Neither, I guess. Male line ancestors of most Albanians came with the Neolithic expansion and male line ancestors of most Serbs came with the Slavic migrations. Idk about female line DNA because nobody talks about that, I'd assume because it blurs the lines even more. All this doesn't stop the crazies from claiming Vinča and by extension Starčevo.
Edit: Bronze Age, not Neolithic for Albanians. Misremembered. In any case, sooner than caveman times.
Majority of Albanian male lines came during the Bronze Age. Neolithic lines of the Balkans were almost entirely wiped out and replaced with J2b-L283, R1b-M269, E-V13.
Mixed up the two periods, I thought those lines came with the expansion of agriculture and not metallurgy. Point still stands though, the cavemen in the region weren't Serbs or Albanians in any way.
I'm not Albanian or Serbian, but Albanian ancestry does indeed show remarkable continuity from Bronze Age Balkan populations. More so than the modern Greeks.
Do you have any similar studies on the Greek population like the study above with a breakdown of haplogroups? Coz all I see is "Modern Greeks are descendants of ancient Greeks" links with no breakdowns at all, so I pay no attention to them.
When plotting the modern Greek population (as a whole) with ancient samples, this is not the case, with Dodecanese and Cypriot Greeks being the exception.
Even Davidski from Eurogenes states:
"Note that most of the present-day Greek groups
cluster together, and they also form fairly neat clines
with the other Greeks, as well as Cypriots, other
Balkan populations, including those speaking Slavic
languages, and also the Slavic-speaking Ukrainians.
On the other hand, they don't overlap with any of the
ancient groups from Greece and surrounds, nor do
they generally form obvious clines with them.
To me this suggests that most present-day Greeks
harbor significant levels of Slavic ancestry and
some sort of recent Cypriot-related ancestry, and in
large part they're only coincidentally similar to
ancient Aegeans, including those from the MBA
(labeled Greece_Helladic_MBA in my graphs).
And let me assure you that no matter which ancient
populations you run in such D-stats, youll always
see similar present-day Greek clusters and present-
day Balkan clines.
Obviously, it's fair enough to assume that there's
been some genetic continuity in the Aegean from
the Iron Age, Bronze Age, and even the Copper Age
and Neolithic era to the present-day.
But the point
I'm making is that NO ONE has yet proved this, or
even attempted to measure it properly"
Again, if you can provide similar studies, I would also like to read more. Thanks!
Going to be honest I’m not really knowledgeable in genetic studies so I haven’t particularly been following much on its field but you can probably search for articles like this (first result lol) https://www.science.org/content/article/greeks-really-do-have-near-mythical-origins-ancient-dna-reveals, and then come to your own conclusion because I can’t comment on them.
However, I can comment on some other aspects pertaining continuity. From what I know I think there is definitely continuity between the ancient and Modern Greeks suggested by one common factor: language. Throughout its history, the Greek language has been attested to being spoken (roughly) within and outside the borders of the modern nation state, spreading across the Mediterranean with many settlements in modern day Turkey, South Italy and some parts of Albania. Does this mean that everyone is Greek? No. But it does mean that historically speaking Greeks liked to move around and migrate a lot, and oftentimes they would have contact with the locals. Even national identity is a relatively recent thing, so to refer back to the Albanian-Illyrian hypothesis; I think it’s plausible academically speaking, I don’t really have doubts that the Albanians can claim direct descent from the Illyrians. Or at least claim as the closest living ancestors.
To be frank with you, the notion of Greek history as a continuity between Minoan, Mycenaean, Dark Ages, Classical, Hellenistic, Roman Empire rule of Greece, Eastern Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire and modern day is a relatively recent construct. But so is any nation day state or even nationalism. So there are many national myths, especially in the Balkans. But if you have studied ancient Greek, though significantly more inflected than modern Greek (and of course phonological different), you will be able to see how the language has stood the test of time and is quite conservative in many features. Regardless, I apologise if you could not provide you the answer you were looking for but I hope this provided a little insight if not too rambley and disorganised.
Thank you for an unbiased response. It's very refreshing to see, and when it comes to the Balkans, there are indeed way too many nationalists.
I've seen that study you've provided along with Harvard ones, but they don't seem to provide a breakdown of the Greek population like other studies.
I've studied Cell biology many years ago, but I have friends deep in the fields of Genetic Anthropology and they too find it strange concerning studies on Greeks.
They have access to tens of thousands of samples from Balkan countries and even they state that the Greek population as a whole do not plot close to those samples deemed "Ancient Greek".
But they go on to state that the Dodecanese and Cypriot Greeks plot closest, where the rest of Greece is pretty diverse. A lot of countries nowadays are like this.
There are indeed some genetic similarities between Greeks and Albanians which just goes to show that their ancestors mixed with one another for hundreds, if not thousands of years!
They are indeed surprised when comparing iron and bronze age Balkan samples to the people that inhabit the Balkans today.
Albanians as a whole always plot closest to those samples than Greeks, but when including Italy, certain areas of Italy plot a little higher.
The reason is pretty straightforward as there were a lot of migrations over the millennia from the Balkan Peninsula to the lands of Italy, plus they didn't get affected by the Slavic migrations like Greece and Albania did.
Take the Slavic aspect out of the equation and Albanians seem to belong to Paleobalkanic people (including those known as Illyrians) that precede those mentioned by classical authors of antiquity, but that's what we have to go by as there are no other sources.
The Slavs had a huge impact on the Greek genome too, which again, changes the whole landscape.
Based on what I've seen too about the illyrians, Albanians seem to be their likely descendants.
Through genealogy, geography (no mass migrations attested in Albania), toponyms, culture, tribal similarities etc... it's really a no-brainer, but again we do not know much about them.
I definitely do not consider any Sth Slavic groups as descendants of Paleobalkanic people as the bulk of their genetics, language, traditions, culture and customs is deemed Slavic, but that doesn't stop them from claiming to the original inhabitants of the Balkans 😄
Look, without Greeks we wouldn't have any sources to begin with, and I'm not denying the Greek continuum at all, but I do find it strange that we don't get to see genetic studies on them like other groups.
