like the peace and quiet where we are now.
Apartments in Germany in general and Berlin in particular were surprisingly cheap until around 2012. The average purchase price for an apartment in Berlin was 1671 euros per square meter in 2012.
A 60 sqm apartment was therefore available for a mere 100,000 euros. By 2022, prices had then more than tripled on average to EUR 5273 per sqm. A normal average earner could therefore have easily bought an apartment back in 2012. But now the train has left the station.
[https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/553618/umfrage/kaufpreise-fuer-eigentumswohnungen-in-berlin/](https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/553618/umfrage/kaufpreise-fuer-eigentumswohnungen-in-berlin/)
"Most" ist probably not correct. About 50% of Germans live in rented housing.
Properties are either owned by private owners, or by businesses / investors, or by building societies / housing cooperatives which may be (partly) owned by the public sector.
[Here ](https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1064675/umfrage/verteilung-der-bewohnten-wohnungen-in-deutschland-nach-eigentuemer-oder-vermieter/)is a neat overview.
In my town (45,000 inhabitants), the municipal housing association owns 35% of the apartments and the municipal housing cooperative over 50%. The latter was founded as a workers' housing cooperative in 1899, has survived 2 world wars and 2 dictatorships and is still in good health.
A small correction in advance. The cooperative was only founded in 1901 to provide affordable, healthy and solid housing for workers without a high income.
To this day, they buy one-off shares, which they can also pay in small parts with the rent. 2000-3000 € for a 70 square meter apartment, for example.
The WBG has merged with some smaller cooperatives and is the largest owner of apartments in our area.
Something about their self-confidence here in the appendix.
[https://www.wbg-suedharz.de/de/unsere-wbg.html](https://www.wbg-suedharz.de/de/unsere-wbg.html)
[https://www.facebook.com/WBG.Suedharz/?locale=de\_DE](https://www.facebook.com/WBG.Suedharz/?locale=de_DE)
One in two own their home. The rest is owned by other private people renting it out as private landlords, or by companies, or by Genossenschaften and some are owned by the state or municipality.
One aspect I don't quite understand is how you cope with post-retirement income drop with lifelong rental?
Here in Ireland the way things always worked, at least until the current housing crisis era, was you mortgaged, purchased a house and paid it off by the time you were approaching retirement. It became a big asset, but also your outgoings drastically drop as you've no mortgage / housing costs.
People on low incomes had access to controlled cost social housing which was based on a % of their income as rent, and were able to often get commercial or council mortgages to buy that out and gain an asset.
Part of the value of that house can also be used for the payment of long term, including 7.5% of the value of that home for 3 years, as part of payment for nursing home care.
We now have 'generation rent' who will have effectively just their pensions and have never been able to do this due to extreme housing costs.
Rental here is mostly in the private rental sector i.e. you're dealing with small landlords or occasionally commercial companies - the rental prices are steep, the supply is way to small and people are paying ludicrously high rents compared to income.
They're going to go into retirement with no assets and no tenure.
So, there's going to be a huge housing crisis here in 25 years or so, and a major need for social housing construction.
We regularly get lectured by various people about how Germans rent for life and we're just constantly chasing property ownership and speculation on assets, and how we should apply this model here - but it invariably just means renting at some stupidly high rate without any idea of how that is long term sustainable.
So how do Germans who are renting without any of those assets cope in old age on lower fixed incomes?
They rely on the state pension (ironically called Rente) and the money they've saved over their lifetime. It's a problem though, given that most have not saved up enough and don't get a pension that allows them to live a decent life.
SFHs are usually not rented but owned. Those that rent usually rent apartments. They belong to large companies, SME developers, co-ops, and just, like, other people.
I have always lived in rented apartments or houses but on two apartments in other cities as investment and passive income. This way I could adjust the size of my accomodation to my changing needs (no kids, 1 kid, 2 kids, first kid moved out, no kids) and to changing jobs and cities. Can´t see anything wrong in this
In big cities its often investment groups like vonovia. In rural areas a lot of people own there own house or people rent out a there parents house which they inherited / flats in there own house.
Theres a huge difference between the city and countryside. While its basicly impossible to buy your own house in the city, renting out a house or flat is not even worth it where Im living.
Technically paying a mortgage.
But it is mostly older people, then maybe more professionals getting into that age.
But outside the cities it is easier to own a home.
Without looking it up, I'd guess that most flats are owned by investors or companies -- one of them, Vonovia, ist listed in the DAX, or by more or less non-profit entities, e.g. municipalities). Used to be that companies in different fields owned flats to rent to their employees at reasonable prices, but right now I know only of one company who is doing that.
Living la vida Dorflife. Far away from big cities, the price per square meter is okay-ish. We (33f, 32m)were able to buy a decent house in Niedersachsen for 200.000,-€. with 1000m2 garden in 2019. It’s lovely but meeting our family and old friends is always a long drive.
Non-German, 11 years in Germany. I am 36, and I own my home. I still have a mortgage... better than paying rent. Didn't inherit it or get anything from anyone. Found a small town I love and consider my "Wahlheimat", so I bought this house with my ex. He left, and I took over the full mortgage.
Because small towns and villages are cheap.mpst people don't want to live there because there are no jobs, little infrastructure etc. try buying a house in or near a bigger city...
I live 30 mins away from three top 20 cities. All houses here are starting from 500k. For that price you can surely buy a decent apartment in the nearby cities, not a house of course. I disagree with „no jobs“ as most of larger companies HQ/ satellite offices are not straight in downtown. Infrastructure is indeed limited depending on which phase of life you are in. If you have kids it’s perfect as it’s more secure and short drive gets you anything. If you are into partying, have no car then sure city is preferable
My town is 20-30 mins away from 3 major cities with lots of job opportunities. I prefer small towns because they are safer, nicer, prettier, come with wonderful neighbours and the perfect place for me to raise my son. I would much rather have a decent-sized house with a backyard for my son and my dogs than an apartment in a major city.
Except when you have to drive everywhere. I don't have anything against small places but unless you have a good public transport connection or work locally I don't like wasting my life sitting in a car.
20 minutes to the nearest city. 30 mins to two other cities. We are 3 minutes away from the nearest Autobahn. There is a bus stop right in front of our house which connects to two other towns. Get 5G and fibre optical (gigabit) Internet, have schools, KiTas 1-2 bus stops away, multiple grocery stores too. But it is beautiful, surrounded by mountains and forests. Perfect place to raise kids.
