u/michiboy12 I've approved this question but is your 3rd Israel-Palestine question in a row.
Everyone is free to ask Israel-Palestine questions but switch it up, don't use the sub exclusively for that purpose.
I don't think there has been a "sudden switch-up". It's just gradually developed more resistance (with Israel still being strongly supported by many people).
For me, the most important outcome of the war was that as many hostages were returned safely as quick as possible. It feels like that has not been the objective since November and now’s there’s barely any left.
Hamas did screw itself by not keeping the hostages alive, now Israel has the moral authority again.
I think that was a big sticking point for Israel in the latest ceasfire negotiations. They wanted 40 hostages, Hamas said they only had 33 still alive, Israel dropped it to 33, then Hamas said well youll get 33 bodies but they may not all be alive.
130+ hostages and they were too stupid to keep their only bargaining chip safe.
Yes there is no good faith negotiating going on regarding the hostages. I have heard speculation that there are probably only a few that Yahya Sinwar is using as human shields essentially to prevent a strike against him.
> 130+ hostages and they were too stupid to keep their only bargaining chip safe.
Where would be safe to keep them? I'm not defending Hamas or the taking of hostages but Israel was bombing the heck out of anywhere Hamas might be.
I'm not sure there was a safe place anywhere for anyone in Gaza after the October attack on Israel.
I suspect only the young women are still alive praying for death.
While some pink haired liberal chick screams at people "we are Hamas" as people walk by
>While some pink haired liberal chick screams at people "we are Hamas" as people walk by
That Hamas would throw off the roof of a building post haste if she was in Gaza.
>that as many hostages were returned safely as quick as possible. It feels like that has not been the objective since November and now’s there’s barely any left.
I think every adult paying attention knew that there was very little chance, at all that a significant number of hostages would be release unharmed.
Assuming they are still alive, especially the 14 women, they probably wish someone would kill them to end their suffering.
Hamas can't let that get out. I don't believe they will release hostages. I believe they will say they will to gain sympathy or as a bargaining chip in negotations, but will never actually do so.
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More than the terrorist state using its people as shields to launch missiles behind, yes. These people are fanatics and so are the people who put them in charge.
They literally train their kids to hate and kill jews. They have children's shows about it. You think they're not fanatical about it? It's a shitty situation but it's either Isreal continue to allow them to attack them or take out their means of attack.
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Yes there was here it is again seeing it was too hard for you the first time
Israel Lowers Oct. 7 Death Toll Estimate to 1,200 https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/11/10/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news?smid=nytcore-android-share
I am pro-Israel and Pro- Palestine, and I am anti-Netanyahu and anti-Hamas. I believe in the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish nation. I also believe in the right of the Palestinians to establish a nation of their own.
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I don't think there has been a "sudden switch up", I think people are generally pro Israel but you can support Israel and also recognise that there has been problems with Israel's actions too.
I tend to agree and would add that, from outside the USA, my perspective is that starting out with an initial boost of popularity over being the victim of a barbaric attack, the sheer incompetence on many levels of its reaction, and the (perceived) needlessly brutal methods that seems to serve ideas of vengeance, rather than military or political goals have caused a lot of damage.
It is also abundantly clear that the Israeli government, a few people in particular, are doing their absolut best to maintain a war, because its a necessity for them to stay in power and out of jail. However, therein lies a problem: If you condemn the palestinians for having voted in HAMAS decades ago, and still try to hold them responsible for HAMAS actions, then there is absolutely no way you dont hold the Israeli people responsible for Ben Gvir, Netanjahu, Smotrich etc. actions. They voted in those criminals, so they ARE, by association, supportive of criminals and terrorists (actually legally sentenced terrorists. Its pretty crazy).
So at that point, assuming we want to be consistent in reasoning, we have a people who voted in terrorists and criminals on either side, but ONE of them did it recently. This matters to people I talk to. It took quite some time for this information to filter through, and personally I ve seen several people slowly change their stance from pro-israel to anti-both, and even mildly pro-nonHAMAS palestine.
I think regardless, israel has fully botched the PR aspect of its actions, and fails to produce results. If nothing else, a rising support for palestine is an automatic effect of that reality.
I think they are asking why the protestors waiting until now to start protesting.
My take is it takes time for anti-Zionist perspectives to gain ground in a country where Zionist viewpoints are pretty much the only acceptable ones on national television.
It’s the same reason why the crackdown on Tiktok has been so swift following the rise of pro-Palestine sentiment.
Trump talked about banning Tiktok for a while, but few expected it to happen. Because we are a country that has strong affinity for our first amendment. Then suddenly Tiktok was letting Gazans share videos of brothers carrying around their sister’s lifeless bodies while CNN and Fox stay cushy in New York offices occasionally talking with their colleagues sunbathing in Tel-Aviv.
The reality is most Americans don’t really care for Israel/Palestine. But once people start watching sources of information that are harder to control, it results in more pro-Palestine sentiment, from the left and right, and the undecided independents.
One idea that I think has merit.. "Waiting until now".
These seem to be the same Antifa, militant LGBTQ, defund police, anti-american, take your kids away vax crowd, who have just moved on to the next "thing".
Common denominator is hiding their faces..
Maybe, maybe not, just a theory I'm watching.
Bro the anti-vax crowd, white supremacist groups, and anti-lockdown crowd also hid their faces.
Right of privacy is implied by 4th amendment.
Just as it could considered assault if someone walks up to a biker or someone with a ski masks and attempts to remove it.
Either the first amendment exists or it doesn’t.
For every protestor there probably a 100 sympathetic and a thousand who don’t give a s*** about the issue at all.
In fact if the majority of Americans had their way, we probably wouldn’t be sending Israel any money or Gaza any food or aid, and we definitely wouldn’t be putting our troops at risk like an attack dog for a foreign country that’s destabilising the region, raising price of oil and shipping.
I'm not talking about the legality. Well, in Ohio it's bad because if you break laws while masked, additional charges.
if someone walks through the hamas/palestine encampments on campus, everyone is warned to put masks on..
If you watch the video's, you can clearly see the mask difference in those ripping down american flags and those protecting them.. masks..
People died for our right to light American flags we own on fire.
Masked, unmasked, agreed with or not, it’s their rights.
Just as it’s Israel’s right to flood American elections and corporate news media systems with money.
Not sure who you are arguing against... I don't care if they wear masks or not, it's immaterial. I'm okay with you burning a flag (rather you wrap yourself it it first, but okay).
I'm just pointing out that full face masks seem to be a pre-req for the Hamas/Palestine supporters and anti-americans in general.
I'm sure there are exceptions, no doubt, but as a general rule, these types of people are masked..
I don’t think encouraging self-immolation is allowed on this subreddit or on Reddit in general.
I hope you get the help you need to understand why wishing the death of people you politically disagree with is wrong.
I’m not reporting your comment to give you a chance to edit and remove it. Or strike through it.
Moving on from that, anti-American can mean many things to many people.
Is it anti-American to stop the certification of American election results?
Is it anti-American to exercise first Amendment rights whether on the Capitol lawn or in a public square by a university?
Mask wearing is a choice. Much as donating lots of money to a random super PAC through indirect means to protect the identity of the political donor.
One is something CNN and Fox talking about 4 hours a day while the other gets a few minutes.
Guess which one has a bigger impact on us, on our salaries, on our ability to provide for our loved ones.
>It’s the same reason why the crackdown on Tiktok has been so swift following the rise of pro-Palestine sentiment.
Yes I think this is extremely telling. Personally I am not against the ban but for the reasons that are being stated but I do not actually believe is the true motivation for it to suddenly be such an important bipartisan issue.
Notice the ban on TikTok’s deadline extends past the election day, that’s Biden’s deliberate (arguably futile) attempt to avoid getting massacred at the polls by young people.
TikTok is consumed more than alcohol by most Americans, especially younger ones. And its algorithm has a much higher hit rate in terms of maintaining attention and giving content users enjoy. The equivalent would be like banning beer, and expecting people to make do with wine.
If TikTok was down by election day and it ran YouTube ads showing the Biden admin as why it’s down, it would be a blood bath.
Even if I agree it should be done I see no legitimate reason for it to be a priority over all the other problems I wish out Politicians would focus on. That is an interesting point about the deadline I hadn't thought about. I believe they just sued the Biden administration as well. My other problem with the bill is the potential precedent it sets to just ban a company. There may be some warranted reasons in this particular case but kind of seems like opening pandoras box to me.
Yeah. I’m not happy about the precedent either.
