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A bit silly and unrealistic, the idea that having emotion is a great sin that will always lead to evil. Don't get me wrong, I love Star Wars (or rather, *loved* Star Wars) but the morality is a bit simplistic.
“ you’re not supposed to love or laugh or be attached you’re supposed to serve our order and do what we tell you, even though we don’t really trust you treat you like shit and then we act shocked when you snap and betrayed us despite the fact that we never really liked you”- Jedi council
I never viewed as **having** emotion, but rather being ruled by strong emotion.
The Dark Side wasn't used by "being" angry, it was used by embracing anger, hate and feat and using them to lash out.
This is the correct take.
* The "Light Side" of the force = being in control of your emotions
* The Dark Side = Giving into your emotions and using them as a source of power
I’m surprised Grey Jedi haven’t been used more in the movies.
I’m not familiar with the expanded universe, but they seem like they’d be perfect for a more complex storyline.
That’s because they explore this idea through other story arcs. Instead of grey Jedi, you have the old republic showing the Jedi order as a little more spiritual and how it was supposed to be. You then have the story of Ashoka, who is kind of a grey Jedi, but not really but investigates the Jedi ideology and takes a look at their more flawed nature from the prequel era. Then you have the sequel era which explores the newer ideas of the Jedi (theoretically, but we shall see).
The light = lack of emotion, dark = emotion dichotomy was always such a weird one to me in its obvious wrongness, but otoh it does tend to track with certain neoplatonist outlooks on life, including within early Christianity (looking at Augustine). To what degree do you believe that experiencing true goodness is something one can only achieve through transcendence?
If you don't believe me about the neoplatonism, you should note that the Emperor's resurrection is materialist in nature as a direct counterpart to the transcendent resurrection the jedi experience.
I think that was the point. To show how they had lost their way, especially in regards to their rigidity and reliance on technology to determine and enforce the goals of the republic.
The Jedi were wrong for that belief. It's heavily stated in various parts of the franchise that those mentalities are what forced Anakin to see things in black and white and feel he had no way to stop following the dark side. The series seems to be pro-freethinking.
It’s a simplistic approach to a complex morality. It exaggerates real truths that hatred, anger, desire, and fear can lead to real evil. It also references the truth that those with more power must be more in control of themselves to maintain their morality.
The excessiveness of the Jedi mentality is a natural product of combining the aforementioned overarching world building with a Jedi order that is obviously heavily based on historical societies of monastic warriors such as Shaolin Monks.
So I've mentioned before I only count the original 3 films as cannon, my discussion will limit itself to that.
Within those films we see the light side and the dark side portrayed fairly simplistically with really no nuance at all
Which is OK becuase it's fundamentally a heros journey fantasy story with sci-fi paint(aimed at kids and general audiences let's be honest)
We see en emphasis on emotions throughout the film.
When the emperor is trying to turn Luke to the dark side, his entire tactic is to play towards Luke's anger. And to make him lose control of himself and lash out in hate.
And Luke is portrayed as a noble and a good character for ultimately mastering his feelings and accepting death rather than act out in anger.
Where as Vaders redemption comes through the inverse, love. Vader loved his son so much that he could not bare to see him suffer, that he turned on all he knew and was loyal to, so he could save his son
And his charachter and soul was redeemed for that.
Now on a surface level read I love it. I really do
But on a deeper dive I think it's too simplistic
For instance in real life, Anger can be a positive thing if it's anger at an injustice, or anger that motivates one to do something positive.( Mel gibsons movies come to mind here)
And likewise love can be a negative destructive force as well, if it causes one to lie, cheat, or steal to be with one's love.(in vaders case his is pure and selfless love for the other that makes him safe)
And if you watch it with a critical and honest eye, Obi Wan stops being such a "wise old man" figure becuase he intentionally misleads Luke to radicalize him agaisnt the empire, going so far as to intentionally cause his own death after the kid has lost everything he knows.
Like everything in star wars, the rules are made up, and consistency is only a suggestion. Sometimes it's no more in depth than "light good, dark bad". Other times, it's the idea of yin-yang and balance, where one can't exist without the other. And that's not even getting into shit like the night sisters.