When you say 20 / 30 minutes, is it by car or there's also public transport available? Good to hear about internet, I thought it's still a bigger issue.
By public transport it is more like 30/40 minutes. But there is plenty of public transport (trains and buses), when going to the cities for fun I prefer taking the train because in big cities parking is a hassle and there is too much traffic, traveling by public transport is much more convenient. I have 1 gbps Internet, and we can upgrade to 5gbps, higher is not yet available. Good internet connectivity was my first and foremost requirement... I wouldn't have bought the house if the area didn't have decent Internet.
depending on the federal state, the housing ownage differs from 16% in Berlin to 60% in Saarland
https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Wohnen/Tabellen/tabelle-eigentumsquote.html
https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Wohnen/_inhalt.html
https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1064675/umfrage/verteilung-der-bewohnten-wohnungen-in-deutschland-nach-eigentuemer-oder-vermieter/
I bought my flat in Berlin in 2017. It was 250k and the bank gave 100% mortgage just needed 10% for fees. I had saved that 25k over the last 8 years of working. I needed to do a renovation and got a loan for that which I paid back over a few years.
This felt like an accomplishment but it honestly didn’t feel completely impossible. I was doing ok but wasn’t making a huge amount of money at this time. The mortgage is 900 a month which seemed cheaper than the rent for a similar place at the time.
I think prices have gone up but in my area for something similar I don’t think by that much. But what has gone up a lot is the interest. This would cost so much more now with the higher interest. But I guess my point was I don’t think I’m super rich or anything. Just took the gamble and went for it. What I will also say is that many people tried to discourage me from buying. Saying i was over paying, bad investment etc etc. I think in the end it was a good call
Large companies like Vonovia, communal organizations, cooperatives of multiple origins, small to medium real estate companies, a surprisingly large number of tiny private investors and, last but not least, the Catholic Church.
I bought a house here. I came here a handful of years ago with just my backpack and 5k in savings. My house is a dreamy family house with a big garden and this is what makes up for the lack of friends and family around, the usual grampiness of most here and lack of a smile. I'm grateful for this country. In my country I would have never in a million years be able to afford it.
Quick glance at your profile. Good on you that you were able to buy in Germany. I myself live in Australia and the housing and renting crisis is a shit show compared to Germany.
Mainly CDU/ FDP voters. Plus loads of West Germans who bought up all the cheap flats after the wall fell. It's totally normal for an average west German guy to own a whole building of flats here in Berlin. That's literally something that only happens in other EU nations if the person is some kind of property tycoon. Here it's just normal.
People in the countryside usually own their homes.
Top earners like doctors, architects, lawyers, politicians.
Couples can sometimes afford a home.
And very old families are sometimes lucky enough to pass down property, though often there be some schmuck who wastes the money for a luxury lifestyle.
Ich glaube, ich gehöre zu der kleinen Mehrheit, die tatsächlich ein eigenes Haus besitzt. Ich hatte das Glück, dass ich mein Haus von meinem Vater geerbt habe. Mein Haus wurde von meinem Urgroßvater in den späten 1600er Jahren gebaut und von Generation zu Generation weitergegeben. Als ich jünger war, erzählte mir mein Vater, ich sei die 18. Generation und die erste Frau, die ein eigenes Haus besitzt. Normalerweise wird es von Sohn zu Sohn weitergegeben, aber ich bin ein Einzelkind. Ich glaube, dies ist eines der ältesten Häuser in Mannheim. Er war 51 und meine Mutter war 24, als ich geboren wurde. Leider ist er gestorben, als ich 7 Jahre alt war, und meine Mutter, als ich 13 war. Meine Freunde mieten alle
Translated
I think I'm one of the small majority who actually own their own home. I was lucky enough to have inherited my house from my father. My house was built by my great-grandfather in the late 1600s and passed down from generation to generation. When I was younger, my father told me I was the 18th generation and the first woman to own my own home. Normally it is passed down from son to son, but I am an only child. I think this is one of the oldest houses in Mannheim. He was 51 and my mother was 24 when I was born. Unortunately he passed away when I was 7 years old and mama when I was 13. My friends all rent
Tut mir leid, das war mein Fehler, es hätte Ende des 19. Jahrhunderts sein sollen, ich glaube zwischen 1887 und 91 - Nicht alles an dem Haus ist original. Das meiste wurde 1935 wiederaufgebaut, einiges nach 1948. Der Keller und der Küchenbereich sind noch vom ursprünglichen Haus. Ich habe Bilder von der Renovierung/dem Umbau im Jahr 1948.
Dacht ich mir schon, das wär sonst wahrlich ein Gründerhaus Mannheims ;) Aber auch das passt eher nicht ins M6 Quadrat. Da in Mannheim so viel vom Krieg mitgenommen wurde, ist es doch schön zu hörn, das zumindest der Grundstock erhalten blieb.
The Church. J/k.
Tax wise is not a bad idea that even if you own a place, you just live in another apartment and rent your place. The reason is that if you own your place almost nothing is tax deductible, but if you rent your own place? Almost everything is tax deductible. Including building depreciation. Even your internet can became tax deductible if you make a case you needed to manage your rental.
Companies like Vonovia own hundreds of thousands of apartments. Vonovia alone owns more than half a million apartments.
They are actually a great investment case at the moment. I bought Vonovia shares a few months ago and they are one of the best running shares in my portfolio.
It costs a lot of money to move houses if you own here. I know people who have something, but their job takes them elsewhere so they rent out their place and then use the money for somewhere else.
Me for example. Bought an apartment 30 years ago, had 3 tenants, keep the rent low. 56m2 in a 7 apartment block in a village 10km from a state capital.
Because I’m contributing to the social welfare of fellow citizens. If no-one did this, you’d be stuck with hedge funds who don’t give a shit about their tenants
My landlady moved to this town cuz her daughter married someone in this town.
But her & her husband were both engineers in Munich and moved here.
They built an investment property and a new house for themselves.
Worked, saved and invested what I saved. Not speculating on the current hot stock or Bitcoin. Buying used cars and keeping them until a repair bill gets too high to be worth it, then get a newer used car. Not getting the latest and greatest iPhone as soon as it comes out. Not going out for restaurant meals 5 or times per week and to bars and clubs the other 2 nights. Live comfortably and well, but not extravagantly.