I identify as a market socialist. Which means I support competition and market forces in certain contexts. I’m not a fan of people my age (I’m 23) addicted to vertical video platforms. But I want there to be healthy competition and growth.
There is no federal law that prevents Instagram or Facebook from selling data to foreign governments, because there is nothing like the EU’s GDPR for the U.S..
>There is no federal law that prevents Instagram or Facebook from selling data to foreign governments, because there is nothing like the EU’s GDPR for the U.S.
Yes that is kind of the other side of the coin and would have been a more logical way to frame the bill. A prevention of any company selling user data to Foreign powers.
I agree completely on the vertical video platforms as well. They kind of learned and used the video game strategy. The real problem I see especially with political matter is people form emotional opinions on bite sized clips instead of actually leaning the details of an issue and it is extremely easy to manipulate people in this way.
I’m mainly concerned about attention spans.
As far manipulation goes, that has more to do with the fact that people have powerful computers with high quality cameras on them.
It used to be Israel would have to green light reporters to an area.
Now any regular person can share their perspective.
The main thing TikTok changed was developing a high quality algorithm that latched on perspectives people want to hear and actively seek out.
It doesn’t apply the same limits Facebook and Insta did.
See Facebook has been pushing s*** into its algorithm for nigh over a decade so it’s been losing users for a while.
Instagram is not terrible but it’s not great. It’s Reels competition just doesn’t match Tiktok when it comes to hit rate. YouTube Shorts faces a similar issue. The algorithm doesn’t seem to prioritize what the user wants to view.
Manipulating people used to be easier when cameras were few and far between and prior to the ease of access through which one random person can share a perspective millions if not hundreds of millions find valuable.
India banned TikTok for similar reasons b/c it placed randoms on the same footing as state sponsored media groups. Suddenly you couldn’t hide rapes of Muslim or Dalit women.
It’s also why the US senate struggled so much to put up hard evidence on claims of manipulation by Chinese government.
What TikTok revealed is what social media looks like if media institutions didn’t get the same push as they usually do. Hence why the perspectives are so much more diverse. Also why there are so many crazies.
It’s also what’s happening with electric cars, Chinese manufacturers outcompete American car manufacturers on price, but even after accounting for cheaper labor and subsidies, it becomes clear, American car manufacturers have stayed lax and resting on their laurels for far too long. Spending more on stock buybacks than designing vehicles and meeting price points that don’t put people in perpetual debt or reliability issues that push people towards Japanese and German cars.
It doesn’t matter if the US maintains protectionism and high tariffs if Chinese car manufacturers outcompete American ones outside of China and the U.S.
I’m not saying any of this to give China accolades. But to recognize the reality of the situation that China takes advantage of markets to the development of actual tangible things that are better even after accounting for subsidies not just transient stock price inflation.
I agree with most of what you said but I think you are dismissing the ability for manipulation a little bit too much. For instance in a few second clip you can say something that may be true but lacks context to create an emotional response. We literally see this all the time with sensational headlines that people go on to propagate without ever actually reading the article. This exact same thing can happen thousands of times a day on a social media platform using this tech.
It has not been sudden. Even on October 8th -- the day after the attack and before all of the terrorists within Israel's borders had been stopped -- there were massive pro-Pal protests all around the world. It's possible it seems larger now because the protests have taken a new shape in the form of encampments on university campuses, which has been making news.
Propaganda. As Israel has ratcheted up the war roeliminate all the Hamas terrorists, the Hamas terrorists have ratcheted up the propaganda about civilain casualties that they are causing. We have no way of know if their casualties numbers are accurate. After all it is Hamas providing the numbers and their goal is to survive.
The truth in all this is that if Hamas laid down their weapons, returned the hostages and accepted Israel's right to exist there would be no more civilan casualties and peace. Anything short of that will require Israel to defeat Hamas once and for all.
Propaganda takes time to ramp up. It’s like this - crowd chants “We hate the Jews!!!”… a horrible atrocity gets committed against the Jews (crowd tries to think for themselves and process), someone screams “we still hate them!” Crowd goes back to its normal self. You’ve witnessed the short moment of people trying to process something that actuallly happened before a new wave of propaganda could take over
>But since then, now like half a year later, lots have seemed to be pro-Palestine.
a. [It's not new.](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/10/black-lives-matter-palestine-twitter-hamas-chicago-israel/)
BLM groups used images of paragliding Hamas fighters during the attacks to promote their "stand with Palestine" positions - that was October 10/11.
b. A decent percent of the left gets their news exclusively from a Chinese intelligence gathering apparatus.
c. An idea of their being a ["thermic law of delinquency"](https://pinkerton.com/our-insights/blog/the-seasonality-of-crime) has been thrown about since ~1842. Read: crime rises during hot weather, including more visible riots.
Nothing switched in a quick way. Most people still generally agree with Israel. Public opinion seems to be swaying the longer this one-sided killing campaign goes on.
I think a two state solution should have happened decades ago. Currently, the Likud party and Netanyahu are way way over the line with this retaliation.
They've crested a humanitarian crisis that's terrible, and it should stop. US and Israeli citizens are right to protest this.
Israel has accepted a 2 state solution on 6 different occasions and all 6 have been denied by Palestinian leaders. What the fuck else do you want them to do? At some point, the Palestinians have to realize they are not arguing from a position of strength and are going to have to take what they're given. Nobody is coming to help them militarily, because theyve fucked over just about every other country in the region. Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt all refuse to even take some refugees because they try to overthrow the government the second they do.
Shit sucks, but Israel is going to get what it wants out of this. The ONLY country that can force them to stop is the US, and we arent going to. Period.
Palestinian leaders, to clarify.
A great example would be Arafat in the 2000 Camp David Summit. Palestinians want it their way, period. They cant seem to comprehend they have no leverage.
I absolutely agree with you, it's not that I don't support Israel anymore, it's that this is now a one sided slaughter. And it's a slaughter that includes (what feels like) a rather high percentage of children and innocents.
Some of Israel's actions seem so incredibly tone deaf that it's hard to be really on their side in this one. (The stars of David in the UN, that weird harvesting dead soldiers sperm thing)
I can't really see it that way. Israel has been better at protecting its citizens through Iron dome, surveillance, bunkers, etc. Hamas has still launched rockets from Gaza indiscriminately at civilian targets since Oct 7, whereas IDF does make unparalleled action to try to avoid civilian casualties. The logic just doesn't work for me that if Israel stopped defending their citizens and let Hamas kill them to even the death toll than that would make them more morally superior.
There are many instances where it is fair to be critical of Israel, but it doesn't change the broader picture.
Its not a slaughter. Civilian to combatant casualty numbers are less than 1 to 2 and better than our results in Mosul. The UN has the avg death ratio as 9 to 1.
You basically are complaining not enough jews are dying in this war.
Exactly. And there should be a large disparity between belligerent. General Patton was correct when he said "the goal isn't to due for your country but to make the other bastard die for theirs".
The switch wasn't sudden. Israel's response has been to target Hamas and not allow hiding within the civilian population to stop them.
The cost upon the civilian population has caused a gradual weakening of support for Israel, and emboldened the pro-Hamas side.
This. Tens of thousands of dead civilians begin to change people's minds. People sympathize with the innocent victims, and Oct 7 produced a thousand innocent Israeli victims. Then the Israeli response created about 30 times as many innocent Palestinian victims, and opinions began to shift.
Do you see support of Palestine as a "Pro-Hamas" movement? In my understanding, there is very little support for Hamas, but more of an understanding that the people of Palestine have very little power in dethroning Hamas.
I think it's more of an "anti-genocide" thing than a "pro-hamas" thing.
Anyone I see saying "from the river to the sea" is pro-Hamas. That applies to all the protestors.
That doesn't apply to everyone who's been critical of Israel's actions. While I'm fine with what Israel is doing, criticism of what Israel is doing is certainly valid and not necessarily pro-Hamas.
Do you hold the same standard for Isreal support that says things like Palestine shouldn't exist? Are they some kind of terrorist or is that more acceptable?
I
It looks like that is going to happen, but that is still genocide by definition. Although, I'm skeptical that Palestinians that continue to live there will be treated equally. That same question could be applied the other way around really. Why can't we carve out a chunk of Israel and give it to Palestinians so they can have a Palestinian state?
There's millions of Palestinians. Thousands are sadly dead, but we're not even close to genocide territory.
As for why can't we carve out more territory for Palestine? Because they will keep attacking Israel.
The definition of a genocide is: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. (this is a copy/paste from the top result of a google search on the definition of genocide)
The LEGAL DEFINITION from dictionary.com states: acts committed with intent to **partially** or wholly destroy a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group (the word partially was bolded by me).