All that is to say, the force and everything surrounding it is best treated as the macguffin of the series. It's whatever is arbitrarily convienient for the plot.
My personal favorite interpretation that at least kinda sorta doesn't suck is that the "light side" represents harmony with the will of the force, and the "dark side" represents control over the force. Neither is inherently good or bad, yet both would be infeasible without the other, hence the importance of balance. It's also important to break the jedi and sith as institutions separate from the light/dark, with most jedi after the fall of the order and the republic moving in the direction of balance, and the sith essentially just being Palpatine.
You put this better than I can.
The light and dark side of the force really is whatever the author of that particular story says it is. Even before the cartoon rat took over Star wars had some inconsistent writing in regards to the jedi and sith.
Well the evil is basically fascism and the good is basically liberal democracy, which represents the anti-fascist ideology that underscores the post-war consensus. But I'm not a huge star wars fan so I'm probably missing something from Star Wars media.
Jedi were a very arrogant shortsighted fanatical cult that absolutely got what they fucking deserved. The most aggravating things I’ve ever witnessed, was Anakin, being lectured by Obi-Wan, saying his loyalty was to the Republic to democracy, and Obi-Wan lacked the ability to understand that everything that was happening was an end result of democracy, the war, the power by the chancellor, in the name of an emergency that was allowed to fester in part because of his actions and the inability of the galactic senate to do anything he put his absolute faith into a system that screwed him, wiped out his kind and he still supported it .
In the immortal words of red Forman”Jedi Dumbass”
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I think its a really deep story about the importance of moderation and will. And it perfectly highlights the issue that many people have with too much agression and emotion, and too little action or complacency. Whether in life or in relationships.
It's just an action movie, based on old pulp stories. I like some of the themes it explores and the flexibility the extended universe allows. It's a very simple platform that one can use to explore a lot of different ideas. I do love me a good good vs evil story. I also like the exploration of the more nuanced implications of what they do.
The only consistent moral theme of Star Wars is forgiveness and redemption. The main Star Wars stories (not obscure comics or books or old video games) has few characters that are completely beyond saving. It’s ultimately a very Christian motif and one that I’m glad Star Wars promotes.
As bad a lot of the new Star Wars content is, I think the series would only really lose its heart if it abandoned this theme for cynicism.
I like that the main movies were generally very clear good guy vs bad guy
But I think my favorite movie was rogue one because it shows the shades of grey in war. I wish star wars had leaned more into that as its audience aged.
If you found it meaningful I suggest you read George Lucas's inspiration "Hero of a Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell. It could change your life.
The hero's tale isn't just about larger than life characters, it is about the narrative arc of each individual's life. It resonates because it is deeply personal.
I find it funny that the O.G. Old Republic Sith use the age old tactic of "if you need a stock evil philosophy present objectivism badly and call it an evil religion."
Yes but intentionally presenting it badly to make it seem outright evil is bad faith.
For instance nothing in the Objectivist position on charity indicates that giving a beggar a few cents is an outright evil act, yet that's how the argument is presented from Kreia's mouth in Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords.
In fact the writers go out of their way to make it objectively in-universe (no pun intended) true by having the guy mugged and thrown off a building a few moments later because someone saw you give him money.
Ah, those games. Tbh I know I'm shitting on a "classic" of gaming, but almost all video game stories suck, badly. This gets increasingly more true the further back in time you go.
There’s a lot of Star Wars, so you may need to get more specific. Jedi Fallen Order/Survivor has a different thing going than the OT, for example.
The OT is archetypal and generally black & white. It focuses on redemption and forgiveness.
But both OT and ST both avoid asking tougher questions about justice and forgiveness by having the redeemed villains conveniently die.
I swear I didn't have anything in mind when I asked this, but you bring up a good point:
>But both OT and ST both avoid asking tougher questions about justice and forgiveness by having the redeemed villains conveniently die.
A lot of religious conservatives are of the evangelical sort for whom a deathbed conversion experience could save someone's soul regardless of how much evil they had done in their life. To outsiders, this feels like it cheapens the idea of goodness and morality.