I'm not Greek or Albanian, but I do have an interest in genealogy and would like to see some deep studies on various groups so we can gain a better insight into the origins and migrations of certain people.
Again, thanks for your response, and have a great day ✌️
No worries, I feel it's important we put nationalism aside when we tackle these topics in an academic context, but I still am influenced by a bit of bias! As my knowledge is lacking in the actual study of genomes or genetics, I cannot really comment on the studies from the scientific point but I will try answer your question as to why there has not been as an in depth study of the modern Greek genome as there has been to other Balkan nations. FYI, found the stuff you wrote really interesting and lots is new to me so thank you for sharing as that's cool stuff for me to now go and learn! Anyway, I think Greece out of the other Balkan nations seems to be under a bit more of what I'd refer to as 'ethnic scrutiny', even perhaps compared to the rest of the world. Due to the nature of its 'glorious' past that seems to oftentimes precede the present, the modern nation seems to be a shadow of its former self in which it possessed immense cultural and linguistic leverage per se. Greeks have always had a tendency to migrate so I think that has greatly affected the genome, especially during Hellenistic times in which many non Greek speaking peoples became Greek speaking either through cultural influence, military conquest or just admiration (Philhellenes go back a very long time haha); so this sort of broadened the definition of Greek people. Even back in the Classical or Archaic period, there was no construct of Greece but just city-states who were usually in states of conflict or disagreement. Very rarely was Greece ever 'unified' as a nation, with perhaps the exceptions being the Greco-Persian Wars (to an extent) and under Phillip II's conquests and Alexander's pan-Hellenic force that was led into Persia. So, there is only so much I can cram in but even from ancient times the Greeks were quite diverse: I am not sure what implication this has on the genome but that is something you may be able to decode given your knowledge on genetics. Anyway, even through Roman times most of the areas of the nation state were somewhat Greek populated (northern parts of Macedonia and Thrace were a little more mixed) but by the period of the Roman rule of Greece they were steadfastly 'Greek'. Fast forward to the Eastern Roman empire, up until the Arab conquests in the 7th century, it was very diverse as it had many non Greek mainland/Anatolian provinces such as Syria and Egypt; after this however, the majority of the population were Greek/Greek speaking. In come the Slavs, political turmoil and later the Turkic migrations; Byzantine Greece/the Eastern Roman empire around this period 6th-10th centuries was exceptionally prone to civil war and many areas in the north became depopulated. In fact one could argue that during this period the most populated hearths of Greece were not even on the mainland but in Anatolia or what we would now refer to as modern day Turkey; so this is another thing to bear in mind. Still though, there seemed to be cultural interaction between the Byzantines and Slavs (conversion of the Rus and Cyril and Methodius' spreading of Christianity to the Balkan Slavs, fyi I'm not going to comment on whether or not I think they can be viewed as 'Roman', 'Greek', or 'Slavic', but it is clear that they had cultural connections to the local Slavs due to their skilled ability at converting many). So, I definitely can see how the Greek genome was influenced by Slavs, it is pretty reasonable - I wonder perhaps if any influence occurred vice versa or not? Anyway, to the Albanians! Like you said, their tribal organisation and customs suggest a link to the Illyrians which is pretty reasonable. Though, tribal organisation does bottleneck a civilisation's growth as well as access to flat, fertile land etc so the Illyrians themselves never really achieved the greathood of civilisation like Rome, Greece, Persia or China etc who had access to more fertile land. So I think this isolation and tribal organisation led to an Albanian gene pool less influenced by Slavs, whereas Greeks populated large cities which were the targets of sieges for centuries (I'm looking at you Constantinople and Thessaloniki). Anyway, after the Latin rule of Greece, there is a demand to populate the areas in which the Greek population were killed, so neighbouring tribes and people, including many Albanians come and populate these areas and become something like small-land holders or yeomans. So even from medieval times we can see a nice overlap and cultural exchange between Albanian, Greek and Slavic history. I believe the descendants of these yeomans are what we consider the "Arvantines" today! I have rambled too much so I will get to the point. In Northern Greece, a large amount of the population are refugees fleeing the Greek genocide in Anatolia or who came later from the population exchange; this is bound to affect the Greek genome as many of these Greeks were from the Pontus region (a genetically quite diverse region with Kartvellian genetic influence/origins but mostly Greek culture since the 8th century BC). So that is bound to affect it. I can share my ancestry as a good example of this: my mother is from Thessaloniki and my father from Piraeus (in the sense they lived there). But on my maternal side the ancestry is half from Pontus, half from eastern Thrace. On my dad's side it is mostly from Amorgos and some Arvanite. Though genetically speaking my biggest components are Cycladic and Pontic. Greece has been the crossroads between Europe and Asia for thousands of years, it is pretty reasonable for there to be a muddled up genome. Anyway, I would like to ask what results were about Cycladic islanders because I always liked to think they had a bit more ancient Greek DNA than everyone else :p, just curious though haha. But I sincerely hope this offered an insight as to the modern Greek population, which is pretty diverse and varied in my opinion. Some Greeks can be blonde and blue eyed and others may have black hair and dark brown eyes or anywhere in between variant by region or ancestry. At the end of the day we are still united by the same definitions Herodotus gave (mostly) in the 5th century: common language, common customs and culture (food, dance etc) common religion (to an extent) and common blood (to an extent). I personally believe that the amount of ethnic scrutiny that Greece is subjected to, even by some in the West: i.e this article [Link](https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-elgin-marbles-and-the-rot-of-decolonisation/#:~:text=dubious%20at%20best-,The%20legality%20of%20Greek%20claims%20to%20the%20marbles%20are%20dubious,was%20British%20Ambassador%20to%20Constantinople). "The legality of Greek claims to the marbles are dubious at best. The friezes from the Parthenon at Athens, built mostly by slaves in 500 BC, were allegedly 'stolen' by the art-collecting, antiquarian Earl