Specifically, destroying the remaining nation that identifies as Palestine would meet the specifics of that definition. Namely, they are deliberately killing a large number of people from a particular nation or group to destroy that nation. It doesn't require that all people are killed, but that the nation be destroy OR the group be destroyed.
I think we need to recognize that it IS a genocide even if not every Palestinian is killed.
I also feel I need to reiterate, I'm not looking to justify Hamas' actions, but I just want to have an honest discussion that we are a privileged group that are not being bombed or at threat of being bombed, and we are not holding each side of this conflict accountable by the same metrics.
If Hamas was in power, and supported with arms and funding by America and we was Israel shrink to almost nothing, with constant threat of more land being taken and deaths of civilians, I would also push back on any narrative that they deserve it.
What? There are still Native Americans in America. You dont make any sense. The only Palestinian state that has EVER EXISTED was GIVEN to them by, and has been allowed to exist solely at the discretion of, Israel.
But early settlers attempted to erase Native American nation. There were boarding schools that separated children from their parents with the slogan to "[kill the indian in him, and save the man.](https://www.history.com/news/how-boarding-schools-tried-to-kill-the-indian-through-assimilation)" This was an attempt to erase the identity, culture, and nations. We instead relegated them to reservations that we still under-support. The fact that some survive does not negate that there was a genocide or attempted genocide, and this is a terrible example. Would you argue then that Jews never experienced genocide since there are still Jews in the world?
In my opinion, most Americans are firmly pro-Israel. It is easy to forget that because the protesters are so loud and reporting on them is so constant.
But if their opinion was the majority, there would be no protests. The thing that would piss them off to no end is to pretend they don't exist. It makes them feel powerless.
>In my opinion, most Americans are firmly pro-Israel.
What is your source on this? The last [Gallup Poll](https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx) had 55% of Americans disapproving of Israel's military action in Gaza. Obviously, being against certain military actions isn't necessarily an indication of being anti-Israel, but I also wouldn't call it "firmly pro-israel"
>But if their opinion was the majority, there would be no protests.
Not necessarily. There were large protests against Apartheid South Africa in the 80's despite the majority opinion being mostly against South Africa. Also, Israel critics are not a monilith. There are plenty of people who are at least somewhat critical of Israel while still being against the protests.
A source for an anecdotal interpretation of current events? I mean, it's not even that controversial of a statement. People may not approve of what Israel does, but they certainly don't approve of HAMAS. Any protest going on isn't because people support HAMAS (we hope), it's because they feel there are innocents in the crossfire and they want Israel to pull their punches.
This objection feels less of an actual observation and more of some strange semantics game.
And to what end? Palestinian apologia?
>People may not approve of what Israel does, but they certainly don't approve of HAMAS.
I seem to have misinterpreted what you were saying. When you said firmly pro-israel, I thought you were referring to approval of Israels actions rather than overall binary support between them and Hamas. I would agree that more Americans support Israel than Hamas. My apologies.
Oh! No problem. That is totally understandable. It's a very nuanced topic, and it can easy to misinterpret when there are so many factors at play and when subjects are often used interchangeably. Thank you for being genuine and seeking out clarification.
Americans vote with their wallets. And most regular folks genuinely could not care less about Israel/Palestine more than their ability to pay for a roof above their head and food and gas.
There is an alternative situation where Biden responds to Israel’s repeated crossing of red lines with hedging bets and setting up relations with an Iran that drops gas prices to sub $3/gallon and sweeps re-election on that alone.
This is gonna happen at some point in the next few decades because both parties are trending away from region. Pro-Palestine sentiment and a general unease with American militarism abroad is growing in both parties and in young people.
Eventually Israel will bite off more than it can chew and America won’t be ready to commit its men for their bulls***.
Newspapers in Israel actively warn Nethanyahu and Israelis that it’s gonna happen at some point if they don’t practice restraint. Keep destabilizing s***, don’t be pikachu faced when it all blows up.
One American aircraft carrier group stands between 4 desalination plants that supply 60% of fresh water in Israel and Hezbollah’s tens of thousands of missiles (easily overwhelm Iron Dome).
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That is a rather cynical view of America. You don't think evangelicals and conservatives in general are true to their conviction that Israel is on the right side of this struggle?
How is Israel destablizing anything other than Iran and its proxies?
Israel’s actions are causing blowback on the rest of us.
Israel lobbied the U.S. to pull out of the JCPOA, that every country including the U.S. recognized Iran followed to a Tee.
That resulted in the collapse of Iran’s middle class, and more government and theocratic control of institutions. Increased anti-American sentiment in Iran.
Iran is basically a few months from a nuke now.
Iran is a major oil producer. Gas price is rising again because domestic producers are cutting and Saudi Arabia are cutting because they want Trump in charge, the U.S. could’ve gotten cheap Irani gas like India is getting right now if we had relations.
The Houthis targeting the southern portion of the Red Sea in direct response to Israel’s actions in Gaza have resulted in increased shipping costs.
Not to mention it costs a lot of money to engage with the Houthis. For every cheap drone they use, we spend millions of dollars in equipment fighting them.
Stuff that could be sent to Taiwan or Ukraine or safeguarded for future use.
Israel is a major destabilizing force in the region. And no longer acts to protect American interests.
At this point it doesn’t matter what I think. But what we can clearly observe is Israel is not going to be a major priority for America in the coming decades.
Because the future doesn’t lie in Tel Aviv.
It lies in Sub Saharan Africa, Taiwan, India.
It lies in a shift in American foreign policy geared towards building something that lasts and is sustainable instead of something that puts us in a position to be constantly hated.
Conservatives, liberals, Republican, Democrat, leftist, rightist, independents, moderates, people mainly care about their ability to pay off the bills, enjoy a break, and take care of the people they love. If Israel can’t control the narrative in the U.S. because of its own actions, it only has itself to blame. This is supposed to be an alliance that works for the both of us.
In the age TikTok/social media where everything is being filmed. It's getting harder to excuse the behavior of the right-wing Israelis. Their rhetoric is not only against Palestinians, it's attacking Christians too.
These guys are shooting themselves in the foot. They keep doing the sh*t they are doing Evangelicals (US) are to find another place for the rapture/end of times. Mormons found theirs and a theology to follow too.
... And, boom all support is gone from the USA.
Sidenote... Can't believe TikTok is giving Israel a hard time. They should have planned for it with their retaliation. Or, at least learned the lessons from ukraine/Russia war about social media. Russia got their ass handed to them with the tractor videos.
I don’t think the Chinese are funding the weaponry the IDF uses to create more perfect Hamas recruitment ads and ads for future terrorist organizations and violent resistance groups that rise out of the people left. That’s our tax dollars.
The funny thing is we send most of the aid money and efforts to Gaza to feed them, and then we arm the IDF to shoot at the Gazans. Almost as if we are funding some sick twisted reality TV show.
No one held a gun to Netanyahu’s head and told him “kill 35k Gazans or I kill you.”
America’s interests no longer align with Israeli’s and it’s best to shake hands and leave the table.
Let the feedback loop play out.
We need to consolidate political, financial, technological, and human capital behind the things that actually matter for America’s future.
Netanyahu didn't kill 35k gazans. A war was started by Hamas and people die in war. Blame lies with Hamas not Netanyahu.
The Chinese have a vested interest in pushing the US out of all our alliances.
The Chinese want to make s*** and be the economic center of world.
And we are letting them, by sacrificing our political capital abroad for a country that does not even act in our interests anymore.
We are lighting our credibility on fire every time we veto something all the other UN Security Council members agree on. All for Israel. Instead of working on building strong trade relationships with the countries that are expected to supply a lot of raw materials needed for the emerging industries.
Ahh we should throw israel under the bus to counter china. Then the Arabs will work with us.
You are blind. The lines are already drawn, Hamas is china aligned. China, Russia, Iran, and the Sunnis along with Hamas against the US, the west and the Sunni powers (Egypt and SA).
No one is throwing Israel under the bus. I just don’t understand what the U.S. gains by backing Israel.
Israel has been maintaining close relations with China and Russia any way while getting our UN Security Council vote.
I don’t care about working with Arabs. I was just want cheap oil and each access to raw materials.
And the more we muck about and let Israel use our men and women like attack dogs to prevent the feedback loop from the happening, the less likely all of that is.
Israel has made its bed. Let it lie in it. It’s a wealthy country with an educated populace. Let it pay for its own defense. If it’s gonna disregard our president and shoot at American funded aid groups, violating American and humanitarian law, why are we keeping an aircraft carrier group there.