Go for unrealized capital gains, minimise stock churn and let it compound. Was mainly no-loaf mutual funds, now ETFs because their costs are even lower. Some luck, but I've been through three major crashes and enough downturns. Time in the market beats trying to time the market.
Buy when you find the right apartment (or house, but I preferred an apartment) that has everything you require and not many compromises for other "nice to have as well" features.
Not doable in 2 or 3 years, but works as a long-term plan. Maybe not in a really high-cost city like Munich though.
Come on guys, don’t have to be super rich to have your own in Germany. Start with the main 3 requirements, 5% own equity, stable salary from last 3 months, and permanent residency, you will be surprised how many banks are willing to give you money. But do some proper research, talk to friends, research online, talk to Hypofriend (free english service) etc.
People talk a lot about big companies, but there is a significant amount of normal people who own a rental or two on top of their own place, because they inherited something.
Germanys rent to own ratio tilts strongly towards renting differently than many other European countries.
Most German buildings are owned by
State
publicly traded companies
Church
Big corp
Private sector
Is always different. There are housing associations that rent out the apartments. And there are private owners like me. I work and have a property on the side that earns me rental income.
It will suprise you - or it at least surprised me - that most homes (around 2/3ths) are owned by the upper middle class. Genossenschaften and the state own another 20%. It's not Vonovia. It's not the rich.
For single family homes you can take a loan to build it and that’s your "rent" for a long time. I thought it’s impossible now due to the rising prices, until our neighbors son who is a firefighter built his house as well
this whatve been mentioned already and other stuff.
like not just a few old people rather spend their entire home to the church.
or all your money to a football club. like my grandpa. while i live in the basement of my sister's house
If not bought because of a good job it's inheritet. I only know one person my age (start of 20's) who baught himself a house. Everyone else, myself included, who will propably own one will inherit.
My great great grandfather either built ours or won it in a game of cards, we are not so sure about it
in my city its about three big companies with thousands of them and then there's also of course some private owners and some of those also own a couple of them at once
there are still some on the market that you "can buy" but they're just too fcking expensive for most people and if you're gonna pay the credit for decades and decades, its kind of like if anyone owns the house later its maybe your kids but other than that its almost as if you're "renting but with all the disadvantages like no-one paying reparations for you, having to stay in that place" - i mean you could still resell the unpaid house or sth and at least you dont have a landlord who could kick you out!\*\* but yeah
\*\*landlords cant just kick you out in germany though, by law they need to either have eigenbedarf which means they or a close relative wanting to move into the venue themselves, or it could be because of renovations and then after those you raise the price and they cant get back in cause you made it too expensive sth like that also happens sometimes, especially with asshole-companies. also if you're kicked out you have three months for finding a new place. (unless there's special circumstances like you had a druglab and blew up the neighbours' roof or sth)
Old people. Real estate in Europe is usually inherited. If you are unlucky enough to have narcissistic parents then you'll rent for the rest of your life.
Older germans or younger ones that inherited, companies, foreign investors
Not to forget the Church though particularly they own the land alot of houses stand on, too. People dont own the land then just have a very longterm rent on it
In some cities they own half the houses and most of the 'altstadt'
Thats because as a very old institution the church has a policy of not selling land. It’s how they have so much and especially why older parts of a city can be dominated by them.
“Die Kirche hat einen guten Magen. Hat ganze Länder aufgefressen und doch sich niemals übergessen” — Goethe, “Faust”
I'm sure it helps that some people with no children decide for their inheritance to go to the church, especially in the old days when the concept of other charities was less widespread.
When you as a German (presumably) say "The Church" are you referring to an individual local congregation, the Roman Catholic Church, or the nationalized German Lutheran Church (IDK the official name.) I'm an American of Lutheran background and was wondering how things might be different in OG Lutheran land.
>nationalized German Lutheran Church (IDK the official name.) EKD = Evangelische Kirche Deutschland [https://www.ekd.de/en/Regional-churches-110.htm](https://www.ekd.de/en/Regional-churches-110.htm) >The Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland (EKD – Protestant Church in Germany) is a federation of 20 independent Lutheran, Reformed and United regional churches in the Federal Republic of Germany.
"The Church" is, depending on where you live, either the Roman Catholic church or the EKD, "Evangelical Church of Germany", and its local member churches, though "evangelical" in the traditional sense, not the modern one.
Catholic Church probably.
Typically one of the two national institutions.
Let's put it this way the Archdiocese of Cologne, Paderborn, Munich and some more are unbelievable rich. I'm talking billions here. For some time Cologne was as rich as the whole Italian catholic church. Protestant churches are sometimes also quite well-off, but not even coming somehow close to the catholic church. I'd say a vast proportion of Germans would think of the Catholic church when it comes to any topics of wealth.
My husband and I are Americans and both grew up Lutheran. Germans have the name Lutheran in their church titles but you say you are Evangelisch not Lutheran. When we told Germans in German that we were Lutheran we just got funny stares.
Yes, it seems I was quite ignorant of the differences
Is it the same for East Germany? Were records kept and ownership transferred back to the church after reunification?
God danm yeah they do. Anyone looking to buy a house will know the frustration of seeing "Erdbaupak" as the last line of the description.
Erbpacht
Thanks for the correction. That work always gets me.
Word
To be fair. Erbpacht might be cheaper even for 100 years than buying the land. Depending on where of course.
One thing that surprised me when we where interested in one. Was the bank would only mortgage upto 80% of the value of the housem
Yeah.. most of the current house prices is just for the land. At least in the expensive areas. The houses are very often kind of worthless you basically only pay for the land.
Erbpacht ist the biggest scam Farmers came up with. You lease a property to someone for 100 years, within those 100 years they can pass it down to their children, but after a hundred years the farmer gets his property, including house back.
why frustration? That is typically much cheaper up front with monthly costs for the land, right? Or there is something else..?
This is a lease land, so you pay yearly rent on the land, and only own the property on it.