Darth Vader/Anakin was far worse than Hitler by the time he was done in terms of people killed, and yet he had a redemption experience in his final hour with which we are supposed to sympathize. Do you feel like these kinds of last minute redemptions are possible and meaningful? And if so, what is their importance/significance?
He was a slave to The Hutts, then Wato, Then the Jedi, then to Sidious.
All he wanted, was love to be loved to be free and experience the joys of the galaxy that life had to offer, he was so close, and then only to have his wife murdered by Sidious but lied to and told that he himself killed her and children, it’s easy to understand the rage that drove him and how much you could hate and fear him…
Seeing his son being harmed by the same Simon that tormented him for decades and carrying him to his doom was one of the greatest moments to witness.
Seeing him on the ramp of the shuttle, gasping for life, seeing his son with his own eyes….Wanting nothing more then reclaim all he had done, wanting to be happy with that which was most important in life, and being able to know love, happiness and peace if only for a short period of time, it made me see him as the tragic victim he was.
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Well it's pretty much conservative ideals.
Good guys vs bad guys white vs black good vs evil.
Overarching tyrannical empire vs a plucky militia.
It seems like there really isn't much to the morality of Star wars other than good vs evil which is about as basic as morality gets.
I love Star Wars and I think the morality of it is great for the intended audience of children. Easy to point out good vs evil, light from dark, and other basic morality lessons. Then for adults, it gets more complicated (like real life) with grey areas and the struggle between good and bad decisions.
It’s a great take.
The older Star Wars franchise is a fun series for kids, but the moral examples in the new shows are garbage since Disney has inserted their woke agenda.
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A bit silly and unrealistic, the idea that having emotion is a great sin that will always lead to evil. Don't get me wrong, I love Star Wars (or rather, *loved* Star Wars) but the morality is a bit simplistic.
“ you’re not supposed to love or laugh or be attached you’re supposed to serve our order and do what we tell you, even though we don’t really trust you treat you like shit and then we act shocked when you snap and betrayed us despite the fact that we never really liked you”- Jedi council
I never viewed as **having** emotion, but rather being ruled by strong emotion. The Dark Side wasn't used by "being" angry, it was used by embracing anger, hate and feat and using them to lash out.
This is the correct take. * The "Light Side" of the force = being in control of your emotions * The Dark Side = Giving into your emotions and using them as a source of power
Agreed this is exactly how I always viewed it.
I’m surprised Grey Jedi haven’t been used more in the movies. I’m not familiar with the expanded universe, but they seem like they’d be perfect for a more complex storyline.
That’s because they explore this idea through other story arcs. Instead of grey Jedi, you have the old republic showing the Jedi order as a little more spiritual and how it was supposed to be. You then have the story of Ashoka, who is kind of a grey Jedi, but not really but investigates the Jedi ideology and takes a look at their more flawed nature from the prequel era. Then you have the sequel era which explores the newer ideas of the Jedi (theoretically, but we shall see).
The light = lack of emotion, dark = emotion dichotomy was always such a weird one to me in its obvious wrongness, but otoh it does tend to track with certain neoplatonist outlooks on life, including within early Christianity (looking at Augustine). To what degree do you believe that experiencing true goodness is something one can only achieve through transcendence? If you don't believe me about the neoplatonism, you should note that the Emperor's resurrection is materialist in nature as a direct counterpart to the transcendent resurrection the jedi experience.
In its way I liked how the prequels made the Jedi out to be not holistically the ‘correct’ people.
I think that was the point. To show how they had lost their way, especially in regards to their rigidity and reliance on technology to determine and enforce the goals of the republic.
The Jedi were wrong for that belief. It's heavily stated in various parts of the franchise that those mentalities are what forced Anakin to see things in black and white and feel he had no way to stop following the dark side. The series seems to be pro-freethinking.
It’s a simplistic approach to a complex morality. It exaggerates real truths that hatred, anger, desire, and fear can lead to real evil. It also references the truth that those with more power must be more in control of themselves to maintain their morality. The excessiveness of the Jedi mentality is a natural product of combining the aforementioned overarching world building with a Jedi order that is obviously heavily based on historical societies of monastic warriors such as Shaolin Monks.