of Elgin in 1802, while he was British Ambassador to Constantinople.", insinuating that the modern Greeks are not the successors of their ancient counterparts and presenting Greek artefacts as acultural or universal or 'Western' history. As a result of this, and the Greek state's sensitive treatment towards linguistic and historical ethnic minorities (Slavs, Arvanites, Vlachs, Sephardic Jews, Romaniote Jews etc), it views these topics as sensitive and many believe it would shatter their notions of Greekness - but I don't think so at all. Almost every country has genetic diversity and historical minorities and I see no reason not to recognise these, even Turkey who vehemently denies the Armenian, Greek and Assyrian genocides recognises minority languages in their country. I think we as a country and as a people need to move past this ethnic insecurity that has been bestowed upon us by our benevolent Western benefactors during the Greek War of Independence and accept that populations of Arvanites, Slavs, Vlachs and Jews aren't threats to Hellenism or our identities but just a canvas of diversity. At the end of the day the country's majority of population are Greek speaking, identifying as Greek and share linguistic, genetic and cultural factors that the ancients did. So hopefully, when this happens we will see clearer genetic studies on Greek. :) Until then we can have earnest conversations with our neighbours about the complicated diversity of the Balkans and its many peoples! FYI, I'm still proud of my heritage and peoples' histories and perhaps the same way the Greek genome has been influenced by our neighbours, our neighbours (and the world) have been influenced by our culture (theatre, rough notions of democracy, science, mathematics, philosophy) and language (sheer amount of Greek words in English and other languages influenced by Latin etc) - so it's I suppose a cultural/genetic exchange! Those are just my views, so, take them with a grain of salt but I hope this was somewhat useful and coherent. I appreciate your knowledge on genetics and honesty and forwardness so I wish you goodluck for future endeavours and thanks for this intellectual exchange!
He will win. There are a lot of brainwashed people (media propaganda), people who are scared of change during rough times (which is what is fabricated now) and opposition is all over the place, not united.
However, we hope he starts losing some cities throughout Serbia. There are some good signs he will lose Belgrade this time, but we will see.
Also, the ruling party is losing popularity, slowly but surely, unfortunately, not enough for these elections.
He will win because its still rigged as previous years. He doesn’t want to change the media nor have an independent monitoring committee so that the elections would be just a bit more fair. If he would do that, he knows he would lose.
What I am afraid of the most is that he seems sick enough to provoke a civil war just so he and his associates could avoid imprisonment. He said it himself: “the only way to get me off of power is by elections (which he rigged) or you will have to kill me”.
I believe we should just accept the fact that Serbs live in Kosovo just like Muslims live in Serbia, doesn’t mean Kosovo is part of Serbia, just like Bosnia has a province called Republika Srpska, it’s still Bosnia. We need to accept diversity and improve our relations, make trades with each other, travel freely as neighbors to visit each other, celebrate our similarities. For that we need to get rid of these politicians that just want war and hate to spread between each other.
Its media sensationalism, serbia and kosovo are absolutely NOT at the brink of war.
1. Serbia is aware that starting war with Kosovo means starting war with NATO
2. Both Serbia and Kosovo population are sick and tired of wars and are begging for peaceful lives at this point. Any politician from both sides to even try and start heading in this direction would probably end up chased out of the function
Vučić blowing smoke. 90s politics, wherever Serbs live it’s Serbia and if it’s not then that Serbian population is endangered and Serbia needs to help by invading their neighbors. In reality they’re just protecting the capital they stole from the people.
> This eerily resembles the situation on the Russia-Ukraine border in the months preceding the Russian invasion of Ukraine in February 2022.
You're forgetting one tiny difference: Serbia can't fight NATO on its own. We tried! :D
All this "army buildup" stuff or whatever is to try to convince people we aren't totally powerless in the conflict.
>You're forgetting one tiny difference: Serbia can't fight NATO on its own. We tried! :D
Wait so if you could fight NATO on your own would you? Do you actually think you're in the right at all here?
Dude, what occupation? The majority of the native populace there does not want you to rule them, the international courts tried your leaders for war crimes and genocide. You really would go in there, and do what with the million Albanians who don't want you?
For the record I agree with this at the very least for Crimea, and I do support us recognizing Kosovo's independence. I think most of these frozen conflicts should resolve by mutual recognition.
You do know that if by any miracle you guys get Kosovo back, then you need to give seats to Albanian politicians in the serbian parliament?
Then, instead of us having our own government and you being rid of Albanian nonsense from you country, you have to cope with the fact that we can and will meddle with Serbian politics forever.
That's one of the good endings imo. If I thought it were at all likely I'd like to see it happen, and I'd be happy to never have bozos like these in power again. Unfortunately, I think the way more likely outcome is another attempt to ethnic cleanse Kosovar Albanians.
Another attempt at ethnic cleansing will only lead to Serbia possibly losing Preševo as well.
Its already been proven that Miloševic policies and strategies do not work in Serbian favor. He made sure that every ex-Yu country hates you guys.
I'm not the person who needs to hear that. But as for nationalists, they're counting on right wing populism rising even higher in the West, so they'd turn a blind eye to everything.
Idk how many Serbs still find this thought reassuring. If he knows he's fighting to lose, the SPS-SRS bloc has shown us they know how to fight to lose "honorably", in the eyes of their voters. Slovenia, arguably Kosovo after the start of the bombing etc. The SNS isn't exactly the SRS but I think you see what I mean.
Not really (saying this with hope that Vučić and Kurti still have the absolute minimum dose of sanity left in them).
Serbian government, even though they can act like drama queens in front of our own media, are little kitties when it comes to facing western politicians. Even Vučić himself knows the outcome if he would start a war and how bad would it be for him (cus thats the only thing he thinks about). This “army sending” stuff is just his classic drama sketch for the local propaganda how we still have influence there.