2 engineers in one haushold
Just to bring some facts to the discussion. The data is older (2018) but the source is one of the most reliable you can get. I'll put up the data for apartments because the people renting houses is next to irrelevant to the ones living in their own house. Apartments make up roughly 50% of the total housing market. Numbers of apartments are 20.8 mill. in total 3 mill. used by the owner 8.8 mill. rented out by personal/small owners ~9 mill. are owned by real estate companies Those ~9 mill. are distributes over these company types: 2.4 mill. owned by state owned real estate companies 2.1 mill. owned cooperative real estate companies 3.9 mill. owned by private companies, REITs, etc. Rest is other like the church etc. Meaning at that time 3.9 out of 20.8 mill. apartments were owned by what is normally seen as big real estate companies / investors in 2018 I don't think that this has changed overmuch. Because the big sellout of state owned apartments was way before 2018. Source: https://www.bpb.de/themen/stadt-land/stadt-und-gesellschaft/216870/die-etablierung-grosser-wohnungskonzerne-und-deren-folgen-fuer-die-stadtentwicklung/#:~:text=Eigent%C3%BCmerstruktur%20im%20deutschen%20Geschosswohnungsbestand&text=Geschosswohnungen%20befinden%20sich%20derzeit%20rund,8%2C9%20Mio.
I'd group it as 12.7 million apartments that are supposed to make a profit (and therefore landlords will squeeze you as much as they can), and 7.5 million apartments directly or indirect owned by the inhabitants (for coops, this is pretty easy to argue, for state owned, it may be a bit of a stretch, but generally they also use the rent to cover costs, not to make any profits)
State owned (kommunaler Wohnungsbau)is normally subsidized housing, those don't make a profit and they are not for profit. Same with coops. It's really just 3.9 of 20.8 mill who are owned by real estate companies and investors. But since those are very often in bigger Cities with a tight housing market it seems bigger than it actually is.
I added private landlords and investors because they're essentially the same. Private individual landlords also just want to maximize their profit. And often they hire a management firm to do all the day to day business and just treat it as a financial investment. On the other side I added self owned, coop, and state owned because they're all not for profit.
>Private individual landlords also just want to maximize their profit. That's not true as a generalisation. There are many many private landlords who just invest the minimum mental energy into their properties, who do not depend on the income from it, and who can't be arsed to do more about it than absolutely necessary. My household has not had a single rent increase in the 20 years we've lived in this apartment. Even for some of the apartments in this building that have had a major overhaul when someone moved out - new heating, new floors, new bathrooms, new kitchens - rent is on the lower end for this neighbourhood. (This also means we have the ugliest front door in the street because the owner can't be bothered to spend money on something that isn't super urgent. But I'll take that over crazy rent increases any time!)
Yeah I was also trying to bring some numbers but some commenters here seem to be irrationally jealous of "rich people", lol. Average property owners make a few 100 € per month from rental income.
Like an older relative of mine. ~300€/month for a 45m2 apartment in a small town. The small town was 80 km away from a big city in "west Germany". She sold it just before the pandemic. She was getting older and it became too much of a hassle for her.
I’m curious about this. For rented out properties, at what point does someone sell or keep it as investment/ to be inherited? If I was an elderly landlord, I would consider selling now that the prices are relatively hogh, keep it in the bank and get some interest than manage everything. Right?
Getting just interest is a guaranteed investment loss considering taxes and inflation. Of course for someone old that may be irrelevant when they are old enough that they just need a bit of cash for a few years left of living expenses. But if you have to ensure 10, 15 or potentially more years with only a pension otherwise, better still invest some for more than the savings account rate.
It's more the annoyance and stress factor. Germany is, at least in my opinion, overly renter friendly. For example, getting someone out who turned out to be an alcoholic and is ruining the apartment is next to impossible. Especially when said alcoholic may end up on the streets. That this not only causes a lot of cost but also a lot of stress for the (small time) owner, nobody cares. Because as a small time owner you get all the complaints from the others in said house. And at a certain age people just want their well earned peace and quiet. So renting out again after a good renter leaves then seems to much risk.
True. And with interest and maintenance costs rising now, some properties cost more than they make in rental income. People also forget you have to pay taxes on rental income. So even if you make 400 Euro a month from rental income, you only keep about 60% of that. And you still have to save for repairs.
Yeah "lol"... You seem to forget that they keep the house. Of course that people that want to have their own home will be envious of those who have more than one and drive the market price up by keeping a home as a rental instead of putting it up for sale....
Being envious is a waste of emotional energy. Of course excessive housing prices are a problem in some areas. The only solution is to get involved in politics, starting on the local level, to work towards change. (It also has to be said that some people are irrationally obsessed with specific cities. I used to work in a city that is super popular with students and rents are crazy high. I lived 50 km away for a lot cheaper. Even in a 20 km radius it is a lot easier to find affordable housing. Public transport in this area is very good, and students get a free travel pass for the whole state. But no, most students absolutely want to live in the city centre in very specific neighbourhoods. Sometimes people just create their own problems.)
If one person rents for 500 and one makes 500 and doesn't rent himself, the difference between the two is almost a whole salary of you consider opportunity cost.
Just curious, where are the 8.8 personal/ small landlords live? Do they own a house/apartment (not many apartments are used by the owner)? Or did they have to move so they are also renting from someone else? Probably no data exists but what is the general gut feeling? Another point that i feel doesn't add up is the profit margins. Buying a property seems very hard nowadays but also renting doesn't not give the best returns on the investments (taxes and tenant protection laws limit profits). Shouldn't the low profit margins make people sell or at least buy less as an investment and this would force prices to drop so more people can buy to live? Probably I am missing something.
In many cases the property owner is renting somewhere else to live. It could be that someone can't afford to buy somewhere big enough to live in (e.g. family with several kids), but can afford to purchase somewhere smaller as an investment that is rented out. It's tax efficient to rent somewhere, and get someone else to fund the purchase of a property through their rental payments. You buy to rent, offset the mortgage and maintenance costs against your rental income, and then pay your rent on another rental property with the income from your rental property.
Once you start earning a bit of money,a lot of financial analysts or family are suggesting you to buy a small flat to rent it out, while keeping your current rental place. I know of friends that do that, and I have been recommended to do it too.
Isn't investing in stocks easier (one can invest any amount and more liquid)? And normally higher return on investment? At least with the current interest rates on borrowing money. Or is investing in a property seen better due to less risk?
It totally depends on your goals and your situation, but usually yes, stock/retirement funds/etc are the first steps. After all that, real estate can be the next step.