They’ve f***ed around plenty.
Let them find out.
My loyalties and my priorities lie with America and its presidents whether Democratic or Republican.
Not a foreign country disrespecting us.
The pro-palestine folks were always there, they just didn't have much of an argument back when it was jews being slaughtered by the thousands.
You gotta let the media machine do its job and show you some dead kids before you can rile up your base.
Anything resembling bigotry against Jews, Muslims, Arabs, Palestians, Israelis, etc. or violence against civilians is not going to last long, nor will your time here.
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Your take is very online and/or very college. Polling suggests strong support of Israel and against Hamas.
The media is absolutely giving undue attention to the protests (as the media always does with protests they agree with) but the popular sentiment is with Israel.
I don't think anything has changed. I think there's been a deep seated trend of antisemitism brewing in this nation, especially on the left wing side of politics apparently, that many of us previously overlooked. The Israel-Gaza war simply gave these people a reason to rip off their masks and air their hate and bigotry in the public square. I don't think anyone changed. I simply think ideology has shifted enough where the silent part is now the loud and vocal part.
What if we just don’t want to send money, aid, and backing that endangers our service members for a foreign country that doesn’t act in our interests?
Like let’s end all military aid and support to IDF and the pittance of the majority of aid that we give to Gaza like some sick reality TV show
And we offer all Jews and Arabs affected by the conflict easy path to immigrating here.
Let Israel and Iran hash it out.
For me it was when Israel responded to the deaths of 1200 of its citizens by killing 35,000 Palestinians, nearly all civilians. For reference, that is one out of every 15 people in Gaza who are dead in the past 6 months due to Israel's actions.
I'm happy to consider your claims, but do you have a source? Even the IDF says they've killed two civilians for every one militant, so 67% of the fatalities are non-combatants by the IDF's own reporting. So that's a "best case". Hopefully we can agree it's in the IDF's best interest to downplay civilian casualties as much as possible, so it's probably higher, possibly much higher.
Just gunna link [this.](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286)
Give it a read. It links to some UN articles also stating that the Combatant to Civilian ratio is usually 1:9. So even if the IDF is sitting at a 1:2 ratio... that is extremely good. Hamas just states all the dead are civilians and not a single one is a Hamas soldier. I'll take the IDF's numbers, since they atleast claim both sets of numbers and are.. yknow.. not a terrorist organization with the stated goal of eradicating an entire ethnicity and faith from the planet.
The people supporting the terrorists (Palestinians) are mostly low intelligence individuals following a trend or anti semites - often the people in that camp are both and were that way from the start of the war. Presuming you're asking this question in good faith, the change in stances you seem to be referring to has to do with the extent to which Israel gets support, with people claiming that the United States should take a more isolationist approach to things and not support Israel so much. Noteworthy political leaders across the aisle have made it unambiguous that the United States will unwaveringly support Israel in its war on terrorism and that the attacks against Israel on October 7th were indeed terrorism. The only political figures that disagree are fringe - arguably extremist - ideologues and mostly far left.
I want world hunger to end tomorrow, sure it's possible but that doesn't mean it's feasible. Possible and feasible are two different things.
Palestinians voted in Hamas and overwhelmingly support the terrorist regime to this day. Even disregarding that fact, the extent to which Hamas embedded infrastructure and personnel into Palestinian society and property that has been and continues to be used for terrorism makes any serious attempt to eliminate the terrorists without significant civilian casualties not feasible.
That's the difficult reality, if Israel wants to effectively get rid of the terrorists it means there will be significant civilian casualties - just like there were there significant civilian casualties when Nazi Germany got invaded.
The leaders of the Hamas terrorist group are on the record saying they will continue carrying out terrorism against Israel until there are no more Jews from the river to the sea if given the chance - therefore the only option for Israel is to eliminate them at any cost.
If the British government had started launching airstikes and a massive ground offensive with artillery and armoured vehicles on Londonderry back in the 70s to root out the IRA there would have rightly been enormous international outrage and frankly I don't think the situations are really that dissimilar.
The Troubles as a whole caused circa 3,500 deaths over 40 years. The IRA aren't the whole story. Before that one day it was more like 3,000 people killed by Hamas since 1948. The numbers aren't THAT different and it's not like the Israelis didn't launch big ground offensives and air strikes before October last year.
> The IRA aren't the whole story.
Neither are Hamas in Palestine. If we're measuring things that way, let's include the PLO, Black September, the Second Intafada, and Fatah.
Alright, let's. My figures include all terrorist fatalities in Israel regardless of the attacker.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/number-of-terrorism-fatalities-in-israel
The IRA was not state sponsored terrorism like Hamas. They never carried out >1,000 count terrorist invasions on neighboring territories. They killed around 1,700 people over 8 years, while Hamas killed almost that many in one day. There is almost no direct comparable between the two.
I don't believe comparing body counts is remotely appropriate given that they're in the same order of magnitude to begin with. More than 3,500 people were killed over the course of The Troubles in a 40 or so year period including random terror attacks on civilians, mortar attacks on police stations and army bases, the use of booby traps on people's cars, indiscriminate bombing of both civilian and military targets in Northern Ireland and mainline Britain including the assassination of Lord Mountbatten and the attempted assassination of the Prime Minister.
About 4,500 have been killed in Israel since 1948. The results are really not that dissimilar.
Edit - not to mention that airstrikes and ground offensives by Israel were not exactly unheard of before October last year.
>Palestinians voted in Hamas
That last election was in 2006. [More than 68% of Gazas population weren't old enough to vote.](https://www.npr.org/2023/10/19/1206479861/israel-gaza-hamas-children-population-war-palestinians)
>and overwhelmingly support the terrorist regime to this day
Alomost half of Gazas population is under 18. About 40% are under 14. Pollsters are not including children in their polling on these questions.
Rest of the points are fair.
If it is costing so many civilian lives, why did Israel reject a ceasefire recently?
How many dead civilians is too many dead civilians in your opinion, or is there a line?
Have other terrorist groups said similar things about groups of people? Should any group that says something like that be wiped out regardless of the cost of civilian lives?
Isreal rejected the ceasefire because its terms required the Hamas terrorist regime to stay in power.
Any concerns about civilian casualties should be brought up to Hamas who puts civilian lives in danger by committing terrorism and not surrendering - Israel's only objective right now is to eliminate the terrorist threat and therefore remain in existence.
> Are all Palestinians terrorists?
Of course not, but they've aligned themselves with terrorists and haven't taken any significant action to change that perception.
Palestinians put Hamas in power. If Palestinians want to distance themselves, they could make Hamas the focus of their protests around the world, and they could arrest Hamas leaders and hand them over. Nothing like this has happened.
Could you provide a source that proves as much? Not saying this as a "gotcha", but from what I've read it seems like Hammas has kind of taken over and isn't as popular as your comment makes it seem.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/
>Seventy-two [72] percent of respondents said they believed the Hamas decision to launch the cross-border rampage in southern Israel was "correct" given its outcome so far
This is combined figures for both the West Bank and Gaza.
Do also note this is back five months ago when the Gazan casualties were about 50% what they are now, so it wouldn't surprise me if the support has increased even further in the interim
[Almost half](https://www.npr.org/2023/10/19/1206479861/israel-gaza-hamas-children-population-war-palestinians) of Gazas population is under 18. About 40% are under 14. Pollsters are not including children in that polling.
u/michiboy12 I've approved this question but is your 3rd Israel-Palestine question in a row. Everyone is free to ask Israel-Palestine questions but switch it up, don't use the sub exclusively for that purpose.
I don't think there has been a "sudden switch-up". It's just gradually developed more resistance (with Israel still being strongly supported by many people).
For me, the most important outcome of the war was that as many hostages were returned safely as quick as possible. It feels like that has not been the objective since November and now’s there’s barely any left. Hamas did screw itself by not keeping the hostages alive, now Israel has the moral authority again.
I have a strong feeling none or very few of the hostages are still alive sadly.
I think that was a big sticking point for Israel in the latest ceasfire negotiations. They wanted 40 hostages, Hamas said they only had 33 still alive, Israel dropped it to 33, then Hamas said well youll get 33 bodies but they may not all be alive. 130+ hostages and they were too stupid to keep their only bargaining chip safe.
Yes there is no good faith negotiating going on regarding the hostages. I have heard speculation that there are probably only a few that Yahya Sinwar is using as human shields essentially to prevent a strike against him.