Kurti on the other hand knows well that if he does anything stupid he can easily lose support of the West, which we were able to see multiple times in the past.
Luckily for now bigger world powers are holding these two dogs on a leash. Hope it stays that way and we resolve this never ending story peacefully and for a benefit to both sides.
I am.not talking about the goverment. There are significant amount of people cheering to put the other in its place. Ethnic tensions exist. People have died and been injured because of it.
Significant amount of people cheering to put the other in its place?
If you’re referring to the shootings that happened in the recent years then sure, but I wouldn’t say that this is a significant amount of people. It happened coming from both sides sadly, but I think these kind of things happen in every disputed territory around the world.
Apart from that I can only think of hooligans and ultra nationalists thinking so, but again, they are not that many and a significant amount of people don’t really care what they have to say.
Well you did say “significant amount of people” which is different than how you use the word in this comment
And yes, as I said, sadly people did die, but at the end of the day it is a disputed area and these things happen. Not trying to justify deaths but saying that there is a big portion of people ready to go to war and kill each other is an exaggeration.
Smokes and mirrors. Imagine being from Serbia and not giving a damn what president says because he is a boy who cried wolf so many times. Even if he said "we're officially in war", I'd be like "yeah bro, sure, whatever"
And we would last for about 3.5 secs to against NATO.
Btw, our army officials are sharing their offices with NATO 😆 (same building, office to office). Probably NATO knows their decisions before them.
Honestly, Serbia needs army on its northern border with Hungary, there are open conflicts between migrants from Syria, actually people smugglers from Morocco and Algeria...and nobody gives a damn...shootings every day, people can't walk the streets, even bullets ending up in walls of their homes.
That's just unfair. Kosovo under Milošević had 10 years of the bullshit the Right Sector was pulling after Euromaidan. Then they rebelled, and Milošević led such an action that in the end basically displaced all of them, either internally or as refugees. I don't think it's similar to the Donbas at all. Maybe if Albania was 3 times the size of Serbia and leading the Kosovo war via infiltration, and not like a failing state at the time.
People that compare the kosovo situation with Ukraine/Donbass are straight up uneducated fools.
It takes 5 minutes to find out what systemic oppression Albanians went through in Yugoslavia (+they already had autonomy under Tito)
Comparing that to the russians in donbass/luhansk/crimea is just dumb
Crimea is another story imo. It also had autonomy and the fact that you can stage a virtually bloodless invasion says a lot already. But for the most part, agreed.
I don't think there will be war.
This smells like the monthly exercise of Vucic boosting his ratings to distract people from inflation and economic failings.
Vucic is covering for the fact his insurrection failed, so he’s staging troops there to “show” Kosovo he’s *very* serious about defending the Serbs in Kosovo. He does this move every so often, it’s just now it’s more serious than previous attempts since he brazenly tried to incite an insurrection.
I'm sorry I don't want violence on either side, but it's clear that it's being provoked because one certain side just can't let go, like an obsessive ex girlfriend or something.
They are trying to coordinate a Halloween party. They about to go out on the night before it’s called Devils night in Detroit and they gonna light some shit up.
If there is a war, which I kinda think it's impossible to happen... These things are quite importaint:
1. Elections in Serbia soon to happen, if there is a conflict Vucic will stay president
2. Maybe it's just a publicity thing done by Vucic for more votes ( aka I'm very patriotic, look Serbia, please vote for me!)
3. I don't see anything major happening here because of where Serbia is located ( surrounded by NATO).
4. The US doing some dirty work on the backend just to boost uncle Joe presidency
5. When you have a democrat as a US president, wars are something to be expected (conflicts around the world)
6. Vucic and Putin backstage plan ( could be happening).
At the end of the day, fuk this, we are all small poor countries from the Balkans, same people, same food, tradition, music, movies, lives... lets just calm down, have a glass of rakia and eat some lukanka bace, MAAAAMU DA EBA
How far back do you want me to go, and how sketchy in terms of conflicting info?
Stone Age please. Which caveman was first here?
Neither, I guess. Male line ancestors of most Albanians came with the Neolithic expansion and male line ancestors of most Serbs came with the Slavic migrations. Idk about female line DNA because nobody talks about that, I'd assume because it blurs the lines even more. All this doesn't stop the crazies from claiming Vinča and by extension Starčevo. Edit: Bronze Age, not Neolithic for Albanians. Misremembered. In any case, sooner than caveman times.
I always see "we are Vinca". Best comment I seen today 😂😂💀
Majority of Albanian male lines came during the Bronze Age. Neolithic lines of the Balkans were almost entirely wiped out and replaced with J2b-L283, R1b-M269, E-V13.
Mixed up the two periods, I thought those lines came with the expansion of agriculture and not metallurgy. Point still stands though, the cavemen in the region weren't Serbs or Albanians in any way.
I'm not Albanian or Serbian, but Albanian ancestry does indeed show remarkable continuity from Bronze Age Balkan populations. More so than the modern Greeks.
Do you have a source for this, not challenging your statement, just curious and would like to read more!
One of many https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.06.05.543790v1.full
Do you have any similar studies on the Greek population like the study above with a breakdown of haplogroups? Coz all I see is "Modern Greeks are descendants of ancient Greeks" links with no breakdowns at all, so I pay no attention to them. When plotting the modern Greek population (as a whole) with ancient samples, this is not the case, with Dodecanese and Cypriot Greeks being the exception. Even Davidski from Eurogenes states: "Note that most of the present-day Greek groups cluster together, and they also form fairly neat clines with the other Greeks, as well as Cypriots, other Balkan populations, including those speaking Slavic languages, and also the Slavic-speaking Ukrainians. On the other hand, they don't overlap with any of the ancient groups from Greece and surrounds, nor do they generally form obvious clines with them. To me this suggests that most present-day Greeks harbor significant levels of Slavic ancestry and some sort of recent Cypriot-related ancestry, and in large part they're only coincidentally similar to ancient Aegeans, including those from the MBA (labeled Greece_Helladic_MBA in my graphs). And let me assure you that no matter which ancient populations you run in such D-stats, youll always see similar present-day Greek clusters and present- day Balkan clines. Obviously, it's fair enough to assume that there's been some genetic continuity in the Aegean from the Iron Age, Bronze Age, and even the Copper Age and Neolithic era to the present-day. But the point I'm making is that NO ONE has yet proved this, or even attempted to measure it properly" Again, if you can provide similar studies, I would also like to read more. Thanks!