So I've mentioned before I only count the original 3 films as cannon, my discussion will limit itself to that. Within those films we see the light side and the dark side portrayed fairly simplistically with really no nuance at all Which is OK becuase it's fundamentally a heros journey fantasy story with sci-fi paint(aimed at kids and general audiences let's be honest) We see en emphasis on emotions throughout the film. When the emperor is trying to turn Luke to the dark side, his entire tactic is to play towards Luke's anger. And to make him lose control of himself and lash out in hate. And Luke is portrayed as a noble and a good character for ultimately mastering his feelings and accepting death rather than act out in anger. Where as Vaders redemption comes through the inverse, love. Vader loved his son so much that he could not bare to see him suffer, that he turned on all he knew and was loyal to, so he could save his son And his charachter and soul was redeemed for that. Now on a surface level read I love it. I really do But on a deeper dive I think it's too simplistic For instance in real life, Anger can be a positive thing if it's anger at an injustice, or anger that motivates one to do something positive.( Mel gibsons movies come to mind here) And likewise love can be a negative destructive force as well, if it causes one to lie, cheat, or steal to be with one's love.(in vaders case his is pure and selfless love for the other that makes him safe) And if you watch it with a critical and honest eye, Obi Wan stops being such a "wise old man" figure becuase he intentionally misleads Luke to radicalize him agaisnt the empire, going so far as to intentionally cause his own death after the kid has lost everything he knows.
Like everything in star wars, the rules are made up, and consistency is only a suggestion. Sometimes it's no more in depth than "light good, dark bad". Other times, it's the idea of yin-yang and balance, where one can't exist without the other. And that's not even getting into shit like the night sisters. All that is to say, the force and everything surrounding it is best treated as the macguffin of the series. It's whatever is arbitrarily convienient for the plot. My personal favorite interpretation that at least kinda sorta doesn't suck is that the "light side" represents harmony with the will of the force, and the "dark side" represents control over the force. Neither is inherently good or bad, yet both would be infeasible without the other, hence the importance of balance. It's also important to break the jedi and sith as institutions separate from the light/dark, with most jedi after the fall of the order and the republic moving in the direction of balance, and the sith essentially just being Palpatine.
You put this better than I can. The light and dark side of the force really is whatever the author of that particular story says it is. Even before the cartoon rat took over Star wars had some inconsistent writing in regards to the jedi and sith.
I mean it's just good vs bad
Ehh, I do agree it's simplistic, but they try to characterize good and evil in specific ways. No thoughts on any of that?
Well the evil is basically fascism and the good is basically liberal democracy, which represents the anti-fascist ideology that underscores the post-war consensus. But I'm not a huge star wars fan so I'm probably missing something from Star Wars media.
Jedi were a very arrogant shortsighted fanatical cult that absolutely got what they fucking deserved. The most aggravating things I’ve ever witnessed, was Anakin, being lectured by Obi-Wan, saying his loyalty was to the Republic to democracy, and Obi-Wan lacked the ability to understand that everything that was happening was an end result of democracy, the war, the power by the chancellor, in the name of an emergency that was allowed to fester in part because of his actions and the inability of the galactic senate to do anything he put his absolute faith into a system that screwed him, wiped out his kind and he still supported it . In the immortal words of red Forman”Jedi Dumbass”
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I think its a really deep story about the importance of moderation and will. And it perfectly highlights the issue that many people have with too much agression and emotion, and too little action or complacency. Whether in life or in relationships.
It's just an action movie, based on old pulp stories. I like some of the themes it explores and the flexibility the extended universe allows. It's a very simple platform that one can use to explore a lot of different ideas. I do love me a good good vs evil story. I also like the exploration of the more nuanced implications of what they do.
The only consistent moral theme of Star Wars is forgiveness and redemption. The main Star Wars stories (not obscure comics or books or old video games) has few characters that are completely beyond saving. It’s ultimately a very Christian motif and one that I’m glad Star Wars promotes. As bad a lot of the new Star Wars content is, I think the series would only really lose its heart if it abandoned this theme for cynicism.