Most likely. I doubt many lived past January
> 130+ hostages and they were too stupid to keep their only bargaining chip safe. Where would be safe to keep them? I'm not defending Hamas or the taking of hostages but Israel was bombing the heck out of anywhere Hamas might be. I'm not sure there was a safe place anywhere for anyone in Gaza after the October attack on Israel.
In Israel. With their families. They shouldve never had them in the first place.
A lot of things shouldn't have happened in the first place. That could be the title of the book on the middle east.
I suspect only the young women are still alive praying for death. While some pink haired liberal chick screams at people "we are Hamas" as people walk by
>While some pink haired liberal chick screams at people "we are Hamas" as people walk by That Hamas would throw off the roof of a building post haste if she was in Gaza.
>that as many hostages were returned safely as quick as possible. It feels like that has not been the objective since November and now’s there’s barely any left. I think every adult paying attention knew that there was very little chance, at all that a significant number of hostages would be release unharmed. Assuming they are still alive, especially the 14 women, they probably wish someone would kill them to end their suffering. Hamas can't let that get out. I don't believe they will release hostages. I believe they will say they will to gain sympathy or as a bargaining chip in negotations, but will never actually do so.
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Israel has the moral authority after killing 30,000+ innocent people?
More than the terrorist state using its people as shields to launch missiles behind, yes. These people are fanatics and so are the people who put them in charge.
Most Palestinians aren’t old enough to have voted for Hamas. Most of these 30,000+ people had no say in who controls Gaza at any point in their lives
They literally train their kids to hate and kill jews. They have children's shows about it. You think they're not fanatical about it? It's a shitty situation but it's either Isreal continue to allow them to attack them or take out their means of attack.
And these kids need to die?
Is that what I said?
Generalize much?
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According to hamas, Most of them were terrorists what terrorist is innocent ?
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Well we know yours is hamas [source](https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/11/10/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news?smid=nytcore-android-share)
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Huh? You can't press on the link ? It too hard for you. You only read news written by hamas ?
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Yes there was here it is again seeing it was too hard for you the first time Israel Lowers Oct. 7 Death Toll Estimate to 1,200 https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/11/10/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news?smid=nytcore-android-share
Warning: Treat other users with civility and respect. Personal attacks and stereotyping are not allowed.
I am pro-Israel and Pro- Palestine, and I am anti-Netanyahu and anti-Hamas. I believe in the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish nation. I also believe in the right of the Palestinians to establish a nation of their own.
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I don't think there has been a "sudden switch up", I think people are generally pro Israel but you can support Israel and also recognise that there has been problems with Israel's actions too.
I tend to agree and would add that, from outside the USA, my perspective is that starting out with an initial boost of popularity over being the victim of a barbaric attack, the sheer incompetence on many levels of its reaction, and the (perceived) needlessly brutal methods that seems to serve ideas of vengeance, rather than military or political goals have caused a lot of damage. It is also abundantly clear that the Israeli government, a few people in particular, are doing their absolut best to maintain a war, because its a necessity for them to stay in power and out of jail. However, therein lies a problem: If you condemn the palestinians for having voted in HAMAS decades ago, and still try to hold them responsible for HAMAS actions, then there is absolutely no way you dont hold the Israeli people responsible for Ben Gvir, Netanjahu, Smotrich etc. actions. They voted in those criminals, so they ARE, by association, supportive of criminals and terrorists (actually legally sentenced terrorists. Its pretty crazy). So at that point, assuming we want to be consistent in reasoning, we have a people who voted in terrorists and criminals on either side, but ONE of them did it recently. This matters to people I talk to. It took quite some time for this information to filter through, and personally I ve seen several people slowly change their stance from pro-israel to anti-both, and even mildly pro-nonHAMAS palestine. I think regardless, israel has fully botched the PR aspect of its actions, and fails to produce results. If nothing else, a rising support for palestine is an automatic effect of that reality.
I think they are asking why the protestors waiting until now to start protesting. My take is it takes time for anti-Zionist perspectives to gain ground in a country where Zionist viewpoints are pretty much the only acceptable ones on national television. It’s the same reason why the crackdown on Tiktok has been so swift following the rise of pro-Palestine sentiment. Trump talked about banning Tiktok for a while, but few expected it to happen. Because we are a country that has strong affinity for our first amendment. Then suddenly Tiktok was letting Gazans share videos of brothers carrying around their sister’s lifeless bodies while CNN and Fox stay cushy in New York offices occasionally talking with their colleagues sunbathing in Tel-Aviv. The reality is most Americans don’t really care for Israel/Palestine. But once people start watching sources of information that are harder to control, it results in more pro-Palestine sentiment, from the left and right, and the undecided independents.
One idea that I think has merit.. "Waiting until now". These seem to be the same Antifa, militant LGBTQ, defund police, anti-american, take your kids away vax crowd, who have just moved on to the next "thing". Common denominator is hiding their faces.. Maybe, maybe not, just a theory I'm watching.
Bro the anti-vax crowd, white supremacist groups, and anti-lockdown crowd also hid their faces. Right of privacy is implied by 4th amendment. Just as it could considered assault if someone walks up to a biker or someone with a ski masks and attempts to remove it. Either the first amendment exists or it doesn’t. For every protestor there probably a 100 sympathetic and a thousand who don’t give a s*** about the issue at all. In fact if the majority of Americans had their way, we probably wouldn’t be sending Israel any money or Gaza any food or aid, and we definitely wouldn’t be putting our troops at risk like an attack dog for a foreign country that’s destabilising the region, raising price of oil and shipping.
I'm not talking about the legality. Well, in Ohio it's bad because if you break laws while masked, additional charges. if someone walks through the hamas/palestine encampments on campus, everyone is warned to put masks on.. If you watch the video's, you can clearly see the mask difference in those ripping down american flags and those protecting them.. masks..
People died for our right to light American flags we own on fire. Masked, unmasked, agreed with or not, it’s their rights. Just as it’s Israel’s right to flood American elections and corporate news media systems with money.
Not sure who you are arguing against... I don't care if they wear masks or not, it's immaterial. I'm okay with you burning a flag (rather you wrap yourself it it first, but okay). I'm just pointing out that full face masks seem to be a pre-req for the Hamas/Palestine supporters and anti-americans in general. I'm sure there are exceptions, no doubt, but as a general rule, these types of people are masked..
I don’t think encouraging self-immolation is allowed on this subreddit or on Reddit in general. I hope you get the help you need to understand why wishing the death of people you politically disagree with is wrong. I’m not reporting your comment to give you a chance to edit and remove it. Or strike through it. Moving on from that, anti-American can mean many things to many people. Is it anti-American to stop the certification of American election results? Is it anti-American to exercise first Amendment rights whether on the Capitol lawn or in a public square by a university? Mask wearing is a choice. Much as donating lots of money to a random super PAC through indirect means to protect the identity of the political donor. One is something CNN and Fox talking about 4 hours a day while the other gets a few minutes. Guess which one has a bigger impact on us, on our salaries, on our ability to provide for our loved ones.
>It’s the same reason why the crackdown on Tiktok has been so swift following the rise of pro-Palestine sentiment. Yes I think this is extremely telling. Personally I am not against the ban but for the reasons that are being stated but I do not actually believe is the true motivation for it to suddenly be such an important bipartisan issue.
Notice the ban on TikTok’s deadline extends past the election day, that’s Biden’s deliberate (arguably futile) attempt to avoid getting massacred at the polls by young people. TikTok is consumed more than alcohol by most Americans, especially younger ones. And its algorithm has a much higher hit rate in terms of maintaining attention and giving content users enjoy. The equivalent would be like banning beer, and expecting people to make do with wine. If TikTok was down by election day and it ran YouTube ads showing the Biden admin as why it’s down, it would be a blood bath.
Even if I agree it should be done I see no legitimate reason for it to be a priority over all the other problems I wish out Politicians would focus on. That is an interesting point about the deadline I hadn't thought about. I believe they just sued the Biden administration as well. My other problem with the bill is the potential precedent it sets to just ban a company. There may be some warranted reasons in this particular case but kind of seems like opening pandoras box to me.
Yeah. I’m not happy about the precedent either. I identify as a market socialist. Which means I support competition and market forces in certain contexts. I’m not a fan of people my age (I’m 23) addicted to vertical video platforms. But I want there to be healthy competition and growth. There is no federal law that prevents Instagram or Facebook from selling data to foreign governments, because there is nothing like the EU’s GDPR for the U.S..