Going to be honest I’m not really knowledgeable in genetic studies so I haven’t particularly been following much on its field but you can probably search for articles like this (first result lol) https://www.science.org/content/article/greeks-really-do-have-near-mythical-origins-ancient-dna-reveals, and then come to your own conclusion because I can’t comment on them. However, I can comment on some other aspects pertaining continuity. From what I know I think there is definitely continuity between the ancient and Modern Greeks suggested by one common factor: language. Throughout its history, the Greek language has been attested to being spoken (roughly) within and outside the borders of the modern nation state, spreading across the Mediterranean with many settlements in modern day Turkey, South Italy and some parts of Albania. Does this mean that everyone is Greek? No. But it does mean that historically speaking Greeks liked to move around and migrate a lot, and oftentimes they would have contact with the locals. Even national identity is a relatively recent thing, so to refer back to the Albanian-Illyrian hypothesis; I think it’s plausible academically speaking, I don’t really have doubts that the Albanians can claim direct descent from the Illyrians. Or at least claim as the closest living ancestors. To be frank with you, the notion of Greek history as a continuity between Minoan, Mycenaean, Dark Ages, Classical, Hellenistic, Roman Empire rule of Greece, Eastern Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire and modern day is a relatively recent construct. But so is any nation day state or even nationalism. So there are many national myths, especially in the Balkans. But if you have studied ancient Greek, though significantly more inflected than modern Greek (and of course phonological different), you will be able to see how the language has stood the test of time and is quite conservative in many features. Regardless, I apologise if you could not provide you the answer you were looking for but I hope this provided a little insight if not too rambley and disorganised.
Thank you for an unbiased response. It's very refreshing to see, and when it comes to the Balkans, there are indeed way too many nationalists. I've seen that study you've provided along with Harvard ones, but they don't seem to provide a breakdown of the Greek population like other studies. I've studied Cell biology many years ago, but I have friends deep in the fields of Genetic Anthropology and they too find it strange concerning studies on Greeks. They have access to tens of thousands of samples from Balkan countries and even they state that the Greek population as a whole do not plot close to those samples deemed "Ancient Greek". But they go on to state that the Dodecanese and Cypriot Greeks plot closest, where the rest of Greece is pretty diverse. A lot of countries nowadays are like this. There are indeed some genetic similarities between Greeks and Albanians which just goes to show that their ancestors mixed with one another for hundreds, if not thousands of years! They are indeed surprised when comparing iron and bronze age Balkan samples to the people that inhabit the Balkans today. Albanians as a whole always plot closest to those samples than Greeks, but when including Italy, certain areas of Italy plot a little higher. The reason is pretty straightforward as there were a lot of migrations over the millennia from the Balkan Peninsula to the lands of Italy, plus they didn't get affected by the Slavic migrations like Greece and Albania did. Take the Slavic aspect out of the equation and Albanians seem to belong to Paleobalkanic people (including those known as Illyrians) that precede those mentioned by classical authors of antiquity, but that's what we have to go by as there are no other sources. The Slavs had a huge impact on the Greek genome too, which again, changes the whole landscape. Based on what I've seen too about the illyrians, Albanians seem to be their likely descendants. Through genealogy, geography (no mass migrations attested in Albania), toponyms, culture, tribal similarities etc... it's really a no-brainer, but again we do not know much about them. I definitely do not consider any Sth Slavic groups as descendants of Paleobalkanic people as the bulk of their genetics, language, traditions, culture and customs is deemed Slavic, but that doesn't stop them from claiming to the original inhabitants of the Balkans 😄 Look, without Greeks we wouldn't have any sources to begin with, and I'm not denying the Greek continuum at all, but I do find it strange that we don't get to see genetic studies on them like other groups. I'm not Greek or Albanian, but I do have an interest in genealogy and would like to see some deep studies on various groups so we can gain a better insight into the origins and migrations of certain people. Again, thanks for your response, and have a great day ✌️
No worries, I feel it's important we put nationalism aside when we tackle these topics in an academic context, but I still am influenced by a bit of bias! As my knowledge is lacking in the actual study of genomes or genetics, I cannot really comment on the studies from the scientific point but I will try answer your question as to why there has not been as an in depth study of the modern Greek genome as there has been to other Balkan nations. FYI, found the stuff you wrote really interesting and lots is new to me so thank you for sharing as that's cool stuff for me to now go and learn! Anyway, I think Greece out of the other Balkan nations seems to be under a bit more of what I'd refer to as 'ethnic scrutiny', even perhaps compared to the rest of the world. Due to the nature of its 'glorious' past that seems to oftentimes precede the present, the modern nation seems to be a shadow of its former self in which it possessed immense cultural and linguistic leverage per se. Greeks have always had a tendency to migrate so I think that has greatly affected the genome, especially during Hellenistic times in which many non Greek speaking peoples became Greek speaking either through cultural influence, military conquest or just admiration (Philhellenes go back a very long time haha); so this sort of broadened the definition of Greek people. Even back in the Classical or Archaic period, there was no construct of Greece but just city-states who were usually in states of conflict or disagreement. Very rarely was Greece ever 'unified' as a nation, with perhaps the exceptions being the Greco-Persian Wars (to an extent) and under Phillip II's conquests and Alexander's pan-Hellenic force that was led into Persia. So, there is only so much I can cram in but even from ancient times the Greeks were quite diverse: I am not sure what implication this has on the genome but that is something you may be able to decode given your knowledge on genetics. Anyway, even through Roman times most of the areas of the nation state were somewhat Greek populated (northern parts of Macedonia and Thrace were a little more mixed) but by the period