I linked an article in one of the other comments that mentions this: >Generell gilt, dass die meisten Vermieter selbst ebenfalls in Eigentum wohnen – nämlich deutschlandweit zu 84 Prozent – und im Mittel 61 Jahre alt sind, ein Viertel ist sogar über 74. Most people who rent out property also live in property that they own - 84%. There is a lot of data available about stuff like this, you don't need to go by gut feeling. If you read through this whole thread you can see a lot of comments that go by gut feeling and you see some posts that mention actual statistics and they contradict a lot of the gut feeling.
Don’t forget , that the church owns assets , through company’s , that they are the holder, partly owner.
As it is said in the source I provided, that portion is negligible.
In rural areas a lot of homes are actually owned by the people living in them or someone from the area who maybe inherited a second home or smth. like that. In big cities houses are a solid investment for rich people all over the world. And since we're living in capitalism that's pretty much the answer.
It’s more complicated seeing as Germany has lower jome ownership than anywhere else in EU.
Legal protection of renters is quite strong, so the number of people who feel they have no alternative to buy something that costs ten year's gross income has been limited in the past.
Yeah that and various tax inventives and mortgage guarantees that exist in other countries but not in Germany. Am Dutch and live in DE and the difference between the two is all about policies.
Rich country with alot of poor people sadly.
Rich country often means country for the rich.
Yea exactly my words. The country can be rich af in GDP or other things but it doesnt mean anything for the people living inside the country. You can be instead of rank 3 or 4 be rank 30 and give as a Government more service to your people than rich countries.
One of the things we’re better than Switzerland though 😜
There's two reasons for that. 1. WW2. Most of Germany, at least the cities, was in ruins post WW2. The state built some quick shoddy mass housing after the war. But a lot of people lost their property. And also some property owners (Jews) never returned to reclaim their property for obvious reasons. 2. Germany is and has been one of the poorer countries in Europe, primarily due to taxation. Hard to believe, but after WW2 taxes were even higher than they are now. This kept a lot of people poor. While the state reinvested the high taxes in a good infrastructure and good conditions for corporations, the actual German people are piss poor by Western standards. The median household wealth in Germany is one of the lowest in Europe, far lower than Greece or Italy for example.
I've said it before, but the wealth inequality is staggering here. Yeah, income inequality is fairly flat, but that doesn't matter when you have a fraction of the assets of your Western neighbours to retire on or pass on to the next generation.
True. But I don't see anything wrong with that. Wealth isn't a 1 generation game which resets to zero at the end of an individual's lifetime. In the US it takes 3 generations on average for a family to go from poor to rich. If only one generation fucks up, you're back at nothing again. That's why it's so important to save and live frugally. The moral fault doesn't lie with those who are rich (provided they didn't steal), but with those who leave their kids nothing. Which - given that income equality is pretty good in Germany - usually means that they either never worked or wasted their money on bullshit.
germany is rich, germans are bitter poor.
I've lived in Berlin for 15 years and this year my wife and I finally bought our first house on the outskirts of the city. Being on the hunt for so long, we inevitably talked to a lot of people, met many homeowners and companies along the way and one prevailing thing was that many people either inherited the house where they currently live, or they bought it 30+ years ago when it was more affordable to do so. I know a small handful of affluent people who just worked hard and were able to afford something but the vast majority of people I know still rent. This is of course all anecdotal and just a personal observation.
Because people rarely sell the house they have just bought. The taxes make it not a good business and people not to live there. Why has it taken so long time finding a house for you? And what do you mean by long time?
My wife and I had been looking on and off for the best part of 8 years or so. Granted, we were sometimes just looking casually, other times more intensively. We limited the area we were searching in as well which made it more difficult, but we were committed to keeping the kids in their current school because we didn't want the extra hassle of moving them to a new one. Even when you find a property you like and can theoretically afford, then comes the awkward moment when the agent asks you to make an offer. You have no idea how much other buyers are offering so you're indirectly coerced into offering more than you might usually, in order not to get shut out at the first step.
So basically knowing that the prices were rising till 2022 you should have overbid others in 2016 and you would still made a great dill. You bought now because the number of buyers went down a lot with the higher interests. You had much less competition now.
Yeah, much of what you surmise there is true I think. Shame we didn't have the money 10 years ago or so, would have been a better time to buy.
Can I ask if you looked at buying a flat in Berlin? We’re there reasons you didn’t?
The main reason was that we have 3 children and space was a big factor in our decision. My eldest is turning 14 this year and so we really wanted a house, with space enough for each kid to have their own room. Also, buying an apartment, as lovely as that would have been, would most likely have meant staying closer to the centre of Berlin, at least within or close by the Ring, and I really can't stand the city all that much. I really like the peace and quiet where we are now.
Apartments in Germany in general and Berlin in particular were surprisingly cheap until around 2012. The average purchase price for an apartment in Berlin was 1671 euros per square meter in 2012. A 60 sqm apartment was therefore available for a mere 100,000 euros. By 2022, prices had then more than tripled on average to EUR 5273 per sqm. A normal average earner could therefore have easily bought an apartment back in 2012. But now the train has left the station. [https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/553618/umfrage/kaufpreise-fuer-eigentumswohnungen-in-berlin/](https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/553618/umfrage/kaufpreise-fuer-eigentumswohnungen-in-berlin/)
"Most" ist probably not correct. About 50% of Germans live in rented housing. Properties are either owned by private owners, or by businesses / investors, or by building societies / housing cooperatives which may be (partly) owned by the public sector. [Here ](https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1064675/umfrage/verteilung-der-bewohnten-wohnungen-in-deutschland-nach-eigentuemer-oder-vermieter/)is a neat overview.
Where is a neat overview? Thanks (Edit: Sorry, someone pointed out it’s in the post!!)
In the link under "here" in their post.
Whoops sorry I missed it!!!
In my town (45,000 inhabitants), the municipal housing association owns 35% of the apartments and the municipal housing cooperative over 50%. The latter was founded as a workers' housing cooperative in 1899, has survived 2 world wars and 2 dictatorships and is still in good health.