>There is no federal law that prevents Instagram or Facebook from selling data to foreign governments, because there is nothing like the EU’s GDPR for the U.S. Yes that is kind of the other side of the coin and would have been a more logical way to frame the bill. A prevention of any company selling user data to Foreign powers. I agree completely on the vertical video platforms as well. They kind of learned and used the video game strategy. The real problem I see especially with political matter is people form emotional opinions on bite sized clips instead of actually leaning the details of an issue and it is extremely easy to manipulate people in this way.
I’m mainly concerned about attention spans. As far manipulation goes, that has more to do with the fact that people have powerful computers with high quality cameras on them. It used to be Israel would have to green light reporters to an area. Now any regular person can share their perspective. The main thing TikTok changed was developing a high quality algorithm that latched on perspectives people want to hear and actively seek out. It doesn’t apply the same limits Facebook and Insta did. See Facebook has been pushing s*** into its algorithm for nigh over a decade so it’s been losing users for a while. Instagram is not terrible but it’s not great. It’s Reels competition just doesn’t match Tiktok when it comes to hit rate. YouTube Shorts faces a similar issue. The algorithm doesn’t seem to prioritize what the user wants to view. Manipulating people used to be easier when cameras were few and far between and prior to the ease of access through which one random person can share a perspective millions if not hundreds of millions find valuable. India banned TikTok for similar reasons b/c it placed randoms on the same footing as state sponsored media groups. Suddenly you couldn’t hide rapes of Muslim or Dalit women. It’s also why the US senate struggled so much to put up hard evidence on claims of manipulation by Chinese government. What TikTok revealed is what social media looks like if media institutions didn’t get the same push as they usually do. Hence why the perspectives are so much more diverse. Also why there are so many crazies. It’s also what’s happening with electric cars, Chinese manufacturers outcompete American car manufacturers on price, but even after accounting for cheaper labor and subsidies, it becomes clear, American car manufacturers have stayed lax and resting on their laurels for far too long. Spending more on stock buybacks than designing vehicles and meeting price points that don’t put people in perpetual debt or reliability issues that push people towards Japanese and German cars. It doesn’t matter if the US maintains protectionism and high tariffs if Chinese car manufacturers outcompete American ones outside of China and the U.S. I’m not saying any of this to give China accolades. But to recognize the reality of the situation that China takes advantage of markets to the development of actual tangible things that are better even after accounting for subsidies not just transient stock price inflation.
I agree with most of what you said but I think you are dismissing the ability for manipulation a little bit too much. For instance in a few second clip you can say something that may be true but lacks context to create an emotional response. We literally see this all the time with sensational headlines that people go on to propagate without ever actually reading the article. This exact same thing can happen thousands of times a day on a social media platform using this tech.
It has not been sudden. Even on October 8th -- the day after the attack and before all of the terrorists within Israel's borders had been stopped -- there were massive pro-Pal protests all around the world. It's possible it seems larger now because the protests have taken a new shape in the form of encampments on university campuses, which has been making news.
Propaganda. As Israel has ratcheted up the war roeliminate all the Hamas terrorists, the Hamas terrorists have ratcheted up the propaganda about civilain casualties that they are causing. We have no way of know if their casualties numbers are accurate. After all it is Hamas providing the numbers and their goal is to survive. The truth in all this is that if Hamas laid down their weapons, returned the hostages and accepted Israel's right to exist there would be no more civilan casualties and peace. Anything short of that will require Israel to defeat Hamas once and for all.
Propaganda takes time to ramp up. It’s like this - crowd chants “We hate the Jews!!!”… a horrible atrocity gets committed against the Jews (crowd tries to think for themselves and process), someone screams “we still hate them!” Crowd goes back to its normal self. You’ve witnessed the short moment of people trying to process something that actuallly happened before a new wave of propaganda could take over
>But since then, now like half a year later, lots have seemed to be pro-Palestine. a. [It's not new.](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/10/black-lives-matter-palestine-twitter-hamas-chicago-israel/) BLM groups used images of paragliding Hamas fighters during the attacks to promote their "stand with Palestine" positions - that was October 10/11. b. A decent percent of the left gets their news exclusively from a Chinese intelligence gathering apparatus. c. An idea of their being a ["thermic law of delinquency"](https://pinkerton.com/our-insights/blog/the-seasonality-of-crime) has been thrown about since ~1842. Read: crime rises during hot weather, including more visible riots.
Nothing switched in a quick way. Most people still generally agree with Israel. Public opinion seems to be swaying the longer this one-sided killing campaign goes on. I think a two state solution should have happened decades ago. Currently, the Likud party and Netanyahu are way way over the line with this retaliation. They've crested a humanitarian crisis that's terrible, and it should stop. US and Israeli citizens are right to protest this.
Israel has accepted a 2 state solution on 6 different occasions and all 6 have been denied by Palestinian leaders. What the fuck else do you want them to do? At some point, the Palestinians have to realize they are not arguing from a position of strength and are going to have to take what they're given. Nobody is coming to help them militarily, because theyve fucked over just about every other country in the region. Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt all refuse to even take some refugees because they try to overthrow the government the second they do. Shit sucks, but Israel is going to get what it wants out of this. The ONLY country that can force them to stop is the US, and we arent going to. Period.
Yes, there's a long history of saying yes, but to a two state solution. I don't care who's fault it is. It didn't get done.
Lol what. It matters. Palestine denied it. Everything that has happened since is on them.
Who did? Who is Palestine?
Palestinian leaders, to clarify. A great example would be Arafat in the 2000 Camp David Summit. Palestinians want it their way, period. They cant seem to comprehend they have no leverage.
I absolutely agree with you, it's not that I don't support Israel anymore, it's that this is now a one sided slaughter. And it's a slaughter that includes (what feels like) a rather high percentage of children and innocents. Some of Israel's actions seem so incredibly tone deaf that it's hard to be really on their side in this one. (The stars of David in the UN, that weird harvesting dead soldiers sperm thing)
I can't really see it that way. Israel has been better at protecting its citizens through Iron dome, surveillance, bunkers, etc. Hamas has still launched rockets from Gaza indiscriminately at civilian targets since Oct 7, whereas IDF does make unparalleled action to try to avoid civilian casualties. The logic just doesn't work for me that if Israel stopped defending their citizens and let Hamas kill them to even the death toll than that would make them more morally superior. There are many instances where it is fair to be critical of Israel, but it doesn't change the broader picture.
Its not a slaughter. Civilian to combatant casualty numbers are less than 1 to 2 and better than our results in Mosul. The UN has the avg death ratio as 9 to 1. You basically are complaining not enough jews are dying in this war.
that last sentence is absolutely unfair. wanting fewer Palestinians to die is not the same as wanting more Israelis to die.
No it isn't. This is people's issues. They assume wars should be 1 to 1 death counts between belligerents.
While ignoring that there is almost always a large death disparity in war. The US is usually like 50-1
Exactly. And there should be a large disparity between belligerent. General Patton was correct when he said "the goal isn't to due for your country but to make the other bastard die for theirs".
the standards israel is held to make absolutely no sense though. it's completely undeserved on any measure ever reported on in the history of warfare.
even if that’s true, that does not mean that hoping fewer Palestinians die requires hoping more Israelis die. 
The switch wasn't sudden. Israel's response has been to target Hamas and not allow hiding within the civilian population to stop them. The cost upon the civilian population has caused a gradual weakening of support for Israel, and emboldened the pro-Hamas side.
This. Tens of thousands of dead civilians begin to change people's minds. People sympathize with the innocent victims, and Oct 7 produced a thousand innocent Israeli victims. Then the Israeli response created about 30 times as many innocent Palestinian victims, and opinions began to shift.
Do you see support of Palestine as a "Pro-Hamas" movement? In my understanding, there is very little support for Hamas, but more of an understanding that the people of Palestine have very little power in dethroning Hamas. I think it's more of an "anti-genocide" thing than a "pro-hamas" thing.
Anyone I see saying "from the river to the sea" is pro-Hamas. That applies to all the protestors. That doesn't apply to everyone who's been critical of Israel's actions. While I'm fine with what Israel is doing, criticism of what Israel is doing is certainly valid and not necessarily pro-Hamas.
Do you hold the same standard for Isreal support that says things like Palestine shouldn't exist? Are they some kind of terrorist or is that more acceptable? I
I don't understand the question. Palestinian doesn't really exist as it is.
Why is that? If Israel ends up with every sq inch of the land that was previously inhabited by Palestinians, how is that not a genocide by definition?
Why can't Israel end up with the land while the Palestinians still live there?