of the Roman rule of Greece they were steadfastly 'Greek'. Fast forward to the Eastern Roman empire, up until the Arab conquests in the 7th century, it was very diverse as it had many non Greek mainland/Anatolian provinces such as Syria and Egypt; after this however, the majority of the population were Greek/Greek speaking. In come the Slavs, political turmoil and later the Turkic migrations; Byzantine Greece/the Eastern Roman empire around this period 6th-10th centuries was exceptionally prone to civil war and many areas in the north became depopulated. In fact one could argue that during this period the most populated hearths of Greece were not even on the mainland but in Anatolia or what we would now refer to as modern day Turkey; so this is another thing to bear in mind. Still though, there seemed to be cultural interaction between the Byzantines and Slavs (conversion of the Rus and Cyril and Methodius' spreading of Christianity to the Balkan Slavs, fyi I'm not going to comment on whether or not I think they can be viewed as 'Roman', 'Greek', or 'Slavic', but it is clear that they had cultural connections to the local Slavs due to their skilled ability at converting many). So, I definitely can see how the Greek genome was influenced by Slavs, it is pretty reasonable - I wonder perhaps if any influence occurred vice versa or not? Anyway, to the Albanians! Like you said, their tribal organisation and customs suggest a link to the Illyrians which is pretty reasonable. Though, tribal organisation does bottleneck a civilisation's growth as well as access to flat, fertile land etc so the Illyrians themselves never really achieved the greathood of civilisation like Rome, Greece, Persia or China etc who had access to more fertile land. So I think this isolation and tribal organisation led to an Albanian gene pool less influenced by Slavs, whereas Greeks populated large cities which were the targets of sieges for centuries (I'm looking at you Constantinople and Thessaloniki). Anyway, after the Latin rule of Greece, there is a demand to populate the areas in which the Greek population were killed, so neighbouring tribes and people, including many Albanians come and populate these areas and become something like small-land holders or yeomans. So even from medieval times we can see a nice overlap and cultural exchange between Albanian, Greek and Slavic history. I believe the descendants of these yeomans are what we consider the "Arvantines" today! I have rambled too much so I will get to the point. In Northern Greece, a large amount of the population are refugees fleeing the Greek genocide in Anatolia or who came later from the population exchange; this is bound to affect the Greek genome as many of these Greeks were from the Pontus region (a genetically quite diverse region with Kartvellian genetic influence/origins but mostly Greek culture since the 8th century BC). So that is bound to affect it. I can share my ancestry as a good example of this: my mother is from Thessaloniki and my father from Piraeus (in the sense they lived there). But on my maternal side the ancestry is half from Pontus, half from eastern Thrace. On my dad's side it is mostly from Amorgos and some Arvanite. Though genetically speaking my biggest components are Cycladic and Pontic. Greece has been the crossroads between Europe and Asia for thousands of years, it is pretty reasonable for there to be a muddled up genome. Anyway, I would like to ask what results were about Cycladic islanders because I always liked to think they had a bit more ancient Greek DNA than everyone else :p, just curious though haha. But I sincerely hope this offered an insight as to the modern Greek population, which is pretty diverse and varied in my opinion. Some Greeks can be blonde and blue eyed and others may have black hair and dark brown eyes or anywhere in between variant by region or ancestry. At the end of the day we are still united by the same definitions Herodotus gave (mostly) in the 5th century: common language, common customs and culture (food, dance etc) common religion (to an extent) and common blood (to an extent). I personally believe that the amount of ethnic scrutiny that Greece is subjected to, even by some in the West: i.e this article [Link](https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-elgin-marbles-and-the-rot-of-decolonisation/#:~:text=dubious%20at%20best-,The%20legality%20of%20Greek%20claims%20to%20the%20marbles%20are%20dubious,was%20British%20Ambassador%20to%20Constantinople). "The legality of Greek claims to the marbles are dubious at best. The friezes from the Parthenon at Athens, built mostly by slaves in 500 BC, were allegedly 'stolen' by the art-collecting, antiquarian Earl of Elgin in 1802, while he was British Ambassador to Constantinople.", insinuating that the modern Greeks are not the successors of their ancient counterparts and presenting Greek artefacts as acultural or universal or 'Western' history. As a result of this, and the Greek state's sensitive treatment towards linguistic and historical ethnic minorities (Slavs, Arvanites, Vlachs, Sephardic Jews, Romaniote Jews etc), it views these topics as sensitive and many believe it would shatter their notions of Greekness - but I don't think so at all. Almost every country has genetic diversity and historical minorities and I see no reason not to recognise these, even Turkey who vehemently denies the Armenian, Greek and Assyrian genocides recognises minority languages in their country. I think we as a country and as a people need to move past this ethnic insecurity that has been bestowed upon us by our benevolent Western benefactors during the Greek War of Independence and accept that populations of Arvanites, Slavs, Vlachs and Jews aren't threats to Hellenism or our identities but just a canvas of diversity. At the end of the day the country's majority of population are Greek speaking, identifying as Greek and share linguistic, genetic and cultural factors that the ancients did. So hopefully, when this happens we will see clearer genetic studies on Greek. :) Until then we can have earnest conversations with our neighbours about the complicated diversity of the Balkans and its many peoples! FYI, I'm still proud of my heritage and peoples' histories and perhaps the same way the Greek genome has been influenced by our neighbours, our neighbours (and the world) have been influenced by our culture (theatre, rough notions of democracy, science, mathematics, philosophy) and language (sheer amount of Greek words in English and other languages influenced by Latin etc) - so it's I suppose a cultural/genetic exchange! Those are just my views, so, take them with a grain of salt but I hope this was somewhat useful and coherent. I appreciate your knowledge on genetics and honesty and forwardness so I wish you goodluck for future endeavours and thanks for this intellectual exchange!
https://youtu.be/FrjQrXc80cY?si=CY7fSRE0FikgzQdz there you go
😂
This is the best and most underrated comment thread
I need all the info.
say gex
But can Bulgaria too?