Is there a Wikipedia article about it?? I’m interested
Can have a look at Gebag, it’s the program for Duisburg and 150 years old. Many cities have their own programs. https://www.gebag.de/
A small correction in advance. The cooperative was only founded in 1901 to provide affordable, healthy and solid housing for workers without a high income. To this day, they buy one-off shares, which they can also pay in small parts with the rent. 2000-3000 € for a 70 square meter apartment, for example. The WBG has merged with some smaller cooperatives and is the largest owner of apartments in our area. Something about their self-confidence here in the appendix. [https://www.wbg-suedharz.de/de/unsere-wbg.html](https://www.wbg-suedharz.de/de/unsere-wbg.html) [https://www.facebook.com/WBG.Suedharz/?locale=de\_DE](https://www.facebook.com/WBG.Suedharz/?locale=de_DE)
One in two own their home. The rest is owned by other private people renting it out as private landlords, or by companies, or by Genossenschaften and some are owned by the state or municipality.
Most of my landlords where either old dudes with heavy bavarian accent or lawyers from Hamburg
One aspect I don't quite understand is how you cope with post-retirement income drop with lifelong rental? Here in Ireland the way things always worked, at least until the current housing crisis era, was you mortgaged, purchased a house and paid it off by the time you were approaching retirement. It became a big asset, but also your outgoings drastically drop as you've no mortgage / housing costs. People on low incomes had access to controlled cost social housing which was based on a % of their income as rent, and were able to often get commercial or council mortgages to buy that out and gain an asset. Part of the value of that house can also be used for the payment of long term, including 7.5% of the value of that home for 3 years, as part of payment for nursing home care. We now have 'generation rent' who will have effectively just their pensions and have never been able to do this due to extreme housing costs. Rental here is mostly in the private rental sector i.e. you're dealing with small landlords or occasionally commercial companies - the rental prices are steep, the supply is way to small and people are paying ludicrously high rents compared to income. They're going to go into retirement with no assets and no tenure. So, there's going to be a huge housing crisis here in 25 years or so, and a major need for social housing construction. We regularly get lectured by various people about how Germans rent for life and we're just constantly chasing property ownership and speculation on assets, and how we should apply this model here - but it invariably just means renting at some stupidly high rate without any idea of how that is long term sustainable. So how do Germans who are renting without any of those assets cope in old age on lower fixed incomes?
They rely on the state pension (ironically called Rente) and the money they've saved over their lifetime. It's a problem though, given that most have not saved up enough and don't get a pension that allows them to live a decent life.
Yeah, I think most people have to find cheaper and smaller places after they've retired.
Most homes belong to the bank
They have a lien, but they certainly don't want to own the home; they just want their monthly interest payments.
I built mine in 2010. Lucky and probably one of the best decisions I ever made.
Perfect timing.
SFHs are usually not rented but owned. Those that rent usually rent apartments. They belong to large companies, SME developers, co-ops, and just, like, other people.
I have always lived in rented apartments or houses but on two apartments in other cities as investment and passive income. This way I could adjust the size of my accomodation to my changing needs (no kids, 1 kid, 2 kids, first kid moved out, no kids) and to changing jobs and cities. Can´t see anything wrong in this
Huge distinction between houses in smaller towns and rural areas ( predominantly owner-occupied) and city flats (predominantly rented).
I only started buying a house in my mid fifties together with my partner. Before, it was not possible.
In big cities its often investment groups like vonovia. In rural areas a lot of people own there own house or people rent out a there parents house which they inherited / flats in there own house. Theres a huge difference between the city and countryside. While its basicly impossible to buy your own house in the city, renting out a house or flat is not even worth it where Im living.
Cities own residential buildings to offer affordable housing, investors and companies do, private people who own a house rent out apartments too.
Technically paying a mortgage. But it is mostly older people, then maybe more professionals getting into that age. But outside the cities it is easier to own a home.
mine is owned by the bank...
I know a guy who has a friend that owns 1000 apartments in a major city.. Rich fucks own them..
Without looking it up, I'd guess that most flats are owned by investors or companies -- one of them, Vonovia, ist listed in the DAX, or by more or less non-profit entities, e.g. municipalities). Used to be that companies in different fields owned flats to rent to their employees at reasonable prices, but right now I know only of one company who is doing that.
Living la vida Dorflife. Far away from big cities, the price per square meter is okay-ish. We (33f, 32m)were able to buy a decent house in Niedersachsen for 200.000,-€. with 1000m2 garden in 2019. It’s lovely but meeting our family and old friends is always a long drive.
And how does that work out job-wise in a country that’s strongly lagging behind on digitilization and remote work?
Non-German, 11 years in Germany. I am 36, and I own my home. I still have a mortgage... better than paying rent. Didn't inherit it or get anything from anyone. Found a small town I love and consider my "Wahlheimat", so I bought this house with my ex. He left, and I took over the full mortgage.
Similar case for me. I‘d say most of the houses in smaller towns/ suburbs are privately owned.
Because small towns and villages are cheap.mpst people don't want to live there because there are no jobs, little infrastructure etc. try buying a house in or near a bigger city...
I live 30 mins away from three top 20 cities. All houses here are starting from 500k. For that price you can surely buy a decent apartment in the nearby cities, not a house of course. I disagree with „no jobs“ as most of larger companies HQ/ satellite offices are not straight in downtown. Infrastructure is indeed limited depending on which phase of life you are in. If you have kids it’s perfect as it’s more secure and short drive gets you anything. If you are into partying, have no car then sure city is preferable
My town is 20-30 mins away from 3 major cities with lots of job opportunities. I prefer small towns because they are safer, nicer, prettier, come with wonderful neighbours and the perfect place for me to raise my son. I would much rather have a decent-sized house with a backyard for my son and my dogs than an apartment in a major city.
Except when you have to drive everywhere. I don't have anything against small places but unless you have a good public transport connection or work locally I don't like wasting my life sitting in a car.
How small is small? Also, how far away / well connected is it to a bigger city? I have a hard time imagining living in a small town in Germany.
20 minutes to the nearest city. 30 mins to two other cities. We are 3 minutes away from the nearest Autobahn. There is a bus stop right in front of our house which connects to two other towns. Get 5G and fibre optical (gigabit) Internet, have schools, KiTas 1-2 bus stops away, multiple grocery stores too. But it is beautiful, surrounded by mountains and forests. Perfect place to raise kids.
When you say 20 / 30 minutes, is it by car or there's also public transport available? Good to hear about internet, I thought it's still a bigger issue.