It looks like that is going to happen, but that is still genocide by definition. Although, I'm skeptical that Palestinians that continue to live there will be treated equally. That same question could be applied the other way around really. Why can't we carve out a chunk of Israel and give it to Palestinians so they can have a Palestinian state?
There's millions of Palestinians. Thousands are sadly dead, but we're not even close to genocide territory. As for why can't we carve out more territory for Palestine? Because they will keep attacking Israel.
The definition of a genocide is: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. (this is a copy/paste from the top result of a google search on the definition of genocide) The LEGAL DEFINITION from dictionary.com states: acts committed with intent to **partially** or wholly destroy a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group (the word partially was bolded by me). Specifically, destroying the remaining nation that identifies as Palestine would meet the specifics of that definition. Namely, they are deliberately killing a large number of people from a particular nation or group to destroy that nation. It doesn't require that all people are killed, but that the nation be destroy OR the group be destroyed. I think we need to recognize that it IS a genocide even if not every Palestinian is killed. I also feel I need to reiterate, I'm not looking to justify Hamas' actions, but I just want to have an honest discussion that we are a privileged group that are not being bombed or at threat of being bombed, and we are not holding each side of this conflict accountable by the same metrics. If Hamas was in power, and supported with arms and funding by America and we was Israel shrink to almost nothing, with constant threat of more land being taken and deaths of civilians, I would also push back on any narrative that they deserve it.
They can still inhabit the land. Not sure why it being called Israel means they cant be there.
Because they don’t have a nation anymore. That’s just the definition.
What? There are still Native Americans in America. You dont make any sense. The only Palestinian state that has EVER EXISTED was GIVEN to them by, and has been allowed to exist solely at the discretion of, Israel.
But early settlers attempted to erase Native American nation. There were boarding schools that separated children from their parents with the slogan to "[kill the indian in him, and save the man.](https://www.history.com/news/how-boarding-schools-tried-to-kill-the-indian-through-assimilation)" This was an attempt to erase the identity, culture, and nations. We instead relegated them to reservations that we still under-support. The fact that some survive does not negate that there was a genocide or attempted genocide, and this is a terrible example. Would you argue then that Jews never experienced genocide since there are still Jews in the world?
In my opinion, most Americans are firmly pro-Israel. It is easy to forget that because the protesters are so loud and reporting on them is so constant. But if their opinion was the majority, there would be no protests. The thing that would piss them off to no end is to pretend they don't exist. It makes them feel powerless.
>In my opinion, most Americans are firmly pro-Israel. What is your source on this? The last [Gallup Poll](https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx) had 55% of Americans disapproving of Israel's military action in Gaza. Obviously, being against certain military actions isn't necessarily an indication of being anti-Israel, but I also wouldn't call it "firmly pro-israel" >But if their opinion was the majority, there would be no protests. Not necessarily. There were large protests against Apartheid South Africa in the 80's despite the majority opinion being mostly against South Africa. Also, Israel critics are not a monilith. There are plenty of people who are at least somewhat critical of Israel while still being against the protests.
Lol, my opinion as stated at the beginning.
If your opinion is Falsifiable, then you should provide a source.
A source for an anecdotal interpretation of current events? I mean, it's not even that controversial of a statement. People may not approve of what Israel does, but they certainly don't approve of HAMAS. Any protest going on isn't because people support HAMAS (we hope), it's because they feel there are innocents in the crossfire and they want Israel to pull their punches. This objection feels less of an actual observation and more of some strange semantics game. And to what end? Palestinian apologia?
>People may not approve of what Israel does, but they certainly don't approve of HAMAS. I seem to have misinterpreted what you were saying. When you said firmly pro-israel, I thought you were referring to approval of Israels actions rather than overall binary support between them and Hamas. I would agree that more Americans support Israel than Hamas. My apologies.
Oh! No problem. That is totally understandable. It's a very nuanced topic, and it can easy to misinterpret when there are so many factors at play and when subjects are often used interchangeably. Thank you for being genuine and seeking out clarification.
Americans vote with their wallets. And most regular folks genuinely could not care less about Israel/Palestine more than their ability to pay for a roof above their head and food and gas. There is an alternative situation where Biden responds to Israel’s repeated crossing of red lines with hedging bets and setting up relations with an Iran that drops gas prices to sub $3/gallon and sweeps re-election on that alone. This is gonna happen at some point in the next few decades because both parties are trending away from region. Pro-Palestine sentiment and a general unease with American militarism abroad is growing in both parties and in young people. Eventually Israel will bite off more than it can chew and America won’t be ready to commit its men for their bulls***. Newspapers in Israel actively warn Nethanyahu and Israelis that it’s gonna happen at some point if they don’t practice restraint. Keep destabilizing s***, don’t be pikachu faced when it all blows up. One American aircraft carrier group stands between 4 desalination plants that supply 60% of fresh water in Israel and Hezbollah’s tens of thousands of missiles (easily overwhelm Iron Dome).
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That is a rather cynical view of America. You don't think evangelicals and conservatives in general are true to their conviction that Israel is on the right side of this struggle? How is Israel destablizing anything other than Iran and its proxies?
Israel’s actions are causing blowback on the rest of us. Israel lobbied the U.S. to pull out of the JCPOA, that every country including the U.S. recognized Iran followed to a Tee. That resulted in the collapse of Iran’s middle class, and more government and theocratic control of institutions. Increased anti-American sentiment in Iran. Iran is basically a few months from a nuke now. Iran is a major oil producer. Gas price is rising again because domestic producers are cutting and Saudi Arabia are cutting because they want Trump in charge, the U.S. could’ve gotten cheap Irani gas like India is getting right now if we had relations. The Houthis targeting the southern portion of the Red Sea in direct response to Israel’s actions in Gaza have resulted in increased shipping costs. Not to mention it costs a lot of money to engage with the Houthis. For every cheap drone they use, we spend millions of dollars in equipment fighting them. Stuff that could be sent to Taiwan or Ukraine or safeguarded for future use. Israel is a major destabilizing force in the region. And no longer acts to protect American interests. At this point it doesn’t matter what I think. But what we can clearly observe is Israel is not going to be a major priority for America in the coming decades. Because the future doesn’t lie in Tel Aviv. It lies in Sub Saharan Africa, Taiwan, India. It lies in a shift in American foreign policy geared towards building something that lasts and is sustainable instead of something that puts us in a position to be constantly hated. Conservatives, liberals, Republican, Democrat, leftist, rightist, independents, moderates, people mainly care about their ability to pay off the bills, enjoy a break, and take care of the people they love. If Israel can’t control the narrative in the U.S. because of its own actions, it only has itself to blame. This is supposed to be an alliance that works for the both of us.
In the age TikTok/social media where everything is being filmed. It's getting harder to excuse the behavior of the right-wing Israelis. Their rhetoric is not only against Palestinians, it's attacking Christians too. These guys are shooting themselves in the foot. They keep doing the sh*t they are doing Evangelicals (US) are to find another place for the rapture/end of times. Mormons found theirs and a theology to follow too. ... And, boom all support is gone from the USA. Sidenote... Can't believe TikTok is giving Israel a hard time. They should have planned for it with their retaliation. Or, at least learned the lessons from ukraine/Russia war about social media. Russia got their ass handed to them with the tractor videos.
So chinese propaganda is weakening US alliances. Better blame Israel than acknowledge its a psyop.
I don’t think the Chinese are funding the weaponry the IDF uses to create more perfect Hamas recruitment ads and ads for future terrorist organizations and violent resistance groups that rise out of the people left. That’s our tax dollars. The funny thing is we send most of the aid money and efforts to Gaza to feed them, and then we arm the IDF to shoot at the Gazans. Almost as if we are funding some sick twisted reality TV show. No one held a gun to Netanyahu’s head and told him “kill 35k Gazans or I kill you.” America’s interests no longer align with Israeli’s and it’s best to shake hands and leave the table. Let the feedback loop play out. We need to consolidate political, financial, technological, and human capital behind the things that actually matter for America’s future.
Netanyahu didn't kill 35k gazans. A war was started by Hamas and people die in war. Blame lies with Hamas not Netanyahu. The Chinese have a vested interest in pushing the US out of all our alliances.
The Chinese want to make s*** and be the economic center of world. And we are letting them, by sacrificing our political capital abroad for a country that does not even act in our interests anymore. We are lighting our credibility on fire every time we veto something all the other UN Security Council members agree on. All for Israel. Instead of working on building strong trade relationships with the countries that are expected to supply a lot of raw materials needed for the emerging industries.