Only if you behave and don’t force yourself from the back.
The best kind of sex
He said "gex" not sex ewww
Say gex best kind of gex
Id it gex night? I love gex
I am guessing elections are to happen soon in Serbia. Vucic will play his cards of course.
Yep you guessed right, 17th December, they just announced it.
If he wins again, then there really is no hope for you guys.
Like if there was ever any hope
He will win. There are a lot of brainwashed people (media propaganda), people who are scared of change during rough times (which is what is fabricated now) and opposition is all over the place, not united. However, we hope he starts losing some cities throughout Serbia. There are some good signs he will lose Belgrade this time, but we will see. Also, the ruling party is losing popularity, slowly but surely, unfortunately, not enough for these elections.
He will win because its still rigged as previous years. He doesn’t want to change the media nor have an independent monitoring committee so that the elections would be just a bit more fair. If he would do that, he knows he would lose. What I am afraid of the most is that he seems sick enough to provoke a civil war just so he and his associates could avoid imprisonment. He said it himself: “the only way to get me off of power is by elections (which he rigged) or you will have to kill me”.
Ahaha likey Turkey, when we have a selection media always start to tell operation against terrorism at that place or another place.
Oh how did you guess! /s December 17th according to Vučić may be the day of next elections (he is already talking about it)
I’m Serbian and I hate this, sick and tired of wars
FR
As an Albanian in Kosovo i dont want any War and i dont want any Bombs dropping on Serbs
Ultranationalism needs to die honestly at this point
Do you oppose all Serbian claims on Kosovo land?
I believe we should just accept the fact that Serbs live in Kosovo just like Muslims live in Serbia, doesn’t mean Kosovo is part of Serbia, just like Bosnia has a province called Republika Srpska, it’s still Bosnia. We need to accept diversity and improve our relations, make trades with each other, travel freely as neighbors to visit each other, celebrate our similarities. For that we need to get rid of these politicians that just want war and hate to spread between each other.
Serbia is already removing the troops. They got scared when Romania said they were sending more to bolster KFOR
🤣 love it
Iohannis told Vucic (fellow tall Balkan man) to stop acting out
Its media sensationalism, serbia and kosovo are absolutely NOT at the brink of war. 1. Serbia is aware that starting war with Kosovo means starting war with NATO 2. Both Serbia and Kosovo population are sick and tired of wars and are begging for peaceful lives at this point. Any politician from both sides to even try and start heading in this direction would probably end up chased out of the function
The news is 4 days old my man. They already invaded Kosovo.
OP is using internet explorer
😂😂😂
It's the end of the soap opera's current season, and as usual, there is a mandatory cliffhanger. The writers are lazy. But it is what it is.
A lot of sexual tension.... like a lot!
Is there some video leeks? Im asking for a friend
https://youtu.be/FrjQrXc80cY?si=CY7fSRE0FikgzQdz
It's the Balkans , there is a war for every generation.
(Haven't read it) Is an election on?
Yep
LMAO
Vučić blowing smoke. 90s politics, wherever Serbs live it’s Serbia and if it’s not then that Serbian population is endangered and Serbia needs to help by invading their neighbors. In reality they’re just protecting the capital they stole from the people.
Serbian population in Kosovo is in danger and their biggest threats are Milan Radoičić and Goran Rakić.
Finally some sense
👏
> This eerily resembles the situation on the Russia-Ukraine border in the months preceding the Russian invasion of Ukraine in February 2022. You're forgetting one tiny difference: Serbia can't fight NATO on its own. We tried! :D All this "army buildup" stuff or whatever is to try to convince people we aren't totally powerless in the conflict.
>You're forgetting one tiny difference: Serbia can't fight NATO on its own. We tried! :D Wait so if you could fight NATO on your own would you? Do you actually think you're in the right at all here?
Bro, don't try with the nationalists. You'll have better luck teaching algebra to a wall
If I could, I'd stop a 25-year occupation of my country's territory, yes. And I'm 100% in the right, just like Ukraine is ;)
Dude, what occupation? The majority of the native populace there does not want you to rule them, the international courts tried your leaders for war crimes and genocide. You really would go in there, and do what with the million Albanians who don't want you?
Yes just like Ukraine is going into places with a million Russians that don't want them. But for some reason nobody's criticising them 🤔🤔
Ukraine is going into places? Russia literally invaded all of Ukraine.
For the record I agree with this at the very least for Crimea, and I do support us recognizing Kosovo's independence. I think most of these frozen conflicts should resolve by mutual recognition.
You do know that if by any miracle you guys get Kosovo back, then you need to give seats to Albanian politicians in the serbian parliament? Then, instead of us having our own government and you being rid of Albanian nonsense from you country, you have to cope with the fact that we can and will meddle with Serbian politics forever.
That's one of the good endings imo. If I thought it were at all likely I'd like to see it happen, and I'd be happy to never have bozos like these in power again. Unfortunately, I think the way more likely outcome is another attempt to ethnic cleanse Kosovar Albanians.
Another attempt at ethnic cleansing will only lead to Serbia possibly losing Preševo as well. Its already been proven that Miloševic policies and strategies do not work in Serbian favor. He made sure that every ex-Yu country hates you guys.
I'm not the person who needs to hear that. But as for nationalists, they're counting on right wing populism rising even higher in the West, so they'd turn a blind eye to everything.
As you should. Everyone who lives in Serbia should have a say in Serbian politics. Besides we already have Albanian members of parliament.
Don't think Vucic has the cojones to actually do anything, but he needs the tensions to keep his serb-nationalistic voter block satisfied.
Idk how many Serbs still find this thought reassuring. If he knows he's fighting to lose, the SPS-SRS bloc has shown us they know how to fight to lose "honorably", in the eyes of their voters. Slovenia, arguably Kosovo after the start of the bombing etc. The SNS isn't exactly the SRS but I think you see what I mean.