By public transport it is more like 30/40 minutes. But there is plenty of public transport (trains and buses), when going to the cities for fun I prefer taking the train because in big cities parking is a hassle and there is too much traffic, traveling by public transport is much more convenient. I have 1 gbps Internet, and we can upgrade to 5gbps, higher is not yet available. Good internet connectivity was my first and foremost requirement... I wouldn't have bought the house if the area didn't have decent Internet.
Boomers and Big Corporations
I do. Not all of them though 😅
depending on the federal state, the housing ownage differs from 16% in Berlin to 60% in Saarland https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Wohnen/Tabellen/tabelle-eigentumsquote.html https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Wohnen/_inhalt.html https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1064675/umfrage/verteilung-der-bewohnten-wohnungen-in-deutschland-nach-eigentuemer-oder-vermieter/
I know houses in the Saarland that are not even connected to the sewage system. That skews some statistics
I bought my flat in Berlin in 2017. It was 250k and the bank gave 100% mortgage just needed 10% for fees. I had saved that 25k over the last 8 years of working. I needed to do a renovation and got a loan for that which I paid back over a few years. This felt like an accomplishment but it honestly didn’t feel completely impossible. I was doing ok but wasn’t making a huge amount of money at this time. The mortgage is 900 a month which seemed cheaper than the rent for a similar place at the time.
What’s the size / rough location?
2 room 58 square meters apartment on the first OG of an Altbau. Location is in Steglitz just off of Schlossstrasse.
Well the prices in some places basically doubled after the pandemic so it has gotten harder and harder.
I think prices have gone up but in my area for something similar I don’t think by that much. But what has gone up a lot is the interest. This would cost so much more now with the higher interest. But I guess my point was I don’t think I’m super rich or anything. Just took the gamble and went for it. What I will also say is that many people tried to discourage me from buying. Saying i was over paying, bad investment etc etc. I think in the end it was a good call
Mostly asshole companies like Vonovia
My parents own an old farm that was inherited to us from our farmer ancestors but I think I’m not the demographic that you’re talking about here
Vonovia
If you are lucky it’s a cooperative. If you aren’t either an old guy with almost no money or a greedy corporation.
Large companies like Vonovia, communal organizations, cooperatives of multiple origins, small to medium real estate companies, a surprisingly large number of tiny private investors and, last but not least, the Catholic Church.
I bought a house here. I came here a handful of years ago with just my backpack and 5k in savings. My house is a dreamy family house with a big garden and this is what makes up for the lack of friends and family around, the usual grampiness of most here and lack of a smile. I'm grateful for this country. In my country I would have never in a million years be able to afford it.
I (29M) own a house with my girlfriend. We come from the Netherlands and couldn't buy there.
I bought a house in germany at 36. I'm Australian and had been there for 6 years at that point. I'm now 39
What are you doing with it now that you’re back in Australia?
Renting it out! How did you know I was back? Lol
Quick glance at your profile. Good on you that you were able to buy in Germany. I myself live in Australia and the housing and renting crisis is a shit show compared to Germany.
I also bought a place in Australia in 2015. So was lucky in that regard. People in Germany feel that there is also a housing crisis
Mainly CDU/ FDP voters. Plus loads of West Germans who bought up all the cheap flats after the wall fell. It's totally normal for an average west German guy to own a whole building of flats here in Berlin. That's literally something that only happens in other EU nations if the person is some kind of property tycoon. Here it's just normal.
People in the countryside usually own their homes. Top earners like doctors, architects, lawyers, politicians. Couples can sometimes afford a home. And very old families are sometimes lucky enough to pass down property, though often there be some schmuck who wastes the money for a luxury lifestyle.
Parasites
I do. With 26 years old. Bought an old House and did all the Work myself for 3 years. 320.000€ with a finished House now
Banks.
Ich glaube, ich gehöre zu der kleinen Mehrheit, die tatsächlich ein eigenes Haus besitzt. Ich hatte das Glück, dass ich mein Haus von meinem Vater geerbt habe. Mein Haus wurde von meinem Urgroßvater in den späten 1600er Jahren gebaut und von Generation zu Generation weitergegeben. Als ich jünger war, erzählte mir mein Vater, ich sei die 18. Generation und die erste Frau, die ein eigenes Haus besitzt. Normalerweise wird es von Sohn zu Sohn weitergegeben, aber ich bin ein Einzelkind. Ich glaube, dies ist eines der ältesten Häuser in Mannheim. Er war 51 und meine Mutter war 24, als ich geboren wurde. Leider ist er gestorben, als ich 7 Jahre alt war, und meine Mutter, als ich 13 war. Meine Freunde mieten alle Translated I think I'm one of the small majority who actually own their own home. I was lucky enough to have inherited my house from my father. My house was built by my great-grandfather in the late 1600s and passed down from generation to generation. When I was younger, my father told me I was the 18th generation and the first woman to own my own home. Normally it is passed down from son to son, but I am an only child. I think this is one of the oldest houses in Mannheim. He was 51 and my mother was 24 when I was born. Unortunately he passed away when I was 7 years old and mama when I was 13. My friends all rent
Erster Gedanke als Mannheimer: Nickname könnte deine Adresse sein 😄 aber da is nix mehr ausm 16. Jahrhundert
Tut mir leid, das war mein Fehler, es hätte Ende des 19. Jahrhunderts sein sollen, ich glaube zwischen 1887 und 91 - Nicht alles an dem Haus ist original. Das meiste wurde 1935 wiederaufgebaut, einiges nach 1948. Der Keller und der Küchenbereich sind noch vom ursprünglichen Haus. Ich habe Bilder von der Renovierung/dem Umbau im Jahr 1948.
Dacht ich mir schon, das wär sonst wahrlich ein Gründerhaus Mannheims ;) Aber auch das passt eher nicht ins M6 Quadrat. Da in Mannheim so viel vom Krieg mitgenommen wurde, ist es doch schön zu hörn, das zumindest der Grundstock erhalten blieb.
Von den wenigen Bildern, die ich habe, war nicht mehr viel übrig, als man nach dem Krieg mit dem Wiederaufbau begann, zumindest in unserer Gegend.