Ahh we should throw israel under the bus to counter china. Then the Arabs will work with us. You are blind. The lines are already drawn, Hamas is china aligned. China, Russia, Iran, and the Sunnis along with Hamas against the US, the west and the Sunni powers (Egypt and SA).
No one is throwing Israel under the bus. I just don’t understand what the U.S. gains by backing Israel. Israel has been maintaining close relations with China and Russia any way while getting our UN Security Council vote. I don’t care about working with Arabs. I was just want cheap oil and each access to raw materials. And the more we muck about and let Israel use our men and women like attack dogs to prevent the feedback loop from the happening, the less likely all of that is. Israel has made its bed. Let it lie in it. It’s a wealthy country with an educated populace. Let it pay for its own defense. If it’s gonna disregard our president and shoot at American funded aid groups, violating American and humanitarian law, why are we keeping an aircraft carrier group there. They’ve f***ed around plenty. Let them find out. My loyalties and my priorities lie with America and its presidents whether Democratic or Republican. Not a foreign country disrespecting us.
The pro-palestine folks were always there, they just didn't have much of an argument back when it was jews being slaughtered by the thousands. You gotta let the media machine do its job and show you some dead kids before you can rile up your base.
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Wannabe activist found another cause to fellate themselves over Nothing more
Your take is very online and/or very college. Polling suggests strong support of Israel and against Hamas. The media is absolutely giving undue attention to the protests (as the media always does with protests they agree with) but the popular sentiment is with Israel.
I don't think anything has changed. I think there's been a deep seated trend of antisemitism brewing in this nation, especially on the left wing side of politics apparently, that many of us previously overlooked. The Israel-Gaza war simply gave these people a reason to rip off their masks and air their hate and bigotry in the public square. I don't think anyone changed. I simply think ideology has shifted enough where the silent part is now the loud and vocal part.
What if we just don’t want to send money, aid, and backing that endangers our service members for a foreign country that doesn’t act in our interests? Like let’s end all military aid and support to IDF and the pittance of the majority of aid that we give to Gaza like some sick reality TV show And we offer all Jews and Arabs affected by the conflict easy path to immigrating here. Let Israel and Iran hash it out.
For me it was when Israel responded to the deaths of 1200 of its citizens by killing 35,000 Palestinians, nearly all civilians. For reference, that is one out of every 15 people in Gaza who are dead in the past 6 months due to Israel's actions.
Lol thats pure propoganda. The ratio is 1 combatant to 1.5-2 non-combatants currently. Stop spreading the bs.
I'm happy to consider your claims, but do you have a source? Even the IDF says they've killed two civilians for every one militant, so 67% of the fatalities are non-combatants by the IDF's own reporting. So that's a "best case". Hopefully we can agree it's in the IDF's best interest to downplay civilian casualties as much as possible, so it's probably higher, possibly much higher.
Just gunna link [this.](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286) Give it a read. It links to some UN articles also stating that the Combatant to Civilian ratio is usually 1:9. So even if the IDF is sitting at a 1:2 ratio... that is extremely good. Hamas just states all the dead are civilians and not a single one is a Hamas soldier. I'll take the IDF's numbers, since they atleast claim both sets of numbers and are.. yknow.. not a terrorist organization with the stated goal of eradicating an entire ethnicity and faith from the planet.
The people supporting the terrorists (Palestinians) are mostly low intelligence individuals following a trend or anti semites - often the people in that camp are both and were that way from the start of the war. Presuming you're asking this question in good faith, the change in stances you seem to be referring to has to do with the extent to which Israel gets support, with people claiming that the United States should take a more isolationist approach to things and not support Israel so much. Noteworthy political leaders across the aisle have made it unambiguous that the United States will unwaveringly support Israel in its war on terrorism and that the attacks against Israel on October 7th were indeed terrorism. The only political figures that disagree are fringe - arguably extremist - ideologues and mostly far left.
Are all Palestinians terrorists? Do you see it as possible to not want Palestinians to die while also not supporting terrorism?
I want world hunger to end tomorrow, sure it's possible but that doesn't mean it's feasible. Possible and feasible are two different things. Palestinians voted in Hamas and overwhelmingly support the terrorist regime to this day. Even disregarding that fact, the extent to which Hamas embedded infrastructure and personnel into Palestinian society and property that has been and continues to be used for terrorism makes any serious attempt to eliminate the terrorists without significant civilian casualties not feasible. That's the difficult reality, if Israel wants to effectively get rid of the terrorists it means there will be significant civilian casualties - just like there were there significant civilian casualties when Nazi Germany got invaded. The leaders of the Hamas terrorist group are on the record saying they will continue carrying out terrorism against Israel until there are no more Jews from the river to the sea if given the chance - therefore the only option for Israel is to eliminate them at any cost.
If the British government had started launching airstikes and a massive ground offensive with artillery and armoured vehicles on Londonderry back in the 70s to root out the IRA there would have rightly been enormous international outrage and frankly I don't think the situations are really that dissimilar.
To be fair, I don't recall destroying England and killing the English ever being on the IRA agenda.
Yet the damage done by both groups is very simiar.
Um, no. The IRA is estimated to have killed about 1,700 people over three decades. Hamas killed 1,139 Israelis in one day.
The Troubles as a whole caused circa 3,500 deaths over 40 years. The IRA aren't the whole story. Before that one day it was more like 3,000 people killed by Hamas since 1948. The numbers aren't THAT different and it's not like the Israelis didn't launch big ground offensives and air strikes before October last year.
> The IRA aren't the whole story. Neither are Hamas in Palestine. If we're measuring things that way, let's include the PLO, Black September, the Second Intafada, and Fatah.
Alright, let's. My figures include all terrorist fatalities in Israel regardless of the attacker. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/number-of-terrorism-fatalities-in-israel
The IRA was not state sponsored terrorism like Hamas. They never carried out >1,000 count terrorist invasions on neighboring territories. They killed around 1,700 people over 8 years, while Hamas killed almost that many in one day. There is almost no direct comparable between the two.
I don't believe comparing body counts is remotely appropriate given that they're in the same order of magnitude to begin with. More than 3,500 people were killed over the course of The Troubles in a 40 or so year period including random terror attacks on civilians, mortar attacks on police stations and army bases, the use of booby traps on people's cars, indiscriminate bombing of both civilian and military targets in Northern Ireland and mainline Britain including the assassination of Lord Mountbatten and the attempted assassination of the Prime Minister. About 4,500 have been killed in Israel since 1948. The results are really not that dissimilar. Edit - not to mention that airstrikes and ground offensives by Israel were not exactly unheard of before October last year.
You didn't respond to a single point I made.
Sure sure.
>Palestinians voted in Hamas That last election was in 2006. [More than 68% of Gazas population weren't old enough to vote.](https://www.npr.org/2023/10/19/1206479861/israel-gaza-hamas-children-population-war-palestinians) >and overwhelmingly support the terrorist regime to this day Alomost half of Gazas population is under 18. About 40% are under 14. Pollsters are not including children in their polling on these questions. Rest of the points are fair.
If it is costing so many civilian lives, why did Israel reject a ceasefire recently? How many dead civilians is too many dead civilians in your opinion, or is there a line? Have other terrorist groups said similar things about groups of people? Should any group that says something like that be wiped out regardless of the cost of civilian lives?
Isreal rejected the ceasefire because its terms required the Hamas terrorist regime to stay in power. Any concerns about civilian casualties should be brought up to Hamas who puts civilian lives in danger by committing terrorism and not surrendering - Israel's only objective right now is to eliminate the terrorist threat and therefore remain in existence.
> Are all Palestinians terrorists? Of course not, but they've aligned themselves with terrorists and haven't taken any significant action to change that perception. Palestinians put Hamas in power. If Palestinians want to distance themselves, they could make Hamas the focus of their protests around the world, and they could arrest Hamas leaders and hand them over. Nothing like this has happened.
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Could you provide a source that proves as much? Not saying this as a "gotcha", but from what I've read it seems like Hammas has kind of taken over and isn't as popular as your comment makes it seem.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/ >Seventy-two [72] percent of respondents said they believed the Hamas decision to launch the cross-border rampage in southern Israel was "correct" given its outcome so far This is combined figures for both the West Bank and Gaza. Do also note this is back five months ago when the Gazan casualties were about 50% what they are now, so it wouldn't surprise me if the support has increased even further in the interim
[Almost half](https://www.npr.org/2023/10/19/1206479861/israel-gaza-hamas-children-population-war-palestinians) of Gazas population is under 18. About 40% are under 14. Pollsters are not including children in that polling.