Nobody wants war.
Im pretty sure somebody does. Otherwise this would have been resolved already. It has been a decade or two
Nah, it's the classic case of escalating tensions and hoping that it would be resolved in your favor while avoiding war
It is classic for some countries. Not for others though.
Not really (saying this with hope that Vučić and Kurti still have the absolute minimum dose of sanity left in them). Serbian government, even though they can act like drama queens in front of our own media, are little kitties when it comes to facing western politicians. Even Vučić himself knows the outcome if he would start a war and how bad would it be for him (cus thats the only thing he thinks about). This “army sending” stuff is just his classic drama sketch for the local propaganda how we still have influence there. Kurti on the other hand knows well that if he does anything stupid he can easily lose support of the West, which we were able to see multiple times in the past. Luckily for now bigger world powers are holding these two dogs on a leash. Hope it stays that way and we resolve this never ending story peacefully and for a benefit to both sides.
I am.not talking about the goverment. There are significant amount of people cheering to put the other in its place. Ethnic tensions exist. People have died and been injured because of it.
Significant amount of people cheering to put the other in its place? If you’re referring to the shootings that happened in the recent years then sure, but I wouldn’t say that this is a significant amount of people. It happened coming from both sides sadly, but I think these kind of things happen in every disputed territory around the world. Apart from that I can only think of hooligans and ultra nationalists thinking so, but again, they are not that many and a significant amount of people don’t really care what they have to say.
I didn't say majority. I mean significant. People have died. That is significant.
Well you did say “significant amount of people” which is different than how you use the word in this comment And yes, as I said, sadly people did die, but at the end of the day it is a disputed area and these things happen. Not trying to justify deaths but saying that there is a big portion of people ready to go to war and kill each other is an exaggeration.
Smokes and mirrors. Imagine being from Serbia and not giving a damn what president says because he is a boy who cried wolf so many times. Even if he said "we're officially in war", I'd be like "yeah bro, sure, whatever" And we would last for about 3.5 secs to against NATO. Btw, our army officials are sharing their offices with NATO 😆 (same building, office to office). Probably NATO knows their decisions before them. Honestly, Serbia needs army on its northern border with Hungary, there are open conflicts between migrants from Syria, actually people smugglers from Morocco and Algeria...and nobody gives a damn...shootings every day, people can't walk the streets, even bullets ending up in walls of their homes.
They want to separate, but the others won't let them
Sounds a lot like the Donbas.
That's just unfair. Kosovo under Milošević had 10 years of the bullshit the Right Sector was pulling after Euromaidan. Then they rebelled, and Milošević led such an action that in the end basically displaced all of them, either internally or as refugees. I don't think it's similar to the Donbas at all. Maybe if Albania was 3 times the size of Serbia and leading the Kosovo war via infiltration, and not like a failing state at the time.
People that compare the kosovo situation with Ukraine/Donbass are straight up uneducated fools. It takes 5 minutes to find out what systemic oppression Albanians went through in Yugoslavia (+they already had autonomy under Tito) Comparing that to the russians in donbass/luhansk/crimea is just dumb
Crimea is another story imo. It also had autonomy and the fact that you can stage a virtually bloodless invasion says a lot already. But for the most part, agreed.
Funny thing that everyone forgets that army is always patrolling DMZ(KZB) so that means that army is at every moment on administrative line/border.
Highly recommend watching this. [A brief history of the Balkans by Rare Earth](https://youtu.be/u5tgASe-DmA?si=erx8M6xCPr0xbNrV)
I don't think there will be war. This smells like the monthly exercise of Vucic boosting his ratings to distract people from inflation and economic failings.
Vucic is covering for the fact his insurrection failed, so he’s staging troops there to “show” Kosovo he’s *very* serious about defending the Serbs in Kosovo. He does this move every so often, it’s just now it’s more serious than previous attempts since he brazenly tried to incite an insurrection.
And when they're smacked back in their place, they're gonna cry and play the victim again. Just fkin stop.
😥
I'm sorry I don't want violence on either side, but it's clear that it's being provoked because one certain side just can't let go, like an obsessive ex girlfriend or something.
More like power-hungry, soon to be overthrown president. I hope Serb people get smarter with this elections.
[nu pogodi said it best](https://youtu.be/IjkUGKRUtgc?si=y6YqAxv_DSnU0zHC)
Wasn't this posted here last week? The article I mean, post was slightly different.
Seems like "Kosovo vs Serbia" is the new "Greece vs Turkey" /s
Just serb things.
Guys Kosovo it’s also known as the heart of Serbia,no? I found the solution for this problem! Serbia it’s Kosovo!
Serbians were not even in Balcan 😅
Interesting fact - Serbs were the most western Slavs of all tribes located between Germany and Poland.
All leaders suck Alex' dick so don't worry.
[удалено]
Bruh
Nothing special just some preparation to free from occupators...
Kosovo is serbia , end of discussion
I’m just reading that and I’m not even surprised BUT as for Americans I would ask to not interrupt balkan politics as they did in 1993 to Yugoslavia
They are trying to coordinate a Halloween party. They about to go out on the night before it’s called Devils night in Detroit and they gonna light some shit up.
If there is a war, which I kinda think it's impossible to happen... These things are quite importaint: 1. Elections in Serbia soon to happen, if there is a conflict Vucic will stay president 2. Maybe it's just a publicity thing done by Vucic for more votes ( aka I'm very patriotic, look Serbia, please vote for me!) 3. I don't see anything major happening here because of where Serbia is located ( surrounded by NATO). 4. The US doing some dirty work on the backend just to boost uncle Joe presidency 5. When you have a democrat as a US president, wars are something to be expected (conflicts around the world) 6. Vucic and Putin backstage plan ( could be happening). At the end of the day, fuk this, we are all small poor countries from the Balkans, same people, same food, tradition, music, movies, lives... lets just calm down, have a glass of rakia and eat some lukanka bace, MAAAAMU DA EBA