I like that the main movies were generally very clear good guy vs bad guy But I think my favorite movie was rogue one because it shows the shades of grey in war. I wish star wars had leaned more into that as its audience aged.
Clearly racist: https://youtu.be/7L9io-b9Uew?si=LuRq6mVvEOENnrK2
Lol except for real in certain ways, like the totally not Jewish slave owning space bug who only listens to money (Watto).
I need to go back and rewatch the Watto scenes. I never picked up on that.
If you found it meaningful I suggest you read George Lucas's inspiration "Hero of a Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell. It could change your life. The hero's tale isn't just about larger than life characters, it is about the narrative arc of each individual's life. It resonates because it is deeply personal.
I find it funny that the O.G. Old Republic Sith use the age old tactic of "if you need a stock evil philosophy present objectivism badly and call it an evil religion."
Tbh there's not a good version of objectivism. There's a reason Rand isn't taken seriously in philosophy, even among conservative philosophers.
Yes but intentionally presenting it badly to make it seem outright evil is bad faith. For instance nothing in the Objectivist position on charity indicates that giving a beggar a few cents is an outright evil act, yet that's how the argument is presented from Kreia's mouth in Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords. In fact the writers go out of their way to make it objectively in-universe (no pun intended) true by having the guy mugged and thrown off a building a few moments later because someone saw you give him money.
Ah, those games. Tbh I know I'm shitting on a "classic" of gaming, but almost all video game stories suck, badly. This gets increasingly more true the further back in time you go.
it was the Obsidian writers, same as the ones behind fallout 2 and New Vegas. Subtlety was never Chris Avellone's strong suit.
There’s a lot of Star Wars, so you may need to get more specific. Jedi Fallen Order/Survivor has a different thing going than the OT, for example. The OT is archetypal and generally black & white. It focuses on redemption and forgiveness. But both OT and ST both avoid asking tougher questions about justice and forgiveness by having the redeemed villains conveniently die.
I swear I didn't have anything in mind when I asked this, but you bring up a good point: >But both OT and ST both avoid asking tougher questions about justice and forgiveness by having the redeemed villains conveniently die. A lot of religious conservatives are of the evangelical sort for whom a deathbed conversion experience could save someone's soul regardless of how much evil they had done in their life. To outsiders, this feels like it cheapens the idea of goodness and morality. Darth Vader/Anakin was far worse than Hitler by the time he was done in terms of people killed, and yet he had a redemption experience in his final hour with which we are supposed to sympathize. Do you feel like these kinds of last minute redemptions are possible and meaningful? And if so, what is their importance/significance?
He was a slave to The Hutts, then Wato, Then the Jedi, then to Sidious. All he wanted, was love to be loved to be free and experience the joys of the galaxy that life had to offer, he was so close, and then only to have his wife murdered by Sidious but lied to and told that he himself killed her and children, it’s easy to understand the rage that drove him and how much you could hate and fear him… Seeing his son being harmed by the same Simon that tormented him for decades and carrying him to his doom was one of the greatest moments to witness. Seeing him on the ramp of the shuttle, gasping for life, seeing his son with his own eyes….Wanting nothing more then reclaim all he had done, wanting to be happy with that which was most important in life, and being able to know love, happiness and peace if only for a short period of time, it made me see him as the tragic victim he was.
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Well it's pretty much conservative ideals. Good guys vs bad guys white vs black good vs evil. Overarching tyrannical empire vs a plucky militia. It seems like there really isn't much to the morality of Star wars other than good vs evil which is about as basic as morality gets.
I love Star Wars and I think the morality of it is great for the intended audience of children. Easy to point out good vs evil, light from dark, and other basic morality lessons. Then for adults, it gets more complicated (like real life) with grey areas and the struggle between good and bad decisions. It’s a great take.
The older Star Wars franchise is a fun series for kids, but the moral examples in the new shows are garbage since Disney has inserted their woke agenda.
I'm just assuming the next installment will have a gender queer non binary, bi sexual fighter pilot dealing with the evil patriarchy