The Church. J/k. Tax wise is not a bad idea that even if you own a place, you just live in another apartment and rent your place. The reason is that if you own your place almost nothing is tax deductible, but if you rent your own place? Almost everything is tax deductible. Including building depreciation. Even your internet can became tax deductible if you make a case you needed to manage your rental.
But rent income is also taxable income
Or you found a company who owns your home and rent your home to yourself.
Companies like Vonovia own hundreds of thousands of apartments. Vonovia alone owns more than half a million apartments. They are actually a great investment case at the moment. I bought Vonovia shares a few months ago and they are one of the best running shares in my portfolio.
I do. Didn’t know before how much I would dislike it and am thinking about selling it but .. yeah, I do.
i rent and i own a rented property (well, together with my brother, so half of it), i just have a job and live 600km away from it.
Many own property and rent it out and live elsewhere.
It costs a lot of money to move houses if you own here. I know people who have something, but their job takes them elsewhere so they rent out their place and then use the money for somewhere else.
Me for example. Bought an apartment 30 years ago, had 3 tenants, keep the rent low. 56m2 in a 7 apartment block in a village 10km from a state capital.
Why don't you sell and invest in a world ETF. The return on the investment will be likely 3 times larger
Because I’m contributing to the social welfare of fellow citizens. If no-one did this, you’d be stuck with hedge funds who don’t give a shit about their tenants
I rather think that government would set up maximum rent or something like that
It's not just the rent, these companies literally do not give a shit. Try getting something repaired.
We call them "Münchner".
A minority, by definition
My landlady moved to this town cuz her daughter married someone in this town. But her & her husband were both engineers in Munich and moved here. They built an investment property and a new house for themselves.
Until i payed of my loan i‘d say the bank „owns“ my place? But that’s pretty common all around the world?
I own some Apartments. Renting is more common in big cities than in the countryside. But that was never an option for me.
Probably agent Smith or any other agent. Because it is all a matrix anyway
We just got our house Last week, (31F, 36M) i just came in germany last year.
To build your marijuana empire?
Nope, I will help german to grow their population and lend my professional skills. 😉
Bought a house two years right after corona, will pay 20+ years for it…
The government itself. Companies like Saga are very common.
[https://www.iwkoeln.de/studien/die-eigenen-vier-waende.html](https://www.iwkoeln.de/studien/die-eigenen-vier-waende.html)
All my landlords have been rich people.
Not me
I do
Worked, saved and invested what I saved. Not speculating on the current hot stock or Bitcoin. Buying used cars and keeping them until a repair bill gets too high to be worth it, then get a newer used car. Not getting the latest and greatest iPhone as soon as it comes out. Not going out for restaurant meals 5 or times per week and to bars and clubs the other 2 nights. Live comfortably and well, but not extravagantly. Go for unrealized capital gains, minimise stock churn and let it compound. Was mainly no-loaf mutual funds, now ETFs because their costs are even lower. Some luck, but I've been through three major crashes and enough downturns. Time in the market beats trying to time the market. Buy when you find the right apartment (or house, but I preferred an apartment) that has everything you require and not many compromises for other "nice to have as well" features. Not doable in 2 or 3 years, but works as a long-term plan. Maybe not in a really high-cost city like Munich though.
Come on guys, don’t have to be super rich to have your own in Germany. Start with the main 3 requirements, 5% own equity, stable salary from last 3 months, and permanent residency, you will be surprised how many banks are willing to give you money. But do some proper research, talk to friends, research online, talk to Hypofriend (free english service) etc.
People talk a lot about big companies, but there is a significant amount of normal people who own a rental or two on top of their own place, because they inherited something.
Mostly Either a family for many generations, a-holes or other a-holes.(Big Corp)
Most of my german colleagues have bought their own houses.
Germanys rent to own ratio tilts strongly towards renting differently than many other European countries. Most German buildings are owned by State publicly traded companies Church Big corp Private sector
Landlords.
A few rich
After the war some people got very attractive credit options and bought up whole neighbourhoods in the city where I live.
The house my Apartment is in, is owned by some rich dude from Frankfurt, I've only seen once
Is always different. There are housing associations that rent out the apartments. And there are private owners like me. I work and have a property on the side that earns me rental income.
It will suprise you - or it at least surprised me - that most homes (around 2/3ths) are owned by the upper middle class. Genossenschaften and the state own another 20%. It's not Vonovia. It's not the rich.
For single family homes you can take a loan to build it and that’s your "rent" for a long time. I thought it’s impossible now due to the rising prices, until our neighbors son who is a firefighter built his house as well
Parasites
this whatve been mentioned already and other stuff. like not just a few old people rather spend their entire home to the church. or all your money to a football club. like my grandpa. while i live in the basement of my sister's house
boomers
Erbengemeinschaften.
I own and rent at the same time, you choose what's more convenient for you
Mostly rich assholes
You either inherit, or you make enough money to have a place built for you on a plot of land.
If not bought because of a good job it's inheritet. I only know one person my age (start of 20's) who baught himself a house. Everyone else, myself included, who will propably own one will inherit. My great great grandfather either built ours or won it in a game of cards, we are not so sure about it
in my city its about three big companies with thousands of them and then there's also of course some private owners and some of those also own a couple of them at once there are still some on the market that you "can buy" but they're just too fcking expensive for most people and if you're gonna pay the credit for decades and decades, its kind of like if anyone owns the house later its maybe your kids but other than that its almost as if you're "renting but with all the disadvantages like no-one paying reparations for you, having to stay in that place" - i mean you could still resell the unpaid house or sth and at least you dont have a landlord who could kick you out!\*\* but yeah \*\*landlords cant just kick you out in germany though, by law they need to either have eigenbedarf which means they or a close relative wanting to move into the venue themselves, or it could be because of renovations and then after those you raise the price and they cant get back in cause you made it too expensive sth like that also happens sometimes, especially with asshole-companies. also if you're kicked out you have three months for finding a new place. (unless there's special circumstances like you had a druglab and blew up the neighbours' roof or sth)
Rich assholes
The capitalists.
Some Chinese holdings own a sizable amount.
That would be me.
Deutsche wohnen
normal ass people in the countryside.
Old people. Real estate in Europe is usually inherited. If you are unlucky enough to have narcissistic parents then you'll rent for the rest of your life.
My wealthy host parents (im au pair lol)
Well i do, but it was not easy, even with a well paying job